Sant Mat looks like a religion

Sam emailed me today from the United Kingdom. He has an interesting perspective on Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), looking as he does from the outside rather than as a true believer.

Myself, I’m sort of in the middle. I used to be a true believer and so can’t say that I’m able to view Sant Mat and RSSB from as detached a position as Sam can. So I found his ideas interesting. He left them as a comment to a post, which I’ve copied (and mildly edited) below.

He makes some excellent points. Even in the days when I did little critical questioning of Sant Mat, I wondered why this spiritual-mystical path that came down so hard on the foibles of traditional religions had so many practices that seemed decidedly religious.

A “church” leader and hierarchy. Sunday “sermons.” Chanting of “hymns.” Designated “preachers.” Approved “holy books.” Articles of faith that comprised a “theology.”

If something waddles and has webbed feet, yet quacks “I’m not a duck,” I’m more inclined to trust what my senses tell me than the verbal denial. Sam points out the truth: that RSSB and Sant Mat are firmly rooted in the Sikh, Hindu, and Muslim religious traditions of northern India.

Claims of being a universal spiritual science to a large extent are belied by this firm connection to religious teachings of a particular place and time. This by itself doesn’t make Sant Mat true or false; it just is something to be considered.

Here’s Sam's message:

Hi, I am familiar with sant mat as I have a friend who is a follower of this path. I find it a bit mind boggling but am open to hear all your views, which are very interesting. My friend can’t usually answer all my questions, and usually gets in a rut and starts to get agitated and angry. I can’t see why, but it does throw most of the characteristics one is suppose to adhere to on this path out of the window.

Firstly I would like to know that in this discussion a name has been mentioned: “Faqir Chand.” Is he based in the UK and supposed to be some type of head or authority based near the southern centre Haynes? [A Radha Soami Satsang Beas center in England] If so I know of him too, or is this another based somewhere else?

[Note from Brian: Sam, Faqir Chand died in 1981. He’s been called the “unknowing sage” because even though many considered him a guru, he openly admitted that he didn’t possess divine powers. More info. about him can be found here, here, and here.]

I like to hear critics’ views of this path as it helps in understanding and analysing this path without being biased and deciding whether this spiritual way is a true light to salvation and not some farce, that is dictated with blind followers, unable to rationalize with basic logic, and leaders who may be encompassed by some deceitful gain of power or money.

I have read the posts on peeing, which I find quite absurd, as one should be freely able to attend to one’s call of nature without being labeled or drawn attention to by sevadars [volunteers]. This should be brought to the attention of, with sevadars being most helpful for such that are in need.

I've also read another post in which one cannot take photos of the master, and of the incident in which a photographer was forced to hand over his film! Why are they allowed to take his photo? For security? None of his photos or dialogues are to be recorded? Why?

This is strange when you see many satsang devotees with huge full size images in every room of their houses! Why are these photos allowed? And they are full blown clear professional works of art! Do the masters’ photos have to be certified before they get released?

Then why do devotees have these photos hung everywhere? I thought this spiritual path was devoid of any form of idolizing. Be it a picture, clay statue or in whatever image form is this not an open avenue to idolize, and to start revering? If one says we do not idolize these, the masters’ photos, then what is the purpose of these images?

This brings me to another point in that I see this path orientated towards sikhism, with a bit of hinduism / christianity and islam all in one.

I thought that this path was supposed to be void of religious symbols and outward appearance. In a few books I have read it criticizes other faiths that have outward appearances and makes the note that this is pointless and that god must be found within, and is free from all such forms of religious expressions, that we are all the same and not in the need thereof, and we should pursue internal realisation to rid ourselves of this.

I just cannot then comprehend that why does the master and previous masters adhere to external symbols of the turban, beard, which are expressions of the sikh faith. Ok, we are not asked to follow suit but then I believe a master should be a perfect example of his teachings. Is this not contrary to the teachings? Or is this to lure devotees under a banner of no religion, but really its sikhism of another form? I would like to know why is this necessary at all?

Then there is the slogan “all religions are man made”, as if to say this is not a religion, it is a spiritual path. I see this just as a meddling with words that hold no weight. I hear you can be of any faith and don't have to change to be on this path, but the underlying factor in most beliefs of faiths is that you do have to change, and you have to change some fundamental cores of one's religion to accommodate this spiritual path, which would class one as a heretic and out of bounds of one’s prior beliefs.

So what is religion?
What is the definition of religion?
Isn't religion a set of rules/laws with values that ones adheres to, maybe performing some rituals in order to achieve salvation?

If you have a set of rules/laws, say in the torah/bible/quran, that say you must do this and that, and not do this and that, with respective rituals in each of their temples of worship, is this the definition therefore of a religion?

Then what of the rules/laws that we have to abide by in the sant mat path, with rituals of meditation, doing service etc? If you look at it, it can be clearly classified as a religion or am I missing something?

Well these are a few points. I could go on and on. I don’t hope to offend anyone in the above and hope sincerely I haven’t, but would just like to be able to question and answer my natural reasoning.

Sam welcomes responses to his message. If you feel like it, comment away.

Comments

[Bob]

Essentially, I view Sant Mat as Sikh mysticism. And, yes, gurus have way too much power and authority.

Geez, any idea how many God-incarnates are walking around India as gurus? It must be staggering.

Over the course of the last 33 years, I have been involved directly with 3 Indian Yoga groups, including Sant Mat. All 3 believed that there guru was the guru of gurus; the highest level of God incarnate possible.

Well, yea, my guru is definitely the real deal; not so and so over there.

The whole Indian guru trip reeks bullshit big time.

[Tucson Bob]

I was involved with Sant Mat RSSB for the better part of three decades. The literature presents a pretty seductive picture of mystic transport in the guidance of the perfect master to regions of glory and light.

It is said once you are accepted into the master's fold, your release from the travails of karma and rebirth are virtually assured, one day, four lifetimes at most.

If you are in the right frame of mind, you might just accept that this could be true. You want it to be, and at this point your reasoning may become, shall we say, selective.

But in reality, there is nothing to support this belief but blind faith. How do you know the master is perfect? Does he have a perfect master certificate on his wall? How do you know Sach Khand is the highest region as the master says? Does God really want you to quit eating egg whites, meditate for 2.5 hrs per day and never ever take a sip of tequilla? Does this god exist?

Sam is right as far as I'm concerned. Sant Mat is a religion. I would call it a religious cult if the movement weren't so large. Followers diferentiate it from most faith based religions because supposedly you have a path with "scientific" procedures which will yield concrete results in this very life, master/god willing, of course.

But what if you aren't having ecstatic mystical experiences after following these scientific procedures for several decades? Doubts may creep in. At this point, someone will tell you that the path is like boring through a mountain. You are in darkness until suddenly you break through into the light on the other side. Keep at it brother. Your actions are bound to bear fruit, with master's grace, sooner or later. It may be that you'll have to wait until another life because your karmic burden is so heavy that it just isn't possible this time around.(It may be that there is nobody to get anywhere. But that's another story.)

There is always some esoteric explanation that eliminates logic and reason from the equation. There is no way to know if it is real until, if ever, you get to where it talks about. Even if an "advanced" satsangi were to tell you the master is the real deal and they daily hear peals of celestial thunder, you have no way of knowing if they are deluded or not.

This is really an absurd proposition to cash in all your chips on one blind bet. To what? To where? To whom?

[Sam]

Another point I would like to make is with regard to the use of quotations of implicit verses form historical religious figures, which are so much abused to verify the authenticity of the masters teachings.

Why are such verses or quotes used from such religious figures when their core faith is totally logically different to the teachings of RSSB.

For example, "In the beginning was the Word and the word was with god and the word was god..." This is an abused quotation attributed to Jesus, but from biblical scholars this is crystal clear to not be even be the true words of Jesus, but of some other figure (was called Alexander or something)!

Quotations from Jesus as a previous era of Masters is ridiculous, because he was a Jew, and a very strict adherent to the fundamentals of the Jewish faith, Jesus had stated in the bible that he had not come to create a new religion but to only fulfill the prophecy of his coming in previous scriptures. Jesus is stated by RSSB of being a master, so who was his master?

The faith of Jesus in tie with the scriptures was that you live ONCE, die ONCE and that you will be raised to be judged on the day of the judgement. This is totally contradictory to the teachings of RSSB and all that re-incarnation baloney, which I`m sorry to say but simply can`t comprehend one bit. So why aren't such related verses quoted by RSSB?

In the bible Jesus so called drove so many pigs to rid some mad lady of some omen, where is the masters justification for this? Killing animals?

Jesus was said to have fed the 5000, with a tray of of a few loaves of bread and some FISH, what's the RSSB have to say about his vegetarianism? I was told by one RSSB that this has been changed by the christians, and really he was a vegetarian, and that the fish were simply bread in the shape of fish! Can anyone accept that, or am I a bit dim?

There are so many quotes of Jesus, that are used to so called prove the teachings of RSSB masters, but how can one comprehend these as valid when the masters of RSSB only pick and chose the ones that suit and befit their teachings, and totally ignore the one that are contradictory. Any lame duck can do this with any religious quotes, and all religions have good teachings and uniform universal characteristics.

Then you get quotes from muslim mystics like Maulana Rumi, and Bullah Shah. I wonder where the list ends, but take Maulana Rumi, a renowned muslim mystic, whose quotations are nit picked in some of RSSB publications to verify their teachings again.

If you study maulana rumi`s lifestyle, you will find crystal clear proof fact that he was as well as being a great hisorical muslim sufi mystic that he was also meticulous to the practices and teaching of his faith islam. Which again is not vegetarian, and far from adopt re-incarnation like the jews and christians don't either.

So what do the RSSB say, oh them books you read are typical of mullas (muslim priests) that pervert the true way to god! So which books do they read? and by who?

I thought religion was man made according to RSSB, but continuous use of their quotations and verses are hereditary in the RSSB faith. I thought in the RSSB you couldnt find god in books, or religious books was a no go area, so why the hypocrisy?

When you hear from a previous reply to my original posting in re-incarnation, that you should keep continuing in meditation and if you don't reach the goal you may get a chance in the next life due the burden of karma's. Is this not a form of enslavement to the RSSB path. Just like the caste system of India.

Sam

[Bob]

Sam,

You make some excellent points.

I too have seen this "borrowing" of quotations to "prove" the legitimacy of the RSSB teachings.

They try and show that each and every past saint or holy man was an adherent of Shabd Yoga, which just ain't the case.

Regarding Jesus's guru, RSSB literature will claim it was John the Baptist. Now, that may have some validity, since according to the Bible (which I believe is not a reliable historical document on Jesus's life), Jesus did voluntarily go to John the Baptist to recieve baptism. And, it was at that moment that he had a pertinent spiritual awakening.

Now regarding Jesus as a vegetarian, RSSB looks to the Essene Gospel of Peace as a reliable source to prove this point. Personally, I find it hard to swallow, but then again, who really knows.

Reincarnation was accepted by some of the early church fathers, such as Origen during the third century; possible Greek influence. I'm not convinced one way or the other of what Jesus actually believed or taught on the subject. It sure would have been helpful if he had written a book or two!

Personally, reincarnation/karma makes a lot more sense to me than the "resurrection of the body" on the last day, final judgement and all that.

[Joe]

What a hatchet job Christains have done to the 4 books of the New Testament over the centuries! I'm talking gross mistranslations, mistakes made when pages were hand copied and passages "made-up" by scribes to advance their religious agendas.Burn the Bible

[Mr. X]

Everything in the material world can be looked at with at least two different perspective. So long as we live in the world of duality there will be different aspects to the same thing for different people. It is the same like glass being half full or half empty! I am an RSSB initiate and as far as I am concerned, Santmat is still a way of life for God realization and it will remain this way so long as the True Guru or Spiritual Teacher or Mystic or Perfect Living Master is alive. The moment the Guru departs from this plane without appointing a successor in Santmat lineage, no doubt, Santmant the very next day will turn into a religion.

Remember, mystics only come here to tell or teach us the way to enlightenment! But as soon as they leave or even when they are alive, we humans tend to give it the shape of a religion. It is easy to follow the external rituals and dogmas (bowing head to a building or picture or portrait or holy baths, burning essense sticks or candles, ringing bells or blowing conches or performing serves, or pilgimages)of the religion, but it is extremely difficult to follow a "way of life" for enlightment. On one hand it can be like walking on the sharp razor's edge while on the other hand it can be very easy to follow the instructions and adhere to the way of life and experience for onself. Only when you start to experience by being steadfast on the way of life that the doubts are dispelled and you realize that it is still very much a way of life and not a religion. However, if you visit Beas, you may see people's tendency of bowing to the beautiful building called Satsang Ghar or Nam Ghar i.e. trace of religious tendency and thats why Babaji has been saying if you start bowing head to the building I am going to tear it down. Saints and Mystics always try to take as away from such external ritual or dogma and teach us inner spiritual practice through meditation which is possible with the support of the "way of life that they prescribe" which includes (1) adhereing to lacto-vegetarian diet, (2) abstaining from alcohol and mind expanding drugs and (3) a clean moral life including your livlihood honestly and refraining from sex outside of the legal wedlock. Now, these pillars are the support and foundation of the 4th pillar of daily solitary meditation. Also, the first three ways of life and the fourth are inter-related and inter-dependent on each other. The firmer you are in living up to the first three the better the meditation is, which in turn helps you to stay stead fast on the first three.

Here are my 2 cents on whether Santmat is a religion or a way of life.

Also, please note that Baba ji comes from Sikh Religiion however I was and an still pretty much a Hindu - I live the Santmat way of life - but go to temples, gurudwars, churches. Recently when I was in U.K one of my Muslim friends invited me for Namaz and I was delighted to participate. A while in U.S. yet another Jewish friend and co-worker had invited for his son's Bar-Mitsua (I am sure I have misspelled it..please no offenses)

[Mr. X]

continuation of earlier post....

