A koan for all guru-based faiths

Here's something about gurus and disciples that I find intriguing. I guess you could call it a koan of sorts, because whatever conclusion you come to about it won't make sense rationally.

Which could well be the correct conclusion: that the whole guru bhakti system is so full of contradictions, it deserves jettisoning.

But this is just a possibility, one of many. I'm asking questions, not supplying answers.

I'll describe this koan using specifics from the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) branch of Sant Mat. However, the basic questions are applicable to just about every guru-based faith, especially those that emphasize devotion to a spiritual teacher.

Who often is believed to be a God-realized being. This is the case with RSSB. The guru is viewed as God in human form, an incarnation of the highest divinity similar to how Jesus is considered in Christianity.

The guru who initiated me in 1971 was Charan Singh. He died in 1990. Before his death Charan Singh appointed a successor, Gurinder Singh, who similarly had been initiated by him.

Charan Singh would give talks (or satsangs) to thousands of people. He'd sit on a high podium. Devotees would gaze spellbound at him, hoping to catch a glance (darshan).

The devotional attitude of Sant Mat initiates essentially is, "The guru is everything; I am nothing." We can imagine Gurinder Singh sitting in the audience while Charan Singh was alive thinking just that. He is everything; I am nothing.

Yet there came a day when Gurinder Singh found himself on the same podium, having been elevated to the status of guru. So now all the initiates are looking at him, thinking "The guru is everything; I am nothing."

But wait! How did Gurinder Singh go from being nothing to everything? At what point did this happen? Was it sudden or gradual? Did this transformation depend on the formal conferring of guru status, or did it occur in some other fashion?

And a more basic question: Did the change from nothing to everything even happen?

Do you see what I'm getting at? These are intriguing questions that I never gave much thought to back when I was one of those true believing initiates trying to be as nothing-ish as possible while I was in the presence of the guru.

I didn't spend much time musing on the fact that the guru once was a disciple, just like me. In the Sant Mat tradition a disciple is the humble servant of the guru. Yet what changes when a disciple becomes the guru?

Overnight, the servant becomes a master (in fact, this is what the RSSB gurus are called in English, Master). Even stranger, gurus often say that they are still nothing compared to their own guru, who is everything to them.

Yet that guru (Sawan Singh, for Charan Singh) generally has his own guru. And so it goes. So somehow all the gurus are both nothing and everything.

However, the disciples are just nothing. Unless they become a guru, then they're everything.

It's pretty confusing. Well, that's to be expected when you mix hierarchy (guru on top, disciple below) with mysticism (all are One).

The supposed nothing to everything transformations strike me now as a bit of organizational sleight of hand, a way of inculcating obedient submission among the millions of RSSB initiates. Without it, you're left with something much more akin to Buddhism than Sant Mat.

A spiritual teacher who isn't higher or lower than his students.

Now, I'm not saying this is the answer to my koan. Like I said, I don't know what the answer is, or even if there is one. I just find it intriguing to ask:

When someone is nothing, how does he become everything while remaining nothing?

Comments

[Genn]

The oneness permeates the all creation. Sincere efforts are required to annihilate this very ego....until then the door is open to all conjectures and speculations. Blind faith it doesn't lead us anywhere but practice is the core in whatever we intend to achieve.

[Tucson Bob]

Glenn,
I don't think the ego can be annihilated by anyone. Strident efforts to defeat/subdue it just reinforce it. It just needs to be seen for what it is, an accumulation of ideas, memories, mnemonic impressions, dreamstuff. When one sees what really is, the ego naturally subsides to a less dominant position. If the ego is illusory, find out who is left to practice. Is there really any 'who'? Without the ego is there anywhere to go? What would be there that isn't here? Is there anywhere but here? Remember, no matter where you go, there you are. Only the ego needs practice, rules, effort, a goal to get to. Quit feeding it. Others are probably tired of me saying the same old thing, but for me it's true...We already are that which is sought.

These are just thoughts in response to what you said, and are not intended as an attack or criticism.

[william]

“When someone is nothing, how does he become everything while remaining nothing?”

Whenever we try to explain reality we always seem to end up with a paradox. No matter what I state here someone can come along and point out inaccuracies. That is the reality of words and ideas and our innocence of reality.

From my point of view and please note words also fail me here but when a follower of a guru awakens to the reality that they are that oneness having one majestic expression for IT’s self as twoness then I suspect that they may the right to call themselves guru.

We humans appear to have some kind of inner desire to play guru long before we have arrived at a guru status. I suspect that desire is very ego centered based in a need for attention or power or love or whatever. It is nice to be the king (guru).

I think there is a very “long” space-time journey ahead even for a guru as we become like gods creating planets galaxies etc. I suspect but don’t know but it is the god’s that do all the creating/manifestation/expressing and the Godhead is silent but the source of all vitality. Realizing of course that these god’s are in reality the source as the source is absolute.

I like to say that the all entities are an aspect of this source but even that fails to understand we are indeed that that is; we can be no other than isness. How could we be anything but this isness because isness is infinite everything, all and all, and the absolute?

To me at least it appears to be simple logic if God is all and all then what or who can be outside that all and all. Comparing God to an artistic painter misses the point and puts God into human thinking of being separate as the spirits book does.

Applying effort to subdue one’s ego is like trying to run away from your shadow on a hot sunny day. The more effort you apply the more frustrated you get. Been there done that.

[Tucson Bob]

If one knows that what is observed has no existence apart from the observer and that the observer has no existence apart from the observed, one can then see that nothing is everything and that master and disciple are therefore united.

