Naturally, it was no contest. There's no way a couple of fundamentalist Christians were going to best the Rational Response Squad on an ABC Nightline face-off over scientific evidence for the existence of God.
(These are the guys who talked me into condemning myself to hell for a free DVD.)
I haven't watched all of the video of the debate, You Tube'd versions of which are available at BSAlert.com. But I've seen enough to agree with the proposition that "the match was a slaughter and Ray and…Kirk [the Christians]...were left bleeding and wounded."
Ray and Kirk weren't supposed to use the Bible to prove that the Bible is true. They claimed they'd provide scientific evidence for the existence of God (the Christian God, I assume).
So I watch the (privately filmed) video of the debate on the Rational Responder web site. And I see one of the true believers, Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, holding up a image of the "Mona Lisa," claiming that wherever there is a painting there must be a painter.
Huh? That's the proof? Dude, that's so lame.
Like Sapient, one of the Rational Responders, said, with a painting you can see the canvas, the paints, the brush strokes. You can also meet painters of paintings, take photographs of them at work, talk with them about their artistry.
The universe exists. Existence exists. This doesn't mean that there was a creator of creation. Or that this Master Painter is a personalized being, rather than a universal power.
Sapient asked what the creator of God is. Good question. If an answer were to be attempted, a follow-up would be forthcoming: What created the creator of God?
I've little doubt that a few decades, or centuries, or millennia from now (sooner the better), debates like this one will be viewed as curious relics from pre-scientific times when humans held exceedingly curious notions about the cosmos.
As Christopher Hitchens puts it in his book, "God is Not Great":
One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody – not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms – had the smallest idea what was going on.
It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance, and other infantile needs).
Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think – though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one – that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.
Until people see the light of reality, instead of the darkness of religion, it's incumbent that those of us on the less shadowy side of the divide challenge those who would keep us mired in superstition, irrationality, and addiction to blind faith.
Courtesy of BSAlert, this YouTube video shows a woman confronting the fundamentalist Christians at the Nightline debate (which was held in a Manhattan Baptist church, not exactly neutral ground).
I love how she refuses to let the believers get away with not answering her question. She notes that they'd just praised how God so wonderfully created the human eye, nose, mouth and such. The woman asks, "What about cancer? How is this part of a perfect creation?"
Excellent question. Which the Christians are utterly unable to answer, except by meandering into some blather about suffering being part of God's plan, and how the Bible tells us that we started off perfect and then fell from grace.
She shakes her head, looks understandably irked, then rises to interrupt the blather and ask her question again. Beautiful. I sorely wish she could be at every press conference President Bush holds. They'd sure be a lot more interesting (and informative) if she was there.
Yes, I watched the Nightline episode that had the highlights of the debate. What I love most about Cameron's and Comfort's painting and camera arguments-from-design, is that they're actually presenting evidence for polytheism. Ever see a painter who didn't have parents, grandparents, ancestors, etc.?? If there's a painter, I know there must be ancestors of the painter. When I see a camera, I know that the camera must have been the product of many hands, (not to mention factories, etc.)
Dumb as a mushroom. Dumb as a couple of suitcases.
Posted by: Todd Chambers | May 24, 2007 at 05:50 AM
Oh boy, one of the channels on cable in my area called the Trinity Broadcast Network consistently airs shows with "The Way of the Master" starring Kirk Cameron. Where did he go wrong? Saved by the Bell, anyone?
Posted by: Ashwin | May 24, 2007 at 04:27 PM
Brian -
I apologize for diverging, but who attended that meeting? Did it contain atheists and Christians alike?
But that woman showed some pizzazz, fo'shizzle.
Posted by: Ashwin | May 24, 2007 at 04:39 PM
Which one is the Red Sox and which one is the Yankees?
Oh wait, one side is Sharks and one is Jets?
Geeks and Freaks?
I can never remember if feed a Christian, starve an atheist. Or feed a Christian TO an atheist.
Posted by: Edward | May 25, 2007 at 04:51 PM
In the beginning of the debate, we were shown a painting and an explanation that there must exist a painter. There were other references as well to material things that would only exist because of an inventor, builder, designer. One most important point was missed here that no one mentioned. The belief in God really only comes from a "BOOK" that we don't even know the author of. We all know throughout history that books come in many forms such as fiction or non-fiction. We don't even know where this book should be referenced in. A writer has the full control to write about anything he choose whether real or unreal. Many travel the world in search of other world views. Have you noticed the "Time-date" the book is in? Even "Revelation" which is set in our future doesn't project how it will really be, only how it was seen in the time it was written. There is no talk in the bible of dinosaurs, the earth not being flat. It was written by what someone or a group of someones knew at the time. If so much is the word of God that transends time, why is all the talk and experience all in one time period? Anyone could have written that book and for any reason or purpose. The reference to pictures and objects is pointless, a book can mean anything and take us on any journey the writer wishes us to go. Maybe this was the writers intention all along. Think about it!
Posted by: Diana Nelson | May 26, 2007 at 01:34 AM
I had one other comment to make about the above segment when there was talk about why there is suffering. In the beginning, "Adam" and "Eve" sinned, therefore their future generations were going to suffer-which actually sounds really wrong to begin with-to blame future generations on something two infants did, which is what they were, they were new to the world and did what any child would do to any parent-misbehave. Anyway, God supposedly wiped out the world and started over with Moses and his Arc, so why when starting a new world would God pass over all past punishments on a new world? Why would he do something like that??? Makes no sense at all. One who starts something over usually starts from scratch with another plan in mind-an improvement on an old way. A better beginning.
Posted by: Diana Nelson | May 26, 2007 at 01:46 AM
Its Noah's arc not Moses'. But that is a really good point. The 2 fundamentalist also forgot the fact that the bible said sin cannot be "inherited", but this is quite a contradicting point in the bible anyways.
Fallen or not, its still not a justification to unleash suffering to the world. Those two can say that because THEY are not the ones who are suffering, its such a irresponsible comment to make on live television. I would love to see them say "thank God for giving me cancer, I so deserve it" when they actually got it. I could more easily imagine them saying "I have been a loyal servant, why me?"
I guess the only way to put an end this is the invention of time machine or at least something which allows us to study the past in every detail (something like the machine in Dejavu maybe?)
We need to punch into their mind the fact that a TRUE loving being we NOT induce suffering under ANY circumstances and there is also no prerequisite to perfect forgiveness.
Posted by: Chiu Kang | May 26, 2007 at 03:12 AM
i'm glad god doesn't exist. now i can take as many drugs as i want.
Louie.
Posted by: Cyfer | May 27, 2007 at 11:52 AM
I am so sad to hear so much hostility towards these Christians. They are reaching out in love, a message that they believe with their whole heart, and their fellow human race has responded with hatred. Most of the comments I read were very petty and childish. Whether we believe in God or not, we will pass before His judgment. I pray that you all will open your heart even just a little bit, to let some light in.
Posted by: Leigh-Ann | May 31, 2007 at 08:09 PM
Leigh-Ann, historically, christians have reached out with intolerance and a sword. When the dialogue is elevated beyond Christians being right, and everyone else being wrong, they will seem much less suspicious.
God's judgement will not come "someday", it is always now.
Posted by: Edward | June 01, 2007 at 05:09 AM
Leigh-Ann,
How do you construe judgement and intolerance towards non-christians as "reaching out in love"?
You wrote: Whether we believe in God or not, we will pass before His judgment."
This statement of yours represents nothing more your own personal "judgment" against those who do not believe, based upon your own rigid belief in "God" and "His judgement". It is absolutely faulty logic.
I hope that YOU will open YOUR HEART and cease your religious narrow-mindedness and self-righteousness.
Posted by: tao | June 01, 2007 at 03:37 PM
Tao,
Actually, I can do NOTHING truly good. I have to count on Jesus. He is righteous for me. And, I really am not narrow-minded. I have a respect for every one. My closest friends do not believe like me. All religions may point to the right way, but Jesus is the way. All religions may point to the truth, but Jesus is the truth. I am not a religious person. Religion Will NOT save me or you. Only a belief and relationship with Jesus who died for me and you will save us. That's true love. But, to even want to be saved, you have to know that you need to be saved. I encourage you to read the New Testament again and call out to God. There is no harm in trying right?