So I was again delighted to attend the Jewish ceremony. There is no restriction in Santmat way of life not vto isit other places of worships so long you don't compromise on the principles of way of life of Santmat.

Sam - you really have some good questions and good observations. I had these questions on my mind even the day before of my initiation and I actullay in a Q&A session the day before my initiation stood in front of Babaji and asked him How do I beleive that you are a true spiritual teacher? and can there be more than one true spiritual teachers on earth at the same time?

Now, I don't remember his replies but one thing I do remember very clearly that when you stand in front of the Master who's meant for you, you know it for yourself. Personally, I certainly felt the need for a Master and when my search took me in front of Babaji, each and every cell of my body knew that he was the teacher meant for me. So I can only suggest that one should do one's research independently and do what is best and not base one's decision on what people say or do!

Now, your friend may be a Santmat follower but it is still inappropriate on his/her part to get angry, agitated or get in a rut!
Remember school days not all students came 1st in the class and almost nobody scored 100% grades in all papers! I am not saying that I am 100% I am still struggling with my own temper, impatientience and anger and so on but now when I give into these forces I am aware that I am giving in but by the time the realisation comes I am too far in it that retrival becomes difficult sometimes. But as soon as those moments get over, I do a consious effort in working on them and do not hesitate in apologizing at all to anybody for that matter. On this note, I apologize on behalf of your friend, who is a follower of Santmat for his agitation and anger.

I do not know anything about Faqir Chand, so I can't comment on it at all. About power and money, the Master is a living example of a sevadar. He relentlessly works 24 hours a day and is the Best and Only sevadar and an example of utmost humility, courtesy and behaviour. Meetings are completely voluntary, there is no membership fee or mandatory donation or contribution. So, how can Guru be called crazy for money. Guru himself serves the sangat all 24 hours so how can he be power hungry. All other Sevadars are trainees under his guidance to become like him and the behaviour of sevadar in peeing and photo instance seems to be inappropriate. But again, who am I to judge!

About photos in the house, don't you display pictures of your beloved family members on the walls! Similarly some people like to put the pictures of their beloved Satguru on the walls in their homes but again it is inappropriate to bow down to the pictures or frames! Again, some may bow down to the picture - isn't it easy to bow head to a picture?? We always look for easy ways and short cuts!! It is easy to bow to a photo but extremely difficult to sit down and meditate.

No doubt the quotes in Santmat are from Sikhism, Christianity, ISlam and others but if you study any religion with an unbiased mind aren't they all talking about the same underlying Truth! It is we who see them differently based on our own pre-conditions and backgrounds.

The Masters are born in Sikh religion and they have honored and maintained the customs and traditions of their own religion, however they are not on a conversion mission and it is not mandatory for followers of Santmat to adhere or change to certain garb.

Well, I am going to stop at this point I could go on writing but then again as I mentioned earlier one should do one's research independently and do what is best and not base one's decision on what people say or do!

[tao]

To Mr. X:

Comments regarding your two posts:

You wrote (in quotations):

"...we live in the world of duality..."

Duality is only the mind... "we" is duality. However, existence ("live") itself is not "in" or of the mind.

"I am an RSSB initiate and as far as I am concerned, Santmat is still a way of life for God realization..."

But that is only your opinion and wishful thinking. The reaity is that there is no evidence at all to indicate that this is true. Among the adherents and practitioners of Santmat, just where are the God-realized that you are speaking of?

"...and it will remain this way so long as the True Guru or Spiritual Teacher or Mystic or Perfect Living Master is alive."

Just what "True Guru" and "Perfect Living Master" are you referring to? There are none existing in any of the current branches of Santmat. Furthermore, even the notion that you put forth of a so-called "perfect living master" is simply a false and illusory myth.

"The moment the Guru departs from this plane without appointing a successor in Santmat lineage, no doubt, Santmant the very next day will turn into a religion."

The fact of the matter is that Santmat is already a religion. It has all the attributes of a religion, and its branches are religious guru-cults. Furthermore, "appointing" does not make a guru. A guru is a guru by dint of his or her realization and wisdom. A guru cannot be simply "appointed".

"mystics only come here to tell or teach us the way to enlightenment"

But apparently you fail to understand that they can only do that if they themselves are 'enlightened'.

"...it is extremely difficult to follow a "way of life" for enlightment."

"Enlightenment" is not a "way of life".

"Only when you start to experience by being steadfast on the way of life..."

Experience what??? Just what "experience" are you referring to? And how is this "experience" that you are speaking of, conditional on a particular "way of life"?

"Babaji has been saying if you start bowing head to the building I am going to tear it down."

That sounds pretty darn stupid and destructive. Only a petty tyrant and a control freak would think and say such ridiculous things. Who cares what other people do? Thats their business and their problem. People do all sorts of superstitious things in religion. The answer is that they simply need more wisdom, but they don't need being threatened.

"Saints and Mystics always try to take as away from such external ritual or dogma and teach us inner spiritual practice through meditation..."

Then why do these same so-called "Saints and Mystics" teach so much spiritual dogma and foster so much ritual?

"which is possible with the support of the "way of life that they prescribe" which includes........"

You would probably be better to go preach, proseltize, and defend your Santmat/RSSB dogma to those who are also believers in it like you are, instead of trying to convince people here who already know far more about it that you do.

==========================================

"There is no restriction in Santmat way of life ... so long you don't compromise on the principles of way of life of Santmat."

Who cares what "restriction" or "principles" there are? If that is your concern then fine for you, but others here are not in need of such restrictions or explanations.

"I actullay .... stood in front of Babaji and asked him How do I beleive that you are a true spiritual teacher?"

Its not about your beliefs at all. An authentic sage or sat-guru can be known and revealed by certain attributes and also by the truth of their teachings.

"when you stand in front of the Master who's meant for you, you know it for yourself."

The "Master" concept is a myth. It is also not about "who's meant for you". One is either a genuine sage/satguru, or not. There can be many and various teachers of spirituality, but a mere spiritual 'teacher' is not the same as an enlightened sage or true sat-guru.

"when my search took me in front of Babaji, each and every cell of my body knew that he was the teacher meant for me."

That may have been your feeling at the time due to your desire for a guru... but just because you were naively charmed does not make this so-called "Babaji" an authentic and genuine enlightened guru. And the fact of the matter is that he is not. He is simply the leader of a religious cult.

"one should do one's research independently and do what is best and not base one's decision on what people say or do"

So why don't you practice that? You have made a decision based upon mere appearance and feelings. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this "Babaji" as being an authentic sat-guru. In fact, there is much evidence to the contrary.

"I apologize on behalf of your friend, who is a follower of Santmat for his agitation and anger."

That is not surprising, as a great many of the followers and practitioners of Santmat and RSSB dogma show no signs of any spiritual growth or wisdom, even after years of meditation and satsang.

"I do not know anything about Faqir Chand"

Well being that you are a student of Santmat, you would be wise to learn about him and study his teachings.

"the Master is a living example of a sevadar. .... and is an example of utmost humility, courtesy and behaviour."

That is absolute rubbish propaganda. He is far from being humble or courteous. You are obviously extremely uninformed and living in a fantasy world. Do some research and you will find that he is not what you think.

"there is no membership fee or mandatory donation or contribution. So, how can Guru be called crazy for money."

That is also rubbish. The fact is that RSSB pressures satsangis to donate all the time. Those who do not donate money are frowned upon. Those who give large amounts of money are given extra-special priviledges, preference, and respect. When it comes to money, the RSSB and Gurinder are about as corrupt as they come.

"Guru himself serves the sangat all 24 hours so how can he be power hungry."

Thats a load of BS. He literally lives off the donations from satsangis. All his expenses are paid by donations. His expensive vacation properties are paid for by followers. He is a controlling vampire sucking off the boold of his disciples.

"All other Sevadars are trainees under his guidance to become like him"

Like him? ... God forbid !!!

"and the behaviour of sevadar in peeing and photo instance seems to be inappropriate. But again, who am I to judge"

The obvious truth here is that you are a disempowered individual who belongs to a cult and who has given up his own ability to engage in critical thinking.

"if you study any religion with an unbiased mind aren't they all talking about the same underlying Truth"?

No they are not. They are not talking about "Truth" at all. They are talking about different ideas and concepts.

The Masters ... they are not on a conversion mission..."

That is also incorrect. They are indeed attempting to convert seekers into the Santmat/RSSB way of thinking.

"one should do one's research independently and do what is best and not base one's decision on what people say or do!"

Then why don't you just practice what you preach? Why don't you go and actually do the research and don't be so gullible and believing in and blindly following a false guru and a religious cult.

[Howard]

I knew the last comments were from Tao even before seeing his name at the end. Somehow he is unable to maintain the kind, tolerant, and ratiional tone that permeated Mr. X's comments. I have observed that his comments often resemeble a fanatical diatribe rather than an attempt to address serious issues in a serious and civilized way. This blog is a great place for atheists, agnostics, believers, and even true believers to come together and discuss matters of faith and metaphysics. Attacking someone by saying they are "gullible" and calling a person's guru a "controlling vampire" do not serve the interests of this blog. Such things only bring the level of discouse to a very low level which causes people desiring serious discussion to remain at bay. I wish Tao would simply tell us why he is so bitter. What he says and why he says it would then be much more comprehensible.

In regard to Sam's comments about Sant Mat being a religion I think the points are well made. The only thing left out was the observation that there are now actual buildings called "centers" used for public worship. In addition, even though Sant Mat says it is fine to follow one's religion all the satsangs nationwide are held on Sunday morning at the exact time when church is held. I like to go to church but must choose between satsang and church so it seems that sant mat most certainly and quite conciously competes with christianity rather than embraces it by making me choose one or the other. I am choosing to go to church, though I would like to do both.

I do not think the early church would mind at all if RSSB or anyone else used Jesus' name to bolter a religious belief. This was expected in the early church. In the early church religious texts were undersood metaphorically, in addition to literally, because they were used to help the listeners understand metaphysical truths that could only be hinted at. This is one of the reasons why the earliest Greek texts are all different. The terrbile literalism found in present day fundamentalism is fairly new. See the work of the Jesus Seminar if you want to know more about this.

[sam]

Hi Tao,

Thankyou for commenting on my posting From your comments you seem to have some very critical views on the
RSSB way. Which makes me feel that you have some indepth knowledge that
maybe you could share with me so as to enable me to decide open
mindedly whether the RSSB is a farce or true. This is as I always seem to hear the one sided rssb views and would appreciate light shed on issues brushed away!
I mainly dwell into the authenticity of this spiritual way and is
this truely a divine belief, or should i say religion.
Its comes across to me as a some sort of cult if not a religion, and
am mindboggled to the hatred towards religions when this appears to be
in a nutshell of the same sort.
Who is this master, is he true or a fake / farce? Please compare the
present gurus character and the previous.
You stated
`There is no evidence whatsoever to support this "Babaji" as being an authentic sat-guru. In fact, there is much evidence to the contrary.`
Could you dwell and explain these contrary`s so to allow me to have my fair opinion.

I have read that it started off with the sikh gurus then from
somewhere around 1800`s a man called Shiv Dayal Seth the founder of satsang. His
master is so called indecisive, and this worries me. I see this as a
spiritual man sprung out of the blue claiming to have a divine route to
salvation. So can it not be possible for this man to be a fake,
imposter if we have no means by which to callibrate him?
What about prior to this Shiv how far back in time is the link. If
theres no link it worries me too. I just read on about quotes from Jesus
, Rumi, etc... who`s words are manipulated in verifying the rssb way.
When in fact the teachings and lifestyle is contrary to the teachings of
rssb, especially in core elements like Reincarnation and vegetarianism
which Jesus or Rumi did not even preach in any form (except in a previous comment that it was in the essene gospel of john, what on earth is this essene gospel, never heard of this in all my days!) , there are no
sayings in all their literature of such beliefs but they in fact believed
in one life one death and the judgement day, and ate meat. So why are
quotes to ones advantage picking and choosing in one manner.
I can`t comprehend why at all they are quoted. This rssb is totally
seen by me so -far as sikhism of a different form, a bit like the jehovah witness to
mainstream christianity.
One is told to shun laws/rules/books when rssb always quote from
them and have their own laws rituals labelled under spiriuality. Then rssb
are told to not adopt outward expressions of faith when in fact the
masters adhere to sikh expressions like turbans, beards etc why? isnt this
hypocrosy? Cant` ever seem to get a decent answer from any RSSB! whats
the use if these expressions if they are meaningless as told in the
books, confusing? Can someone explain this please?
Has any RSSB ever met a spiritually blessed rssb follower in that they saw
the light or this sound in all the years one has been a rssb follower?
If any followers of rssb have left this path or are thinking of so, then what have been the underlying factors?
Why are masters are revered to god incarnates, which i could never
accept?
Why is this shabd/nam/word such a secret, is this only for the
masters to keep a blind flock?
Can some expalin to as how one is initiated, what was this process, and what are the five
super charged words that you are to meditate on, and how are they
conveyed if they are not words?
Has any RSSB follower seen the light or heard this sound?
I like to use the reason and logic of the RSSB followers that are these religious followers of whatever faith, are brainwashed by the priests/mullas/pandits etc.. so I say lets utilize this logic in doing the acid test on the rssb way being reasonable logical and without any biased brainwashing.

Regards

Sam

[Tucson Bob]

I am an initiate of Charan Singh, predessesor to Gurinder Singh, the current master of RSSB.

Think about it. How can it be determined if someone is a perfect enlightened master who has the capability of helping you achieve spiritual liberation? Someone can tell you the master is bona-fide. How do they know? They could be deluded. The master can say he/she is bona-fide. How do you know they aren't deluded or lying? Your gut may tell you this is the real deal, but can you be certain of this? If you want to follow the person, it's a leap of faith pure and simple. This is OK, but one should understand that this is what they are doing.

It is different if you are considering, say, a martial arts master. You have objective criteria to judge his claim to mastership. You can observe this person slamming their head through a wall of concrete or single handedly warding off the Green Bay Packers.