[william]

the more we try to put reality into words the more confusing it gets.

how about this?

ONENESS IS:

but lets be honest we want the details. thats the drama. the play is in the details.

if it was not meant to be so it would not be. if we did not need these experiences we would not have them.

as emmanual stated everything is perfectly imperfect.

[tao]

William,

I very much disagree with your "emmanual"... whoever that may be.

On one level, this is just semantics.

But if you wish to be more accurate, to say "pefectly imperfect" is to say that ALL (or Totality) is fundamentally IMPERFECT. That cannot be so. So perhaps maybe this "emmanual" meant to say 'imperfectly perfect'? That would be a bit more accurate, but still not completely accurate.

Totality, or the Absolute, ultimately must and can only be absolutely perfect. But within that absolute perfection of Totality, is the seeming appearance of "imperfection". This is but an appearance of duality due to misapprehension. Even chaos is ultimately perfect. Therfore, so-called "imperfection" is really only just an appearance in/of duality. The idea of imperfection is only an appearance, a misapprehension of reality.

[Tucson Bob]

William,

You said: "ONENESS IS:
but lets be honest we want the details."

TB's response: How about..there are no details that could be known by anyone as its object.

You said: "if it was not meant to be so it would not be. if we did not need these experiences we would not have them.

TB's response: How about..Maybe 'Oneness' has no intention for anything to be a certain way and is incapable of having that intention?

Why, if this were true, would 'Oneness" require any particular experiences or have any particular purpose?

You see, to me the implication of what you were saying is based on the concept of a God or Creator that has a plan, that oversees or guides its creation. Do we control our dreams? Maybe the Dreamer doesn't/can't control its dream? Can it separate itself in such a way that it sees its seeing and hears its hearing and thereby contros those faculties? Maybe that would be impossible?

Perhaps Life is just lived as a dream and even It doesn't know where it is going.

Just throwing out what comes to mind, not meant to diminish or criticize what you said.

[Derek Brownlee]

Do nothing, time is too precious to waste.
--Buddha

When we do nothing, are nothing, then we find the infinite, hidden in the zero point of the present.

Zero = infinity, a funny formula.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

It is generally said by the Master that as far as the body of the disciple and master are concerned they do not go beyound the creamation ground. But the relationship built during lifetime, between radiant form of the Master and the disciple goes beyond it.

True love for the physical body of the master develops only when one is able to see something inside. I have living experience of my mother and father who have achieved in meditation.

Experiene is non-tranferable.

[tao]

Rakesh,

"master", "radiant form", "meditation", etc etc etc ...Dream on...

[Genn]

The tangible reality of ours it looks very flexible and therefore mesurable apparently only according to our state of conscienceness. The yardstick expand or shrinks depending on the angle on which the observer positions himself. This very intellect seems to adapt willingly to the circumstances when the individual emotions vibrates positively. Todays happiness transmutes in tomorrow sorrows and so on....
How can we affirm the truth when the intellect is so poorly endowed ?

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear Tao,

I am no authority on sant Mat. But I can share my real time experience. My father was an ardent follower of RSSB faith sitting on meditation regularly & punctually. He was not a very soft spoken person in his life. Not a very impressive in human relations.

But he left this world at his will. The day he was supposed to leave the body. He was quite hale and hearty. He asked my mother to spread a bed sheet on the floor and switch on master's satsang on audio tape. After 20 minutes, he softly said Radhasoami and left the body. Soon my mother announced that he was no more. He normally used to say that meditation is nothing but rehearsal for the last day.

It is the truth. It is all up to you to beleive it or not........................ I repeat Experience is non tranferable.

I would love to read your good or bad experience in spiritual endevours...........

[Brian]

Rakesh, there are so many "miracle" stories. So many. In every religion, every faith. Have you ever read "Autobiography of a Yogi"?

It was one of the first mystic/spiritual books I came across back in the late '60s. It's filled with miraculous stories, many more than are in the Sant Mat literature.

Does this mean that Yogananda's Kriya Yoga is a higher path than Sant Mat? Is the Self Realization Fellowship greater than Radha Soami Satsang Beas because "miracle" experiences are more common in the former than the latter?

It's natural for devotees of a particular faith to consider that their chosen path or religion is the highest. But I don't think reality has a "higher" or "lower." Those are human terms, not part of reality.

[Tucson Bob]

Searching for the self that can't be found:

Everything cognized is the mind and what is called mind is the cognizing of everything. The universe perceived by the senses is the objective aspect of mind which has no other objective aspect at all. Seeing, hearing, feeling is Reality which has no source that can be known as an object. It is the unknowable, inconceivable, formless, attributeless awareness which is no thing that can be found. It will never be known by anyone. A sage might say, "I am that and I am nothing at all." knowing that the 'nothing' can never know itself except as 'that'.

Try to imagine an infinite sky of awareness/consciousness. Nothing else is there, no phenomena, forms, ideas, colors or sensorially perceived objects, neither light nor dark. This awareness extends everywhere limitlessly which really is nowhere because there are no reference points. How could this awareness see itself or know itself without making an object of itself?

Well, it did and that is the universe we find ourselves in, forever searching for the self that can't be found.

Merry go, merry go, merry go 'round.

[John C]

Ive been to a few of Gurinder Singhs satsangs and in the question and answer sessions he has always struck me as the type of person who absolutely hates the idea of Guru Bhakti.

Often ppl say to him "Baba Ji you are God incarnate" or make similar such comments and he always retorts with "How do you know" or "Prove it".

two of his famous words are "logical conclussion" that we have to reason with ourselves with what the truth is.

