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February 17, 2007


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As a former satangi (RSSB follower)I just want to say, well said Catherine, well said.


Along the same line, most folks enter the Path believing that the guru derives his power and authority from his personal relationship with God, and as such is qualified to be a living representative of God here on earth.

But, who really knows the guru enough to verify this channel of authority? Certainly not his disciples.

IMO, this concept of guru authority is twisted. The guru doesn't get his authority from God as most think but from those (his disciples) who believe that he does. They "buy" the belief system the guru sells and, through this approval, gives him authority over their lives. So as long as the guru can continue to sell his system, the game continues.

Now, since mankind clings to religion and gurus for safety's sake (fear of the unknown), it is unlikely that this game will end any time soon.


To Brian (as well as readers),

Your correspondent Catherine shared one of the best and most insightful yet informal essays on Sant Mat and Radha Soami Mat that I have ever read. It just about says it all.

Those satsangis who still remain within the RS fold and defend it, and yet wonder why it is that some of us others have exited from RS and criticise it, will find many of the answers and reasons why in this article.

The other commenters on this site who are obviously uncomfortable about the candor and sharpness of my style, and about my criticisms of Sant Mat & RS and those who blindly defend it, will also find the answers and reasons in this article.

To Catherine & Brian - Excellent and moving personal account, thanks.

To Tao - what about those who blindly *criticise* RS?

sorry, I know I've had my fair share of writing for today on this group, but I have a question for Catherine or any others who may know the answer.

Catherine, are you saying there was mitti seva to change the course of the Beas river? I was unaware of this!

This really means something to me, as I was always amazed, almost disbelieving, at how much the river had moved from near the satsang ghar, creating much more land for RSSB to use.

I was told at Beas that the river changed it's course after Jaimal (or Sawan) had tapped the bank of the river with their walking stick (because a disciple had commented on land becoming scarce)!!!

This was one of those ones that seemed like an almost genuine 'miracle' to me! I never *fully* believed it was a miracle even as a beleiver, as I don't understand the science of geology very well, but still considered it at least synchronicitous.

Oh, the naivety and irony! :o)

Hi Manjit

Enter Google: Radha Soami Beas Land
View the first two entries written June 2006 by The Sikh Times.


[from Brian: here are the links Catherine is referring to, which I've added to the post.]

Wow, thanks Catherine.

Did you see this particular mitti/dam seva being done yourself? I only ask because I am aware that followers of the Sikh religion have made made many untrue claims about RSSB dera for a fact? This has gone on for 60 years plus!

Basically, I'm asking is there any proof of this anywhere? Don't get me wrong, I would take your word for it, if you say you know it for a fact? BUT, I wouldn't believe it just from the 2 news articles I have just read, as even they say 'allegations'.

Anyways, thanks.

Genuinely Interested :o)

Tao, I agree. Catherine's article is one of the best and well-informed I've read to date.

Her comment regarding the diversion of the Beas river to acquire more land is very distressing...and criminal.

BTW, if you ever want to read an "insider's" view of RSSB, check out the posts by Waking Now over at the ex site. Temp posted a series of them a few months ago.

Hi Manjit

Whether the Beas River course was changed through natural, mechanical or miraculous means, the Dera has claimed the latter which means they claim responsibility. The people on the other side of the river would consider it to have been a miracle from the dark side surely!

I have not seen mitti seva at the Beas River(only on film and photo) and also have not paid enough attention to remember whether there were weirs or dams across the Beas.


Where do you get the idea that someone doth "blindly criticise RS"?

Just who do you think is "blind" about RS in this blog forum?

I am certainly not, nor is Brian, nor is Catherine.

So just who is that is "blind" about RS?

Being in India gives you a closer perspective to what goes on the ground. Though, I am no one to question Catherine on her choices in terms of Guru or the Path to follow I can certainly speak about some of the facts she has stated.

I have off and on dabbled with the path and even been to the Dera a few times since my childhood. The last visit was sometime in the year 2000 (when I was posted in a city close the Dera).

I have seen the mitti seva happen and can tell you clearly that the mitti seva was not to divert the route of the river (which I do not think is as easy as you make it sound). The seva was about flattening uneven land. Removing mud from areas close to the river and flattening the large uneven areas in the old / historic dera. This has created two distinct levels in the topography of the land. Away from the river it is higher and then suddenly drops into a river level flat land. In any case the way it was done it should have brought the river closer.

It is also clearly understood that the land vacated by the river is claimed (for cultivation only) by the farmers adjacent to it. In this case it was the Dera that was adjacent to it. There is no building activity that happens on that land. It was being used only for cultivation (till I saw it last).

