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May 15, 2007


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Enjoy the honeymoon.

Anonymous, when I say that I'm dissatisfied with the results of Sant Mat/RSSB meditation, I'm referring to what was promised vs. what was experienced.

Not the experience itself, if you get what I mean. I still meditate every day. Like you and your husband, I feel calmer, clearer, more connected to myself and outside reality when I meditate.

That's something quite different from the soaring mystical experience of astral, causal, and spiritual planes of reality (the "five regions") that is the hallmark of Sant Mat mystical cosmology.

Transcendental meditation provides the benefits we're experiencing. Lots of other types of meditation do also. My point, which perhaps wasn't too clearly expressed, is that RSSB meditators aren't experiencing anything unusual or different from other sorts of meditators.

Wouldn't you agree? From your comment, it doesn't sound like you or your husband have left your bodies, transcended time and space, and are sitting at the right hand of Sat Purush every morning.

If you are, please say hello to the Supreme Being for me.

I recently had a 'chat' with GSD, as I am now getting famous for. This is what I said:
"When I first came to sant mat, I thought that I would meditate for 10 years, leave my body, get to Sach Khand, have tea with sat purush, and talk about old times.
What actally happened was that I meditated for 15 years, did not go to Sach Khand because sach khand is not a place. I did not meet Sat Purush because he is not a person. I did not have tea because he does not drink tea. I did not talk with him about old times because there is no time.
Truth is like my hair - neither black nor white - only shades of grey." (because my hair was visibly shades of grey!)
Now I made those comments - to invoke some response - so he would have the opportunity talk and say - yes you're right - these are all concepts - and there is no sach khand and no time. GSD has very clearly changed sant mat - Sach Khand is no longer a real place and sat purush is not a being.


In your comments to Brian, you said:

"Sorry to hear that you are disappointed with the R.S. path and.... What an incredible shame."

Why is the fact that the absence of transcendental experiences that the Sant mat belief system and practice promises, have to be a "shame"? What you are saying is as if Brian has missed the boat, or has failed in his 30 years of meditation. But I would suspect that it is highly improbable, if not totally unlikely, that you yourself have not reached anywhere near the sublime transcentdent spiritual plane or realization that Sant mat promises as a result of your efforts in simran, dhyan, and bhajan.

You said: "I have a different story."

Well I have a very different story. I was initiated over 25 years ago, and I have experienced extraordinarily profound transcendental spiritual states and profund self-realization.... but NOT at all as a result of doing Sant mat meditation.

In fact, these so-called 'experiences' were far beyond anything Sant mat conceives of or teaches, and they all occurred in spite of the Santmat meditation practice (which was clearly an impediment) and had actually already been abandoned. Moreover, the Santmat meditation practice and its belief system and guru-cultism was clearly understood and realized to be a significant impediment to such true and genuine transcendental spiritual awakening and deep self-realization.

And yet here we have people like yourself, who are relatively new and inexperienced in Sant mat, telling other very experienced and knowledgeable folks like Brian, that it is an "incredible shame".

I find that to be so incredibly presumptious. You put the blame upon Brian instead of upon Santmat wher it belongs. The fact and the evidence is that Santmat simply does not deliver, and you would not know anyway because I don't see that you have any sort of clarity about what it is that you are trying to achieve or to reach. You say that you are slowly plodding along, but did you ever stop to think where is it that you suppose you are going, or what exactly it is that you are trying to achieve?

You said: "All I knew was that a certain calming vibe was missing when I would see him and I had figured out that it was related to the meditation he was doing.

Calming? ... So what? Meditation in general is usually "calming" to people. But that does not prove anything at all about Santmat. Other comments have already addressed this anyway.

"I am very pleased with my progress and focus within. I have been plodding along...just like you.."

And what "progress" is that? And who says anyone besides yourself is "plodding along"?

You said: "...every year something big changes. Then my perspective changes...and I feel like there is amazing and substantial shifts in perception and clarity and stillness."

That probably has absolutely nothing to do with Sant mat meditation. That is just natural growth of your conscious awareness. Why is that people like you always try to give Sant mat meditation the credit, when there is no evidence to indicate that. In fact, all the unnecessary baggage that comes along with the RS system of meditation is very much a significant impediment and an obstruction to real spiritual growth, clarity, understnading, wisdom, and true realization.

You said: "And with every shift, I realize how much more shifting needs to occur..."

