A message from an agnostic satsangi

Here's a mildly-edited email message that I got from a self-described Radha Soami Satsang Beas "agnostic." Like me, this person had started meditating many years ago with high expectations.

The experiment of meditation was performed just as instructed. Only problem was, the predicted results weren't forthcoming. Yes, as the message starts off by saying, we're on a parallel journey.

I especially enjoyed some lines near the end: "I still have a lot of respect and admiration for Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh [past and present RSSB gurus]. They may not be who we thought they were, but they are damn good at pretending to be who we thought they were."

Nicely said. Here's the message:

I have been reading your blogs now for several years and have been on a parallel journey on and off the path. I often need to read your blog to hear verbalized what I am thinking/feeling. Thanks for doing that and I appreciate your faithfulness in chronicling your journey.

I had a spiritual crisis about three years ago which caused me to doubt the legitimacy of the path and the divineness or lack of divineness of the Masters. I struggled with it for a year or so trying to give the path a second chance but finally decided that I just don't know what is true. Now I don't think about it much except to read your blog, like I said, to find out what I am currently thinking.

The major sticking point for me is like you said in a recent post—that this was supposed to be a science and if you do the experiment you are supposed to get the results. I would have settled for a few flashes of light or anything tangible that I was on the right track. I am always willing to concede that the fault lies with me and I am doing something wrong.

But if this was a true science then you would think that there would be some sort of feedback and correction mechanism to put one back on the right track. I suppose when Charan Singh was still alive we could have written and gotten an answer, but the reality now, with so many disciples, is that written communications are out of the question.

Come to think of it, I did write a few letters and got responses but they were pretty general and didn't really address what I specifically needed to do to make progress.

There is also a lot of stress on the need for a living teacher to guide you and that makes sense when there are only a few hundred disciples. But when you have a few million disciples and there is still only time to interact on a personal basis with a few thousand at most, it means all of the others aren't really getting any tangible benefit from that living Master.

It is amazing that once you stop having 100% belief in the program, how all the little inconsistencies that you were willing to overlook before make you wonder how you ever believed any of this stuff. Of course the reason was we wanted to believe it because we wanted it all to be true.

I still want it to be true. I think that is why I am still following the vows for the most part and meditating some – I am still hoping that Master will finally realize that he overlooked me someday and drag me inside.

Anyways, I have no regrets about the last 35 years and feel that I am better off for being on the Path.

When I think back to the beginning I have to admit it was the inner region travel that was the big draw along with the science part. I thought that when I was initiated that I would be going inside or at least be seeing some light or hearing some sound. So I was a bit bummed out when nothing happened.

Then later when I went to Dera [RSSB headquarters in India] I thought for sure when I saw the Master for the first time I would see or feel something.

Disappointment again, and again I rationalized the fault was mine. As time went on and life went on the expectation of something happening kind of faded and I went into kind of a routine. I was very consistent in doing my meditation every day for some period of time, but that time would vary.

I remember hearing Master saying once that if a disciple were to sit in meditation for two and a half hours every day for six months he would see some progress. During that time in my life it seemed like an unreachable goal. Then I retired and had no excuse.

So for eight years I meditated for two and a half hours or more every day. Still no visible inner signs of progress. Then I had that crisis where doubt finally was able to wedge itself firmly in my consciousness and I am now firmly in the agnostic satsangi group.

I still go to Satsang [meetings] occasionally hoping to be inspired, but am mostly just bored. I still have a lot of respect and admiration for Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh. They may not be who we thought they were, but they are damn good at pretending to be who we thought they were. Of course they have never claimed any powers for themselves. They have left that for our imaginations to fill in.

Sorry for this disjointed rambling but that is how my mind works these days. Thanks again for providing a forum for the not-so-bitter doubting satsangis. That ex-satsangi message board is a real downer.

Comments

[Ashwin]

It must be refreshing to realize that someone has benefited from your work, no?

[Brian]

Ashwin, yes. I mentioned this to my correspondent, saying that sometimes I think, "What's the point with all this churchless blogging?" Wouldn't silence be more eloquent?

Then I hear from someone who finds a point in it. As do I, really, or I wouldn't be sitting down most every day (on one of my two blogs) to write about whatever pops into my mind.

We're all connected, somehow. The Internet reflects that. It's good to make connections, anyway we can.

[Sita]

Sometimes I am bitter...
Also thankful for the good things,very good things even..
But I don't understand how it is for the''masters''if they''know''they are not what we thought they were/are..
or do/did they believe themselves in it?
Did/do they have inner problems with it,or do they think that it is a good job anyway,to teach people to meditate etc..
That is what i don't understand,I thaught my master had integraty,I still think he had, but again,I don't understand how they can manage..

[Tucson Bob]

Agnostic Satsangi writes:
"I still have a lot of respect and admiration for Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh. They may not be who we thought they were, but they are damn good at pretending to be who we thought they were."

Why do you have respect and admiration for them if they have deceived you? Because they are good actors? Or less politely and more to the point...because they are good con-men?

Agnostic Satsangi writes:
"Of course they have never claimed any powers for themselves. They have left that for our imaginations to fill in."

That's just it. It's all in your imagination. If they were honest, they would either come through on their promise, or quit the master charade. They claim power for themselves by continuing to play the role. Their claim is implicit by their actions if not explicit through verbal proclamations.

Agnostic Satsangi writes:
" I am always willing to concede that the fault lies with me and I am doing something wrong."

I think it is time for you to concede that the so-called master is doing something wrong.

There are other philosohical/spiritual avenues to explore. For example, The Heart Sutra is said to contain the explanation of all that needs to be understood. Even many nursery rhymes would be better.

[Edward]

I have not been associated with RSSB, and the posts are usually foriegn. But there is some familiarity.

"No one wants to believe that the very person (or persons) they were supposed to trust for their care and safety would betray them. In the mind, that just doesn't make sense. So an elaborate defensive system develops to keep the individual from having to face the horrors of what is happening to them. Please understand, all memory is screened by the brain and as we recall information, it goes through different filters in the brain. It is unlikely that any memory is recalled exactly as the abuse happened, but that is not the point. What is important is that the "self" was damaged in the process and needs to be healed."

-- Dr. Karen Engebretsen-Larash

[tao]

To the "Agnostic Satsangi":

You wrote:
"I struggled ... but finally decided that I just don't know what is true."

But that is a good thing. At least you have become more honest with yourself. True is what is true for you. Truth does not ever come from what others say. If you stick only to what is true for you, then you cannot go wrong. Your own unique life is what is true (for you). You have everything you need. Just accept that and don't worry about what spiritual teachers and/or teachings may say.

"...you are supposed to get the results. I would have settled for a few flashes of light or anything..."

But why are you seeking that? What is it that you desire, and why? Because somewhere someone told you that having inner visions of light and sound is supposedly important or necessary? That is nonsense. You were caught in a web of ideas that you presumed are a spiritual reality, and that are meaningful and indicative of progress. ... But progress to what? To "sach khand"? That too is just another acquired idea.

"I am always willing to concede that the fault lies with me and I am doing something wrong."

Why should there be any fault? But actually the fact that you think this, shows that you have a split mind. It shows that you have failed to recognize your own innate perfection, your essential natural state.

"...if this was a true science..."

But it is not. Show me where the science is. Dogma is not science. Belief is not science. Blind faith is not science. Just forget about trying to make science out of mysticism.

"I suppose when Charan Singh was still alive we could have written and gotten an answer"

Why do you need an answer? An answer for what? An answer to what? What is the question? Is life not self-revealing? Why do you feel that something is lacking, that you need to seek to gain or to reach, or to achieve something which you have presumed is somehow absent in your fundamental existence?

"There is also a lot of stress on the need for a living teacher"

That is propaganda that is promoted by those who would have you become their disciple, or by those who have bought into that idea and have become disciples. Of course there is nothing wrong with teachers, mentors, or guides, but there is never an absolute "need". Anything and everything is possible.

As that old time saying goes: "With God, all things are possible".

"It is amazing that once you stop having 100% belief in the program, how all the little inconsistencies that you were willing to overlook before make you wonder how you ever believed any of this stuff."

That's a good sign. It shows that you are inquiring and thinking clearly.

"...wanted it all to be true. ... I still want it to be true."

Why? What do you want to be true? Having inner sounds and visions? Having a spiritual savior figure? Just what is it that you desire? What is it that you feel that you lack? What is your real goal? And why do you seek that?

"I am still hoping that Master will finally realize that he overlooked me someday and drag me inside."

You are obviously still a bit of a sucker for the RS spiritual fantasy. You are clearly romaticising the esoteric. I would ask you, who is this "Master"? ...and why do you feel that you need anyonme or anything to "drag" you anywhere? I think you have quite a few un-examined issues in all of this. I would suggest that you do some inquiry into your own seeking, and your own un-examined beliefs and motivations.

" I have no regrets ... and feel that I am better off for being on the Path."

Better off in what way? Better off because you spent 30-some years trapped in a spiritual fantasyland? How is that better? Being a veggie? - Anyone can be a veggie without any involvement with RS at all. Meditation? - RS mantra meditation is far too structured and dualistic to be an effective form of meditation.

"I have to admit it was the inner region travel that was the big draw..." "I thought that ... I would be going inside or at least be seeing some light or hearing some sound."

But why do you think that transitory inner visons of light and sound are somehow representative of any real meaning, significance, or substance?

"I went into kind of a routine."

Life is not a routine. Life is an ever fresh moment of awareness and being. Embrace change.

"Then I had that crisis where doubt finally was able to wedge itself firmly in my consciousness..."

Thats good, but its not just doubt, but rather a growing sense of being realistic and honest regarding the truth about spiritual and religious dogma, and supposed gurus.

"I still go to Satsang [meetings] occasionally hoping to be inspired..."

That tells me that you are really still caught in the illusions of "the path" and "the master".

"I still have a lot of respect and admiration for Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh."

Why? Why do you have any respect for those who maintain a charade, playing the role of a spiritual "master", and allow themselves to be worshipped as gihf? To be quite frank, you respect them because you believe in the myth, in the fraud.

"Of course they have never claimed any powers for themselves."

They may not have done so directly, but they clearly allow, and continue to allow others to believe that. They have done nothing to change that.

[Sita]

It is not so easy to undergo the idea that even Charan Singh was not honest.
We never can know, how he managed to live with that.
In India it is normal to have spiritual guru's,it is part of life,maybe that is one of the reasons that it was not too difficult for him to play the role.
But also I feel betrayed.. at times.
The good things were that at young age became veg.and he told a lot about love etc..Sort of fatherfigure,a holy one.

[Sita]

BUT right now I only see how idiot the dogma's and the teachings are.
Chaurasi and even maybe slipdowns..etc.
Only the master, Gurinder this time, can ''save'' you.But also the diciples are responsible for their karma's.It is all contradictional bullshit.

[Ashwin]

How many adherents does RSSB have?

[Sita]

I am not quite sure,maybe Brian knows.
There are lots that is for sure.
I like to know,try to figure it out.

[Ashwin]

Found it.
2 million, apparently.

[tao]

Ashwin, That figure is an obvious deliberate exaggeration. I don't buy it at all.

[s.s]

i'm a recent initiate and after reading most of this blog, exsat group and the websites that are usually linked to. I realized that maybe santmat, guru may not be true(who knows still not a 100%) and after thinking about it for a while i think i'm still going to stick with it but not take it too seriously at the same time. some reasons for that is if nothing else it teaches you to be loving to everyone,help the needy etc(just overall it's teaches good things) and the four principles aren't a big deal to me as i was always a vetetarian, never drank and am enjoying meditiation a lot(it helps me relax and is very peaceful) although i dont' do 2 hours :P too much for me maybe someday. anyway just wanted to post and share my thoughts.

[Brian]

Ashwin, Wikipedia says that the number of RSSB disciples is about three million. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami_Satsang_Beas

Several decades ago, I seem to recall that the number bandied about was one million. A lot of initiating has gone on since then.

Most disciples are in India. I can believe two million worldwide. Three million isn't out of the question. Still small potatoes in terms of other religious beliefs.

[Tucson Bob]

S.S.
You are fortunate to be coming to your senses early regarding sant mat rather than spending decades or a lifetime believing its false promise as many have.

You don't need Sant Mat to live a moral life, eat veg food and meditate. You are already complete and nothing needs to be added or taken away. Just abide as your presence now and live gladly, freely and without pretense. Let your practice be to cease regarding the Universe as an object, cease regarding objects as entities, cease regarding 'yourself' and 'others' as such. Look in the right direction which is no direction at all..where no longer is there any 'thing' to be measured from any 'where'. Who then is there to be liberated? From what would they be liberated from?

Regarding numbers of Radha Soami followers: I don't know, but as Brian said the number 30 years ago was said to be one million with new converts, defectors, and die-offs being added and subtracted all the time since then. 2-3 million at present seems reasonable. I remember one bhandara at the Dera in 1974 which was a sea of humanity estimated to be around a quarter million or more milling about the compound. The dust and sewage was remarkable, but so was the fact that they kept order and fed them all. Give 'em credit for being well organized.

[Sita]

Nice thoughts s.s,keep the positive things,that seems to be very good.

Yes, i was thinking it must be about that much adherents by now.

