Sant Mat doesn’t make much sense to me anymore

I used to enjoy reading the "Western USA Regional Newsletter," published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), because I wanted to have my spiritual beliefs confirmed. I still enjoy reading Vince Savarese's monthly message in the newsletter.

For the same reason.

Whereas before I focused on how much sense the RSSB teachings (also known as Sant Mat) made, leaving blurry all of the paradoxes, contradictions, and unanswered questions, now I zero in on the absurdities.

They've always been there, of course. I just did a good job of ignoring them for some thirty years. In this regard I was like a previously fundamentalist Muslim, Anwar Shaikh, whose story is related in Bruce Grierson's "U-Turn."

He was reading the Koran one day when a revelation hit.

I came to the conclusion, all of a sudden, that it was Muhammad himself who was telling the people how to bow before him in the name of Allah, as though it were a command from Allah. By now, I felt that this veil of ignorance had been lifted from my mind.

I was no longer willing to study the Koran through faith. I started reading it critically and rationally. And as I went through it, I realized the Koran did not appeal to me anymore the way it used to do, the way it had for the last twenty-five years…The moment I started reading the Koran critically, it looked entirely [like] another book to me.

Now, I can hear the true believers saying to themselves, "Ah, how unfortunate. Both this Muslim guy and this Church of the Churchless blogger have fallen prey to the doubting intellect, failing to trust their soul's intuition."

Speaking for the blogger, I beg to differ. I'm still all for the Aha! awareness that accompanies intuitive insight. In fact, that's what produces the skepticism that now washes over me when I read Sant Mat literature.

Before, I selectively chose which passages to embrace. That was a decidedly intellectual exercise. I'd sort the mystical wheat from the nonsensical chaff, figuring that if parts of the RSSB world view were appealing that was reason enough to remain an uncritical devotee.

I can't do that anymore. I read Sant Mat literature more holistically now. I'm looking for a Big Picture. If there are significant blank spots in the spiritual scenery, I can't ignore them.

Mystery always will be with us. I'm fine with not-knowing. But when someone claims to have knowledge of what lies beyond the physical, and asserts truths that can be put into English words, then that language can be judged with both intuition and intellection.

I open up the May 2007 newsletter and begin reading. Savarese says that "perfection seems unattainable, beyond the capacity of most of us."

Yet there are perfect beings, Perfect Masters.

I wish this was true. I really do. But there's no evidence of them. Their perfection is supposed to exist on another plane of reality, unknown to us mere mortals. Here on earth, that perfection isn't obvious.

Occasionally I hear from disciples of the Perfect Masters who have had intimate contact with them. The stories that are related to me confidentially throw cold water on the "there are perfect beings" hypothesis. My own experience, likewise.

I read on. I'm told that there is a mystic sound (shabd) that is the creator and creative power that sustains the entire creation. And so perfection exists within it."

Well, the two statements don't necessarily mesh. Since the creation seems imperfect (for example, George Bush is President and Paris Hilton is famous), why wouldn't the creator of all this be imperfect?

Leaving that aside, Savarese also says that "this sound or shabd which we hear or will hear is within ourselves." This makes a lot more sense. If there is a power that sustains everything in existence, and I'm an existent thing, that power must be part of me (or is me).

However, I turn the page and find Julian Johnson quoted. Johnson says that you can't get in touch with the omnipresent divine power of shabd without being initiated by a perfect human being, the satguru. He speaks of the guru, of shabd, and of spiritual freedom (jivan mukti).

There is not only a definite rule that one must have them all or none, but there is a very definite order in which they must come, and this fixed order cannot be changed. Their sequence is fixed by an immutable law of nature; it admits of no variation. It lies not in the power of any man to modify this law and this sequence.

The Satguru must come first. The Shabd-dhun comes second, and then comes jivan mukti. This is the order established by nature or God. No man can alter it.

But wait. How do we know that what Johnson says is true? Is it evident in the laws of nature? No, because if it was, scientists would have discovered this fact by now. Has it been revealed directly by God? No, because if it had been, there would be both evidence of God and of this supposedly "immutable law."

It turns out that, just as Anwar Shaikh intuited, a man is the source of the revelation that says "this man speaks the truth about God." This is no different from Christians believing that the Bible is the word of God because it says in the Bible, "this is the word of God."

Or from me writing "This Church of the Churchless blog invariably contains wise, brilliant, marvelously written, irrefutable observations about the nature of spirituality, religion, and philosophical thought." If you don't believe me, just read that last sentence again.

In "God is not Great," Christopher Hitchens (who I usually find irritating, but I'm enjoying his book) says:

Thus the mildest criticism of religion is also the most radical and the most devastating one. Religion is man-made…And yet—the believers still claim to know! Not just to know, but to know everything.

Not just to know that god exists, and that he created and supervised the whole enterprise, but also to know what "he" demands of us—from our diet to our observances to our sexual morality.

…The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.

When I read RSSB literature now, I'm aware of how humancentric and egocentric most of the Sant Mat teachings are. Their truth is to be taken on faith, since absolute devotion to a man, the satguru of our time, is considered to be a prerequisite for learning the mysteries of the cosmos.

How or why this is the case—not explained. Even when I was a RSSB true believer, I never understood why initiation by a "perfect master" was necessary for me to contact the all-pervading conscious energy of spirit or shabd.

If it's all-pervading, the essence of everything (including me), why do I need to be connected to it? This is a big unanswered question in the Sant Mat literature, one which I relegated to the back of my mind for many years.

It's good to look freshly at unexamined assumptions. If something doesn't make sense, there's several possibilities. Maybe it isn't understood well enough. Or, it isn't true.

With Sant Mat, for a long time I favored the former explanation. Now, I'm strongly leaning toward the latter.

Comments

[anonymous]

Hello There,

My family (former Mormons) have been devoted followers of this philosophy since just after I was born and I myself have had many of these same questions. If you have doubts and questions, you might want to ask Master himself if he's ever in your area or if you ever make a trip to the Dera. I've heard someone ask a similar question once. They asked why he, nor anyone else could explain things in plain english or any other term that they could understand. He said, because it can't be explained. Only experienced. You will never understand until you experience it. The closest analogy he could use was this (or along the lines of this). "Trying to explain the sound and the meaning behind the sound would be like trying to explain bio-chemestry to a small child. You could explain it to them all day and they will never understand. You have to wait for them to mature and learn many other basic principals before they will ever begin to understand.

If it were an exact science that someone could explain in terms we all could understand, they would have done it by now and there wouldn't be all these different religions and beliefs. Everyone would be doing the same thing. If that's what you're looking for, the answer to the meaning of life with proof, you're probably never going to find it.

I guess my point is, if you have questions and doubts about the teachings, you should try asking him yourself at one of his satsangs. That would be a better way to try to find the answers you are looking for than to speak to other followers, or try to figure it out for yourself based on the literature.

I've noticed that I am rarely ever satisfied with answers to questions i've asked my parents or other satsangis; however, when master gives satsang and people ask questions, he always explains it in a way i can understand. When the person asking the question is still not satisfied, he usually just tells them that he's not there to convince them of anything, or make them believe, he is just telling them the truth. He says the path is not for everyone and if you find spiritual happiness in another path to go with it.

I hope you find your answers.

Cheers~

[Sita]

Well, even when the master himself give answers,it never can become clear over here..
So why try longer!!
He CAN'T tell the REAL TRUTH,with this words over here and in this body,they tell..BUT they tell VERY HEAVY stuff..so WHY do they tell halfway stuff,like chaurasi,while they DON"T explain WHY..?????
I think and even FEEL that as cruel right now.
At first it seemed that the LOVE was more important,the love for the Sat Guru..
But now I feel as if I woke up and hear and see what they(the masters)tell/told,and I don't want to hear even that kind of stuff any longer,I feel even angry about that part of santmat.
The love and vegetarian part I am happy with, I learned that young,also some meditation is good imo,but the teachings ..one can shiffer about.
And again..I feel really angry about the terrible santmat theory.

[David Smith]

As a third generation (Ex)Satsangi I could not agree more with your evolving skepticism at the glaring absurdities in Sant Mat or the Radha Soami Teachings.

Has anyone before or after the founder, Soami Ji, ever claimed with such poetic license the exaggerated and dubious RS spiritual regions trumping traditional Hindu cosmology?

Keep up the good work Brain. One person saved from this personality cult worship cul-de-sac of life is worth your efforts.

The word for today is; GULLIBILITY

[Brian]

Anonymous, a few thoughts: if the master says he can't explain the teachings, because they can only be experienced, what point is there in asking him to explain the teachings?

Isn't this what the Pope would say? Or Muslim imams would say? Or Zen adepts would say? Or any religious - spiritual - mystical teacher would say? It's a mystery. Deal with it.

Which is my main point in this post. If the truth of a teaching isn't founded in reality, but has to be taken on faith in a human being, it is exceedingly shaky.

Every religion says, "have faith in the words of the founder/guru/prophet/whoever." You ask me to do the same thing. But I'm not into words anymore. I'm into reality. Why should I be content with more words?

Like I said, I have heard from people who have done just what you suggested. They have had personal interviews with the master. They have looked him in the eye and asked direct questions. They have come away feeling that he didn't know what devotees believe he knows.

That's a fact. Now, I'm sure other people come away with a different impression. I'm just saying that it's erroneous to consider that if someone had more intimate contact with a guru or spiritual master, that would resolve their questions.

I've had quite a few one on one sessions with Gurinder Singh and Charan Singh. I still have doubts. I didn't experience anything that made me think, "this is god incarnate."

I agree that experience is the thing. However, I'm suggesting that when we limit ourselves by restricting our experience to only certain allowable areas, that is counter productive.

A scientific perspective says, "I'm open to truth, no matter how it manifests." A religious perspective says, "This is how the truth will manifest; don't look for anything else."

[Catherine]

A Sant Mat blog comment calling me on again!
' the vast masses of people are more likely to believe a large lie than a small one' Hitler; Mein Kampf ( not an exact qtn.!)
J. Johnson spun a good yarn after his authoritarian fashion and to my young mind at the time, I was completely seduced by the posibilities of knowing the mysteries! I was idealistic, healthy, curious, fairly bright-eyed and bushy tailed, lured by the fabulous Himalayan Guru and Shangri-la books and films out then- all new and foreign and promising. This was one of the trends to embark on then for a young adventurous Western person- to look to the wise men of the East.
Unfortunately, I and many other Westerners was not equipped with enough broad information nor had I learned a specific method of systematically checking myself and the person posing as Guru. JJ's formula for determining the authenticity of a guru was all I gave myself to go on and it was hook, line and sinker! I am pleased to see that even David Lane who did have the philosophical tools of discernment learned through many years of study in this field, also considered the formula a good one. But is the formula good for determining God in human flesh, or a self realised individual? Or even a good teacher? Could it be likened to a very carefully considered law which prevents exploitation of the person living according to it?

The only real formula I see that we have is through self and general observation while participating in life and probably through practising a form of meditation or effortless effort type concentration. Any better solutions out there?!

Look at trends. A woman wearing big hair, matching belt, earings and shoes fits into the eighties, but would look odd today;- We truly believe this. Young westerners followed gurus in droves in the 60's and 70's but not now.
The written and visual media today is far wider than it was in those days. So today people can be more broadly informed. It is not for nothing that Sant mat chooses not to broadcast or debate on the web- it is stuck in a past period. Science has also moved along rapidly.

I wonder how many of us followers were from Protestant or Calvanistic backgrounds ie: how many of us already had a tendancy to go for a more rigorous, plain, austere, masculine approach such as Sant Mat provides. Would people raised with the more ornate Catholic approach as readily find a home in Sant Mat? Would boarding school or a more militaristic upbringing attract us to Sant Mat? Do we have a neediness for a father figure?

As mentioned in one of your previous essays- people will continue on a path with no result,( having a good and comfortable snooze in meditation every morning even to the detriment of their own aliveness), just incase!

[Jennifer Morrison]

Having studied RS philosophy a long while-I come to the following conclusion-The "One size fits all"encompassing the awareness of a mental retard,a psychotic,and a PhD in religious studies" illustrates how stretchy the RS fabric must be in order to "satisfy" all human mentality.
Jumping out of this stretchy fabric is also a momentous feat.
The mind-numbing and paradoxical features of RS will be left to the "experts".........v152

[tao]

Brian,

Its funny how I was just thinking the very same thing about the Western RS Newsletter. It shows up in the mail as usual, and I give it a cursory glance in spite of knowing that most, if not all that Savarese writes is just more confirmation that the belief system as it always presented, is so transparent in its baiting and manipulation. And it is designed with one thing in mind: to keep the satsangi hooked.

And people like Anonymous just don't get it.

[OshoRobbins]

Hi everyone,

Let me first address the question of all knowing. I met one of the other sant mat masters many years and after this incident I am about to describe he became and still is a good personal friend of mine. I can talk to him about anything and usually do. I even offend him at times, but do I care? Poeple are too afraid of these masters.