Posted by: Leigh-Ann | June 03, 2007 at 07:09 AM
Leigh-Ann, what is a belief in Jesus who supposedly died for you and will save you,if not a belief in a religious dogma. In fact I would like to point out that such a belief is even opposed to Jesus' teachings who explicitly denies any worship of idols and says that truth and "the kingdom of God" is not found without ( in this case in a mythical saviour who was sent from God in heaven ) but within oneself. How can Jesus be righteous for you? It is an incredibly narrow view on life if you look at it only through the words of scripture. This itself is limiting yourself to one system of thought instead of opening oneself to diversity in life.
Posted by: Heraklit | June 03, 2007 at 07:32 AM
Leigh-Ann,
It appears that you are actually unaware and in denial of the reality of your rigid christian religious belief system and dogma. However, that is not uncommon.
You have written: "I can do NOTHING truly good."
That is a particularly negative view to have of oneself. It is indicative of a feeling of inferiority and a pretense of humility. It is a mindset which you have bought into which is very disempowering. It is truly sad and unfortunate that you, and others like you, have let this wrong idea reduce your self-esteem and self-cnfidence to such a pathetically low level. Your life is meant to be an expression and manifestation of goodness, not the other way around. You've really got it turned around all wrong. You are meant to be a light unto the world, not a void. It is so sad to see people like you lose their soul.
You have written: "I have to count on Jesus."
What Jesus? Where is this supposed Jesus? You are doing nothing more than counting on a figment of your own and others imagination.
You have written: "I really am not narrow-minded."
You may say that, but the rest of your words indicate otherwise.
You have written: "I have a respect for every one."
I disagree. You may think that you do in your imagination, but the evidence indicates otherwise. Let me point out that your previous two statements ("Most of the comments I read were very petty and childish" -and- "Whether we believe in God or not, we will pass before His judgment") DO NOT reflect much respect at all towards the different views and spiritual orientations of others in this forum. This Churchless blog and comment forum is not a Christian believer's forum, and you are not open-minded.
You have written: "All religions may point to the right way, but Jesus is the way. All religions may point to the truth, but Jesus is the truth."
These statements of yours exude an extremely self-righteous "my way is the only way" or "Jesus is the ONLY way" type of mentality. It does NOT show acknowledgement and tolerance towards other spiritual or religious or philosophical persuasions. To say that only one single individual who is merely supposed to have lived and preached 2000 years ago, is the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH and the ONE AND ONLY WAY, is utterly absurd and bereft of all reason and common sense. It is an expression of the utmost stupidity.
You have written: "I am not a religious person."
Thats total BS. Who do you think you are fooling? - You are only fooling yourself. Belief in Jesus is commonly referred to as Christianity, and that is religion, no matter how you cut it.
You have written: "Only a belief and relationship with Jesus who died for me and you will save us."
There you go again with your narrow dogmatic pronouncements. We have all seen many people like you. I just don't see what you think you are going to prove by posting such garbage. You just don't have a clue. You are clearly a brain-washed Jesus cultist. You are nothing more that a parrot of born-again evangelical Christian religious dogma. You are deluded and living in a fantasy, an illusory "relationship with Jesus".
You have written: "That's true love."
According to that statement, I don't think you have even the slightest idea of what the nature of love is.
You have written: "...you have to know that you need to be saved."
And you need to know that you do not know what anyone else needs. Who are you to determine what others need? it is this kind of biased CRAP that is what really turns people off to "Jesus" touting Christians and their ridiculous beliefs.
You have written: "I encourage you to read the New Testament again and call out to God."
I would venture to say that probably everyone else who comments in this forum is quite familiar with The New Testament... and probably far more familiar and knowledgeable of it than you are.
So what are you here for? Are you here just to preach your blind narrow-minded "Jesus Saves" dogma? If you are, then I think you are in the wrong place. I don't think anyone here is interested in being preached to.
Posted by: tao | June 03, 2007 at 03:16 PM
the mystery of life and love
will always haunt the heart
forever inexplicible
infusing faith and art
Posted by: Jay | June 03, 2007 at 11:56 PM
I am not here to preach, although you sound like you would make an excellent preacher. And you're right. You probably do know the New Testament better than me. I don't claim to know the Bible inside out. I speak from a personal experience I had with Jesus that then led to me exploring the Bible. After a life full of bad decisions (I'm sure everyone can relate) I cried out to God. I felt very disgusted with myself, like I was the scum of the world. My soul was in complete agony. Not knowing what else to do I cried out to God asking if He was done with me. And if I was going to Hell. I didn't really expect a response.
Then He came to me. I felt His presence stronger than any other. I truly had the fear of the Lord, for His presence is AWESOME. Until then I was unsure if He existed. He said "you are mine". He covered me with forgiveness. I am brand new. The mistakes I made are erased. The mistakes I am still making are erased. This is why I say, I am righteous through Jesus. Not because of low self esteem, but because of the way He changed me inside out. His love, not condemnation, is what made up my mind.
Everyone has their own story. That was mine. God Bless.
Posted by: Leigh-Ann | June 06, 2007 at 03:47 PM
Leigh-Ann,
You wrote (in quotations):
"I am not here to preach"
Perhaps thats what you think, but it certainly looks like preaching to me.
"I speak from a personal experience I had with Jesus"
That would pnly be a personal subjective experience. Not a reality.
"I truly had the fear of the Lord"
Fear is never the way to God. There is no fear in God, nor should there be any for God.
"He said "you are mine"."
Only in your mind. There is no other. God is not an other. There is no separation.
"I am brand new. The mistakes I made are erased. The mistakes I am still making are erased."
But you are always "brand new" in the ever-fresh timeless moment anyway. Everything is "erased", everything is vanishing... unless you hold on to it.
"Everyone has their own story. That was mine."
Whatever.
Posted by: tao | June 06, 2007 at 06:03 PM
well, i see people always talking about "If God exist" and i always wonder, "What if he does and there is a heaven and a hell". Then i wil spend eternity with my Father in heaven and the unbelievers will suffer in hell". If god doesnt exist, then i have lost nothing and my morals have gained from living a life of good.
Posted by: Lee | June 22, 2007 at 10:17 PM
Lee, good grief!
Live a life of "good", but don't waste your time believing in some wrathful, vengeful diety who punishes his creations for the very defects he built into them by banishing them to hell. This is an asinine belief founded in ignorance, superstition and fear. Do you want to spend eternity with such a sadistic creature? Such qualities would more likely be found in the devil. Look within yourself to what is prior to thought and concepts to see what is real.
Posted by: Tucson Bob | June 23, 2007 at 07:29 PM
Does God exist or more intelligently is there an unseen controlling entity that designed and made/fabricated the universe and everything in it? Your body is made of atoms (the smallest component of an element). The majority of your body is made of only three elements, hydrogen, Oxygen and carbon. A 70 kilogram person (154 lbs or 11 stones) would have approximately 727 atoms. That is 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. At the start of the universe, shortly after it coming into existence after the so-called big bang, everything that is in the universe now (matter and energy) existed (although it was mostly the element Hydrogen at that time). This is of course theoretical as is nearly all of our understanding of the universe from the very large (astronomy0 to the very small (quantum mechanics).
Astronomers can only account for 4% of the universe. They theorise that the missing part is made up of 22% dark matter and 74% dark energy. The universe is behaving in a way that contradicts the understood laws of physics and no one knows why.
The estimated age of the earth is 4.5 billion (4,500,000,000) years. Life is thought to have started 3.5 billion (3,500,000,000) years ago. The fossil record appears to start suddenly about 600 million years ago. All the worlds mammals are thought to have evolved from a small shrew/mouse type creature that lived 65 million years ago at the time the dinosaurs became extinct. Man (Hominid species) emerged during the Pleistocene epoch from 1,808,000 to 11,550 years ago the descendents of ape like creatures that lived 2.5 million years ago. The time lines are not logical. For 63 million years there must have been enormous changes and diversification but for the past 2.5 million nothing. Supposedly, all the many different kind of mammals that live now evolved from a single source (a small mouse like mammal) over a period of 63 million years. Then evolution suddenly stopped.