[Paul]

Agnostic Satsangi writes:

"I had a spiritual crisis about three years ago which caused me to doubt the legitimacy of the path and the divineness or lack of divineness of the Masters."

Dear Agnostic Satsangi/ Brian - I don't want to so sound inquisitive but is it poosible to share the spiritual crisis for the benefit of the readers here? Thanks.

[Brian]

Paul, here's the response I got to your question from the Agnostic Satsangi:

"I had been on the path for 32 plus years. I had been a speaker at satsang for about 30 years, had been to India several times, had put in thousands of hours of seva and had pretty much toed the company line.

However, after being a speaker for so long spouting all this stuff, I started to feel more and more like a hypocrite because I had no experience to back it up.

In one of my last talks I talked about how we were no better than religious fundamentalists unless we had some real experience to back up our beliefs.

In this general frame of mind I was googling Radha Soami and came upon the Yahoo Message Board for Ex-Satsangis. I had visited it before and couldn't comprehend how some one could leave the path or be so bitter about it.

But something somebody on the board said (I don't remember now what it was) struck a nerve and for the first time in those 32 years doubt started to creep in.

Slowly it continued to grow in my mind and for several days I had that sinking feeling you get in your stomach when something goes horribly wrong.

I tried to recover from it and put a renewed focus on meditation and tried to concentrate harder, but it was too late. As I talked to friends about it that had been on the path for a similar amount of time, I found that many were having the same reaction - kind of a thirty year spiritual itch.

So basically the crisis was that I stopped having blind faith in the Guru and the path. It was a crisis to me at the time because I came to the realization that I had put so much of myself into something that might not be true at all.

However from my current position I now see it as more of a spiritual awakening."

[sapient]

Brian,
Sorry I am going tangent in this discussion. Since you mentioned about RSSB page in wikipedia, that reminds me how fundamentalists RSSB have become.
An entry in Wikipedia is not a official document of an organization and everybody contributes the facts and controversies related to that entry. I tried to add a sub heading 'controversy' in RSSB page in wikipedia and gave the link to your blog as an example and somebody deleted my content without giving any reason. I added it again and somebody deleted it again. I checked out the wikipedia guidelines and it is mentioned that nobody can simply delete the content without giving any reason. Oh so RSSB is like other fundamentalist religion, where I don't have my freedom of speech and I need to go through fatwas of RSSB.

Another example is of an orkut RSSB community. The moderator of the community posted the official BaBaji( Gurinder singh) picture and people started giving him warning that they will leave the community or will report abuse, if he will not remove the picture from there. what kind of hypocrisy is this? At one side, you are selling the $10 picture (I am sorry official picture) and on the other side you can't post it on a community discussing RSSB dogmas.

So far I thought the Fatwas are part of Islam only.

[Brian]

sapient, thanks for the info about Wikipedia. I noticed that I was getting "hits" on my blog from people coming from the "Radha Soami Satsang Beas" entry on Wikipedia.

I checked it out and saw the link you'd put in. Then, when I looked at the page recently I saw it was gone. I sort of figured that someone had deleted it for the reason you mentioned.

No big deal, but it does bother me that someone would censor the page like that. I can see correcting an inaccuracy, but not removing an alternative viewpoint.

Like you said, the deletion speaks for itself. And not positively for RSSB.

[Paul]

Brian,

Thanks for your response from the Agnostic Satsangi on spiritual crisis. Brian I do hear a lot of RSSB initiates complaining about being on the path for several years (10, 20 or 30 or more) and still not being able to connect to the sound and light show, while I also know/ hear others who either hear sound or see glimses of light or both and they may have been on the path for much less time period and may not be doing as much seva either. Could this be related to "past sanskaras"? I have also heard Huzur Charan Singh Ji's tapes where in one of them he narated the parable of Christ stating that "the first can be the last and the last can be the first". The way the parable goes is (paraphrasing out of my memory) that this contractor hire labors on some project - some labors work for 8 hours, some for 4 hours, while some for 3, 2 or less hours but at the end of the day all the labors got the same pay - 'Contractor' being the Master, 'Labors' being the disciples and 'same pay' being the promise of deliverance in up to 4 life times. So I am just speculating could it be because of this reason that some hear sound or see light by being and practising the path for much less time while the others do not hear or see even though on the path for much longer and practising and doing seva so deligently? Could this be related to past sanskaras? and you pick up the string where you left off in your previous birth? But in the end all will receive the same pay i.e. the deliverance?

[Agnositic Satsangi]

Paul,
That line of thinking kept me in the game for over 30 years. But one of the reasons the path was attractive to me at the time was this scientific aspect - you do the experiment and you get the results. But if you do the experiment and get no results - how long do you keep doing it? After 34 years without a bit of light or sound I finally decided to rethink it all. I wish it were true, I want it to be true but I have no basis anymore to think it is true. All I have is a body of literature that says it is true - the same thing that Christians have. I don't even know anyone that has told me that have had any experiences. I guess I am just to the point where I want some sort of tangible evidence that whatever spiritual endeavor I am pursuing is valid.

http://www.meditationcenter.com/info/questions4.html

check the 6th question from the top and just check the overall site it's very informative.

[rajivkraus]

There is a serios fight on this forum
between believers and non-believers.
People like Paul think their viewpoint
is the TRUTH.Others like Tao and Tb think
theirs is..
Everyone thinks that they KNOW.
No one is willing to accept the fact that
our human perceptions are too limited to
actually know the deeper mysteries that
everyone here debates and argues about.

No one is wise enough to accept that they
DONT KNOW.

[Edward]

there's a fight?

[tao]

To Rajivkraus, and readers:

You wrote: "People like Paul think their viewpoint is the TRUTH. Others like Tao and Tb think theirs is.."

That's total rubbish. You are absolutely incorrect about me. Paul may think his beliefs are "the TRUTH", but I have never said that I think, nor do I think, that MY viewpoint is "the TRUTH". You really ought to get your facts straight before making such erroneous representations about what other people may think. You don't know what they think unless they tell you. And I don't really appreciate you trying to say what I think.

You wrote: "Everyone thinks that they KNOW."

No they don't. Thats rubbish as well. I definitely don't "think that I know" anything. And it's even more obvious that Brian doesn't either. And I really don't think TB does either.

I just happen to observe that a guy like Paul really does think that he has the last word, and that his dogmatic RS beliefs and so-called gurus/sants are "the TRUTH", the highest truth. That's clearly the way he thinks, but not the way I think. I don't think or claim to know any such "TRUTH".

You wrote: "No one is willing to accept the fact that our human perceptions are too limited to actually know the deeper mysteries..."

Well obviously you have not been paying very good attention, because as a matter of fact, that is exactly what I (as well as Brian) have been saying for a very long time. So apparently you are just trying to blindly lump everyone together here (except for yourself of course), and then playing a little one-up game.

You wrote: "No one is wise enough to accept that they DONT KNOW."

If you really understood that, and really accepted that, then you would not be presuming and misrepresenting what others think, as you have done.

You should not assume that you know what others think, unless they actually state it or tell you what they think with their own words.

For myself, and for the record, I do NOT ever follow, accept, or bow to any cult beliefs, to any cult dogma, to any meditations, and especially not to any cult gurus or so-called masters or 'sants'.

I submit to, and trust only in, the One God, who is the Heart of my heart, the Soul of my Soul, and the Life of my life.

----------------------------------------------

In the Name of God, the Most Merciful, the Most Gracious.

All praise and praising belongs to Allah alone. He is incomparable love and limitless grace. All welth is His by right. All wealth is His in completeness. He is the One of plenitude.

Glory be to God,
And all praise is to God,
And none is God except Allah,
And God is greatest,
And none has majesty and none has power to sustain except God,
And He is the highest, the supreme in glory!

La ilaha illallah, Muhammadur-Rasulullah.

La ilaha means: There is none other than You. Illallah means: You are Allah.

Oh Allah, there is no god that can be compared to You or is equal to You. You have all power. You are the only One. You are the One who is alone. You are the One who made all of creation. You are the One who gives food to everything. You are the Father who protects all lives, the One who created everything, protects everything, and sustains everything. You are the One who causes lives to die and the One who revives those lives after death. You are the One who will ask the questions tomorrow [on the Day of Reckoning] about the right and wrong we have done. You are the One who gives judgment tomorrow. You are the only One; there is no god other than You.

Illallah. You are Allah. Muhammadur-Rasulullah. Muhammad (SAL.) is Your representative. He is the Messenger from Your kingdom. He is the representative for Your entire kingdom of grace. He is the Rasul (SAL.) the wise man, for all the creations who are under Your gaze. You made him the Rasul (SAL.) through Your wisdom, You sent Your wisdom to his form. The Rasul (SAL.) is the form of Your wisdom and that is the light to iman, to faith, certitude, and determination. For those who have faith in You, for those who have iman, the Rasul (SAL.) exists as light. Through that light, he makes us know You and see You. Muhammad, the Rasul (SAL.), is Your slave, Your representative, Your wisdom, and Your power.

La ilaha illallah, Muhammadur-Rasulullah.

Bismillähir-Rahmänir-Rahim.

In the name of God, the Most Merciful, Most Compassionate. May Almighty Allah bless us with His grace and His compassion. May He protect us with His compassionate grace. Amin.

May He save us from illness, from troubles, loss, and suffering. May He protect us from the many millions of sufferings that exist in the world. May He lift us up and support us. Amin. May all praise be to that One who is infinite grace and incomparable love, the One who gives us the undiminishing wealth of grace. Allahu ta'ala (God Almighty) is the One who bestows the wealth of the three worlds and protects us. May our prayers be to Him alone. There is no one worthy of worship other than Allahu ta'ala. La ilaha illallah.

---------------------------------------

http://www.bmf.org/wisdom/quotes.html

http://www.bmf.org/wisdom/gallery.html

http://www.bmf.org/wisdom/index.html

[Edward]

Tao wrote:

"May He save us from illness, from troubles, loss, and suffering. May He protect us from the many millions of sufferings that exist in the world. May He lift us up and support us. Amin. May all praise be to that One who is infinite grace and incomparable love, the One who gives us the undiminishing wealth of grace. Allahu ta'ala (God Almighty) is the One who bestows the wealth of the three worlds and protects us. May our prayers be to Him alone. There is no one worthy of worship other than Allahu ta'ala. La ilaha illallah."

I am singing this to the tune of "Horse With No Name."

[Nikhilesh]

Amin

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Brian et al.,

I note that B. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen states:

"Always use positive words, and never use negative or evil words. Cultivate good thoughts, not bad thoughts. Make sure your intentions are constructive intentions. Never be jealous; be grateful. Be tolerant, peaceful, and honest instead of vengeful. Always be compassionate, never proud and arrogant. Praise God, because God is the Deserving One. You need these in your life. If you can teach yourself to follow these suggestions, you will have a very good life."

--God's Psychology (unpublished to date)

Some may, or may not, follow his suggestion.

Robert Paul Howard

[OshoRobbins]

I am responding to Sita’s postings 2 june.

She wrote:
I don't understand how it is for the' 'masters'' if they ''know'' they are not what we thought they were/are..
or do/did they believe themselves in it?

Did/do they have inner problems with it, or do they think that it is a good job anyway, to teach people to meditate etc..

It is not so easy to undergo the idea that even Charan Singh was not honest.
We never can know, how he managed to live with that.

MY RESPONSE:
Sita,
You have gone from one extreme to the other.
Charan Singh did NOT knowingly delude anyone. He made it totally clear. He left this world with a clear conscience.
How can I say this? Because of the book “treasure beyond measure.”
Many satsangis hate this book because of what it says and I have yet to come across a satsangi who can simply read it as it is written, without adding their own interpretations.
I once took it as the subject of my satsang – people did not like what I said.
But do I care?
Listen – Charan singh makes it very clear – he has no spiritual merit or progress. He even says he feels ashamed when people bow down to him – knowing that he is not who they think he is.
He is revealing the truth – that he has no progress and does not understand why his predecessor appointed him. So he tries to run away.
He is being totally honest and open. Finally he decides that he will do his duty because of his trust in the great master and in Sardar Bahadur.
So he takes on the mastership only after making it clear that he is simply doing his duty and that he does not claim any spiritual status.

Now – just imagine the situation for a moment. Many would have just taken it on and not said a word. After all they have been officially appointed.

Charan Singh made sure that this book was published and clearly stated he made no claims.

One more small point. A seeker at the time called Ajaib Singh went to him for initiation and charan told him that he had no spiritual status or inner progress. Ajaib thanked him for his honesty and went to seek someone else. He subsequently found Kirpal and become one of his many successors.

The point here is that Charan Singh is honest – and I have a lot of respect for someone who simply states the truth. He claimed nothing and would never discuss his personal spiritual life.

Yes – he was the spiritual head of RS – but he also did not want to just walk away and leave – he felt some responsibility to at least offer some support to the sangat that his predecessors had created. I take him as a human being and purely on a human level – I respect the decision he made.

In the same way BabaJi is a cool dude as well. I mean I always have some pretty open discussions with him on the mic and while the sangat gets upset – he openly discusses with me.

I don’t agree with him on many points – and I tell him. He does not agree with me and he tells me. We are two human beings – openly discussing.

Once someone said “Turn off his mic” referring to my mic. BabaJi immediately said “In that case you better turn off my mic too – because I am talking to him”

I am not a follower of RS – but I have nothing against it either. We go to kindergarten and then junior school and senior and finally university.