Anyway - I was at a meeting with this sant mat master and I asked a question about all-knowing. I asked it directly - "As you sit before me - what do you know." To my surprise he answered it just as directly - "I know nothing". All-knowing does not exist he explained. WOW - someone I could relate to without all the nonsense. I now know there is no such thing as all-knowing - it is all made up and if you believe it - you convince yourself it is true. The Master is just a human being like you. If he is realised then he knows who he really is - that is what all-knowing really means - he knows his true nature.

Is Gurinder realised? I have no idea. In my opinion he has some of the characteristics of a realised being, and he may well be. Why else would he have the courage to change the teachings? I have personally qurstioned him in public about the regions and he has stated categorically that they are not literal - just states of consciousness. WOW - in one simple statement he has just done away with a whole generation of believers and a whole library of sant mat books. He even said to me "Burn the books". This is exactly how an enlightened person would behave. Also he constantly awakens people by geting them to question. The one thing I have a problem with if the focus on meditation and some of the rutuals that he still carries on like giving darshan and even wearing a turban. Why bother with all the formalities. If I was in his position i would turn for sometimes for satsang without a turban. Who needs a turban? And why even keep the beard? Part of the function of an enlightened being is to shock people out of fixed ways. Maybe he is just playing yet.

The other point - truth can never be explained in words. It is for you to realise. Words may help or hinder.

A king goes to a zen master asking about truth, but says he is in a hurry, so please be brief. The zen master replies that it just as well he is in a hurry because it won't take long. He then just sat and looked into the distance. After a few minutes the king asked if he had forgotten that he was meant to reply to his question. The zen master said "But I have already replied."

Truth is not in words. You ARE the truth. All words take you away. In sant mat it is different though because you have this whole bunch of speakers talking about meditation and if you question them - they cannot answer anything. I used to be one of the speakers myself - until the banned me. The difference was that I never taught blindly - I spoke from my truth and it touched people - I would get people gathering at the end - and this was too much for the organisers. Their ego could only take so much - so i was banned. I enjoyed it - both the talks and being banned. Even now if anyone asks a confrontational question - everyone thinks it is me.

- OshoRobbins

[Manjit]

Harjap, I don't know if you caught my last message. I'm Manjit, you met me at A's house several years ago, and I cam around your house too. I lost your tel no. Please email me at [email protected]...

Hey, are you associated with Tony Robbins now? You guys charging £997 for enlightenment?

Hmmmmmmm. Contact me, I'll give it for free....:o) (joke)

HARJAP; please contact me on [email protected] brother.....

[Tucson Bob]

OshoRobbins, or anyone else who cares to listen:
If the teachings were true, why would Gurinder have any need to change them? Is the next master going to change Gurinders teachings? And the one after that? This is absurd. I won't get into the main philosophical changes now, but here is a comment on the RS diet situation.

In the old days, under Charan Singh's rule, it was OK to eat cheese that had rennet. Charan used to say that we have to live in this world and can't be too fanatical about this. Still, even then, it was our duty to inquire of the waitress if the crust of the pie we were about to order was made with lard. And the egg thing..
"Waitress, do you know if this cookie has eggs in it?"
"Well, gee, I don't know."
"Could you please go back and ask in the kitchen if the cookie has eggs in it?"
"Ok, I'll be right back."
She comes back in a few minutes and says the cookie mix comes already prepared and they don't know for sure if there are eggs in the mix.
"Could you please read the label on the bag to see if there are eggs in this cookie?"
She rolls her eyes and says OK.
She comes back and says, "Yes, there are eggs in the mix. It is the sixth ingredient down on the list of ingredients."
"Oh, in that case please take the cookie back and I'll have a piece of pie instead."
"Cherry or Apple?"
"Well, I'm not sure. Is there lard in the crust?"

I'll tell you, this got very tiring after awile.

Now, Gurinder says no rennet and satsangis must be very fastidious about the cheese they eat. I understand there are now RS approved cheese lists. But what about the calf that must be born in order for the cow to produce milk for the rennetless cheese? It gets turned into veal cutlets. Maybe the next master will ban dairy products altogether.

To each his own, but to me this dietary hairsplitting is off the deep end.

[tao]

Tuscon Bob,

I'll lend a big DITTO to that!

The RS/Santmat religious trip is just riddled with this kind of petty nonsense and contradictions. And I am continually so amazed at just how gullible and brain-washed all the satsangi believers are and remain.

[Manjit]

Hello All, for those with an interest in all things RS related, you may (WILL!) find this interesting. Parts 2 & 3 are well worth waiting to get to!

Brian, there are several references to Plotinus here too, if you're interested.

http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.citymaker.com/page/page/4362737.htm

[Chris]

Have you ever experienced the Light and Power eminating from being in the presence of the Master? Have you ever been convinced he was God? If you have, were or are you able to hold on to that?

[Brian]

Chris, No, Yes, and No. An elaboration.

I've felt a power emanating from the Master. But it's difficult, if not impossible, to separate that from the position the Master holds.

As I wrote about in my "Did I see God in first class?" post, once I was a few feet from Gurinder Singh on an airplane and didn't recognize him.

I felt nothing special. Until I heard all the whispers of "That's him!" from people behind me. Then I sort of felt something. But not really.

What I felt was my own belief rattling around in my mind. At one time I did feel that the RSSB gurus are God. I had no proof of that, but I believed it.

I couldn't hold onto it because it was an artificial belief, not a knowing. I knew it as long as I thought it. No longer. True knowing, on the other hand, isn't founded on a belief or thought.

Every time I look at my dog, she's there. I don't bring her dogness into existence through my belief "She's a dog." Or, the way my wife and I treat her, "She's Almighty Dog."

I have no idea what it would mean to say that someone is God. It sounds more than a little ridiculous to me now. I wanted to believe that this was possible because I wanted to be God myself. That's the Sant Mat promise.

Maybe I'm a bit more mature now. I'm happy just to be me. Fully me. If I'm more than that, that's a bonus. But first I want to be really me; then I'll ponder whether there could be anything else I am.

[tao]

Chris,

First of all, the 'master' notion is a myth.

Second, everyone and everything is God, not just some one guy alone in a turban playing the guru role. This so-called "Master" that you speak of, is no different than any other human being.

And third, I have seen the so-called called "Master" that you speak of (and all the other ones as well), and there is no such "Light and Power" emanating. Nor is there anything to "hold on to". The guy you are referring to is just merely a leader of a relatively obscure spiritual cult. He is not some special divine personage such as you have inferred ("...he was God").

So wake-up Chris... This so-called "Master" is really just another very ordinary human being.

[tao]

Brian,

Your comment just above was very well said. And I feel the very same way as you have expressed so simply in your last paragraph:

"...I'm a bit more mature now. I'm happy just to be me. Fully me. If I'm more than that, that's a bonus. But first I want to be really me; then I'll ponder whether there could be anything else I am."

[Chris]

Brian,

I do remember a wonderful author from the past mentioning in one of his books that he felt his mind was held in a vice for twenty years by a spiritual teacher in India. Thomas Troward was his name. He was her Majesty's Assistant Commissioner and later Divisional Judge of the North Indian Punjab from 1869 until his retirement in 1896. He had made a tremendous contribution to Christian Science, but I do not believe Mary Baker Eddy (founder of Christian Science) gave Thomas much recognition for it.

Would you happen to know who his Guru was? I have not been able to locate that information and I thought you might know.

Would you agree that the Master notion has been noted in religious and spiritual books throughout history? It is certainly possible there are Masters (God-Men) in this world. It is possible that Sant Mat Masters are fully realized and not just ordinary humans. I am sure that you have felt and maybe still feel that way at times.

How can we possibly know for sure unless we actually know? Then how could we ever express it and tell anybody about it if we really do know.

Have not our lives been enhanced by our seeking?

[Tucson Bob]

Chris,
I used to sometimes become immersed in a white light aura when in the presence of the master which I attributed to his spiritual power. Now I understand this phenomena differently.

Whatever appears in your awareness is what 'you' ARE whether it is rocks, trees, so-called masters or bomb-throwing terrorists. Any power experienced from viewing a 'master' personage is a projection of the 'power' of your own awareness. You are THAT.

Beware of anyone setting themselves up as a master. The brighter the package, the bigger the warning. This is not to say there aren't those who may serve to help clarify your understanding as you go along.

[tao]

Chris,

I hesitate to comment on this blog anymore, probably due to the rather poor reception that I've had here in the past. And its funny how I am hardly ever at odds with what Brian has to say, yet I am the one that most often gets criticised and bashed for being more or less in sympathy and agreement with him. It must be that some people, in their spiritual immaturity, need a villian to blame.

That being said, I would like to express my thoughts about some of your statements which I find to be rather typical of the spiritual guru-cult mindset.

You wrote:
"It is certainly possible there are Masters (God-Men) in this world. It is possible that Sant Mat Masters are fully realized and not just ordinary humans."

You premise hinges upon this rather unenlightened idea that some particular individual is somehow more God-ly than the rest. As if someone is God in human form. As if there is such a thing as "fully realized", and "not ordinary".

These notions stem from a fundamental duality in one's sense of self and other. As if all are not of the same essential nature. As if somehow the so-called "master" is special and holy and has something which others do not possess.

I can only tell you from my own direct experience that this is not so. The "master" is a myth. Not maybe or possibly, but definitely a myth. Until you understand that, you will continue on seeking and thinking and holding out hope that someone else has the magic mystic key, and you do not.

That is nothing but your own ignorance and illusion. You bought into the "master" myth at some point in your life, and you have not yet fully awakened from its spell. Even my telling you this, you will doubt... until you finally see the truth about it for yourself. The more you are really willing to sacrifice and let go of everything that you have thus far accepted and believed, the sooner you will truly wake up and come to your senses so to speak.

"How can we possibly know for sure unless we actually know?"

As I just pointed out, the more you really want to know the truth, and are willing to put aside everything that you have heretofore bought into, the closer you will come to knowing that what you thought and believed before is not the case. And the closer and sooner you will come to simply being your own authentic self.

"how could we ever express it and tell anybody about it if we really do know."

Why do you assume that expressing it so hard? It is not hard at all. I feel that your hestation and inhibition is fear that has been conditioned into you by a artificial belief system.

You can be free if you want to, more than yholding on to your supposedly comfortable illusions.

"Have not our lives been enhanced by our seeking?"

Perhaps in a paradoxical way. But seeking is an endless thing. It persists only so long as you have not yet fully understood your own self, your own self-perfected state.

As Tucson Bob so succintly mentioned to you: "...viewing a 'master' personage is a projection of the 'power' of your own awareness. You are THAT. Beware of anyone setting themselves up as a master."

As long as you keep hoping and trying to rely on some outside force or agent, such as is your assumed idea of a "realized master", you will continue to remained disempowered and a captive of the myth.

I do hope you will take my words to heart rather than recoiling and contracting as some others have done when confronted with their illusions.

[Tucson Bob]

Chris,

I said to you in my comment above:

"This is not to say there aren't those who may serve to help clarify your understanding as you go along."

I think Tao may be one of 'those'.

[Chris]

Brian, Tao, Bob, Osho,

In the Christian Bible, a disciple finds Jesus and John the Baptist together and says, "I have found the Messiahs. It is very interesting that he referred to them both as Messiahs.

There have always been great spiritual Teachers throughout history. Some religions and spiritual paths were based on Their very existence in this world.

The words spoken by these so-called God-Men are very profound. You have to wonder sometimes. How can they speak in such a profound way?

If the religions and spiritual paths of the past speak of the existence of Masters, than why can we not believe in the possibility? Maybe it is true. Many have claimed it to be true in the past. Can skepticism be a disease sometimes?

I can understand that the outer light one sees can be an illusion of the mind or the reflection of oneself, but some claim to have seen the Master and the light within. Some are okay with being the last disciple standing in the world. Some feel they have seen the truth within and have unshakable faith. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are telling us the truth. Why not be patient and return to patience?

Can any seeker after truth deny how profound Sant Mat is?

Maybe the Myth is necessary for the Myth to return Home and become the Reality.

[Heraklit]

Chris, many have spoken in a very profound way but they still didn't think of themselves as god-men and similarly Jesus does not point to himself as the Christ, the Messiah, but rather he is pointing at the Divine Logos. He is explicitly against all idols, including the idol of gods among men. His God is the unity of being. He would oppossed to the idea, that only he ( or some select human being )is the son of god. On the contrary, for him, no thing is outside of God and as such cannot be nothing else but God.Any kind of idol worship ( be it the idol of Jesus, God or a Holy Book ) is against his teachings and means distancing yourselves from God who is allinclusive. The minute one starts to worship one thing, he loses God.
As for the Christian Bible, alot of the texts were written in order to establish Jesus as the promised messiah and these narratives are mostly not representative of Jesus's teachings.
Reality is here, now.