To me anyways Guru means teacher and he is teaching us a way to get back to lord...he always says "there are many roads we can take and this is just our way"

He always gives out to indian parents who try and shove Sant mat down their childrens throats saying that we have no right to behave in such a way when, as supposed disciples ourselves dont follow the principles of sant mat ourselves...So if we cant

Now I am not initiated as I do have my own doubts but I would rather have some1 tell me to make up my own mind on things rather than have religions shove down my truth the thought "your going to hell because you dont follow our religion properly"

I enjoy your posts Brian ass it gives me the other side of the coin perspective.

I personally agree that ppl put too much into Guru Bhakti and its something I refuse to do. On the other hand if a true guru is supposed to be an example on how we should live our lives on this plane of existance then isnt that something we should try to become ourselves by following the teachings he distrubutes.

[genn]

Phrases-makers thats all what what we are and trying hardly to make our point. Among the supposedly truths there is one unmistakenly exact and that is.." At the end of the road death is awaiting for us "
This precious life has a purpose and to waste it uselessly would be a bankrupt disaster.

Dear Brian,

I regret my inadequacy in expression. My father's death was not a miracle. He had built it over the years through meditation. His friends were far more superior to him who packed up their things on the fateful day and went to creamation ground to leave their body.They all left their body at their will. The book "Autobiography of a Yogi" I had read when I was a student in 1982.

You are correct that everyone thinks that the faith that one follows considers of the highest order.

Nothing is debatable here. I just felt like sharing ...............................

with love & regrds

[Tucson Bob]

JOHN C said: "he has always struck me as the type of person who absolutely hates the idea of Guru Bhakti."

Guru Bhakti is the old Sant Mat. All the literature and old satsangs were about this. Devotion to the perfect master and following his instructions to the letter was everything. I am no longer associated with Sant Mat (I was from 1968 [my first satsang] until a year or so after Charan's death) and I only know second hand what Gurinder is saying these days. My impression is that he is changing the teaching. Now, all of a sudden the perfection of the Guru is in question and gurbhakti is de-emphasized?

Maybe prospective satsangis should take Gurinder's words very seriously..."How do you know I am God incarnate, prove it."

Do you want to devote your life to attempting to prove, via Sant Mat spiritual practice, that Gurinder is indeed God incarnate? What if, after 37 years of dutiful practice, of avoiding muffins with egg whites, you determine that he isn't God incarnate and that he has no ability to liberate you from the wheel of transmigration and save your soul from the jaws of Kal? (Who the fuck is Kal anyway? He is a concept unique to Sant Mat.)

JOHN C said: "two of his famous words are "logical conclussion" that we have to reason with ourselves with what the truth is."

How is it possible to logically conclude that Gurinder, or anyone for that matter, is a master or God incarnate, or that any path or teaching can take you to God? We're on our own. There are a thousand forks in the road. Eeny meeny miny moe.

JOHN C said: "To me anyways Guru means teacher and he is teaching us a way to get back to lord...he always says "there are many roads we can take and this is just our way""

I think there are many ways and no way to get "back to the lord". The "lord" is already present now as what you really are. It can't get back to Itself. Does IT dwell in some universe called Blork far far away?

If Gurinder says 'how do you know I am God incarnate?', why does he play the role, and allow himself to be whisked around the world in a private jet to be adored as a God wherever he goes? Sounds like Donald Trump!

Maybe we should follow him.

[tao]

Rakesh,

Thanks for yor comment to me.

I have some comments about a few things that you said. With all due respect to you and your deceased father, I don't quite totally agree with a couple of things that you said:

You said: "My father .... was an ardent follower of RSSB faith sitting on meditation regularly.... But he left this world at his will. The day he was supposed to leave the body."

I understand that you feel he was a sincere RS satsangi, and that you believe that he left the body (passed away) "at his will". However, imo, death comes when it will and must, and not by anyone's supposed control. I do not accept that your father died "at his will". I only think that he somehow sensed that his life was about to soon end. And his intuition apparently proved to be correct. That's all. I do not think that anyone has any deliberate control or choice over the moment of death. I think only that some people may have a premonition or intuition of their soon impending death.

You said: "He normally used to say that meditation is nothing but rehearsal for the last day."

I kind of disagree with that idea. I think meditation is much more a way of detachment and transcendence of individuality, ie: to 'die' to the illusion of ego long before physical death, rather than to spend one's entire life oriented only towards the final moment of physical death. Death will take care of itself. It is Life that should be lived. I always like to say: "LIVE till you die". So to relate to meditation as being a mere preparation for the very end of one's life, for physical death, is a waste of ones life and a life-negative way of thinking. When the moment of physical death comes, nothing that was done in the past will matter. You will simply 'cross that bridge when you come to it'.

You said: "Experience is non tranferable."

So what? Experience is all transitory anyway. What we call "experience" is just life happening. Experience by itself holds no real ultimate meaning or value.

You said: "I would love to read your good or bad experience in spiritual endevours."

I have no "bad" experiences. And I have found that genuine spirituality is a really a process of simply waking-up to that which IS, rather than holding to some belief and/or seemingly progressing towards some supposed distant higher plane or supreme Godhead.

[anon]

Dear Tao,
How does one simply wake up to that which
IS.Pls explain the process..
I am really looking forward to your answer.