All of the schools serve their purpose. We are all at different levels. It is just not wise to stay in kindergarten all your life – that’s all.

[tao]

OshoRobbins,

I must agree ith you about Charan. I never saw or heard of him assuming any kind of spiritual superiority. He always appeared humble. He shouldered the life-long duty and burden that was thrust upon him by his grandfather and his immediate predecessor. That was his choice, and he saw it to the end. Most of his disciples don't want to face that, because in their spiritual immaturity, they want him to be their savior.

But... as for the second part of your comment, I do NOT at all agree with you about the current leader of RS, Mr Gurinder Singh.

In my experience and perception of him, based upon my 40 plus years of being a spiritual sadhaka and sadhu throughout India and the West, I do not see him as being any sort of an honest, humble, wise, or genuine spiritual teacher and leader, much less a true sat-guru.

In fact, he was one of the two main reasons that early on, just after he took the leadership of of RS, I ceased having any sort of affiliation with the RSSB and the RSSB-A, its satsangs, bhandaras, etc.

And that was even before he began the instituting of his (what I consider to be) detrimental changes and alterations to the RS organization and its spiritual teachings, and his increased level of excessive authoritarian control over the RS sangat and the Dera. And many other Charan initiate satsangis have outright left or drifted away for the same reasons.

Those who still remain in the RS fold are either gullible newbies who have no perspective, or are the kind of people who are just spiritually weak-minded and insecure, and who are comfortable sucking up to a shallow authoritarian leader, who is nothing more than a fake sham guru, an imposter.

At least Charan had the honesty, humility, and guts to be up-front about himself and his humble acceptance of the life-time responsibility and burden of being the spiritual leader of RS Beas that was placed upon him by Sawan.

I definitely cannot say that for Gurinder.

[Catherine]

Tao
Would you call yourself Mosqueless? If you are, I would be interested to hear how, since your orientation is Islamic.

[Tucson Bob]

I had a couple of interviews with Charan and saw him many times at meetings, etc. He was a gentleman with a kind personality, and it is admirable how well he handled a lifelong position he really didn't want, at least at the beginning. But if he had no attainment, he should have made that perfectly clear to everyone instead of allowing the perpetuation of the myth of his perfection as the all-knowing savior and administrator of his disciples' karma and Grand Conductor of their eternal salvation. So, in the end, he lived a lie.

[OshoRobbins]

Charan singh was honest enough to not claim any spiritual status – he just performed satsang and played his part. By ensuring that treasure beyond measure was published – he left it up to people to make up their own minds – he made his status clear. As far as followers are concerned – they cannot accept what he wrote – they still don’t believe it – they cannot because their faith hinges on it. They assume that he is just saying that to be humble and that it is not really true.

Regarding Gurinder Singh – his whole approach is different. Let’s give him credit where credit is due. I am neither for nor against him personally. He gets people to think for themselves – he does not give them false hope. He has taken away the comfort blanket. He says that the guru will NOT come at the time of death – because who can come when there is only one. He has changed the teachings and moved them a step closer to enlightenment. Right now – in my opinion – RS is between the traditional RS and enlightenment. He says things like “I am not here to give you answers – but to get you to think.”

The sangat itself is backward – they don’t want to move forward. The sangat – the people – is what is making RS into a religion. I don’t agree with everything that GSD is doing – but whatever decisions he makes – some people will always disagree.

In my opinion charan singh was not a genuine master – in the sense that he was not enlightened – but who knows – by surrendering his life to RS perhaps that was his own path of surrender in the end. Charan singh was however an honest person and did his best. I regard him as a sincere human being and generally a nice guy.

Gurinder singh in my opinion is trying his best – but has mis-understood the nature of enlightenment. In enlightenment – there is nothing to do and nothing to achieve. It is very different from his grandfathers sant mat – which requires effort. Hence the meditation also has to be dropped because it has become a ritual and a method. But how can he just announce one day that meditation is not needed? He has gone halfway by saying that you should not be concerned with the results. This is surrender - not karni - which is the only way to 'get there'. karni - doing - effort - meditation - these will only strengthen the ego and reinforce the sense if "I".
God will not become a decoration for your ego.

[Tucson Bob]

If I were a satsangi now, I would be thinking..if Gurinder is changing the teachings, does that mean the previous masters' teachings were false, or are Gurinder's teachings false, or both? This would be a very tenuous situation to base my life on.

A few disclaimer passages in 'treasure beyond measure' is not enough, in my opinion, and does not excuse Charan's lifetime of posing as a 'perfect' master. As I have said here before, to the masses his status was implicit in the role he played if not explicit in overt claims of sainthood. The cynic in me comes in now, but for him to disclaim this lofty staus, clearly and publicly, would not be good for seva contributions and the family guru business. However, that would be the honest thing to do even though it might have caused a riot if he did so at one of the giant bhandaras. Once things settled down he could have gone back to making a decent living as a lawyer and running the farm which would probably be less stressful than being the annointed savior of millions. The Satsang Ghar would not be a total loss. It could be rented out to some other guru/cult leader.

He allowed everyone to address him as 'Master' or 'Maharaji'(dear great king),
etc. I agree he was a nice guy, but not that nice.

Why do I continue to concern myself with this path I am no longer associated with? Do I bear some grudge? Well, I admit maybe 15 years ago or so I was a little pissed off when all this dawned on me and what a sucker I had been. But that is all water under the bridge now, irrelevant. The subject just interests me because of my familiarity with it. Maybe some satsangi who is ready to wake up from the dream and move on will read what is written on this blog and other places and it will be a catalyst for change.

[tao]

OshoRobbins,

I agree with you about Charan. He did his best but was not a genuine sad-guru. I would not say that he lived a lie, but I would say that he could have been alot more vocal and emphatic about his ordinariness down through the years.

As for GSD, maybe you are right... maybe he is shifting the focus of the teachings, and maybe like you say its mostly all the stubborn and dogmatic satsangis who are not growing in that direction.

But in as much as they worship him so fervently, I really have to wonder why they don't take his new orientation and teachings (that you say he says) more to heart. Of course, I have had zero association with RS for about 16 years, so my view is mostly all derived from what others have told me about him and his management of RSSB. I do know that he tried to suppress and stifle all discussions and communications about Sant mat and RS on the internet. That, to me, tells me that he is very far from being even a mere spiritual teacher, much less a genuine sant/sat-guru. And so I really don't care how liberal and philosophically broad he pretends to be.

So in my conclusion he is a fraud, and he is far more a fraud that Charan ever was, even though Charan taught and represented a much more old-school straight and narrow Sant mat.

[LB]

Osho, you sound like an apologist.

Gurinder says many things. Take your pick and bake your pie.

If memory serves, Sant Mat was never about enlightenment. It made a clear distinction between the soul and the mind. Enlightenment is for the mind. Liberation is for the soul. Sant Mat is about (like very ancient Jainism from which it draws much)total liberation of the soul from matter/karma.

Both gurus have mentioned not to be concerned with the results of meditation...that our effort(s) are inadequate to remedy our situation anyhow.(Amazing Grace, take it from the top.) RSB's Sant Mat (unlike Buddhism and Jainism) teaches the need for "Grace", and all of that.

If the sangat can't think for themselves, as you say, --- the guru, nor you, should blame them. The buck stops at the top.

[tao]

LB,

I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about.

Fyi:

Contrary to what you say, genuine "enlightenment" has nothing to do with the mind.

But almost all of the common notions of "enlightenment" are all myths anyway.

Also, "liberation" is traditionally referred to as moksha. And fyi, according to Sanatana Dharma, enlightenment and moksha are absolutely identical.

Also, "enlightenment" is in fact, "total liberation of the soul" (as you say).

And the buck does not "stop at the top"... it stops with each individual, and for each individual. It's all your own responsibility, and not anyone else's.

[tao]

Catherine,

I guess I am pretty "churchless"... as I am not a church-goer. And you could say that I am more or less a Sufi.

[OshoRobbins]

tao,
you wrote:
"I agree with you about Charan. He did his best but was not a genuine sad-guru."
You are perhaps right - maybe he was a happy-guru not a sad-guru.

In the bigger scheme of things - there is nothing 'wrong'. Even that which appears 'wrong' is to awaken us further.

You wrote:
"But in as much as they worship him so fervently, I really have to wonder why they don't take his new orientation and teachings (that you say he says) more to heart."

That really is the point, tao. It is because they don't understand and don't want to - actually he disturbs them. He plays football with them - tells them he might be a fraud - tells them that darshan is really no big deal and that sant mat is not the only valid path. The old satsangis don't want to hear that - but what can they do - their new modern new-age guru says it and they have to go along. But in reality - they do not want to listen - he is shattering their nice, comfortable and cosy sant mat world. He says he will not come at the time of death to take you. That's a big one. They conclude that he must be lying just to get them to meditate harder. Of course he will still come - we have a written contract with him for God's sake!
Or at least for my sake!

Nobody listens to him because it is dangerous to really listen. But they pretend to listen because that makes them look good.

Gurinder is not a fraud, because his intentions are honourable. He has taken the courage to wake up a sleeping sangat and take them out of comfort. Those are not the actions of a fraudulent guru. He is sincere, although I don't agree with all his methods. It is impossible for everyone to agree with it all. He is playing his part perfectly - there are no mistakes in the universe.

[Catherine]

Osho

Your understanding is that everyone no matter what they do, are playing their parts perfectly. From this impression, a person can play themselves perfectly right over the edge, into the ditch, to beyond returning to sanity. Self improvers are trying to observe and work with habits that could harm themselves and others. Then they go about working towards harmlessness through careful attention.

Does Gurinder have the courage to wake up a sleeping sangat? His, and Charan's answers are/were very changeable to Western Satsangis, but I suspect that the Eaterners get the usual formal traditional stuff. Sometimes, his answers are decidedly thick and unprogressive. I don't see him as an exciting new Guru moving his people from worship to self-enlightenment.

Waht has increasingly dawned on me is that people really want to be rescued, saved. If it doesn't happen in this life, then let people make sure that they set things up with an 'authority' to supposedly rescue them after death. This is quite a phenomenon, that some-one has to sweep in and sweep us up to make it all better sooner or later.

I was interested in an earlier post of yours when you asked Thakar about a sex abuse scandal and he requested that you mind your own business. This was in fact exactly what you were doing. Because of the charismatic pop star quality that comes with adoring fans, I have noticed that Gurus usually have the last say and they frequently shut up an intelligent speaker with one or another unsatisfactory, but terminating answer. You are lucky you weren't a woman- for a question like that he may have dragged you down by your hair, got his assisants to tie you up, beat you black and blue to within an inch of your life and when you came to, suggest you thank him and tighten up the blindfold around your four-year old's eyes.

[OshoRobbins]

Tucson Bob,
You wrote
"if Gurinder is changing the teachings, does that mean the previous masters' teachings were false, or are Gurinder's teachings false, or both?"

Very interesting question. The simple answer, as you probably know, is that all teachings are false - because truth is above all teachings.

I also have another answer. The traditional sant mat teachings are only representations of the truth - that have been taken literally. Gurinder says that the regions are not literal - just levels of consciousness. This is changing the teachings - and at the same time I agree with him. Does that mean that the astral region does not exist? Truth is shades of grey. It does - as a level of awareness - just like dreams exist.
Traditional sant mat has placed too much emphasis on this shabd/naam stuff. Many quotes where they talk about "Gur ka shabd" it actually means the "words of the guru".
The confusion arises from the fact that "shabd" has two meanings - The RS meanings of celestial sound and also "words" that you speak.
RS talk about Varantmik and Dhunatmik. Here's a new take on it:
Varanatmik: That which is spoken. When the Guru TALKS - he is giving you words - explaining something that you have not yet realised.
Dhunatmik: it becomes YOUR realisation - not an intellectual understanding.
Sant mat says that only the Dhunantmik will set you free - interpret as: only the inner realisation, not the outer understanding, will set you free.
There are many ways to interpret the written word - it is ambiguous and each religion interprets in it's own way - creates it's own meanings.

You wrote:
"A few disclaimer passages in 'treasure beyond measure' is not enough, in my opinion, and does not excuse Charan's lifetime of posing as a 'perfect' master."

The book describes how he felt and what he did - he made his position clear - that he was not in touch with the radiant form and not traversing inner regions.

Suppose you are give the 'gaddi' by the current master, and he leaves. Now what? Suppose you are also very close to GSD. You will have to decide what to do. How can you simply just walk away when so many people are looking to you? You will have to help them in some way. Charan did just that - he made his position clear and continued to do his best - and never made any claims. Hence his satsangs are all theoretical - it is also the reason why there are speakers giving talks. All theory - all nonsense. A true satsang can only be given by a realised being - not a 'pundit'. Every speaker in RS is really a 'pundit' talking about things he has not known. The whole problem with RS mat is that it has become all about theory. Blind people leading the blind - telling us to meditate. It has become a method - a technique - a practise. The speakers spent their whole life explaining the technique and the disciples spend their whole life practising - and at the end of life - hopefully the master comes the take the soul. This is a religion. Even if someone experiences regions while living - he has simply become an astral projector and sees what he wants to see - a creation of his own mind. This is what faqir chand also says.