On the issue of magic and tapping with the stick etc., - not sure. I have read different accounts in literature but this is not so important. The important part is the perspective of farmers working on the other side. They have lost out in the ‘natural’ movement of the river. At the same time farmers on 'this' side have gained along the length of the river. What about them. Life is unfair!

Protests and placard bearing protestors in India are a dime a dozen. Though there have been no notable protests that I have heard of, but it is not too big a deal to gather a few hundred people and protest against anyone. This includes litigation and filing cases in courts, petitioning the government and off late raising a hue and cry in the media. Remember there are too many people in India and a lot of them with nothing better to do.

On the merits of the path, as stated, I am no one to judge. It was your decision to board the bus and it’s yours to leave. I have just tried to state what I saw during the period of association with the path.

Thanks for putting things straight. Mitti Seva and building dams and weirs into the Beas River are two different things. So the farmers are refering to dams and weirs used for diverting the river for the purposes of reclaiming land. The farmers on the other side would have to prove that the latter has indeed happened ie: RSSB would have to intentionally have built structures into the Beas and as you've mentioned the farmers would have no case against the miraculous and the natural. It is a large river to divert. In India, the farmers even if they could prove it, may not have a leg to stand on. In South Africa, land and the rights of the poor are a big deal. With proof, litigation would be in full swing and there would be compensation. The other land point in the Sikh Times was that the Dera Land may belong legally to someone else. In Agra, I believe that there is also a Santmat land dispute that has gone on for decades.

A very interesting post by Catherine, who has hit the nail on the head on so many points.

It really makes me SICK more than sad to hear the accounts of how so many good hearted peoples earnest desire to seek the truth to tread on a path that can cause so much misery in experience, only to find that it was all a sham!

I have been reading up so much this past week or so in forums and web related articles, that I now accept my gut feeling of this RSSB path being a complete farce is the ONLY Truth, this is in addition to being accustomed to the RSSB teachings through people in my life over around 20 years.

I could never imagine that this RSSB path could fool so many people, and how it has become so widespread especially amongst westerners in the states. It really has been interesting to read the voice of so many ex-ers on the web, something I never even knew existed.

Every human being is great, and I believe every human being has a soul, and that this soul does seek by nature, to be salvated, especially when we have such a dog eat dog world, our soul calls out for love, truth and guidance from the one who created us.

Why do so many souls go in search of salvation? The worlds full of souls that strive for salvation, and will forever continue. Is this nature? I belive so. But how do find this peace and satisfaction that our hearts reap out for. This is where our search begins, and many will stumble. If there is a God, then the hearts which he created us with can call out to Him, and should only to Him, if he is within, then i`m sure he can hear the call within our hearts.

I`ve always been had by nature a total rebellion to worship anything that imitates God, or claims to be a God. Believe in the Creator not in the creation. As soon as one takes this title upon themself, there can be nothing left but ruins. A true guide must only be a guide not the goal.

A faith may have a right to be submissive to, in order to connect ones loyality, if its deserving, but not at the sacrifice of ones logical reasoning, because this is a God given gift to us humans, to reason.

I have read many articles which quite eloquently deciphers the lineage of the RSSB path, which is the cause of much doubt and speculation. I can`t but understand as to why a stop is put on the Swami ji, as if he was the beginning of the salvation. I would more dwelve into the further rrots and totally find try to substantiate the root lineage from where all this Guru business starts from, which takes me to Nanak. And this is where the light should be shed, this is where ones reasoning should begin.

India a land of hindu mystics and sages is enough for one to wander all his life. Why then did he Nanak spend many of his years in the company of a muslim associate to have the need to travel around the arabian peninsula, to sit amongst revered sufi mystics? Wasn`t God WITHIN?

It was here and from my personal analogy the exact point from where this Guru path initiated, as it broke away from the traditional hindu beliefs of many god headed forms of idol worship, and was integrated with the islamic teachings of ONE divine God. The sufi`s have a practice of Guru - deciple of their own, but far from impose any form of Sheikh (guru) is God concept, many practices of the Guru-deciple are thus sufi orientated, and they have been incorporated with hinduism to form the very farce cults of today that breed followers world wide.

I have read some sufi books, and they also have spiritual levels, through meditation one can advance spiritually to attain closeness and love of the creator. There is one level called `wahdatu`l wujud`, where one PERCEIVES everything to be one with God, and God in everything, and a stage in which many have gone astray especially with the famous dialogues from the ones who quote teh infamous ` We are the one drop, that merges back in the ocean and becomes ONE...` And so vegetarian lifestyle kicks in that they are life and all Gods creation, and the incarnation..etc

Yes everything on a level can be viewed from this angle, and its so obvious when one is in such a mystical sphere and you can see life in everything eminating from God. What else should you see? God created everything and nothing would be in existance without Him, be it a flower, animal, stone, tree. It continues in the sufi mysticism that it is a stage that one may drift off and get lost in the mystical experience, and only through the guidance of a true saint can one continue the of the spirtiual path which are much higher!