[Genn]

Dear Bob,
This Ego certainly has a vital function in the creation but perhaps our perceptions are limiteted to what we physically see and hear or fell. scientists reconsider their theories when new discoveries brings another brick to endless wall of our knowledge. Breaking through that wall could possibly be the reason of our existence. The ego prevails until something superieur replace that ego to enlight the reason.
Fantasies are described sometimes as weaknesses of our mind. Strangely some of those who had the urge to inquire the phenomenas of this world or the creeds of civilisations, never quenched enough their thirst. So here we are with enigma of what to believe or reject, accept or discard.
As children we are told that Santa Clauss will bring to us the goodies of our dreams. Then with the age we understand the fake. Deception gave us the first blow to our tender hearth. Shall we give up the Search ? Man is already a future dead body the very moment he came into this existence. It cost nothing to continue our quest by knocking the door incessantly. It is in our very nature to be insatisfied , indeed we are missing something but what, we barely know. My quest is my quest, yours is strictly yours. Peace of mind can be found only if we become children again and rely in our father strenght.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear Tao,
I am glad indeed to go through your threadbare analyses of my carelessly worded statements.

In fact, your explanations were the ones that I wanted to scribble.

Your words, "I have found that genuine spirituality is a really a process of simply waking-up to that which IS, rather than holding to some belief and/or seemingly progressing towards some supposed distant higher plane or supreme Godhead."

I know the words that life is too short to specialize in any mundane field. Then, how come a rolling stone gathers no moss can be explained.

A life time is not sufficeient for mastering even a musical instrument, how can one tread a spiritual path without being steadfast to a certain code of conduct.

I am not in any way against what you have written.............But too much of sincerety even in a mundane affair can bringforth frustration. Spiritual path is hellish............................, confusing but still loving if one follows without expectations and things at their own.
I am empty vessel and will never mind if remain till last breath of life.

with love and regards

[tao]

Rakesh,

Thanks agian for your comments. I am not sure that I totally understand all that you said. Dear Tao,

You said, referring to yourself: "...my carelessly worded statements". I don't think that your statemnts were carelessl;y worded at all. Your statements were worded quite well.

You said: "I know the words that life is too short to specialize in any mundane field. Then, how come a rolling stone gathers no moss can be explained."

I am just not quite sure exactly what you are trying to say here.

You also said: "...how can one tread a spiritual path without being steadfast to a certain code of conduct."

I myself am no longer involved in any treading and "spiritual paths". I also don't necesarily agree about needing "code of conduct". I live my life (or life lives me) spontaneously and naturally, and not by any sort of rules or "code of conduct". I am opposed to such codes of conduct.

You also said: "...too much of sincerety even in a mundane affair can bringforth frustration. Spiritual path is hellish."

I don't see it that way myself. I don't see spirituality as needing to be or being frustrating and "hellish". I would say that if frustration and hellishness is your point of view and experience, then you must be going about it the wrong way. There is no need to feel frustration or sorrow in the spiritual life. Simply abide in and as your own true nature. Frustration and hellishness is due only to ignorance. It will all vanish without a trace if you simply surrender to, and abide in, that which IS.

You also said: "...but still loving if one follows without expectations and things at their own."

Without "expectation" of what? why? It is unclear what you are saying here.

You also said: "I am empty vessel and will never mind if remain till last breath of life."

I thinbk I understand what you are tryinf to say, but not sure. Even to say "I am an empty vessel" is still a conceptual identification. I would say that your essential true nature is far beyond being just an "empty vessel".

Best regards.

[Tucson Bob]

Genn said: "This Ego certainly has a vital function in the creation..."

If you had absolutely no sense of self or ego you would do just fine in this creation. How about salamanders, warthogs, stingrays and tarantulas? Do they have egos and self consciousness as humans do? Yet they seem to manage OK in their roles in creation.

Genn said: "...but perhaps our perceptions are limiteted to what we physically see and hear or fell."

Any perception by a known or unknown sense can be limiting if it is perceived as separate or other than the perceiver.

Genn said: "Breaking through that wall could possibly be the reason of our existence."

I hate to break it to you, but there is no "reason" of our existence, at least not in the sense that there is some importance to our imagined ego and its wants and needs, that are part of a deliberate plan by some Guy in the Sky. The purpose of life is the living of it, as it is, now. Even though we are endowed with the capacity for more complex mental functioning than, say, a cow, the machinations of the mind are really our downfall as much as our asset. The primordial Awareness is as much present with the cow as it was with Einstein.

Genn said: "Fantasies are described sometimes as weaknesses of our mind. Strangely some of those who had the urge to inquire the phenomenas of this world or the creeds of civilisations, never quenched enough their thirst. So here we are with enigma of what to believe or reject, accept or discard."

That is exactly what all creeds, phenomena, are..fantasies that will never quench the thirst for Reality. Have the courage to reject them all, stand alone without them, and see that the answer is what you already are. The asker is the answer.

Genn said: "As children we are told that Santa Clauss will bring to us the goodies of our dreams. Then with the age we understand the fake. Deception gave us the first blow to our tender hearth."

As adults, the next blow to our tender hearts is that there is no personal God to save or help us. This is an objectification, an idea with no substance. Yet when we find that we are no 'thing', we see we are never alone because we then perceive 'ourselves' as everything.

Genn said: "Shall we give up the Search ? Man is already a future dead body the very moment he came into this existence. It cost nothing to continue our quest by knocking the door incessantly."

Yes, give up the search. Whatever we perceive objectively is dreamstuff reflected in the mirror of the mind. The eye can't see itself. What we really are is unborn and therefore can't die, and it costs a lot to continue our quest and keep knocking at the door...our peace of mind and recognition of what is.