[Osho Robbins]

Essentially RSSB has ALREADY BECOME A RELIGION. Of course if you say this to any of the followers - they will get very upset. Yet the facts speak for themselves.

(1) I don't know of any true master in history who would have "blind followers" conduct satsang or give talks.

(2) There are NO RESULTS and NOBODY GETS ENLIGHTENED. Instead it is a constant "I'm getting closer, I feel peace, I just need to meditate more." Well that is the same as any other religion.

(3) The followers have become very DOGMATIC about sant mat even though Gurinder says "I have never said this is the only path"

(4) Every religion has it's own UNIQUE and SPECIAL technique that leads to God. For a christian it is "Let Jesus into your life. Pray to Jesus. Jesus will save you". In Islam it is "Pray[surrender] to Allah FIVE times a day." in Sikhism it is "recite the five scriptures every day." In RadhaSoamiISM it is "meditate for 2.5 hours on the FIVE MAGIC WORDS" - then the true NAAM will manifest and tune you to God.

I fully acknowledge that Gurinder is trying not to make it a religion - but I am afraid it is rather too late - the followers are already conditoned and only pay lip service to what Gurinder says - even though he is supposedly their guru. Actually nobody even listens to what he is really saying. They all follow their own version.

I will give you one example. Gurinder says "MEDITATE but don't be interested in getting the fruits of your meditation. Forget the fruits - simply do the act - because your guru says so." Now this is a powerful technique - IF ONLY anyone actually understood and APPLIED what he says. It is almost impossible because we ALWAYS want the FRUITS of our actions. We PERFORM the actions FOR THE FRUITS. If you were to perform the actions - WITHOUT desire for the fruits - you would go beyond the normal "I am doing it for me" mode of living. You would go beyond yourself.

What happens is that Gurinder throws these snipets of higher wisdom into the satsang - while saying "I am just giving the same teachings".

Nobody can see what is happening. And to keep the sangat blind - the same idiots [sorry satsang speakers - but I really don't know what other word to use - if it helps - i am saying it with compassion] keep talking about the same old rubbish. Nobody is going to wake up when they are sending them to sleep every sunday. What Gurinder needs to do is put an instant stop to all the satsang speakers and create a new rule - only AWAKENED people are to give talks - and they can do them in their own manner - no rules. Now that might cause an awakening. I conducted satsangs as speaker for a few years. I didn't teach the same bullshit that the others teach. In fact I did not teach anything - I simply spoke from truth and got the listener to examine his own life. The ones who listened loved it - the others got upset that I did not tell them to meditate. How could I? When I myself do not meditate? Neither did I mention words like shabd and inner regions. That is all nonsense that people spend their who life seeking. I once told Gurinder in a meeting that I will not speak of that which I don't experience, because it is deception. He said - you are just saying what the scriptures are stating. However, in my mind - that is deception. Either speak your own truth - or don't bother to speak.

[Tucson Bob]

Osho Robbins,
You say Gurinder is making these changes, but if RSSB were true before, why would there need to be any changes?

If RSSB was incorrect before his appointment as guru, where is the authority for his current position since what put him there was false?

Respectfully: Are you serious? How can you make a rule that only 'awakened' people give talks? Who would establish their awakenedness? How would we know that the person/guru establishing the speakers' awakenedness is in any position to ascertain this or that the person/guru himself is awakened?

There is a problem here because when you are not awakened, you can't tell if someone is awakened or not, and when you are awakened, you don't care as everyone appears awakened whether they are or not!

One can always believe or have faith that certain teachings/gurus are real, but one can never know until they really 'KNOW', at which point it doesn't matter!

You wrote: "What happens is that Gurinder throws these snipets of higher wisdom into the satsang - while saying "I am just giving the same teachings"."

This is interesting. Suddenly there are 'higher' teachings than the old ones which were supposed to be the ultimate truth?

[Osho Robbins]

Tucson Bob,

Nice response. I always enjoy your responses.

What I am saying is that RSSB was never 'true' in the sense of being an authentic path that leads to enlightenment. However, SOME of changes that Guringer is making are more conducive to awakening. However, He still has a great emphasis on DOING - which is a barrier to truth. Truth is realising there is no doer.

Awakened people conducting satsang. This is just an idea I like to play with. I am not saying it is practical simply because no awakened person could function effectively if he is being told how to behave by an organisation. An awakened person would conduct his satsang in his own unique way. No formality - no scriptures - no rules. In other words - total chaos. Now would that not be an enjoyable satsang? I would certainly attend! And I would be open to conducting one. And I would Invite you to conduct one, and Tao and Brian would all be good candidates.

Snipets of 'higher wisdom'. The old teachings had no 'higner wisdom' - just outdated methods that appealed to the indian mentality - and no longer applicable to modern society.

[Tucson Bob]

Osho,
I enjoy your perspectives on Sant Mat. There are a number of responses I could make if time and energy weren't lacking.

Here's one to part of your June 14 comment:

You said, "Suppose you are give the 'gaddi' by the current master, and he leaves. Now what? Suppose you are also very close to GSD. You will have to decide what to do. How can you simply just walk away when so many people are looking to you? You will have to help them in some way. Charan did just that - he made his position clear and continued to do his best - and never made any claims."

As a follower of Sant Mat for a couple decades starting in 1970, it certainly was never made clear to me, or to any of the satsangis that I knew, that Charan had none of the powers associated with a so-called "perfect master". When he would say something like, "I am just a humble servant of the Sangat.", or something to that effect, we thought he was just being modest. We were told that a perfect master is humble and makes no claim for himself or demonstrates any powers, so this fit nicely into our image of how a perfect master would act. We had no idea that he really meant it! That he actually had no masterly spiritual power!

As I have said before, his supposed lofty status may not have been explicit in his words, but were certainly implicit in his actions. For example, at the guest house we all called him "Master" or "Maharaji". He didn't correct us by saying, "I am not a master or great king. I have no conscious ability to administer your karmas or effect your salvation. I am not aware of having an astral form of myself within each one of you. I am in the same boat you are. Just call me Mr. Singh or Dude."

I understand he was in a difficult position, but to allow everyone to believe he was who the books and satsangs said he was, is dishonest. I think that despite being initially resistant to the title thrust upon him, he came to enjoy his role, of being this kingly pastor to the multitudes...a job he did admirably well although ultimately hollow. His life was a perpetuation of a myth. That's my eulogy in one sentence.

[Catherine]

Tucson Bob

Mine too. Well explained.
My question is though; Did the fact that he affected the role assist in any way with social upliftment for very poor initiated Indian people?

I knew early on that Sant Mat would someday become a religion.

Where do you think religions came from!

The Saints do NOT found a religion, rather, the immature disciples propagate their imperfect understanding of the Master's teachings after -- and sometimes even before -- His "death."

Swami Ji said (before He died): "My Mat was of Sat Nam and Anami, and 'Radha Swami' Mat has been started by Saligram. Let this also go on."

Religions are born of the Mind.

Sant Mat is the teachings of the Saints and is not limited by space and Time (Time, change, or death, being but another name for Kal )!... and if Saints and "Masters" were so limited we would, indeed, be in dire straits.

And who are the Saints and "Masters" anyway?

First we must understand what they are not.

The True Master is NOT the material body that conveys the teachings -- sometimes called the body Master.

And who is the real Disciple?

The real Disciple is also NOT the material body !

So what is the Real Form of the Master?

The Real Form of the Master is the SAME as the Real Form of the Disciple!

That form -- sometimes called the Word of God -- is Love.

What He is... thou art!

If you want to know who the Master is find out who YOU are.

Know thyself!

He is a mirror!

Take the mote out of your own eye and perhaps you will better see your reflection!

As for the lack of faith, doubt, and certain "setbacks" ... it is OK.!

Those who themselves have fallen in a ditch and have worked their way out are in a better position to show compassion and understanding to others.

As my guru used to say: “brother, we are all in the same boat."

The training is rigorous and sometimes very painful.

The Sat Guru (true guru) puts the Disciple through karma’s in days, what would take lifetimes with a more "loving" less competent guru.

Saint Kibir says the path of love is not like going to your aunts for tea!

Sant mat does not rest on the tenuous shoulders of belief ... but on direct experience.

Mechanical Meditation -- without love -- is not very effective.

If your sincere Meditation has not born the fruit of Love, then you should go to the Sat Guru and humbly request this boon from Him.

Swami Ji says that those who are too proud to beg from the Guru will one day have to humble themselves before Kal.

Ram Singh

[Tucson Bob]

Ram Singh,

What you have written is nothing but the usual Sant Mat dogmatic drivel that has been ripped to shreds many times on this blog and others. I don't mean this unkindly, but that's the fact.

It would take some effort, but if you were to carefully go through the RSSB archives on this site you would see what I mean. If you already have, then I am surprised you would think what you wrote would impress any of the critics here. Only mesmerized RSSB cult followers will accept what you say on face value.

What is ironic, to me, is that some of your statements sound like what I would say about what I have found to be true, but the understanding behind the words is entirely different!

How can you or anyone know if any master, including Swami Ji, is a master? What if he isn't?

Really. What if he isn't? Is that not possible?

How can any Christian know for a fact that Jesus was the ONLY son of God? Or, how can a Muslim know for a fact that Mohammed was Allah's messenger? Can any Mormon know for a fact that Joseph Smith's "Book of Mormon" was indeed divine revelation?

[tao]

Ditto to Tuscon Bob's comment.

And as for Ram Singh... All I can say is that your inane sant mat religious prattle and ridiculous satguru/master mumbo-jumbo only shows what an incredibly irrational dim-wit you really are. It is actually rather depressing that there are numbers of other extremely delusional and mad cult people just like yourself running around. It is the crazy people like you who are so detrimental to the mental health and welfare of human society and the human species.

[Paul]

So here goes the trail...if anyone dares to express his/her opinion (which I suppose we all can, should and are entitled to?!) in support or favor of RSSB way of life in this blog, at first TB comes up in a nice way with good respectful words and in a thought provoking way, which is then followed by slanders by Tao in an abusive manner. I have been following this blog for a while and have noted this very clear trend. To me it seems that these ex-satsangi's are suffering from some-kind of "guilt" of not being able live up to the high standards of Santmat "way of life" and they blame "Santmat" for their own failures in getting the desired results. However, even now they are so obssessed with it that they can't even leave it alone!!

[Paul]

TB

How can you or anyone know if any master, including Swami Ji, is a master? What if he isn't?

Really. What if he isn't? Is that not possible?

How can any Christian know for a fact that Jesus was the ONLY son of God? Or, how can a Muslim know for a fact that Mohammed was Allah's messenger? Can any Mormon know for a fact that Joseph Smith's "Book of Mormon" was indeed divine revelation?

The answer is that you don't know and you can't know unless you live up to the way of life they taught during their life time. The fact is since you and I were not alive when they were alive on this planet so we really don't know for sure what was the "way of life" they were teaching for God realization. We today know their teachings through the religion and more often these teachings are misinterpreted to suit our own weaknesses and shortcomings. However, we can still use our common sense and take the "weeds' out from the old religious teachings and live a clean moral and chaste life.

For sure one would agree that it is not safe to "Drink and Drive". So why wouldn't abstaining from drinking and drugs wouldn't be appropriate for spiritual life??

No man/woman would like his/her spouse to cheat on him/her - so while leading a spiritual way of life - why wouldn't it be appropriate to abstain from sex outside of wedlock.

Certainly, we'll agree that cheating, stealing or hurting others with actions, words or speach is not appropriate. Then what's wrong with honest living and watching actions and biting tounge before speaking so that noone gets hurt.

If we humans don't have the courage to chop our own fingers/breasts with our own hands, then what right do we have to feast on chicken wings, finger fires or chicken breasts - i.e. cause pain and slauter the animals? Humans have killed so many animals that some of them are on the verge of extintion?!

Now comes the fourth way of sanmat life of meditation - if one wants the answers to the questions that you posed - one would have to be sinsere, dedicated and honest and put in effort with "love and devotion" and not just mechanically and keep looking at the clock for completion of 2.5 hours tenure. Meditation and prayers have to be ceaseless and should be reflected for 24 hours in our dealings with fellow humans and others.

I don't see any problem with the above four ways of life taught by RSSB teachers. But yes I do see a problem with when "Sevadars" holding positions perform seva mechanically and loose the concept that the seva is done to please the Master, his/her Sangat, and others (satsangis or non-satsangis or ex-satsangis) and do seva to exercise thier "power and authority" and like to "listen to their own words".

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Paul,

What is wrong with "sex outside of wedlock"? If such is honestly engaged in - usually for the sake of mutual pleasure - and its consequences are mutually accepted - why is "wedlock" necessary? No "cheating" need be conceived of as occuring when all involved give consent. Many presume to sit in judgment over this, yet I see them often to be just judgmentalists.

Robert Paul Howard

[Paul]

RPH,

What is wrong with "sex outside of wedlock"? - One may agree with it for a while since one knows it is one's weakness and one always knows when one is giving into it.

Also, I agree that no "cheating" need be conceived of as occuring when all involved give consent. I am yet to come across anyone who would give unconditional consent without any malice or jealousy.