A prospective spiritual master, vying for your allegiance, may behave and speak well which inspires confidence in them, or their followers and the group's literature may say they are exemplary. The master may even levitate or make magic dust appear, or they may sit on a dais surrounded by beautiful floral displays. But does this prove they are enlightened? Do any of these things have anything to do with enlightenment or the proof of its achievement?

Until you are enlightened (if there is such a thing) you have no way of knowing what it is or if someone else posseses this state because it is purely subjective. You'll know it only when you know it.

[tao]

Howard,

Briefly (as your ridiculous comment does not deserve much of a response), I have this to say to you regarding your skewed perceptions:

You wrote:

"Somehow he (tao) is unable to maintain the kind, tolerant, and ratiional tone that permeated Mr. X's comments. I have observed that his comments often resemeble a fanatical diatribe..."

I don't have to be tolerant of such irrational nonsese from "fanatical" dogma peddling guru-cult goonies like Mr X. If he is going to dish out that kind of crap, then he better be prepared for criticism. If you don't like it then tough darts. There was nothing uncivilized about my comments.

"Attacking someone by saying they are "gullible" and calling a person's guru a "controlling vampire" do not serve the interests of this blog."

Yes they do. And I am just telling it like it is. The fact of the matter is that that Mr X is a gullible guru-cult follower and his fraudulent guru is a kind of vampire.

"I wish Tao would simply tell us why he is so bitter."

I am not "bitter" at all. I am just calling it how I see it. I know far more about the RSSB than Mr X. does. I also could not care less about the RSSB and its dogma and phony guru.

People like Mr X are trapped in a myth and a lie, and need to be shocked into looking more into the truth of it, rather than the dogmatic beliefs and cult mind-control that they have bought into. The truth is not always comfortable at first, but it is always liberating.

Your foolish whining only betrays just how hung-up and ignorant you are yourself. If you would get beyond your ego, then you might actually learn something in this forum.

[tao]

Sam, I will have to get back to you at a later time, I promise. Today I have other pressing matters to attend to.

Tucson Bob, Very good comments. Your points are very well taken and shed real light upon the issues.

[Joe]

Howard,
Tao's just a nasty, old Troll who crawls out from his dark hiding place under a bridge to growl and snarl at unsuspecting folks every once in a while. Pay him no heed;he won't even use his real name.

[ander]

Confusing or fusing taoism with postmodernism and decontsructionism is one of the ways either really smart or really smartass individuals respond/ criticise other views( especially when they are in written form). A good example of healthy decontruction is this :

"Deconstructing Kofi Annan’s speech"
Mary Vallis, National Post
Published: Monday, December 11, 2006

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=10ca0437-fae3-4709-ad98-25bd2b5e5a45

Offcourse this works perfect when you are in politics. For mysticism, I think it doesnt.

Rumi says that the sufi are the children of of pre-existence. Trying to decontruct this would be futile. But no! lets split the hair and analyse everything.

Its like the polish joke; lost the keys in the house but look outside cause that's the only type searching that i was taught and know.

We see a flower, and instantly we point it, associate it, categorise it, place it, name it, compare it, prefer it, etc etc etc

[ander]

NY Sun
By THOMAS MEANEY
February 9, 2007

In "The Silence of the Lambs" (1991) Anthony Hopkins, in just 17 minutes of screen time, scared the hell out of a generation of moviegoers in his role as Dr. Hannibal Lecter. Dr. Lecter was evil incarnate — and all the more terrifying because he came in the form of an articulate, civilized psychiatrist turned unapologetic serial killer. Anyone inquiring as to how he got that way hit a brick wall: "Nothing happened to me," he tells Clarice Starling. "I happened. You can't reduce me to a set of influences."

And this is what scared the living hell out of millions of people?

"Nothing happened to me.I happened. You can't reduce me to a set of influences."

Why are we so similarly scared in 'just looking' at a flower?

[tao]

Joe,

Unfortunately for you, you are only exposing just how ignorant and stupid you are. And the funny thing is, if thats all you can come up with in the way of an intelligent comment, then no one is going to pay any heed to you.

My comments and critiques speak for themselves. Your comment only reveals just how shallow and dimwitted you are.

[Marcel Cairo]

Tao,

You're wrong about Joe's comment. Not only did I pay heed to it, but I found myself hooting and hollering with great mirth and laughter.

The fact is, as right as you may be in your comments about RSSB, you have an unpleasant and unfriendly demeanor that makes people want to steer clear of your energy. If only you could replace that venom with the kind of wit exhibited by Joe's comment, you might be as popular as John Stewart.

Now, I know right about now you are sharpening your sword and looking in my direction, but here is a good chance to "be witty, not shitty" - your new mantra.

C'mon, turn that corner with me, and let's spar with the verbal dexterity that would make that old, Strattfordian bard proud.

[Rosa]

Tao is a jerk.

He thinks he is so intelligent but he is just a petulant arrogant childish emotional wreck.

For someone who is so certain of his authority on particular subjects, he has an alarmingly intense need to defend himself against any criticism, real or imagined. I bit unstable i would say. And for someone who is so against "cults", his polemics are fanatical and venomous possesing no objectivity whatsoever.

TAO: Grow up, Jerk.

[Tucson Bob]

Tao doesn't beat around the bush, that's for sure, but I don't see anyone coming back with any good responses to his observations. All they can do is complain about his style and not deal with the substance. C'mon people. Toughen up and quit whining.

[tao]

Marcel,

Bro, I'm so glad you don't like my "demeanor"... but as for sparing with you, I'd much rather party hearty with you.

---------------------

Rosa,

Get a real life bitch.... and while you're at it, get an intellect that works too.

Usually I would be laughing at someone like you, but I tend to shy away from laughing at the mentally retarded.

[Joe]

Rosa,
I wish I could track down that sick, cowardly Troll Tao and horsewhip him for all the hateful comments he's posted. He's such a text-book example of an obnoxious internet troll as to almost be a risible parody of one!

[Joe]

Tao,
I thought it over and I OWE YOU AN APOLOGY BIG TIME-I'm sorry I wrote such mean, stupid things-I've been the biggest Troll on the internet AT Times! I have no right to criticize anyone but myself for such mean-spirited comments.
Joe

[tao]

Joe,

Don't worry about it dude. I generally don't take anything on the net too personally.

However, I do tend to point out or criticise what some people say (write), if and when they say stupid things. I feel that if people cannot handle being criticised for the some of the dogmatic nonsense that they post here, then I guess maybe they should just not post on a public blog forum.

If someone says stupid crap just because they don't like my observations and/or critiques, I usually either just ignore them or toss it right back.

There is a definite difference between my own objective criticisms of another's spiritual/religious preaching and dogma, and someone calling me a "jerk", "unstable", and "fanatical and venomous".

I am not fond of that game myself, but if someone is going to dish that kind of garbage out to me, then they may just get it right back in their face.

If someone posts what I consider to be dogmatic religious doctrine and beliefs, then they are opening themselves up to objective criticism. It's as simple as that.

But some people immaturely think that their beliefs and dogma is somehow special, holy, and sacrosanct, and is above such criticism. I am here to tell them that they are mistaken. I believe Brian takes the same view as well.

But also, this is Brian's blog and I generally like to respect that and avoid generating cross-static with other commenters.

However, its just that some comments are so excessively presumptous, that they beg for a retort or rebuttal. If such commenters can't handle that, then they should just be more careful about what they post.

Peace

[Rosa]

Tao

Regarding your comments :-

"Get a real life bitch" – Nice. very intelligent response to my insightful analysis of your pseudo-intelligence. clearly you are a very sophisticated being.

"Get an intellect that works" - again, a very mature response. This assessment you made of me is clearly based on the many and numerous posts I have made on this website. Obviously i have portrayed myself as a sad desperado, posting frequently and intensely and desperate to defend myself against any perceived criticisms made about me and/or my beliefs - - Oh no, wait a minute - that wasn't me was it, that was YOU!!! Projection, its an interesting concept, don’t you think ?? seems to be your primary psychological mechanism. Tao, get this: all the criticisms that you make of other people and their so called stupidity and fanaticism are true of no-one more so that yourself. And deep down you know this and that is why you protest so vehemently. Me thinks the moron doth protest to much, waaay to much.

You also wrote to Joe "I do tend to point out or criticise what some people say (write), if and when they say stupid things. I feel that if people cannot handle being criticised for the some of the dogmatic nonsense that they post here, then I guess maybe they should just not post on a public blog forum " - Em ... Hello ? See comment re Projection made above. You know what they say about people in glass houses ... ???

In summary, Tao you are an adolescent moron and you are ruining what would otherwise be good website with your inane hysteria and hyper-sensitivity.
Now, i am sure you will respond to this with your characteristic vitriol, but why don't you just not ? why don't you just give it a rest ? why do you care what i think or what i say about you ? would you defend yourself for eternity in response to each and every criticism made about you ? You probably would, wouldn't you and this is why you are so BORING.

Here's a tip: You know when you defend yourself so disproportionately to any criticism made about you or your beliefs, well it makes you look like a FANATIC. And you know that mask that you wear of presumed intelligence and wisdom, well that mask has got a big crack down the middle and everyone can see that you are just an immature childish pseudo-intellectual bitter twisted fool. Everyone can see it except you. Sad but true.

Here's another tip: the only bitch you know is your mother.

OVER AND OUT.

Rosa

[Rosa]

Tao

Regarding your comments :-

"Get a real life bitch" – Nice. very intelligent response to my insightful analysis of your pseudo-intelligence. clearly you are a very sophisticated being.

"Get an intellect that works" - again, a very mature response. This assessment you made of me is clearly based on the many and numerous posts I have made on this website. Obviously i have portrayed myself as a sad desperado, posting frequently and intensely and desperate to defend myself against any perceived criticisms made about me and/or my beliefs - - Oh no, wait a minute - that wasn't me was it, that was YOU!!! Projection, its an interesting concept, don’t you think ?? seems to be your primary psychological mechanism. Tao, get this: all the criticisms that you make of other people and their so called stupidity and fanaticism are true of no-one more so that yourself. And deep down you know this and that is why you protest so vehemently. Me thinks the moron doth protest to much, waaay to much.

You also wrote to Joe "I do tend to point out or criticise what some people say (write), if and when they say stupid things. I feel that if people cannot handle being criticised for the some of the dogmatic nonsense that they post here, then I guess maybe they should just not post on a public blog forum " - Em ... Hello ? See comment re Projection made above. You know what they say about people in glass houses ... ???

In summary, Tao you are an adolescent moron and you are ruining what would otherwise be good website with your inane hysteria and hyper-sensitivity.
Now, i am sure you will respond to this with your characteristic vitriol, but why don't you just not ? why don't you just give it a rest ? why do you care what i think or what i say about you ? would you defend yourself for eternity in response to each and every criticism made about you ? You probably would, wouldn't you and this is why you are so BORING and PREDICTABLE.

Here's a tip: You know when you defend yourself so disproportionately to any criticism made about you or your beliefs, well it makes you look like a FANATIC. And you know that mask that you wear of presumed intelligence and wisdom, well that mask has got a big crack down the middle and everyone can see that you are just an immature childish pseudo-intellectual bitter twisted fool. Everyone can see it except you. Sad but true.

Here's another tip: the only b*itch you know is your mother.

PEACE, indeed.

Rosa

[Arun]

This site is obviously going to deteriorate into mindless arguing unless people stay on track.

Can you all just get a grip ? EVERYONE.

[Rosa]

Arun

Namaste!

Yeah, you are totally right. No need for mindless bickering, and nit-picking and fault-finding. Its all very petty.

For what its worth my view is that: Sant Mat is a Faith, not a religion. There is a distinction between the two categorisations. Radha Soami is in many respects a beautiful faith and it, if nothing else, proscribes lifestyle values that I totally agree with and aspire to and for the most part live by. Like any large organisation of any sort, however, it attracts all sorts of people to it and people see what they want in it and take what they want from it and project what they are unto it, and thus it becomes maligned and misrepresented. I know that these statements may cause controversy, but I honestly believe that one's experience of Sant Mat is reflective of one's state of mind and character. This is not a criticism of anyone. In all honestly, I have experienced Sant Mat to be a very beautiful thing. And my experience is valid, if subjective - as is everyone else's.

Bygones to one and all.

Rosa :-)

[Sam]

Hmmm...
I really initially posted on this site to get some honest views from a different perspective, in order to ascertain the validity of the RSSB path. Reading the comments, as they have, flown off at tangents, I`m more confused than ever about RSSB. I`m thinking why worry about it at all, and time better spent seeking a faith with more clarity.
Can`t seem to makes ends meet here!

[Tucson Bob]

Sam: You say that you may seek a faith with more claity. In faith there is no clarity except, perhaps, clarity in one's hope/belief that what the faith professes is valid.

[tao]

Rosa,

Your so-called "insightful analysis" was nothing but insipidly immature whining.

You wrote this about yourself: "desperate to defend myself against any perceived criticisms made about me and/or my beliefs".

That's quite obvious.

You also wrote: "Projection ... seems to be your primary psychological mechanism."

Talking about yourself again huh?

Now as for your aburd remark about my criticisms of others beliefs and fanaticim, you know absolutely nothing about me. And in fact, I myself have no such beliefs to have any "fanaticism" about. Nor do I "protest" anything. I merely make critical observations and state my conclusions. As for who the "moron" is, you just don't have any clue do you? Take a look in the mirror sometime.

You also wrote: "You know what they say about people in glass houses".

I don't have a problem or a hang-up about criticisms like you do, because I know that most of what pathetic people like yourself say is all garbage to begin with.

You also wrote: "you are an adolescent moron and you are ruining what would otherwise be good website with your inane hysteria and hyper-sensitivity."

Thats funny, because you yourself are actually the "moron" who reacted with all the "hysteria and hyper-sensitivity".