[Dennis]

Perfect Living Master or Flawed Dead Impostor?

God or Me,My,Mine?

The Unwritten Word or the Letters that Fetter?

Die to Live or Live to Die?

[Chris]

Thank you all for your spending time to respond. It is interesting to have a dialogue like this over the internet. It looks like we are trying to help each other understand. I guess words really do fall short.

Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? Words have always failed to explain.

Those who know cannot explain It to those who do not know. Those who do not know cannot explain It to those who know. Those who know cannot explain It to those who know. Those who do not know cannot explain It to those who do not know.

Experience, experience, experience...It is personal.

More words...:-)

Kind regards,

[Edward]

Chris,
The elves have this story about the power of words:

Long ago, there was a story teller who practised and practised.

[Tears]

I have taken from my spiritual path for years and have become a hero in the world. I have now turned my back on it and have thrown it down the river. Maybe I should thank my old path for giving me so much. Tears...

[xexon]

I first encountered Sant Mat almost 20 years ago. I came across an original copy of "The Path of The Masters" in an esoteric kind of library.

It had a profound effect on me. I had come home.

Like most seekers, I had digested many libraries worth of books in search of answers. It stopped upon this encounter.

I have never been initiated, nor am I a part of the community. I did once write Charan Singh and got a kind and personal reply.

I have centered myself within this system, and it has made a yogi out of me. The view from up here is quite amazing.

I am sorry, that some have not been able to connect to it's teachings. But it goes back to the old saying that a poor craftsman will blame his tools.

You know who you are.

Perhaps, you are just not ready?

x

[catherine]

Xexon
Sounds like you went your own way and did not ask for initiation. Positioning yourself within the system is impossible without initiation.

The foundation of Sant Mat is being questioned here. It's aim, it's levels, it's Guru's power,it's history,it's technique.

Although it is the path of sound and light, experiencing these two phenomena should never be an issue for anyone who is on the Sant Mat path, the gurus tell us. Gurus claim to hold back sound and light from some very fine adherents, so that they will not develop pride, or go off the rails. Others who possibly hear sound and see light are not considered more enlightened because of it. This is not the acid test. The acid test is; through careful observation in Sant Mat meditation and life in general using one's own body and mind as a laboratory, and through all other research possible, does the Sant Mat initate concerned, know in truth that he/she has reached a state of vegetation or is getting worse by remaining on the Sant Mat path? In other words, the meditator reaches a point where he has no choice but to move on.

You have a good view from up there? Julian Johnson ( a la ' The Path of the Masters') would believe that your view couldn't be as good as Sant Mat's - the Royal Highway with the highest Guru, going to the highest place, and taking the quickest route. Maybe it's time for you to ask for initiation and put it to the test. Johnson will tell you there is no other way.

Ready....Steady....GO!

[Brian]

catherine, nicely said. Indeed, xexon is mistaken in believing that you can be a Sant Mat follower by reading the books.

Initiation by a "perfect guru" is the essence of Sant Mat. Absent that, it isn't Sant Mat. As you noted, the claim is that this offers access to the absolute highest spiritual path.

So if you aren't initiated, you're not really "up there." Sorry xexon. You've got a choice: (1) accept that what you've experienced really is true, so Sant Mat isn't. Or (2) get initiated so you can get the real thing.

[xexon]

I have not stated that I don't want initiation.

But until that time comes, I have been busy preparing the vessel which will hold it. I like to clean my home before being visited by a king.

Even in the preparation, much has been gained.

x

[Paul]

Brian,

In both the cases it turns out that Sant Mat is (1) true and (2) you can get the real thing. Please note that Xexon wrote:

"I have centered myself within this system (Sant Mat), and it has made a yogi out of me. The view from up here is quite amazing."

The Master and the Disciple relationship does not begin with "initiation". This relationship gets established long before even the disciple comes into the body. One may become a "true disciple" even without formal initiation and conversely one may not become a disciple even after initiation since the disciple may or may not accept the relationship from his/her end. You must have heard the story of "Eklavya" who was not a formal disciple of "Drona" but mentally Eklavya accepted Drona as his Master and started his practice in archery in the epic of Mahabharata and eventually became better archer than Drona's best formal disciple and archer "Arjuna."

Initiation is a mere explanation of the process of meditation and you are given 5 words formally and you get know about some of the sign posts, which one may not even remember after the initiation. The method and technique of meditation and the way of life is described in almost all of the Sant Mat books and one may even dig out the 5 words from the books. The point is with what mental state the disciple accepts his Master as "the Master" and gives him/herself to the practice of meditation and way of life. One may be formally initiated but may still denounce the relationship from one's end unilaterally due to ego or whatever other reason and may not become Arjuna. On the other hand one may not have been formally initiated but may accept the relationship whole heartedly and may become Eklavya.

[Edward]

Per Paul and Xexon, the dog has buddha nature.

[Tucson Bob]

Xexon and Paul,
I was once a satsangi, but my view has changed. Consider this if you will:

Living a spiritual life, that is, a life where there are certain disciplines performed with a spiritual goal in mind has no particular relevance to realization, insight, true understanding, awakening, enlightenment, liberation or whatever you want to call it.

We are characters in a play, and as characters we may find ourselves involved in seeking enlightenment/liberation/salvation through various practices, prayer, chanting, religions, yoga, meditation, seminars, self-help groups, and the list goes on.

It may appear in the play that there is a progression or series of stages through which one passes to reach realization, but this progression is not necessary for realization to appear. None of the apparant stages has the ability to produce awakening which could appear at any time in any circumstance.

There is the presumption of individuality with reunion with the whole or 'god' as the goal and, as a means to reach this goal, all sorts of methods are provided in the play to prepare or purify the individual to get rid of the ego or 'I' for this reunion.

The irony of all this is that the individual is already that which he or she is seeking. There is nothing that can make the seeker any more than what they already are. The search and all the methods are there for no more reason than being part of the play and for the individual to play a part in.

Realization requires no spiritual qualifications. One who meditates in a cave, eats the purest food, performs kundalini, who rises through various chakras to the thousand-petalled lotus is no closer to reunion than a fast food eating prostitute or gambler, because consciousness is perfectly present in any condition.

But consciousness, already being consciousness in whatever form it appears, has no need of a vegetarian diet, yoga asanas, gurus, meditation, deep breathing, fasting, penances or prayer. If there is a liking for these things, all well and good, but they won't help you get any closer to the consciousness that you already are.

The attention could be in exotic planes observing the creation and dissolution of the universe, experiencing ecstatic cosmic visions, but the fundamental field of awareness in which all this occurs is just as present in the most mundane of circumstances as well.

You, Consciousness, appear in Your play in the role of teachers, disciples, students, gurus, masters. There may be 'spiritual' events or what the individual believes to be enlightenment that appears to be the result of engagement in various methods or association with gurus. The individual, now feeling 'progressed', may now find himself in the guru role and pass this on to his followers as the 'truth'. Some individuals may even have the ability to induce certain visions and transcendant events in others.

Fine. This all just part of the play of consciousness, but none of it leads to the perfection of what already is, as it is. This Presence has not arisen from an imagined past leading to an imagined future. At any moment there is only now and what presently appears as a play in awareness.

The apparently separate individual may embark upon a spiritual path or some sort of self improvement, but only the clarity of what you really are undermines the search for spiritual awakening or for being anything other than what already is.

YOU appear presently as the play, already wide awake, unable therefore to awaken. You are always obvious to yourself..never hidden. The characters in the play only have an apparent separate existence, but they are really You celebrating Yourself, immersed in the great game of life as You looking for Yourself. Sometimes you recognize Yourself as the appearances in Your Play, sometimes not, but here is no purpose for You to find Yourself..nothing is necessary, for right now You are that Consciousness just appearing as a character.

All along You have been the butt of Your own cosmic joke, mesmerized by the multi-facets of Your own cosmic game.

The search for the extraordinary is over, life is as it is.

Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.
After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water

But really there is no one to be enlightened. The eye can't see itself. What is absolute is pure non-objectivity. That's the trick. You are the seeing and what is being seen, but you are no thing in and of yourself. You can't make an object out of the Consciousness that you are, for what could it be that would then be looking at Consciousness? You are Everything and no thing at all.

[Paul]

TB

Appreciate you taking so much time out to write such a long and lengthy reply for Xexon's and my consideration. I certainly appreciate your effort in writing such a long, lengthy, and intellectual note. But I have to confess that I am a simple person and I use my intellect to function in this material plane but I do not allow my intellect to confuse myself to very simple facts and questions. I read your reply twice and while I appreciate your effort and reply I again have to confess that the more I tried to understand your note the more I was leading towards utter confusion! The problem is that it is the intellect which creates questions and confusion and then it tries to solve it as well and the dilemma in spirituality is that one needs to pierce the veil of intellect through intellect. Again, while I appreciate your efforts and thoughts for my consideration, at this time I have kept my intellect aside and I am going to continue to be a Satsangi that you once were.

Brian - my note was addressed to you and I know you will also come out with something which would intellectually be even more confusing and spread more confusion instead of "clear thinking"!!

[Brian]

Paul, I don't understand what you mean when you say that someone can be a satsangi without being initiated. If that was true--if a higher power guides one's life naturally from before birth--you'd have Taoism, not Sant Mat.

Actually, Sant Mat teaches that at initiation the soul of the disciple is connected with shabd, the sound current. Now, this doesn't make a lot of sense, because everything in existence is supposed to be part and parcel of shabd--but that's the teaching.

So if you're not initiated, you're not "saved." Having given satsang for thirty years or so, and having read every RSSB book (plus having written a couple), I'm pretty darn sure of that.

I resonate more with your conception of Sant Mat, but you have a heretical view of this philosophy. Just wanted to point that out. I'm not saying you're wrong (or right), just that in fundamentalist Sant Mat it isn't up to the disciple to accept the guru; it is up to the guru to accept the disciple.

[Paul]

TB

You wrote "I was once a satsangi, but my view has changed."

For a moment consider this if you will:
From Master's view point you may or are still a satsangi and he may or will still take care of the sheeps marked and alloted to him.

Intellect creats confusion and questions and more questions and more confusion and calculations. This reminds of one of the Zen quotes:

"Zero is where the fun begins, everywhere else there is too much calculation."

Regards,

[Paul]

Brian, It boils down to pondering and understanding what you read or write. In spite that one may have read or written many Sant Mat books. My point of view is that it is one thing to read or write and it is yet another thing to have an understanding of what one reads or writes. I have heard Baba ji time and again in his discources that one does not become satsangi by mere initiation, however on the other hand one may be a satsangi even without initiation.

In the Sant Mat that I know the word "Satsangi" is defined as "one who seeks the truth".

Surely there may be many schools for seeking the truth and Sant Mat is one of them. Also, not every school is meant for everyone. One who is constantly failing in 6th Grade may not get admitted into Harward or Prinston for Masters degree.

Another point is that one may already belong to any existing "school" or "ism" or "ity" including taoism, hinduism, sikhism, sufism, budhism, judaism, or chrianity, is free and may choose any other school for Masters degree. Again, not every school is for everyone. Those you choose to go and stay in Sant Mat school are not forced to go to that school. Some may choose to go the school regularly at their own choice and may not ask for initiation but may still mentally accept the Master as their guru. So where is the question of Master's acceptance? The question of Master's acceptance or rejection is subject to the application of the student, who are free to apply or not to apply, noone forces noone. It is up to the disciple to apply for initiation and accept the guru and the guru accepts those who apply sincerely.

Brian, to me your condition seems to be neither here nor there. One can't have the cake and eat it too! It seems to me that you are neither in Sant Mat nor out of Sant Mat and your condition is like a fundamenatlist, who is so obsessed with Sant Mat that you can neither be in it nor out of it completely but still obsessed with it. Obsession is good. Remain obsessed as obsession is yet another form of love and it is this love of yours for Sant Mat that will ferry you across!

Over and out!!

[Edward]

Excellent! (I am clapping!)

Reading and writing, as operations of intellect, are the ground of questions and confusion. TB's spritual exegesis was remarkably clear to me, yet dense to Paul. Paul's post to Brian was clear to Brian, yet opaque to me.

How will I know if I am communicating? Here is my leap: I understand hexidecimal numeration, therefore I have been taught directly by Baruch Spinoza. Or, I am Baruch Spinoza.

Any of this understanding is transportable. Knowing hexidecimal numeration, I am prepared to design high volume fluid delivery. Having met a Harvard grad, and really, really liked him, I can update my resume accordingly.

My intuition may tell me that Baruch Spinoza was not a Harvard graduate, but really, if it is something I read, I probably have it puzzled in my intellect.

If I take away the parameters of reasoned discourse, all the subjective reality is true. It is just difficult to get a diploma, or a decent burger this way. Because although, “The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here and you are out there,” we are going to have to agree on who said that, and when they said it, to guess if they were crazy, or reliable, like the elves.