How deluded is one to think you are part of God, you are only a creation of God, we are the created beings that God created.

Why does God need us to be part of Him? He created us and He is Him, and we are us, get over it, thinking you are to be merged as ONE in this blissfull experience.

You never see in the Hindu films or books,or any idol of Ram Vishnu Shiva etc.. with a beard or a turban, so where , they where clean shaved! has this also been stolen from the teachings of the sufi`s ?

Well I could go on... and on.... but these are only my views.

Nevertheless, the web with all its articles and forums, proves one thing, that Humans are wonderful, and to see so many people striving for some kind of spiritual path, just goes to show from one point of view the love, sincerity, devotion someone is willing to give in search of the truth. Also its goes to show that many people are out there that are good upright people, who aren`t dim, but just wish to be told the truth without any deceit. Many may be naive, but we all are maybe at times doesnt belittle us, just more apparent when scrupulous frauds out are out there making a living mockery of those souls in search of the truth.

There may have been a time when the East looked up to the West ( they still do ), and many a battering did they pay for it, is this the karma now for the west at the hands of the east? lol. Wake up guy`s, there are great wonderful Eastern people, but they have just as many lowlife ingrained cultures and traditions that we have, and now are coming to light.

The best worship is to be honest, be good to yourself and your neighbours and families if you have nothing else, but this doesn`t mean you shouldn`t tie your camel.

The world is full of good and bad, misery and happiness, its been going on for centuries, doesnt mean we close our eyes. I was told a tale once:

A pigeon was there enjoying its life, pecking here pecking there, and noticed a big eyed cat staring at it from afar. So what did it do, it closed its eyes and said, wow fab I cant see it now, its gone! What could happen to that cat? the mind wonders!

God Bless



land rights are a big issues in India as well. being the most populous democracy anything with a potential of getting votes is an issue and many political parties have made a fortune on such platforms. the point i was trying to make was that there is no problem regarding land, its ownership and the course of the river. there have never been any claimants to the land and the rivers flowing from India to Pakistan are governed by the Indus Water Treaty and there is not much that can be done. The only dam on the river has been built by the government and has been built on higher terrain.

and why quote from the Sikh Times off all the places. what is the credibility of the Sikh Times? any day i would trust RSSB lit over it. the less said about Sikh politics the better.

these are the facts as I have known and understood them.

Thank you both Catherine and Shalini for clarifying. It seems I may have been a little premature in accepting that Beas had intentionally built dams or done mitti seva to alter the flow of the Beas river!



How many ex-ers have you seen on the web site? I am pretty sure one can count the numbers of these "ex-ers" (vs. 2 million odd followers) on fingers. The numbers would speak for itself. These ex-ers really need to rethink in the first place - (1) what brought them to Santmat and they really need to ask themselves a question (2) Were they following the teaching without compromise? I hear most of them whinning about 2.5 hours of daily meditation! This tells me that certainly, they were compromising on the first three pre-reqisites as well and then were expecting results!!

I know for a fact that there are many in US alone who hear the sound and have seen the sun, moon and the stars and are pretty much currently alive and living and breathing. But then you can't expect them to come out and blow a trumpit of the same! I know these ex-ers would call them 'deluded'.

It is like asking the IT system administrator of a high-tech company to come out and announce his/her passwords to the public! or Asking previledged employees of Pepsi/ Coke to come out to public and open/reveal the 'secret' concentrate formula!!

It is for these reasons those you expereince, they hide and preserve the treasure within themselves. The way you digest tasty food for yourself and if you cannot digest either you have heart burn or acidity or wometing! One may want to ask other intellectual questions like - Do you share your email login password with others? Do you tell ATM card PIN to any and every one you come across? If the answer is 'no' then similarly one must understand why these who 'see and hear' protect their treasure!!

To me these ex-ers are losers and cowards and have turned their backs as they are not able to live up to the 'high standards' of 'Santmat Way of Life'. They really need to 'shut up' and not confuse honest seekers like yourself. The ex-ers need revisit their lives, get their priorities right and in-order and rethink - what is it that they were not doing right that they inspite of 20-30 odd years did not experience any results!


Your comments about the river bank movements at Dera, Beas are mistaken. When riverine lands are reclaimed, the flood plains of the river get constricted and the flow gets redirected to the other bank causing greater erosion and scouring. The river channel movements cannot then be called natural and therefore your comment about 'life being unfair' for some villagers appears crass.

You give the impression of being greatly prejudiced against your own Indian background, with phrases such as 'protests are a dime a dozen', 'too many people in India and nothing better to do', 'the less said about sikh politics the better'.

Perhaps, if you interacted more with people outside your family, satsangi circle, you will gain a better understanding of the humanity that exists amongst individuals everywhere.


