God-man or Asshole? The guru conundrum.

Ever since I met her, I’m been trying to convince my wife that I’m God. It just seems so obvious: I understand Windows XP and can fix her computer when something goes wrong; back when we used a VCR, I could program it to do whatever we wanted; I know how to hang a picture so it is centered perfectly over a piece of furniture.

Yet my husbandly divinity remains unrecognized. For some reason Laurel focuses more on such things as: my inability to put the kitchen sponge in its holder, rather than on the bottom of the sink; my incapacity to fold t-shirts properly and place them neatly in their designated drawer; my reluctance, after cutting off a slice of bread, to reintroduce the whole wheat loaf back into the bag where it is supposed to stay fresher.

Guess I should start calling myself a guru. Then my human failings could be construed as signs of my godliness.

This is what I learned by reading the May 2006 issue of the Western U.S.A. Newsletter, published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB)—America. Every month the RSSB representative for the Western states, Vincent Savarese, writes an article about some aspect of this organization’s teachings.

The issue that just arrived in the mail speaks about the guru as God-man, someone who has merged with God and so has no imperfections. If you want to know God, supposedly you have to be accepted by a guru.

The saints tell us that we need to find and associate with someone who is perfect. We say God is perfect and is absolute reality. But we haven’t seen or met God. Can we see that Perfect Being without an intercessor? Unequivocally all saints and masters say we cannot. We need a teacher who has met God and merged with God, an enlightened being, a God-Man, a Sat Guru, or Perfect Master.

Isn’t that amazing? Walking around on Earth are perfect beings who are incarnations of God, just as Jesus and Krishna were considered to be.

Why is it, then, that the multitudes don’t fall at their feet and worship them? What explains the fact that, back in the early 1990s, my wife got to sit just a few feet away from a purported God-man (Gurinder Singh Dhillon) and came away from a lengthy meeting with him saying, “I didn’t feel anything special. He just seemed like a regular person to me”?

Savarese offers up the reason:

Saints and mystics tell us only the soul is perfect and so also the Perfect Master. The Perfect Master is perfect within at all times and can be perfect outside if he wishes, but he guards his perfection very carefully…What is confusing to many people is that Masters may act forgetful, show fatigue or annoyance, may mispronounce a written name or call a female a male or vice versa.

Ah! This is exactly what I’ve been telling my wife! My seeming imperfections are just a necessary disguise to cover my Godliness. Otherwise, I’d be spending all of my time fending off wanna-be disciples who would desire to give me their devotion, money, and, in the case of young attractive women, their bodies. (Hmmmm. Now that I think about it, why would I want to disguise myself?)

So it turns out that there is no way to judge whether a guru is merged with God. If the guru acts perfectly divine, this is proof that he is an enlightened being. If the guru acts imperfectly human, this is proof that, in Savarese’s words, “He chooses to play the role of an ordinary man much of the time.” Why? Because, “If he didn’t he would attract all manner of miracle seekers and not the truth seekers he was meant to meet.”

Pretty good gig. Perfection means godliness. Imperfection also means godliness. It’s akin to a band being able to play as many off-key tunes as they wanted, because the audience would believe them when they said “We mean our songs to sound that way; if you are our fans, love the way we play them, not how you want to hear them.” Savarese writes:

For the disciple of the perfect Master, for the gurmukh, for the servant of the King, there is one simple and urgent rule…obedience. Logic and self-preservation, self-importance, must be set aside. He will provide everything for the thoroughly obedient disciple.

But not, apparently, for the disobedient disciple. As someone else put it, “He knows if you’ve been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake!” Santa Claus, guru, God: what’s the difference? They all reward obedience and punish independence.

The nagging problem, though, is that nasty old fly in the ointment: reality. If Santa Claus, guru, or God aren’t really what we believe them to be, what then? Does it make sense to keep believing in the absence of evidence? What makes children stop believing in Santa Claus? Is this a mark of increasing maturity or a disturbing loss of faith?

Which brings me to the question with which I began: is the guru a God-man or an Asshole? Perhaps these seem like harsh choices. Indeed, previously I’ve suggested another option, the guru as loyalist (adding to the three traditional “L” options of the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic).

However, upon further reflection I’m beginning to think that loyalist and liar belong together in the broader “Asshole” category. This reduces the choices to two: God-man or Asshole, assuming that lunatic doesn’t fit. I realize that this may offend those who consider that the guru is God.

But here’s why it shouldn’t: if the guru truly is God, notwithstanding the lack of evidence, he, like God, isn’t affected by anything I or anyone else says about him. Heck, the same is true even for ourselves, really. I get put down, insulted, and criticized all of the time by other people who comment on my weblog postings and send me emails. By and large, it washes off my back. With God, it wouldn’t even come close to his back.