[tao]

To Xenon,

Unfortunately for you, you only presume to know what Sant mat is all about. You clearly have little real understanding of what Sant mat is from the inside. It appears that you are just a superficial dilitante who no real experience with the various dimensions of Sant mat.

You say that you discovered Sant mat 20 years ago and that it was the end of your search, but after all these years you still remain on the outside and you still have not taken initiation.

To those of us who have actually traversed and practiced the path of Sant mat, and not just stood back on the sidelines as you have, your comment is transparent and indicates that you simply don't have any real first-hand experience or knowledge about Sant mat or its gurus and sangats.

The teachings of Sant mat state very clearly, that simply reading a book does not cut the mustard. And Sant mat itself also says that initiation is an absolutely fundamental and necessary requirement for progressing along the path. That's what Sant mat says.

If you try and contrive and fashion Sant mat in your own peculiar way and never actually become initiated or practice it, then you are not following Sant mat as it is taught by its gurus and its proponents.

Therefore, your personal views of regarding Sant mat as the be-all & end-all is but your own opinion and is without any real substance to back it up.

Xenon wrote: "It had a profound effect on me. I had come home."

Perhaps that is what you personally felt about it at the time, but such views and opinions hold little objective value in the over-all critical analysis of Sant mat.... especially copming from someone who has never practiced it.

Xenon wrote: "Like most seekers, I had ... ... in search of answers. It stopped upon this encounter."

It is obvious (to me at least), that your seeking and your "search" is far from "stopped" or finished. In fact, everything you have written in your post is testimony of your search and orientation of seeking.

Xenon wrote: "I have never been initiated, nor am I a part of the community."

In that case you have no real experiential first-hand knowledge of Sant mat.

Xenon wrote: "I have centered myself within this system, and it has made a yogi out of me."

You may intellectually identify yourself with Sant mat, but if you have not taken initiation and have never been involved in satsang and the sangat, then you are definitely not "within" the system. So don't try to pretend that you are.

Xenon wrote: "The view from up here is quite amazing."

What view? From where? Where is "up here"?Your vagueness betrays you. What exactly are referrring to? Are you referring to your own personal spiritual experiences and/or meditations? Just to say "amazing" is meaningless and does not impress anyone here.

Xenon wrote: "I am sorry, that some have not been able to connect to it's teachings."

The fact of the matter is that you don't know anything about what other people have or have not connected with. It is highly presumptious of you for you to suppose that others in this forum (who have vastly more direct experience with Sant mat than you do)... as you say "have not been able to connect to its' teachings". Many people here have been far more deeply connected to Sant mat (and its teachings) that you have. It think you need to adjust your perspective, because its way far out of focus.

Xenon wrote: "...the old saying that a poor craftsman will blame his tools."

I don't think you really know what you are talking about. No one here is blaming "tools". The questions and criticisms are all about the basic underlying premises of Sant mat and the various dimensions of its guru cultism.

Xenon wrote: "You know who you are."

Again, pretension will get you nowehere. However, it's fairly obvious that YOU yourself do NOT know who YOU really are. If you do, then please tell us, WHO ARE YOU?

"Perhaps, you are just not ready?"

Again, pretentious inferences such as this only betrays it's author. It is quite obvious that your comments all reveal that it is really you yourself who is the one who is "not ready".

It's also obvious that you came to this forum trying to one-up those who actually have far more understanding and direct experience with Sant mat than you do.

=======================================

To Catherine and Brian,

Your comments about xenon are right on target. It's curious how pretenders like Xenon, who by there own admission have have not "walked the walk", often try to appear to the rest of us as though they have.

[tao]

Paul,

Paul wrote: "In both the cases it turns out that Sant Mat is (1) true and (2) you can get the real thing."

Just where do you come off with such assertions? Where is this "true"? And where is this "real thing"? With all due respect, these kind of statements are utter nonsense. You have proven nothing. Seriously dude, do you take us to be so lame as to accept that, just becuse you say so?

Paul wrote: "The Master and the Disciple relationship does not begin with "initiation"."

That's absolutley incorrect. In Sant mat, one does not become a formal disciple until initiation is applied for, is accepted, and occurs. Your apparent personal interpretation about this is not what Sant mat teaches.

Paul wrote: "This relationship gets established long before even the disciple comes into the body."

That is also nonsense. It is related to, or part of the myth of the "marked souls" doctrine. And this idea also does not signify being a disciple prior to initiation.

Paul wrote: "One may become a "true disciple" even without formal initiation and conversely one may not become a disciple even after initiation since the disciple may or may not accept the relationship from his/her end."

That is simply BS. That is NOT at all what Sant mat and RS teaches. You are sorly mistaken. Go read the Sant mat/RS literature.

Paul wrote: "Initiation is a mere explanation of the process of meditation..."

You are mistaken. That is not the extent of initiation. That is only secondary in the event of initiation. Initiation itself is the formal acknowledgement and acceptance of the disciple by the guru, and the spiritual transmission from the guru to the disciple. Initiation is NOT simply a "mere explanation" as you say. You clearly do not comprehend formal shabda initiation as it is taught by Sant mat & RS.

Paul wrote: "The point is with what mental state the disciple accepts his Master as "the Master" and gives him/herself to the practice of meditation and way of life."

That is also incorrect. That only applies to a satsangis spititual progress or advancement, not to initiation. Initiation is formal acceptance of the disciple by the guru. Initiation has nothing to do with how the disciple progresses afterwards. That is alnothe matter altogether.

Paul wrote: "One may be formally initiated but may still denounce the relationship..."

Perhaps one may do so, but according to the teachings of Sant mat, once initiation occurs, even though on the surface the path may be rejected by the disciple, initiation will never be become null and void. Your personal interpretation of initiation is clearly contrary to what Sant mat actually teaches.

Paul wrote: "On the other hand one may not have been formally initiated but may accept the relationship whole heartedly and may become..."

One may accept the teaching and even the guru, but one is not regarded as a disciple without being given formal initiation. You can play games and pretend all you want, but what you are saying is not what Sant mat itself teaches.

[xexon]

A good parent will stop and pick up a crying child.

God is a good parent.

If your cry is sincere, it will be heard.

x

[tao]

Paul,

Paul wrote: "From Master's view point you may or are still a satsangi and he may or will still take care of the sheeps marked and alloted to him."

Your statement above is evidence of your belief in the dogma of Sant mat. This is a dogma which advocates blind faith in the so-called "Master". And your belief is also probably why you are so uncomprehending and admittedly dense about what TB has shared with you.

In contrast, I found TB's offering to be quite crystal clear.

Paul wrote: "Intellect creats confusion and questions and more questions and more confusion and calculations."

There was nothing intellectual about the essential meaning behind TB's comments. It cuts right to the core.

Paul wrote " I have heard Baba ji time and again in his discources that one does not become satsangi by mere initiation, however on the other hand one may be a satsangi even without initiation."

That is mere words. And regardless of what GSD says, the fact of the matter is that Sant mat does not regard one as a formal satsangi until initiation.

Paul wrote: "I know the word "Satsangi" is defined as "one who seeks the truth".

Satsang literally means abidance in the Truth/Being, or in the company of Truth/Being. However, in Sant mat it is used to refer to one who has received formal initiation.

Paul wrote: "One who is constantly failing in 6th Grade may not get admitted into Harward or Prinston for Masters degree."

Apparently you are implying that those who fail to value Sant mat, are inferior. That is a mistaken and grossly ignorant perspective.

Paul wrote; "Brian, to me your condition seems to be neither here nor there. One can't have the cake and eat it too!"

That is also nonsense that you have been conditioned to think and believe. In this you are a typical believer of dogma.

Paul wrote: "It seems to me that you are neither in Sant Mat nor out of Sant Mat..."

That is good. One who is neither "in Sant Mat nor out of Sant Mat" is one who abides awake in Reality.

Paul wrote: "Obsession is good."

Man... are you confused or what? You are really worse off that I thought. To be obsessed is to be in Maya. And Brian seems hardly "obsessed" about anything. However, guys like you are obviously "obsessed" with Sant mat and guru-cultism.

Paul wrote: "obsession is yet another form of love"

That's a load of BS. You are way off the track. Love has nothing whatsoever to do with "obsession". There is no similarity at all.

Real love is not related to an object. Love is the very nature of the Atman.

Paul wrote: "...it is this love of yours for Sant Mat that will ferry you across!"

Paul, come on dude, that's just more blind parroting of RS dogma BS. Boats like that are destined to sink.

[tao]

X,

That may be true for you... but I myself don't need any God, I don't need a parent, I am not a crying child, and I don't need to be picked up.

It seems that you are out of your depth here. Go find yourself the father-figure guru that you seem to desire.

[Paul]

I am amused by visualizng the scene in which Edward is clapping like a monkey. Tao is hopping on one leg and has lost his/her way home. Brian, the boss of them all is busy writing another post for tomorrow and TB preparing for another confusing intellectual jargon that says in confused 360 degree language that you don't need to do anything and sure only Edward understands him since he has brains of a monkey and only knows clapping.

So here is how the sequence of events go on this blog. First the boss, Brian, comes up with his day's story or whine. Some write their views "for" and some "against" to what the boss Brian writes. As soon as someone writes sensible "against" or "opposite" to the Big Boss, TB jumps in with long, lengthy, wordy, and confusing BS and then Edward gets in like a faithful dog and tries to protect, defend and bark for Brian, TB etc. and he comes up with his own BS and then be sure that Tao will then come in as the big body guard for all of them to take everything "against" sentence by sentence and on and off you see some other names like Manjit, Sita and a few others. Sometimes I also feel TB, Edward, and Tao are paid assistants or puppets of Brian, who may still be utterly confused in spite of writing a book called "Life is fair" - sometimes he'll say "Life is fair" and other times he'll say "Life is Unfair" on this very blog. Sometimes he'll say I am still pretty much a Satsangi and sometimes he'll say he is not. Sometimes he'll say he is still a disciple of Charan Singh and sometimes he'll come with his whines to establish himself as a "hero" or "Guru" of the disguised, confused, lame and lost.

In a nutshell this blog is a complete waste of time and a big time baloony! This seems like old boys club of old retirees who are bored with life and have nothing meaningful to look forward to and are probably very rich and have a lot of time to spread thier own confusion and whine.

So new readers - one word of caution - stay away from the fire, if you put your hand in the fire your hand is bound to get burnt, similarly stay away from this BS blog of dogs, monkeys, lames and confused otherwise you also run the risk of losing your sanity or becoming lame and getting lost and utter confused.

Oops! truth is always bitter!!

[Paul]

Tao wrote: "Satsang literally means abidance in the Truth/Being, or in the company of Truth/Being. However, in Sant mat it is used to refer to one who has received formal initiation."

New readers here is the official website of rssb or sant mat please read and verify for yourself what Satsang has been defined as in Sant Mat:
http://www.rssb.org/

This should be more than enough to demonstrate that Tao and bunch of others who post BS on this blog ----LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETH and that's waht they post here.

[Brian]

Paul, if this blog is such a complete waste of time (and I'm certainly not going to disagree with that--I just enjoy being wasteful with time), why have you put so much time into it?

It sounds to me like you aren't familiar with, or comfortable with, a setting where someone (like me) says whatever he or she feels like, and then other people (like Tao, Edward, and other commenters) say whatever they like.

Many of us here have loads of experience with RSSB and other spiritual practices. Others, not. Doesn't matter. We're all on the same wavelength: cluelessness, to one degree or another (my clueless temperature is red hot; I can't speak for others' thermometer reading).

Regarding being bored with life, I'm anything but. And part of what keeps each day new and interesting is being able to share ideas, and receive ideas, via my blogs. Guess it isn't your cup of tea. Just understand that there are different beverages for different folks.

[xexon]

I do not involve myself in the office politics of any path. Whatever discord exists among members is of no importance to me.

We are cautioned not to discuss certain elements among fellow devotees for this very reason.

Each person will have a different experience on the path. And the discussion thereof should take place only between the master and the disciple.

It concerns noone else.

x

[sapient]

Paul, I really enjoyed your post.

You are contradicting your own path. what happened to all the statements made by your Guru (I heard Babaji saying in so many satsangs).."Question me, Doubt me..how do you I am not fraud..this is not the only path etc etc". Why are you coming in others way of finding the truth. If you have found your truth, aren't you supposed to keep quiet and keep the experience to your self :). If you really think you know the truth, it should have made you humble, egoless and satisfied (according to RSSB teachings) and you will not be getting frustrated after reading all the comments made by Tau, TB, Sita, Edward, Manjit and all others.

Why are you so concerned that the new readers will get disillusioned by reading this blog? Even if they will, don't your teaching say that every disciple has its own destiny and your Babji will take care of it. Oh no... Are you trying to say that you dont't have trust in your Guru that he will take care of seekers or disciples. If you are contradicting the teaching of your own sect, then why are you concerned, what others are saying...