……………………………….....................................................................
Look round you, open your eyes. The total number of living species runs into millions. Think of the enormous complexity and symmetry of every living thing. Think of the many different types of butterflies with there intricate wing markings. Think of the thousand types of exotic fish in tropical waters. Marvel at the complexity of the eye and the enormously complex structure of the human body. Think of the multitude of insects and beetles. See the many species of birds with their intricate feather markings. Darwin gave us the theory/idea that it all came about by small accidental changes over a long period of time, which he called Natural Selection, the process by which evolution occurs. Putting aside for one moment the question of how life started; not even over an infinite time would we arrive accidentally at the enormous complexity and symmetry of life that we have on earth. The only thing that will ever come from chaos is chaos.
………………………………..........................................................................
The human brain contains more than 100 billion (100,000,000,000) neurons. My personal PC has 149 GB of storage. 149 Gigabytes is 149,000,000,000. That means my PC has more storage capacity than my brain. Nobody understands how the brain stores and retrieves memory, makes us dream and enables us to become thinking aware emotional beings. It is a complete mystery. Martin Rees (cosmologist) said, “What is remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins”. What he should have said is “From all the material that came into existence very soon after the theoretical Big Bang it is impossible for life to start”. “Unintelligent atoms will always be that no matter what combinations that they are joined in”. I repeat..FROM ALL THE MATERIAL THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE VERY SOON AFTER THE THEORETICAL BIG BANG IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR LIFE TO START. UNINTELLIGENT ATOMS WILL ALWAYS BE THAT NO MATTER WHAT COMBINATIONS THAT THEY ARE JOINED IN. So, how are we thinking, living , human living animals if we are made of cells, molecules, elements which in turn are made from individual unthinking atoms?
………………………………......................................................................
Why do people believe in evolution and accept it when it is obvious nonsense. Is it because it is a convenient answer to the religious alternative of an all loving and wise creator/fabricator (God) which they cannot accept. It is obvious that if there is an entity called God he/it is evil, malicious and a grand deceiver. If evolution is obvious nonsense (which it is), and there is not a loving wise creator what is the truth? And what is the meaning of life?
A book was published in 2007 called ‘The Testament of Gideon Mack’. It is about a Church of Scotland minister who claims to have met the Devil (Satan) in an underground cave. The end of his life saw Mack discredited as a lunatic and castigated by his kirk. It is acceptable to many people to believe in a loving, caring God but not an evil entity called Satan. Yet the reality is obvious. There is no sign at all of a loving, caring, all-powerful God but every sign that if there is an unseen controlling entity it/he makes the biblical Satan look like a Sunday school teacher by comparison. During the past 120 years, over 200 million people have been killed by the deliberate acts of violence of other people. This excludes people that have died from causes such as famine, disease, flood, earthquakes etc. When we add the deaths pain and suffering from these it is clear to see (but who does) that this place where we all live is very ugly and evil.
The mistake that everyone makes when thinking about the universe and our existence as life forms in it is that only consider one of two probabilities. The scientific explanation (no external cause) or the religious explanation (God). If you put aside the puerile religious nonsense, you are left with two probabilities. It just all occurred because it did or it was designed and made/fabricated by a controlling unseen entity. If you have intelligence (understanding), the answer is obvious no matter how unpleasant that is.
Robert [email protected]
Posted by: Robert | July 01, 2007 at 05:20 AM
Here is what came after I read Robert's comment:
When caught in the illusion of self-identity and when functioning in split mind, the universe appears to be at odds with itself and conflict seems to exist. Prior to this subject-object functioning, in whole-mind if you will, it is SEEN that all is functioning as ONE and things are going along quite nicely and couldn't be any other way. From this perspective, evolution or non-evolution is not relevant. All is now in this moment as it is and that's the purpose.
Pure non-objectivity makes an object of itself and the universe appears as subject-object and all the pairs of opposites. It is all a dream of conceptuality, mind stuff, of quarks of mnemonic impressions in rapid succession until matter appears.
***********
I move.
Space becomes as a result of my movement.
Time is born as a measure of my movement in space.
I have objects because I have become the subject of space and time.
Dualism is established.
The universe appears.
I identify with my objects.
There are illusory egos.
I suffer illusorily.
*************
I rest.
Space vanishes.
Times ceases.
There are no objects because I am no longer a subject.
Dualism is no more.
The universe dissappears.
There are no illusory egos.
There is no suffering.
I am, but there is no me.
*************
God in this present instant: no concepts, form, attributes, dimension or extension in time. No thing at all, and yet, all things. Radiant emptiness.
NOW !
Posted by: Tucson Bob | July 01, 2007 at 09:52 AM
Tucson Bob, I think your dreaming. Robert is too. When your are dreaming, you don't know that it was a dream until you wake up. Right now you think you are awake, everything seems real but it is not. When you wake up from reality you will be in Heaven. Mater does not exist. It exists only in your mind. Nothing is real. Mel Steffor
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 19, 2007 at 07:34 AM
When Jesus came to see me in 2006, he had this to say about the meaning of First is Last and Last is First:
In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon, I live my Life. In the evening I die, death.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 19, 2007 at 07:37 AM
Mel,
Maybe it was a dream that Jesus came to you in 2006? Or maybe it was the Flying Spagetti Monster in disguise: http://www.venganza.org/
Posted by: Tucson | November 19, 2007 at 09:29 AM
Yes, Jesus did talk to me in a dream. He also talked to me during the day.
In 2007 God talked to me. He had this to say:
We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 20, 2007 at 07:13 AM
Thanks for the link to the spagetti monster site. I found the artical 'Cult take refuge in Cave', funny. Now they don't have to stay in a cave. God also told me that Judgment Day is February 22. He didn't say what year. So they only need to spend Feb. 22 in the cave. The rest of the year they can spend on the surface. Besides God knows they are in the Cave. Like he can't find them.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 20, 2007 at 07:23 AM
Dear Mel,
You said: "Yes, Jesus did talk to me in a dream."
--What was it about Jesus in the dream that proved to you it was really Jesus and not just another dreamed figure? I am not asking this in a challenging way. Many people are convinced they are contacted in dreams. I am interested in how your experience manifested. Same for your contacts with God.
I have had some interesting dreams. Occasionally a beautiful, radiant, robed female figure appears, usually in a small temple-like structure at the end of a sparkling stone path that winds through a garden or meadow. I notice that although I feel I am walking on the path, I have no feet. Part of the robe shrouds her head, but her face is softly clear. She doesn't say anything. In fact, her mouth and all features, while appearing classic in form, seem to be vestigial and non-functioning. Everything is conveyed through her light. I feel informed, soothed and refreshed by her presence. She conveys her name is Mary. If I were a Christian, no doubt I would think this is Mother Mary.
However, despite the vividness of this appearance, more so than anything in the waking state, I can't say that this figure is anything but a projection of some aspect of my mind...a "higher aspect" of myself informing myself would be one way to put it.
This thought occurs to me: Why are her features classically caucasian as in a Greek sculpture? Why not african, asian, semitic, or other worldly? Is it because as a caucasian, this is my subconscious standard of beauty? I definitely have appreciated some beautiful africans, asians, etc.
Posted by: Tucson | November 20, 2007 at 08:50 AM
Tucson . . . . . I would say that your dream was a good one. I rather enjoyed your dream. I am going to try to figure out the meaning of your dream. Interesting that you don't have feet in the dream. My quess is you see the woman as a Mother figure. You don't have feet because some how she is carrying you, holding or lifting you up. She speaks in light and not words. Now if this is a vivid dream and the garden with the temple is a real place that you know, it could be a dream from God.