On the other hand, if the guru really isn’t God, I don’t see how he deserves any other title than Asshole. What else should you call a man (or woman) who accepts the fervent devotion of his followers, who fails to dissuade those who consider him to be God incarnate, and who encourages absolute obedience to his dictates as the only means of spiritual realization—yet isn’t who he claims to be?

For many years, before I’d meditate in the morning I would carry on a one-sided conversation with the guru who initiated me: Charan Singh. “Good day, Master. How are you? Hope to see you soon, inside or outside, in the heavenly regions or when you come to visit us physically.” And so on.

I still talk to him. But in a different fashion now. “How’re you doing, Asshole? Don’t like that name? Well, either you’re God and am aware of me speaking to you, or you were a fake and aren’t aware of anything now that you’re dead. So, if you’re God, come and talk to me now that I’ve got your attention. If you’re not, then Asshole is the perfect name for a man who claimed to be a Perfect Master for almost forty years, but knew that he wasn’t.”

It’s a conundrum. I don’t know which is true: God-man or Asshole. All I know is that for me, seeing is believing. I’ll believe someone is God when I see unequivocal evidence of this (as to what that might be, all I can say is that I’ll know it when I see it). Until then, if you say you’re God, I’m going to use my alternative title for you.

Comments

[Nick]

Brian
As a Tai chi student I have full confidence in my instructor. I know that he has studied with Chinese and Western experts as I have seen videos of him practising with said. I have been on a workshop with him run by an internationally recognised instructor in the field. I trust his knowledge and skill as I have a very immediate demonstration of it when he corrects my moves and shows how they really should be performed. I can feel the difference when I practice the improvements he suggests.
My beef with RSSB is that the prohibition about discussing inner experiences extends to the guru himself. I really am not interested in the whole guru is god stuff. It only makes sense if everyone and everything is god. What bothers me is that the guru be a realiser in the tradition. He may or may not have gone the distance with shabd yoga. That don't bother me. Faqir Chand made a confession of his realisations and what he thought they meant. Good stuff. Healthy and honest.As students of an experiential technique we need a confession of attainment or something approximating it, from the teacher of the technique.
This is less than forthcoming from RSSB.
If I am going to enter into the abstract worlds of quantum mechanics or molecular biology, I need to feel assurance that my professor knows his/her stuff. Bearing in mind that I wouldn't as yet be able to test their full understanding at a beginners level, as my own understanding is being slowly formed, I need a confession of ability and realisation from them or about them. This is available in CV's and academic testimonies.
Again this is somewhat lacking in RSSB theologies.
So, where does that leave us? It leaves us back with ourselves to make the research and not worry too much about someone else's status, no matter how exalted they are said to be.

[yogaschmoga]

I keep marvelling at your logic. If BabaJi was to pick a friend it would be someone who is capable of such reason - who wants to be friends with limp toasties who say yeah with no evidence? Water off a duck's back: no-one can comprehend this, because the ego wants to be applauded, and everyone here lives in the realm of the ego.

The Gurus tell us that we are incapable of recognising a true Param Sant. In that, we have permission NOT to think of the Teacher as such.
What about following, in the meantime, the Sant Mat lifestyle?
The Sattvic lifestyle has existed long before the Masters, and the recommended lifestyle for satsanghis fall into this category. So it is a fairly safe choice, as far as lifestyles go.

In the meantime it is up to any inner asshole to reveal their true nature to us, until which we wil be in the dark. And of course there is the possibility of there being nothing other than dark too. Because until we've seen it...

INSIDE too we can be misled inside by any asshole, and our Guru is said to guard us against that. It is said that people on other paths have many more inner experiences - and obviously most of us don't, because our Guru doesn't want us to be seduced by the lower regions and He holds our 'credit for us'. Which goes to prove we are on the right path pretty much along the lines that the Guru can be perfect or imperfect and that just goes to prove his perfection.

So we are in a catch 22.

Which brings me to the underlying problem: So someone DESIGNED this system, where we go from life to life, without memory between lives, FOR EONS of this pain no less, without being able to learn lessons as a result. And then at some point we meet someone who might relieve us from something we didn't want to go through in the first place, and we can't recognise this 'one' but.... we are LUCKY. Hmmmm. I don't even want to think what unlucky would constitute.