That is simply an illusion which actually indicates that you are really not progressing at all.

You said: "I'm now starting to appreciate WHY it is all going so slow (compared to what I desired orginally) and am thankful for His compassionate slow pace."

It is only "going so slow" because you are following nothing more than a belief system, and practicing a path which does not produce results. Nor does it have anything to do with "His". It is clear to me that you do not have the understanding or the wisdom to see the bigger picture.

You said: "There is still much I do not know and understand--like why some folks seem to have results after struggling and plodding along..."

Why do you assume that? Where is the evidence of that? There is no evidence of any such "results". Fyi, little flashes of light and bell sounds amount to virtually nothing spiritually. If you really desire true enlightenment, then you are really going about it in the wrong way. Don't just buy into the first 'mystic meditation' and phony guru that comes along.

You said: "...there are some satsangis out there that are really feeling good about the years of effort and graceful slow plodding."

Just "feeling good" is no measure at all of anything valid spiritually speaking. Lots of people feel go for a variety of reasons. Some of these same satsangis that you refer to have followed the path for years and even decades, and so if all they can say is they are just "feeling good", then sadly, they just really don't have a clue. If they were intelligent, they would be wise to let go of Sant mat, and then do some serious soul-searching, and then some serious study of other much more powerful and effective spiritual teachings. These people like yourself and those others you speak of, are simply wasting your entire lives in the mystical belief and myth of Sant mat.

You said: "Perhaps for you Sant Mat was just a stepping stone? Guess you won't know until that last breath."

Why would it take until then? That's a pretty dumb statement if you ask me. Now is the only time that one will ever know anything... And it is now already crystal clear that Sant mat is indeed only an (unnecessary) "stepping stone". All such things are only stepping stones...

... but The Way is always already here.

you said:
"Then my perspective changes...and I feel like there is amazing and substantial shifts in perception and clarity and stillness.
And with every shift, I realize how much more shifting needs to occur..."

The zen master would give the disciple a koan - an illogical question that seems to have no answer. The disciple 'meditated' on it until he finally had a shift that allowed him to deeply understand. An example: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Shifting happens all the time. Your whole life is about shifting. All paths will give you shifting. Christians, buddhists, muslims, sikhs - they all have shifting. All the scriptures of various religions, all the satsangs - they are all designed for you to get shifted.
But the greatest shifting occurs when you find a living realized person and you sit (or stand) in his company. That is the real meaning of satsang. He will do or say whatever he wants - almost like a mad man. In that madness you will find God. This is missing in sant mat. Satsang is nothing more than an intellectual exercise of reciting scriptures. Truth is never found that way. All you get instead is more concepts. That is why I said to GSD a few years ago that it is best if he puts an end to all satsangs and does them all himself. True satsang is not expostion of theory from reciting scriptures. True satsang is the company of an awakened being. That very company will awaken you by destroying your concepts and taking you way way out of your comfort zone.
Anything that keeps you in your comfort zone sends you to sleep. Collecting more beliefs and faith makes you blind.

You say "I am very pleased with my progress and focus within."

That in itself is a trap of teh ego. Who is pleased? Do you even know who the "I" is that is pleased? It is your ego self - an is it pleased because it is attaining. Truth or nirvana is NOT an attainment - it is the end of all striving. When you 'arrive at home' you will realize that you have always been home - just dreaming that you were not home! There is nothing to attain - nowhere to go. You cannot return to the one - you already are the one. Dulaity is an illusion and while you remain in duality - there will always be a "YOU" trying to get somewhere - trying to experience more and more shifts. The shifts are endless and the journey is endless. The real question you have to ask yourself is "WHO" is getting the shifts? When you find out - you will get the biggest f***ing shift of your life and it will destroy "YOU" and all the shifting. *excuse y french! - I just had to use that word for effect).
Once you get the biggest shift - your life will become a dance - you will no longet seek to attain anything. True meditation means to do nothing - then end of all doing.
"While there is a doer - you will continue to get re-born" - Granth Sahib

tao has made some pretty powerful statements in analysing your post. Truth is a lot closer than you think - it is our false beliefs that keep us bound. Any teaching that advocates effort is leading you away - because the effort is the cause of separation and duality. WHo is the YOU that is making the effort - that YOU is ego and no amount of effort is going to help you because YOU will make the effort - thereby reinforcing the ego. The real purpose of the guru is to take you beyond the ego.