My dream from God and Jesus was also a good dream, very vivid. It has been over a year since the dream and I remember it better than yesterday. Everything in the dream was symbolic and had a meaning that I could figure out. The first dream was about going to Heaven, God was in the dream. The second dream was about my life and or Christs life, I am alone. The third dream I was at the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, Jesus was in this dream. All of the dreams were vivid. That is how God told me the meaning of First is Last. All of the places in the dreams are real places, even you, anyone can go to the places in my dreams.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 20, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Now all of the people in my dreams are caucasian too. I am white is so are my friends, relatives and everyone around me. Wouldn't it be funny if african, asian, semitic, and indians had all caucasians in their dreams too.
Jesus and God were both caucasians in my dreams. I think that is funny. Maybe Black people have a black God in their dreams.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 20, 2007 at 10:38 AM
Mel is not only "dreaming" but also apparently has delusions and fantasies about Jesus and heaven.
You are way out of your depth here Mel. And you are also on the verge of making an utter fool of yourself with your absurd religious fictions.
Do the rest of us all a big favor and leave your Jesus crap out of it.
Posted by: tAo | November 20, 2007 at 12:38 PM
Dear Mel,
Meaning no disrespect, after reading your dream description my impression is that you were simply dreaming and your dreams are merely reflecting your deeply held religious beliefs. I don't think it was God or Jesus, but that is up to you. If you were a cat, the dreams may have been of chasing a particularly plump mouse and catching it.
Posted by: Tucson | November 20, 2007 at 02:25 PM
Tucson . . . . I don't expect any one to believe me. And I am not blogging to force people to believe my story. I am just putting in out on the Internet. God asked me to write and that is what I have been doing. I do have more proof. Volumns of proof. Gods message is on the net for all to see. You can Judge for yourself if the messages above are from God or not.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 21, 2007 at 04:01 AM
Tao . . . . Something gives me a feeling that you still haven't come out of the closet about being a Christian. You have something to hide? Just a feeling. Maybe it was the way you said 'Holy Crap'.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 21, 2007 at 04:06 AM
Mel,
Dreams, being purely subjective, aren't provable to anyone. While your dreams may be sacred to you, to others they are just dreams. Since this blog is dedicated to the exploration of non-belief, expect to be challenged. You expose yourself to the risk of having your faith undermined. Others don't value your experiences as you do.
Mind is very powerful and deceptive. We fool ourselves all the time. Information (phenomena) is filtered through our conditioning and beliefs. Muslims believe Mohammed speaks to them. Buddhists have dreams of Buddha imparting wisdom. A Christian would say they are being deceived. Buddhists and Muslims would say the Christian is being deceived. Maybe they are all being deceived by themselves.
It is scary to be be a mortal ego in the vastness of eternity. This is like being in a boat in an endless sea alone with no motor, sails or oars. We grasp something to give meaning and security in the midst of this seeming chaos and vulnerability. We want to believe, so we do believe even though deep down our reason and logic knows better. We believe that a certain motor, oars or set of sails will protect us and lead to our salvation. But in an endless sea there is no shore of salvation, no destination to be reached no matter how powerful the motor or how great the sails. Surrender to the sea. Be the sea and you will have no boundaries to be lost or gained. Let the imaginary drop of youself disappear into the vast water of infinity and be free. Free of the fear of mortality. Free of the confines of belief.
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm
Posted by: Tucson | November 21, 2007 at 09:34 AM
Hi Tucson, I went to your link and took this:
"54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%."
Now I don't believe all of the bible is true. Part is Fact, Fable and anothe part is Fabricated. That is why God had a chat with me. He told me where parts are lies. Some one took First is Last and Last is First out of Revelation. Maybe cause they didn't understand it.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 21, 2007 at 01:31 PM
Guys,
I just had a dream - I took a nap at work - Jesus talked to me in the dream!!!!! He told that me that he never talked to this fellow called Mel Steffor before (and that he does not like much conversing in dreams either).
"Houston (I think) we have a problem!"
Posted by: the elephant | November 21, 2007 at 02:36 PM
Best Wishes Mel. Happy Thanksgiving to all:
check out the gratitude dance:
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=R9z2ELaBVJY
Posted by: Tucson | November 21, 2007 at 02:39 PM
It appears that Mel is quite unfamiliar with others of us on this blog forum. Mel's idea that I am religious or that I am a Christian shows just how warped this dude's perceptions are. Not to mention the fact that, according to his testimony that he came here to present, Mel is suffering from serious delusions.
Here's just a few samples:
"God asked me to write and that is what I have been doing."
"I do have more proof. Volumns of proof. Gods message is on the net for all to see."
"the messages above are from"
"Something gives me a feeling that you still haven't come out of the closet about being a Christian."
"have something to hide?"
"Maybe it was the way you said 'Holy Crap'."
So fyi Mel, I never said "Holy Crap". I said: "Do the rest of us all a big favor and leave your Jesus crap out of it."
So first get your basic facts straight before you go making ridiculous presumptions about where others are at. ... But you have already made a fool of yourself here anyway with your ridiculously lame 'conversations with God' BS.
Like I said before, religious nuts like you are are way beyond your depth here. With all due respect, you can take your delusional God/Jesus/Christian/Bible crap and shove it.
This is blog is a place for the "Church-less"... not the Church-more who want to go around telling others like you do that 'God talks to you' and vice-versa.
Imo, you are just another god-damn religious lunatic, a pathetic moron who desires for others to think that you are godly.
This blog seems to attract nuts like you from time to time, but if you think that anyone here believes one iota your goofy garbage, then you are sorely mistaken.
But you are wasting your (and our) time here. Go find some Christian church goons or another site to preach your fantasies to. This is not some brainless Bible Blog.
Posted by: tAo | November 21, 2007 at 04:02 PM
Tucson . . . . Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks for the Hugs Link. You seem to be the nice one on this site. Nicer than Tao and Elepht. God also told me that Mike Douglas, Merv Griffin, Nancy Reagan, and Richard Dawkins go to Heaven. God said that Leona Helmsley goes to Hell. Now Jerry Falwell falls into a third catagory. Jerry does not go to Heaven and God does not want to torture him in Hell either. Jerry just disappears, he becomes Null.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM
What I found interesting is that Richard Dawkins, an Atheist goes to Heaven. God said that Richard is an embarrasment, yet God thinks of Richard as a pet. He is fond of Richard. So good Athiests go to Heaven.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 22, 2007 at 03:39 AM
God has decided to make an example of Leona. God gave her everything, beauty, opportunities, and then she married well. In return she thought of herself as a Queen. She was mean and ruthless in running her hotel. She would berate employees for the smallest things before she fired them. There are hundreds of such stories about her. Near the end of her life, Leona realized she was dying. She knew about Jesus and God. She asked God to forgive her for being so mean all of her life. God said it was the 11th hour. It was to late. He sent her to Hell.
Now I feel sorry for her. And I think she was set up to fail. But God could have given her a number of chances. I don't know for sure. She could have had a previous life. God could have been thinking, just watch, she will be the same mean tyrant she was 500 years ago, 1000 years ago, and 3000 years ago.
Now Hell for Leona means that she is now Alone. She is independent and separated from the rest of us and God. She is not burning in a fiery place or being poked at. Being alone for eternity would be Hell for me. I want to be with others in Heaven. I enjoy other people.
Posted by: Leona Helmsley | November 22, 2007 at 03:59 AM
Jerry Falwell. Well known TV evangelist. Jerry said he was a Christian yet he does not go to Heaven. I found that interesting, In the bible it says all you have to do is believe in Jesus. Now I don't know much about Jerry, all I know is that he hated Gays. God must not agree with Jerry in a number of places. You can do your own research on Jerry to find out why he did not go to Heaven.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 22, 2007 at 04:04 AM
Tao . . . . . Now I am not into scareing people. But you said moron, religious lunatic, religious nut,etc. Do you talk to people like that all the time. I am not a bad person or a mean person. Then you think your smarter than I am. We all came out of the same gene pool. How did you get the smart genes? Smarty pants.