Apparently you have not been here very long, nor do you understand the over-all orientation of this blog. It also sounds like you react to any criticism towards religion and spiritual guru-cults like Santmat and RSSB. If that's the case, then you are in the wrong place.

If someone makes comments (such as yourself or myself) then their comments are open and subject to criticism by others. Thats just life. You'd be smart to wise up and get used to it.

But you have also not given any sort of reasonable intelligent arguments against my comments. Instead, you have done nothing more than attack me personally. That just shows your shallowness, your ego-centricity, and your immaturity, emotional reactivity, and lack of any substance.

You wrote: "why do you care what i think or what i say about you ?"

I don't. Your comments have little or no substance or meaning.

You wrote: "this is why you are so BORING."

If I am so "BORING", then why do you even bother to react to me and my comments? You reaction to me actually reveals just how shallow you are.

You wrote: "that mask that you wear of presumed intelligence and wisdom .... and everyone can see that you are just an immature childish pseudo-intellectual bitter twisted fool."

I'm sorry to inform you, but you know absolutely nothing about me, or about what knowledge or wisdom I may have. And that is quite evident by the fact that I am definitly NOT an "intellectual" in any sense. If you doubt that, then ask Brian who knows me far better than the real "pseudo-intellectual" fools like yourself.

Not to mention your revealing of the kind of low-life scum-bag you are by your poisonous comment: "the only bitch you know is your mother".

In conclusion... Like I said, go find something better to do with your life besides whining and dumping your stinking foulness on the critics of religious cults and cult-gurus.

[sam]

you could be right there bob, maybe clarity was the wrong word, suppose less confusing and condractive would be more appropriate.

[tao]

To Rosa:

I just had a feeling that you are an apologist for Sant Mat....even before I read your comments below which confirmed my intuition:

"For what its worth my view is that: Sant Mat is a Faith, not a religion."

"Radha Soami is in many respects a beautiful faith and it, if nothing else, proscribes lifestyle values that I totally agree with and aspire to and for the most part live by."

"I honestly believe that one's experience of Sant Mat is reflective of one's state of mind and character."

"I have experienced Sant Mat to be a very beautiful thing. And my experience is valid, if subjective"

This explains your negative reactivity and your problem with those like myself who do in fact criticise Sant Mat, and specifically Radha Soami Mat and its current fraudulent guru.

However, the fact that you are satsangi and thus a believer in the Sant Mat or RS cult dogma does not mean that others such as myself cannot criticise it.

There is no doubt in my mind that I have exceedinly more knowledge and direct experience with all aspects of Santmat and RS than you do. That entitles me to make any and all criticisms about it that I find reasonable, relevant, and factual.

No one has told you what to believe or pursue. So don't come here telling me that I am wrong or "pseudo" because I have critical and different views, knowledge, and experience about Santmat & RS than you do.

I know all about people who think and believe like you do. I have known a great many of them. But just because you think that there is some value in Santmat & RS does not mean that there actually is value and truth, or that other people must accept that and agree with you.

I could go into all the various problems with Santmat and RSSB, but it has already been covered before, both here and in the radhasoamistudies yahoo group. But I dolubt that you are interested anyway. Cult believers and blind followers like yourself usually are not really interested in knowing the truth.

Enough said.

[tao]

Sam,

If you really want to know and understand all about Sant Mat and RSSB etc, then I recommend that you go join these discussion groups:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exsat/

There you will be able to ask and get first-hand knowledge and insight and the answers about Sant Mat that you desire.

You can also e-mail Brian and he may be able to shed some light on the subject as well.

[sam]

lol... i should have less faith in spelling, especially when rushing, i wrote 'condraction' , i meant contradictive, dunno were i got that from. And tao, u sure like to get to the root of things. You make me laugh at how you scrutinize each point, but your points are valid and more agreeable. i guess rosa is right too to a degree, just expects more courteous comments, but then again fell too foul with the 'mother' cus. i agree with a previous comment, too far back to scroll think it was bob saying its just tao's style. cant see the need of being contentious, to the point and factual logically is more reasonable. and tao dont forget to comment on what i asked earlier if dont mind.

[tao]

Rosa,

Some comments about a few of your statements...

Rosa wrote: "For what its worth my view is that: Sant Mat is a Faith, not a religion."

Just who do you think you are fooling? A "Faith" IS a religion. Sant Mat has all the attributes and trappings of a religion.

It has a particular concept of Deity. It has a number of beliefs, practices, and rituals. Its premises are dogmatic. It expects blind faith in the guru/savior figure. The guru/savior is regarded as being God in human form. And those who are followers (disciples) are considered to be (and consider themselves to be) specially "marked souls" who are spiritually mopre blessed that the rest of humanity.

Rosa wrote: "Radha Soami is in many respects a beautiful faith and it, if nothing else, proscribes lifestyle values that I totally agree with and aspire to and for the most part live by."

What is so "beautiful" about a cult (Radha Soami) that is founded upon lies, that traps naieve seekers into those lies, that exploits its followers, and that produces no evidence of its spiritual claims? Radha Soami does not free people. It disempowers people and exploits people's ignorance, insecurities, and spiritual aspirations. So what is so "beautiful" about that?

Rosa wrote: "I honestly believe that one's experience of Sant Mat is reflective of one's state of mind and character."

That is true of all things. But that is no excuse for the fact that Sant Mat does NOT deliver what it leads people to believe that it does. It is full of authoritarian dogma which keeps its followers believing in dualistic myths and cosmology, subservient to a false "saint" or "master" figure, and practicing mechanical and dissociative meditation rituals for decades with no results or spiritual advancement whatsoever.

Rosa wrote: "I have experienced Sant Mat to be a very beautiful thing. And my experience is valid, if subjective"

Again, as was pointed out before, there is nothing "beautiful" about false religious dogma and authoritarian cult mind-control. Rosa says her experience is "valid", but just what "experience" is that? ... and what does such "subjective" experience have to do with the actual reality behind the myth of Sant Mat religion and authoritarian guru-cultism?

[Tucson Bob]

In 1970, as a naive starry-eyed young initiate, I would not have accepted Tao's comments regarding Sant Mat RSSB. Now, after many years of experience with that faith/cult/religion, I whole-heartedly concur.

If a prospective satsangi or current satsangi (follower of RSSB) wakes up and accepts these words there may be a sense of loss or desolation, because their conceptual framework for life, the purpose of their life, may suddenly be shattered.

But you see, you need no path to perfection. Reality has not arisen from an imagined past leading to an imagined future. It is present right now.

As a separate individual you may feel the need for a spiritual path, religion, or whatever, but in the clarity of what you really are, this present awareness free of the burden of concepts, any search for awakening is undermined.

[Roger]

ET and Tucson Bob,

I enjoyed both of your above comments. Much wisdom in each.

Bob,

In your last paragraph, you mentioned, "any search for awakening."

Do you have any further comments on what, "awakening" really means?

Is it just a word?

Thanks,
Roger

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Brian et al.,

I am not the "Bob" Roger requested hearing from - nor am I the "Howard" who wrote above. As an outsider to the RSSB, however, I might offer my outsider's observation (gleaned largely through exposure to your site and references made herein) that it is, as an operative conventicle, surely a "cult." It is, of course, also a "religion" and - for its followers - a "faith" as well. In this it parallels the existence/structure of the Catholic Church, the plethora of Baptist church groups, the Mormons, "Armstrongism" (= the now essentially defunct Worldwide Church of God), etc., etc. - and the Methodists (which represents my own "churchish" background). Various degrees of "faithfulness" exist in and among all these gatherings of followers - and likewise of those who stand critical of them, each and every one. Unfortunately, the human characteristics of egotism and partisan opinion(s) crop up therewith too. Too bad - but not unexpected.

Thanks, however, for bringing forth your (several) opinions about what might be valuable in the worldview/discipline/practice which the RSSB advocates - and also what its flaws are (as various ones of you have observed them). As a "cult" it certainly looks interesting, but I'm glad I didn't spend any of my life in it as a "faith."

Robert Paul Howard

[Rosa]

Tao

Just because you perceive RSSB to be a negative thing and just because you personally reject Sant Mat this does not discredit it. You are entitled to your opinion. But your opinion is not conclusive, is it ? If you have had a negative experience with Sant Mat than that is unfortunate, and then as far as your path is concerned you would be wise to discontinue. But you cannot speak on behalf of millions of other people who practice Sant Mat. And just for the sake of argument, if everything you said was true about RSSB (which it is not), even if were true - people still choose to follow it. And that is their choice. And any satisfaction that they gain from it is as valid as your disatisfaction. No one kidnapped you and took you to Beas, did they ? No one held you hostage there ? You speak about it like it is a terriorist organisation or something and it isn't.

In all honestly, I am truly sorry for you that you have experienced with Sant Mat to be a negative thing. Really I am. But I have not, so I do not accept your views nor do I share them because they do not resonate with my experience.

Your posts reminded me of a story I heard many years ago:-

It is a story from Judaism, in fact, about the Garden of Mysteries. It is a parable and its goes something like this (I am paraphrasing):

Four men entered the Garden of Mysteries and cast a look upon its splendor. One of the men died immediately. One became demented. One of the men turned apostate and heretic. And only one of the men left in peace. (this man was Rabbi Akiba).

Thats just parable in Jewish folklore, but is bears some resonance here, for quite obvious reasons.

I am sorry that your negative experiences have turned you apostate and heretical.
There is nothing else that I can say to you.

****
One other thing though, using the word "bitch" is very offensive to women. I don't know where you are from, but where I come from it is extremely distasteful to use the word "bitch" - obviously you have no respect for women and hence the reason why I made reference to your mother - by way of example that that type of language is offensive to all women.

Clearly, Tao, you are not an individual that is at ease with Sant Mat. I can think of another religion that would well suit your belligerence and mysogyny. I won't name it here, but we all know what it is. So there is an idea for you to entertain.
And there is a group that would welcome you to it.

All the best,

Rosa

[Tucson Bob]

Roger: I would like to respond to your question about the word "awakening" but this thread of posts is getting a bit murky at best. All words such as awakening are just pointers to something that is no 'thing' at all. I'll be back.

[Dennis]

Tucson Bob: Reality may be "present right now" as you wrote-but whose to say there are'nt higher planes of existence than this one? Both the string theory of Physicists and the experience of countless mystics collaberate this! Do you really think all mystics who claim to "go inside" are deluded?(actually they would be hallucinating, NOT delusional!) I know I can distinguish between the ramblings of a lunatic and the claims of spiritual achievment of the Mystic-and NO I dont think most are liars as some would claim-many but not all are highly moral individuals

[Tucson Bob]

Dear Dennis: These "higher planes" appear as more refined, more comprehensive, more expansive, but the awareness in which they are experienced is here now wherever you are. There is no 'where' but 'here' whether your 'here' is in heaven or hell! Reality is present whatever your experience. How do you go where you already are? How can anyone take you where you already are? Reality, truth, god or whatever you want to call it is not a place or thing to be found or gone to as an object. It is This which is looking when you look for It. So, again, It can't be found as an object. It is pure non-objectivity and It is no 'thing' at all.

*What trips us up is the objective inexistence of pure non-objectivity which is all that we really are.

Hey Roger: There. I managed to say a bit more about it.

[tao]

Rosa,

Don't give me that philosophical BS.

I don't have to say anything to discredit Sant Mat. Sant Mat does a real fine job of discrediting itself, all by itself. There is no "opinion" necessary.

I never said that I had any "negative experience with Sant Mat". So don't presume that I did.

I also don't have any "path" as you say, so therefore I need not "discontinue" any so-called "path".

Rosa wrote: "But you cannot speak on behalf of millions of other people who practice Sant Mat."

I don't speak "on behalf' of anyone. But I can speak for what I myself know and what I have observed about a great many satsangis.

Rosa wrote: "...if everything you said was true about RSSB (which it is not)..."

How would you know that it is not? You merely believe. However, the evidence is all right there. You are simply blind and in denial.

Rosa wrote: "...people still choose to follow it."

So what? That's their problem. Just because many people "follow" something does not make it true. Millions of people follow all kinds of nonsense besides just Santmat/RS. Your argument is empty.

Rosa wrote: "...any satisfaction that they gain from it is as valid as your disatisfaction".

And what "satifaction" would that be?

Also, I have no such "disatisfaction" that you presume. I have merely stated observations and facts about Santmat/RS, its dualistic cosmology and theology, and its fraudulent gurus.

Rosa wrote: "You speak about it like it is a terriorist organisation or something and it isn't."

RS is nothing more than a dogmatic religious cult. However, it definitely does try to control its followers, and it also threatens people from time to time, and it also exploits satsangis (initiates) and their spiritual aspirations.

You wrote: "...I am truly sorry for you that you have experienced with Sant Mat to be a negative thing."

Again, I have no such "negative" experience. I have merely looked at Santmat/RS from a very knowledgeable and objective point of view. Sant Mat and RS is full of unsubstantiated myths and lies.

You wrote: "I do not accept your views nor do I share them because they do not resonate with my experience."

Well that's your problem, not mine. Some day maybe you will wake up and free yourself.

And btw, what "experience" might that be?

Now as for your little story... it has absolutely no bearing upon myself.

You simply do not know where I am at spiritually, nor do you comprehend or understand the fundamental problems with regard to the Santmat/RS cosmology, theology, and false guru-cultism.

You wrote: "I am sorry that your negative experiences have turned you..."

Again, I have no such "negative experiences". However, I do have a great deal of deep knowledge, insight, and experience with regard to Santmat/RS. Apparently you do not.

You wrote: "...using the word "bitch" is very offensive to women..." "...obviously you have no respect for women".

If you act like a bitch, then you might just end up getting called a bitch. Thats life.... so grow up. If you are personally offended, then that is a good reason for you to look at your own expectations and reactions.

You wrote: "...hence the reason why I made reference to your mother"

That's a load of BS. You aren't fooling anyone. You made that reference precisely because you took something personally and you had the impluse to retaliate for a perceived offense and insult.

