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May 15, 2007

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Here here.

Well said, and a very moving piece.

Thanks.....and oh, congratulations on the Grandchild!....

And Brian, this by far your best post to date.

I am sorry if i was offensive.

Ander, you weren't offensive. No problems, mate. I said I was fired up, not offended. You helped bring me in touch with some parts of me, some memories, that needed to be touched.

For that, I'm grateful. Not offended. Keep on firing away. Didn't someone once say, "Our critics are our best friends?"

Thanks Brian for writing this..
Important Post..!

there is a greek proverb that says

" i dont want friends who always agree with me.My shadow can do that perfectly"

I realised though that this internet domain can be real, with real consequences, something that i never really comprehended up to now.

respect

That last paragraph sums it up. In one swoop all the nit-picking is left in the dust! I am almost ready for another subject now, leaving the man with the bandage around his head and plenty facial hair alone.

How does one know one's been on a path past the shelf-life? One feels as if one has sat in a luke warm bath shedding cells too long. The soap is soft and the mind is vaguely uncomfortable, unfocused and in the same state as the soap.

Meanwhile, back on the subject of seva:

http://www.peacearchnews.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=44&cat=23&id=984586&more=

Dear Brian,

While I accept your statement that you were "not offended" by ander's posting, it certainly seemed to me that you were "offended." You were (it, at least, "seemed" to me) quite offended at having put thirty-some years of devotion into a belief-system and set of practices that did not effect the result(s) that you, apparently, thought they would. Your "faith" seems not to have paid off - at least, once more, not in the way you believed it should have. That's why you are a "heretic" outside the faith-group (= "cult") now.

Live and learn.

Robert Paul Howard

RPH, or anyone,
I think something that is not often openly admitted by many 'heretics' of the RS faith is that they are pissed off. They were fed a platter full of dogma and lies to which they devoted a considerable portion of their lives. They are pissed at the master for his deception and at themselves for being naive enough to buy into it.

Brian hit the nail on the head when he said that the master either was (1)a liar, or (2)ungenerous. Well, the RS party line would be that the master is not ungenerous and certainly not a liar. Rather, it is the disciple's fault who has not earned the master's grace because they are still impure in some way, or have a heavy karmic load that must be cleared, or they aren't meditating enough, etc. etc. There is always an excuse for the master not delivering the promised goods. Can he? I never saw any evidence of this which is no surprise to me now.

Once my head cleared and I broke through the fog, I was relieved, but the entity, Bob, was pissed off at times for reasons described. I don't feel pissed off anymore. That was long ago. However..

I still have an odd attraction to hearing what people have to say about this path (and others), probably because of my many years of association with it and I know it well. I find it interesting in the light of my current awareness. It seems to be my small role now to offer a different perspective to those in transition who may be ready to move on.

(I'm sorry for the double entry, but for some unknown reason my post appeared in the wrong section, so I am repeating it hear.)

Brian, I've read many of your Sant Mat posts with interest. As an initiate from the 70's myself, I can understand most of the questions you raise, though I don't necessarily share your conclusions.

You say that you feel justified in complaining about Sant Mat, and yet in the same breath you share with us how many years you have dedicated to meditation and seva. I say, "yet", because to someone who has struggled for decades merely to sit every now and again, the fact that you have attended to meditation so diligently is, to my mind, a very great blessing. You can feel satisfied in knowing you have done your best, your conscience can be clear. I almost envy your justifiable complaining, because I do not have such luxury, as I only have myself to blame for any apparent lack of progress.

There is much talk of lack of experience in meditation, but there is the other side of the coin to consider. The fantastic light and sound show comes with strings attached. Experience it once, and you "pay the price" by being overwhelmed by that all-consuming love and intense longing of which hints are given in the literature. This is a path of love, after all, so that should not come as a surprise, but to the unprepared soul, such intensity of love is difficult - if not impossible - to digest, and the result may be a desperate escape back into the mire of the world and its attractions. If you have given 30 years of conscientious effort, then it sounds to me that you have been prepared, and you may be throwing in the towel just when you stand to reap the greatest rewards.

Your indignation is justifiably righteous.

Personally I think it’s criminal of the Radha Soami Gurus to perpetuate they’re holier than thou charade on innocent, decent, humble and just plain good people.

Satsangi’s need to fight back for their very own lives.

Reminds me of a simple old song.


Killing Me Softly With His Song
( Roberta Flack )

Strumming my pain with his fingers,
Singing my life with his words,
Killing me softly with his song,
Killing me softly with his song,
Telling my whole life with his words,
Killing me softly with his song ...

I heard he sang a good song, I heard he had a style.
And so I came to see him to listen for a while.
And there he was this young boy (insert Perfect Living Master), a stranger to my eyes.

Strumming my pain with his fingers,
Singing my life with his words,
Killing me softly with his song,
Killing me softly with his song,
Telling my whole life with his words,
Killing me softly with his song ...

Mysti,

I hardly agree with your patronizing and typically weak assessment of where Brian is at, nor do I agree with the supposed "greatest rewards" that you present here as a kind of Santmat 'carrot on a stick'.

So who do you think you are fooling? ... Certainly not myself and others here, and I seriously doubt that Brian is either, otherwise he would not have written as candidly and insightful as he has.

In any case, thirty years is way way beyond long enough to have chased the RS 'carrot on the stick'.

Or maybe its because you really just don't get it. Yes. I think you are still needing to rationalize, defend, and justify the Santmat meditation hype and the RS guru cult because you are still lingering in its web of dogma and myth.

If you had actually read Brian's article with an open-mind, then you might have gained a deeper and broader perspective than you have heretofore by yourself alone.


Mysti,
I'm not Brian, and I appologise for butting in.

You speak of "progress". Who is it that progresses to where? At any moment is there anywhere but here? Being here, can you find who/what it is that would progress? Certainly it would not be the transitory thoughts, memories and concepts that form the illusory sense of 'you'. That which remains cannot 'progress' to where/what it is because it already is that!

And if we did find ourselves overwhelmed in a place of light and sound, wouldn't that be exactly what we are on the path for? To be in that, to be that? To say that we don't have/aren't given that experience because we couldn't handle it is absurd, because that is precisely what the supposed goal is in Sant Mat.. to be in/of that light and sound. If we are drops of that ocean, shouldn't it be natural to be there? After all that's supposed to be our 'home'.

You see, this is just another rationalization/excuse for lack of experience of the grandiose regions, the promised land of sant mat to which we escape from this fetid world.
I know, "the master knows best when we can handle it." "We still have karma to work out in the world and if we are in bliss we won't carry out our duties.", blah blah. What a load!!!

This meditation to earn some future reward is like a dog chasing its tail. The dog already is what it is. The glasses you are searching for are sitting on your nose. There's your reward!

tao,

>>I hardly agree with your patronizing and typically weak assessment of where Brian is at,

You are welcome to disagree. It is a personal assessment only, and I may be entirely wrong. I am sorry if I came across as patronizing, as that is not what I was feeling.

>>nor do I agree with the supposed "greatest rewards" that you present here as a kind of Santmat 'carrot on a stick'.

I mentioned a reward only because Brian himself seemed to be looking for one in his meditation. Why else would there be the complaints?

>>So who do you think you are fooling? ... Certainly not myself and others here, and I seriously doubt that Brian is either, otherwise he would not have written as candidly and insightful as he has.

Fooling whom about what?

>>In any case, thirty years is way way beyond long enough to have chased the RS 'carrot on the stick'.

Some have chased it, some have run away from it. I was sharing myself as an example of the latter.

>>Or maybe its because you really just don't get it. Yes. I think you are still needing to rationalize, defend, and justify the Santmat meditation hype and the RS guru cult because you are still lingering in its web of dogma and myth.

I'm not sure what I wrote which allowed such depth of insight into my character, be it mistaken or not. This was my first post here.

>>If you had actually read Brian's article with an open-mind, then you might have gained a deeper and broader perspective than you have heretofore by yourself alone.

An open mind is always preferable. I thought I had understood Brian's message, and I responded accordingly. I welcome a "deeper and broader perspective", if there are any on offer. :)

Tucson Bob,

My messages are often ignored on forums and the like, so it is a change to have these quick responses, albeit challenging ones.

>>You speak of "progress". Who is it that progresses to where? At any moment is there anywhere but here? Being here, can you find who/what it is that would progress? Certainly it would not be the transitory thoughts, memories and concepts that form the illusory sense of 'you'. That which remains cannot 'progress' to where/what it is because it already is that!

These are all good questions, and I don't know that I have any right answer. My personal understanding of "progress" on the Sant Mat path is one of growing in conscious realization from the limiting and exclusive self-awareness to the boundless and inclusive shabd-awareness. We may already "be there", but unless we realize it consciously through direct perception, then how can our claim to "be there" be any more than an assertion of faith?

>>And if we did find ourselves overwhelmed in a place of light and sound, wouldn't that be exactly what we are on the path for? To be in that, to be that? To say that we don't have/aren't given that experience because we couldn't handle it is absurd, because that is precisely what the supposed goal is in Sant Mat.. to be in/of that light and sound. If we are drops of that ocean, shouldn't it be natural to be there? After all that's supposed to be our 'home'.

If our consciousness has been at this level all our life, what to say of many lives, then it is hardly "natural" to suddenly find oneself in an entirely different state of consciouness. We are in the habit of relating to this world in a particular way, we are used to certain emotions and tendency of responses. These habits are not so easy to un-learn and neither can we make that instant shift from one perception to another without adequate training. At least, that is my own understanding.

>>You see, this is just another rationalization/excuse for lack of experience of the grandiose regions, the promised land of sant mat to which we escape from this fetid world.

It may be a rationalization to you, but it is a reasonable explanation to me.

Mysti,

First off, your comments about Brian seem rather presumptious for someone who is admittedly so new here.


You wrote: "I am sorry if I came across as patronizing,"

That's more or less how you appeared to me.


"I mentioned a reward only because Brian himself seemed to be looking for one in his meditation. Why else would there be the complaints?"

You apparently missed the prior context. Brian said that his article was prompted by and a response to Ander... who apparently did not think Brian to be justified in his complaints about RSSB. It is Santmat in general and RS in specific which promises rewards and/or results from meditation. If you were familiar with Santmat, you would already know that. Moreover, Brian clearly stated his many justifications for complaining. If you disagree with those, then perhaps you should present something more substantial.


"Fooling whom about what?"

The others in this forum about the obvious flaws in Santmat & RS.


"Some have chased it, some have run away from it. I was sharing myself as an example of the latter."

Then why are you doubting someone like Brian and others of us here who have decades of personal experience with it.


"I'm not sure what I wrote which allowed such depth of insight into my character" ... "This was my first post here."

I don't know aything about your character, but I think you are making faulty presumptions about Brian and those of use who have significant criticisms about various dimensionsd of Santmat and the RS guru cult.


"An open mind is always preferable. I thought I had understood Brian's message, and I responded accordingly."

And just who is it that thinks they "understood"? Do you know who you are? ... If not really, until you do, you may not understand "Brian's message", or my comments either.


"I welcome a "deeper and broader perspective", if there are any on offer."

Then perhaps you should study the archives. You might also indicate your particular perspective, where it is that you are coming from.


Mysti,
We would be correct in saying that we are already there, but you are right in that without direct apperception of this we would be saying so out of faith or parroting some sage.

See who-what it is that you would have grow in this awareness you speak of and you may find there is no 'one' to realize any 'thing'. Reality is not a 'thing' as such nor is what you call 'me'(yourself) a thing except in split-mind. In whole-mind neither exists as an object. THAT for which you are looking is THIS which is looking. The trick is that an eye can't see itself, but keeps trying by shinning the beacon here, there, everywhere, but to no avail. As long as a 'me' looks, you will not see. There is not a 'me' looking, there is just looking and that's IT. To pursue spiritual practice, purify oneself, make vows, bow three times to the east, avoid rennet, etc. etc. is like an infinite ocean trying to empty water out of itself. There is nothing to be done about This which is as it is now, but yet isn't AS an object... because there is no 'one' to perceive it as such. We are our objective absence.

Keep in mind that pure non-conceptuality cannot be circumscribed with words (concepts). With them I miss the mark, which is no mark, every time.