Are you scared that 'new readers' might follow some other path and not yours.

[Edward]

OOOK!

[Paul]

Sapient - I am not at all frustrated by reading comments of commentators. I was just trying to call a spade a spade. People always try to come up with their own definitions of certain terms and distort the meaning and definitions to connote what suits them in this case distortion of maening of Satsang by Tao.

Yes, I agree that according to RSSb teachings I am supposed to keep quiet and keep the experience to myself and be humble, egoless and satisfied, which I am but that does not mean that I am going to allow people to engrave their foot print on my back! You need certain amoount of ego to function in this world otherwise people will be running all over you. If someone attacks to hit you, you should not be so humble to allow that to happen. Your little ego should stand up in self-defense. You certainly have a name and a bank account in your name. You can's survive here if did away with your ego 100%.

Also, 'new readers' are free to follow any other path, who cares, it is their own independent choice and like other commentators on this blog, I am also providing my opinions in my own way and as Brian said which I am sure you'll enjoy to read, "if it isn't your cup of tea. Just understand that there are different beverages for different folks."

[Edward]

If you have read any posts previous to the last month or so, you would see that your impression is, well, whack.

I completely agree with you on the issue of ego. Ego gets a bad rap for just doing its job, like a gall bladder.

That said, chill out. Look back over the months and you will see that many people who post to this site are emphatic from time to time, that there are no teams of avenging... what? animals?... and EVERYBODY complains about being misunderstood.

If I had a nickel for everytime someone called me a dog/monkey, I'd start my own zodiac.

[tao]

Paul,

First off, I would like to clarify a typing error. You have misinterpreted a portion of one of my previous comments. You have apparently done that, due in part to a minor typo.

Here below under "Incorrect:" is what I had previously written, and then below that under "Corrected:" is shown the correct statement as it was intended and should have been written:

Incorrect: "Satsang literally means abidance in the Truth/Being, or in the company of Truth/Being. However, in Sant mat it is used to refer to one who has received formal initiation."

Corrected: "Satsang literally means abidance in the Truth/Being, or in the company of Truth/Being. However, in Sant mat the term "satsangi" is used to refer to one who has received formal initiation."

So please note that first I defined the literal meaning of the term "Satsang", and then secondly I described the common use meaning of the term "satsangi" as it is generally used in Sant mat and especially in the parlance of the RS sect.

Now on to the remainder of your comment:

The meaning of "satsang" as it is briefly mentioned on the RSSB website [ http://www.rssb.org/ ] is as follows:

Quote: " ‘satsang’ describes a group that seeks truth. "

There is a slight difference in meaning between that and the literal Sanskrit definition that I had given previously. But the general idea is the same. The only difference is that RS uses the word "group" and the word "seeks".

The literal meaning of the sanskrit term "satsang" does NOT at all translate as, or into the words "group" or "seeks".

The term "satsang" is composed of two separate sanskrit terms: SAT, and SANG(a).

Sat simply means Being/Existence/Truth.

Sang specifically means "abidance in", "to abide in", or more commonly "to be in the company of". When placed together it simply means "abidance in truth/being", or "in the company of truth/being". It does NOT refer either to a "group" or to "seeks".

So it really matters very little how the RSSB defines and adapts the term in their own peculiar way. The way they have defined it is not at all precise. In fact, the RSSB definition is considerably more superficial and dualistic than the actual literal sanskrit meaning. I feel that the reason that they do that is to co-opt the term and then re-apply it to defining their particular group. But RSSB does not have any monopoly or claim on the term "satsang". It has been around for as long as the sankrit language has been around. The impoper RSSB definition of the term "satsang" is simply an adaptation that they have employed for their own purposes and agenda.

Paul also wrote: "This should be more than enough to demonstrate that Tao and bunch of others who post BS on this blog ----LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETH and that's waht they post here."

In this comment, you have shown and demonstrated exactly what YOU are up to. You call myself and others liars, yet you you have nothing to back up that allegation other than a reference to the very shallow RSSB webpage which proves nothing. Even the RSSB definition of "satsang" is rather imprecise and generally off the mark.

This and all your other posts/comments here add up to one thing: You are nothing but a shill for RSSB. You are here only to defend and push Santmat/RS dogma. You are clearly not participating in this forum for the purpose of engaging in any intelligent discussion, nor are you at all open to learning anything from others who have their own valid perspectives and insights.

People like you really disgust me. I am serious. It's guys like you that are the fanatics, the religious nuts, the otherwise weak-minded and cowardly bastards that want to shove their rigid dogma and twisted little cult beliefs into everyone elses faces.

In a word, you suck. You suck on the RSSB tit, an you suck up to the RS guru-cult "master" myth, and you also suck because you come here and falsely call other people liars, when in fact it is actually you who are the one who is twisting and distorting and misrepresenting the views and the words and the meanings of others in the forum.

You are nothing but an obvious shill for Sant mat dogma, and an RSSB guru-cult goon. Thats right, GOON. It's so totally obvious to the rest of us who have enough spiritual maturity to know better.

Everything you have here said up to this point only reveals that you are not at all here with an open-mind or with a "Churchless" attitude. You are only here to post more and more of your typical Santmat/RS believer propaganda.

So what's the point dude? You seem to think that perhaps some of those who come to this forum and who are more unfamiliar with Sant mat, are going to get the wrong impression, and that you have to somehow try to prevent that. But all you are really doing is revealing just how biased and narrow-minded and controlling and dogmatic both you and the RS guru-cult really is.

If you want to follow RS and practice Sant mat, then go do that. No one is stopping you. But don't come here and twist the truth with your BS, and call other people liars who have had many decades of experience and knowledge of Sant mat and RS from the inside out.

In fact, your comments only go to show just how very weak and screwed-up typical RS guru-cult fanatics like yourself and others like you really are underneath it all.

[tao]

Paul,

In another comment you wrote:

"People always try to come up with their own definitions of certain terms and distort the meaning and definitions to connote what suits them in this case distortion of maening of Satsang by Tao."

Again you are revealing your own distortion and misreprentation and lack of knowledge. The meaning of the term "satsang" that I gave previously is the literal sanskrit meaning. The RSSB version is an imprecise adaptation. It is not true to the actual translation. Therefore, your unfounded allegations are clearly wrong again, and they only go to show what I can only say is an ignorant fool you really are in this over-all matter. Imo, you are clearly nothing but a blind follower, and moreover an obvious shill and propagandist for the RSSB guru-cult.

Paul then wrote: "...I am supposed to keep quiet and keep the experience to myself and be humble, egoless and satisfied, which I am but that does not mean that I am going to allow people to engrave their foot print on my back!"

I think you have some sort of mental or emotional identification problem. No one is "engrave(ing) their foot print" on your back. Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions about Sant mat etc. This is an open forum. If you don't agree with them, then either accept that or go somehwere else where people do agree with you.

Paul wrote: "You need certain amoount of ego to function in this world otherwise people will be running all over you."

That notion is nothing more than a manifestation or result of spiritual nescience, of ignorance. It is the false logic of the ego itself.

Paul wrote: "If someone attacks to hit you, you should not be so humble to allow that to happen."

No one here is specifically attacking or hitting you. The criticisms are leveled at Sant mat dogma and RS cultism.

Paul wrote: "Your little ego should stand up in self-defense."

That mood of defensiveness is precisely the illusion of false-ego.

Paul wrote: "You can't survive here if did away with your ego 100%.

Again, that is maya which stems directly from the nescience of the illusion of false-ego, or ahamkara.

Paul wrote: "...and like other commentators on this blog, I am also providing my opinions in my own way..."

No doubt you are entitled to your personal opinions, but your opinions are clearly only derived from blind adherence to standard RS dogma which is nothing new to this forum. But then on the other hand, you apparently know nothing beyond that same dogma, and yet you blindly refuse to consider, let alone comprehend, the views and valid conclusions of others regarding various issues within Sant mat and the RS cult.

[tao]

Paul,

And let me take a few more punches at you...

You wrote: "Tao is hopping on one leg and has lost his/her way home. Brian, the boss of them all is busy writing another post for tomorrow and TB preparing for another confusing intellectual jargon..."

I don't do "hopping", and I am already always at home. Your incredibly lame attempt at humor is but an evasise ploy. TB is clearly not at all confused... but you are worse than confused, you are downright ignorant and shallow.

Paul wrote: "First the boss, Brian, comes up with his day's story or whine."

And btw, you are amoron.

Paul wrote: "TB jumps in with long, lengthy, wordy, and confusing BS..."

Yes, this confirms that you are definitely a moron.

Paul wrote: "...and then be sure that Tao will then come in as the big body guard for all of them to take everything "against" sentence by sentence..."

Yes, I just love to tear your moronic cult-goon blather to shreads.

Paul wrote: "Sometimes I also feel TB, Edward, and Tao are paid assistants or puppets of Brian..."

Well if we are, we sure ain't getting paid.

Paul wrote: "...Brian who may still be utterly confused in spite of writing a book..."

But how would a moron like you be able to tell?

Paul wrote: "...and sometimes he'll come with his whines to establish himself as a "hero" or "Guru" of the disguised, confused, lame and lost."

If you think Brian is a Guru, and everyone else is "lost", then you've really got a mental problem that requires therapy.

Paul wrote: "In a nutshell this blog is a complete waste of time and a big time baloony!"

Then you must be pretty damn stupid for wasting your time here.

Paul wrote: "This seems like old boys club of old retirees who are bored with life and have nothing meaningful to look forward to and are probably very rich and have a lot of time to spread thier own confusion and whine."

Well I am in real good shape for my 60 years, am retired, and I feel pretty darn rich... but I sure am not bored, not confused, not lacking in a meaningful life, and don't need to whine like you do.

Paul wrote: So new readers - one word of caution - stay away from the fire ... stay away from this BS blog ... otherwise you also run the risk of losing your sanity..."

Oh, worried about the new readers are you? That's a hoot!

Lost your sanity have you? Well maybe you shouldn't venture into the kitchen if you can't take the heat.

I would encourage you to not make yourself into such a laughing stock.

[Nikhilesh]

Dear T.B,

Before enlightenment : Gamble
After enlightenment : Gamble??

Please clarify as i have never heard of a self realised gambler or murderer, or those continued being the same after "realisation".
I think a murderer is way too lost in the divine play.

And i find this blog highly informative & helpful to me ( esp. in going beyond the comfortable religion of personal God)

[Tucson Bob]

Nikhilesh,

You wrote:
"Before enlightenment : Gamble
After enlightenment : Gamble??"

Yes. Drop the concept that so-called enlightenment results in a conversion to Mother Teresa-like behavior, or freedom from bad moods, anger, and lack of farting. But you misunderstand the "chop wood, carry water" thing. It simply means that to one who understands, everything is as it is.

You said:
"Please clarify as i have never heard of a self realised gambler or murderer, or those continued being the same after "realisation".
I think a murderer is way too lost in the divine play."

You missed the point. Absolute consciousness/awareness is present regardless of appearances, whether they are heaven-like or hellish. This rendition of a poem was posted by Brian, I think, awile ago:

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin,
Who made the sharks, He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
AMEN.

Monty Python

You said: "And i find this blog highly informative & helpful to me ( esp. in going beyond the comfortable religion of personal God)"

Yes, you are on the right track. No personal God. "He" will never be found. What is absolute is non-objective.

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Tucson Bob,

Thanks for the content of your June 06, 2007, 12:41 P.M. reply to Xexon and Paul. This - which seems to be "I" - "believes" that "your" words/assertions have more validity than just being "beliefs." "I" reiterate "my" respect for "your" assertions/contentions/statements. Thanks again.

Robert Paul Howard

[Tucson Bob]

RPH,
And thanks to you. It seems you are beginning to look in the "right" direction which is, of course, no direction at all.

[OshoRobbins]

The fist part is a reply to Tucson Bob to his May 12 posting. I only just read this today. Sorry I am not all-knowing.
Tucson wrote that is the teachings were true, why would Gurinder need to change them?
This is my point precisely.
NO TEACHINGS ARE EVER TRUE – they are just a way of trying to explain that which can never be explained. What do I mean by this?
Truth is not a convenient theory. It is a realisation – no teachings can get you there. Sant mat gives you this ILLUSION that if you meditate – you will ARRIVE!

I say you will never arrive by any meditation – because you have never left. There is no journey except to open your eyes.

Radha Soami has become a religion – people follow it blindly as if it was the only truth. They get fanatical about it.

If you want to know what I am talking about – go to facebook.com and search for “radha” – you will find the UK group with just over 100 members. Read some of the comments. I have posted quite a few there and people get sooo offended.
This next part is in reply to chris may29.
Chris wrote: “The words spoken by these so-called God-Men are very profound. You have to wonder sometimes. How can they speak in such a profound way?”