Followers of sant mat do NOT HAVE a GURU - even though they think they do. The Guru is not just someone who gives you initiation. His real purpose is to get you to go beyond your comfort zone and face the truth of who you think you are. You are not who you think you are. Yet all your effort confirms that YOU are putting in the effort and you will claim the credit. You cannot avoid claiming - if you do - then you will claim the humility. It is an trap you cannot escape - until the Guru helps your realise that YOU are the problem. This is almost impossible without a direct close interaction. It cannot be done as a correspondence course.

The true guru challenges all your beliefs - he does not give you more beliefs - like meditation. Until you go beyond the 'doer' you cannot realise truth.

People will just believe anything they are told. You wrote: "I'm now starting to appreciate WHY it is all going so slow and am thankful for His compassionate slow pace."

Excuse me - but can you just read what you wrote? You are THANKFUL for the slow pace? Would you like Him to slow it down a little more? Do you actually ENJOY slow progress?

Also - there is no 'Him' doing anything at all - that is just in your mind. The human mind is capable of tremendous self-deception. You can believe anything you want and make it appear to be the truth.


Excellent comment. Right on target. You have said it clearer than I did. You really nailed it this time.

And I certainly do hope "Anonymous" will take it to heart.... but I won't hold my breath. Oddly, some folks are really stuck and just like to suffer I guess! Oh well...


Before you go knee-jerk responding with that same old RS dogma, try to deeply contemplate upon the significance and meaning and wisdom of what OshoRobbins has said. There is indeed much liberating light and truth to be found there.

There are many masters and people claiming to be masters, and initiates of a true master that teach the teachings of the masters and claim to be "the" master, although they themselves are not truely the true master of the highest order. I am sure you know Baba Sawan Singh, but do you really know his true successor, Kirpal Singh, and his true succesor, Thakar Singh, and his successor Baljit Singh, who is currently the true master of the highest order. Yeah, people say a lot of things and beleive a lot of things but have you verified for yourself who the true master is? This could be something to check out for yourself if you have not verified with personal experince who Sant Baljit Singh is. See for your self, hopefully you find what you are looking for! You will, its only a matter of when! Love, Light, and blessings to you

To Von Beck Jr:

Wow!!!... you are sooo deluded and full of crap. What dense rock did you crawl out from under?

Fyi, Kirpal was just another Sant mat cult guru, Thakur was a sick sexual predator, a pervert, a violent beater of young women, and a very demented child abuser. The evidence and proof for this is quite clear and quite substantial. And Baljit, well he is following right in Thakur's footsteps.

Von Beck Jr., you are one very sorry-ass dupe and in serious denial if you think that Thakur was anything more than a very disturbed, perverted, and violent SOB and a thus a complete fraud. I witnessed his slimey sexual abuse and horrific physical violence in Dehra Dhun, India long before you ever even heard of the the scum-bag. ... And according to witnesses, apparently Baljit is turning out to be little or no better.

I was initiated by Sant Thakar Singh, but I left before all the bad publicity began. I just did not connect with Thakar. I saw light on initiation - but so what? There was this one lady who said she heard the sound of bagpipes - so Thakar told her that her soul was reaching Sach Khand. I said it could not be because she has not even left the body. Thakar said it did not matter. She seemed to be so happy.
This is an example of hou gullible the disciples become. What Thakar was saying was actually total bullshit - but would anyone dare to question the 'master'?

Personally I cannot figure out how Thakar and the movement he created still managed to gain followers. I was in with the 'in-crowd' at the time - and they all left. The german 'wolfeing' led the way by confronting Thakar directly and Thakar admitted everything - and this was all public knowledge. How could anyone continue to follow this path - when the path itself clearly says that a master cannot be subject to the pull of sex and lower desires. Yet people still follow like sheep.

Hi, i was initiated to Sant Mat by Satguru Sirio Carrapa and i've seen some other initiations by Him.
To all the people it was given an experience of Light and one of Sound during initiation.
And everybody say (me too) that many other experiences happens often.
In particular for me, i have Sound experiences just every time i desire and i've met the Radiant Form many times.
Perhaps you know a lot of Beas organization but not so much about other Sant Mat Masters.
It is not a problem (not for me, and i suppose not for you) but is not automatically "true" that some thing wasn't working for you, and in just one of the MANY places in which is present, and SO it is a trick or a lie.

sant mat is a good way of living for sure

Dear OshoRobbins, please, could you elaborate about the methods you employed in order to achive the results you achived?