Genn said: "It is in our very nature to be insatisfied , indeed we are missing something but what, we barely know. My quest is my quest, yours is strictly yours. Peace of mind can be found only if we become children again and rely in our father strenght."

It is human nature to be unsatisfied, but it is not necessarily so. What we are missing is the obvious, our conscious presence as we are. Our minds project it to be something to be found elsewhere in time and space which do not exist except as ideas or concepts. Your quest is my quest because what you are I am. Yes, we should be like children again and go out and PLAY !

[Chris]

I like the dialogue between Tao and Rakesh. Thanks for sharing!

[william]

tucson bob: god does not need a plan. isness is what it is.

anyone that thinks god needs a plan or in intelligent design has made god in man's image.

there is no interaction only omni action.

please dont assume you know. we on this blog and others confuse intellectualism with intelligence.

intellectualism has its home in the ego whereas intelligence has its home in isness.

isness is intelligent whereas man is ignorant. if this were not so we would not exist and there would be no interaction.

ignorance is manatory for duality to exist.

oneness becomes twoness by ignorance.

no ignorance no twoness

never once have i ever said god has a plan

plans are in the realm of time not infinite pure awareness

[Tucson Bob]

William,

You seem to be displeased with intellectualism and with those who assume they know. Yet, you present your own slew of concepts, judgements, opinions and assumptions. What's that all about?

[genn]

Dear Tao,
most probably we talk the same language but expressing it in a different manner. I share your views and I don't think that I'm trying to differentiate myself from the rest of the world.

[william]

tucson bob

most of what i present is based in intellectualism not intelligence.

one must come to see the difference between knowing about something and a knowing beyond knowing.

defensive behaviour reveals one has a knowing about something rather than a knowing beyond knowing or understanding.

understanding is based in intellegence.

long time study into ACIM and PAGL teachings helped me to sometimes see the difference between ego centered behaviour and oneness centered intelligence and not without a lot of personal mental pain and suffering.

coming face to face with one's own ego is not a pleasant experience.

if i get upset with others intellectualism it only means it is revealing my own intellectualism. the universe works that way to advance us in intelligence. or i should say to give us an opportunity to advance in love and intelligence.

most of the time we pay little attention to those opportunities which i suspect i am doing now.

paradigm shifts are rare; whereas paradigm paralysis is alive and well in the human ego.

two classic examples of this are ultra skeptics of the paranormal and religious fundamentalists.

tao with his defensive behaviour and name calling is a classic example of this intellectualism in action.

but even tao has taught me when he pointed out my misuse of karma in actiion was misleading.

this is the beauty of the internet and blogs like this one.

[Tucson Bob]

William,

you said: "paradigm shifts are rare; whereas paradigm paralysis is alive and well in the human ego.

It appears it is time for a rare paradigm shift in human consciousness as what we are doing now on the planet is rapidly coming to a boiling point. This doesn't exactly relate to what you were talking about. It just came to mind.

you said: "tao with his defensive behaviour and name calling is a classic example of this intellectualism in action.

Tao has his ways. I think he often very effectively cuts through a lot of dogmatic BS in a way that many people are too inhibited to do. But once people cut the crap, he can be quite helpful. For example, he said above (and what you will agree with):

"I don't see it that way myself. I don't see spirituality as needing to be or being frustrating and "hellish". I would say that if frustration and hellishness is your point of view and experience, then you must be going about it the wrong way. There is no need to feel frustration or sorrow in the spiritual life. Simply abide in and as your own true nature. Frustration and hellishness is due only to ignorance. It will all vanish without a trace if you simply surrender to, and abide in, that which IS."

you said: "this is the beauty of the internet and blogs like this one.

Yes, it is and words and intellect are the only tools available here. Otherwise, we may as well leave blank pages.

Carry on

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear sirs,
It has been a great pleasure to come across this web site. It keeps you in touch with the path in a rather critical manner. It does help you remember the master but in a unique way. It has many persons who were on the path (RSSB) for a long time and now the master has put them on a unique service. But they are still talking the same spirituality without faith but with a lot of conviction on logical scientific background and their "theoritical" experience.They claim that they have left the path but I am sure the master has separated them for a better cause which will essentailly be for their benefit alone.

We have many such people in India who have gone a step ahead and have proclaimed themselves as master and have a large number of followers.

This world is of dual nature. Every statement/ object has an opposite of it including the present one. It is unending polemics.

Rest in next. I have to go to office.

[gframesch]