Anami Purush- indescribable,nameless,formless, colorless, without attributes. NOW, WOW!!

Goodnight.

Misti
What is your concept of all-consuming love? Do you mean a sort of love that debilitates? The sort that's obsessive?

Also what gives you the impression that access to sound and light is such a different perspective that it needs some acclimatizing? What if, for those that experience it, it is a very natural, strengthening part of themselves. What if they do not particularly lust after a repeat experience?

tao,

>>It is Santmat in general and RS in specific which promises rewards and/or results from meditation. If you were familiar with Santmat, you would already know that.

I don't recall at any time being promised rewards or results from meditation, at least not in the form of spiritual experiences. Perhaps I misread or misheard all along, but what I thought meditation was all about was un-learning old habits of thinking, making the mind more receptive to the grace which is within all of us, and exercising the inner faculties of seeing and hearing. It is preparing the vessel, so to speak. As far as I know, there is no time limit set on how long this preparation may take.

>>Moreover, Brian clearly stated his many justifications for complaining. If you
disagree with those, then perhaps you should present something more substantial.

Brian is free to complain all he likes. I was merely pointing out a different
perspective. Brian considered 30 years of meditation without results a justification for complaint, whereas I see his efforts as a great blessing regardless of the result. One sees the cup half empty, the other sees it half full. It's not a disagreement, just an alternative way of considering the same facts.

>>Then why are you doubting someone like Brian and others of us here who have decades of personal experience with it.

It is not that I am doubting Brian's or anyone else's experience, but if I were to ignore my own experiences in favor of what is presented here as one version of the reality of sant mat, then would I not be doing the very thing against which some of you protest?

>>You might also indicate your particular perspective, where it is that you are coming from.

That is exactly what I have been sharing - my own perspective. If it doesn't fit neatly into a box, then I cannot help that.

Tucson Bob

>>There is not a 'me' looking, there is just looking and that's IT. To pursue spiritual practice, purify oneself, make vows, bow three times to the east, avoid rennet, etc. etc. is like an infinite ocean trying to empty water out of itself. There is nothing to be done about This which is as it is now, but yet isn't AS an object... because there is no 'one' to perceive it as such. We are our objective absence.

As long as I perceive myself as a mere drop and not an infinte ocean, and as long as my thoughts and actions in this world are identifiable as that drop, then I think it would be wiser for me to play the part of a drop which is practicing to merge into the ocean. You telling me that I already am the ocean has no impact on my own perceptions of who or what I am.

Catherine,

>>What is your concept of all-consuming love? Do you mean a sort of love that debilitates? The sort that's obsessive?

If love debilitates, then I think it is hardly love. To me, love isn't a concept, but it is rather something which makes itself known in the heart and mind when the "self" or ego steps aside. That is not a very satisfactory description, but I find it hard to conceptualize.

>>Also what gives you the impression that access to sound and light is such a different perspective that it needs some acclimatizing?

Well, I have received this impression from the sant mat literature.

>>What if, for those that experience it, it is a very natural, strengthening part of themselves. What if they do not particularly lust after a repeat experience?

Then I am happy for them. :)

Brian, the answer to your lack of non-meditative experience I think is in your very answer.

You've never spent 18 years in solitude, in this life anyway. You have dissipated it away in marriage--good for you. But you can't have your cake and eat it too buddy.

Don't tell me that the people who lived solitary, celibate lives had nothing to report either.

You will probably have to return just to spend your life on the mountaintop alone.

Your co-struggler in Sant Mat

Netemara aka Heloise

Mysti,

You wrote:
"I don't recall at any time being promised rewards or results from meditation, at least not in the form of spiritual experiences. Perhaps I misread or misheard all along,"

Apparently you have misread because the fact is that the books are permeated with that sort of thing.


"what I thought meditation was all about was un-learning old habits of thinking,..."

Well thats not what the RS books and gurus have said.


"...and exercising the inner faculties of seeing and hearing."

That is only one particular facet of the manipulation and mind-control that exists within the cult as a whole.


"It is preparing the vessel, so to speak."

Preparing for what? It sounds like you are quite obviously still a sucker and brain-washed by the manipulative RS cult dogma.


"As far as I know, there is no time limit set on how long this preparation may take."

Fyi, that is incorrect. It has been stated (and even promised) numerous times by RS publications, gurus, and in the satsangs, that it will happen "within four lifetimes". - And that is such an unbelievable and ridiculous load of rubbish.


"Brian considered 30 years of meditation without results a justification for complaint,"

That was merely only ONE of his many reasons and justifications.


"It is not that I am doubting....but if I were to ignore my own experiences..."

Your experiences are not really the issue here. And your own personal subjective experiences don't prove anything either.


"...in favor of what is presented here as one version of the reality of sant mat"

Brian is not presenting any such "version of the reality of sant mat", nor am I. ... The Sant mat literature and the RSSB cult and guru itself is what is presenting your so-called "reality of sant mat".


"then would I not be doing the very thing against which some of you protest?"

But you are. You are promoting and defending Sant mat dogma.


I wrote: "You might also indicate your particular perspective, where it is that you are coming from."

You responded with: "That is exactly what I have been sharing - my own perspective. If it doesn't fit neatly into a box, then I cannot help that."

That's not what I asked you. What I meant was this:

What is your spiritual perspective? Where exactly are you at over-all with regards to Sant mat? You have been somewhat vague and not really very clear about that. So what actually is your position with regard to Sant mat and the RSSB guru cult?


At least we were saved from this..

http://www.meat.org/index-1.asp?c=MYMblogaddru0307

Thanks Charan.

Netemara, are you saying that celibate people who live in isolation see the spiritual light? That's news to me. It would mean that monasteries and nunneries must be filled with enlightened beings.

In my experience, sex has nothing or very little to do with meditation or living a spiritual life (whatever that means). Except, I've noted that when people are sexually frustrated, they become bigger jerks.

Maybe you were being facetious. I've been known to take commenters seriously when they were just joking.

Anyway, I doubt that the meaning of life is to spend it on a mountaintop alone. If this were the case, God really screwed up by putting so many people on Earth.

I understand the ideals put forth here Brian, and also agree that you have every justifiable reason to be disenfranchised with the RS meditation practice.

My question is; how do you rationalize the purpose for this grand illusion that the "cult gurus" are purportedly executing on the "poor, humble, good people of the world"?

I've been to Dera, and seen the way that these men live. These men don't live like Jerry Fallwell or the Pope. They don't live like the Mormon elite (which actually DO require 10% of your income).

I've been around RS my entire life and have been an initiate for a few years now and I've never once been encouraged to give money or anything else to the Satsang.

If not money, the what could be the possible motive behind such a great deception?

If anything is damaging the RS faith, it is the people in the "Satsang" who engage in hearsay, or say things like "only hang out with other satsangis". I have listened to countless people act as if they are the authority on this spiritual subject or "The Master said this or that". It's all bullocks and I realize that.

I wonder if you ever asked your own Guru why you hadn't experienced anything inside? Was that your motivation for initiation? To see fancy colors and different spiritual realms? If that were the case, then I think that despite your 30 years, you have utterly missed the point.

You say in your post that you truly loved your Guru, but I say false. If you truly loved anybody, you would remain faithful to them no matter what circumstances you found yourself in. True Love is unconditional. Perhaps you felt love at the time, or dedication at the time, but love is not fleeting, true love is timeless and immortal and surpasses human emotion.

I wish you all the best in your future happiness.

I understand the ideals put forth here Brian, and also agree that you have every justifiable reason to be disenfranchised with the RS meditation practice.

My question is; how do you rationalize the purpose for this grand illusion that the "cult gurus" are purportedly executing on the "poor, humble, good people of the world"?

I've been to Dera, and seen the way that these men live. These men don't live like Jerry Fallwell or the Pope. They don't live like the Mormon elite (which actually DO require 10% of your income).

I've been around RS my entire life and have been an initiate for a few years now and I've never once been encouraged to give money or anything else to the Satsang.

If not money, the what could be the possible motive behind such a great deception?

If anything is damaging the RS faith, it is the people in the "Satsang" who engage in hearsay, or say things like "only hang out with other satsangis". I have listened to countless people act as if they are the authority on this spiritual subject or "The Master said this or that". It's all bullocks and I realize that.

I wonder if you ever asked your own Guru why you hadn't experienced anything inside? Was that your motivation for initiation? To see fancy colors and different spiritual realms? If that were the case, then I think that despite your 30 years, you have utterly missed the point.

You say in your post that you truly loved your Guru, but I say false. If you truly loved anybody, you would remain faithful to them no matter what circumstances you found yourself in. True Love is unconditional. Perhaps you felt love at the time, or dedication at the time, but love is not fleeting, true love is timeless and immortal and surpasses human emotion.

I wish you all the best in your future happiness.

FUzzylogiCK,

Your logic is indeed very fuzzy.

First, my answer to your question is this: Religious power and the need to perpetuate a cult system wherein the guru is the complete authority.

Second, the current RS guru has expensive vacation homes in various places and jet planes, etc etc... all paid for by you know who. i don't call that living frugally.

Third, the sangats (at least in America) are always being encouraged to donate money.

Forth, what is the motive? Answer: Again, religious power, authority, recognition, and self-importance, plus a globe-trotting lifesyle where tens of thousands of gullible satsangis are bowing in respect.

Fifth, the heresay prevalent in the satsang meetings is indeed damaging, but not nearly so as the charade of the phony master "sant".

Sixth, I certainly don't hink Brian needed Charan's opinion and typically standard answer about the reasons for lack of inner experiences. And I also seriously doubt that Brian's over-all intent in taking up the path of Santmat was merely "To see fancy colors and different spiritual realms". I think it is really you who has "missed the point".

You say: "If you truly loved anybody, you would remain faithful to them no matter what circumstances you found yourself in."

That is absurd and foolish. Loving and serving a guru has nothing to do with getting down to the truth about them latter on. You can love and respect someone as an individual, but when you realize that that someone is not what they pretended to be or were purported to be, then that love may change when the truth about them becomes clear. One shoiuld not simply remain blind to the truth. On the other hand, you would have people like Brian remain loyal and loving to a guru who was found to be a bit of a fraud.

You wrote: "I wish you all the best in your future happiness."

Well I just don't believe you. I think you are a phony, and a brain-washed sucker for the RS guru-cult and its dogma.


Dear Brian,

Although it may not properly fall within the topic here currently being discussed (and its "words," "concepts," and "images" seem to differ from those of many herein), I offer the following: http://www.globalseeker.com/users/interview/interview_paced.html

Robert Paul Howard

What I could have done with these hands. Such promise: piano concerti; precise surgery; eloquent cuisine; massage. Alas, I type, and drum, and guide my children. Nothing like the potential that was in my hands when I was a child myself.

And my feet: I stopped dancing long ago; stopped hiking into the wilds; these feet promised so many miles, so much access to worlds only imagined now. I can kick. I can pick up pencils with my toes! ...but not ballet! Nothing like what may have been.

So I continue to use my hands and feet, utilise them, employee them, but they are not treated like the pathways to godhood, like they could have been...

Unbelievably lucky to have hands and feet that work, in just this way, that have grown with me and carry the weight of everything that I have become. The entire universe is trod and fondled by only these hands and feet.

Is there a light show of hope? Is there a universal tone of expectation?

Will I really be my most grim instructor? I have been served completely by being!

YES Yes Yes,we are saved from meat!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND one can be thankfull for that for ever!!!Absolutely indeed!!!
Thanks to maharaji'Charan Singh!!

tao

>>Your experiences are not really the issue here. And your own personal subjective experiences don't prove anything either.

You are right, my experiences are not the issue here, but I was responding originally to the "personal subjective experiences" related by Brian regarding lack of results in meditation. If personal subjective experiences "don't prove anything", as you say, then how can anyone's lack of results prove something?

>>What is your spiritual perspective? Where exactly are you at over-all with regards to Sant mat? You have been somewhat vague and not really very clear about that. So what actually is your position with regard to Sant mat and the RSSB guru cult?

If I had to be pinned down to a position, I would say that I have an open mind to the Sant Mat path, and unless I am convinced that, for me, a better path lies elsewhere, I will continue to stumble along this one. If that makes me "a sucker and brain-washed by the manipulative RS cult dogma", then so be it. I cannot envision a richer and more gratifying way to lead my life, so there is no compelling reason for me to switch streams.