You appear to equate truth with numbers, which is unrealistic.

Regarding your view of exers, well, it's bullshit, plain and simple! Honestly, you have no clue whatsover. And, IMO, your response only shows how naive and spiritually immature you really are.

I know folks who had dedicated their hearts and souls to Sant Mat for up to 30 years, dilligently following the vows and meditating each and every day.

So, you have no idea what kind of courage it takes to walk away from something you had invested in for so long. Or, how scary it feels to follow one's heart when it's in opposition to the RS party line.

Then, there are the questions and doubts that infiltrate one's mind, along with the spiritual "uncertainty" that follows the departure. It's frightening as hell and requires immense courage and fortitude.

The reasons folks leave are varied but I have discovered a few common characteristic of what follows for many after a period of readustment.

1) A growing appreciation for life and the beauty that exists within this wonderful physical creation.

2) A continuation of the spiritual journey. And, BTW, Sant Mat has no copyright on God.

3) A surge in creativity; For me, I started a whole new career in a subject I had enormous interest in since my college days.

4) A feel of gratefulness for being an "average joe"; no need to be a special "marked" anything. Blessings are universal and a guru is no prerequisite for them.

So, my suggestion, Paul, is that you get more information before making further "pop off" remarks about exers you have no idea about. The remarks only make you look VERY foolish.



In many posts of ex-ers, on this website and other forums, you do get the gist that these ex-ers were sincere and had gave all they could to live up to the rules of RSSB. But were dissolusioned when the practices of the Guru were not up to scratch, and had to kind of step back and think WO! whats going on here! therefore having to rethink painstakingly as to whether the path was as valid to follow as it was made out to be.
I have the perception , that things like,
Charans smuggling of goods.
Emotional blackmail of getting initiates to donate funds, and right off their wills to RSSB.
Authenticity of Sant mat lineage disputes.
If guru is appointed truly as enlightened or just passed down due to family tradition.
Changing of rules, like more emphasis of SEVA (being better than meditation), Guru is GOD is human form fullstop.
Accumuluation of mass wealth, land.
Privaleges aquired not befitting of a Guru
Political peerages
Favours for certain classes of people in preference of others not so advantaged.
Lies, deceit & contradictions.
Psycological brainwashing upon the initiate to such an extent that they are basically dead while living (not living in the real world), which may be perceived an achievement.
Practices of leaders an associates running the dera`s
Usurping of land (mitti seva)
Court battles
.....and on and on.
This is simply the reasoning by which one dedicated initiate may come to realise or so conclude the falsehood of such a path.
I personally know initiates, and followers, who just seem to rant on and on, showing hatred and so venomous towards humans of other faiths. I question them, I thought you were supposed to be spiritual, isnt that kind of to be loving, isn`t your religion suppose to have love for all humanity, but you internally have so much hatred, why? They rant on about how all other faiths are man made, a common quote, but wasnt it a man who started the rssb or was a donkey? (dont mean to offend, just a sarki level of reasoning). All religions have changed, but this is not a religion and so pure a direct connection to God. When you question them regards to the authenticity and how all this came to start, when and where... no answers... Erm Jesus was a master...Rumi was a master...... yes but they so called get their authenticity from their religious scriptures, where did yours... is is sikhism...is it hinduism.... NO NO NO, we are ALL ONE! There is only one God! and off they go round and round with claptrap answers.
I read a dialgoue somewhere where Charan was asked regarding the dinosaurs, `Erm...erm.....forget that worry about now` or something to the effect of I aint a clue to put it plainly.
But I do ask, if Jesus came as prophesied in the bible for his second coming, would you follow Jesus and leave the Guru... would they have the same beliefs... what if Jesus pointed that RSSB was false... who would you follow? Just hypothetic reasoning maybe from a RSSB point of view, but something to think about maybe.
The thing is you get the followers of the scriptures Jews, christians, muslims who have lineage back to prophet Abraham, and believe in creation starting from Adam and Eve, one life one death, day of the judgement etc.. RSSB does not have this, and impossibly can.. they have lineage from the Hindu...sikhs a totally different set of core beliefs. How can one nit pik such faiths to justify the RSSB path.. its senseless. You see in the scriptures the prophets gave signs of the coming succesors to follow... have they ever pointed to the gurus... NOPE the successors were rooted historically in the Arab lands of that time.
How can one man just rise up and claim divinity sprung out the blue.... claiming nothing ever preached before?
How many years past between Jesus and Guru Nanak? Which of them professed and practiced explicity the teachings of the RSSB path... who? How many? or were all these people damed of forgot about, or worthless souls....