WORLD TODAY IS FULL OF "GURUS-MAHARAJ JIS-SANT JIS AND MASTERS" LIKE RAINY DAYS FROGS-MUSHROOMS.GURUSHIP-MASTERSHIP HAS BECOME MEANS OF AN EASY INCOME,SOURCE OF RICHES ,FREE MONEY,WORLD TRAVELS AND PLENTY OF IGNORANTS TO ADORE AND ADMIRE YOU WORLD OVER..REMEMBER,HOWEVER,BEING A SON,GRANDSON, UNCLE OR OLD SERVANT OF SOME TRUE SAINT CAN NEVER MAKE ANY ONE SAINT = MASTER.SAINTS ARE BORN AS SAINTS,NOT MADE OR INSTALLED AS SAINTS.READ MASTER KIRPAL SINGH,BABA SAWAN SINGH,GURU NANAK,KABIR SAHIB,RUMI,IBN ARABI,HAFIZ SHIRAZ,SHAMAS TABRIZ AND OTHERS,NOT THE JOKERS-THUGS WHO TOOK OVER THE PLACES OF SUCH SPIRITUAL GIANTS,WALKING-TALKING GODS AFTER THEM AS GURUS AND TWISTED THE TRUTHS TO SERVE THEMSELVES.SAINT MEANS GOD-AS-MAN AND IF YOU DO FIND ONE,MAY BE ONE AMONG 1000 MILLION HUMANS,HE WILL TELL YOU ALL ABOUT YOUR SECRETS,MOST GUARDED SECRETS,COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN SECRETS.SON-OF-GOD CAN NOT BE LESS THAN HIS FATHER-GOD.SEEING IS BELIEVING AND EXPERIENCE OF LIGHT-SOUND HAVE NO REAL VALUE TODAY."A SATGURU KNOWS YOUR INSIDES AND INSIDES OF YOUR INSIDES.SEES YOUR MOST HIDDEN SINS-EVILS AS ONE SEES HIMSELF IN THE MIRROR".ASK GOD SINCERELY IN YOUR HEART TO LEAD YOU TO A TRUE ONE - and - HE NEVER WILL FAIL YOU OR LET YOU FAIL OR FALL.GOD IS A LIVING REALITY.TRUST THESE COMMENTS.YOU ARE MORE HONEST AND CLOSER TO GOD THAN THESE GODLY-LOOKING DISHONEST AND GOD FORSAKEN GURUS FROM EAST OR WEST.CROWS MAY TAKE A "HOLY DIP" IN A TANK OF WHITE PAINT,BUT THEY CAN NEVER SING LIKE THE WHITE SWANS.GOD BLESS YOU AND SAVE YOU FROM THE "BLESSINGS" OF FALSE,UNBLESSED GURUS OF TODAY.I HAVE LIVED AS CLOSE-PERSONAL LOVE-SERVANT OF KIRPAL SINGH JI FOR 22 YEARS.HE BROUGHT ME UP NEAR HIM AS HIS SON,APPOINTED ME AS HIS GATE MANAGER OF HIS RESIDENCE AND AS HIS PERSONAL BODY GUARD.HE FOUND MY LIFE COMPANION AND MARRIED ME IN SAWAN ASHRAM IN PRESENCE OF OVER 1000 GUESTS AND KEPT ME AS "HIS GUEST" IN GUEST HOUSE FOR ONE MONTH.I DIED IN ASHRAM UNDER A HUGE TREE,IN 1950,MY BODY,HEAD,ARM ALL SMASHED,WITH A POOL OF BLOOD ALL AROUND,800 PEOPLE WATCHING.HE MADE ME ALIVE,HEALED ME WITH NO DOCTORS-MEDICINES-HOSPITALS OR SURGERIES - and - LET ME SUFFER NO PAIN-FEAR-AMPUTATION-DISABILITY.I WAS JUMPING AROUND,FULL OF STRANGE SUPER ENERGY-BLISS, LAUGHING AND ASKING PEOPLE"HOW ARE YOU".HE SAID:"THIS IS MY "SIR LATH" SEVADAR [BABA DEEP SINGH,WHEN SANT JI WAS GURU GOBIND SINGH.]TO HIM GOD HAS FORGIVEN EVERY THING.HIS OWN LIFE FINISHED TODAY.FROM NOW ON HE WILL LIVE LIFE GRANTED BY ME.FOR HIM IT WILL BE ME WHO WILL ACCOMPLISH EVERY THING.HE WILL GET EVERY THING READY MADE. AFTER HAVING MET FACE TO FACE GURU NANAK,KABIR SAHIB,SWAMI JI,JAIMAL SINGH JI,SAWAN SINGH JI,PLATO,ARISTOTLE,RUMI,HAFIZ SHIRAZ,BAHA ULAH,SHAMAS TABRIZ,PITHAGORAS,APPOLONIO OF TIANA,BABA NIZAM DIN,SOCRATES,JESUS,BUDHA,KRISHNA,RAMA,OTHER MASTERS,gods AND godesses,SOME 27 OF THEM ALL,AND AFTER HAVING BEEN TAKEN TWICE TO SACH KHAND-SAT LOK-KINGDOM OF GOD OR LIGHT WORLD BY SANT KIRPAL SINGH JI IN 1986-USA,I KNOW FULLY WELL HOW GREAT ANY TRUE MASTER OR MY MASTER KIRPAL WAS AND HOW TINY-DWARFISH THESE "GURUS" ARE.THEY DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THEMSELVES,BUT TEACH YOU WHO IS SANT-GURU AND WHO IS NOT."SON KNOWS THE FATHER AND THE OTHERS TO WHOM THE SON REVEALS",MEANS,BE A GODMAN YOURSELF FIRST AND THEN YOU CAN KNOW OF GOD OR OTHER GODMAN.ONLY A GOD CAN KNOW OTHER GOD.THE SIN OF MISLEADING-MISINFORMATION IS UPON THEIR HEADS AND THEY WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THAT.LAW OF KARMA LEAVES NO ONE UNTOUCHED.WHAT GOOD IT IS TO CALL ONE SELF A "MOTH" AND BE BLIND TO THE "FLAME",ANY FLAME - and -IF YOU CAN NOT SEE A FLAME,HOW CAN YOU RECOGNIZE A CONFLAGRATION OR TOTAL LIGHT? SEE THE WORDS OF SANT KIRPAL SINGH JI IN CONTACT SECTION OF http://www.freewebs,com/ramesch/ AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF.LET NO ONE INFLUENCE YOU,NOT EVEN THIS PERSON.USE YOUR OWN COMMON SENSE-YOUR OWN HEAD AND YOUR OWN HEART-YOUR OWN INNER VOICE.gfr.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

I AM REALLY GLAD THAT AT LEAST I HAVE COME ACROSS SOME ONE WHO REALIZES WORTH OF A MASTER AND HIS VALUES.