Mean Atheists will be Alone. Good atheists, like it or not go to Heaven.
Now I could be on Gods Left in Heaven. Could happen, I mean, God talked to me and not the Pope. You can repeat what you said above on Judgment Day. Or you can say your sorry. You will have my full attention.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 22, 2007 at 04:17 AM
Mel/Leona,
Are you kidding? If not, you are deranged. You have pushed me into Tao's camp. Quit posting this madness and please see a competent therapist. Seriously.
For those who missed it, here is the gratitude dance. Appropriate for Thanksgiving or whenever. Shake out the madness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9z2ELaBVJY
Posted by: Tucson | November 22, 2007 at 07:44 AM
FAO Tucson
Why don'you find out where this soul is , rather than being told, every person has a different idea and veiw of it, so i can't generally say where this is in the human body it may vary!!! but iy's important to know that one can feel it, as being one with the soul. there i s no end or beginning!! it just transforms it's energy levels. Thats the reason why one has to move to a higher energy level than one present on this planet.
As i said it's my knowing of the word COHESION it may appear to you different.
WHY should you Clarifiy to the readers,and say "as if anyone would be interested." Let each reader voice there own opion on this and give their own a feed back, thats what this blog is all about , not one persons i.e your-summary!!
As a happy joyful free sprit i feel there is still roon in me to welcome more warmth of love and higher levels of pure engery which are being radiant in other universal planes.
LOVE AND PEACE TO ALL
Posted by: Sam | November 22, 2007 at 09:27 AM
LOVE and PEACE TO ALL SOULS.
I hope my answer was read by Tao and Tucsaon.
As afree sprit i hope they understand who i am and where i am going.
Thank you all for you feed back!!
LOVE and PEACE to ALL
Posted by: Sam | November 22, 2007 at 09:30 AM
The year was 1963 in Dallas, Texas. A shot rang out and a great president was assassinated. God sees everything. God said that the man that killed JFK was a policeman. The killer was hiding behind a tree on the same side of the road as John F. Kennedy drove toward him. What happens to the killer after he dies? Now Leona goes to Hell, she never killed anyone. Hell for Leona is just being alone. God did not tell me what Hell would be like for the killer of a great man like JFK. My guess it will be worse than what Leona got. Something very evil happened that day in November that sent a nation into morning. Now God also told me the name of the Killer. It wasn't Oswald. Oswald was set up by the cops. The letters in the killers name are F. Ritter. I think that explains the pristine bullet. This will come out in the news for everyone to see. This information did not come in a dream. Jesus spent most of 2006 with me during the day. The only reason I know this is that it came from a divine source.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 23, 2007 at 03:00 AM
Toa and Tucson . . . . I already read your comments about seeing a Therapist. When all that you can do is call names, you have lost the debate. This is the end of my posts here. Bye, have a good life. Mel
Posted by: Mel Steffor | November 23, 2007 at 03:08 AM
Oh God!
"When all that you can do is call names, you have lost the debate"
From a person who evokes conversations with Jesus in dreams as source of information or postulates !!!!!
For example: "The only reason I know this is that it came from a divine source."
Some people are just priceless ...
My question is how can some people live with themselves? Look at themselves in the mirror before going to bed and their persona not be simply shattered by the weight of their own contradictions ... Self-deception - instead of the force - must be very strong in some families ...
Posted by: the elephant | November 23, 2007 at 06:57 AM
Mel,
This obsession with celebrities and thinking god is telling you their fate in the afterlife is very troubling. I am afraid you will next think god is telling you to carry out his punishments and act on it. I am not trying to win a debate by name-calling. This is the same as my telling a person to see a doctor who was displaying symptoms of malaria or meningitis. You appear to be suffering from a delusional disorder. Get help from the best psychiatrist you can find.
Posted by: Tucson | November 23, 2007 at 01:30 PM
To Mel,
You already "lost the debate" before you ever even came here. No one is interested in your immature christian religious preaching and other related nonsense. People are interested in meaningful discussion, not dim-witted religious dogma.
Posted by: tAo | November 24, 2007 at 02:41 PM
Hey Mel...
Guess what? ... There is no doubt now and it is totally obvious to the rest of us that you're definitely a real crazy bastard. This is troubling. You've got some real serious mental problems. Go and get some very needed professional help ASAP. Seriously. I am not joking.
Posted by: tAo | November 24, 2007 at 02:57 PM
Hey Edward, i don't mean to be rude here, but please let me state something. The Bible is a book, true. ISN'T EVOLUTION FROM A BOOK TOO!!!Also, of course the Bible has an author! In fact, more than one author; and each of them had an experience with God. Evolution, on the other hand, was written by ONE man!
Evolution states that animals transformed into other animals. Yet not one fossil of transformation has been found!"
Darwin once said,"If any fossils showing transformation are not found in 100 years, then let my theory be cast aside." Well it's been over 100 years, and still there is no fossils!
This may be a shocker to you all, but here is the truth.
I STAND BY GOD!!
Posted by: C | April 09, 2008 at 07:16 AM
By the way, I have some stories for all atheists; and I say this with respect.
An atheists' daughter was sick. He took her to the hospital, where she was near death. In his sorrow, the atheist cried out to God,"If you truly exist, save my daughter; and I will serve you for the rest of my life." Next day, the daughter was healed! That man now is a Christian and works with the Gideons, a organization that puts Bibles in hotels, planes etc.
Another story comes from a doctor. She was an atheist. Of all the many things she did, she worked on dying children. But there was something interesting about this. Whenever a child died, they would like forward and state they saw a man. Then, they would describe the man as Jesus! They continued to say, "Don't you see him?" until fell dead.
A third story, is not of one person, but of many. Men and women have constantly tried to prove God is not real. After their search, they come back as Christians. This has happened more than once.
My final story, is of an evolution professor taught evolution for many years, he even work a book on it! When he was finally shown the creation theory, he was upset that he had never been taught a theory other than evolution. He now is a Christian.
Posted by: C | April 09, 2008 at 07:37 AM
Tao, I would laos like to tell you something. You seem to be very angry with us Christians. But look, don't think I hate you. My job, and every Christian's job, is to defend their faith and grow in God. You may have other beliefs, but I respect you and other atheists. I may not agree with you, but I don't wish to have hate between Atheists and Christians.
Posted by: C | April 09, 2008 at 07:41 AM
C,
"sticks and stones shall break my bones, but words shall never hurt me"
It would appear that Words can hurt. Internet words and sentences do bring about a type of hurt.
Posted by: Roger | April 09, 2008 at 08:52 AM
To "C":
C said: "Evolution, on the other hand, was written by ONE man!"
-- Incorrect. Evolution is not simply the idea of one man. Evolution is evident throught the species. It is an scientifically observable process....not just some collection of beliefs and myths as is the Bible. So you apparently have no education or understanding about evolution. Which is typical for so many unthinking religious believers who have nothing to show other than blind faith in a collection of fantasies and myths.
"Evolution states that animals transformed into other animals. Yet not one fossil of transformation has been found"
-- No, not "tranformed", but evolved. There is a big difference.... which you are obviously ignorant of.
"Well it's been over 100 years, and still there is no fossils!"
-- Wrong again.
"This may be a shocker to you all, but here is the truth. I STAND BY GOD!!"
-- Merely words espousing blind faith and belief in an empty fantasy.
"By the way, I have some stories for all atheists; and I say this with respect."
-- Stories are just stories. Period. And respect for whom, for what? It is obvious that you have respect for absurd religious myths and illusions, but where is your respect for evidence, substance, fact, and truth?
"Tao, ... You seem to be very angry with us Christians."
-- I am not angry at anyone. Many Christians are fine people. I just don't share in their fantasies and illusions. I actually lived and literally walked all over the world in the life and way that Christ himself actually lived and taught, for over 16 years. You have no idea who you are talking to. I didn't just talk a bunch of empty talk and go around touting some archaic book of words and myths (the Bible), and go running to some brainwashed, pretentious, and hypocritical Church as people like yourself tend to do. You have absolutely nothing to teach or show me. Not truth nor love. You don't know what truth is, nor what love really is. You haven't got any clue as to what the supposed Jesus actually taught and how he really lived. And so you certainly don't live it yourself. If you did, then you would not be babbling a bunch of judgemental religious dogma at some supposed "atheists" like you are doing here.