You state that such people wont come out and blow their trumpet... but then you say you know os so many? which trumpet did they blow?
I can agree with you on that point that if there is a sincere belief in a path, then loyality is needed, and adherence to rules are necessary if that is the only way. But the laws and rules must be authentic... the authenticity of the laws must be proven to be from a divine source.
In essence there must be a form of callibration to check the acclaimed divinity, or else any tom dick or hari can stand up to lay claim.
But then again if your getting somewhere... lets hear you blow your trumpet and guide us were we may be dissolusioned. Guide us to reason logically. This is an open discussion that can be done amicably, for those that can see the light, so dont leave us in the dark.


Really excellent piece, very thought provoking. Thanks


The "numbers" don't speak.

Ex-ers don't need to rethink anything. You are the one who needs to do so critical thinking.

No "exer" that I know is whinning about 2.5 hours of daily meditation.

Nor was anyone "compromising on the first three pre-reqisites as well and then were expecting results". So what is your idea of "results"?

Also there are thousands of satsangis who show no evidence of any "results". Where are the results that you speak of?

You wrote: "I know for a fact that there are many in US alone who hear the sound and have seen the sun, moon and the stars"

How do you know that? You don't know that. And even if they had, of what use or significance is some ephemeral and illusory internal mental or subtle plane phemomena? You obviously don't know squat about Self-realization.

Paul wrote: "It is like asking .... to come out to public and open/reveal the 'secret'..."

What "secret"? There is no such secret. You are the one who is deluded. Reality is not hidden. You just have no eyes to see yet.

Paul wrote: "It is for these reasons ... they hide and preserve the treasure within themselves."

That's a load of dogmatic baloney and denial.

Paul wrote: "...similarly one must understand why these who 'see and hear' protect their treasure"

Thats more pseudo-spiritual baloney.

Paul wrote: "...these ex-ers are losers and cowards and have turned their backs as they are not able to live up to the 'high standards' of 'Santmat Way of Life'."

That is an enormously stupid and ignorant load of BS. You know nothing about the spiritual sadhana of "exers". The truth is that you are the one who is the real coward and loser. You are lost in an illusion and fantasy, and you are too insecure and in denial to stand on your own.

You are the one who needs "to 'shut up' and not confuse" other truthseekers. Go peddle your pseudo-spiritual BS to those Sant mat cult goons who buy into it like yourself.

The ex-ers don't "need their priorities right"... they already have done that.

And last but not least, a true and effective spiritual teaching does not take anywhere near "20-30 odd years" to experience results.

In fact, an authentic teaching and practice such as Self-inquiry (atma-vichara) or dzogchen tantra (maha ati) brings results almost immediately or within a very short time.

People like you are spiritually ignorant and brain-washed, and you want to peddle your stupid Sant mat snake-oil dogma to other truth seekers like Sam. But fortunately Sam is much too wise for that kind of BS dogma. You aren't fooling anyone at this blog site, you are only just making a fool of yourself.

I really encourage you to truly open your mind and free yourself from the disempowering dogma and cult mentality that you are trapped in. I encourage you to awaken into Self-knowledge and realize and abide in and as your own true nature.

Paul, I am not an exer, and I like to look at this site to see what the exers are up to and because I have a lot of sympathy for their points of views. Very many of these people sincerly tried to live the teachings and it did not work out for them. I sometimes wonder if it is really working that well for me and I find myself continually adjusting my perspective on what it means to be a R.S. initiate. I have known many of these "exers" personally and do not in the least doubt their sincerity and dedication. Most of them have gone on to different paths that they find more satisfying to their sincere spiritual needs.

When you say:

"To me these ex-ers are losers and cowards and have turned their backs as they are not able to live up to the 'high standards' of 'Santmat Way of Life'."

You are not being fair to them. To quote from one of the R.S. holy books Sawan Singh said that if someone gives a path a sincere try and it does not prove to be successful they have every right to give it up and do something else. I don't remember the letter number but it is in Spiritual Gems. I don't think it is useful to the type of open minded discussion and tolerance Gurinder Singh and most members of this blog encourage by calling all exers "cowards" or "losers".

It is good to question and be open minded and Gurinder Singh would be the first to say this. I have observed that many of the exers are as fanatical and abrasive as the worst RS fundamentalist they deride and you often hear far more venting of frustration than anything of substance. Please recognize that it is very painful to believe and practice something most of your life and then decide it was just an illusion. Many of these people spent thousands of hours mediating and feel they got nothing for it. The natural reaction is to lash out.

I had a sense that you were feeling a bit threatend by the exers. Exers likewise feel threatened if thinking people still do the practice and are almost predictably venomous in their attacks on anyone who has anything good to say about it. Please respect the exers if you also wish to be respected; everyone is entitled to their point of view and should not be insulted for believing something you do not agree with. The intolerance I sometimes see on this blog is what religions wars are born of, which is true obscenity. This meditation practice is not for everyone and we need to respect that.