SAINT KABIR SAYS, "KABIR I SHOULD NOT MEET ONE WHO IS NOT INITIATED, I MAY MEET HUNDREDS OF SINNERS, FOR ONE NON INITIATE CARRIES THE KARMIC LOAD OF MILLIONS OF SINNERS."

WITH LOTS OF LOVE AND REGARDS TO YOU,

[gframesch]

FOR ALL GOOD-HONEST SOULS LOOKING FOR THE REAL TRUTH-REAL GURU: GURU NANAK SAID THERE IS NO ONE IN THREE WORLDS[BELOW THE FOURTH,LIGHT WORLD OR GOD WORLD]WHO CAN EQUAL TO A GURU-SANT-NASTER.JESUS WAS SUCH GURU,AMONG MANY OTHERS.LEARNING IS DONE BY STUDYING BOOKS OF OTHERS AND STORING THEM IN THE BRAIN AND THEN PRESENTING THEM AS YOUR OWN ACHIEVEMENTS.KNOWING IS DONE BY EXPERIENCING OF WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT-BECOMING THAT OF WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT.IF YOU CAN NOT GO BEYOND THE EARTH-HUMAN WORLD,YOU ARE A MAN-WOMN.IF YOU CAN VISIT DAILY FREELY AT YOUR WILL INTO ASTRAL WORLD,YOU ARE A "GOOD MAN-WOMAN".IF YOU CAN VISIT SAME WAY CAUSAL-MENTAL WORLD,YOU ARE A "GODLY MAN-WOMAN".IF YOU CAN VISIT SAME WAY,BY YOUR OWN POWER,GOD WORLD AND THE SAINTS THAT ARE THERE,YOU ARE A "GODMAN"[THERE ARE NO WOMEN FORMS-BODIES THERE]YOU WIL KNOW THEM ALL-THEY ALL WILL KNOW YOU,AS "ONE LIKE US-ONE WITH US".IF YOU ACCESS GOD UNIVERSE-ANAMI DESH-LIGHT OR FIRE ELEMENT UNIVERSE,ABOVE-BEYOND THREE LOWER UNIVERSES ON THE WAY,ALAKH-AGAM-AGOCHAR OR EARTH-WATER-AIR ELEMETS UNIVERSES,YOU ARE "GREAT MASTER-GREAT SAINT-PARAM SANT-GREAT GODMAN".SAINTS ARE COMPLETELY PERFECT-PERFECTLY COMPLETE SELVES,THREE-AS-ONE AND ONE-AS-THREE,LIKE FINGER IS ONE BUT IS MADE OF THREE SECTIONS,CALLED TRIUNE SELVES OR TRINITIES,NOT AS INVENTED FATHER-SON-HOLYGHOST OF THE CHURCH BUT AS "KNOWING ALL-BEING EVERYWHERE-HAVING ALL POWER OR OMNISCIENT-OMNIPRESENT-OMNIPOTENT.THEY LIVE IN AND WORK IN ALL FOUR WORLDS AT SAME TIME THROUGH THEIR FOUR BODIES.IN ANY WORLD THEY LOOK LIKE HUMAN PERSONS.GREAT SAINTS-PARAM SANTS ARE NOT SELVES BUT SPIRITS WITH NO TRINITIES,LIKE A PENCIL.SAINTS HAVE GOD LIGHT-ARE FULL OF GOD LIGHT.GREAT SAINTS ARE THAT LIGHT ITSELF.GREAT SAINTS ARE IN DIRECT PRESENCE-CONTACT,FACE TO FACE, WITH GOD OF GODS-ABSOLUTE GOD-CHIEF OF GODS-ANAMI PURUSH.SAINTS ARE IN PRESENCE-CONTACT,FACE TO FACE,WITH COMPLETELY PERFECT-PERFECTLY COMPLETE "TRIUNE SELF OF THE WORLDS" CALLKED GOD ALMIGHTY-SAT PURUSH-TRUE GOD and THROUGH THAT TRUE GOD-SAT PURUSH AND THROUGH HIS IMMENSE LIGHT,IN PRESENCE-CONTACT WITH ANAMI-ABSOLUTE BEING.SAINTS ARE "TRUE SONS OF GOD",GREAT SAINTS ARE GODS THEMSELVES.SAT PURUSH-GOD ALMIGHTY IS THE PERSONA-HUMAN FORM OF ANAMI-ABSOLUTE BEING WHO IS FORMLESS-PURE SPIRIT.SAT PURUSH IS THE "BRIDGE" BETWEEN HUMANS BELOW AND ANAMI-ABSOLUTE ABOVE.IN GOD WORLD ANAMI-ABSOLUTE LIVES AS "BODY",VISIBLE TO THE DEVOTEES FOR THEIR JOY-BLISS AND ADORATION."SACH KHAND VASAY NIRANKR-NIRANKAR[FORMLESS]LIVES IN GOD WORLD"-NANAK.HE WHO REACHES THE TOP OF CAUSAL WORLD AND IS MATURE-READY TO ENTER SOON GOD WORLD-SAT LOK IS CALLED A "SADH-SADHU-SIDHA" OR "NEARLY PERFECTED ONE".SAINTS ARE GODMEN,HUMANS AS GODS,[not gods],GREAT SAINTS ARE MENGODS-GODS AS HUMANS-MEN OR INDIVIDUAL-INDIVUALIZED GODS,ANAMI-ABSOLUTE IS UNIVERSAL GOD.SAINT ARE RIVERS IN UNION WITH OCEAN,GREAT SAINTS ARE WAVES IN-AND-OF THE OCEAN,UNIVERSAL-ABSOLUTE IS THE OCEAN