For those keeping score the unflappable mysti is holding her/his own against the relentless tao.

Hello Robert Paul Howard,

Jeez, how did they manage to get that interview? I've been trying to get that exclusive for years, but all I got was a 'don't call Us, We'll call you'?

I would have done a better job, too. They let the Big G of easy.

For example, when they asked 'why is there so much hate in the world', and He answered 'it comes from fear and ignorance', I thought it was a typical politicians answer, deflecting any real nitty gritty discourse.

I would have come back with a hard 'yeah, but G Man, why is there so much fear and ignorance in the world? Wouldn't you say you've done a pretty lousy job with this creation of Yours?'

But, the G Unit would have probably struck me down with lightening, or sent a plague of locusts to my home or something.....

Seriously though, nice intention and message though......even if a bit wishy washy :0)

Dear Brian,

I was wondering, purely for intellectual curiosity, if you could answer the following questions, if it's not too personal? It is regarding your meditation:

1) Did you manage to sit 3 hours without moving a muscle?

2) Did you ever do a week or weekend intensive with 8+ hours sitting?

3) Did you do it at 'amrit vela' (early hours just after awakening
after 6 hours sleep, when biologically primed to 'attain'...REM
periods etc)

Thanks

(ps, I'm not trying to prove a point or anything, I'm just genuinely interested in the technicalities of this matter on an impersonal level, if you see what I mean)

wow I'm surprised to see the comments that I see on the validity off the path. In thirty years you've never heard the sound? or seen the light? You ask for progress like you deserve it and that you've been duped while it appears to me from the statements in your article that the ego is alive and in full force. You said you gave it your all and so maybe you did brother, but did you really give yourself. Willingness to sacrifice your life doesn't even equate to the giving up of self. Of learning to accept all that comes our way. And thirty years is just a drop in the bucket after millions of lives in this creation. In this path there really can only be one and that is master. All else, desires, expectations, wife, family, self, etc. must be given to him.They can't really exist to us if we want to make progress and of course meditation has to be perfect concentration with no outside thoughts intruding for the whole 2 and a half hours. Maybe you were able to achieve this, I do not know, but I do know that meditation shouldn't be done with the object of achieving anything in mind. It has to be done out of love for master, and only for him. Not to gain anything not to see him inside but just because of your love for him . By all means though you can complain all you want about the path but it won't change anything, and maybe next life things will work out better for you. Here's hoping you find what your looking for, peace and love and good luck brother.

To the person who responded to my post,

Although I question the original poster's motives for his current belief structure, the all out personal attack launched by you was uncalled for.

You know not my background nor intellectual endeavors, so to call me a "brainwashed sucker for the RS-guru cult" is really an unfair and foolish assumption.

I have spent half of my life seeking for spiritual truths in all forms of written and experienced forms. I made a complete intellectual discovery at the hands of nearly everything that I could absorb before adopting the current RS guru as my personal guru.

In that personal experience (in the United States) I have never been requested to give money, nor has it ever been implied that I was supposed to give money. When I journeyed to Dera, I paid nothing. I stayed at the Dera for free and ate for free and did not feel any obligation to work or pay for anything during my stay.

When I have gone to see the Guru, I have paid nothing but my time. In all, the Guru has never asked ANYTHING of me other than for me to do my meditation. I wonder at your comment and wonder how a a self-aggrandizing, jet-setting, worship loving phony-sant asks nothing of me but for me to do something to help myself.

Why does this afore-mentioned phony saint turn down people for initiation? I've seen this with my own eyes. What purpose would a man as you describe him not want as many disciples as possible? Wouldn't that just mean more revenue stream and more "adoring bowers"? It doesn't fit the mold to me as someone seeking power and vacation homes.

What proof do you have that those vacation homes weren't paid for by his own money? It is a tenant of a Guru to be self-sufficient, so if you are offering proof to your accusation, I would welcome it with open mind.

If this organization is meant to be this great bearer of profit for the Guru, then why is the literature given away for production cost, while Dianetics is a $30 book? It's easy to see the fallacy behind movements like Scientology, but I have yet to find anything that disproves that these men are who others say they are (I've never heard the current RS Guru refer to himself as a Guru, but only as a disciple of his Guru).

I am not attacking any beliefs that any authors of these posts hold, but I am genuinely seeking information and do genuinely wish Brian and even the character attacking responder to my first comment happiness in any endeavor.

Mysti,

But I never indicated that my experiences were, or are "the issue" at all. Nor did I ever say that my "personal subjective experiences" "prove anything". So please get your facts and your interpretations correct and don't misrepresent me.

You wrote: "...how can anyone's lack of results prove something?"

Again, I did not ever say or indicate that they do.

You wrote: "I would say that I have an open mind to the Sant Mat path, and unless I am convinced that, for me, a better path lies elsewhere, I will continue to stumble along this one."

Thank you for making your position clear. And that does indeed tell me something about where you are at and why it is that you are defending Sant mat. It also tells me that you are clearly not very familiar with some other unique spiritual orientations that are in many ways quite superior to Sant mat.

You wrote: "I cannot envision a richer and more gratifying way to lead my life, so there is no compelling reason for me to switch streams."

To each his own. I just hope that your supposed "richer and more gratifying way" actually pays off for you sooner rather than after spending a lifetime seeking it.

In that regard, please explain if you would, just how it has it been so "rich and gratifying"?

And what is your reason for seeking and pursuing that path?

And what do you see as being your own goal in pursuing Sant mat?

And have you ever actually considered questions like these?

Just why are you believing and doing whatever it is that you are believing and doing?

What are you seeking? ...and... Why are you seeking?


R Blog,

Only in your dreams.


To FUzzylogiCK,

Fyi, I did not "launch" an "all out personal attack".

You wrote: "to call me a "brainwashed sucker for the RS-guru cult" is really an unfair..."

I said that I don't believe you, and "phony" is the way you appeared to me, and "a sucker for the RS guru-cult" is in fact what you are.

You wrote: "I have spent half of my life seeking for spiritual truths in all forms of written and experienced forms. I made a complete intellectual discovery at the hands of nearly everything that I could absorb before adopting the current RS guru as my personal guru."

All I can say about that is I think it's really sad that after all you have sought, that you have ended up with such a total fraud for a guru. I truly feel sorry for you. I hope that you will wake up and come to your senses soon.

And also fyi, "money seva" as it is called, is a integral part of RSSB and RSSB-A. Maybe they just have not hit you up for some cash yet. But sooner or later, they will.

You wrote: "When I journeyed to Dera, I paid nothing. I stayed at the Dera for free and ate for free and did not feel any obligation to work or pay for anything during my stay."

So what. That doesn't mean jack. Just because you got some free food and lodging does not mean that the guru is legit or that the path is effective.

You wrote: "the Guru has never asked ANYTHING of me other than for me to do my meditation."

He should not be asking ANYTHING of you. Just what is he giving you? Absolutely nothing. He asks you to do this and do that, but he himself gives you nothing. The guru is supposed to be the GIVER, not the asker or taker.

My advice: Wake up and become self-empowered. Quit running after phony gurus. Live your own unique life

You wrote: "I wonder ... how a ... sant asks nothing of me but for me to do something to help myself."

Again, he should not be asking anything of you, and also, you simply don't know that any of it is really "helping" yourself. Like aI said, you are a sucker. In other words, you have bought into something which has no evidence or proof of its validity or reality.

You wrote: "Why does this afore-mentioned phony saint turn down people for initiation?"

Because he is a fraud and he is making a charade. Also, initiation is all bogus. No one needs to be "initiated" in order to meditate. RS initiation is nothing but a guru-cult maneuver.

You wrote: "What purpose would a man as you describe him not want as many disciples as possible?"

He already has far more than he could ever reasonably handle. He doesn't need more, he just need gullible believers.

You wrote: "Wouldn't that just mean more revenue stream and more "adoring bowers"?"

No, its just part of his charade.

You wrote: "It doesn't fit the mold to me as someone seeking power and vacation homes."

He already has power over the gullible, and vacation homes.

You wrote: "What proof do you have that those vacation homes weren't paid for by his own money?"

Because I know for a fact that that he did not have a lot of money before (in Spain), and he has certainly not worked a job since he became the head gangster at the Dera. The money came from donations. Furthetmore, if he is a genuine "sant" then why does ne need expensive vacation homes and jet planes? Answer: Because he is a fraud and materialistic.

You wrote: "...if you are offering proof to your accusation, I would welcome it with open mind."

That information is available on the net if you search. You can start here:

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com

You wrote: "why is the literature given away for production cost..."

Because books are quite cheap to print.

You wrote: "I have yet to find anything that disproves that these men are who others say they are (I've never heard the current RS Guru refer to himself as a Guru, but only as a disciple of his Guru)."

Then you have not looked very deeply. Also, he typically does not call himself a guru, but he certainly allows others to call him a sad-guru, a saint, a perfect master, a GIHF, and so on. Yet there is absolutley no evidence of any of those labels being true. None whatsoever.

You wrote: "I am genuinely seeking information"

Well you should have done that before you sold your soul to RSSB and its phony guru. However, you can still search out and learn the truth now.

"and do genuinely wish ... the ... responder to my first comment happiness in any endeavor."

Thank you.

Geoffrey,

Dude, you are really lost! You don't have a clue what this is about.


The blog was enlightening. We spend eternity to search the divine faith which is only maya. Turn back... there is your family, your friends and your love. What else do you want? Life is all about living. Just live it.

Brian Hines---I read your article on complaining---I complain all the time about Sat Mat. I'm just a fledgling on the Path-(since 2000)
it's guys like you who keep guys like me going. I've always been afraid that every one was ahead of me, and perhaps they are,but, your article gave me some hope. At first I was criticle of your comments--(to another Satsangi of course----I didn't blog it because I am spiritual-(a devout coward)[HUMOR] I would not know you from Adam-(accept you dress different)--someday we may meet each,,I hope so. This blog is hap hazard------
but it's the best I can do.

Manjit, regarding my meditation, you asked:

"1) Did you manage to sit 3 hours without moving a muscle?

2) Did you ever do a week or weekend intensive with 8+ hours sitting?

3) Did you do it at 'amrit vela' (early hours just after awakening
after 6 hours sleep, when biologically primed to 'attain'...REM
periods etc)"

Well, I'd give a qualified "yes" to 1 and 2, and a sure "yes" to 3. Over the years and decades I've pretty much done it all when it comes to meditation.

I gather that the question behind your question is whether I failed to do that special thing which would have put me over the top of Mount Meditation Success.

There are so many "special things." Who knows? Buddhists have their meditation ways, Christians other ways, Hindus still others. Etc, etc.

They all produce some effect. Naturally. When you tinker with the contents of consciousness, consciousness is going to change. Like it does every moment anyway.

Before I was initiated into RSSB I studied Yoga with a teacher who would hold weekend meditation retreats. So there I definitely spent more than eight hours doing intensive meditation.

I found that if you stress the body and mind enough, you enter into a different state of consciousness. This isn't anything spiritual; get lost in the woods, don't eat or drink for a couple of days, and you will feel very different also.

I'm deeply skeptical of practices that require extreme behavior to get results in meditation. Lengthy sensory deprivation, for example, is known to produce sights and sounds. The brain can't tolerate nothingness, so it fills the void with its own creations.

My criticism of RSSB meditation is justified, in my opinion, because it claims to be a science. In science, certain results follow certain actions. If you do the experiment as instructed, you should observe such and such.

Of course, in RSSB (as in other religions), caveats abound. Could take four lifetimes. Results could be saved up for you until after death. Progress could be happening but not evident. And so on.

Maybe. But this isn't science. It is religion. Jesus will meet you after you die. Seventy-two virgins are waiting in paradise. And so on. I'm no longer into "maybe's." I'm into reality.

Thanks Brian. Interesting.

There really was no 'question behind the question' though. Just am intellectually curious.

Regarding your comment about stressing the body enough to cause alterations in consciousness, I would say is actually more or less the point of some (if not all, in one way or another) forms of meditation (see Zen & the Brain by James Austin, or something by Aquila & Newberg). And, stressing the body through sleep & food deprivation, intensive meditation, drumming, dancing etc have been used for thousands of years to induce altered states of consciousness throughout the world.

