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April 07, 2006

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I just came across your post. You are right about Judas. He did the Father's will. Jesus' death was a part of the plan. So, also, was His resurrection. I don't know all that the gospel of judas covers but certainly you are welcome at my church to dialogue.

Taking this from the point of view that the universe needs these things to happen, I have always wondered how Jesus betrayed Judas. Removing the stigma of the sense of "betrayal," we are left with a simple dance between them, a dance of the tao, or flow, or chi -- however you want to think on it.
Our mysterious reflections now contain a Judas unafraid of death, unconcerned of persecution and reputation, who then... What? Collapses? Relapses? Or do we know? The story was suicide, but that story told of betrayal. Is there now a Judas that corresponds to Jesus as a New Testament Enkidu to Gilgamesh, or as King Mark to Tristan?
Or is the story a passion, as they say, where one has to give ones self away, just to be? Can Jesus and Judas be the same, a co-interstice taken apart for narrative's sake, but no less comlicated?
Now that the Catholic Church has for centuries used Judas to identify the sinner in all of its congregants, they may proceed to identify themselves as Jesus' confidante, a trusted friend, with power over his future. That would be a fresh change.

...Through many dark hours
been thinking about this
that Jesus Christ
was betrayed by a kiss.

But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
whether Judas Iscariot
had God on his side.

...Jesus loves me
this I know.

Bob Dylon 1964

Brian
As you say, according to Christian theology Jesus needed to die on our behalf for our sins to fulfill the divine plan.
So whats all the fuss about Judas and the Jews being blamed as Christ killers for nearly 2000 years!
If Christian fundies were being true to the theology they would have organised slap up feasts across the ages in honour of Judas and of the Jewish authorities of the day for a job well done!
They were truly the instruments of providence necessary to accomplish the required blood letting and atonement!
Yay Judas and Caiphas and the rest of the crew! Without them then no sacrifice and no salvation, so fundies should feel a debt of gratitude to these characters!
Of course the deeper reality is that we don't even know for sure that any historical Jesus lived or was crucified, let alone rose from the dead.
The whole thing is a hopeless mish mash of muddled and misunderstood mythology and mysticism masquerading as history.
Bring on the gospel of Judas,I look forward to some heretical reading real soon!

well, the problem as i see it is that most of those who support the jesus, gospel idea use the gospels to support their arguement.
the problem with that, is that the gospels themselves were written well after the event and no documents or writings were made at the actual time of jesus.

human beings have the mental capacity to to alter their brain state, ie through meditation, this is a scientific fact, its been measured. an altered state of consciousess, whereby the mind is relaxed, and open to suggestion. much like hypnosis.
once in this state, almost anything that is dreamt, imagined told, thought of or said can become real, or believed to be real.
if you take this along with superstition, dreams, fear, the unknown, a need to have answers, especially to the purpose of our being, then it is only natural that some of us will believe in the ideas that others propose, no matter how outlandish or improbable.

this sort of thing has been going on for mellenia throughout history in every concievable format.

the only reason that 'christianity' took a foothold and is still with us is solely due to the roman emprorer constantine making it legal and adopting the religion for his own political career.

people will believe what they want to believe regardless.

faith is blind obedience and closed.
science is the only way to go in order to be as sure as we can about anything in the universe.

if someone were to present a convincing arguement about any religion i would gladly follow, sadly this, in my opinion wil never happen, as all religions are born out of a need to know why, without question or reason.

each to his/her own.

Facts about Gospel of Judas:

1- All Christianity belief is based on stories, or news told by ancient people without any physical proof or evidence in what really happen, so if we find any historical paper or bible, it will silly to say if any of these papers conflict from bibles we have (Luke, Matthew, Mark, John), then we reject this papers!!!!!!!!. That shows that indeed Christianity is so weak religion that is completely based on stories without any other real evidence.

2- Islamic belief is based on the Quran, the Quran is keep preserved as the moment the prophet Mohamed die, the Quran is not only stories for the ancient prophets with their people, or rules and commands to follow, but Muslims believe that the Quran is the live miracle of Islam, to believe in Islam, you don’t say ancient people said for this prophet, he had miracles…., but in Islam, you have to discover it by yourself. The Quran has many scientific and numerical miracles, beside the literal and logical ones. (http://www.55a.net/firas/english/)

3- Any discovered ancient paper or found old bible, should at least match with bibles we have, but with the all founding historical papers, they don’t match with the existing bible, but they completely conflict!!!, these are not 1 or 2 papers, but indeed 4 ( Bernaba, Nag’ Hammadi Texts, Dead sea scrolls , and last found Gospel of Judas). (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/timeline_nf.html)

4- Muslims claim that bibles are modified and the message of the prophet Jesus is changed so that it show that the miracles Allah provide Jesus, was only to prove that Jesus is the God himself!!!!, so any found bible should at least match exactly with bibles we have, and to be authorized by the church, but what really happen that all of these bibles are completely rejected, and all we can see the protests by Vatican for publishing the last found bible, and their weird answer is if any of found bibles match, we will accept it, otherwise we won’t.!!!!!!