Howard, balanced view, imo.

It certainly appears it is largely Western disciples who express dissatisfaction with the gurus and RSSB. Here and on Radhasoamistudies site posters are a mere handful of RSSB's 2 million adherents. A few squeaky wheels out in the Western frontier. However, many (if not most) of the Western wheels that dislodged and rolled off did so without comment or complaint. They did not vent...rather they drifted off. Oddly, they are the silent majority of Western "exers". Also there are fewer and fewer non-Asian satsangis, even in the USA. I attended a satsang weeked not to long ago were more Asians than non-Asians. So non-Asians are becoming marginal, and (most) Asians seem to more at home with the whole thing.

My personal observations have led me to conclude that most that resigned with sound and fury did so for reasons other than not seeing the stars, suns and moons; or absorbing heavenly choirs of shabadic angels or some such thing.

Hint. Where there is complaint there is generally resentment, where there is resentment generally their is anger. Where there is anger there is somebody who did not get their way. Maybe they needed acceptance, tenderness, praise, thanks, recognition..and all they got was a kick in the arse. This kick woke them up, perhaps, to all the silly shit that is going on.

By saying this I am not implying that there are not good reasons to plan a different (spiritual) trip.


I apologize that it took me a while to respond. I apologize for using words like "cowards" and "losers" but I could not come up with a better word for those who give up trying upon unsuccessful attempts. I doubt whether the attempts were really sincere and ultimate, because to get the 'Ultimate' one has to put in 'the Ultimate Effort'. I, too have a lot of sympathy for the exers for whom the teachings did not work out in spite of their sinserity and dedication and I apologize again for not being fair by using the two words that I used. BTW I would love to read that letter that you mentioned from Spiritual Gems - please let me know the # if it is easily possible or feasible.

I agree with you that the intolerance that you see sometimes on this blog is what religious wars are born of. In spite of knowing this people like you and I still visit these blogs and post comments along with so many others. Especially, I see on this blog that whenever somebody posts any good or favorable words for Santmat or RSSB, too many exers write so intolerably especially Tao and few others in the previous post on "Santmat looks like a religion." I have my sympathies for Mr.X who got slandered by so many in the previous post.

I do agree with you that one must not make any comments that are intolerant or can upset anyone whatsoever. But again when I read so many of the comments from the exers, it appears that they all may be comepletely confused in alternative ways to explore spirituality and it seems that the sole purpose of this blog and the mission of exers is to confuse everyone else who stumbles on this blog!!

When I first stumbled on this blog I was completely confused in spite that the teachings were and still are working for me. I am also not an exer and even though the teachings are working for me, I got confused by reading various comments on this blog!

Mind likes to take the path of least resistance and its objective is it to keep one confused and away from the Reality. Mind sometimes gets confused even if the tachings are working out. So, when I got confused by reading the blog - I took a positive step - I worked harder in implementing and adopting the teachings - I meditated more and more and when I started to hear the sound within the doubts automatically got dispelled. So for myself I can say that the teachings are pretty much working out for me.

I'm an ex'er initiate of Charan Singh.
My point of view is that the 'ultimate' is already our current state. One problem I have with Sant Mat is that we are told the 'ultimate' is some place we have to get to...some wonderous spiritual region deep within us that we must earn through diligence, hard work and adhering strictly to vows. This is like struggling in quicksand where the more effort you make, the deeper you sink into separation and ignorance, or as I like to say, wrestling with thin air. Again, an analogy... the eye can't see itself no matter how hard it tries.

The 'ultimate' is what is looking. It's not a place somewhere else. No matter how exalted the region, expanded the perception, the number of, brahms, angels, hansas or 'dweeps', it is just phenomena, and the awareness within which it is perceived is as present here as it is in those other states.

So, it doesn't surprise me when after decades of practice chasing their tails trying to get where they already are, devotees report little progress. To where? To what? To whom?

It is said that even the lord of sach khand and the master will not go with the surat (soul) to the ultimate nameless region, anami. That is because there is no 'one' to go 'there'. Even sant mat says the ultimate region is nameless, without form or attributes, no shape or color. Indescribable.

But it has no where to hide. There is nothing mysterious about this here now which is everywhere and apart from which nothing else is. But it is not an object. We get fouled up when we try to objectivise pure non-objectivity which is all that really is and all that we are.

Tucson Bob,

I enjoyed reading your above comment. I'm still confused as to the defintion of, "pure non-objectivity." Are you referring to Pure Subjectivity? I have engaged in some Internet searches on the topic, however, I'm still not sure what the meaning is. If you could write another comment on the topic of, "pure non-objectivity," I would appreciate it.