Me personally, I'm not making a value or meaning interpretation of whether this is 'good' or 'spiritual' or not, rather just making an observation.

Actually, personally and in practice, I'm really quite into something else altogether, which to be honest is little known in RS circles. Meditation on 'pure awareness', which actually transforms daily conscious experience from the roots up, as well as producing some extremely 'blissful' or total peace experiences during the meditation period. This is more akin to the Zen or Dzogchen or Advaitic self-enquiry 'practice'.

It's been a long time since I realised the cause and effect nature of meditation for certain experiences, and how such causality cannot really be anything to do with the 'Divine'. I'm with esteemed non-dualists such as Nisargadatta on that one!

So, I really wasn't asking a hidden question, as I don't consider the RS meditation to be my cup of tea! (though still knowing that Shabd and Light IS a reality for some)

Thanks again for sharing your experiences, and I for one think you are 'justified' to say what you like!.....

Why is it that anyone can comment on who a person is without experiencing meeting them?

This is what is wrong with blogs... everyone has an opinion, everyone hides behind a computer with some great knowledge, everyone can tell someone who they are easiy or disrespect each other without actually seeing with their own two eyes-without greeting a person in good old fashion face to face conversation and debate.

How can you say to a stranger "I think you are a phony, and a brain-washed sucker for the RS guru-cult and its dogma."

Thats a harsh view without meeting the person.

Fuzzylogic was trying to find answers to a faith that is being questioned. He was telling of his experience and ASKING questions to find out if any of what is said about his guru could be true. Why do we Americans have to be so harsh behind a computer?

As for meditation -- i think that comes within and depending on your beliefs depends on when you feel you have reached enlightenment. I believe that enlightenment is reached after lifetimes of meditation, karma, experiences etc.
We are souls in human form -- i don't 100% believe that a person can reach a special enlightenment in meditation being alive. However, they may be able to find peace within themselves to survive in this cruel world. And even after 30 years quitting something you wholeheartedly believed in to me (and only me) means that you were looking for "that all knowing" --you were looking for someone else to give you that "all knowing answer". Only you can find that answer (to whatever question you are seeking out) within yourself.
I don't believe in Gurus - however, it seems to me that (from the small amount of information I have gathered) that that particular Sant Mat guru was speaking for everyone to find the answers within them by meditating.

I am fuzzylogic's wife. We have many of the same spiritual paths and beliefs, however, I am not a Sant Mat nor do I believe in initiation of any kind.
Fuzzy Logic does not preach to anyone nor follow a guru around like a puppy dog. He practices consciousness, awareness, kindness. I have not experienced any of his fellow seekers acting as you have mentioned above. Just because there are negative sant mat's elsewhere does not make all sant mats bad people.

We live a simple american style that welcomes positive and happiness of any kind (and turn away from negative and bad karma). We have a wide range of friends who spiritual beliefs differ from each of ours. But they are our friends because we all accept each other as who we are in this lifetime.
So to out right call someone brain-washed or discredit their intellect without meeting them seems wrong to me. Don't you think that questioning even your own faith is good to do? People who question their faith every so often are "checking in" with themselves. That is a great thing. If more Americans did this maybe we would not be such a soul sucking christian hateful society.

That is all fuzzylogic is doing, Seeking answers - he does not want to follow a guru that is taking money to live a vast lifestyle. He was requesting proof (for he had never heard this before). He is questioning what you may have already questioned.

There is no need to feed hate through your words back to him (and i can only imagine what your response will be to me).

As all spirituality/religions it seems to me that man takes what they want to hear and pass on the information in their own words -- this becomes dogma.

No one knows truly knows what is after life -- however, we each take a belief, have faith in it to help us survive our everyday lives.

We need to stop being so judgmental of people and actually ask questions to know each other first.

I have said my peace - what ever comments are made, they are welcome. But I will not feed into the irrational harsh -- "but my way is the right way" attitude. I just wanted to stand up for a everyday sant mat I believe in... this coming from a person who does not believe in organizing any part of spiritual (religion) practices.

Wow, this post by Brian has had some effect & response!

Alexandria & Fzzylogic, don't take it personally. It takes all sorts to make the world go round, and this blog is no different. You've got to sift what you like from what you don't. Everyone on blogs and forums is really discussing with a imagined preconception they have of whom they are talking to, and in many cases we are just venting our own internal issues rather than effectively communicating with an 'other'. It's not always personal, pretty, or informative :)

Peace.

Tao,

>>So please get your facts and your interpretations correct and don't misrepresent me.

My reference was to Brian's experiences, but if my wording revealed a misrepresentation of you, then I am sorry and I will endeavour to take more care in any future dialogue.

>>It also tells me that you are clearly not very familiar with some other unique spiritual orientations that are in many ways quite superior to Sant mat.

Indeed, I may be quite ignorant of a large percentage of the other spiritual orientations which abound in the world. As to being superior to Sant Mat, the test is in the eating, in the practice, and I am not inclined to taste this and sample that without a compelling reason, without a spiritual hunger that is not being satisfied by the food in front of me.

>>In that regard, please explain if you would, just how it has it been so "rich and gratifying"?

I would if I could, but the answer requires either a book or a smile, I don't know which, and I don't really care.

>>And what is your reason for seeking and pursuing that path?

I never sought the sant mat path, but one day I simply found myself on it. That is literally how it happened. The initiation ceremony was merely a formality. As to pursuing it, I don't know if I can even say that is exactly what I am doing. Rather, I find that wherever I am and whatever I do, there it is, there is the path. It lies within me, so how can I leave it?

>>And what do you see as being your own goal in pursuing Sant mat?

I'm not a very goal-oriented person, but if I have a direction, it would be in the direction of love, unconditional love.

>>And have you ever actually considered questions like these?

In the early days on the path, yes, I asked many questions.

>>Just why are you believing and doing whatever it is that you are believing and doing?

Why does anyone believe and do what they are doing? It feels right to me, it hits the mark, it satisfies my reason, it feeds my hunger, it keeps me happy, it brings me peace and joy and love, and more love.

>>What are you seeking? ...and... Why are you seeking?

Love to the first question, and the second question, because I have barriers within myself to love.


Manjit wrote:

>>Everyone on blogs and forums is really discussing with a imagined preconception they have of whom they are talking to, and in many cases we are just venting our own internal issues rather than effectively communicating with an 'other'.

I agree with your observation. It seems far easier to project the shadow within ourselves onto someone else and then go about denouncing it and distancing ourselves from it to such an extent that we can justfiably disown it.

>>My criticism of RSSB meditation is justified, in my opinion, because it claims to be a science. In science, certain results follow certain actions. If you do the experiment as instructed, you should observe such and such.

So if one scientist performs a particular experiement and fails to obtain the results that a whole body of eminent scientists reports, the fault lies squarely with the body of scientists and their theories?

Mysti,
Perhaps the body of so-called eminent scientists isn't really so eminent. They put on a great air of authority that convinced the publishers of the scientific journal that they had conducted the experiment with consistent results when, in fact, they had not done so successfully. The scientists had to do this because there was a large organization giving adulation and generous research grants which they enjoyed and needed to be perpetuated. The student body of this organization accepted the journal as fact because the experiments sounded so wonderful. So they based their education upon them. They continued to give great respect to the so-called eminent scientists. Finally, after years of attempting to apply this baseless education in real life, some of the students spoke up and said it wasn't working. The 'eminent' scientists said that they simply weren't conducting the experiments correctly and that with persistence, and time, the desired results would be achieved. The students persisted, but after more years of failure and comparing their results with similar attempts by other students, they concluded that the teachings of the eminent scientists was flawed, or, to their horror, that after many years of time in wasted experimentation, the eminent scientists and their teachings were entirely bogus. They left the organization and began publishing their own research findings which caused potential investors in the organization to take pause and some current members to raise questions and become sceptical. The eminent scientists and their inner circle of supporters who received special perks in the organization had to put a stop to this and they put out directives to the student body that they not read or expose themselves to the publications of the former members because their findings would simply confuse them and interfere with proper experimentation. Of course some of the die-hard students refused to believe the findings of those who had left and continued to perform the experiments in the hope that they would someday work. Also, they felt secure in being part of the prestige of the organization and the perceived eminence of the head scientists, so they were reluctant to face the reality of what the former students had discovered.

Tao, I would have to disagree with you on that point and you are completely wrong on the money seva part as well. As all know money seva, or any seva of any kind is unnecessary. the only thing that matters is meditation. So many people seem to miss this point and see things that there mind wants them too. but to each there own.

Alexandria,

You wrote:
"Why is it that anyone can comment on who a person is without experiencing meeting them?"

Because of what they say and how they say it.


"everyone hides behind a computer", "without greeting a person in good old fashion face to face conversation and debate."

Thats a load of BS. No one is "hiding" here...at least not Brian, Tuscon Bob, Manjit, Edward, or myself and a couple others.


"How can you say to a stranger "I think you are a phony, and a brain-washed sucker for the RS guru-cult and its dogma.""

Because thats they way that poster appeared to be.


"Thats a harsh view without meeting the person."

I don't have to meet someone in person in order to sus out what they are saying and what they are pretending.


"Fuzzylogic was trying to find answers to a faith that is being questioned."

It didn't look that way. It looked like he was making a typically lame attempt at defending the RS guru-cult dogma.


"He was ... ASKING questions to find out if any of what is said about his guru could be true."

No he was not. He was challenging and attempting to repudiate the various well-founded criticisms of RS that are based in facts. He was foolishly defending a fraudulent guru and quasi religious cult. He is uninformed and so are you. He doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.


"Why do we Americans have to be so harsh behind a computer?"

There is no harshness here. But as we say: "If you cannot take the heat, then better stay out of the kitchen".


"As for meditation -- i think that comes within and depending on your beliefs depends on when you feel you have reached enlightenment."

Beliefs have nothing to do with enlightenment.


"I believe that enlightenment is reached after lifetimes of meditation, karma, experiences etc."

Well I am sorry for you, but that's your un-enlightened belief, and therefore your own problem. I would urge you not to remain trapped in such beliefs, but to open your mind and your heart and awaken to reality.


"We are souls in human form"

Another limiting concept.


"they may be able to find peace within themselves to survive in this cruel world."

Peace is already there all along. It doesn't come from elsewhere.


"And even after 30 years quitting something you wholeheartedly believed in to me"

I never said that I "believed' in anything, much less in Santmat/RS. Nor did I "quit" after 30 years. I simply and naturally ceased paying any attention to it, or involvement with it, after talking personally with Charan at the Dera a few times. I had already learned enough and knew that RS and the "master" myth held no value for me.


"...means that you were looking for "that all knowing" --you were looking for someone else to give you that "all knowing answer"."

Thats total BS. You know virtually nothing about me. And you don't know that I was never searching for anything. I had already, in a very profound sense, discovered the truth long before ever checking out RS. My involvement with RS was merely a study into a mystic meditation guru-cult.


"Only you can find that answer (to whatever question you are seeking out) within yourself.

Again, if you had been here for very long you would know that I am not seeking anything. I have absolutely no reason to.


"I don't believe in Gurus - however, it seems to me that (from the small amount of information I have gathered)"

Well its fairly obvious that you don't very much.


"...that that particular Sant Mat guru was speaking for everyone to find the answers within them by meditating."

How would you know that? You admittedly do not believe in gurus, and it is also obvious that you know little or nothing about Sant Mat gurus and what it is that they teach.

"I am fuzzylogic's wife. We have many of the same spiritual paths and beliefs, however, I am not a Sant Mat nor do I believe in initiation of any kind."

I really don't care who you are. I simply see that neither you nor Mr Fuzzy know much of anything about Sant Mat and the RS cult.

"Fuzzy Logic does not preach to anyone nor follow a guru around like a puppy dog."

Well apparently he sure as hell is following the phony RS guru.


"He practices consciousness, awareness, kindness."

Well good for him.


"I have not experienced any of his fellow seekers acting as you have mentioned above."

Well thats the way it may look from where you stand, but I don't think you have been around anywhere nearly long enough to determine that.


"Just because there are negative sant mat's elsewhere does not make all sant mats bad people."