But the question is where does it all lead to? One can keep on pouring water into bottomless well and it will never fill. It only leads to more cravings (for variety and quantity) and more dissatisfaction. Physical "giving" and "receving" for mutual pleasure is OK to an extent as it shows a very migre glimse of the "spiritual love". Physical love is a bridge to cross-over to the spiritual love and for me I would not want to live on a bridge, which is only meant to cross over.

Why is "wedlock" necessary? It binds one into a committed relationship and puts a legal stamp to it. Is is necessary? - I don't know the answer to it. But certainly it brings in an element of responsiblity and consequences from breaking up from a wedlock especially where children are involved (alimony, child support etc.). I would not judge anyone, people are free to make their own choices and they should.

[Tucson Bob]

Paul,

Good grief! Where can I begin? You are soaked to the skin by a religious belief system that has boxed you in. You believe it is the way to freedom, but it is only tightening the screws of the box!

You have all these concepts and relative value judgements about what constitutes spiritual life. As if there was actually someone that could actually choose to live it! Ideas, concepts, beliefs, better, worse are all phantoms in a dream play of existence. You imagine yourself to be real and that you can do something about it, that there is some place to go from where you are now.

Living a spiritual life, that is, a life where there are certain disciplines performed with a spiritual goal in mind has no particular relevance to realization, insight, true understanding, awakening, enlightenment, liberation or whatever you want to call it.

We are characters in a play, and as characters we may find ourselves involved in seeking enlightenment/liberation/salvation through various practices, prayer, chanting, religions, yoga, meditation, seminars, self-help groups, and the list goes on.

It may appear in the play that there is a progression or series of stages through which one passes to reach realization, but this progression is not necessary for realization to appear. None of the apparant stages has the ability to produce awakening which could appear at any time in any circumstance.

There is the presumption of individuality with reunion with the whole or 'god' as the goal, and as a means to reach this goal all sorts of methods are provided in the play to prepare or purify the individual to get rid of the ego or 'I' for this reunion.

The irony of all this is that the individual is already that which he or she is seeking. There is nothing that can make the seeker any more than what they already are. The search and all the methods are there for no more reason than being part of the play and for the individual to play a part in.

Realization requires no spiritual qualifications. One who meditates in a cave, eats the purest food, performs kundalini, who rises through various chakras to the thousand-petalled lotus is no closer to reunion than a fast food eating prostitute or gambler because consciousness is perfectly present in any condition.

But consciousness, already being consciousness in whatever form it appears, has no need of a vegetarian diet, yoga asanas, gurus, deep breathing, fasting, penances or prayer. If there is a liking for these things, all well and good, but they won't help you get any closer to the consciousness that you already are.

The attention could be in exotic planes observing the creation and dissolution of the universe, experiencing ecstatic cosmic visions, but the fundamental field of awareness in which all this occurs is just as present in the most mundane of circumstances as well.

You, Consciousness, appear in Your play in the role as teachers, disciples, students, gurus, masters. There may be 'spiritual' events or what the individual believes to be enlightenment that appears to be the result of engagement in various methods or association with gurus which the individual now passes on to his followers as the 'truth'. Some individuals may even have the ability to induce certain visions and transcendant events in others.

Fine. This all just part of the play of consciousness, but none of it leads to the perfection of what already is, as it is. This Presence has not arisen from an imagined past leading to an imagined future. At any moment there is only now and what presently appears as a play in awareness.

The apparently separate individual may embark upon a spiritual path or some sort of self improvement, but only the clarity of what you really are undermines the search for spiritual awakening or for being anything other than what already is.

YOU appear presently as the play, already wide awake, unable therefore to awaken. You are always obvious to yourself..never hidden. The characters in the play only have an apparent separate existence, but they are really You celebrating Yourself, immersed in the great game of life as You looking for Yourself. Sometimes you recognize Yourself as the appearances in Your Play, sometimes not, but here is no purpose for You to find Yourself..nothing is necessary, for right now You are that Consciousness just appearing as a character.

All along You have been the butt of Your own cosmic joke, mesmerized by the multi-facets of Your own cosmic game.

The search for the extraordinary is over, life is as it is.

Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.
After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water

But there is no one to be enlightened. The eye can't see itself. That's the trick. You are the seeing and what is being seen, but you are no thing in and of yourself. You can't make an object out of the Consciousness that you are, for what could it be that would then be looking at Consciousness? You are Everything and no thing at all.

[Roger]

TB,

Is Paul's belief in the SantMat, his form of chopping wood? If that is his path, then that is his chopping wood.

Paul,

Why the need to characterize TB and Tao as being on some kind of Guilt trip? They have their type of chopping wood, as you do.

[Paul]

Thanks Roger. I apprecaite your comments and advice. Regards,

"Only 'mesmerized' RSSB cult followers will accept what you say on face value."

I indicated very clearly that Sant Mat -- or the holy teachings of the saints -- is not so limited: as to be called a cult.

Self realization is not dependent on others or is being "mesmerized" a prerequisite.

All I can say brother is that I am very sorry that you didn't get from the Saints the Self realization and God realization that you so much desired.

I also feel very deeply for all of you.

If any of you have any questions I will try to answer you -- from my experience -- to the best of my ability.

Your brother,

Ram Singh

[Tucson Bob]

Roger,
Your response indicates how the 'chop wood' thing can be interpreted to mean different things, but to elaborate would only serve to further churn up already muddy water.

[tao]

Paul,

As Tuscon Bob said "Good grief!"... is right! Good grief dude!!! You have a serious problem.

To be quite honest Paul, you are really a stupid idiot. You have your head stuffed so far up your RS ass, that you have shit for brains. You are such a typically spiritually immature and dogmatized guru-cult goon. You just have no clue whatsoever about reality. You are obviously so lost in an artificially contrived, moralistic, judgemental, pseudo-spiritual dreamland. When it comes to some like myself, you have no idea what you are talking about. And the more you assume, the more you reveal how hung-up and mentally constipated you are.

You can support the imaginary RSSB crapola all you want, but that doesn't mean that others must do the same. I also have a right to my opinions, just as you do. And I also have a right to criticise you, what I see to be your stupid narrow-minded mentality, your lame opinions, and especially the RSSB cult as well. And fyi, the various intelligent criticisms of RSSB and its heap of "mystic" dogma and guru-cultism on this blog are not "slanders". They are based on substance and facts, not imaginary abstractions and blind faith as is the RS.

Now as for your utterly nonsense statement (referring to Tuscon Bob and myself) which follows:

"...these ex-satsangi's are suffering from some-kind of "guilt" of not being able live up to the high standards of Santmat "way of life" and they blame "Santmat" for their own failures in getting the desired results."

First of all, you don't know anything about me. I certainly have no "guilt" about any such thing as Santmat. I also do not have, nor did I ever have, any such desire to "live up to the Santmat way of life". You are only projecting your own mental constructs and emotional conditioning onto others. Frankly, I don't give a damn about Santmat & RSSB. I never did. I merely checked out its philosophy and meditation technique, and then dumped the entire affair as soon as I got the complete picture about the cult and its imaginary dogma.

Furthermore, I can venture to say that neither Tuscon Bob, and especially not myself, are in any way "obssessed" with Santmat/RSSB even in the slightest. You are clearly the one who is "obsessed". You are the satsangi, the supporter, the believer, and the defender of Santmat and RSSB. In fact, I have had nothing to do with Santmat in any respect for over 17 years. I don't even think about it except when judgemental fools and cult-goons like yourself pop-up again, touting your tired and stale old Santmat dogma.

You just have no clue whatsoever as to where I am at spiritually. You basically live in a small little bubble composed your own narrow and immature perspective. You simply do not know where I am at, or where I am coming from. And you know absolutely nothing about the vast life of awakening, and freedom that lies beyond the guru-cult, the imaginary religious cosmology & ritual, and the contrived philosophical dogma of Santmat and RSSB.

[tao]

For the record:

Radha Soami satsangis really and truly SUCK... big time.

And other branches of Sant Mat satsangis really SUCK as well.

They ALL SUCK.... especially their phony so-called "masters" and "saints". And especially the satsangis who can't seem to mind their own business and want to throw their Santmat dogma-shit up in everyone else's faces.

Just like all these other religious bastards, Radha Soami cult satsangis are quite DELUSIONAL.

And DELUSIONAL people, especially preachy dogmatic guru-cultist satsangis, really SUCK.

So Radha Soami Satsang and the RS Sangat SUCKS.

[Paul]

Brian,

This is absolutely pathetic state of your blog where you allow people like Tao to post words like religious bastards, cultist-satsangis, stupid idiot, RS ass, shit for brains, mentally constipated.

May god bless you!

[Paul]

Tao,

Looks like your never went to school and learnt any mannners from your mother. You are a shame to your mother's womb. It is such a shame that when you open your mouth you start with words like "religious bastards, cultist-satsangis, stupid idiot, RS ass, shit for brains, mentally constipated" these words only reflect your own pathetic state of mind and the very sunstance and fact of your life.

Also for the record - I have no interest where you are at spiritually or where you are coming from. Your language displays your pathetic state of mind and shows that you have no substance whatsoever and you are absolutely NOWHERE as fas as spirituality is concerned. You still have to learn how to spell "S" of spirituality.

May God bless you as well..Amen!!

"How can you or anyone know if any master, including Swami Ji, is a master? What if he isn't?"

Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote?

I answered that question.

I wrote:

"And who are the Saints and 'Masters' anyway?

First we must understand what they are not.

The True Master is NOT the material body that conveys the teachings -- sometimes called the body Master.

And who is the real Disciple?

The real Disciple is also NOT the material body !

So what is the Real Form of the Master?

The Real Form of the Master is the SAME as the Real Form of the Disciple!

That form -- sometimes called the Word of God -- is Love."

I FURTHER SAID:

"What He is {THE MASTER}... thou art!

Before we can know who the Master is we have to know who we are."

I FURTHER SAID:

"Sant mat does not rest on the tenuous shoulders of belief ... but on direct experience."

So when you ask:

"How can you or anyone know if any master, including Swami Ji, is a master?"

I already answered that(see above)

SANT MAT is based on experience and has very little to do with belief and unbelief.

If a student goes to a teacher of mathematics and comes out a mathematician, he is in a good position to know something about the qualifications of his teacher isn't he?

Experience is very different from belief.

One might say that the student has to start with a certain belief, or faith, that the teacher is qualified to teach him mathematics, but as he progresses(learns math)his belief is replaced by experience.

As for slander:

kabir says that the slanderer takes on the bad karma of the slandered!

"Do not push the slanderer away" -- says Kabir.

He further says that "it's a nice service that the slanderer performs -- and he does it free of charge!"

Ram Singh

[tao]

Heh heh heh...

Paul, get this: the "pathetic state" that you see is but your own. Your self-importance has made you into a ridiculous clown.

Maybe someday you'll get beyond the words, ideas, dogma, and contrived morality that you have stuffed your head with.

To hell with your stupid God, your stupid manners, and your stupid spirituality. It's a farce and the joke's all on you.

Wake-Up and Wise-Up.

And... May the Goddess consume you.

[tao]

Ram Rum Singh

Still babbling that same old "Master" mumbo-jumbo I see.

Sant mat indeed rests soley upon "the tenuous shoulders of belief". Its all belief in the abstract. Sant mat is a delusion.... and you are delusional.

Sant Mat is based soley upon abstract belief, and has nothing to do with experience. And experience is purely subjective anyway. Sant Mat is based upon unsubstantiated heresay, duality, and mystic myth. Subjective experience is no evidence of truth.

In your very own words: "One might say that the student has to start with a certain belief, or faith..."

You wrote: "kabir says that the slanderer takes on the bad karma of the slandered"

Kabir is nothing more than a name of long dead past, a figment of imagination, a mere myth.... And "karma", is just an idea in your little mind.

You also wrote: "Do not push the slanderer away" -- says Kabir. He further says that "it's a nice service that the slanderer performs -- and he does it free of charge!"

To which I say: "God's Gonna Cut You Down" -- by the late great Johnny Cash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e0EQlQXoEo

I wrote:

One might say that the student has to start with a certain belief, or faith, that the teacher is qualified to teach him mathematics, but as he progresses(learns math)his belief is replaced by experience.

If a student goes to a teacher of mathematics and comes out a mathematician, he is in a good position to know something about the qualifications of his teacher isn't he?"

You appear to be incapable of mounting a coherent argument -- in regards to the above statements.

In fact you make no argument at all!

Perhaps you have problems with reading comprehension.

Is English your first language?

Ram Singh

[Roger]

Tucson Bob,

I enjoy reading your comments. If you have further thoughts on the topic of; chopping wood, feel free to write another comment.

Stirring up that dang muddy water sounds like a healthy thing to do.

Best wishes,
Roger

[Tucson Bob]

Ram Singh wrote:

"One might say that the student has to start with a certain belief, or faith, that the teacher is qualified to teach him mathematics, but as he progresses(learns math)his belief is replaced by experience."

"If a student goes to a teacher of mathematics and comes out a mathematician, he is in a good position to know something about the qualifications of his teacher isn't he?"

To me this is the whole problem with gurus and masters. Ram Singh couldn't have said it better.

Ram Singh said:

"Before we can know who the Master is we have to know who we are."

Exactly right!!

Paul complains about Tao using the term "cultist-satsangis" as if the word "cult" was AS objectionable, when associated with the word "satsangi", as words such as fuck, shit, etc. However, RSSB falls well within Webster's Dictionary definition of the term.