Well I have a very different story. I was initiated over 25 years ago, and I have experienced extraordinarily profound transcendental spiritual states and profund self-realization.... but NOT at all as a result of doing Sant mat meditation.

It would be really nice to hear about it.

Hi Brian and everyone..

I dont know how I bumped into this page. I was looking for something else. But I couldn't stop reading it all including the comments.

This is a beautiful discussion. I can only say if you have given 30 years to this path I bow you with respect and reverence.

As a dear friend if I could request you to please give one more day of your life to this and meet Mr Ishwar Puri or attend one of his satsangs that could change your life entirely.

Details about him you can find at

Please if you you meet him do let me know your experience. I will wait email me at [email protected]

Here's a Google translation for English speakers of the following comment in Spanish:
Hi Brian If you do not know Spanish, I hope you make an effort to read me. If it were not for the experiences I've had I would agree.

But throughout all this time, when I've been disappointed by the slow progress in meditation, I have always come to the conclusion that it is my responsibility for non-delivery and especially the lack of practice.

If you do not meditate at least two hours and a half, and say simran throughout the day, you're lost. Thank God I had the experience needed to know: Sant mat is as high Without the Guru there is no salvation (the illusion is strong enough to do it alone)

Satsang is powerful, fills us with incredible energy and gives us the momentum to continue. Do not give up, try an alternative Maestro! 30 are too many to throw them away.
Hola Brian
Si no sabes español, espero que hagas un esfuerzo por leerme.
Si no fuera por las experiencias que he tenido te daría la razón. Pero a lo largo de todo este tiempo, cuando me he sentido decepcionada por el lento progreso en la meditación, siempre he llegado a la conclusión que es mi responsabilidad por la falta de entrega y sobre todo la falta de práctica. Si no meditas mínimo las dos horas y media, y dices el simran a lo largo del dia, estas perdido.
Gracias a Dios he tenido las experiencias necesarias para saber que:
Sant mat es lo mas alto
Sin el guru no hay salvación ( la ilusión es tan fuerte como para lograrlo solos)
El satsang es poderoso, nos llena de una energía increíble y nos da el impulso necesario para continuar.

No te des por vencido, inténtalo con otro Maestro !
30 años son demasiados para tirarlos a la basura.

Dear Mr Hines,

I am a disciple of Gurinder Singh. I respect you for candidly expressing your opinion online, which, no doubt, gets you many haters. I also respect you for putting in so much meditation over the years and for writing a book for the Masters. I am in a position to prove to you that the Path is real using modern scientific inventions, should you be interested. I was going inside (Astral plane) before I was initiated through the use of scientific devices and so when I was getting onto the path I could understand that what RSSB was saying was real- the books were putting words to the experiences I was already having. Have you heard of a "tachyon"? It is a sub-atomic particle that travels faster than the speed of light. It is through these sub-atomic particles that I was first able to see the mists of the Astral Plane.

Check out "Advanced Tachyon Technologies, Santa Rosa, California"

All the best brother.


p.s.- no need to be a hater

Your devotion to Sant mat was exemplary. I find your first hypothesis more plausible, that your guru, being a good disciple of Baba Swang, wasn't the true master who could help you. Otherwise, you didn't write so much about yourself, as one merge into love and lose his ego after so many years of guided meditation. You might know Sant Kirpal Singh. I wish you were initiated by him.
Surat Shabd yoga is working, you should find the true guru, who could help you.

Hi My name is Mel,
I was initiated by Sant Ji in 1982, I was a horrible mediator and married a woman who liked to eat meat. When I met my sociology professor he took me to see Nina Gitana. It was there I found Kirpal Singh. The only problem was he was dead. Being a young philosophy student doing all kinds of drugs to find my way, I took initiation. This was the era of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I too meditated for 30 years and had a similar experience to yours. However, I was watching a YouTube video by Iswar Puri https://youtu.be/Fg3NjfKYaT0 that taught me how to see light and breakthrough to the other side on the 6th floor. Is there anything else in life that is better?

"Is there anything else in life that is better?"

I like to stare at the wall, Mel. It's the path to the highest enlightenment.

Just staring at things like walls is the best.

Something about waves and oceans and a guru agreeing with me. Money? All that stuff.

Just staring. Always staring. Only staring.

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