I never said or implied that all "sant mats" were "bad people". And btw, RS initiates are called "satsangus", not "sant mats"... which is another indication that you don't know what you are talking about. Why don't you find something better to try to justify.

"We ... welcomes positive and happiness of any kind (and turn away from negative and bad karma)."

Thats real nice, but what does it have to do with the RS cult?


"...we all accept each other as who we are in this lifetime."

Thats nice too, but so what?


"So to out right call someone brain-washed ... seems wrong to me."

Thats your lack of understanding. According to what Fuzzy had said, thats exactly how he appeared to be... ie: brain-washed by RS dogma and its phony guru. You just really don't understand this do you?


"Don't you think that questioning even your own faith is good to do?"

I wouldn't know, I have no need for faith.


"People who question their faith every so often are "checking in" with themselves."

Are you suggesting that Fuzzy was 'checking his faith'? I don't see that he was at all. He was clearly here to challenge the critics.


"If more Americans did this maybe we would not be such a soul sucking christian hateful society."

This issue is not about Americans, Christians, or society.


"That is all fuzzylogic is doing, Seeking answers"

No I don't think so. He did not appear to be sincerely seeking answers. I can smell Radha Soami BS a mile away.


"-he does not want to follow a guru that is taking money to live a vast lifestyle. He was requesting proof (for he had never heard this before)."

He already admitted that he is following the RS guru, and he was defending it. I haved already steered him towards the evidence and proof. Here again are some well informed sites:

http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/

http://vm.mtsac.edu/~dlane/radhabook.html

Your Mr Fuzzy has yet to respond to any of that proof or to do any research. So again, you may be well intentioned, but you a very naieve and uninformed. Go study the info at those sites and tell Fuzzy to do so as well.


"He is questioning what you may have already questioned."

Well then bloody good for him. But then why is he still following the RS and its phony guru?


"There is no need to feed hate through your words back to him (and i can only imagine what your response will be to me)."

You have completely missed the point. I don't "hate" you or him. I am just presenting the facts which he is doubting, and in so doing he is blindly defending a dogmatic authoritarian religious meditation cult and its false guru.


"No one knows truly knows what is after life"

Perhaps, but you don't know what others may know.


"however, we each take a belief, have faith in it to help us survive our everyday lives."

Some people do, but Sant mat and RSSB is not at all about "help us survive our everyday lives". Its about believing in a false guru who is falsely presented as being a God in human form (GIHF) and a sat-guru. This belief is spiritually disempowering to all those who become followers and are trapped in its doctrine and dogma and false guru worship.

"We need to stop being so judgmental of people and actually ask questions to know each other first."

It is YOU who needs to stop being so judgmental and become much better informed before you go talking about things which you know little or nothing about.

"I have said my peace - what ever comments are made, they are welcome."

If thats true, then go do the research.


"But I will not feed into the irrational harsh -- "but my way is the right way" attitude."

That sister, is exactly the attitude of the Radha Soami cult and its satsangis.


"I just wanted to stand up for a everyday sant mat I believe in"

You said that you were not into Sant mat, Now you say you are. Which is it? Sounds like you are a BSer.

Brian, you had me laughing out loud with your post. Talk about running with an analogy and milking it for all it's worth! :)

On a more serious note, if the practice hasn't worked for you and you are happier with adopting a different approach to your spiritual and mental well-being, then that is all well and good, and I don't see any cause for a satsangi to have a quarrel with it. It has been your research and your findings, and you are fully entitled to draw whatever conclusions you please.

However, if those conclusions were to intimate or suggest that your personal findings may have universal application, then I can understand why others may wish to challenge you on that. Not only is it a long stretch from personal to universal, but there is an hidden (or not so hidden) implication that the personal research of others has less merit and validity than your own.

I don't know whether you have actually made the above suggestion, but it seems to me that judging by the responses here, quite a few posters have read this into your story, either between the lines or quite openly. I believe this is why there seems to be this dichotomy of two extreme types of responses, this black and white segregating of views, this "you're either for us or against us" attitude which divides rather than unites and does little to nurture and encourage love and understanding.

Well said, Tucson Bob!

In one of the Sant Mat books there is a story of a man who visited the Dera while the Guru was away; while he was meditating he supposedly 'went inside' and keeled over.

What interested me was the next statement which went much like this, 'Since none of the residents at the time had been inside, they didn't know that this is what was happening to him and they put him outside the Dera gate.' Eminent scientists indeed!

A friend went to the Dera recently and the question was posed to Gurinder, "Are there any Americans who go inside regularly?"
There was a weighty pause before the response. Then the answer came that there was one (could have said two!). He proceeded to pull down his sevadars a little again to say that it was none of them, but some-one or two who stayed very much in the background. People at the meeting loved the answer I believe!

Oops, sorry Tucson Bob and Brian, I mistakenly thought that the lengthy "eminent scientist" analogy was Brian's. The name at the bottom of the post is difficult to read on my screen.

The rest of my post still applies to Brian despite my initial error.

Misti
Again, what is love for the Guru?
Would you agree that it is selfless service to him as he has requested; an attachment to him sometimes at the expense of other attachments and one's self?
In this service, the initiate works in a kind and compassionate way with everyone he/she meets.
If you agree, then you cannot question Brian's 30 years plus service to/ love for the Guru.

Catherine, I do agree with what you say, and I don't know how you got the impression that I am questioning Brian's service and love to the Guru. I admire and respect it immensely, and I would be grateful to be imbued with even a tiny portion of it.

What I was questioning in a previous post is one aspect of the conclusions he has drawn from his personal experiences on the path, and that is that his personal results may apply to everyone. This is what I am challenging, and certainly not his sincere and genuine dedication and effort on the path. I hope I have made this clearer now.

I think it should be obvious that at least SOME people acheive the 'results' as promised. Actually, I have met quite a few RSSB initiates who have.

Personally, I think the *interpretation* of these experiences, as in the RS theology, is were the errors are made.

People mistaking neuro-biological experiences for grand objective insights or proof about the workings and cosmology of creation, is highly questionable. All consensual or objective eveidence we have, points to these experiences being NOTHING more than subjective neuro-biological experiences, much like having a dream.

It might be profound and uplifting, but so what?

Hi John,

I meant it as a probing question. Because there are many reports of spiritual transport experienced by those in solitude.

I am saying that he is living on one side of the coin, and myself on the other. I was juxtaposing that scenario.

Yes, in terms of sexuality itself--a requisite for spiritual experiences IMO, and exerience. That's a paradox. I have always maintained that without sexuality, i.e. hormones one has NO experiences. I've written about that intersection on RSS and in my book.

Netemara

Can't someone criticize an institution without having been part of it?

Geoffrey and Brian,

"When the guru disappears, the disciple is ready to teach" Net

Thanks for posting those links. As you can see if you follow it that I was the Alpha Dog http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/alphadog.htm who wrote that Testimonial. I stand by that testimonial too. It was MY royal rant.

I have even linked it to my web site. I wrote it as more of chronology than anything else.

I do believe that when the guru disappears the disciple is ready to teach. It is the reverse of when the guru appears the disciple is ready to submit. It is the spiritual law that one have a guru. Not for life but for enlightenment.

If anyone here, including Brian, can say that they have not attained to a level of enlightenment that was higher than the one that they came to Sant Mat with, well, then they are entitled to say they have been bamboozled, hoodwinked--to use Spike Lee's terms.

If you leave with less than you came, then surely you are or were lost to begin with. No group, no guru, no mental grinder can straighten out crooked thinking, we do the work/meditation.

I am a firm believer in self-transformation through the sieve of the introspection. The outer, guru, group, religion, are only tools, instruments we use in our self-transformation. It is ultimately self-imposing.

Just as those who have severe chemical imbalances in the brain--no doctor nor medicine can "Cure" them. It can only be somewhat controlled with the will of that person wanting to change.

As for suicides in Sant Mat: they are clear that one will follow their ultimate destiny regardless. Sant Mat does not change one's destiny, end of story. It means that person would have done suicide in any life path.

Netemara

thanks again

The relentless Tao says:

“I simply and naturally ceased paying any attention to it(Sant Mat), or involvement with it, after talking personally with Charan at the Dera a few times.”

On the contrary, dude. You appear to be obsessed and attack anyone defending Sant Mat with the fervor of a Soprano. Take a walk or something.

But, the question remains: Are we justified in complaining about Sant Mat? I can’t recall a post of Brian’s which received so many comments. Brian makes a good case and I can, more or less, attest to his qualifications to make his stand. At a point in time his "God Whispers, Creation Thunders" gave me a reburst of faith based on his argument that quantum physics was proving what the RS Masters claimed. Good book. I’ve read it twice.

Everyone has their little story to tell about Sant Mat. Some have good experiences; some have bad experiences. Some have good and bad. I’ve had both. I’m disappointed with some of my Sant Mat experience and have sort of shifted into “neutral.” That’s my current feeling and my decision. What I don’t understand is the apparent road rage of certain commenters who seem to have bought into the psychology of victimhood. I don’t see how one can have the sense that they have been raped or assaulted or taken advantage of by Sant Mat. Participation is/was voluntary. You have to be a thinking adult to get involved and to stay involved at any level. There is no control over individuals. No one calls to tell you to go to satsang or to Dera or to read a book or do seva. Each satsangi or seeker has to decide that individually. If you believe something you have to choose to believe it.
There has been quite a bit of discussion here about money. In thirty-three years of fairly active participation no one has ever suggested or requested that I give money. The seva box is there. There is money seva at Dera. Certain people have obviously donated their way to the top of the RS pecking order. But I have never felt compelled to give money. Likewise with seva. I’ve done seva but never felt like I had to. It was always my choice to decide whether to try and meditate, about what to eat, about how to live my life. There was guidance from the Masters through writing, tapes, etc. I decided whether to buy into it or not. It’s my decision to opt out or become agnostic about it. My choice; my responsibility. If, for example, I now decide that perhaps the Master isn’t what I thought he was, or that the organizational development, the centers, the rules and the top disciples are a crock, that’s my decision too. I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions and decisions. I don’t see the point, however, in the anger, the accusations and the hyperbole. If you feel you made a mistake with Sant Mat then do something else. Get over it. Learn from your mistake instead of blabbering like that old comedian Flip Wilson, “the devil made me do it.” If the Master has so little power in your life why affirm that he does by raging about it.
Here’s another question: Is there anything to gain by challenging someone’s faith? Most of the world’s population has faith in something. It’s comforting. I felt a lot happier during the two long periods (one Christian, one RS) where I had strong faith. I miss having it and don’t want to do anything to take that away from the faithful. I honestly don’t see what the harm is in believing in the Sant Mat pitch. People believe in lots of stuff that may or may not be true, religious and otherwise. People believe in essential oils, Bach remedies, the macrobiotic diet, the New York Yankees, UFO’s, neo-con theory, fundamentalist Christianity, wahabism, chemical agriculture to name just a few. Some of these beliefs are dangerous with potential for great harm. Sant Mat, in my opinion, doesn’t even come close to falling into the dangerous category. You can play Sant Mat, or not play Sant Mat. Your choice. Your responsibility.
Are we justified in complaining about Sant Mat? Well, it’s kind of fun after years of not having an honest discussion about this Path. The faithless love company, I suppose, except for Brian’s faithful little troll Tao who has no need of faith and has pretty much had it with satsangus (sic). (Oh, I am so looking forward to the sentence by sentence takedown by the mighty Tao wherein I will be forced to my rhetorical knees by his inflamed certainty).

R Blog,
So what if Tao likes to rail against Sant Mat? This is a discussion forum and he states his views. What makes it interesting here is that there are a variety of approaches and outlooks including yours. Anything is fair game here. If you don't like a fight, stay out of the fray. Go past his posts and read the ones you like. Respond to the polite, tactful, peaceful folk. Many complain about his style and manner, but only a few seem able to offer substantive responses to his criticisms of Sant Mat. 'Boo hoo hoo, that mean old troll Tao called me a name.' But he doesn't whine about the punches dished out to him. He throws one back, takes another and gives another. Sometimes he's downright funny.