[Edward]

I can't tell if you are being serious or satirical. The qualifications for godhead are kind of all over the road here. All I can really tell is that you are deeply miffed by RSSB on a very "stolen youth" level.
Are you interested in entertaining creative theology? There is a whole tradition of mystics in the west that taught immediate connection to God without intercession. The RC church burned Giordano Bruno for the idea in 1600.
There is a lot to be said for immediate knowledge via experience, but if you are going to narrow your focus to the American Standard of divinity as the only option available after RSSB, you will probably continue to be frustrated by the feedback you get from those you trust.

Omnipotent. Omnipresent. Did I stutter?

[Bob]

A few years ago, I picked up and read a copy of Mark Juergensmeyer's, Radha Soami Reality.

Appendix A outlines the Radha Soami genealogical family trees beginning with Shiv Dayal Singh for both the Beas and Agra branches.

When I first discovered the outline, I was stunned! I was amazed to see so many branches and lines of gurus in each tree.

But, the bottom line for me was and still is..."something is obviously amiss here". There is no frickin way all these people are the "real deal". In fact, I would put my money on the vast majority being fakes or "assholes".

And, I would also bet that "complete obedience" to the guru is a prerequisite for spiritual progress in the majority of these groups, as expressed in the RSSB newsletter.

Simply put, the guru is spun to be perfect no matter what, while the poor devotee has to suck it up. If a devotee doubts the spiritual status of the guru for one second or has feelings or questions regarding something in the teachings, then, according to the "science" of the soul, this devotee is spritually deficient.

IMO, the whole system is really rigged and the cards are stacked from the get go against the devotee, while the guru is elevated to Divine status without an ounce of proof.

Could you imagine attending a botany class in college where questioning and doubt were discouraged and the words of the professor were considered final or "inerrant" on the subject?

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Brian,
Wouldn't Plotinus maintain that you are as much an expression of the One as is any other existing entity in the All? Are you not (at least a fragmentary expression of) GOD - as likewise is your wife, your lawnmower, your vacation house.........and George W. Bush (and your neighbor's shed)? And, if I understand correctly, the same for all the assholes in the world/universe. Robert Paul Howard

[Nick]

A Guru who is an asshole. Where do I find such a one? As a King size asshole myself, I am sure that such a being will have some handy hints for me.
Am I being humble here or self judgemental? Not at all. What to be said of an ego personality that is perpetually confused and in fear. That is full of arrogance, rudeness and faux intellectualism all coupled with sexual obsession, general crankiness and paranoia. Isn't any ego a complete and utter asshole in reality?
So a complete asshole guru, being an expert in the field, should be able to give me some hints at hopefully lowering my average asshole quotient!

[Bill]

ALl of you are real idiots/bastards...born and brought up in America and donot know who your parents are (because that's how you are born)..so you mind is full of filth and nothing else.
Dont worry you'll get real taste of your stupidity when your time comes to go to GOD.Then you'll come to know who is GOD

[Bill]

All of you Lick,Dick,Robert bob are assholes

[tao]

Bill wrote:

"ALl of you are real idiots/bastards..."
"...so you mind is full of filth and nothing else."
"... you'll get real taste of your stupidity when your time comes to go to GOD.Then you'll come to know who is GOD"

"All of you" ... "are assholes"

How very sweet. Doesn't that just inspire ya? The above must certainly have been thought and written by a genuine Churchless Holey Ass, for only they can positively identify assholeys.

[Roger]

^^^Tao....your reply was so good.....Mr. Bill...reminds me of how wonderful the DELETE button truely is.

[simran bali]

well who are we to to say what is real or fake i think you and me alike should think how we can become better people ourselves insted of knocking others for their beliefs. oh and god-man or asshole, very funny, i think your an asshole and that god will sort you out in his own little way, you see to have alot of time on your hands why not sit on meditation. Put that energy to something usefull.
simran

[simran bali]

bob you are a mother fucker

[tAo]

things have been pretty mellow here for awhile. no pundits to kick around.

but of course it's only a matter of time until...

...until now, when here comes another one named "simran bali".

but this the nature of the game... or the sport I should say.

so I guess I will start this new round with a swift kick of the ball to simran, who said:

"well who are we to to say what is real or fake"

-- simran, you must mean who are YOU to say?

well now YOU must be joe king if you can't discern between what is "real or fake"!!!

is your real name joe king?

...but then of course, individuals who go around saying "god will sort you out in his own little way", are among the wisest on the planet.

...either that, or else you are another one of those bumbling radha soami douchebags exploding with irrational dawgma.

and "god" you say? are you like one of those brainless fools who actually thinks that he or she can speak for "god" and for what "god will" do? you must certainly not be.

you know... one who thinks that their so-called "god" gives them the right to call others "motherfucker", while at the same time espousing santmat and sadguru-bhakti?

you wouldn't be one of those, are you?

but anyway... be a good sport and stick around simran. we really do need someone like you to enlighten us all about the shruti, the smriti, the shastra, and the shabda.

so simran, please go ahead and kindly induge us with your illuminated wisdom.