You wrote: "...you are not an individual that is at ease with Sant Mat."

You just don't have a clue, do you? The truth is that I could not care less about Sant Mat. It is not something which I am hung-up on or in like you are.

You wrote: "I can think of another religion that would well suit your belligerence and mysogyny. I won't name it here, but we all know what it is."

Your prejudice and religious bigotry is showing here. You obviously have some serious problems. You also don't have the faintest idea of where I am coming from spiritually. Your defensiveness and judgemental attitude and negative bias toward other religions and especially against ex-satsangis and non-satsangis, is very typical of RS satsangi cult followers. I know many who think just like you. And its pathetic.

Now the real question in my mind is that, given that you are such a convinced and firm RS believer... Why would you come to a blog that is authored by someone (Brian) who is an RS "heretic" in your estimation? Why would you come to a site that is critical of RSSB, and then be defensive? Why are you not content with remaining strictly within the RS fold?

You wrote: "And there is a group that would welcome you to it."

And just what "group" would that be?

However, if you are talking about spiritual/religious groups, the truth of the matter is that I am not at all interested in any such "groups". I want nothing to do with religion or with any spiritual "groups".

[Roger]

Tuscon Bob,

With my Internet shovel, I was finally able to dig through the many comments to find your reply.

Thanks much,
Roger

[Dakini]

I'm not an initiate of Sant Mat, though I have had more mystical experiences than I can count. Over the last 10 months I have read over ten of the Sant Mat books, and I can say that within their pages are a great deal of my own experiences. Historically, mystics report similar experiences of one another which are now known to be classic examples of sign posts along the Way. I don't claim to know much about nearly anything, but I do think that some of the tenets this science teaches are wise ones. For example, why not discuss your visions and experiences? (Even though on this blog I read that the present Master says it's ok)...Because:
1. In the various stages of one's cultivation, especially in the beginning, it is tempting for one's ego to feel special. Therefore, there is an impulse to blab about it all (besides, visions and the like are so unworldly, they feel fascinating). A huge ego can be the mark of a novice, which, really, is a very useful indicator to measure progress. For some, ego never goes away. Classically, the mystic is humble(d), among other things.
2. The people not on the path you tell will likely think you are crazy. It pushes people away. Is this what you want? Historically, by telling - especially of miracles - saints have been tortured and killed. Kind of good reason to keep your mouth shut for a while.
3. Words are a sore compromise and debase the experience.
4. It can be confusing early on which experiences are truly outside of our own mind.
5. We are not meant to hold onto these experiences, but let them go so that advancement can made. You will know which experiences possess the most significance because they will never be forgotten, and they will be the basis by which your entire life will shift.

Gurinder S. says that some experiences can be discussed, and I would say that telling others of significant, powerful experiences has been helpful for them.

Which brings up the good point in the Sant Mat material about requiring a guru. Without a guru, progress may not be made. Navigating these waters can be scary and can bring some to the brink of madness. Again, mystics have classic similarities, even though every mystic will have his/her own very personal experiences of consciousness. A teacher is valuable to bring context and understanding to one's experience and to measure progress. On the greatest quest of the Soul, would not a guide be useful? But here is a question - is Gurinder Singh really available to his devotees as a personal guide? From reading the blog, it appears not. For modern day mystics, authentic Masters who have the time to meet and guide devotees are just too rare. Bloggers, is there one out there? According to bloggers, it seems the prior Master was more available to his devotees, and therefor the SMat path felt more palpably accessible.

If you have had mystical experiences, the Sant Mat material is quite clear and plain, there is not too much that is cryptic here. One comment on the blog asked why there was no body of literature like the bible - this is not a religion, it is a science by which Masters and mystics have reached transcendental and ultimate states. It is easy to see why people leave the path, when progress is not made. But there is no guarantee that one will ever "meet God," or have experiences, even after a lifetime of meditation and devotion. I read the disappointment - and it is the greatest of disappointments. This longing is real. But to those who are so disappointed, be very aware of what you seek. What the books leave out is that the path of the mystic is not a bed of roses. When the material speaks of the fact that along with your advancement, you could acquire superpower abilities that may come and go, body changes, personality shifts, and many other things, this is a fact that is classic of the mystic. Are you really ready for your whole way of being to be altered? Would you willingly sacrifice your way of life and the family and friends within that life? Because it is possible that will happen.
-------------------------------
This from D.H. Lawrence's Phoenix:
Are you willing to be sponged out, erased, canceled, made nothing?
Are you willing to be made nothing?
dipped into oblivion?

If not, you will never really change.
--------------------

As to whether Gurinder S. is a "real" Master, all I can say is that after reading several of the Sant Mat books, I had a vision of a dark haired man standing on a mountain, and he gave me some instructions, but mostly transmitted a feeling of strength and deep understanding. Tonight I found a picture of Gurinder Singh on the internet - it was the man in my vision. And I had not seen what Gurinder S. looked like prior to this vision. In the least, his presence feels imprinted on the material.

[tao]

Dakini,

Probably to the chagrin of Santmat & RS believers, I must disagree with you on a number of issues, assertions, and points that you have made.

You initially admitted that you are not an initiate and that you do not "claim to "know much about nearly anything". But then you went on to state various personal and acquired assumptions, assertions, and defenses as if you do know.

Here are your points (in quotations) which I see as being rather flawed, problematic, lor incorrect in some way or other:

"Historically, mystics report similar experiences of one another which are now known to be classic examples of sign posts along the Way."

Along the way to what? Experiences are merely experiences. And experiences are not all similiar, but quite varied and ultimately relative and conditional.

"I do think that some of the tenets this science teaches are wise ones. For example, why not discuss your visions and experiences?"

You are incorrect. Sant mat and especially Radha Soami mat has been very narrow-minded and strongly opposed to discussing one's meditation experience. That is something which is regarded as taboo and is drilled into the RS satsangi from the get go. I would not call that a "wise" tenet. I would call such taboos as being deliberate cult mind control.

"A huge ego can be the mark of a novice, which, really, is a very useful indicator to measure progress."

How do you presume "ego" to be an indicator of progress? Do you actually understand exactly what "ego" is? Please answer.

And if you do, then how does that relate to your assertion that it an "useful indicator"?

"For some, ego never goes away."

The so-called "ego" does not actually "go away". But again, do you really understand what "ego" is? If so, please explain.

"Classically, the mystic is..."

The entire notion of a so-called "mystic" is nothing but an objective concept, an identification, and a mere belief. You apparently have not examined and understood this.

"The people not on the path you tell will likely think you are crazy. It pushes people away."

It is quite irrelevant what other people may think or react. Nor does "it" push anyone away.

What exactly are you striving for? Are you really striving for spiritual realization, or are you just trying to maintain approval and please others?

The way is truth... and truth is its own reward.

"...by telling - especially of miracles - saints have been tortured and killed. Kind of good reason to keep your mouth shut for a while."

Thats nonsense. Do you think that those "saints" cared? No they did not. Nor is anyone going to be "tortured and killed" because they discuss their meditation. That is a totally absurd way of thinking.

"Words are a sore compromise and debase the experience."

That is simply not true at all. This statement is ignorance. Words can do absolutely nothing to adversely affect or "debase" genuine spiritual realization.

"It can be confusing early on which experiences are truly outside of our own mind."

Huh??? ... That makes no sense whatsoever. All experiences are in and of the mind. There are no "experiences" "outside" the mind. Beyond the illusion of mind, there is only reality, which is not an "experience".

It appears that the confusion here is but your own. If not, then perhaps you can elaborate and explain more precisely what you mean.

"...which experiences possess the most significance because they will never be forgotten, and they will be the basis by which your entire life will shift."

Again, along the same line, "experiences" are relative, conditional, and transitory. Thus, not really a "basis" by which one's "entire life will shift". But perhaps you can better clarify what you mean to say.

"Gurinder S. says that some experiences can be discussed,"

What does it matter what "Gurinder S." says? He does not determine or dictate what people can or cannot do. It is irrelevant what he says. Each individual is free to conduct their life as they please...especially whan it comes to spirituality and meditation.

"Without a guru, progress may not be made."

Now this is utter rigid DOGMA. This assertion is totally false and fundamentally incorrect. Apparently you do not understand what is "guru". Do you really know what (and where) the guru is?

If you do, then please explain, and also explain what guru is in relation to your assertion above (You wrote: "Without a guru, progress may not be made.")

"Navigating these waters can be scary and can bring some to the brink of madness."

Now that is just nonsense. There is no such possibility of "madness" in authentic spiritual awakening and Self-realization.

Although some of the dissociative practices and orientations of Sant mat may indeed pose or effect some kinds of mental problems as is clearly evidenced in some satsangis.

"mystics have classic similarities,"

I would not say so. First, what do you mean by "mystics"?

And second, where are the so-called similarities?

There are many various and diverse approaches to spiritual realization. The only similarities that I can see are superficial in nature.

"A teacher is valuable to bring context and understanding to one's experience and to measure progress."

Well I can agree with that to some extent. But in this case, ONLY "a teacher" ... and not any kind of presumed divine savior figure or a false guru or so-called "master".

"...would not a guide be useful?"

Yes... but only as a guide, and only if the guide is an authentic sage and not just some appointed cult leader.

"modern day mystics, authentic Masters who have the time to meet and guide devotees are just too rare."

How is that? Just who are these "authentic Masters" that you speak of?

And just why should they not have "the time" to guide aspirants if they are presumed and claim to be a genuine guru?

"it seems the prior Master was more available to his devotees,"

I do not agree. You obviously are not familiar with that. Charan was more or less just as inaccesible unless one traveled over to India, and even then one never had any significant degree of personal interaction or guidance. Sometimes letters were answered though. By and large there was little or no personal guidance from the guru. RSSB was just too large to accomodate that.

"If you have had mystical experiences, the Sant Mat material is quite clear and plain, there is not too much that is cryptic here."

I disagree with that as well. Sant Mat literature is over-flowing with dogmatic cosmology and theolgy, and unsubstantiated claims and vague generalities.

"this is not a religion, it is a science by which Masters and mystics have reached transcendental and ultimate states."

WRONG again. What have you been listening to? It's obvious what has influenced you. It is not a "sciense" by any stretch of the imagination. (Go read David Lane if you don't quite see that) Nor is there any proof that any such "transcendental and ultimate states" have been "reached". Nor do any such claimed experiences indicate anything beyond some internal phenomena.

Contrary to what RS and its satsangi followers would have you believe, Sant mat and Radha Soami IS most definitely a RELIGION. It has all the characteristics of a religion and a religious guru-cult.

"...there is no guarantee that one will ever "meet God," or have experiences, even after a lifetime of meditation and devotion."

That's pretty damn sad results if you ask me. Only a fool would spend an entire lifetime hoping for some result that never comes.

However, there are other paths/teachings which DO produce results. I guess you must not be aware of that.

"the path of the mystic is not a bed of roses. ... "Are you really ready for your whole way of being to be altered?"
... "sacrifice your way of life and the family and friends within that life? Because it is possible that will happen."

No truly authentic and valid spiritual teaching will ever expect or cause such kinds of problems as you are indicating above.

"...whether Gurinder S. is a "real" Master, all I can say is that after reading several of the Sant Mat books, I had a vision of a dark haired man standing on a mountain, and he gave me some instructions, but mostly transmitted a feeling of strength and deep understanding. ... I found a picture of Gurinder Singh on the internet - it was the man in my vision."

This comment says it all. Your entire premise is clearly based upon nothing more than your imagination, your feelings, and your mental projections. Just because you read some Santmat books and then had some kind of mind trip, does not validate Gurinder Singh in any way whatsoever.

Gurinder Singh is a fraud simply because he is not an authetic Sat-Guru. He is merely the appointed and controlling leader of a dogmatic religious cult.

"Gurinder S. ... his presence feels imprinted on the material."

That notion is fundamentally incorrect. Why? Because "the material" (RS books) was written long long before Gurinder was born or came upon the scene. Thus, his so-called "presence" cannot possibly be "imprinted on" the literature.

Nor do I think he has even written any books of his own (Brian can correct me on that if I am wrong).

No matter how you cut it, the guy Gurinder is but a fraud as far as his being a truly realized Sat-Guru. (Its mostly the ignorant followers who claim that he is a "master" anyway.) He is just an appointed leader and head of a quasi-religious organization and cult.

Suggestion: You would be wise to do some more research and try not to buy into every seeming "spititual" or "mystic" notion and premise that you stumble upon, and not project illusory phenomena as being indicative of reality.

[Dakini]

Toa,
I appreciate your responses.

To reply:
'Historically, mystics report similar experiences of one another which are now known to be classic examples of sign posts along the Way.'

" Along the way to what?"

- Along the way of progress.

"Experiences are merely experiences. And experiences are not all similiar, but quite varied and ultimately relative and conditional."

- Yes,experiences are just experiences. Of course, not all are similar and are quite personal, but there are classic similarities and themes.

"You are incorrect. Sant mat and especially Radha Soami mat has been very narrow-minded and strongly opposed to discussing one's meditation experience. That is something which is regarded as taboo and is drilled into the RS satsangi from the get go. I would not call that a "wise" tenet. I would call such taboos as being deliberate cult mind control."

- Thank you for the clarification. I'm not a follower of Sant Mat.

"How do you presume "ego" to be an indicator of progress? Do you actually understand exactly what "ego" is? Please answer."

- I was referring to ego not as the psychological term, but referring to those who power trip.

"And if you do, then how does that relate to your assertion that it an "useful indicator"?

- Those I have witnessed who feel like they are on a power trip because of their 'transcendent' experiences
seem too attached to the experiences themselves, rather than anything else. So if one finds oneself bragging, then it can be used as a self-indicator that attention can be better placed. I start to think, 'Is the seeker interested in accumulating spiritual power or interested in truth?'