Regarding money and RS. They don't need the hard sell. People give because of what Gurinder is supposed to be. If God put a bowl out for money wouldn't you want to put soemthing in it? After all, this is God we're talking about, and who knows what sort of karmic gain or spiritual grace one might gain by tossing a few bucks his way? If I give $500, maybe I'll get to Sach Khand in two lifetimes, but if I put down a few grand maybe I'll get there in one. If you toss in a few million like the Petaluma millionaires, you get to ride around with Gurinder in his jet. And I hear more pressure is put on Indian devotees to give money seva than westerners. This you don't see unless you are conversant in Hindi, Punjabi or Urdu and hang out with the Indian masses.

And if your faith gets challenged here, that's what the blog is for. At the dinner table, yeah, don't tell the host his pope is a joke, but here, that's entirely appropriate. Don't like it, don't come, but I hope you will.

Tucson Bob,

Well said my friend. There's mighty fine wisdom in them thar words.

Keep on rockin in the free world.


Tucson B. says:

"This is a discussion forum and he (Tao) states his views. What makes it interesting here is that there are a variety of approaches and outlooks including yours. Anything is fair game here. If you don't like a fight, stay out of the fray."

I don't mind a bit of a fray.

In the case of the "sometime downright funny" Tao, I don't find bullying people who come to the discussion forum to state their views and their variety of approaches to be particularly humorous or virtuous.

I have a friend, however, who in his emails is a gigantic...well, in coloquial terms we would call him an "asshole." He pisses me off with almost every communication. I get so mad I won't talk to him for weeks. The curious thing is that, in person, he is the gentlest, kindest fellow I have ever met. He is, in short, a paper tiger—not a real one.

I'm going to bet the Tao is just like my friend—furious fingers typing madly but who when face-to-face would never think of belittling someone.

And re: your comments on money seva: supposition, hearsay. Not as factual as I'm certain Tao would want you to be. When I start getting emails from RS like I do from Moveon.org asking me for money then I'll start to think there is some monetary motive.

Tucson B. says:

"This is a discussion forum and he (Tao) states his views. What makes it interesting here is that there are a variety of approaches and outlooks including yours. Anything is fair game here. If you don't like a fight, stay out of the fray."

I don't mind a bit of a fray.

In the case of the "sometime downright funny" Tao, I don't find bullying people who come to the discussion forum to state their views and their variety of approaches to be particularly humorous or virtuous.

I have a friend, however, who in his emails is a gigantic...well, in coloquial terms we would call him an "asshole." He pisses me off with almost every communication. I get so mad I won't talk to him for weeks. The curious thing is that, in person, he is the gentlest, kindest fellow I have ever met. He is, in short, a paper tiger—not a real one.

I'm going to bet the Tao is just like my friend—furious fingers typing madly but who when face-to-face would never think of belittling someone.

And re: your comments on money seva: supposition, hearsay. Not as factual as I'm certain Tao would want you to be. When I start getting emails from RS like I do from Moveon.org asking me for money then I'll start to think there is some monetary motive.

Hey R Blog,

I hear what you're sayin' but this is a public forum and if you throw out something debatable, you may get hit hard, just like in real life. I guess Brian could ban the tough guys, but would that be any fun? Maybe he should warn people on the home page, "Weenies Beware, thou might get smitten."

I don't find outright bullying very amusing either, but there is no rule here about being virtuous. I do find the directness of Tao's comments funny in some contexts.

I admit that my perception of RS money matters is based a little on heresay, along with a little intuition, common sense, cynicism, and personal experience.

R Blog,

tao wrote: "I simply and naturally ceased paying any attention to it(Sant Mat), or involvement with it..."

You wrote: "You appear to be obsessed and attack anyone defending Sant Mat..." "Take a walk or something."

On the contrary, I am merely responding to the absurd psuedo-spirituality coming from those who themselves are so very "obsessed" with Sant Mat. It is these believers who are obsessed, not myself. I simply make a counterpoint to those who so superficially defend Sant mat and the current fake RS guru, without having any substance whatsoever to their claims and to the object of their blind devotions.

As I have made crystal clear many times over, I personally don't give a hoot about the RS cult and guru, or the dogmatic Sant mat theology and cosmology. It's just a sad joke to me... and unfortunately a myth that way too many gullible people are trapped in. So I give them a little poke about it in hopes that they will wake-up and be more objective and become more personally empowered in themselves, and free themselves from myths and belief systems like Sant mat and guru-cults like RS.

These folks can meditate naturally all they like, as they so choose... but they just don't need all the unnecessary baggage and rubbish dogma and ridiculous "master" BS that the RS cult and other "obsessed" satsangis tack on to it.


You asked: "Are we justified in complaining about Sant Mat?"

You are damn right we are. And why not? It has a hell of a lot about it that can be criticsed. A who is better qualified to criticise it than guys like myself and Brian and Tucson Bob and Manjit any other former satsangis who have "been there and done that". ... And just who the f**k are you to argue otherwise? Just why should this forum be somehow restricted from critiques of Sant mat and RS? If you can't see that then you ought take your personal hang-ups elsewhere.


"Brian makes a good case"

Yes, and my over-all position regarding RSSB is basically no different than his is. So whats your problem? Apparently you don't like my nitty-gritty directness. You would rather have everyone pussy-foot around.


"I’m disappointed with some of my Sant Mat experience and have sort of shifted into “neutral.”"

So what. Thats your prerogative.


"What I don’t understand is the apparent road rage of certain commenters who seem to have bought into the psychology of victimhood."

Fyi, I myself an not enraged at all. I actually take a very detached perspective. I actually really don't give a damn about Santmat/RS. I haven't for a long time, if ever. I simply have no value or use for it. But maybe you think that you yourself do.

However, I post my opinions and views about Santmat and RS just as you or others in this group do. You choose the ride the fence. I don't need to ride the fence. I know with deep certainty that 99 percent of RS is pseudo-spiritual baloney. You don't. So what? Do I care? No. Thats your problem not mine.

But you have another problem and that is that you want to suppress and reject others like myself from making valid observations and criticisms about a quasi-religious guru-cult and its questionable doctrines.

So your reaction to my views and opionions, and even the facts, seems rather immature. You must be a bit of a spiritual neophyte.


"I don’t see how one can have the sense that they have been raped or assaulted or taken advantage of by Sant Mat."

The fact of the matter is that Sant mat, and more specifically the individual Sant mat branch cults like RSSB, Ruhani Satsang, Know Thyself As Soul Inc. etc etc have all manipulated, taken advantage of, and exploited the ignorance and gullibility of spiritual seekers. That is how people can have the "sense" that they have been deceived.

Yes, they entered into the cult voluntarily... but then they were unknowingly sold a particular bill of goods that is in many aspects, quite fraudulent.


"Participation is/was voluntary."

Yes, and the opposite is also true: The ending of one's participation in it is also voluntary. But you sure wouldn't think so if you listened to all the crap and guilt trips that are foisted upon Exers by the die-hard RS cult believers. And don't try to tell me that they don't, because I have heard and seen them do so a thousand times.


"You have to be a thinking adult to get involved..." "There is no control over individuals."

Bullshit. There is loads of psychological influence and manipulation via the theology and dogma, and the obvious influence of the contrived guru authority and relationship.


"No one calls to tell you to go to satsang..." "Each satsangi or seeker has to decide that individually."

Of course, but thats only in the beginning when the seeker is first entering into the web of influence that is within the books and satsang discourses, and the sphere of influence from other satsangi beleivers. It s just like any cult. The more one reads and goes to satsangs and becomes involved, the harder is is for them to see the forest for the trees.


"If you believe something you have to choose to believe it."

Thats only from your rather immature spiritual perspective. The ability to choose depends greatly on the particular information that is presented to the seeker. Most satsangis do not in fcat have a comprehensive and broad over-view and understanding of the whole spectrum of spiritual philosophy and various traditions.

"no one has ever suggested or requested that I give money."

So what. The subtle demand for donation money is still there. And people who give very large amounts of money are given extra-special privledges and close proximity and access to the so-called "master" (phony guru).


"Certain people have obviously donated their way to the top of the RS pecking order."

Thats what I just said. Thanks for confirming it. It is disgustingly corrupt that a supposed spiritual guru, a so-called "Sant" no less, to dish out such privledge according to one's donations and level of financial wealth. This speaks volumes about the shallowness and lack of genuiness of Gurinder and RS gurus.


"I have never felt compelled to give money. Likewise with seva."

Thats to your credit.


"I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions and decisions."

Thats also to your credit. So bully for you. And so what? You speak as if others are not being responsible for themselves. The people that I see that are actually being irresponsible are the weak-minded and insecure satsangi believers who cannot stand on their own ground and who feel they need a spiritual father figure, a "master"/savior.


"I don’t see the point, however, in the anger, the accusations and the hyperbole."

I don't see any anger or accusations. I see people like Brian, myself and others being quite candid. Thats all. I think your perception of anger etc is undounded.


"If you feel you made a mistake with Sant Mat then do something else."

I cannot speak for others, but I myself never felt that I had made any such "mistake". I checked it out thoroughly, and then came to my coclusions.


"Get over it. Learn from your mistake instead of blabbering"

Sorry but I don't have anything to "get over". And again, I never felt I had made any such "mistake". Thats your projection. So get your facts and assumptions straight.


"If the Master has so little power in your life why affirm that he does by raging about it."

He does not have "little power"... he has absolutely NO power. He is just another little nobody among the rest of the 5 billion or so humans. but he obviously has power and influence over you.

Neither am I "raging about it". I am merely presenting my views just like you are. Your reaction to my comments betrays your hang-up and resistance to facing the truth about Sant mat and the RS and its so-called "master".


"Is there anything to gain by challenging someone’s faith?"

Yes... they may take a better and deeper look at it themselves. Thats a good thing. Faith needs to be tested. But "faith" is not the issue here... only the facts are the issue.


"Most of the world’s population has faith in something."

So what.


"It’s comforting."

I could not care less about your need for comfort. Grow up and be an adult.


"I felt a lot happier during the two long periods (one Christian, one RS) where I had strong faith."

That says that you would rather live in an illusion, a myth, a fantasy.... than live and abide in the reality of your own unique life.


"I miss having it and don’t want to do anything to take that away from the faithful."

That tells me how immature and spiritually adolescent you are.


"I honestly don’t see what the harm is in believing in the Sant Mat pitch."

Frankly, there is loads of harm in believing in a lie, believing in a myth and wasting your entire life on it.


"People believe in lots of stuff..."

So what.


"Some of these beliefs are dangerous with potential for great harm. Sant Mat, in my opinion, doesn’t even come close to falling into the dangerous category."

Then you just don't have a clue about cults.


"Are we justified in complaining about Sant Mat?"

That's for damn sure.


"The faithless love company, I suppose"

What a fool you are. The "faithless" could not care less about "company". Thats a fact. Its the faithful who need groups and cults and religions.


"...except for Brian’s faithful little troll Tao"

Fyi, Brian can kiss my ass. And YOU... you are a pathetically shallow and lame guru-cult goonie. And everyhing that you have said so far, confirmns that. I actually realy feel sorry for weak-minded guru-groveling fools like you. Get a real life.


"Oh, I am so looking forward to the sentence by sentence takedown by the mighty Tao wherein I will be forced to my rhetorical knees by his inflamed certainty."

Well ther you have it. Glad to be of service. Better luck next-time. And do try to grow-up a little.


R Blog,

PS: Its only weak-minded people like you who whine about "bullying". And fyi, if you can't handle me on the net, then you certainly would not want to tangle with me in person.


Guys, guys (and gals)...can't we all simultaneously disagree and get along?

Brian,


No. Just read this post and replies as a printed book.Then take it and give it to someone, outside the 'context'. He will think, obviously that we are a bunch of problematics, full of issues and mental disorders, talking nonsence.