Hey Roger,

Yeah, 'pure subjectivity' will do where words have limitations. Buddhists and others use the term 'void' sometimes. I just happen to like 'non-objectivity'...no object. You see, to some, pure subjectivity still conveys subject as some sort of object. But we are the absence of our presence and the absence of the presense of our absence. However, I don't mean to imply absolute nothingness. It is just that it is no thing that can be named or described. It's not an object of consciousness. It's timeless, spaceless Isness.

Try this: slam on the brakes right Now !!

I am well known to the Radha Soami group. I have questioned Gurinder Singh on many occasions and it is upsetting a lot of people. Many people don't like the fact that I question their master and take him on face value. He encourages everyone to question - so I do. So why do people get upset? Perhaps because they are narrow-minded and because radha soami has become a religion. Otherwise, why get upset? I have never said anything to offend anyone, as my questions are always in the spirit of truth. I was there at the national satsang on Saturday 5th May. I spoke about Ashtavakra who told king Janak (his disciple) that "If you think you are bound, then you are. If you think you are free, you are free. What you think becomes your truth. You are unbound, void of action and innocent. Your bondage is that you practive samadhi." I spoke on this and invited Gurinder's comments. He was free to take this in any direction he chose. He said that I had taken an isolated statement, and that ashtavakra practised meditation. This is simply not true. If anyone reads the Ashtavakra Gita, they will see that nothing has been taken out of context. Still, I can understand that the message is contrary to what Gurinder teaches, so he is entitled to disagree. Not a problem - we can have a civilised discussion in the spirit of truth. Or so I thought. He invited me to respond to his counter-arguments - and to reason with him - which I did. In the end he said that he was not interested in intellectual debate and said that i was welcome to carry on with my views. None of this is a problem - I love open debate. But - the followers became increasingly agitated with me. I have even received threats on previous occasions. Many people told me not to question him in that manner. "What manner?" I ask. I am simply putting over a different view - the non-dual view that we are already there - we just need to wake up and see the reality - there is no journey. The ironic thing is that Gurinder himself has this view - and he openly states it in satsang. The next day, the organisers went out of their way to inform the sangat that no quotes should be given from other scriptures and nobody should debate with Baba Ji. Obviously directed at me. The question is why? Why do the followers get so upset? It is becoming dangerously like a religion. it is almost like I have started a war - simply by asking a question.

Harjap wrote:

"Many people don't like the fact that I question their master and take him on face value. He encourages everyone to question - so I do. So why do people get upset?"

Because they are small-minded fanatical guru-cult followers.

"Perhaps because they are narrow-minded and because radha soami has become a religion. Otherwise, why get upset?"

Radha Soami has always been a quasi-religion. Such cults attract seekers who who become brain-washed and then reactive to anything or anyone which challenges their illusions.

"I was there at the national satsang on Saturday 5th May. I spoke about Ashtavakra who told king Janak (his disciple) that "If you think you are bound, then you are. If you think you are free, you are free. What you think becomes your truth. You are unbound, void of action and innocent. Your bondage is that you practive samadhi."

Good for you.

"He (Gurinder) said that I had taken an isolated statement, and that ashtavakra practised meditation. This is simply not true. If anyone reads the Ashtavakra Gita, they will see that nothing has been taken out of context."

You are quite right. The Ashtavakra Gita does not advocate meditation at all. Gurinder doesn't know what he is talking about. He is simply a lame bullshitter.

"I can understand that the message is contrary to what Gurinder teaches, so he is entitled to disagree."

But what was he disagreeing about? His statement was entirely incorrect in the very first place.

"In the end he said that he was not interested in intellectual debate..."

Typical evasiveness. Gurinder is obviously a hypocrite. He pretends to encourage critcal thinking, but when someone does actually engage in critical thinking, he evades all further discussion. Therefore as far as being a guru, he is a obviously a fraud.

"But - the followers became increasingly agitated with me. I have even received threats on previous occasions. Many people told me not to question him in that manner."

Then tell them to go kiss Gurinders ass some more. Also tell them that you have a right to your free speech. If they try to threaten you, then threaten them back with a lawsuit.

"I am simply putting over a different view - the non-dual view that we are already there - we just need to wake up and see the reality - there is no journey."

Exactly... and good for you.

"The ironic thing is that Gurinder himself has this view - and he openly states it in satsang."

No he doesn't. I disagree. He does not hold that view because if he did, he would not continue in his RS satsang charade.

"The next day, the organisers went out of their way to inform the sangat that no quotes should be given .... and nobody should debate with Baba Ji."

Typical RS suppressive and facist authoritarian tactics.

"Why do the followers get so upset?"

Because they are stupid and brain-washed, and are full of crap.

"....it is almost like I have started a war - simply by asking a question."

No, asking honest questions does not make a conflict. It is those RS satsangis who are reacting with anger, resentment, and suppression who are creating "war".