"It is quite irrelevant what other people may think or react. Nor does "it" push anyone away."

- You're right - it does not matter what others think. "It" never polarizes.
What 'pushes away' people is relating experiences for egocentric reasons and sometimes even pushes people away for no good reasons. In fact it happens that people have become afraid of what they are witnessing or hearing and do not understand, and indeed have physically walked away when encountering fear. For example, if a person was to emanate light, would every witness react the same?

"Are you really striving for spiritual realization, or are you just trying to maintain approval and please others?"

- I realized long ago that discussing visions, etc. to most people was not always useful. I am explaining that others who do discuss experience may encounter rejection and reactions - and my question was to them - are they ready for that? Because most ppl. aren't. Explaining spiritual type experiences to friends doesn't bring one closer to the aim.

"The way is truth... and truth is its own reward.'"

- You are so correct.

'...by telling - especially of miracles - saints have been tortured and killed. Kind of good reason to keep your mouth shut for a while.'
"Thats nonsense. Do you think that those "saints" cared? No they did not. Nor is anyone going to be "tortured and killed" because they discuss their meditation. That is a totally absurd way of thinking."

- It's a metaphor, Tao. :-) There is an opening for consequence when someone else feels threatened. And that is what I am telling the reader to prepare for.

"Words are a sore compromise and debase the experience." That is simply not true at all. This statement is ignorance. Words can do absolutely nothing to adversely affect or "debase" genuine spiritual realization."

- Yes, 'Debase' was the wrong word - compromise is better. Nothing debases a miracle or an overwhelmingly powerful experience. But I think that trying to explain the inexplicable, in the least, waters it down. Nevertheless, I have given my explanations before and they have been received by many as a gift.

"Again, along the same line, "experiences" are relative, conditional, and transitory. Thus, not really a "basis" by which one's "entire life will shift". But perhaps you can better clarify what you mean to say."

- Tao, I have never been the same since certain experiences. I can never go back to who I was, because there was a distinct, fundamental shift in me. It feels like everything changes.

"What does it matter what "Gurinder S." says? He does not determine or dictate what people can or cannot do. It is irrelevant what he says. Each individual is free to conduct their life as they please...especially whan it comes to spirituality and meditation."

- Yes, you are right. I was referring to another blogger's comment.

"Without a guru, progress may not be made."
Now this is utter rigid DOGMA. This assertion is totally false and fundamentally incorrect. Apparently you do not understand what is "guru". Do you really know what (and where) the guru is? If you do, then please explain, and also explain what guru is in relation to your assertion above (You wrote: "Without a guru, progress may not be made.")

- I didn't say 'won't be made,' I said 'may not be made.' I think it is helpful to have a teacher who has reached his/her own stages of spiritual realization - or at least to read accounts of it in order that you understand where you are in relation to your progress. People have questions - is what I am experiencing a natural phenomena of meditation, etc? Some ppl can get sidetracked along the way, thinking they are making progress, but instead are accumulating spiritual power. Some ppl have questions about their meditation,etc.

"Although some of the dissociative practices and orientations of Sant mat may indeed pose or effect some kinds of mental problems as is clearly evidenced in some satsangis."

- This is what I mean by "madness" - it can create temporary instability. So it helps to have a teacher.

"mystics have classic similarities,"
'I would not say so. First, what do you mean by "mystics"? '

- Mystics: Those who believe they have encountered the Divine or experienced Reality. St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Hildegarde, Meister Eckhart, Blake, Catherine of Siena, Tolle, etc., etc.

"And second, where are the so-called similarities? There are many various and diverse approaches to spiritual realization. The only similarities that I can see are superficial in nature."

- Within the realm of the mystic, there are patterns which all mystics have in common -
1. Visions within a religious context, including being "touched" or interacted with by "God" or having an experience of Reality.
2. Experiences of beauty and pure love, which evoke an irrevocable reverence and awe.
Here, for the mystic, beauty is seen as an expression of spirit – or, True Reality, with the concrete world being a reflection and complement to the "other, bigger, more eternal" world.
----
Historically, for the Christian saints who had experiences of the Absolute:
3. Periods of great suffering, pain, physical and emotional problems, which can go on for years with no particular cure.
In terms of Christian saints, there is a sense that God chooses the initiate.
---------
'A teacher is valuable to bring context and understanding to one's experience and to measure progress.'
"Well I can agree with that to some extent. But in this case, ONLY "a teacher" ... and not any kind of presumed divine savior figure or a false guru or so-called "master". Yes... but only as a guide, and only if the guide is an authentic sage and not just some appointed cult leader."

- We agree on this.

"it seems the prior Master was more available to his devotees,"
I do not agree. You obviously are not familiar with that."

- No, I am not.

"Charan was more or less just as inaccesible unless one traveled over to India, and even then one never had any significant degree of personal interaction or guidance. Sometimes letters were answered though. By and large there was little or no personal guidance from the guru. RSSB was just too large to accomodate that."

- Yes, this is my hesitation about Sant Mat.

'If you have had mystical experiences, the Sant Mat material is quite clear and plain, there is not too much that is cryptic here.'
"I disagree with that as well."

- Sorry we don't agree on this. There are some things pretty common to mystical experience.

"Sant Mat literature is over-flowing with dogmatic cosmology and theolgy, and unsubstantiated claims and vague generalities."

- Yes, you're right - a LOT of dogma.

'...there is no guarantee that one will ever "meet God," or have experiences, even after a lifetime of meditation and devotion.'

"That's pretty damn sad results if you ask me. Only a fool would spend an entire lifetime hoping for some result that never comes.

- I don't agree that only a fool would spend a lifetime seeking the Truth.

"However, there are other paths/teachings which DO produce results. I guess you must not be aware of that."

- I am aware.
Thank you for your insights, Tao.

[Brinda Mann]

Sant Mat / RSSB or give it any name... does seem like an organized religion or cult to me. Though I have been remotely associated to the cult, but seeing and interacting with quite a few followers, I am made to believe so. All my following comments come with a dash of pain and frustration since in many ways I have been pressurised to join this cult and till date have been resisting.

I am an agnostic and I hope I go to my coffin with the same spirit and mindset. I hope I have the strength to never influence people to take up my school of thought. Each mind as it matures has the capability to take decisions for itself... all those there think hard and take a good decision for yourself.
I came from a family where religion, rituals, worship of any sort and kind was not appreciated. I heard my parents always believe and practice mankind as their religion. I married a man whose mother is an ardent/ blind follower.
Some observations of her that seem like a result of being affiliated to this cult:

All those who eat non vegetarian food and consume alcohol are less superior beings and are sinners in the eyes of GOD and thus will be punished.

All those who accept the RSSB philosophy are good beings and worth intercating with. Others are just wasting their time and energy on this planet. According to her a person cannot be a good human being until and unless he/ she has no affliation with RSSB.

I often see her not walk her talk. She is always sermonising and feels intimidated when people pay less or no attention. I feel faith/ religion are very personal matters but when I see her, I feel it is all about the ammount you can verbalise rather than internalise...

She often tells everyone she meets "give up lust for everything" but in her own case I find her extremely materialistic and pompous

Even on the busiest day of my life, it is important for me to drop her off at the satsang. I feel sometimes that a person who cannot feel for other person's schedule, priorities has not gained anything from the satsang. Satsang is not about going and sitting under a roof for 45 mins a week but the ability to imbibe something from that forum/cult.

She often brainwashes me to understand that my life till date has been quite a waste without having followed RSSB.If I want MOKSHA/ NIRVANA in my life,. I should join this cult.

I find her extremely closed to suggestions, discussions and her understanding of sprituality is quite shallow. It is more often an esteem factor rather than a calling for her... She is cheerful meeting and being with people who relate to her satsang. All others are met with some kind of reluctance and social discomfort.

RSSB is her all time sounding board but when she is encountered with any challenge in her life, she immediately opts for advise and help of tantriks/ witch craft/ and other superstitious rituals. I feel embarrassed questioning her about about her hypocrisy and I am waiting for the day when realisation will dawn on her.

I have heard that RSSB is against the practse of idol worship but I see her guruji/ maharaj pose in the best of cashmere shawls and the satsang bookshops sell his laminated pictures all over the world. If I were the guruji...I would have ensured that no idol worship means no idol worship. She has some 8-9 pictures of her guruji in her three bedroom flat and whenever I visit her, she will put two picture frames of his by my bedside and I just feel too claustrophobic but yet helpless. Since guruji's pictures are not sold in the open market, he is the boss of the dera/ any satsang hall and should ensure that his pictures don't get sold. But when he achieves obnoxious amount of publicity with those pictures... who and why will the man refuse.

Whenever I used to call her on the phone, she wouls start by saying "radha soami" to which I would always say goodmorning etc. I believe a cult/eligion of today should widen my horizon and not make me so timid that only a radhasoamite can bring a smile to my otherwise grim expressions.

Her son and also my husband seems rational with his beliefs and thus is quite neutral to this school of thought. This makes her angry and she feels that we both as a couple are moving towards our doomsday. He respects the fact that his mom can/ should have her freedom and choice but not impose in on others.

I initially respected her for her belief/ ideas and whatever she thought was good for her. I feel sad that no longer do I have tolerance for school of thought since it has been imposed on me so heavily that I repel the thought of that guruji.

She would often sing hymns/ songs in praise of guruji and would insist that I too learn but I don't think I have received her requests too well. I am often made to pray with his books and I find it the most unpleasant experience... As and when I travel from India to the US, I am forced to carry his books which quite frankly don't have space in my house because it was pushes too hard.

I want to talk to this guruji and tell him that I have met scores of his disciples and am frustrated to have not yet come across a single truly enlightened soul. If he just wants more following, more centres and more money through this cult, he should call it not a faith but a business. He should get it listed as a public ltd compant on NASDAQ.

Whenever a teacher /professor/ trainer taught us a skill or imparted some knowledge, the only way of gauging his/her performace would be the end result in terms of the students thought clarity, future careers etc similarly if this guruji has been sermonsing many people for the last so many years, there should be a change in these people. To become better humanbeings, have a more global/ tolerant mindset and a more cheerful attitude. I have failed to see all these qualities in many followers I ahve met.
HOW AND WHY WILL I RESPECT THIS SCHOOL OF THOUGHT?
WHY WILL I BE TEMPTED TOWARDS joining it or even giving it a patient hearing.
It is said that by seeing the kids you can predict what the parents are... I can well see and understand for myself as to what the guruji would be if the followers/ disciples are so blind and narrow minded.

But hats off guruji... inspite of a whole lot of rational people resiting the growth of your cult...you see to be doing a good job at ensuring a good enough following.

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Ms. Mann,

Your mother-in-law seems very much like far too many Christians I have met.

Robert Paul Howard

[Pam]

Brinda,
Your mother-in-law is behaving very poorly. Please be clear to her your disinterest in Sant Mat. Please do not let her pressure you. As you describe it, she does not demonstrate the personal qualities that any spiritual teaching would hope to inculcate in its followers. But show your firmness in a loving way, as much as possible. The current R.S. teacher emphasizes that anyone interested in following the Sant Mat teachings should resist and should study the criticisms of it.

[tao]

Brinda,

The Radha Soami Cult satsangis are no different than any other other cult fanatics. They are generally intolerant and self-righteous, and foolishly regard outsiders or other paths as being spiritually inferior.

You do not need to join any weird dogmatic religious cults like the RS in order to have a genuine spiritual life and achieve the highest bliss and peace of Self-realization.

Do not listen to blind cult followers and believers or to their leaders, or let either of them influence or pressure you in any way.

Listen only to the wisdom of the authentic enlightened Sages.

[tao]

Dakini,

You wrote (in quotations):

"Along the way of progress."

You evaded the question, or rather, you did not fully answer it. So again, "progress" to what exactly? What exactly are you trying to progress towards?

"I'm not a follower of Sant Mat."

Thats fine, but don't buy into everything you read in Sant mat literature. Most all of it is entirely misleading and unnecessary baggage.

"Those I have witnessed who feel like they are on a power trip because of their 'transcendent' experiences seem too attached to the experiences themselves"

You may have, but then that is your perception, and it is also a conclusion that does not apply to all.

"if one finds oneself bragging, then it can be used as a self-indicator"

Perhaps, but I don'treally see how that relates to this issue.

"'Is the seeker interested in accumulating spiritual power or interested in truth?'"

Yes, that is always the question.

"What 'pushes away' people is relating experiences for egocentric reasons"

Who's to say? Actually nothing "pushes" people away. People's reactions are entirely their own doing and responsibility.

"People have questions - is what I am experiencing a natural phenomena of meditation, etc?" "Some ppl have questions about their meditation..."

Perhaps, but experiencing "phenomena" is not the same as realization.

"Some ppl can get sidetracked along the way, thinking they are making progress, but instead are accumulating spiritual power.

???

"This is what I mean by "madness" - it can create temporary instability. So it helps to have a teacher."

But that is not what I meant. I meant that the over-all orientation of Sant mat is withdrawn, dissociative, dualistic, and life negative.

"Mystics: Those who believe they have encountered the Divine or experienced Reality. St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Hildegarde, Meister Eckhart, Blake, Catherine of Siena, Tolle, etc., etc."

Your particular definition is much broader and considerably different than the Sant mat concept of mysticism.

"I don't agree that only a fool would spend a lifetime seeking the Truth. "

But I did not say "spend a lifetime seeking the Truth". I said: "Only a fool would spend an entire lifetime hoping for some result that never comes."

[Tucson Bob]

Tao: Who are some of the authentic enlightened sages you mention in your comment above to Brinda? This is not at all intended as a challenge. I just wonder who you think might be one. Ramana Maharshi? Ed Sullivan? Maybe you know about someone interesting I've missed.
Radha Swami,
TB

[Paul]

Tucson Bob,

It seems you missed Tao as the highest of highest authentic enlightened sage, since he comes out with his slanders so hard for anyone who utters a single positive word for Santmat. May be he is enlightened but hides his enlightenment behind the veil of slanders.