First of all it started with confrontation; then it became a political arena, a market place, an agora...
where people meet,chat, some agree some dissagree. At the end of the day we retreat to our caves.


only the art of it survives, as a written text, as it is.

hi brian,
i am educated in india.i read the bible when i was eight onwards.some westerners came and distributed the new testament when we were in class three.i was in boarding and it became my consolation for seperation from my family.i read the gita when i was twenty nine ,in the army and an alcholic.at thirty two i recovered from alchohol with the help of a a and medicine.as part of a a recovery i again am reading the bible and the guru granth sahib.i am also reading and listening to r s s b literature.there is no difference between what jesus krishna sikh gurus and charan singh says.what is the problem?you did not get the light and sound show?you could just continue being a good human being.that would be enough.i also recommend you attend the a a meetings to understand the meaning of total surrender.it works.also total surrender in a a is a western concept and it is working miracles with recovering alcholics and addicts.we in the east have readily accepted it as it gels very well with us.a a stands for alcholics anonymous.read the literature to get a glimpse of god.god comes faster to those in pain it seems.all the best,
udeshpal

brian,
spirituality is certainly better than drinking,driving drunk,promiscous behaviour,cheating for money,lying,egocentric behaviour.look at the bright side of it.just think of god as wise old grand dad,who is terribly happy with you.which i am sure he is.incidently a lot of scientists are talking about an intelligence underlying all that exists.maybe that would be some peoples path and not meditation.just look around.you will hit into god again and again.you cant escape his love.he chose you to meditate.which is far better than what many people do in life.there is the story of the prostitute and the priest.the temple was neighbouring the brothel.the prostitute spent her entire life in bliss,cause whenever she heard the temple bells tears came to her eyes and she felt the presence of lord in the form of krishna next to her.she was able to pass her life in constant rememberence of the lord,she prayed whenever the bells rang and was greatful to god for the brothel being next to the temple.the priest on the other hand saw people drinking ,making love to the prostitutes and making merry ,and was always thinking "curse my luck,look at people living up life and i have to keep ringing bells and praying the whole day,there is no way i can have sex or liquor like them.curser my luck"he spent his life cursing god for his luck.brain you are god .who will you take first, the prostitute or the priest?my e mail is [email protected] you are specially blessed by god to have mediteted like this.god grant me the same courage and strength as you.
love
udeshpal

udeshpal, the question is whether morality comes from God, or from human beings--who then say "God makes me moral."

Lots of people live an upstanding moral life without relying on God, guru, or any other external authority. Millions and millions of Taoists, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, and humanists, for example.

Are these people immoral because their morality springs from an inner, rather than outer, source? I don't think so. In fact, I'd call them more moral than religious people, because their morality is more natural and unforced.

I'm glad that you find comfort and support in your faith. That's great. I just hope you'll consider that it's possible to surrender not to a particular creed or dogma, but to reality. To me, that's the true surrender--to truth.

Some people find that truth in words, in books, in holy places, in holy revelation. Other people find that truth within--in their own heart, mind, and intuitive understanding of what is right and wrong.

There are so many religions, so many different ways of believing in God. They can't all be right. So how do we figure out which way to go in life? If we rely on a holy book or a holy authority figure, we're going around in circles.

"Believe in me because I say, 'Believe in me'."

That doesn't make sense. To me, the only way out of the circle is to seek truth directly--in the depths of our own consciousness.

You may not agree. That's fine. It's just the conclusion I've come to after many years of looking for the truth.

Dear Brian et al.,

How does one differentiate "having beliefs" about "reality" (whatever the hell that is) from "knowing" "reality"?

Robert Paul Howard

Robert, I suppose there's a complicated philosophical answer to your question (read Kant), but I look at it pretty simply.

Like my favorite saying goes, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

There's your difference. A unicorn (or, I'd say, God) exists only so long as I'm thinking, imagining, dreaming, emoting. Real things are there, regardless of what I do. I rub my eyes, say "No! You aren't real!" and they're still there.

Now, I realize that lots of people say that everything passes through consciousness, so everything is subjective. That may be in a sense.

But when I drive my car, virtually everyone stops at red lights and goes on green, just like me. I call that "knowing reality." Someone high on drugs or alcohol who doesn't perceive clearly and believes there isn't a traffic light there at all, I call that "having a belief."

A dangerous belief.

RPH,
Reality can't be known as an object by a someone, therefore anything expressed as known about reality would be a belief including what I just said.

RPH
Belief and knowledge are the opposites that intrude when you want control over the world: I believe I am standing next to you; you know I am not. I know I am standing next to you; you believe I am kooky.

And really, if you don't care or want control, you wouldn't notice if I were standing next to you, or if it were in fact possible.

If God were a kindly old papa, what's the big deal? If God were a three-headed dog on the porch, would that be so bad?

Brian wrote:

>>Like my favorite saying goes, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Like the Sound Current, for instance?

mysti, like anything that is real. I'm not sure about the Sound Current, a.k.a. shabd, spirit, nam, etc.

There's energy in the universe. That's for sure. Whether or not there's a metaphysical energy to the cosmos, that's another question.

Since it wouldn't be physical, there's no way to objectively test the reality of it, like there is with other material entities.

So it falls into the "belief" category in that regard. Some people call it "reality," but since they can't test their reality against other people's, this really doesn't count as real reality the way we usually use that word.

Brian,

>>Since it wouldn't be physical, there's no way to objectively test the reality of it, like there is with other material entities.

>>So it falls into the "belief" category in that regard.

If you regard the physical sciences as the only way to determine reality, then everything else falls into the belief category.

However, if we define something as being real if it still exists when we stop believing in it, then I think the Sound Current - or call it what you will - more than fits the bill. Whether it is metaphysical is not the question here, only that it persists in the absence of belief.

I have read and heard of numerous people from all kinds of belief systems, including atheists, describe hearing a sound "inside" or in their head which appears indistinguishable from the descriptions of the "holy sound" in the mystical texts. We cannot conclude with certainty that it is one and the same, but to the extent that we can conclude that others partake of experiences in consciousness the same as our own (thoughts, emotions, sensations), we may assume that they are talking about the same thing.

That is the point I was trying to raise, that a sound with which satsangis are familiar does persist beyond the belief in it. What is it exactly, what is its source and its nature, those are the metaphysical questions, but the fact that a sound like the Sound Current can be heard by those who do not "believe" in it cannot be disputed.


brian,
you are right.i agree with all you said.in fact i mostly draw my own conclusions.based on what i feel.today morning i was listening to maskeen ji on t v.he explained how what one cannot perceive does not exist.for him at least.like some animals are aware of a family system.some are oblivious to it.so for them it does not exist.now he said that just because one cannot perceive god does not mean that he does not exist.so he explained that one muslim saint explained god as that which was beyond his comprehension to understand or explain.
another modern day hindu saint explained god thus"the father tells the child,i will take care of you".the child does not try to figure out how he is going to do it.he hugs the father and says"i believe you"the father is immensly happy and says"i love you"the child says "i love you too"they are both very happy.
sant mat is not the only way to achieve god.we had the bhakti movement where people just danced,sang and rejoiced in love and brotherhood.
i want to ask you do you feel love ?for people,nature,things etc.or are you the quetioning mind who would break down love to just hormones and good sex while it lasts?can you just sail along with it when you are feeling good or do you want to break down the toy?
you know what made america great?when the whole world was chanting socialism america said no ,we cant hold a good man down.when the world said govt should control everything america said we trust in people.when space travel was a fantasy america said we will put a man on the moon.americans were bold enough to experiment with interest rates to uplift economy.today it is a worldwide trend.if there is mental impotence anywhere you can trust americans to break it.thank god for america.i think of america as having a child like innocence to believe.to take that jump.to be excited about the future.we in the east lack it so badly.to belive in something which one cannot percieve yet is a human quality.it has borne success in the matriel world.it applies equally well to spirituality.winners believe.
brian you are serving a purpose ,to tittilate the seeker to think and learn more.it is good.god bless you,
love
udeshpal

brain
many in india besides r s s b can make you hear the sound like current.i have met people who have heard it.
love udeshpal

Regarding the last couple of comments: There's a physical phenomenon called "tinnitus." My wife is bothered by it. It's basically a ringing in the ears. Or a humming.

As I said in my first book, tinnitus sufferings describe the sounds they hear in almost exactly the same fashion as the "Sound Current" is described (in initial stages, at least).

So what is the nature of these sounds: Physical or metaphysical? If my wife takes much too aspirin, she gets ringing in her ears. Is that God speaking to her?

Just because people see lights or hear sounds in their consciousness that seem to come from "within," this doesn't mean the phenomenon is something spiritual.

Udeshpal, of course I feel love. My day is filled with experiences that can't be quantified, described, or objectively proven. I walk in nature, practice Tai Chi, dance Tango, meditate, do all kinds of other intuitive spontaneous non-conceptual stuff.

However, I don't expect that other people should recognize the reality of what I subjectively experience. I don't set up a Church of My Love for Tai Chi. I don't expect that my personal experiences be worshiped as cosmic truth.

That's my objection to setting up subjectivity as co-equal with objectivity. Some things in the world can be shown as existing independent of our belief in them, or perception of them. Other "things" can't.

I'm not saying that subjectivity is unreal. Or that some things could be objectively real but incapable of being captured by a symbol (an argument in my first book).

However, you can't demand that other people believe what you believe just because you say, "I believe it, so it's real." It may be real for you, but not for me.

brian,
you are intelligent.i have not read your books.you are right .there is no reason for one to believe a reality someone else has experienced,just because he says i believe so you should believe.i do know that a lot of growth is taking place in india now.mostly because media is forcing people to think,and also media is throwing up belief systems against each other.an off shoot of dera beas is called dera sacha sauda.their guru recently dressed up as guru gobind singh.something which sikhs are sensitive to.also you are aware the deras have large following of sikhs too.
anyway the s g p c and akal takht instigated violence, and the situation in punjab has become bad once again.there is a face off with akal takht demanding gurmeet ram rahim singh ,the guru ,to publicly apologise.
being a claen shaven sikh i am appaled at the lack of tolerance being shown by sikhs.symbolism has become more important than the message.there is public debate.most educated people agree that peace,rights,and humane behavior is more important than religious sensitivities.but the lesser educated who respond more from the ego level feel justified in violence.
one feels that the whole problem with all belief systems is the desire in people to make others believe what they believe .it gives some satisfaction or feeling of security,i dont know.
one religious leader recently went to the united states.he was performing a sermon when the police came and told him he could not use the mike as he was disturbing the peace.he was thrilled.he spoke in india saying that americans though not practising religion with pomp and show,were great karam yogis.by performing their correct duty those cops had worshipped god in the correct manner.they were contributing to harmony in the world.
there is not one way which pleases god.man knos what is right and what is wrong .right pleases both man and god.because there is god in man too.if you visit india do call me.09814211465.it will be interesting talking to you.
regards
udeshpal

Dear Brian, Tucson Bob, and Edward,

Thank you, gentlemen, for your responses to my query. One response seemed to me to be quite enigmatic but, nevertheless, seemingly sensible. One was quite baffling. And the third was essentially useless. Please permit me to respond somewhat like tao does:

Brian:

Thank you for directing me to Kant. Having walked that path in the past, however, I shall not at the present go there again - no matter what you may "suppose." You citation from Philip K. Dick, however, does lead me to recognize - "believe" it or not - that only MY awareness "doesn't go away." The three of you - and all others, all else - are just phenomena which I "consciously experience." You/it - regardless by my "belief" - "go away." MY awareness does not.

I "know" nothing of your noumenal "existence." The fact that I do "believe" that you exist aside from my own awareness in no way provides for my "knowing" that you actually do so. The assertions, opinions, life-stories, pictures, self-references which you make, Brian, are all just sensed experiences for me. Although I do not "believe" it to be so, you may very well just be part of a convoluted projection of/from my own mind. Were I to develop some sort of amnesia about you, you might "go away." Even with such an amnesia, however, MY awareness - even if differently structured - would not have "go[ne] away."

The "real"ness of "things [that] are there" is very much the point of my question. Contrary to your statement, no matter how much "thinking, imagining, dreaming, emoting" you engage in, you do not make a unicorn "exist." You only "think" it, "imagine" it, etc. It will not thereby come into my sensory perception other than as a "thought." And - since I don't "know" that you even "really exist" (other than in MY experienced thought) - there is thus no unicorn in "external" "reality." Such an entity - like "God" (as seemingly conceived by most folks [as if they truly exist (!)]) - is only ideational.

What you have "call[ed]...'knowing reality'" is just participation in a generally projected "belief" structure. You seem to dwell in a "virtual" reality wherein the red light/green light "difference" is accepted by "everyone...just like [you]." You "call" someone who doesn't "perceive clearly" a traffic light one who is "'having a belief.'" But that appears to me to be just a belief.