Well – I can speak profoundly at times. Poets also speak profoundly – are they God-men?

Personally I don’t find sant mat profound anymore. I used to at one time – I guess I just grew up.

You said: “Maybe the Myth is necessary for the Myth to return Home and become the Reality.”

Essentially the whole spiritual journey is a myth created by the disciple. The disciple SEEKS the master – he wants someone to LEAN on – a father figure. The journey continues until the disciple is strong enough to go beyond the need to have a master to lean on. When you SEE the truth – you don’t need a master anymore. The Buddha said “There is NO external saviour – not even me.”

In response to paul: June6 11.11am
You say that one can be a true disciple even without initiation.
This is one of those things that the current Master Gurinder has changed. He says “initiation is nothing more than a projection of your desire” and “nobody gives initiation and nobody received it”.
I am of the firm belief that 99.9% of the disciples listening to his satsang have no frigging idea what he is saying. He constantly contradicts himself and is having great fun saying anything he wants. – nothing is recorded. Answering questions is easy because there are no examiners – any answer he gives is correct. Who is going to challenge him?
Traditional sant mat is clear – NO INITIATION – NO PATH. Initiation is ESSENTIAL. If you are not initiated – then you are not a disciple. So sorry, xexon – you cannot be a RS yogi unless you are initiated and meditate on the five magical names for many years and meet the radiant form who will take you all the way to Sach khand. You don’t qualify as a true saint unless you meet Sat Purush and have tea in his house (or coffee if he doesn’t drink tea).
What I am saying is that INITIATION is one of the essentials in traditional sant mat (even Gurinders sant mat – but he has just de-emphasized it. Only God knows why – and He’s not telling.

[OshoRobbins]

IS INITIATION REQUIRED TO BE A SATSANGI?
Paul wrote: " I have heard Baba ji time and again in his discources that one does not become satsangi by mere initiation, however on the other hand one may be a satsangi even without initiation."

This is an perfect example of the way GSD has changed his gandfather's traditional sant mat. Can you just imagine if J Johnson was alive and this statement was made? He would tell you in no uncertain terms that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Let's keep this simple. There are TWO parts to sant mat. (1) The theory (2) The reality.

(1) above is pretty simple to explain. You can refer to books and satsamgs from the past. Every week hundreds of unpaid preachers of RS give talks on this all over the world.
(2) The reality. This is the experience, the awakening, that state of ONENESS - or metaphorically speaking arriving at Sach Khand.

Now here is the problem: GSD has changed (1) above. There is no doubt about it at all. His statement about initiation is just ONE of the changes he has made. Another one is that he has CHANGED the goal into one of REALISING the lord. Another change is about meditation. He says "meditate but don't count. Leave the results in His hand."
What GSD is really doing is changing the goal post. This is the path of surrender or non-doing. In sant mat it is known as a neh-karmi (someone who is not bound by karma). He acts - but is not concerned with results.

Now all these changes are in line with the major assertion I make about the new RS. The new RS is about ENLIGHTENMENT - not about arriving in Sach Khand.

Now - here is the strange thing about all this: Nobody has even noticed. I have mentioned it to so many people and they think I am crazy. Satsangis generally will not accept that he has changed sant mat.

Many years ago I has a discussion with him on the microphone. I said "My God is here - not somewhere else."
"Mine is also here" He replied.

"But," I replied, "The sant mat books say He is in Sach Khand and you have to leave the body and get there."

"That is just a way of explaining." said BabaJi "All the regions are just levels of consciousness - not literal. In fact you should burn all the books."

All this is in line with enlightenment teachings. The truth is there are NO REGIONS - NO lords of each region - No Sach Khand - No Sat Purush waiting for us to arrive.

All of these are CONCEPTS that we have created in our mind. Sach Khand really refers to a state of nothingness - the absence of all separate things - no time, no space - no thing. Just nothing. Kind of hard to grasp - but you're not meant to grasp it - there is no-thing there to grasp. And there is no "there".

Babaji hovers around these subjects in his satsangs - at the moment RS is a halfway house between the old and the new teachings.

That is why he appears to be so intriguing - He has changed the teachings and says whatever comes to mind.

Once when he was having a discussion with me on the microphine He said "If you were God-realised - you would not be here in the body." I said that the reason to remain is to help and teach others (even though in reality there are no 'others'). If everyone who was enlightened died - who would help others?
His response: "They don't need any help - they can just enlighten themselves."

Now this goes against the whole teachings of needing a master. Yet nobody noticed what He had just said. He can say anything - nobody listens anyway.

People are confused because GSD has changed the goalpost. RS is now about REALISATION.

I have created a number of groups about all these controversies in facebook.com
The new sant mat versus the old etc. I would welcome the comments from the people on this blog.

I used to be a RS speaker - but I was really teaching enlightenment - nobody really noticed this. I was taken off the list by the powers that be - because they did not like my approach. Not that I care - I just had fun while it lasted. But - the RS organisation is all about control.

What makes it a religion is that there are speakers. Why have speakers? What is the point of giving out theory? Only a realised person can actually help - others can only take us further away from the truth.

"The preachers are just making a noise and the scriptures mis-lead us" - Bulleh Shah

Brian, I have tried to email you - but your email address is not working - can you send me your email to [email protected]

or post it on here.

Thanks.

[OshoRobbins]

to comment on facebook as mentioned in my last posting - please go to facebook.com and register (free).
Then search for "radha" - you will find a number of groups as well as the main UK one with 100 members. I have started the controversial ones - the main one is called Radhasoami UK - just started a month ago. I would appreciate your comments on there - it would get the members to think more for themselves.

[Catherine]

Sounds like Gurinder should also be struck from the list. It all sounds like Guru plus teachings with it's back against the wall.

What would you do to keep your sanity if you were elected and had no power?

The old kings were also considered to have been elected by divine right. Since they, however, did not actually have divine power, they said and did as they pleased- bad decisions were very common. Sant Mat masters hold the power to control destinies simply by moving their heads a little to the left or the right during the initiation ceremonies. Why make the selection, leaving millions of people believing that they are not good enough for the simplest, best, fastest, furthest path.

[Nikhilesh]

Dear T.B. ,
Thanks for your response.
I stand clarified. ( at least a lil' bit)
If I'm not wrong, is realisation much similar to a lightning strike?
And I love the poem & will try to remember it when something annoys me.

[Tucson Bob]

Nikhilesh,
Sometimes I speak with authority and confidence but really I claim no special knowledge in these matters. I'm just another voice on the blog, just another slob on the bus. But maybe it's something like this:

Don't look for a lightening strike or a giddy moment of exhaltation as your individuality disappears into an infinite field of undifferentiated white light where all is known in an instant, where you go around in bliss, although this may occur. Know these are just states, passing phenomena. There is just a seeing of how things are, as they are, as they already were all along. Perfectly ordinary. There may be an 'ah hah!' and some release of tension which feels good sort of like a crick in the neck that subsides (except it's in the mind), or it may come gradually as understanding deepens and is no singular event at all. Life goes on, unknown, mysterious, fascinating, frightening, delightful, painful, a magical mystery tour where you see your face everywhere. You still do stupid stuff and realize you know enough but really nothing at all.

Now I've got to go out and clear out some pack rat nests and maybe give one of the little fellows a wink.

[Brian]

Osho, good comments. Here are some links to the Facebook British Radha Soami site you mentioned. "Radha" didn't get me there; had to use "Radha Soami."

All results:
http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=radha+soami&n=-1&k=40000010

The group Osho spoke of (I think):
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2339179938

Discussions of above group:
http://www.facebook.com/board.php?uid=2339179938

Interesting post by Osho on oneness and nothingness:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2339179938&topic=2728

"Wall posts" (whatever they are), some of which mention me, so naturally I found them interesting also:
http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=2339179938

[OshoRobbins]

Thanks Brian for the links. Send me an email sometime - I would love to have a chat with you. We have lots in common.

Tucson - you said you were just another slob on the bus.

I remember hearing this song from a film - i think it was vanilla sky. Ton cruise plays the main character and I think it was him singing it. He was drunk in the film and singing this song:-

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us?
Trying to find his way back home...

I have been on the RS journey my whole life. My father joined RS when I was 3 years old. I used to take the spiritual link magazines to school. I really felt special - I was the only one who was priveliged to know the truth. The master was God - no question about it. When I got older RS would not initiate me because I was too young. I followed another guru at the age of 18. A year later I get initiated by Thakar Singh, then Darshan Singh and by then I was old enough, so I took Charan's helping too. I was collecting initiations. I used to meditate and get results. I followed this for many years.
Then in 1999 my wife left me and took a good chunk of money. I was devastated and suicidal and began to question everything including my faith. I was lost for the first time in my life. My safety net had been taken away - and I was afraid. I went through the dark night of the soul. I went to a teacher called Mikaire (no longer teaching) and in just 5 full days of an intensive session - he took me to a totally different level of truth. It was all about being real and facing what is real. The opposite of what RS had been for me.

I realised for the first time the true meaning of satsang. The energy of being with those who are hungry for truth creates the atmosphere for truth to manifest. This is true satsang - not some speaker giving a prepared talk about some nice threories.

No rituals; no formalities; no rules;

[Tucson Bob]

Osho,
Joan Osbourne did the song "What if God Was One of Us" back in the 90's. It was a hit. I always liked it.

I was initiated by Charan in 1970 and by Thakar later on just for kicks. Now, it's hard to believe I ever bought into that stuff.

[OshoRobbins]

Thanks tucson
I will look up the whole song.
I met most of Kirpal's successors and was initiated by two of them (just for kicks).
At the time I just wanetd to get the
radiant form so that I could have a chat
with 'it' whenever I was stuck as to what to do.
I remember asking Darshan how can there ever
be false successors - surely the inner radiant form tells them "hey dude - stop fooling around - you're not the successor"
He said that they were not in touch with the radiant form.
What I did not realise at the time is that you can convince yourself of anything - you can have any vision - and you think it is all real.
I remember someone telling thakar in satsang (sawan ashram) that she hears the bagpipes sound. Thakar said that her soul is reaching sach khand and she was so happy.
I said "how can she reach sach khand - when she has not even left the body and seen the radiant form?"
"That is not necessary" said thakar. I left there thinking what a load of bull. No wonder they think they have arrived at sach khand - they make it up as they go along. And these poor fools believe everything he says. I left before all the publicity about the sex scandal. I met thakar once after that when he came to london and I asked him about teh scandal. He said "mind your own business". He knew me personally - because when I follow a path I make sure I am in the firing line.
Of course at the time I was a proper sant mat follower. I did however have my suspicions because something wasn't making any sense. So many successors - kirpal leaving the dera - I was confused. At the time the teachings were about traversing the regions - not realisation of truth.

[Tucson Bob]

I saw a blue light when I was initiated by Thakar, which I was very pleased about at the time since there had been a paucity of inner experiences in meditation up to that point. Now, I have to admit it was probably a kind of migraine brought on by straining so hard at the eye center, but hey, it was inside my head and it was blue! I thought, "Wow, now I'm really getting somewhere." After all, up to that point my main "inner" experience with Charan's meditation was a very subtle tinkling noise somewhat like wind chimes during an extensive meditation session while living in the California desert. In fact, it was so subtle that it may have been a product of wishful thinking, imagination, or simply tinnitus. All of my significant "spiritual events" have occured independent of any Sant Mat meditation, or for that matter, any sort of organized self-improvement/meditation/spiritual/yoga/chanting/etc. activity. For example, while running on the beach not looking for anything.

[tao]

Osho,
Yours was an interesting path of growth. Beautiful. Good for you.

Tuscon Bob,
I was initiated by Charan in the latter 70s, stayed for months at the Dera several times, and like you, I checked out Thakur and I even briefly traveled with him around India when his mission was just barely beginning and still very small. And like you say, it is really hard as well to believe that I ever got involved in any of that stuff, especially in light of where I was at and coming from spiritually during the 60s and earlier 70s.

Getting involved in RS was like getting diverted or wandering into a spiritual cul-de-sac. And after a few years of checking it out very thoroughly, it was obviously and naturally time for me to move on. And I haven't looked back.

[Impressionist]

Hi guys
I honestly fail to understand what the debate is all about. The debate is more unnecessary on the part of initiates of the Master. We have religions, creeds, philosophies; all trying to influence us in one way or the other. What I suggest to the ones who believe in Him (GSD); including me; and the ones who do not believe in him; is TO DO SOMETHING! For the followers; its mediatation; for the others, its continuation of the search if they indeed are searching for anything. And my personal belief is that; the followers of the faith like me only have a intellectual belief on the faith and the Master. The moment they experience what the path is and what actually is the Master, they won’t even try to have arguments with others; atleast I won’t. Imagine guys, what are we trying to do. For instance, I, with only a semblance of faith in the Master; terribly struggling in fighting my mind and in meditation, am trying to fight a “case” for my Master!!!