Paul

[Tucson Bob]

Tao has a tough style and can be a bit merciless. I think he enjoys verbally slapping people around a bit. He relishes the debate, that's for sure. But it shouldn't bother you much if your beliefs are rooted in solid ground. If the sun is shinning, and I know it, Tao can call me the world's foremost ass for thinking so, but that doesn't change anything. It just makes him wrong. So what? But if I think the sun is shinning, and I'm fundamentally not sure about it, then his cutting remarks may be disturbing or create questions in my mind. This can be useful. Ultimately you may thank him, grudgingly perhaps. Carry on Tao.

[tao]

Sant mat is an obscure, dogmatic, authoritarian, and excessively patriarchal religious guru-cult that very much needs to be hammered down for its abusurd and bogus claims as being the true "path of the saints" and its guru's as being "gihf" (god in human form). Only poor ignorant and/or gullible fools would follow such nonsense.

[Paul]

Tucson Bob,

I really appreciate your post above when you said "If the sun is shinning, and I know it, Tao can call me the world's foremost ass for thinking so, but that doesn't change anything. It just makes him wrong."

So, this tells me that all he/she (Tao) says about Santmat is completely baseless, wrong and incorrect. But certainly Santmat way of life is not meant for everyone and all are entitled to their own way seeking and one must seek without slandering or musing others. As the basic foundation of spirituality is "Love, respect and tolerance for all".

On that note I say to the visitors and owner of this blog please note that Santmat way of life has been working out for me in my daily life and I can forsee that I will continue to do so for the rest of my life. I really appreciated Mr. X's post - all he said was was simply "The Truth".

As they say "it is easy to talk, but extremely difficult to walk the talk." When you walk the tak "The Truth" is bound to be revealed as it has been for me by following Santmat way of life. No offenses, slanders and vernal slaps please! But if still someone feels loke verbal slaps - BOTH MY CHEEKS ARE AVAILABLE and READY!

[Roger]

Paul,

Thanks for your comment.

I have a question, regarding other "Sant Mat" groups. Through some Internet searches, I found numerous other groups. The other Sant Mat groups have their own Guru or Master.

My question, "Can One find "The Truth" through any of these Sant Mat groups?"

My question, "Could you join another group and find "The Truth" just as easy?"

I'm just curious as to your thoughts on the matter. This is not an attack question.

Best wishes,
Roger

[Paul]

Roger,

When I was in front of Babaji just the day before of my initiation - I had two questions - (1) How do I know that you are the perfect master? and (2) Can there be more than one perfect living masters at the same time? - At that time, when I stood in front of him I knew that he was the master for me. I don't even know what he replied as I was so engrossed in admiring his beauty and every cell of my body knew that he was/is the master for me and certainly it is true that there can be multiple perfect living masters at the same time, as we know through history that Guru Nanak and Kabir were contemporaries. As Christ has said (paraphrase) my sheep recognize my whistle and they come running to me. So, the fact of the matter is that though there can be more than one perfect living master but one will go to the one meant for him/her and one knows for oneself.

I do listen to and watch discources of other Santmat groups and find that they say the same thing. I have friends from the other Santmat group too and I do meet them and join them, if I am free and can, when they invite me to go with them. I see no difference in the teachings, may be a slightly different approach to the same truth. So, when I join these other groups I always have my Master in my mind who I contemplate on - would I adopt another master/s and have multiple Masters - certainly 'No'. I find it so very difficult to walk the talk of just one master, therefore I cannot have another master. I find myself incompetent to serve one master with complete surrender, how could I possibly then serve more than one, the same way as one cannot put two feet in two boats simultaneously. So, the long answer to the short question is - Yes - I could join another group and see/evaluate the pros and cons without biases but in the meantime I would not compromise my current way of life and in the end though all masters are one and the same from the One, but still my master is and always will be the master for me.

Now "Can One find "The Truth" through any of these Sant Mat groups?" - As Christ had said "seek and Ye shall find you" - so the bottomline is that whatever step you take towards finding "The Truth" no matter through whichever "Mat" or "ism" you belong to - in the end Ye will find you as long the only burning desire is to find "Ye" or "The Truth", of course while living a normal life in this world and performing all your duties and discgharging all your obligations to the best of your ability. Trust me it is not easy to understand. It is one thing to have the knowledge and it is yet another thing to have its understanding and yet another thing to walk the talk of any "mat" or "ism".

[tao]

Paul,

First, you don't strike me as one who has really 'walked the walk' at all. In fact, you seem quite naive and inexperienced, as well as clearly lacking in the deep insight and wisdom that is derived from authentic spiritual realization which comes from traversing the path of Heart.

Just because you engage in the Sant mat version of shabda meditation practice and parrot its dogma, does not make you one who has truly 'walked the walk'.

Second, go right ahead and waste your life on meaningless Sant mat nonsense if you wish. For now you see as if through a glass darkly, but someday later on in years to come you may indeed eventually come to see and understand more clearly. I hope for you that that day comes sooner and not later.

And along these lines, here's something which I borrowed from another site which I edited and improved somewhat, and which I think might be appropriate for you in this instance:

The air we breath is God
The food we eat is God.
The ground we stand on is God.
The people all around us are all God.
The animals, the plants, and everything living and animate, or inanimate, is all God.
The mountains, the soil, and the dust, from the biggest rock to the smallest particle, is all God.
The vastness of space is God.
There was only one Being.
There is still only one Being.
There will always be only one Being.

When anything dies it undergoes pain, but other than that, nothing happens.
Nothing has ever happened to you... ever.
In death it only hurts for a short while, or a long while, and then... nothing is wrong.

We come from God, we are God, and we return to God automatically.

The ground or substance of this planet, and everything on the planet both living and non-living, and even the entire space is the actual body of God.
The energy for all the stars is God's own energy.
The earth, water, fire, air, and ether, is all God.

When we eat, we eat the body of God, it is all prasad.
When we live and work, and strive for truth, we do seva for God.
Everything here is all only service to God. Everyone is serving God in some way or other. It cannot be otherwise.

The five holy names in Sant Mat mean:

1. God is the light in all, and is all.
2. God is the only causal being.
3. God is the only spiritual being.
4. I and God are one.
5. God is Truth.

If you repeat this using it in your own language, you will become God realized very soon.

If you repeat this in some lanquage that you do not understand, it will be a lifetime of blind and tedious mumbling.

Do you need initiation into a cult to know God? No.

It does not matter if God knows God's own self or not, or if God worships God's own self or not, because no matter what one does, at death they automatically go back to God... even dogs and ants.

We never have left God, nor can we ever leave. We are always in and of the ocean of God, and have never departed from it.

Meditation is only a means to bring openess, clarity, and peace to life, and to try to lessen the pain at the time of death. After that, everyone automatically returns to (remains in) God.

Everything is God, and there is no difference.

[Tucson Bob]

Paul, as a former RS'er I say heed Tao's words. Well said. See, he can be nice.
You already are what you are seeking.

[Paul]

Tao,

Very well said. Indeed you are right when you say that I am inexperienced and naive. In spirituality naiveness, inexpereince and innocence, purity and being untainted like a child can be a real bliss! Wish I could become like that child again so that the Father can reveal that I am already in His lap. From your note above it is also very clear that you are a Sant Mat initiate and you are at the the stage of enlightenment when all you see is God and God everywhere and in everything. This is the ultimate state one's God being. I have high regards for you. You are doing a great seva or service.

If everything is God than I wouldn't call any "Mat" or "ism" - "A cult" because one of the meanings of a cult is "a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader" So, if this is the case and if everything is God i.e. Truth then I would not call any "Mat" or "ism" - a cult. The basic foundation of all "Mat" or "ism" is the same underlying "Truth."

Thanks for the refresher on the meanings of the five holy names in Sant Mat.

1. God is the light in all, and is all.
2. God is the only causal being.
3. God is the only spiritual being.
4. I and God are one.
5. God is Truth

Today, I learnt the meaning of the five words even better than I knew it before so clearly, however, I still prefer to repeat them in the language given to me following the analogy of today's computer day and age. If my "password" to login is "salvation" in English I caanot type in "Nirvana" or "Mukti" or "Moksha" (all have same meaning in other languages) to access my computer. Also, in some languages there are more than one word for the same thing. For example, in Hindi - Water can be called as either 'pani' or 'jal'. So, if my password to access my coputer is 'pani' I cannot access it by tying 'jal'.

Therefore, I would not remain entangled in words or languages - if God is all pervading, all powerful, all knowing, all creator then He is beyond any words or languages or expressions. I needed a teacher for myself and when I was introduced to Sant Mat my intellect was satisfied, so I took initiation and during the initiation I received 'the five words' in Indian language as "my passwords" to receive openess, clarity, and peace to life and go beyond pain or pleasure so I am exercising my freedom of choice to repeat them in the same language as my system administrator authorized me to repeat. However, spirituality is also beyond repeating some five words day and night like a parrot - it is beyond repition - it is a way of life - it is about Love, Love and Love for ALL. As in the end 'God is Love and Love is God.

Regards and well wishes,

[Roger]

Paul,

Thanks for your reply,

You mentioned in your comment, that you had 2 questions. I'm guessing, those 2 questions were retorical? Do you know from somewhere that the Master would agree to the use of the word, "Perfect?"

Goofy brained, me. Now, I will spend the next week studying the word, "Perfect," and it's meaning and usage as associated with the Master.

In addition, further in your comment, you stated that all the Sant Mat groups, "Say the same thing." I wonder, "Why don't all the Sant Mat groups just come together and form One spiritual group?" If this coming together is a good idea. Would the different Masters agree to that? Why the need for so many Masters? This might tie into the word, Perfect.

My questions, in this comment are food for thought. I'm not atttacking you. I'm just curious.

Best wishes,
Roger

[Sam]

The function of a Guru is not for followers to follow blindly as most people do in the various religions.

The first step is to believe in the Guru (not self appointed ones) I mean a LIVING MASTER One that has achieved self and God realization and can also appear in the inner planes to you.

After the Guru has guided the disciple for some time and progress has been made to the 3rd eye, then the Guru introduces the student to the eternal son of God (the radiant form ) which is in every human being - the 3rd eye.

once this connection is made you are on your own trip. Don't forgot everyone is a son of God as well. The only difference is that the Guru(talking about those that have achieve the 5 heaven and above - Eight regions in all) has achieved God Realisation whilst the student is still on the journey to becoming God realised.

The caveat is that if you do not get a Guru from the highest plane you could be deceived.

Dont forget all religions deal with the mind, whilst a God path deal with the Soul. The danger is that where there is too much outside influence on any path - sant mat included, it could devolve into a religious path.

All paths are necessary both light paths such as religion and sound paths such as sant mat.

A light path can only take you to the second heaven whilst a sound path can take you to the 8th. All light path deal with duality (good and bad, love & hate etc) whilst in a sound path everything is experience that evolves the soul - both good & bad. In a sound path there is no good & bad , only a point of view ie experience.

Everyone is on a long journey back to GOD. some have finished their education in the lower worlds and are ready to go back and some are just beginning, whilst some are in the middle of their journey. so there is no right or wrong just where each one resides currently in consciousness.

As already stated by one contributor everything devolves from God and eventually evolves back to it.

thanks

[Manjit]

Dear Sam,

What you have presented above is the same old RS dogma that I'm sure everybody here is not only aware of, but thoroughly intimate with.

Indeed, Brian, whose site this is, was a satsang speaker and book author for RSSB.

The point is, many people no longer believe the above dogma. Indeed, many of us now see it as total nonsense.

What, precisely, distinguishes the above myths from the myths of Christianity or Islam, for example? Nothing, I put it to you.

Lastly, what actual personal experiences do you have to validate the above statements? Please share.

There's enough of personally unknowing people spreading myth & dogma as if it is the truth already!

[Tucson Bob]

Sam said:

"The function of a Guru is not for followers to follow blindly as most people do in the various religions..." and then Sam said, "The first step is to believe in the Guru.." - -

To believe in the guru IS to follow blindly, otherwise there is no need for belief (faith).

Then Sam said: "The caveat is that if you do not get a Guru from the highest plane you could be deceived." - -

How can you possibly know that your guru really is from the highest plane and that you are not being deceived? This question came to my mind often when I was learning about Sant Mat decades ago, but I ignored it and did not face it honestly.

In my opinion, is not enough that others say the master is the highest or that his teachings are supported by tradition and scripture. How do you know that others really know for sure that the master is the highest, that they are not being deceived, or that the scriptures and traditions are correct?

As I said in another comment to Rakesh, an art teacher can SHOW you their technique and work. You can verify their skill and KNOW that they have a certain level of ability. No faith is required. However, a master can only CLAIM to have a certain attainment which requires FAITH and BELIEF on your part until you get to the master's level and can verify it. He can say that he can take you there but what if, after a lifetime of devotion, adherence to strict vows etc., it turns out the master's attainment is not the highest, he couldn't take you there, and his teachings turn out to be false?

Follow Sant Mat if you feel it is right for you, but I suggest being honest with yourself. It's your life. This is it, the real thing and not a dress rehersal.

[Osho Robbins]

Sam,
When you talk about faith, you are already advocating blindness.
In sant mat this reaches ridiculous levels of madness.
One example is Charan Singh. When he was given the spiritual mantle - he was upset because he KNEW that he was not a "saint" in the sant mat sense. He was not living is Sach Khand.
Yet - despite all he wrote - people continue to follow. Why? Is this not madness. According to radha Soami's own teachings - only a guru who has attained sach khand can become a true successor. Yet - Charan Singh clearly said he had not attained - which means he is not a perfect master in the sant mat tradition. Yet why would people still follow? If this is not madness - i don't know what is!

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear Osho Robbins,

Do not misinterpret the humility of Charan Singh by saying "One example is Charan Singh. When he was given the spiritual mantle - he was upset because he KNEW that he was not a "saint" in the sant mat sense. He was not living is Sach Khand".........