While I also "believe" that some beliefs can be "dangerous belief[s]," I do not "know" that "your" beliefs are excluded from that category. (And all of this is likewise based on my "belief" that you might actually exist - which is only an inference which I make. Remember: all that I "know" is limited solely to MY own experience[s], thought[s], and insight[s]. For me, you "exist" only as a phenomenon. Your being - to/for MY awareness - is merely like all the other portions of "maya" which dances before my awareness.) I "believe" that it may just be the "fear" of solipsism which inclines me (who realy does have "awareness" - even if only of "maya") to "believe" that you might possibly exist independently of MY own being. I don't "know" that you exist - I only infer it.........and that is a belief.

Thanks for your response, but it really was of little value to me.

Tucson Bob:

I have read and considered what you (and tao [quite separately]) have consistently indicated over many months, and your words have impressed me the most favorably.

Awareness "experiences" "reality" in a way that only permits "knowing" the immediate experience -whether "physical," "ideational," "inferred," or "concluded." And, at best, these are all just manifested as "beliefs" which may (or may not) remain in one's (subjective) "awareness." The awareness - which I experience as MY awareness - is the one "thing" (which it is not) which does not "go away." All other "things" (="objects") are ever passing away. Only that which is "no-thing" remains. (I "call" it the "One" - but that is just reflective of a [probably passing] "belief" and/or my "virtual reality.") Perhaps - for I do not "know" - I am a drop returning to a great(er) ocean. But within the limits of what I "experience," "know," and "believe," MY awareness is the total of the "ocean." If/when I/MY awareness "experience(s)" some"thing" greater - only then can I "know" a greater "reality." (And it will not have "thinghood.")


Even if you are only a phenomenal experience, I offer you my thanks for your ostensibly enigmatic but meaningful words.


Edward:

Thanks for responding, but - as you (seemingly) so correctly implied - I do "believe" that you are "kooky." (And if you do not separately "exist" - as I functionally "believe" to be the case - I would be wondering just why my mind has brought you about as some sort of projection for my awareness to experience.)

If you are ever again "standing next to" me, please bring yourself into my awareness in a way that I can experience. So far, my "experience" of you is like that of a verbal performance artist. As a set of phenomena, you are far more ephemeral than are most other folks who (at least seem to) leave responses at Brian's site for others to see. (Presuming that any of you actually exist in "independent" and "separate" ways - aside from "MY" awareness.)

Since you have stated that you both believe and know that you are standing next to me, and since I have not noticed you standing next to me, it would appear that I "don't care or want control" "over the world." On the other hand, I don't "know" if when (seemingly) you used the word "you" you meant the entity known as Robert Paul Howard, or if you just meant "one," i.e., anyone.

"If God were" an existent being having effects in my realm of awareness - whether "papa" or "three-headed dog" - I very well might query it/him as to what meaning your responses are supposedly intended to convey. I don't understand what you have indicated at all. You have me baffled.

But, nevertheless, thanks for expending the effort to reply. (If you really exist.)

Robert Paul Howard

RPH,
Edward could be an insane, mad poet, but I think what Edward usually does is deliberately write something that does not "compute". As a result, our patterns of logical sequential thought come to an impasse sort of like when working on an unsolvable zen koan. The advantage of this is that sometmes, in those moments of utter frustration, the mind gives up, becomes still, and an intuitive perception occurs. In that moment we may see how things really are.

Another way of looking at Edward's posts is that he is making fun of our intellectual gymnastics by writing something incomprehensible just for the fun of it, to see if we take it seriously and where we go with it. The joke's on us.

John Lennon's lyrics were sometimes like Edward's comments. I was listening to the song "I Am The Walrus" which, as far as I'm concerned now, was total gibberish, but at the time I was trying to make sense out of it. This was the catalyst for a very profound insight that changed the way I perceived everything.

The ultimate reality of what we really are is obviously not something we're going to box up in a few sentences, paragraphs or books to the intellectual satisfaction and enlightenment of everyone.

Yet a few words of nonsense could do the trick...

I am the Walrus, goo goo ga joob!!

NNNyah hah.

No one touches dry ice, not no one.

I need special gloves, or insulated tongs, or preferably, a minion.

Just like ideas: no one communicates with them directly. Only metaphors, misdirection, infinitismally short stories. Even the idea that gives us quotation marks comes from a Latin word expressing number and set. Mighty long tongs for each bit of ice in RHP's last post.

And RHP, you nearly got this little part of control of the world: It doesn't matter to the meaning that gets conveyed (it's alive!) if I intend it or not, I am speaking to the entity known as Robert Paul Howard, AND anyone. As an experiment, take your own awareness of the world and extrapolate to all other possible consciousnesses. All of them. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Now drop what you're doing, find the song "Tupelo Honey" by Van Morrison and listen to it like it was your first birthday card. There will be a part of you, big or small, loud or quiet, that says, "Yes, this is true." Not a formal truth, not a provable theorem - just blood warmingly true.

Like Tucson Bob.

Dear gentlemen,

Thank you once more for your responses.

I regret to say that my intuitive perception is: that there is shit in the honeypot. Dukka. This is bloodwarmingly true. Perhaps the tea will taste better in Manhattan ........ although the tea here is likely to be of the same blend.

Thanks again.

Robert Paul Howard

oouy taoie, that's really powerful. is that by the great janitor dave lane ?

what do think of some dip shit philosopy major calls himself doctor ... hahahah .. dr. david lane got the whillies when he found out eck was a rip off of rs. something every single sangie knew who ever look at it for more than 5 minutes. janitor lane makes a dr. paper out it.. lol ! Some guy comes runnin in the room after the place is burnt down sayin there's a fire..! haah that's janitor lane.

that secret history is such hollow pos... jurkoffoutson is pushin his own gurus all the way thru it.. totally full holes. an obvious piece of propaganda crap. In my world only that which is false prospers. That's why all the line of rs are dead now except for beas. because it's false, it lives..

Louie


http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/

Beas is BS.


Thats how you finish all post-discussions that come to and end.

A simple lakonic statement, as if it is the absolute outcome of the whole discussion Posted by: Tao ...Give me a break.

Nevertheless, one thing is for sure, neither real truth nor real knowledge can come from an internet 'agora'. This internet domain is itself an obstacle. It tries, probably sincerely, to 'help' but from the moment it attempts to do so (acts), it turns into a wall, a barier.
Writting the word truth,

All day and night, music,
a quiet, bright
reedsing.If it
fades, we fade - rumi

Our daily simran?
Computer, tv, magazines computer, tv magazines,computer tv magazine daily mantra computer,tv, magazines, computer tv magazines, computertvmagazines,

Sayonara

And BS comments are BS too.

I can't say for others, but fyi, I don't watch TV, and I don't read magazines, and I only use a computer to do occasional research, business, and e-mail correspondence. And I don't do mantras and I don't do simran. I don't waste precious time with that kind of useless nonsense.


Dear Brian et al.,

Much of what is asserted/contended herein - http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=28544 - seems quite similar to many of the statements some of you have made. If I may, I'd like to request that some of the more experienced meditators among you might offer some comment on what its author states. Thank you.

Robert Paul Howard

I have a tough time with this one. First I am introduced to the mathematical point at which, "the differentiated self (ego) expands to become undifferentiated and operates outside of the confines of linear time/space. This is the level of One."

The ideation that supports this method is completely reflexive: "Since everything interconnects through thought, thought is the only reality that can bridge space and time." Il se mange.

Somehow, the awake state is defined as the default state of being: "...because it is necessary to alter one's state of consciousness from the fully awake state (Beta), to either Alpha, Theta or Delta (sleep), which are all progressive states of expanded awareness and thus are subject to less vibratory interference from the biological brain." Later, all states are stipulated to create each other along increasing frequency; still later, to co-exist in real time.

Later in the instruction, I am given a confused statement of the original proposition, "how remote viewing and remote influening can have the Matrix Reloaded The ego can be defined as the ability a life-form has to be able to differentiate between thoughts that it will perceive as being one's own (self-reflective) and thoughts that seem to originate outside of one's realm."

By the time the wisdom of "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" is imparted to tie things together, I no longer believe in the ability to communicate from one brain to another via language. I can't analyze what's been presented. It is screaming for an editor.

Dear Edward,

Thank you for bothering to examine the article. I, too, noted several typos, but I believe the worst was the one you cited in your fourth paragraph. The article certainly could/should be edited and tightened up a bit. (And shortened too.)

Nevertheless, its substance seemed quite parallel - at least to me - to many assertions/claims/advice I frequently see offered by some to others on this Church of the Churchless site. I yet hope a few others might choose to struggle through it and offer their insights.

Thanks for already being one who has seemingly done so.

Robert Paul Howard

After reading what Fuzzylogic wrote (I've been around RS my entire life and have been an initiate for a few years now and I've never once been encouraged to give money or anything else to the Satsang.), I really wanted to comment about money sewa or donations in RSSB.

All of you who are connected to RSSB through positively or negatively know that GS has started a computer-department and a newly computerized library in Dera. Do you ever wonder from where dera buy thousands of dollars worth of software for this department.

There is a huge scam for this. First the high profile people in computer department in Dera scans through a list of initiated Software professionals who are working in software companies from where the software is needed. These chosen satsangis are told to register RSSB as non profit organizations in their respective companies. Deluded satsangis work really hard to prove that their organization is not religious but a non profit organization working for needy.

First the software’s are bought in a very cheap price with a huge employee discount. After that the software satsangis are told that Babaji is taking direct interest in this Sewa. Then the satsangi gets overwhelmed and tries to buy more and more software from their company and even their non satsangi friends companies.

Next the software satsangis are asked for any matching donation program of their company (for example in some companies, if you donate $3000 worth of software in a year, then the company will match another $3000 worth of software in donation). Then the satsangi is told to donate the software instead of buying it for RSSB so that RSSB gets matching donation too. By this time, satsangi is reminded hundreds of time that you have to serve the guru by ‘tan, man and dhan’. (body, mind and money).

If the satsangi is not so rich (or have some not-so-deluded annoying family), he or she is told to sell the software to RSSB at a price of (employee discount minus tax deduction from govt at the year end) and show it as donation.

This is done in such a neat way that the satsangi who is donating all the softwares takes all the blame on his head and thinks that my Master wouldn’t have allowed this but I am doing all this due to my love for him.

By the way this is also called COMPUTER SEWA.

Dear Brian,
Sorry to hear that you are disappointed with
the R.S. path and that you feel there were absolutely no results for all the invested hours. You clearly made an effort...so it is hard to believe you feel nothing changed or improved for you. What an incredible shame.

I have a different story. I met my satsangi husband 18 years ago. Any day I saw him, I could tell if he had meditated or not...just by his vibe. I used to tell him to go meditate, if he hadn't...mainly because even I enjoyed that amazing vibration that he seemed to emit when he meditated. (It was missing when he did not meditate). That was when I first met him. I had no idea what he was doing or what path he was leading. I had no idea what meditation was or wasn't. All I knew was that a certain calming vibe was missing when I would see him and I had figured out that it was related to the meditation he was doing.

A few years later, I got more interested and later was initiated by Babaji.

I have also worked very diligently at meditation; however, I am very pleased with my progress and focus within.
I have been plodding along...just like you..
but every year something big changes.
Then my perspective changes...and I feel like there is amazing and substantial shifts in perception and clarity and stillness.
And with every shift, I realize how much more shifting needs to occur...and I am grateful that it is not happening any faster than it is. In fact, I'm now starting to appreciate WHY it is all going so slow (compared to what I desired orginally) and am thankful for His compassionate slow pace.

There is still much I do not know and understand--like why some folks seem to have results after struggling and plodding along and other loyal devotees struggle endlessly and feel nothing.

Just wanted to let you know that there are some satsangis out there that are really feeling good about the years of effort and graceful slow plodding.

Happy spiritual travels wherever you go from here...Perhaps Bhuddism would better suit you at this point? (No sense in wallowing over the past, eh?) Perhaps for you Sant Mat was just a stepping stone? Guess you won't know until that last breath.

Until then,

Wishing you Joy!

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