5- Most of people don’t know that all of these found bibles somehow match with the theory of Quran, even at some hidden parts of these bibles, the name of the prophet Mohamed is completely clear.

6- Muslims claims that Paul or one of Jesus’ disciples deceived and changed in Jesus message, and call with that message to Rome. After Rome became a Christian praetor, they change even more with that bible, so that the beliefs in Jesus match with the concept of gods and Son of God at this period. Roman church at Qustin Age then try to standardize bibles and concepts, that aim to kill and destroy any idea around that period that believe in Jesus as a human, or prophet but not a god, so they burn conflicted bibles, kill these believers and even modify other found bibles “Luke,..” so that they matched with the already modified one.

7- The believers of Jesus as a human or as a prophet try to keep their belief away from Roman church, so they hide their unmodified bibles. That explains why Da Vinci show his expression about Jesus and Marry Magdalene in secret as he was fear from Roman Church.

8- At the most earliest found bible “Gospel of Judas” I will get some word come from Jesus and Judas that is explained by Christians pops and the theory of Quran, and you can judge the difference.

Jesus tells Judas he will "exceed" the rest of the disciples "for you will sacrifice the man that clothes me."

Chris: Maybe Judas himself don’t bertray Jesus as we though, but Jesus asked Judas to deliver him to Romen soliders so that Judas helped him to take off his soul”

That is completely wrong, as Jesus said the man that clothes me, and don’t said the man that takes off me, taking in consideration the clear bertray of Judas!!!!!. OK, let us see the theory of Quran.

And because of their saying (the Jews in boast) “We Killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but THE RESEMBLANCE OF JESUS WAS PUT OVER ANOTHER MAN, and they killed that man. Those who differ therein are full of DOUPTS. They have no certain knowledge, i.e. they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, as Word of Allah, they killed him not (i.e. Jesus)

That means that Allah sacrifice instead of Jesus a man, who is really crossed and die, then Jesus asked from Judas to call roman soliders, that for that Allah sacrifice the man who cloth him, or the man who Allah will make his look like Jesus, so that Roman solider though he is”

Ok, let us see now some of verses in Quran about Jesus.

4.156- وبكفرهم وقولهم على مريم بهتانا عظيماThat they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
4.157- وقولهم انا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وماقتلوه وماصلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وان الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه مالهم به من علم الا اتباع الظن وماقتلوه يقيناThat they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4.158- بل رفعه الله اليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيماNay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
4.159- وان من اهل الكتاب الا ليؤمنن به قبل موته ويوم القيامة يكون عليهم شهيداAnd there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

5.110- اذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم اذكر نعمتي عليك وعلى والدتك اذ ايدتك بروح القدس تكلم الناس في المهد وكهلا واذ علمتك الكتاب والحكمة والتوراة والانجيل واذ تخلق من الطين كهيئة الطير باذني فتنفخ فيها فتكون طيرا باذني وتبرئ الاكمه والابرص باذني واذ تخرج الموتى باذني واذ كففت بني اسرائيل عنك اذ جئتهم بالبينات فقال الذين كفروا منهم ان هذا الا سحر مبينThen will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
5.111- واذ اوحيت الى الحواريين ان امنوا بي وبرسولي قالوا امنا واشهد باننا مسلمون"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Apostle: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'".
5.112- اذ قال الحواريون ياعيسى ابن مريم هل يستطيع ربك ان ينزل علينا مائدة من السماء قال اتقوا الله ان كنتم مؤمنينBehold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith."
5.113- قالوا نريد ان ناكل منها وتطمئن قلوبنا ونعلم ان قد صدقتنا ونكون عليها من الشاهدينThey said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."
5.114- قال عيسى ابن مريم اللهم ربنا انزل علينا مائدة من السماء تكون لنا عيدا لاولنا واخرنا واية منك وارزقنا وانت خير الرازقينSaid Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."
5.115- قال الله اني منزلها عليكم فمن يكفر بعد منكم فاني اعذبه عذابا لااعذبه احدا من العالمينGod said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."
5.116- واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوبAnd behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
5.117- ماقلت لهم الا ماامرتني به ان اعبدوا الله ربي وربكم وكنت عليهم شهيدا مادمت فيهم فلما توفيتني كنت انت الرقيب عليهم وانت على كل شئ شهيد"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
5.118- ان تعذبهم فانهم عبادك وان تغفر لهم فانك انت العزيز الحكيم"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