"But look, don't think I hate you. My job, and every Christian's job, is to defend their faith and grow in God."
-- Sorry to inform you, but that's NOT what Jesus taught or lived. Jesus did NOT teach to "defend" anything, nor did he teach to "grow". He simply taught how to LIVE in the Light... he did not teach any or all of the bullshit that pretentious religious people like you manufacture in order to justify your egos and your false religious dogmas and your holier-than-thouness.
"You may have other beliefs, but I respect you and other atheists."
-- I DO NOT have any "beliefs", and I am NOT an atheist. I do not need beliefs. I have no use for beliefs. Therefore, I do not believe or not believe in God. But brainwashed people like you cannot comprehend that. But hopefully you will eventually awaken to reality and align with the the truth and the Light.
"I don't wish to have hate between Atheists and Christians."
-- Then stop calling people atheists, and stop isolating yourself as a Christian, and stop assuming that you have the truth and God is on your side or vice versa, when in fact you don't. If you don't wish to see hatred and manifest it as you yourself are doing, then get beyond the false duality of Christian versus Atheist, and just be truly humble and receptive to the truth and the higher Light.
Posted by: tAo | April 09, 2008 at 02:38 PM
To Tao,
You're right, I'm not a genius when it comes to evolution. But I have just found a piece of evidence that I would like you to respond to.
Evolution states that animals transformed into other animals. The only way that could happen is for the DNA to change. But yesterday I learned that if the DNA is scrambled, the person or thing dies!
Posted by: C | April 10, 2008 at 06:08 AM
C, I reccomend that you watch The Salamnder's Tale at the following link: it may clear up certain misconceptions about evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbUBlJzkVk
Failing this, I reccomend that you buy The Blind Watchmaker or The Ancestor's Tales by Richard Dawkins, or Cosmos or Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan. You will gain a greater understanding of what the theory of evolution actually is by reading any or all of these books.
Posted by: Helen | April 10, 2008 at 06:49 AM
Thanks for the link, but does anybody have an argument for what I said about the DNA being scrambled?
Posted by: C | April 10, 2008 at 09:34 AM
C,
Don't forget, a theory is only a theory. A theory is not a KNOWN FACT.
When you read something that claims to be a theory, then all you should claim to know is something that is theoretical.
Example of a Known Fact: the word "receive" is not spelled recieve.
Posted by: Roger | April 10, 2008 at 11:06 AM
By the way guys, I only ask these questions because I would like to know what you guys think.
But that DNA thing is not a theory. It's in my friends' science book. (We're homeschooled)
Posted by: C | April 10, 2008 at 11:40 AM
C, I'm not expert on DNA and mutations, but a little Google research taught me that "scrambling" isn't an accurate description of a mutation.
There are different types of mutations. Some are akin to changing just one letter in a sentence. Others do scramble the meaning of a sentence. See:
http://www.genetichealth.com/G101_Changes_in_DNA.shtml
For sure, a mutation doesn't mean the death of the organism. Changes in DNA are happening constantly. The web page above points out that everyone has DNA changes during their life.
If those mutations meant death, there would be no humans.
Regarding transitional fossils, lots of them have been found. This is one reason why evolution is so well supported by evidence. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
Just ran across this new evidence today:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/fossil_snake_with_legs.php
I suspect you believe in God. I'd like to suggest that you also believe in the reality of God's creation. To deny the facts of the creation while believing in the creator strikes me as an insincere belief.
You're trying to tell God how the creation should have been created. Really, that's blasphemy. Science does its best to find out how creation actually occurred, which makes science more spiritual than fundamentalist religion.
Posted by: Brian | April 10, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Brian, I'm not trying to tell God how to make the universe! I love the universe, God make it perfect. Except when us humas sinned, that's when imperfection came. I believe God exists, he created the universe, and that he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross.
Posted by: C | April 10, 2008 at 12:39 PM
May I ask a question though? I've always wondered this...what do atheists believe will happen to them after they die?
Posted by: C | April 10, 2008 at 12:40 PM
And by the way Roger, everything is a theory! Christianity & even evolution are theories! We may get a bunch of evidence for both points, it's all a theory.
Posted by: C | April 10, 2008 at 12:43 PM
C,
'And by the way Roger, everything is a theory! Christianity & even evolution are theories! We may get a bunch of evidence for both points, it's all a theory.'
Excellant point.......I sure do agree....
Posted by: Roger | April 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM
C and Roger: some notions are supported by evidence. That earns them the right to be called "theories." Like, the Theory of Evolution, the Theory of Relativity.
Others aren't supported by evidence. Like the notion that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected. So it isn't correct to say that all theories are the same.
This is from the National Academy of Sciences:
"Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
Posted by: Brian | April 10, 2008 at 01:05 PM
Well, you're right in saying there's no proof of Jesus' ressurection...but there is proof he existed.
But what I don't understand is how evolutionists can think all this came out from an explosion! Look at the earth, look at water, look at the atmosphere and all of nature! From what I see, none of this stuff could have happened from a big bang? Another thing is, if this explosion happened once, why hasn't it happened again? Why has there never been another big bang that creates plants or life?
How does evolution state water came? Water contains hydrogen and oxygen. Yet, when you put those two gases together, you don't get water.
Also, this thing about them finding fossils that proves evolution is wrong! Scientists have not found ONE fossil that shows the stages of evolution. If could take a fish's head, then a duck's head, then a alligator's head and put them together; and claim that the fish evolved into a duck, then an alligator!
Posted by: C | April 10, 2008 at 01:17 PM
To C,
In my opinion, the theory of evolution does not undermine the credibility of the Christian teachings as much as Christians who deny the viability of evolution.
In other words, I don't have a problem reconciling evolution with Christ's teachings, but when I see a Christian trying to undermine evolution with misleading or incorrect information, I start to wonder if there is something amiss in the Christian belief system.
The Christian beliefs can stand on their own merits, I think, but trying to tear down science only weakens that stand.
Posted by: mysti | April 10, 2008 at 04:43 PM
I absolutely agree with Mysti on this. And especially with regard to the goofy religious nonsense and incorrect information that has been espoused by C recently.
Posted by: tAo | April 10, 2008 at 05:22 PM
This is my last post. All I would like is a response to what I presented in my last posting.
Mysti, I don't agree iwht evolution, but I believe it should be taught AS A THEORY, not a fact; but remember, the teaching of God is also a theory. Also, evolution should be taught not as "If you don't agree with this you're stupid." I believe students should be able to argue against and choose which theory they believe, Creation or Evolution.
That's all I wanted to say, and I'm waiting for a response to what I stated in my last posting.
Thank you.
Posted by: C | April 14, 2008 at 09:03 AM
C,
I wasn't aware that Evolution was being taught as a fact. Do you have an example of a school that teaches that way?
Teaching something about GOD is ok. Nothing wrong in believing in GOD.
I think, I got the impression from one of your comments that all Atheist hate GOD and Christians. Again, I am not aware of this.
Never heard of anyone that stated, "They hate GOD and Christians." How did you learn this?
Again.....No big Deal.....
Posted by: Roger | April 14, 2008 at 10:24 AM
C, I'm sure you realize that science isn't based on beliefs, but on facts. Students can believe whatever they want, religiously, but you're heading for a failing grade if you tell the teacher, "I don't believe in atoms; I believe that little green men are the foundation of matter and energy."
Same thing with how life came to be, and changed, on earth. Or how the universe evolved. Facts, facts, facts. Not beliefs, beliefs, beliefs.
Posted by: Brian | April 14, 2008 at 10:29 AM
C wrote: "there's no proof of Jesus' ressurection...but there is proof he existed."
-- Please provide that proof that Jesus existed. If you are going to say that there is proof, then lets see it. On the other hand...