I can not fathom the depth of a river without going into it, if no other way is availbale. All other ways will involve interpretation which will depend upon my faith and confidence in them.

I can only quote " IF SOME BODY SAYS THAT I HAVE UNDERSTOOD A MYSTIC COMPLETELY, TULSI KEEP YOUR HANDS ON YOUR EARS"; because a mystic's words are to experienced. Mystics have always projected themseless as the servants of God's creation.

If I have not seen antarctica despite my best efforts, it does not mean that it does not exist. I may loose my whole lifetime in making efforts to see antarctica.

I hold no authority to critisize you or anybody on this blog.

I regret to elaborate my experiences which can not be confined to words.

In any case, I am probably the worst of all of you on this blog.

with loving regards,

[projectnaad]

yo folks might find the following web link of interest

www.ProjectNaad.com

[Marie Mibbi]

My daughter has just informed me that she is a follower of Santmat. I live with a very open mind and I'm very respectful of others choices, however, I have not seen her in four years when this meditation practice started. She has recently started to speak with me over the phone. I would like to know if ostrasizing your family is part of this practice? I read earlier that santmat members are not to put up pictures of family members. That does not make sense to me. I do not follow santmat, but through my own spirituality which includes meditation, community service, compassion and giving this seems to me as a conflict in values. Why can't you put up a picture??
I would greatly appreciate an explanation on Santmat family values. One should be able to apply the compassion, light, and love brought forward to everyday life. Blessings,

[tucson]

To Marie,

Involvement with religious cults can often cause a person to cut off ties with friends and family. However, this is not encouraged in SantMat where it is taught to do your duty to family and maintain harmonious relations. You might gently remind your daughter of this.

In her zeal to follow this path your daughter may feel that involvement with "worldly" people, which from her point of view can include friends and family, is a distraction from the discipline of the path. I have known satsangis to take this extreme position and it is disheartening for those who care about them.

I sense that there are deeper issues at play here than her involvement with this path. In your contacts with your daughter be careful to express your feelings in a way that is not overbearing and judgemental even though you say you don't do this. Simply be clear that you love and care for her and would like to have more contact with her but not to the extent that it interferes with her life, practice and beliefs. Give her the space to come back into your life gradually, one step at a time.

Once a follower of this "path", I have had no association with SantMat since the early 90's, but I do maintain friendship with several satsangis. I have never heard of any prohibition against putting up pictures of family members. One friend is the secretary of her general satsang and has pictures of family members on display in her house.

You can't force her to change her beliefs and behaviour, but you can convey an attitude of understanding and patience that will help improve communication and relations between you and your daughter.

Best wishes

[kamal]

I find your all your comments and judgements amazing.
It seems that you are the higher source and have all the answers.
Why do you have to slander if you do not believe in others faith or beliefs.
They are following their freedom of choice so let it be.
Who are you to judge?
Learn to live and let live.

[kamal]

To Marie Mibbi

Sant Mat is not a religion.It is a way of life.
There is nowhere in the teachings that stops us from hanging pictures on the walls etc.
It is discouraged to pray to a picture as this creates idol worship.
This is a path of love and do not encourage one to break ties with each other as the spirit of god lives in all of us.
She could be passing a phase in her life.

Give her love and understanding.

[Heidyeblin059198]

goggles

[aloe]

Sant Mat post
I read some of these posts with some sadness. I was initiated by Charan Singh and followed him for 23 years. After 13 years among older initiates who were a joy to be around, my life in a good discipline, the next 10 years were a gradual revelation that Sant Mat was false.

It had started earlier, as once in a while someone would mention something that was out of order about Sant Mat. I would tuck these objections in the attic of my mind, thinking them to be exaggerated rumors.

Then I got to know younger Satsangis who went in and out of marriages, who acted oddly after being at the Dera, and a Representative who encouraged devotees to smuggle merchandise into the Dera via their suitcases.

Then there was my trip to the Dera, to hear Gurinder Singh. My roommate and I would write down what he said during the daily meetings for Westerners in a Yurt as soon as we got to our rooms, so we would not forget anything. We even matched notes. The only word we disagreed upon was “that”.

I thought he’d leave out the “that” in “so that” and she felt he must speak correct English and had put that word in.
What surprised both of us was that Gurinder Singh answered someone who mentioned getting out in four life times (liberation from the material regions into the pure spiritual regions). Gurinder Singh said “I never said that!”

No wonder he will not be taped. He doesn’t know what the Sant Mat books say and does not want us comparing notes!

The other thing that surprised us was when he said that meditation results were “exactly the same as a drug trip.” The “only difference is, that a drug trip is unnatural, forcing your way inside. Meditation is the natural way inside.” Why this impacted me is that, unlike most Satsangis, I had not taken drugs and was very much against it.

I met a man shortly after the above exchange and he said that he had taken drugs and fully agreed with Gurinder Singh. In fact, he felt vindicated for using them, in the beginning, because of what Gurinder Singh had said. This is why I remember the incident so clearly. Two others besides myself heard him say this.

Another time a lady came up behind me as I was looking at the photograph of Nimi wearing Rajasthani jewelry with her father, Charan looking lovingly at her in the then new book Legacy of Love. She said curtly, “So that is who I bought that jewelry for!” I looked at her, astonished. She said “And with my money!” Then she walked off. This was on a United States Sant Mat property.

In the early 1980’s at a Sant Mat potluck, a pretty young lady in Salwar and Kamiz outfit came near me. She was obviously in a bliss state. She said, “Master is all love.” I smiled. Then she said, “I spent the night with him in his bedroom and he is all love, all love.” Upright me said, “Wait a minute. You spent the night where? “In his bedroom…” Before she could sing song the “love, love” thing again, I said “That is not proper!” She suddenly grasped her face in her hands and said “OH, I want my life back! I just want my life back!” She turned and literally ran away.

I was in a Western Representative’s home and he asked the group to volunteer to take some merchandise to the Dera. I volunteered and asked what I would be taking. He said that the package would be wraped. I said “What about customs?” Do you know what he said? He said “We don’t think about that.” I said, “But I will have to go through customs”. He said, “No, I don’t want you. You are not suitable.”

Later I read about the smuggling that was the usual way for Dera to stock its computer room with computers and its hospital with medical supplies. I guess that quarter billion dollar business was not up and running yet, and Gurinder could not pay the customs duty? Evidently this also went on under Charan.

Bible verses of God revealing Himself to mankind ran through my brain. Reading the Bible again I was shocked that Jesus said that he was God (that is what the Son of God means in Jewish. It means you are God. That is what was so shocking to the Sanhedrin. They did not like Jesus claiming to be God. It was not in their plans for a material kingship type Messiah). My New Age upbringing had always stated that Jesus never claimed to be God!

Then there is Genesis, where the Satan as the serpent tempts the Adam and Eve with the path of becoming God through the path of knowledge—just like a Guru, my, my!

But wait, mankind through the birth of a Messiah through Mary will crush the head of the serpent, God will make the sacrifice burning up everyone’s karma, Jesus will establish His Church which will present the Eucharist as a sacrament to join us in His sacrifice so we will go to Heaven and enjoy the Bliss of God according to our own capacity and the bad guys will be thrown in the prison of Hell, so that goodness will not have to put up with evil any longer! Well, it is different!

I was struck by the person who said they were equally as comfortable with Sant Mat as with Catholicism. Well, Charan’s daughter was sent to Catholic school so guess where Charan got his information in fusing some Catholic ideas onto Sikkism?

It is the Hindu way to accept contradictions, to accept nonsense. That is why Sant Mat can blithely preach that God emanated Himself in a churning motion and precipitated the world out of himself.

A rock is as god- like as a Guru. The only difference is that the rock is unconscious that it is God and the Guru is conscious that he is God. Then Sant Mat can turn around and say that God as Divinity created the material world and God transcends the creation. Both are equally true: the creation is God and the creation is transcended by God. The creation always existed and God also made the creation out of nothing. There, everyone can be happy in what they believe. Just believe whatever you want, even both at the same time!

The only problem with this is that there are a few of us left who want the truth, just like the lady I heard at Dera, crying, saying “Master, you always speak the truth, don’t you? People are saying that you do not speak the truth. But you are truth. You must speak the truth. Tell me that it is not true, that you do speak the truth. Tell these people that they are wrong!”

Master looked pityingly at the poor soul, who had obviously not been messed up enough to just accept evil and good as being the same thing, merely an act to get over with until the last karmic tit for tat is done. He said “Why do you care what they think?” Then he just looked at her, saying “I will be what you want me to be.” Well, how convenient!

The world, my dear friends, is a battle between good and evil. Satan is the great trickster and liar, determined to stop you from fighting on the side of good against evil. Satan has a lot of followers who try to tell you to just be indifferent to everything and stay in a happy, self-induced bliss state through all and you will merge with…..WHAT? Merge with what? With whatever you want that what to be?

Few escape the New Age world. Very very few escape. Usually guru followers run after one guru, one New Age path after another. Even Catholicism has its New Age apparition. The current one is Medjugorje. Just type in Medjugorje/ documents , to learn the truth about that one.

Read Archbishop Lefebvre’s books especially Against the Heresies and The Mass of All Time for one who sees through paganism. This is probably your only escape route, as the Church is courting humanism, right now, and is confusing. Lefefbvre is never confusing. Read the Douay Rhiems version of the Bible as Jerome had manuscripts that are now missing. Thus his sources were older than what exist today, making his translation more accurate.

The 1500’s Rheims New Testement is hard to obtain, but possible. It is the literal Vulgate. Most are the 1700’s version and have a slight humanist slant to them, but it is still mostly intact. The real Christianity is quite austere and frugal in its required behavior. Very disciplined. That is why so many who need discipline follow gurus. The Church dropped the ball and made everything easy, which is not what disciples need. But Lefebvre does not. He follows Jesus, one of the few.

God’s plan is different from the New Age. Instead of humans inventing and discovering ways to be God, God reveals All to us and gives us a plan to obey so that we can adore God in His Realm and be happy forever. It is really a no- brainer, it is that sad tendency to keep rebelling that is the problem!

I hope this helps some of you to get over your deep sentiments of affection for Sant Mat. After the deep pain of seeing the truth (praying to Jesus to keep away all false visions really helps) and the embarrassment of being tricked, there is life after Sant Mat.

Few will understand you, but there are some out there who will leave the New Age behind for good, and not simply carry it with them. Just remember, however, that the entire world is against Jesus. Most of the world is much more accepting of Masonic type New Age stuff than it is of a true Jesus. The world loves humanistic Christianity; it will tolerate the moral discipline of a Satsangi, but it will never tolerate the Sacrifice of the Mass. Try to see the Infinity of God and not the chasm of world. Pax Christi

[Brian Hines]

aloe, thanks for the interesting comment. I added some paragraph breaks and corrected a few misspellings. You write well, though. Nicely said.

So you've gone from Sant Mat to Christianity? Personally, I don't find Christian theology any more believable than Sant Mat, but each to his own.

I suspect that if we had an accurate recording of what really went on during the life of Jesus, there would be as many instances of moral/ethical failings as are evident in the lives of "saints" today. The Bible has been sanitized, rewritten, heavily edited over the centuries.

[Marina]

What I find interesting about above comments is not the organizations or events that happen but the meaning we give them - or our own interpretation of where we are ourselves.

Was at my friends house the last two days helping her as she has moved house. We had taken 'Emily' out of her box (the name of the suite of furniture she bought) while arranging the sitting room. Because of work still being done in the house (new kitchen been fitted etc) we decided to leave 'Emily' with the plastic cover over her.

During the night, as renovations are in progress, we were sleeping in the same room on the same mattress on the floor and due to her loud snoring and her constant talking in her sleep, I woke about 4am, couldn't get back to sleep so decided to pay a visit to the loo and have a smoke.

I quietly, during the snores made my way out of bed and I heard my friend saying 'don't slip off the plastic!' in a loud coherent voice. Thinking she was talking in her sleep, I smiled and ignored her but I heard again, 'Do you hear me? Don't slip off the plastic when you are meditating or whatever you are doing!' I went down the stairs and had a conversation in my head that went something like this: 'Cheek of her! What does she mean telling me not to take of Emily's plastic? Does she think I am going to dirty it? She's an ungrateful and cheeky bitch!'
But seen as I wasn't planning on slipping off Emily's plastic and wasn't planning on meditating, I shook the whole thing off and went on about my business.

It was later on the next morning when somehow innocently it came up in conversation when she was asking me how I slept, I was telling her about her snoring and talking in her sleep and I happened to say to her 'here, the cheek of you telling me not to take off Emily's plastic'. She replied 'I DID NOT say that.' I told her she did and she said 'I said don't slip off Emily.....' and then the penny dropped. She told me she had been concerned that while meditating I might fall asleep (as if :) and slip off the chair and hurt myself. We laughed and of course had a conversation on how we interpret things, sometimes innocently, in a way that aint the truth!

"“I will be what you want me to be.” Well, how convenient! "

Totally agree with this. Or - you will be how I see you!

Marina

[Lance]

It is always confusing when considering religions and or spiritual practices, the dogmas, and fears assigned in the way of mystical rules and traditions are inconsistent at best,
following the words of saints past seems to be the root of this belief system and just as in any religion or belief system or spiritual practice it could be of benefit to distill and study and use your intuition to choose what is of the most value in Sant Mat practices to make the most of it,
it is true that the purists will be agitated and maybe even offended at such comments but it is each individuals responsibility to discern for themselves where or what wisdom really is and to not be so eager to follow the herd when it comes to a belief system that is supposed to be running your life.

[S]

Georgy,

I spent the time to go back and read all of your comments in previous blog posts and open threads.

You must think that we are all the dumbest people on the planet to believe that you are a non-initiate. I can understand why you would want us to believe that, though. If I were to copy and paste all of your previous pro-RSSB comments it would reflect VERY BADLY on the guru and the organization.