19.16- واذكر في الكتاب مريم اذ انتبذت من اهلها مكانا شرقياRelate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
19.17- فاتخذت من دونهم حجابا فارسلنا اليها روحنا فتمثل لها بشرا سوياShe placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
19.18- قالت اني اعوذ بالرحمن منك ان كنت تقياShe said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
19.19- قال انما انا رسول ربك لاهب لك غلاما زكياHe said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
19.20- قالت انى يكون لي غلام ولم يمسسني بشر ولم اك بغياShe said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
19.21- قال كذلك قال ربك هو على هين ولنجعله اية للناس ورحمة منا وكان امرا مقضياHe said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
19.22- فحملته فانتبذت به مكانا قصياSo she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
19.23- فاجاءها المخاض الى جذع النخلة قالت ياليتني مت قبل هذا وكنت نسيا منسياAnd the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
19.24- فناداها من تحتها الا تحزني قد جعل ربك تحتك سرياBut (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
19.25- وهزي اليك بجذع النخلة تساقط عليك رطبا جنيا"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
19.26- فكلي واشربي وقري عينا فاما ترين من البشر احدا فقولي ان نذرت للرحمن صوما فلن اكلم اليوم انسيا"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
19.27- فاتت به قومها تحمله قالوا يامريم لقد جئت شيئا فرياAt length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
19.28- يااخت هارون ماكان ابوك امرأ سوء وماكانت امك بغيا"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
19.29- فاشارت اليه قالوا كيف نكلم من كان في المهد صبياBut she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
19.30- قال اني عبدالله اتاني الكتاب وجعلني نبياHe said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
19.31- وجعلني مباركا اين ماكنت واوصاني بالصلاة والزكاة مادمت حيا"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
19.32- وبرا بوالدتي ولم يجعلني جبارا شقيا"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
19.33- والسلام علي يوم ولدت ويوم اموت ويوم ابعث حيا"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
19.34- ذلك عيسى ابن مريم قول الحق الذي فيه يمترونSuch (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
19.35- ماكان لله ان يتخذ من ولد سبحانه اذا قضى امرا فانما يقول له كن فيكونIt is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
19.36- و ان الله ربي وربكم فاعبدوه هذا صراط مستقيمVerily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
19.37- فاختلف الاحزاب من بينهم فويل للذين كفروا من مشهد يوم عظيمBut the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
19.38- اسمع بهم وابصر يوم ياتوننا لكن الظالمون اليوم في ضلال مبينHow plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest!
19.39- وانذرهم يوم الحسرة اذ قضي الامر وهم في غفلة وهم لايؤمنونBut warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe!

Ah Mad: Dude wake-up! This site is the Church of the Church-LESS... not some friggin moslem mosque where you steal an opportunity to post threatening religious doctrine and dogma from the Quran under the phony guise of Gospel of Judas commentary.

Truly, there must be a God. But not the way many of us believe. He would certainly not be the God of the BIBLE. That God is way to confusing, not to mention cruel and doun right hateful.
God has a part in all of us, is all of us, we are him/her. We are the co creators- the off spring of the God.
The BIBLE is way to limited in the ways of true God abilities. Why would God need a devil to keep his so called kids in check? That makes God out to be a whimp.
I believe every colture has a nugget of truth regarding the true God. If we would only silence our own embitions and listen to the voice of reason from within. Then the world would see God for who IT truly is.

Truly, God is just an idea... bt one that many believe in.

God has no part in anything, has nothing to do with any of us, and we are not him/her.

You (alexandra hoyt) may be, but I am not any "co creator", nor am I "the off spring of the God". Speak only for yourself.

There is no such "truth regarding the true God".

The world does not need to "see God for who IT truly is". God is just an idea in some people's minds, and just a word that some people use to try and make themselves appear right or religious.

The word, and the idea "God", is meaningless. Those who speak of God are trapped by words and ideas.


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