Roger,
Re: Chop wood, carry water...after so-called enlightenment, nothing is changed.
There's another one about rivers and mountains. Same thing.

[Catherine]

Ram
The Mathematician is a good teacher because he has measurable results from his students. They do exams, people can walk into his classes at any time and see pupils doing the equations and getting them wrong or right. A reputation built on solid straight-forward viewable evidence is what results.

So, Ram, your argument- which is a rather hackneyed one used frequently by gurus- doesn't stand at all.

[mysti]

I'm responding to the earlier references by agnostic satsangi and a couple of others to a crisis of faith regarding their RSSB beliefs.

After spending a few years in prolonged and intense online discussions with fundamental Christians and atheists, I also reached a point where I had to be ruthlessly honest with myself and concede that, despite numerous personal experiences which convinced me of the rightness of the teachings, I had no conclusive way of knowing that the master was who I believed him to be, nor that the entire sant mat cosmology described reality.

I faced what I thought was beyond consideration for someone with unshakeable faith in sant mat for close on 28 years - the possibility that the whole thing may be an illusion at best or a lie at worst.

The outcome of this crisis of faith was different to most of those described on this site. The freeing and uplifting realization for me was the fact that it didn't matter whether the master and the path were the truth or not, only that I was being true to myself by following the path. And as the answer to the latter was a resounding yes, I had, paradoxically, reached a far deeper level of faith in the rightness of the sant mat path.

[Tucson Bob]

Mysti,

The 'I' or ego is more comfortable in the security of a belief system, no matter how unfounded, than to be cast into the abyss of infinity.

Catherine writes:

"The Mathematician is a good teacher because he has measurable results from his students."

The Sat guru is a good teacher because He has measurable results from HIS students."(culminating in His students experiencing Self Realization)

You write:

"They do exams..."

Disciples also do exams called tests and trials -- outside and inside.

Such as, temptations of power, fame, money, sex, pride, challenges of faith, and mental/spiritual obstacles within himself etc.

Some pass; some fail.

Some disciples may even have to retake a test -- if they fail or don't do so good.

Some who study hard (meditation etc)may advance more quickly.

You write:

"people can walk into his classes at any time and see pupils doing the equations and getting them wrong or right."

Yes, "people" can walk into his math classes, but only other mathematicians or advanced math students can know whether the "pupils doing the equations" are "getting them wrong or right."

By the same token, ONLY other saints and advanced satsangis can know(inwardly and outwardly)whether the Disciples are doing the spiritual practice correctly -- and their level of advancement on the path.

You write:

A reputation built on solid straight-forward viewable evidence is what results.

Yes, however, the "viewable evidence" would only be understood by other mathematicians and advanced math students.

By the same token the "viewable evidence" (Self realization of the disciple) can only be apprehended by other saints and advanced -- self realized -- satsangis.

You write:

"your argument- which is a rather hackneyed one used frequently by gurus- doesn't stand at all."

As I have demonstrated this argument "used frequently by gurus" is, indeed, sound.

You, of course, have used the word "argument' here.

I would say it simply illustrates that just as only another mathematician or an advanced math student can gage the qualifications of a teacher of mathematics; by the same token, only another sat guru, saint, or an advanced satsangi, is in a position to pass judgment on the qualifications of a guru.

Therefore, I drew the analogy as follows:

If a student goes to a teacher of mathematics and comes out a mathematician, he is in a good position to know something about the qualifications of his teacher isn't he?

In conclusion:

Only a Saint or an Self Realized Soul, can know the True Spiritual status of a Guru.

Ram Singh

PS: Although the above is problematic (to the average seeker)it may be of interest that satsangis have many interesting stories, some seemingly miraculous, some not so miraculous.

Nevertheless, they may(or may not) point to something more than chance.

Many satsangis report that they had inner visions of the guru -- even before meeting Him.

I have heard that the later is not that rare an experience.

Perhaps some initiates would like to share their preliminary experiences in their coming on or "finding"(or even hearing about)the path.

[tao]

Ram Singh,

Regarding your substanceless word games:

You wrote: "One might say that the student has to start with a certain belief, or faith, that the teacher is qualified to teach him mathematics, but as he progresses(learns math)his belief is replaced by experience."

The "experience" in question can only occur if the teacher is actually qualified. (and depending on what is meant by "qualified")

Merely believing or having faith that some teacher is qualified, does not guarantee one's own direct experience. And direct experience is neither dependent upon belief nor upon faith in the teacher. And finally, even if so-called direct "experience" occurs... It is a direct experience of what? And for whom?

You wrote: "If a student goes to a teacher of mathematics and comes out a mathematician, he is in a good position to know something about the qualifications of his teacher isn't he?"

Of which I shall re-phrase: If a student goes to a teacher of beliefs and dogmas concerning meditation, and comes out with a mind full of beliefs and dogmas, is he is in any position to know anything regarding the teacher beyond mere beliefs and dogmas?

Therefore, in as much as you have done nothing more than continue to promote and defend such blind faith, belief, and dogma, you appear to be incapable of mounting a coherent argument. In fact, you have presented no argument or evidence at all.

Perhaps you have problems with comprehending the necessity for verifiable evidence and proof (of which you have presented none, zero), rather than merely offering the same old admonitions to blind faith and belief?

So are you intellectually, scientifically, and philosophically retarded? It certainly appears that you are.

[mysti]

Tuscon Bob:

>>>>The 'I' or ego is more comfortable in the security of a belief system, no matter how unfounded, than to be cast into the abyss of infinity.

I don't know, I can only go by my own experience.

During my 29 years of atheism, my ego was more than comfortable, and even prided itself in not needing the crutch of a belief system founded in God.

By conparison, my ego gets a daily battering on the santmat path, and barely has a moment of comfort and ease before it gets put trough the wringer once more.

[tao]

Ram Singh wrote:

"The Sat guru is a good teacher because He has measurable results from HIS students.(culminating in His students experiencing Self Realization)" -- Thats a load of rubbish if there ever was one! So just where are these "measureable results" in students that you speak of? And where is the evidence of "Self Realization" in such students. And where is the clear evidence of such "Self Realization" in the so-called Santmat "good teacher"?

"...temptations of power, fame, money, sex, pride, challenges of faith, and mental/spiritual obstacles within himself etc." -- None of these are evident in the teachers or the followers of Santmat.

"...ONLY other saints and advanced satsangis can know(inwardly and outwardly)whether the Disciples are doing the spiritual practice correctly and their level of advancement on the path." -- This is all predicated on the myth of "saints" and the related illusion of "advanced satsangis".

"...the "viewable evidence" (Self realization of the disciple) can only be apprehended by other saints and advanced self realized satsangis." -- Then show us the "advanced self realized satsangis".

"I have demonstrated this argument "used frequently by gurus" is, indeed, sound." -- You have demonstrated nothing. The argument that you use is the same old tired and lame one that all religious snake-oil salesmen use.

"...only another sat guru, saint, or an advanced satsangi, is in a position to pass judgment on the qualifications of a guru." -- You are living in spiritual La-La-Land. You don't have any clue as to what a Sat-guru is or means.

"Only a Saint or an Self Realized Soul, can know the True Spiritual status of a Guru." -- You would not know a "Self Realized Soul" even if one hit you smack-dab in the face. You simply have no comprehension at all as to what the genuine awakened state is. You are simply just another parrot of Santmat/RS mumbo-jumbo.

"...satsangis report that they had inner visions of the guru even before meeting Him." -- Such inner subjective experiences carry no weight.

"Perhaps some initiates would like to share their preliminary experiences in their coming on or "finding"(or even hearing about)the path." -- Are you just plain dumb? This here Church of the Churchless blogsite is NOT some Santmat or Radha Soami believer site where satsangi folks get together and reminisce about their misfortunes realted to how they found the path. This is really more a site where the author of the site and various other folks occasionally discuss and comment as to how they woke-up and grew out of and beyond "the path" and its dogma.

[tao]

Mysti,

On the contrary, your ego is very invested in its attachment and struggle with the dogma and practice of the santmat path.

[mysti]

Ram Singh:

>>>Perhaps some initiates would like to share their preliminary experiences in their coming on or "finding"(or even hearing about)the path.

Would it make any difference? No matter how amazing or sensational these experiences may be, unless they are documented and recorded in a scientifically controlled environment, they would count as zero supportive evidence of the veracity of the sant mat teachings. And even then they would, at best, only demonstrate the existence of foreknowledge or premonition.

The mind is either receptive to the sant mat teachings or it is closed, and I am personally convinced that this state of receptivity is not in our control, neither can we change someone else's mind through our own efforts. Still, some of us continue to try.

[mysti]

tao:

>>>On the contrary, your ego is very invested in its attachment and struggle with the dogma and practice of the santmat path.

Tuscon Bob used the word "comfortable".

Of course my ego is "very invested", it hardly knows any other way. That is the problem with ego, it always puts itself center stage.

Isn't it also ego which prides itself in being above the lure of belief systems? Wouldn't it be a crushing blow to such an ego to submit to a spiritual teaching?

mysti writes:

"The mind is either receptive to the sant mat teachings or it is closed, and I am personally convinced that this state of receptivity is not in our control, neither can we change someone else's mind through our own efforts."

Yes, I agree with you.

These Minds behave like machines or drones.

It's been so long that I have forgotten what that sort of darkness is like.

Ram Singh

[Genn]

A few years ago I was in Dera and it happend that a friend of mine was too. After the morning satsang on our way back to the hostel my friend engage the conversation " I have been stuggling for almost 30 with my meditation, but now Master is serving me everything on a golden plate......
Few months later my friend passed away. I didn't know that he was suffering from a lethal desease.

[seeking]

By human nature we are result orientated. If there is cause there should be effect.Man made years, 10 years, 30 years - so what?! If you don't have the answer (I don't) whose calculations are you going by? Boy we humans are limited - bounded by calculations and measurements. It's not just about prayer/meditatiion - its about 'you' as whole being - your reaction/behaviour in the 'world' that you live in. Live and let live. One shoe does not fit all. The world is a noisy place - listen to your own sound -whatever that may be. I know one thing - there is 'more' than the end of my nose. I had spiritual experiences before I was initiated - why make it up? I have nothing to gain - but that was for me and me only - I can't prove it you all - nor do I want to convince anyone - as being young I did not understand it. Reading too much into the lines you can get lost and become rigid. By gosh - using words we are limited. Take your own path whatever that may be - have your own relationship with your intelligence, mind whatever - I'm not here to judge you - I hope you all find what you are looking for (or not as it maybe) be it in this lifetime or the answers once you'e body is dead. Like I said - I'm not judging you as you have left a path that you felt did not give you results - I have yet to be judged too.

[Catherine]

Seeking
' Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'
Richard Dawkins- The God Delusion.

Of course the garden is made up of the not so beautiful too. But it's altogether enough.

[Seeking]

Catherine,
What you see is what you get - that's the condition (state) were in. Some are rich, some are poor - hey that's measurable and tangible! - we can see how much a rich man has and the poor man in his rags - hey that's life/kismet call it what you may. We all have own goals - may not be monetary, could be anything which makes 'us' happy. SO some can look outside the 'box' and choose and experience 'things' which are neither measurable/tangible to others and can appear down right bonkers (yes I'm british)- Ponder on this - can you see or measure LOVE - what colour is it? What does it feel like? Have you touched love? Are there different dimensions to love? I'm not deluded.

[landofpar]

I have been reading many of your opinions about RS and the last two teachers. I was a follower in 1976 for many years.. But, after the tragic loss of one of my dearest brothers; I lost all hope that these gurus were really on the up and up, at least for the little guy in far away America.. Although, I did not give them money and I was invited to stay for many weeks at their Dera for no charge; in the long run, I felt empty and troubled about my own future being in their hands. I turned away from the path 15 years ago and only recenlty decided to check in again to see what the new teacher was doing.. But, I was more troubled by this new one, than the last one.. I found him to have little respect for his own disciples in the States.. One example... He is unwilling to tell them in advance when he will visit them.. He makes everyone wait by the phone with rumors that he might be coming over for a day or two.. Then the Sangat calls their members. At which time, everyone can drop what they are doing job, family, etc. run and buy a ticket or hop in their cars and haul ass across the continent to get a glimpse of a guy who is too scared to let anyone know he is coming into the country...

For, me, if I'm going to follow someone, and especially into an afterlife... He has to at least be brave in this life...... And he is not... I now see "their" true colors shinning thru. If he truly was "God incarnate" he would know his time of death and walk across the planet without fear.... and give everyone his itenerary.... Not be sneaking in and out of the country like a bandit.. Is he the Indian "Sundance Kid"?

The Apache Indians, might be enlightened, they have a very good saying, to bloster up the start of each new day..
"Today is a good day to die"".... Then they can face anything... Is this teacher worried that he might get arrested, shot, or harmed in some way??? He is not brave enough for me.. I'd rather go to desert and hang with our own Indians.

So, I am now reading the bible for the first time, starting with the Old Testament and onward..... I have a hebrew back ground. But, now I'm astounded to find out that Moses never made it to the Land God Promised his people... After all his hard work, gathering up hundreds of thousands, parting the sea, suffering 40 years in the desert, going up and down a Cloudy Moutain with fire spraying from the center, and hauling stone tablets down twice... Even he, didn't get to reap the rewards in this life of the promised land.. If Moses, couldn't get there, and God Loved him, what chance do I have...

but, what I do know, is I am finally thinking for myself, doing my own research and finding my own Truth, and maybe before I die..