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum
C wrote: "what I don't understand is how evolutionists can think all this came out from an explosion!"
-- Then go take a good look at the scientific theory, astrophysics and so on such as the big bang etc. You sound like someone who has no knowledge of that which you are actually questioning. If you don't understand the big bang theory, then just go do some basic study and research about it instead of just ignorantly saying "I don't understand...how...all this came out from an explosion".
C writes: "Look at the earth... From what I see, none of this stuff could have happened from a big bang?"
-- Again, if you don't "see", and you don't understand, then just go study the basics of the theory, instead of asking such a dumb question on a blog such as this.
C wrote: "Another thing is, if this explosion happened once, why hasn't it happened again?"
-- Well first of all, you don't seem to even understand the basic theory. So maybe if you had a minimal grasp on the basics of the big bang theory, then you would know why. You can go get that information on your own.
C wrote: Why has there never been another big bang that creates plants or life?
-- Now it has become really evident that you are ignorant. The big bang has nothing directly to do with creating plants etc. It has to do with the origin of energy, matter, stars, time and space. Why don't you just go study the bing bang theory instead of asking such stupid questions.
C wrote: "How does evolution state water came? Water contains hydrogen and oxygen. Yet, when you put those two gases together, you don't get water."
-- The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the elements hydrogen and oxygen combining to produce water. Evolution has to do with the evolution of the species. Just go back and study the theory of evolution instead of asking these dumb-ass questions.
C wrote: "this thing about them finding fossils that proves evolution is wrong! Scientists have not found ONE fossil that shows the stages of evolution."
-- Now you are really proving how utterly ignorant and stupid you are. Did you even graduate from high school? In light of all that you have said, I cannot see how you possibly could have.
C wrote: "If could take a fish's head, then a duck's head, then a alligator's head and put them together; and claim that the fish evolved into a duck, then an alligator!"
-- You are worse than stupid. Need I say any more?
Posted by: tAo | April 14, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Hey Brian, I like that saying! --
"Facts, facts, facts. Not beliefs, beliefs, beliefs."
Maybe you should enshrine that motto up somehwere on the site in blinking neon lights. Seriously :o)
Posted by: tAo | April 14, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Roger said:
*Don't forget, a theory is only a theory. A theory is not a KNOWN FACT.*
A theory is developed from known facts: it then becomes a question of which theory is more rational.
For example, the temporary appearance of rainbows in the sky is an observable fact; ancient Hebrews theorised that it was a message from God saying he wouldn't flood the earth (again:how nice of him-oh wait, it's brimstone and fire next time).
Had the ancient Hebrews had access to the knowledge of sunlight refraction through raindrops as the cause of rainboes they probably wouldn't have developed the theory that God was talking to them.
Similarly, had the ancient Hebrews known about intersex human beings they wouldn't have theorised that human beings are made male and female only and we wouldn't be plagued with all that "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" nonsense as it is now observable that life is far more varied than our ancestors knew.
Posted by: Helen | April 14, 2008 at 11:43 AM
Helen,
I stand corrected, in my initial rush to write a comment. Thanks for your comment.
The Rain Bow, found in the sky, is Something that one can observe. It is there. The method that one can use to observe it or measure it can change. Therefore, the theory that one formulates to describe it can change. A theory is not always a constant. The content of a theory can change through time.
Where is the Absolute totally nonchangeable explanation of Something. I think that is what we all really want. The absolute truth of something and everything.
A religiously derived theory or scientifically derived theory is ok. I just want something Absolute. In the mean time, theory is theory........nothing wrong with theory...
Posted by: Roger | April 14, 2008 at 01:39 PM
Thank you kindly tao, Roger Helen and Brian. I am not being sarcastic, I just wanted to know what your arguements were. Tao, I am studying the big bang theory and evolution. I pray you have a good, long life. Same to you all. Thank you again.
And by the way tao, if you tell me to study evolution and the big bang (which I am), I encourage you to look up evidence proving Jesus' existence. If you watched the whole Atheists vs Christians debate, you'll find a man who has researched Jesus and has found evidence for his existence.
Posted by: C | April 14, 2008 at 01:48 PM
C,
I don't care whether or not you study evolution or the big bang. I just think you ought to know more about what it is that you disagree with.
As for the existence of Jesus, I could not care less. I have absolutely no interest in some supposed guy who may have existed (but more likely did not), and even if he really did exist, he was just some guy who has been dead for 2000 years. I am interested in the living, not the dead. Jesus is nothing and no one to me. And the Jesus that people now believe in, is a religious myth and an illusion. I have no use for such illusions. My own very real life is enough for me. People who believe in Jesus are deluded, insecure, immature, and foolish, imo.
So thanks... but NO thanks.
Posted by: tAo | April 14, 2008 at 04:06 PM
Alright then, I respect your thoughts. Yes, I do have much to learn about evolution and the big bang. Well anyway, this is my last post. All I ask is for you to respect my faith just as I respect your thoughts.
Thank you and have a good day.
Posted by: C | April 15, 2008 at 07:30 AM
By the way Tao, here's a few deluded, insecure, foolish, immature people who believed in Jesus. These people also believed in God and believed he created the universe.
Isaac Newton
Louis Pasteur
Leonardo da Vinci
George Washington Carver
Joseph Lister
Samuel F.B. Morse
Adam Sedqwick (Friend of Charles Darwin)
John Ambrose Fleming
Charles Stine (organic chemist)
Douglas Dewar (former evolutionist)
These are only some of the many "immature, foolish,deluded, insecure men."
Posted by: C | April 15, 2008 at 07:48 AM
C,
It appears that, and I conclude that you really did not comprehend or understand my previous message to you at all.
I don't respect anyone's faith, even if you say that you "respect" my "thoughts" as you have. I just don't have any respect for blind faith. That's just the way I am. So don't ask me or expect me to "respect" your faith. Because I don't. I just don't.
You are probably a very nice person, and I have nothing against you. But don't ask me to respect your faith when I do not, and I cannot. Your "faith" is your own personal choice... but it's not MY choice. I do not operate on blind faith, and so this blind "faith" means nothing to me. It is an illusion imo. So therfore, why should I or why would I need to respect other people's illusions, or their faith in illusions?
You can certainly believe in whatever illusions or realities that you choose to believe in, but don't ask me to believe in them, to have faith in them, or to "respect" them.
I choose not operate on beliefs or faith. Beliefs have no place or value in my life. And I so don't need any faith in such beliefs either. So therfore, don't ask me to value your beliefs, your faith. Don't ask me to "respect" something, or your faith in something, which I do not believe in and which is an illusion to me.
I only value my own direct experience and established proven facts, not mere beliefs and blind faith.
This is one of the big problems that I see with most Christians like yourself. You go around expecting that the rest of the world should believe as you do, and/or that they should "respect" your beliefs and your blind faith. But life just does not work that way. Why should I respect things which, to me, are nothing more than useless fantasies, myths, or illusions? Why should I respect faith in beliefs or illusions? I don't. So don't ask me to do so. And I also don't care whether or not you agree with me or with my views. I don't care if you don't respect my views. My views are derived from direct experience and proven facts, not beliefs, so it doesn't matter to me that you don't see things my way. I am secure in my own direct experience and truth. But you on the other hand, because you are fundamentally insecure - because you have no direct experience, you desire for people to believe as you do and to respect your faith in those beliefs, so that you can then feel more secure and validated in your beliefs and blind faith. Thats the difference between you and I.
Sure, I could play along with your game like you want me to and say "OK I respect your beliefs and your faith", BUT I would not be honest if I did that. I don't respect blind faith. So I am not going to pretend that I do. To me, resorting to blind faith is not intelligent, it is weak and insecure, and so it makes no sense to me. I would ratrher have no faith, than to believe in illusions.
I am oriented altogether towards direct experience and awareness, and NOT towards any kind of spiritual or religious beliefs, blind faith, or any savior figures such as you are.
I hope I have made myself crystal clear to you (and any other readers) on this particular issue and these points.