With regard to objective analysis analysis of and opinion on the path; I would say that the one who created us (God) must have made sure that there are things that are and will be beyond our understanding. Faith starts where intellect ends. Don’t mix the two in entirety. The more desperate we as human being are to find that bigger truth; the more inclined we are to believe in different paths. I for one, feel extremely fortunate that this was the path I followed, otherwise I would have got entangled in misleading ones.

From an intellectual point of view, I’ve been interested in the bigger questions in life; and accordingly have sought answers through various means; literature; philosophy; religion. Ironically I found literature and philosophy more honest in their attempts to solve the big questions in life than religion!! This despite the fact that more often than not literature and philosophy have raised more questions than providing answers.

We’ve completely screwed up ourselves with religions; God must be utterly disappointed with us humans. Anyways, I find myself so fortunate when I realize what people like Dostoevsky, Kafka, Tolstoy, Thoreau and so many others went through because they couldn’t ignore the bigger questions about life and existence and more frustatingly could not find right answers to the same.
For the followers of the Master; I would suggest that they once read Tolstoy’s autobiographical writing “A Confession”. Then we’ll probably realize that how fortunate and blessed we are…
Everything else doesn’t matter; peoples’ opinions on Master, on us, how our lives take shape etc etc.
There is so much bliss even in the assurance that Master has taken our responsibility, and he looks over us and will take care of us until he takes back home.

: ) uummmmm feels good

[OshoRobbins]

Impressionist - well written. I have been there and I can relate to what you are saying. However, when you wake up and come out of your belief system - you will realize that your comfort is ungrounded. You are not saved. The master will not look after you. You say "there is so much bliss in the assurance that the master has taken our responsibility and will take care of us."
When does master say that? I mean have you ever listen to what he actually says - as opposed to what you think he said or what you hope he said.
The Buddha said "There is no external Saviour - not even me." Your master says the same thing - if you will but listen.

GSD says "I will not come at the time of your death."
Do you know why not? Because there is no-one there to come. There is only one - so who is going to come?
But - you say - he does come and I have heard accounts of him coming. If you believe - then you will create the vision and you will think he has come. What we believe - we create - then we think it is real. It is not real - it is out own creation - just like we create our own dreams - but they appear to be really happening

[OshoRobbins]

Impressionist,
I have to say I admire your attitude. You say the followers only have intellectual faith - you are absolutely right - and it takes a lot of courage to face that truth. And once you face it - the way forward opens up.

Faith is NOT the way forward. When you STOP believing - then you will see clearly for the first time - but it is not comfortable because you will not like what you see. You will have to face that you do NOT know and you are not on the 'right' path.
Everyone thinks they are lucky to be on the real path. I did for most of my life. Until one day I realised that I am just kidding myself - just the same as everyone else.

Now - I have stopped kidding - and I have no faith in anyone or anything - but I have become more human - more real. I am no longer trying to be a good person or trying to please anyone. I am free to be me - exactly as I am. There is nothing wrong - nothing to change - nothing to correct. I am perfect just as I am. That does not mean that I don't grow - I do - but there is nothing lacking - hence I am not trying to achieve anything. There is no longer a struggle - life is a game.

This is the opposite of everything we are taught since childhood. We are told that we need to change, to be different. We enter relationships and out partner wants us to change. The guru wants us to meditate or to become worth. It is all nonsense. There is nothing wrong in the first place. We are who we are.

[sapient]

OshoRobbins,
Thanks for your last post. I just loved it and it took me out of so many guilts.

I live in a land where you are a good spouse, a good parent,good kid or even a good human being as long as you are following certain beliefs. If for some reasons you are not what the beliefs are, you are guilty.

Reiterating it for myself: "I am free to be me, exactly as I am. There is nothing wrong, nothing to change, nothing to correct. I am perfect just as I am. Human, Real!!

Thanks again.

[OshoRobbins]

Sapient,
This is the greatest trap of life. Since childhood we have been programmed to be better, faster, nicer, politer, obedienter. In fact anything other than who we are. School does the same "You need to try a lot harder!" You get married and your spouse says the same "If you love me - then change yourself and becomes like this - for me. Otherwise you don't really love me and I am leaving!"
And you think "oh my God I better change before she leaves!"
Then you arrive at sant mat and you get even more of the same. "You are stuck in karma. You are in deep s**t. You will have to meditate really hard if you want to be saved. And follow all these moral codes because you have so many bad thoughts - lust anger greed attachment pride."

You take a close look and they are right! You do have all these "bad" thoughts. No wonder they are not letting you into Sach Khand! You're lucky you don't get thrown straight into hell. Just be grateful to the master because it is only his grace that will save you. Praise be to the master."

What a trap! And what nonsense - but we have believed it and it has become the truth for us. It has been said that a lie repeated often appears to be the truth.

The truth is that lust anger greed attachment pride are all perfect. There is nothing wrong. If I see a beautiful woman walking down the street - I don't avoid looking. I enjoy the sight. Yes - I know I should not be admitting this in public - it is really bad for my image - but I will enjoy everything in life. And something amazing happens - it no longer has a hold on me because I am not avoiding. It was the avoiding that was making me a hypocrite. As soon as I stop avoiding - I am allowing myself to be me and there is nothing wrong. Anger is a natural consequence of the frustration of my desire. If I am angry - I simply allow it to be expressed. In fact it never even gets that far because I express it much earlier. True anger will only erupt when you live a supressed life - and you cannot avoid it if you constantly have rules on how to be a "good" person. Then you will feel really guilty for being angry! And you will have to meditate a lot harder! Greed cannot be avoided while you are a human being and have certain needs. I say greed is good - all progress comes from greed. I could go on - attachment and pride. They are all perfect. If you avoid them then you will be suppressed and become a hypocrite and you are going to need lots of meditation and lots of grace to remove the guilt!
In my opinion, children are the greatest teachers! A two year old child teaches us so much. If we become as the two year old - we have already entered the kingdom of God. If he falls - nothing is wrong - he simply get up and carries on. No need for positive or negative thinking. If he drops something or spills it - wow - how interesting was that - I'll have to try that again sometime.
This is how life is meant to be - the state of joy - no rules - no guilt - no effort.
"Good" does not exist - it is made up - a concept in your mind. Let is go and you are free.

[Impressionist]

Osho, well written ; ), with regard to your question whether GSD has ever said that “he’ll take care of us”, let me tell you what he said in his discourse in March in Bombay: He said and I quote “the moment you get initiated by the Master, the Master takes full responsibility of you”. I got initiated in Feb end. And I remember the circumstances in which that happened. I’ve been attending discourses since the time of Charan Singh (1988 onwards I guess); I was around 8 years old then. At NO POINT in my life after that I got influenced by what other followers thought of the path and the way they believed in it blindly. When they said that He gives what you ask for vis-à-vis your materialistic and worldly requirements; I said BULLS**T, how can that be? I drew my own conclusions from my intellectual understanding. As I went through life, boarding schools, life at college, life at B School, and now life in corporate world; I got disillusioned with every damn thing in life, wealth, women, relationships, aspirations. All got killed slowly but firmly. With all this happening, obviously I started having those wretched questions in life, about existence and the meaning, if any, of it all. Read all that I thought may give me answers; writers, philosophers who spent whole of their lives trying to decipher answers to these questions. Well, I did learn who all had the questions but couldn’t find the answers. The people who apparently had found the answers were sadly not forthcoming in documenting them in a straightforward manner.
Till around 6 months back, I had decided that I will enjoy life as a normal human for two years and will then try for initiation. But suddenly some incident happened and one day I found myself calling people in RSSB to find out where was the immediate next initiation. By evening I had booked my flight and was off for initiation, without telling anyone close to me where I was going and why. I was literally being pulled… I remember His glance till now. The only eyes that know everything about me; which incidentally is my idea of God. It’s been three and a half months now. And I realize how difficult meditation is. I understand how I have to fight my mind day in a day out. It’s the single most difficult thing in life. I’ll do it nonetheless; not because I have great love for the Master; I hardly have any, but because I don’t have a choice. I have lived every other way in life; and now I’m trying this one.
With regard to your idea of living life the way you are; I completely agree with you. And believe me, my relation is with GSD, and I’m very critical of the followers’ attitudes many a times. I believe that the purpose of the path; FIRST AND FOREMOST; is to make us good human beings. And so many times I find behaviors contrary to this. Sevadars with monstrous egos, people with selfish attitude etc etc. (this is not for all of those but a percentage ; )) So I in my relation with santmat have gone more and more into my shell. This actually helps! I understand the pitfalls of fame and ego, just a waste of time. I compare myself with what I want myself to become and nothing else.
With regard to why I chose this, I have analyzed my options and am living life in a way that minimizes the possibility of shock post death!! I am open to every possibility; God may be there; God may be one of us as John Osbourne said; GSD may be God, GSD may be human, Life may be a big joke etc etc.
I’m below thirty; life will give more experiences as it unfolds, though my apprehension is that I’m not wrong in what I am doing. I do have my doubts; definitely I do have; but then this is because I have literally No experience and No love.
I NEVER have a problem with people who disagree with me on GSD or on the path. My idea is that a person who does not follow the path but is a good human being is far far better than the one who apparently “follows” the path or believes in the path but could not become a good human being.

[Impressionist]

I followed a bit on your profile and went through your website as well. I understand your posts better now; in perspective : ). I hope you are getting business through exploitation of ignorance which you do as I can see from your website. If I had encountered your website five-ten years back when I didn’t have a clue about santmat, but had an idea about life nonetheless; even then I would have laughed out loud on your quick fixes. No, not that they are worthless; they were and worthless for me though; they will be useful to people who really are clueless about everything. And even to them this isn’t a solution, rather a distraction. Its like distracting someone when he is in physical pain and telling him that “Look I told you, there’s no malady!”!!!
I’m not criticizing you and your activities; not in least; rather I admire your business model. Even though your business model’s popularity is a result and bacause of criticism of santmat.
I want to ask you something, I may be wrong in my assumptions but still, when you are alone with yourself, and honest in your appraisal of what you are doing or trying to do, what do you feel? You can fool everyone around here and many in the world, but how are you able to fool yourself!!!
I am perplexed, and intrigued by the authority with which you show ways to enlightenment on your website. Come on now, don’t waste your life. Be a motivational speaker, teacher in a general sense – cut the spirituality crap from it.
NO OFFENCE INTEDED BRO; we are all the same; human. ; ). My apologies in advance.

[Impressionist]

Oops, forgot to mention, the last post was intended for "OshoRobins"!!!

[OshoRobbins]

Impressionist,
well written - and I welcome all your criticisms. They are all well founded - I love them. You have a genuine concern and I will give you my honest answer. I am not in the slightest offended - and you don't need to apologise for anything - your concerns are welcome.
You wrote: "I want to ask you something, I may be wrong in my assumptions but still, when you are alone with yourself, and honest in your appraisal of what you are doing or trying to do, what do you feel? You can fool everyone around here and many in the world, but how are you able to fool yourself!!!"

It is very simple - I am not trying to fool anyone. I want to help people in all areas of their life. My passion is enlightenment but how many people are really seeking enlightenment - or even know what it is? Most people want to be happy and seek it in other ways - so I offer them a pathway to what they seek. Ultimately - they will be disappointed with everything - but not until they first experience it. In RS they say "Don't bring you worldly problems" because it is purely a spiritual platform. However, until your day to day issues are not resolved - there is no real interest in spirituality anyway. I offer both - success in the world and finally - mystical enlightenment. I am not a guru in the traditional sense - because there is no such thing. I help those who are ready to listen. The success/money side of life is just part of living - so we may as well learn the skills - we are going to live anyway. Most people on the spiritual journey are in denial in these areas of their life.

You wrote:
"I am perplexed, and intrigued by the authority with which you show ways to enlightenment on your website. Come on now, don’t waste your life. Be a motivational speaker, teacher in a general sense – cut the spirituality crap from it."

The authority is not mine. Anyone who speaks from his own centre will have authority. Enlightenment is not a theory or a teaching - it is coming back to who you really are - it is a consequence of dropping all the beliefs you have taken on. I am not a motivational speaker - but at the same time - I want to offer a solution to all areas of our life. This part is not enlightenment - but it is still part of life. Why divorce the two areas - I integrate them. That is why I have taken the name Osho Robbins. The wisdom of Osho and the success strategies / NLP of Tony Robbins. The blend of the two means that you can be successful in the world as well as enlightened. One is not against the other. Just because you can see that wealth and success is not going to fulfill you ultimately does not mean that you no longer have to pay the bills.

My ultimate love is truth and enlightenment - but I purposely have not limited myself to that because the other aspects of life are also important. I offer a balance. Also - most people start their journey looking for money, love, happiness, relationships, etc. Only when these do not satisfy them do they seek enlightenment or something similar.