Good luck to everyone....

from a great place on the Planet, which I have discovered....

The Land of Par....

[Tucson Bob]

landofpar,

Congratulations on seeing through the mire of RSSB and "...finally thinking for myself, doing my own research and finding my own Truth, and maybe before I die.."

"What you are looking for is what is looking."
--St. Francis of Assisi

"Enlightenment, instead of altering our state, discloses what we have always been."
--Hui Hai

best wishes

[tao]

Landofpar,

Please chant the Hare Krsna ("Hahraay Krishna") mahamantra and be happy.

A moments association with a pure devotee can save one from the greatest danger. That danger is to suffer on the wheel of karma for millions of births in the material world. A.C. Bhaktivedant Swami Prabhupada appeared to deliver a sublime message to us all:

You are not the body. You are spirit-soul. You are part and parcel of Shri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krishna is God. He is the all-attractive Supreme Person. Your eternal home is with Him in the spiritual world (Vaikuntha). You have a loving relationship with Krishna. The easiest method for reviving that spiritual love is to to chant the names of God:

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna
Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare
Hare Rama, Hare Rama
Rama Rama, Hare Hare

"This transcendental vibration -- by chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare -- is the sublime method for reviving our Krsna consciousness. As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our asociation with matter since time immemorial, our consciousness is now poluted by material atmosphere. In this polluted concept of life, we are all trying to exploit the resources of material nature, but actually we are becoming more and more entangled in our complexities. This illusion is called maya, or hard struggle for existence over the stringent laws of material nature. This illusory struggle against the material nature can at once be stopped by revival of our Krsna consciousness.

Krsna consciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind. This consciousness is the original energy of the living entity. When we hear the transcendental vibration, this consciousness is revived. And the process is recommended by authorities for this age. By practical experience also, we can perceive that by chanting this maha-mantra, or the Great Chanting for Deliverance, one can at once feel transcendental ecstasy from the spiritual stratum. When one is factually on the plane of spiritual understanding, surpassing the stages of sense, mind and intelligence, one is situated on the transcendental plane. This chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is directly enacted from the spiritual platform, surpassing all lower states of consciousness--namely sensual, mental and intellectual. There is no need of understanding the language of the mantra, nor is there any need of mental speculation nor any intellectual adjustment for chanting this maha-mantra. It springs automatically from the spiritual platform, and as such, anyone can take part in this transcendental sound vibration, without any previous qualification, and dance in ecstasy.

We have seen it practically. Even a child can take part in the chanting, or even a dog can take part in it. The chanting should be hears, however, from the lips of a pure devotee of the Lord, so that immediate effect can be achieved. As far as possible, chanting from the lips of a nondevotee should be avoided, as much as milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes poisonous effect.

The word Hara is a form of addressing the energy of the Lord. Both Krsna and Rama are forms of addressing directly the Lord, and they mena " the highest pleasure, eternal." Hara is the supreme pleasure potency of the Lord. This potency, when addressed are Hare, helps us in reaching the Supreme Lord.

The material energy, called as maya, is also one of the multipotencies of the Lord, as much as we are also marginal potency of the Lord. The living entities are described as superior energy than matter. When the superior energy is in contact with inferior energy, it becomes an incompatible situation. But when the supreme marginal potency is in contact with the spiritual potency, Hara,it becomes the happy, normal condition of the living entity.

The three words, namely Hara, Krsna and Rama, are transcendental seeds of the maha-mantra, and the chanting is a spiritual call for the Lord and His internal energy, Hara, for giving protection to the conditioned soul. The chanting is exactly like a genuine cry by the chold for the mother. Mother Hara helps in achieving the grace of the supreme father, Hari, or Krsna, and the Lord reveals Himself to such a sincere devotee.

No other means, therefore, of spiritual realization is as effective in this age, as chanting the maha-mantra, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare."

-- His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada came with a wealth of information about God. he translated the cream of the Vedic literature the Srimad Bhagavatam, and also the Chaitanya Charitamrita, without any tinges of mayavadi impersonalism. He awakened sleeping souls throughout the world to loving devotional service and Krishna consciousness. Become Krishna conscious and be happy forever. Krishna consciousness is your birthright, and it is the greatest gift to receive and to bestow.

Chant Kare Krsna!

Hare Krsna

http://www.krishna.org/

http://krishna.krishna.org/

http://introduction.krishna.org/

http://introduction.krishna.org/Articles/2005/01/030.html

http://www.krishna.com/

http://www.harekrishna.com/

http://www.krishna.com/taxonomy/term/12

http://www.harekrishna.com/radio.htm

[Tucson Bob]

Land of Par,

Wait! Don't listen to that Krsna stuff Tao put up. The Ascended Masters is the ONLY way:

The Ascended Masters

The Ascended Masters who guide and help with the expansion of Light on this planet are God-Free Beings, not bound by time and space. Having come into embodiment, as you and I through the portals of birth, They walked the earth fulfilling the inner calling of Their God Presence day by day, lifetime after lifetime. They mastered all the lesser things of this world, learning the lessons of Life, balancing karma, fulfilling Their earthly mission and manifesting and becoming God in action. At the completion of Their mission They achieved the ultimate Victory through the Ascension, the permanent integration with the Light of Their own true reality, Their Mighty I AM Presence. They continue to stand ready to assist the mankind of earth to accomplishing this same Goal and will continue to extend the Fires of Their Hearts till all are received into the Brotherhood of Light.

Jesus Set The Example

Jesus came forth to reveal the Conscious Dominion and Mastery that is possible for every human being to attain and express, while still here on earth. He showed the Dominion of the Ascended Masters, and proved to mankind that it is possible for each person to so call forth his God Self that each one can consciously control all things human.

The Ascended Masters Are Real Beings

The Host of Ascended Masters are tangible Beings of Great Light! They are real, visible, glorious, living and caring friends of old who have such Love, Wisdom and Power that the human mind gasps at its immensity. They work everywhere in the universe with complete Freedom and limitless Power, to do naturally all that the average individual would consider supernatural.

They Have Transcended All Human Limitation

An Ascended Master is an individual who by Self Conscious effort has generated enough Love and Power within himself to snap the chains of all human limitation, and so stands free and worthy to be entrusted with the use of forces beyond those of human experience. He realizes himself to be the Oneness of Omnipresent God - “Life.” Hence, all forces and things obey his command because he is a Self-Conscious Being of free will, controlling all by the manipulation of the Light within Himself.

"Mastery" and "Ascension"

These Glorious Beings, who guard and help the evolving human race, are called the Ascended Masters of Love, Light, and Perfection. They are all the word Master implies because by bringing forth the Love, Wisdom and Power of the God Self within, They manifest Their Mastery over all that is human. Hence, They have "Ascended" into the next expression above the human - which is Superhuman Divinity, Pure, Eternal, All-Powerful Perfection.

Each Ascended Being Is The Complete Embodiment of Love

It is through the radiation or outpouring of his own Pure and Luminous Essence of Divine Love that an Ascended Master is able to help those who come under his care and direction. This Luminous Essence has within It the Highest Force in the Universe, for it dissolves all discord and establishes Perfect Balance in all manifestations. The Ascended Master's Body is constantly pouring out Rays of His Light Essence upon the discords of earth, dissolving them like the rays of force which we call light and heat from our Physical sun dissolves a fog. The Radiation which They pour out to humanity on earth is consciously drawn energy to which They give quality, and again send it out to accomplish a definite result. In this way, They give protection thousands and thousands of times to persons, places, conditions, and things of which mankind are totally oblivious.

Each Master Is One With The Mind of God

The Ascended Master has the All-Knowing Mind and the All-Seeing Eye of God. From Him nothing can be hidden. Each Master knows and sees all concerning the student, for He reads clearly the record which the student has made. This reveals the state of the disciple's development - his strengths as well as his weaknesses.

Each Master Is An Individual Focus of the Forces of Nature

They are the wielders of such Power and manipulators of such concentrated force as to stagger the imagination of the person in the outer world. The Ascended Masters are really Great Batteries of tremendous Power and Energy, and whatever touches Their Radiance becomes highly charged with Their Light Essence through the same activity that makes a needle kept in contact with a magnet take on its qualities, and become a magnet also. All Their help and Radiation is forever a free Gift of Love. For this reason They never use any of Their force to compel.

They Are The Guardians of Humanity

The Ascended Masters are the Guardians of the race of men, and as in the world of physical education, various grades of teachers are provided to guide the development of the individual's growth from childhood to maturity, so do the Ascended Masters of Perfection exist to educate and help the individual that he too may expand his consciousness beyond ordinary, human expression. Thus, he develops his superhuman attributes, until like the student graduating from college, the one under the care and instruction of an Ascended Master graduates out of his humanity into the full, continuous expression of his Divinity.

Communion With The Ascended Masters Brings Bliss

Personal association with one or more Ascended Masters produces an intense feeling of Love and Gratitude that can never be put into words. Following such contact with Their Living Presence, there can be but one overwhelming desire displacing all other desires and that is to BE ALL THAT THEY ARE! Once a student has truly, even for a fraction of a second, experienced the Ecstatic Bliss radiating from an Ascended Being, there is nothing in human experience that one would not endure or sacrifice in order to reach Their Height of Attainment and express the selfsame Dominion and Love.

Since 1880 the Ascended Masters have carefully released to the mankind of earth the understanding of how each individual might cooperate in winning Their final Freedom and attaining the original purposes of incarnation. Precept upon precept, They have built a magnificent, cohesive understanding of True Identity. Further, They have clearly outlined The Path, which has been delineated, but which has yet to be put to the test by men and women who have scarcely ventured into the mildest forms of the Teaching.

The Hallmark of The Temple of The Presence is the kindling of this ever-present Fire of Ascended Master Light and the determination to live LIFE as They do . . . to live

The Ascended Master Way of Life!

TempleOfThePresence.org

[tao]

Your Ever Well Wisher:

http://www.lalive.info/flash/YEWW-big.htm

[tao]

Tucson Bob wrote:

"Wait! Don't listen to that Krsna stuff Tao put up. The Ascended Masters is the ONLY way..."

Huh? Seriously? You can't really be serious? As in, "the ONLY way", "The Ascended Masters", and all the rest of that "stuff"... that wishful mumbo jumbo?

You've just got to be kidding. You are kidding aren't you? I see they are in Tucson, but Have you actually tuned into their 24/7 web broadcast? Well I checked it out... for a minute or two that is... and I could not help but LOL. It was just sooo sooo goofy.

Btw, fyi, I do know all about the supposed "ascended master teachings", and then some. Far more than most of the people who believe and subscribe to it. And most of it is total fantasy bullshit. Don't waste your precious time. I do hope that doesn't hurt your feelings. It just doen't even hold a candle to the Sanatana Dharma, to Krsna consciousness.

Hare Krsna

[Tucson Bob]

Tao,
Are you the original Tao, or a new one? The Krishna thing seems out of character for the Tao who said he was a sufi and put up quotes from Ibn 'Arabi, and has repeatedly criticized/challenged guru/cult worship and practices. So, yes I put up the 'Ascended Masters' thing as a joke in response to your first Krishna post.

I used to go to the L.A. Krishna temple occasionally back around 1972 even though I was a Sant Mat follower at the time. The kirtan, dancing and chanting was a kick and the free Krishna balls were great(although they were so sweet my teeth ached). But I never took it all very seriously.

[tao]

Tucson Bob,

I had a feeling that your ascended master post was a joke, but Krsna consciousness is not a joke.

Very nice to hear that you have had some previous association with Krsna consciousness in the early 1970's. Although I am sorry to hear that you "never took it all very seriously". Perhaps you never investigated the philosophy deeply enough to really appreciate it. Over the decades, I have seen many people make that same mistake. They enjoyed simply the outer surface, but never really took the time to go deeper and truly understand the basis of the philosophy as it was revealed through the life and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and all the Vaishnava acharyas. Still, if one simply sincerely chants the Hare Krsna mahamantra, he will immediately start to become Krsna conscious and his life will be sublime and established upon the transcendental platform, and he will go back to Godhead.

I myself had the great good fortune to have first met Bhaktivedanta Swami in 1968 in San Francisco, and then later in New York, just a little more than a year before I first journeyed to India and the Himalayas where I stayed for several years.

So were you ever blessed to see Srila Prabhupada in LA during the 1970s? I also visited the LA temple many times in the 1970s. There was a very large community of devotees there at that time.

You also said: "...even though I was a Sant Mat follower at the time." Glad you mentioned that. The fact is that Sant mat is mysic yoga, but it is basically a mayavadi or impersonalist philosophy. Also, Sant mat and RS mat, as it was and is derived from the ignorant ideas of Shiv Dayal Singh as he expressed in his Sar Bachan, has no absolutely understanding at all about the transcendental glories of Krsna consciousness and Vaishnava philosophy. Sant mat and RS is yet another case of dogmatic people who have no real true knowledge or God consciousness.