Now as for your other post listing various notable God & Jesus believers, I will again state that, imo, anyone having belief and blind faith in myths and illusions is indeed insecure, foolish, deluded, and immature.... I don't care who they were. The people that you list may have made various important contributions to scientific knowledge, and that is certainly to their credit, but that does not change what I said at length above about people choosing to resort to blind faith and religion beliefs in order to feel secure in life. Those people could have just as easily done without their belief and faith in "Jesus" as you say they had. Having belief and blind faith does not change the truth, does not change reality one iota... it just makes people feel better for awhile. So you have proven nothing by listing these people, and trying to use them to vaidate your own blind faith and childish need to have a savior figure.
This kind of honesty and may likely be way too much for you to integrate at this point and this stage in your development. But hopefully someday you will begin to understand. Until then, have a nice life... and a nice fantasy.
Posted by: tAo | April 15, 2008 at 02:53 PM
Tao,
Alright, that's okay with me. I'm glad your honest, I would rather have you being honest. Also, I too have absolutely NOTHING against you. I wasn't here to fight, or to hate, I was just here to see what other people think, that's all. I hope you have a good life. I am actually glad I met you.
Posted by: C | April 15, 2008 at 05:09 PM
"I am oriented altogether towards direct experience and awareness"
The above statement should be at the core of one's purpose. Pure and simple.
Posted by: Roger | April 16, 2008 at 07:39 AM
I think Tao must be a child. Lacks any sort of logic, or reason and has an abusive personality. He shouldn't blog about something as complex as creation or evolution until he gains knowlegde in these areas. TAO, grow up.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | June 16, 2008 at 01:39 PM
Tucson,
To some your dream might appear to be from God. Only Catholics have visions of Mary because they worship her, like she is a God. Your dream clearly is not from God. I only tired to make sense out of it to make friendly conversation. A dream from God is Vivid, you will clearly remember the dream years later. Your dream has not meaning. Last, a dream from God has meaning, meaning meanings, and it is complex. If people don't have feet in a dream, it is clearly just a dream and nothing more. There is one more thing that clearly marks a dream from God and a dream that is just a dream. Know what, I your worthy of knowing what that is. You don't know how discuss anything without calling names. You call people names cause your just frustated.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | June 17, 2008 at 02:50 AM
I should have reread that before I posted. What I meant to say, Tucson, is that your not worthy of knowning what that is. God will never talk to someone that has an attitude like your do.
Posted by: Mel Steffor | June 17, 2008 at 02:55 AM
"God will never talk to someone that has an attitude like your do."
---I'm still fascinated as to what God's voice sounds like when he/she is talking.
Mel,
When God does talk, I've been told that he sounds much like Bing Crosby. Is this true?
Posted by: Roger | June 17, 2008 at 07:32 AM
Roger,
That was funny, Bing Crosby. Did you make that up or did you pick that up somewhere?
Posted by: Mel Steffor | July 01, 2008 at 11:04 AM
And Yes, God could sound like Bing Crosby. God does not have a loud booming voice like some people think. Mel
Posted by: Mel Steffor | July 02, 2008 at 07:12 AM
Dear Guys,
I'm back. Yes, I know I said I wouldn't be back, but I still have more questions. I may not agree with you guys, but I will listen to your arguements. I want to know more about what atheists think because I've been thinking about it. Below are 3 questions that I would like answered. Remember, I am here to listen and discuss, not to fight.
1. Why do you not believe Jesus existed?
2. Please give your evidence on why Jesus didn't exist.
3. If you believe Jesus once lived but is not the Son of God, please explain why.
That's all guys. I hope you'll respond so I may learn more about other beliefs. Thanks.
Sincerely,
C
P.S. I would very much like it if Tao and Roger would also respond to this. Thank you.
Posted by: C | July 07, 2008 at 01:04 PM
One other thing,
1. Please also state why you think Jesus did NOT raise from the dead.
Posted by: C | July 07, 2008 at 01:10 PM
C,
Ask yourself: What PROVES Jesus existed, was the son of god, or rose from the dead?
Something to think about:
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm
Posted by: arthur | July 07, 2008 at 01:33 PM
C, Arthur is right. You're mistaking the principle of proof. It requires positive evidence. I could just as well ask you to prove that unicorns aren't prancing in my yard right now or that Santa Claus doesn't exist. What is your evidence that unicorns or Santa Claus don't exist?
I also could ask you equally valid questions:
Why don't you believe Buddha (or Mohammad, or Krishna, or Lao Tzu, or a host of other sages, some of whom are considered to be "sons of God") existed? Why don't you believe these are worthy of our worship?
I see no conclusive evidence that Jesus existed, and no solid evidence at all that he is who Christians believe him to be. It's all hearsay, words written long after his death.
Are you aware that there are quite a few people alive today who are considered to be God in human form? Please supply your evidence for why you don't believe in them. I have my own, but the questions you raised imply that you wouldn't mind being asked the same ones.
There are countless religions, countless supposed prophets and messengers of God. Are you able to give reasons for why you don't accept them? No. You're drawn to a particular religion, and a particular prophet/messenger, for reasons that aren't logical or demonstrable.
This is fine. But I object to those who try to elevate subjective belief into objective truth. Jesus isn't truth. He's a belief.
Posted by: Brian | July 07, 2008 at 01:55 PM
Arthur,
First of all, that didn't answer any of my questions I posted.
Secondly, I saw the article on prayer. The man claims that God will ALWAYS say yes to prayer. In fact, if he would like deeper into the Bible, he would find that God says, "Yes" sometimes, and other times he says, "No." Other times he just says, "Wait." If you look at some of my first posts midway through this page, you'll see a story of a man who prayed and was answered.
Posted by: C | July 07, 2008 at 01:58 PM
Now hold on Brian. I posted those questions for answers. I didn't post them to anger you guys. Again, all I want to know is what your beliefs are.
Next, who ever said I don't believe Buddha, Mohammad, and those other people you listed, existed? I believe they existed, they're historical figures! But they taught untrue doctrines, that's why I don't believe in them.
Another thing, you're not answering my questions. All you did in that last post was attack me. The ONLY reason I posted those questions was to hear your logical evidence to answer those 3 questions.
I hope I've straightened everything out now.
Posted by: C | July 07, 2008 at 02:07 PM
C, you haven't straightened anything out. You're just playing games. That's how I see religion: as a game. So it doesn't surprise me that you'd try to play the belief/faith card, and get disturbed when I and others do the same thing.
If you ask an unanswerable or unreasonable question, don't be surprised if it is thrown back at you.
Like I said, proving the non-existence of something isn't possible. Or at least, virtually impossible. It depends on the nature of the thing. I can tell you that I'm certain there isn't an elephant under my desk, because I just looked.
Nope, no elephant there. But how am I supposed to prove that Jesus didn't exist 2000 years ago, or that Jesus didn't rise from the dead back then?
I don't have to. You, as a Christian, need to provide the evidence. Then I'll consider it and make a decision about whether it's credible.
By the way, I don't believe that some of the people I listed existed. Krishna and Lao Tzu, for sure. Buddha, maybe. So you shouldn't be so sure of yourself here, either. It's pretty certain that Lao Tzu wasn't an actual person who wrote the Tao Te Ching, but mythology ascribes this writing to him.
With Jesus, we don't even have that. He didn't write anything. We just have stories, myths, written down many years after the fact.
Posted by: Brian | July 07, 2008 at 02:51 PM
C,
How do you know Mohammed and company taught untrue doctrines while Jesus taught the true doctrine? If you are honest with yourself, you will know that it is because of your cultural conditioning that you believe this. There are muslims who would say the same thing about Mohammed you say about Christ. And btw, I am not an atheist. Lastly, Brian's point about positive proof is right. Why would you base your entire reality and hope for salvation on something you can't prove? On a fantasy that has been handed down for generations? Try dropping the whole thing tomorrow, just as an experiment. You'll be fine, I promise.
Posted by: Adam | July 07, 2008 at 03:22 PM