ITSELF.SAINTS-GREAT SAINTS-ABSOLUTE-ANAMI ARE NOT THREE DIFFERENT THINGS BUT ONE AS THREE-THREE AS ONE "ILLUSIONS-APPEARANCES".MOHAMED-RASUL-ALLAH,BISMILAH-ILREHMAN-ILRAHIM,BRAHMA-VISHNU-SHIVA,SAT-SRI-AKAL,GURU-GURUDEV-SATGURU,FATHER-SON-HOLYGHOST-A-U-M,G-O-D,M-A-N,N-A-M ARE ALL THREE FUNCTIONS OF ONE-ONLY,LAST-HIGHEST-ULTIMATE BEING OR REALITY.MAN WITHOUT BODY IS NAM.NAM WITH BODY IS MAN.GOD WITH NO FORM IS WORD,WORD WITH FORM IS GOD[IN THE BEGINIHG WAS THE WORD-WORD WAS WITH GOD-WORD WAS GOD-BIBLE].WITHOUT THE VISIBLE GOD,THE GURU,INVISIBLE GOD CAN NEVER BE FOUND-EXPERIENCED.THAT IS WHY "SON KNOWS THE FATHER AND THE OTHERS TO WHOM THE SON REVEALS"-JESUS OR "BIN SATGUR KINHI NA PAYA-WITHOUT MEETING A SATGURU NO ONE FOUND GOD"-NANAK.THERE ARE FOUR UNIVERSES[NOT THE "universes"OF THE SCIENTISTS].WITHIN THE LOWEST UNIVERSE IS GOD WORLD.THESE FOUR UNIVERSES+GOD WORLD ARE AMAR DESH-PERMANENT ABODE-REALM OF PERMANANCE.WITHIN AND BELOW THE GOD WORLD ARE THREE OTHER WORLDS[NOT THE worlds OF SCIENTISTS WHICH ARE ONLY AS "TOWNS" COMPARED TO WORLDS-UNIVERSES.[THIS OUR ENITIRE UNIVERSE IN THE NEXT UNIVERSE IS LIKE A TINY FLOWER FLOATING ON THE OCEAN BED,IN SIZE-RUMI]SAT LOK-SACH KHAND-GOD WORLD IS THE "HEADQUARTERS-MAINOFFICE-CAPITALCITY" FOR ALL WORLDS-UNIVERSES.IMAGINE A CIRCLE OR ROUND BOX WITH FIFTEEN OTHER CIRCLES-BOXES WITHIN IT.THE OUTER CIRCLE-BOX IS ANAMI-ABSOLUTE OR "THE GREAT UNIVERSE" WITH THREE OTHER UNIVERSES AND FOUR WORLDS WITHIN IT.THE INNER MOST CIRCLE-BOX IS OUR PHYSICAL WORLD WITHIN THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE WITHIN THE GREAT UNIVERSE.THE "WORLD-UNIVERSE" OF SCIENTISTS,VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYES,IS ONLY 16TH.PART OF REAL PHYSICAL WORLD,OTHER 15 PARTS INVISIBLE TO THEM AND THEIR INSTRUMENTS.FOUR UNIVERSES,FOUR WORLDS,FOUR PLANES AND FOUR MATERIAL STATES [STARRY AREAS-FIRE,SOLAR AREAS-AIR,LUNAR AREAS-WATER,EARTHY AREAS-EARTH MATERIAL]ARE 16-SIXTEEN STAGES FROM "MAN-TO-GOD" AND "GOD-TO-MAN" CONDITION.SO,THE BRAHMA IS GIVEN FOUR FACES,VEDAS ARE FOUR,FOUR APOSTLES TELL OF SAME JESUS.THAT IS WHY LORD KRISHNA SAID HE WAS GOD ABSOLUTE AND IS CALLED "SIXTEEN KALAS SAMPURAN AVATAR" OR "PERFECT INCARNATION OF SIXTEEN GOD-MAN-GOD STAGES-STEPS".THE IGNORANT TAKE HIM TO BE KAAL-SATAN BECAUSE OF KAAL-SATAN PRESENT WITHIN THEM.REMEBER,NO ONE CAN DECLARE HE IS GOD AND SURVIVE LONG IF HE IS NOT REALLY GOD.NOW,AFTER READING ALL THIS COMPARE THE PIGMY "SRI SRIS,MAHARISHIS,SATGURUS,MAHARAJ JIS,SANT JIS,MASTERS AND GODMEN-HOLYMEN" WALKING THE EARTH TODAY AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT-HOW MUCH THET ARE AND ARE NOT.MOSQUITOS MAY SAY-SING THEY ARE ELEPHANTS BUT CAN OR WILL OR DO THEY ACT AS ELEPHANTS? GOD BLESS YOU ALL AND MAY AWAKEN THESE IGNORANT "WISE-HOLY MEN" .gfr.

[Prince]

Dear Sir,

The way you had written your experience, is itself answer for you. Its the way what they taught us, we have follow, they are saying they are nthng, then we all have to be nthng.....

[Blogger Brian]

Exactly. Compared to the vast cosmos, and 7 billion other humans, the guru is nothing. I am nothing. We all are nothing. Except the relatively small thing that we are.

Nobody is special. Except in his or her own way.