[Tucson Bob]

Tao,
I never delved deeply into the Krsna consciousness movement because I was already committed to the RS path. I didn't see Prabhupad, as I recall devotees calling him. However, I have done a fair amount of chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra which, interestingly, came much more naturally to me in those days than RS simran (mantra) which I was doing as well of course. By the time I was finished with RS, the Krsna consciousness movement seemed to have disappeared and I haven't given it much thought.

More recently, I was associated with devotees of Swami Muktananda who also do a fair amount of chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra, and there is an artist, Krishna Das, who has some beautiful recordings of that mantra to music which ran through my head and over my tongue for a couple of years along with chanting "Om Namah Shivaya" which came more naturally to me than any other mantra. Of course, many people have had George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" going over in their minds.

Here is the thing though as far as the Krsna consciousness movement is concerned. I was put off by all the gilded trappings, Krsna statues, paintings, etc. which to me seemed like idol worship. Also, the public display of orange clad devotees dancing at airports selling incense and books turned me off. There seemed to be too much emphasis on outer form than "inner" awareness, especially due to the Sant Mat teachings that influenced me for many years, and my current understanding. Respectfully, where is the difference between Krsna consciousness dogma its objectification of reality and any other religion or path?

I would be more attracted to the simpler, more austere, less ceremonial, impersonal, quiet peace, of a Ch'an, Zen, advaitist, or Taoist type atmosphere, though I am not involved with any of those types of groups and never have been(except for an obscure type of Taoist martial art and chi gung exercises). I do my own thing which is no particular thing at all and doesn't fall into any category I am aware of.

[Manjit]

This is strange! Tao, I raised this issue before, but I think you denied it? With all your criticisms of the RS path, it is very strange indeed you are promoting the Hare Krishna movement?

I first came across HK literature way before I heard of RS. I was about 8 years old when I read (and re-re-read) books such as Sri Caitania (spelling?) and the Upanishads (as trans by Prabhupada).

Well, I think a few things are fairly obvious. The Hare Krishna movement is exceedingly more 'cult' like in it's action than RS has ever been. There are stories of abuses within the ashrams that, apart from Thakar, we never hear from RS groups.

The emphasis on practice and lifestyle is MUCH more controlling and cult-like than anything RS has offered.

And, the meditation practice is nowhere near as advanced as the shabd yoga of RS. Nowhere near!

The theology of HK is also more dualistic than RS at it's very core.

In every aspect, imo, RS is a far more mature, advanced, relaxed etc etc group than HK is.

It is actually quite inconceivable why you, Tao, promote it, in spite of what you say about RS?!

Strange.

Anyways, Tao, will contact you about Tony P and all that next week.

[tao]

Manjit wrote:

"With all your criticisms of the RS path, it is very strange indeed you are promoting the Hare Krishna movement"

I have not, and am not, promoting a "movement", group, or cult. I have merely mentioned the very basic orientation of the sublime philosopy and practice of Vaishnava bhakti yoga as was revealed by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

"I think a few things are fairly obvious. The Hare Krishna movement is exceedingly more 'cult' like in it's action than RS has ever been."

I don't necessarily agree. Every group or "movement" has its cult aspects. And RS is no exception and is in fact extremely cultish, in many ways far more cultish, secretive, rigidly dogmatic, and holier-than-thou than the ISKCON group. And bear in mind that Krsna consciousness - the vaishnava bhakti yoga system and the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra is far broader and not just confined to ISKCON alone. But I was never "promoting" any group or cult. I was simply emphasizing the teaching of Krsna consciousness and bhakti yoga, love of Krsna.

"There are stories of abuses within the ashrams that, apart from Thakar, we never hear from RS groups."

Again, I am not concerned with the problems and issues of a few sick individuals within these groups. And I am not promoting any groupism or cultism or movement. Krsna consciousness and bhakti yoga is really an individual affair. However the chanting is done both alone (japa) and in congregations (kirtan).

"The emphasis on practice and lifestyle is MUCH more controlling and cult-like than anything RS has offered."

Again I very much disagree. As far as these two cults go, both groups demand and practice a vegetarian diet. Both groups practice daily mantra meditation. Both groups confine sex to married life. Both groups are very guru oriented.

However, the RS cult is very narrow and closed, very exclusive, very secretive, very authoritarian, and generally has rather stuffy, unfriendly, unhappy, and on the whole, quite philosophically uninformed and uneducated members.

On the other hand, the bhakti teachings of Sri Chaitanya and and Krsna consciousness and Krsna devotees themselves are very open and inclusive, very benign and accomodating, very happy loving and sharing, and far more philosophically informed and educated than RS followers.

"And, the meditation practice is nowhere near as advanced as the shabd yoga of RS."

That statement and idea is even more erroneous. It reveals a complete lack of understanding of the nature of, and the sublime glory of Krsna consciousness and the teaching of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Sant mat & RS shabda yoga is basically an impersonalist mayavadi philosophy. And the fairly recently contrived RS text Sar Bachan is clear testimony to that.

"The theology of HK is also more dualistic than RS at it's very core."

That is also incorrect. The transcendental philosophy of Krsna consciousness is "achinta-bheda-bheda-tattwa", or inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference. The philosophy of Santmat is mayavadi impersonalism.

"In every aspect, imo, RS is a far more mature, advanced, relaxed etc etc group than HK is.

I have to totally disagree here as well. The RS teaching, and RS cult satsangis in particular, are some of the most spiritually immature and least "advanced" I have ever come across. They are also definitely not "relaxed" but actually quite uptight, and generally not happy, at least not in my experience perception of them.

"It is actually quite inconceivable why you, Tao, promote it, in spite of what you say about RS?"

I don't "promote" any cult. I only promote the sublime yoga of Krsna CONSCIOUSNESS, love of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, love of Godhead.

Hari bol

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

[tao]

Tucson Bob,

I am quite familiar with Krishna das, who was a disciple of Neem Karoli Baba. I have been good friends with Bhagavan das since our days in India and Nepal in the late 1960s and early 70s.

You said:
"Here is the thing though as far as the Krsna consciousness movement is concerned. I was put off by all the gilded trappings, Krsna statues, paintings, etc. which to me seemed like idol worship."

That is only superficial point of view. Those things are merely to assist devotees in their advancement in Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is not "idol worship". Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and as such is present in all His names, forms, atttibutes, etc.

"Also, the public display of orange clad devotees dancing at airports selling incense and books turned me off."

Why should ecstatic chanting of the name of Krsna turn you off? The offering of incense and books is to spread the sublime message of Krsna consciousness to the bewildered souls in the material world.

"There seemed to be too much emphasis on outer form than "inner" awareness"

I think you have missed the point of the teaching. Krsna consciousness transcends inner and outer.

"Respectfully, where is the difference between Krsna consciousness dogma its objectification of reality and any other religion or path?"

Krsna consciousness is no such "objectification of reality". Krsna is the supreme subjective. We are all part and parcel of Krsna.

"I have done a fair amount of chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra which, interestingly, came much more naturally to me .... By the time I was finished with RS, the Krsna consciousness movement seemed to have disappeared and I haven't given it much thought."

The Krsna consciousness "movement" has far from "disappeared".

"I would be more attracted to the simpler, more austere, less ceremonial, impersonal... atmosphere"

Impersonalism and voidism is the bane of love of Godhead and transcendental spiritual life. It is a trap which suffocates the soul.

Chant Hare Krsna and make your life happy and sublime.

[Tucson Bob]

Tao,

A few questions/remarks to your comments to me and Manjit:

You said: "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and as such is present in all His names, forms, atttibutes, etc."

How can this be known as truth to someone who doesn't know it? This is the same as Sant Mat saying Sat Purush is the ultimate Godhead. Is it not? In other words, on what basis could one follow Krishna consciousness in any other way than the blind faith required for following a religion like Sant Mat, Islam, Christianity, etc.?

You said: "Why should ecstatic chanting of the name of Krsna turn you off? The offering of incense and books is to spread the sublime message of Krsna consciousness to the bewildered souls in the material world."

I have no objection to ecstatic chanting, especially in a location where others are not involuntarily exposed to it. However, aggressive public proselytizing of one's faith is objectionable to many.

You said: "But I was never "promoting" any group or cult. I was simply emphasizing the teaching of Krsna consciousness and bhakti yoga, love of Krsna."..."Krsna consciousness and bhakti yoga is really an individual affair. However the chanting is done both alone (japa) and in congregations (kirtan)."..."Both groups are very guru oriented."

In order to realize Krishna consciousness one does not need to be a part of any group such as ISKCON or to participate in any group chanting and devotional practices? One can do it completely on their own with the same benefit? Is a guru such as Prabhupada a necessity to realize Krishna consciousness? If so, why and what function does the guru persorm?

You said: "Impersonalism and voidism is the bane of love of Godhead and transcendental spiritual life. It is a trap which suffocates the soul."

Impersonalism may have been a poor choice of words on my part due to the difficulty in describing something indescribable. I find that the 'Void' spoken of in Bhuddism is misunderstood, again, due to the difficulty in describing the indescribable. This Void is neither empty nor full, yet is not lacking in any way that would be considered suffocating or devoid of love, but rather transcends our usual conception of it.

You said: Krishna consciousness is "inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference."

I think the same could be said about this "Void" we're talking about.

[tao]

Tucson Bob,

You said: "How can this be known as truth to someone who doesn't know it?"

By simply chanting Hare Krsna.

You said: "This is the same as Sant Mat saying Sat Purush is the ultimate Godhead. Is it not?"

"Sat Purush" simply means "true person", an abstract description. Bhagavan Sri Krsna is the all-attractive supreme personality of Godhead. Krsna is Krsna, not just an abstract description. Sri Krsna is the sat purusha, the param purusha.

You said: "In other words, on what basis could one follow Krishna consciousness in any other way than the blind faith required for following a religion like Sant Mat, Islam, Christianity, etc.?"

Krsna consciousness is not at all something to be blindly followed, but something immanent something to be lived here and now. Krsna consciousness is consciousness of Krsna, and is Krsna's consciousness as well. Krsna consciousness comes intantaneously when one chants or sings or speaks or even thinks the Hare Krsna mahamantra, the transcendental names of Krsna.

You said: "I have no objection to ecstatic chanting, especially in a location where others are not involuntarily exposed to it. However, aggressive public proselytizing of one's faith is objectionable to many."

There is no "aggressive public proseltizing" that I have seen. I have not seen that. The presentation of Krsna consciousness is an offering of mercy, a causless gift. It is not forced upon anyone. Also, public places are places where one has the Constitutional right of free speech. If you do not wish to listen to what somneone has to say in a public place such as a town or a park, then the onus is on you to go elsewhere.

"In order to realize Krishna consciousness one does not need to be a part of any group such as ISKCON or to participate in any group chanting and devotional practices?"

That is correct. No such group participation is necessary. It may be helpful, but it is not necessary. You are still referring to group activities, but when I spoke of Krsna consciousness, I was never referring to group activities anyway. I have already tried to make that clear. Simply chant the Hare Krsna mahamantra and become Krsna conscious.

You said: "One can do it completely on their own with the same benefit?"

Yes, that is correct.

You said: "Is a guru such as Prabhupada a necessity to realize Krishna consciousness?"

It is only necessary to hear, to come into contact with the mahamantra... but the association (and instruction) of a pure devotee of Krsna is of inestimable benefit.

You said: "why and what function does the guru persorm?"

The guru (through parampara) is a direct link to Krsna.

You said: "Impersonalism may have been a poor choice of words on my part due to the difficulty in describing something indescribable. I find that the 'Void' spoken of in Bhuddism is misunderstood, again, due to the difficulty in describing the indescribable. This Void is neither empty nor full, yet is not lacking in any way that would be considered suffocating or devoid of love, but rather transcends our usual conception of it."

Impersonal, void, or what have you, does not at all indicate the personal nature, and the transcendental form and attributes of Godhead.

You said: "I think the same could be said about this "Void" we're talking about."

You are the one talking about "Void". Regardless of how you interpret it, "Void" is impersonal. The notion of "Void" does not indicate any personal attribute. Impersonalism is the idea that God is not personal. Mayavadism means that Krsna is considered to be merely a mundane mortal entity.

[Tucson Bob]

Tao,

You said: "Krsna consciousness comes intantaneously when one chants or sings or speaks or even thinks the Hare Krsna mahamantra, the transcendental names of Krsna."

As I said before, I have done some chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra. For about two years I did it quite a bit, at least on Tuesday nights. I enjoyed some peace and 'bliss' from doing so, but I have also experienced similar effects from chanting other mantras, performing rituals, gazing at gemstones, listening/playing music of different types, running, being in natural settings, walking into a supermarket, meditating, floating downstream in the Rio Grande, sitting quietly in the presence of a friend, and even while riding a horse in a long distance race, to name a few. I am not aware of any surpassing quality associated with chanting Hare Krishna.

You said: "There is no "aggressive public proseltizing" that I have seen. I have not seen that."

I have. Often.

You said: "The guru (through parampara) is a direct link to Krsna."

I am not familiar with the term 'parampara'.

You said: "Impersonal, void, or what have you, does not at all indicate the personal nature, and the transcendental form and attributes of Godhead."

This is where we seem to have a philosophical difference because to me 'Godhead' or 'Absolute' has no personal nature, form or attribute other than appearance emanating from/within the Absolute which is absolutely inconceivable as any sort of 'thing'.