[OshoRobbins]

Impressionist,
I like the way you write - you are sincere in your seeking.
You wrote: " It’s been three and a half months now. And I realize how difficult meditation is. I understand how I have to fight my mind day in a day out. It’s the single most difficult thing in life. I’ll do it nonetheless; not because I have great love for the Master; I hardly have any, but because I don’t have a choice. I have lived every other way in life; and now I’m trying this one."
Impressionist - that is brilliant. You are honest enough to face the truth - that you have no love for the master. I would suggest that nobody does - they are motivated by their own desire.
As a friend - let me ask you a question. What are you really seeking? What are you hoping for? What do you want to attain? What is the purpose? What is the meaning of your life? Nobody will ever find the truth - while they are trying to attain something. WHO is trying to attain? It is the 'separate self' called the ego. All efforts are doomed to failure and it is in the failure that you will finally rest. That resting is what I call meditaiton - the end of all struggle and seeking. Only then do you realise that you have been at home all along. There was no journey to make. You are that which you seek. More accurately - there is no 'you' so who is trying to attain? The 'false' or 'lower' self or the ego which is 'who you think you are'. As soon as you come out of the delusion of being a 'person' trying to get somewhere - you will disappear and only God will remain. Or you could say that you will realise that you ARE the ONE!

[Catherine]

Pleased the idea of fighting the mind has been brought up here. One of the fundamental differences between Sant Mat meditation and Insight/ Buddhist meditation is that in the latter, the practitioner does not engage in a fight, he/she simply observes the mind with all it's arising phenomena, maybe briefly notes the content, accepts that it exists and then let's it go. No suppression, big fight or rejection. Observation of one's own mind's tendencies slowly clears the mind and exposes 'Buddha' nature. An effortless effort.

[LB]

Hi Catherine. I really enjoy your thoughts expressed on this forum. You are just so insightful and FUNNY.

Here is a question for you. Do you know anybody with a "Buddha Mind"? What I find is precept is easier than behaving and conducting oneself in the world with equanimity and loving kindness when taxed with life. Really I do not know one single person I have EVER met who exhibited the Buddha Mind when severely tested. I have read about them, that is one thing, but never actually seen this "Buddha Mind" exhibited.

Thanks LB

[tao]

LB,

You say: "I do not know one single person I have EVER met who exhibited the Buddha Mind." --and-- "I have ... never actually seen this "Buddha Mind" exhibited."

So you have not met any. So what?

How would you know a "Buddha Mind" or not anyway?

How would you know whether one "exhibited the Buddha Mind when severely tested"?

How could you possibly "severly test" for "Buddha Mind"?

If you have "never actually seen this "Buddha Mind" exhibited", then how would you ever be able to tell?

I'm sorry LB, but I just don't think you have any clue whatsoever.... about what "Buddha Mind" is and isn't, or about other folks. You are all talk and no walk.

As it has often been wisely said: "It takes one to know one". And obviously, you admittedly don't "know one".

[LB]

Hi Tao.

Really my question was directed just to Catherine.

But since you offered comment -- well A McLaren goes 300 MPH says one but nobody has seen it that I know of. Heck that would be faster than a top fuel dragster that goes 240 MPH. Ya, but what about that 1800-hp twin-turbo Firebird that blistered the Bonneville Salt Flats in 1987 at 287 MPH that's faster than 240 MPH, shucks. And so it goes. The Buddha Mind blisters the Spiritual Salt Flats, man I'd like to meet the driver and look under the hood, that's all.

[Tucson Bob]

LB,
Sorry, not Catherine either, but I have a couple of relatives with that name. Close enough?
Don't put Buddha Mind on a pedestal. It is no mind at all in the conceptual sense. It is not an object and will not be found as such. It has no attributes, color, shape, or form. It is not even an it. As soon as you think you see it, it's gone, split into subject-object. How can truth see itself? If it did, then there would be two truths, gods, absolutes. You, as an entity, will never see 'it' as an object because 'it' is this which is looking. It is not the entity seeing the thing,it is the seeing of it; it is not the entity hearing the thing, it is the hearing of it; it is not the entity touching the thing, it is the touching of it; and the entity, you, is nothing objective at all except as a concept. Want to see the Buddha Mind in action? Go watch a spider spin its web. A flower bloom. A snake slither.

Everything cognized is just what is called 'mind', and what is called 'mind' is just the cognizing of everything.
Who done it? No Buddha anywhere! So what is there left to write about?

[catherine]

LB- thought 'Buddha nature' was a little cryptic. Tucson Bob has a good answer. Here's my understanding.

Perhaps the most revolutionary approach to wisdom and clarity that I have come across is the Buddhist one.

Usually, the idea is that through studying, through teaching and moulding,through putting into and adding to the mind, through striving towards, through piousness, deep and long reflection and learning, or through life experiences, one can develop wisdom.

In Buddhism, 'this which is looking' (you/ me/ Buddha nature/ pure wisdom)comes to the fore, cleans up or becomes apparent through noting and letting go of the whirling bird's nest of repeated and unnecessary info,graspings,and all that relates to pettiness, angers, desires, greeds- all these nasty littles that hold us firmly in their sweaty dirty harmful paws.

Then nothing replaces them except pure present consciousness. The nothing is Buddha Nature.

Incidentally Buddha nature is not sullied through studying for an engineering exam where useful information is being absorbed. It is sullied through repeated harmful and unnecessary thought. The sitting, standing and walking meditation is a process of slowing down to become present and see the bird's nest for it's muddle.

[Tucson Bob]

Tao,
I just stumbled upon your post above dated June 10. Sounds like we have a lot in common in our journey in this life. Calling RS a "spiritual cul-de-sac" is right on. The warning signs were there, but it was an attractive neighborhood easy to get boxed into. I was presented with other teachings (Vedanta, zen/ch'an Bhuddism, Tao, Ramana Maharshi and others) at the same time, but just didn't have the maturity to fully appreciate how they aligned with insights that occured as a result of involvement with the popular psychotropic substances of the day. The spiritual cosmology of Sant Mat and the perfect Master personal savior were just too seductive to pass up.

[Dennis]

Hey Tucson Blob,
I hope you were'nt injesting any of those popular psychotropic substances while you were on the Path-that could explain why you felt you were on a "spiritual cul-de-sac"!

[Tucson Bob]

Dennis,
I can see how you got that impression from what I wrote. Words are tricky and must be put down with great care in order not to be misunderstood. But no, the substances were ingested prior to committed involvement with Sant Mat.

T Blob

[MARIKA LOVE]

The way the Sant Mat teachings hit me in the beginning was so powerful, I felt I KNEW they were true. I think there are outer physical regions where we experience being, just as we exist now in Pinda. We have a certain awareness, and we are in an actual physical region. If we travel to New York, we all agree that the Statue of Liberty and the Empire State building are there. and the Hudson River. These outer realities are the mileu in which we experience our own state of consciousness.

[Robert Searle]

I notice the writer of the blog article mentions why he, or she needs to be connected to the Shabd. In Sant Mat the Master is said to have reached the Highest Plane, or Highest Spiritual Region. As such the Adept can connect the new Satsangi to the highest, and most subtlest level, or plane of the Shabd. This, it is claimed has a magnetic pull. Thus, the Five Sounds have magnetic pulls emanating directly from the Highest Region. As the Satsangi goes in this special Shabd helps to make upward progress easier, and quicker. Moreover, just concentrating on the Inner Radiant Form of the Master (if experienced) also has a magnetic pull..the magnetic pull of Spiritual Love manifestating ItSelf as Sound ofcourse....and indeed, as Light emanating from the Radiant Form of the Guru, and from the "surroundings" of the Inner Planes.....

[tucson]

I wonder how the Adept connects the satsangi to the highest Shabd. Why is the disciple somehow cut off from this Shabd which is said to penetrate all of creation? If this Shabd does penetrate the entire creation why does the disciple have to be connected to something he/she is already connected to? Or, how is it determined that there isn't a higher Shabd that the Master/Adept doesn't know about. In other words how does anyone know the Master is from the highest region? What if he is a fraud? What if there are higher Masters from even higher regions? I guess you can meditate for 10-20-50 years and see for yourself, but even then maybe you only think what you are seeing is true when actually it isn't. What then? What if you don't see anything conclusive for yourself even after 60 years of meditation for hours every day? What then? Wait for another life? What if there aren't more lives? How do you know there are more lives? This is really a lot to believe in on faith alone and spend your whole life, maybe your only life, chasing after. I guess faith in the reality of this is comforting and worth the gamble to some. I can understand that, but doesn't it seem more likely that it is not true than true? You know, just going with the odds and common sense. I don't know. That's just me speaking from the position of someone starting from scratch in all this. A rank novice. Why should I choose the Master over Jesus? Jesus makes promises too and his followers wouldn't think of following the Master. Plus, Jesus doesn't require special diets and hours of meditation. But what if Jesus turns out not to be what people think he is? What then? What should I believe in? Jihad? 72 virgins? Why? Why not? Oh, heck. I think I'll go for a walk and watch the rabbits and birds. Maybe the answer is there. They could know something we don't.

[june schlebusch]

To all the above bloggers even those from 2007...It seams this discussion just never ends...Is there not out there in this big wide world of ours, that has done a sociologicicall reseach of why so many of us went to the Eastern philosophies in the 60ties...Iv been trapped within this mental conflict since 1960...Jesus or the Guru...It just never ends...Now at age 72 when I think that I have come near end of exhistance I'm going to where I find comfort,and where is that....Its where my heart wants what is to be true...I can not prove anything I know even less but what I would like to believe is that their is A Devine Loving Prescence guiding my life and that one day it will all make sence...I will see my loved ones again, and I'll get a pat on the back with the words "Well done, Good and faithfull servant"...Simple, stupid maybe but to except what the Gurus ofer is for me...To dreadful to conplemplate...So I quess Jesus is for me the answer...I can't go it alone I just don't have that kind a mindset, I'v tried, believe you me, but it just made me suicideall...Blessings to all you dear souls that struggle for answeres.

[Nietzsche]

I think you are now what you are and after your dead you will be the same in different circumstances. Impossible that after dead the master comes and he will take you to a higher consciousness. If that was possible he would take you now. I would not hope on the future or some heaven to do the trick. And that mantra etc does not work either :) Still every moment could be the last one in limited consciousness is my feeling...

[Nietzsche]

I think that if we where to stand and the gates of heaven and the angels would ask us why we did what we did we can only tell that we chose to abandon a path that did not seem to work and that gave us no good feeling anymore and I can justify that decision on the other hand I could not justify an angel that would ask me why did you continue on that path while I gave you so many warnings and nothing was confirming the lies they told you. Perhaps it is more how we handle thing that makes them right or wrong? Don't know feels okay.

[Nietzsche]

O the first time I heard about it I thought it was true too. But hiw do I know if what I read was nit altered by man somehow. What if the first master never wrote that there would allways be a perfect master but perhaps someone put that in to manipulate? People can be so clever lieers. The only thing you can do is to verify the current master and well you know what my opinion on him is and that was verified.
So I am sad the books might not be 100 % true or if they are unaltered than they must be 50% off like any random book.
To be honest they sound to good to be true. Making spiritual progress by stupid meditation that happens to make you a good working force in rural Indie and it happens to be that the rich familly is the familly of superior masters.
But if it is a compositionof true words in a lying fashion than it certainly is the work of shrewed people working on naive Westerns.

[Robert Searle]

Tuscon, raised some very interesting questions which were worth reading. Why should one have to connect to the Shabd when it is already within us? The answer as originally indicated is that there is a special kind of Shabd which has a magnetic pull coming all the way from Sach Khand. This it is claimed can only be had by a Master who may have reached the "Highest" Region.

Personally, I think it is all a question of self-evolution of how, and what happens on the internal stages. Some people may be advanced not to have an outer Master but an inner one instead. Thus, such persons may be able to contact the Shabd to the "Highest" Plane without a physical Teacher. Some may well need an outer Guru who can connect the soul to the "Highest" Shabd, and the "Highest" Plane. Indeed, I have noticed on two, or three occasions in Sant Mat literature that the inner Shabd, or Sound does not necessarily have to be the only means to achieve the "Highest" Plane.

As to whether one will actually reach the "Highest" Plane probably depends on our past karmas, the Will of God, and to what extent we can selflessly, and unconditionally submit lovingly to that Higher Power. In Sant Mat it has even been claimed that even if one has no inner experiences in meditation it does not mean one has not attained the "Highest" Plane. An inner ascent may have happened unawares!!

In a sense, the Soul is already "there". But consciousness from the lower bodies, and lower planes must be withdrawn upwards before It is reunited with its True Self, or Soul in its purest form in Sach Khand.

As to whether we reach the "Highest" Plane, and realize that It is the "Highest" Plane probably depends on the degree of purity one has attained.

There are many other facets to all this which could be considered...but I am pressed for time...