Dear Harjap:
I was involved with Sant Mat Beas for many years. Now, I find it amazing that I was associated with this group for so long and blindly accepted their dogma. This is a mind control cult, make no mistake about it, perhaps not lethal like a Jim Jones cult, but dangerous in that a lifetime can be spent with them chasing an illusion. Naturally, anything that rocks their boat a little bit like some of your questions is going to be resented and met with resistance and sometimes hostility. Some of them will just smugly dismiss you as ignorant. Others in the group will pity your inability to see the light and try to help you. But don't worry. You are correct. There is no journey to what we already are.


No seriously....OHHHH MYYY GOD. Please excuse me whilst I pick myself up off the floor...

HARJAP, I'm Manjit, the guy you met around A's house in Hounslow about 4-5 years ago...remember me? You passed on that enlightenment 'experience' to me? We discussed various things for about 6 hours, and I also attended a RS satsang of yours and went around your house a week or so later?

I lost your tel no when I lost my mob phone several years ago. Could you please email me on [email protected], and either leave your tel no, or I can pass you mine?

WOW! There is SOOO much I'd like to talk to you about brother! I'm truely happy to hear/read your voice here! Please do email me privately....

Damn, I guess I missed the national satsang? Can you believe nobody mentioned it online anywhere! Not that I'm sure I would have bothered to go anyway!

Just for the record Harjap, I attended the nat satsang was it 2-3 years ago, where you managed to get to the mic on every day! How did you manage that?? I queued every day but hardly even came close to the front? Hey, I was primed on those occassions to really rip through the RS theological non-sense, but alas....

Anyway, for the record, during your conversation with Gurinder, I for one noticed he more or less agreed with you completely, and that he fairly clearly implied that he couldn't say it openly to the rest of the sangat as they wouldn't be able to understand, and that it may cause them more harm than good to openly reveal a more Chandian view of RS. In fact, even before your Q&A, I felt the entire gist of his English satsang was along those lines. I for the life of me couldn't work out how that particular satsang could have been properly understood by the 'believers', and it seemed more or less directed at those of a more non-dual or even sceptical bent of mind?

Didn't Gurinder at one point say, you may be right, but 'don't spoil it for the others'??

Anyway, I have heard/discussed with regular satsangis discussing your Q&A with GSD, and I was astounded to see that they did not hear or understand a single word of your discussion! All they heard was some man being mistaken/egotistical in front of the 'Great Satguru'.

Alas, I think there is no help for them!

Anyways, Harjap, please do email me....

Sorry, now that the shock of seeing you (Harjap) here has almost passed, there is one question that needs asking..

Don't take quotes from other scriptures? Huh? Sorry, am I mistaken or is this the organisation that is BASED UPON taking selective quotes from scriptures?? An organisation that begins each satsang by quoting from a scripture?

To say you cannot question Gurinder based on quotes from scriptures is completely and utterly hypocritical and smacks of disingenuousness. What's good for the goose does not seem good for the gander? Atrocious.

And, whilst we're at it, I'll pass my personal subjective impression of Gurinder, which in fact is backed up by his own statements.

He is not particularly knowledgeable about mystical & yogic teachings. He is most definitely conceptually BOUND, and seems to not possess enough spontaneaty to transcend those bounds with a natural or genuine inner knowledge that is not bound by identification with concepts....if you see what I mean. (It's not about book knowledge, but about the knowledge which spontaneously arises with 'spiritual' liberation).

He also seems to have a few 'tricks' to deflect questions he cannot answer (as he has himself admitted btw). One of these is the oft-repeated 'you have taken this quote out of context. Show me the entire context' (knowing that most Q&A'rs don't happen to carry huge spiritual scriptures on their person). There has been MANY MANY times I have hears GSD say this, when I have known for sure thatthe questioners context was 100% correct, which mildly confused & troubled me (as a true believer)

Perhaps Gurinder should apply this contextualisation of quotes to the entire erroneous misuse of 'Sants' writings as confirmation of the watered down RS meditation system we have today?

It's sad to see so many people Guru bashing using trivia as ammunition. If you don't agree or have no connection, just move the hell onto something which floats your boat. Most of the arguments are based on a sheer lack of knowledge. If you want to argue please do it from an informed position. None of you are giving a better solution to life, instead you air your views liberally. It's as if you are obsessed with being heard.

Matt, when someone takes the time to read a blog post, and then leave a comment for other blog visitors to see, do you think it is reasonable for that person to criticize others for an obsession with being heard?

Isn't this what human communications and relationships are all about? Hearing and being heard.

If you disagree with something specific that has been said, please share your objections. But to generally object to people sharing their viewpoints -- that doesn't make sense to me, especially since you've just shared your own viewpoint in the comment above.

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