[Juan]

If the master had million disciples, he would have an astral double of himself in every one of them, and that agent of the Master would look after the disciple at all times reporting to the Master here (IN INDIA)only in cases of "EXTREME EMERGENCY".

Makes me remember of the visit of Master Gurinder Singh, the present Guru of RSSB to Canary Islands (Spain) shortly after he succeeded in the decade of 90s.

A lady (initiated by Charan Singh) whose husband used to be Babajis collegaue (employee of Balanis,where Baba Gurinder Singh used to work before being a Guru)died while she was on SHOES Seva, due to heart failure at the same time in the Satsang Premises when Babaji was entering the Podium for Satsang.An ambulance took the body to the Hospital.I think some Satsangis in Europe know about this incident.

Babaji was informed of her death after few hours, to which he told the Sevadars that he should have been informed earlier as this was an emergency.

May be the Astral double was busy somewhere else or did not inform the master thinking that it was not an extreme emergency,or because the master was not in India.

Nobody talked of this death much with the visitors or other satsangis as it was said to be the Grace of the Master, and the Masters never appreciate the publicity and live like normal human beings.

Now whether Guru is God or Asshole, I don't know, but he is definitely not the one you think or what he seems to you.

[tAo]

Juan said:

"If the master had million disciples, he would have an astral double of himself in every one of them, and that agent of the Master would look after the disciple at all times reporting to the Master here (IN INDIA)..."

-- Are you kidding or what? Do you actually believe this sort of crap, or are you joking? I'll assume that you are joking unless you tell me otherwise.

"Makes me remember of the visit of Master Gurinder Singh, the present Guru of RSSB to Canary Islands (Spain) (...) A lady (...) died while she was on Seva, due to heart failure (...) An ambulance took the body to the Hospital. (...) Babaji was informed of her death after few hours, to which he told the Sevadars that he should have been informed earlier as this was an emergency."

-- Well if Gurinder was the all knowing omniscient GIHF (god in human form) sadguru that his naive and gullible followers so ardently believe and claim that he is, then he would have no doubt already known about the woman initiate's distress (and subsequent death) at the moment that it happened. But obviously, he isn't an all-knowing GIHF sadguru... he is just an ordinary bloke who is perpetuating a charade by merely pretending to be a sadguru.

"Nobody talked of this death much with the visitors or other satsangis as it was said to be the Grace of the Master"

-- Another example of the mental sickness and denial that pervades the RSSB sangat.

"Now whether Guru is (...) he is definitely not the one you think or what he seems to you."

-- What exactly do you mean by that? And how do YOU know what it is that other people actually "think", or "what he (the Guru) seems" to other people??

Please clarify your comments. Thanks.

[JJQ]

Simran Bali: 'bob you are a mother fucker'.

Wow, Simran, I'm really stunned by your compelling argument!

[tucson]

Juan said:

"If the master had million disciples, he would have an astral double of himself in every one of them, and that agent of the Master would look after the disciple at all times reporting to the Master here (IN INDIA)..."

--Good grief. There was a time when I believed exactly that. Now, I'm not saying I'm a mental giant, but I do (and did) have some reasoning ability and common sense. It is therefore, in my present frame of mind, absolutely astonishing to me that I would be gullible enough to accept such fantastic claims on the basis of books, satsangs and the heresay of the guru's followers. Not only that, but to base more than 20 years of life on such beliefs without a shred of objective evidence of its veracity is indeed asinine.

My only explanation is that we become extremely desperate for some anchor, belief system and explanation for our situation here on Earth as identified, mortal beings with no idea how we got here or where we are going.

Some of us may be fortunate enough to have an advisor who can awaken us out of this fantasy..."You fool! Don't be lured by the fancy web and charisma of this charlatan. Where is the evidence of such incredible power? Are you not insulted that this guru via his minions allows you to believe that he administers from some "radiant form" the accumulated karma of countless lifetimes of millions of followers, takes all of it upon himself, and guides them all through mystical, etherial dimensions beyond all mind and matter, whose scope dwarfs our universe of countless galaxies as the sun compared to a candle flame, with such names as Trikuti and Banwar Gupha where islands of exhalted souls are immersed in nectar and dwell in bliss and splendor beyond human comprehension?"

"Whoa, dude. You just can't see the truth of what the master says because you aren't marked. It's not your destiny, but go see him anyway because just the sight of him burns off the karmas of many lifetimes and will set you up for initiation in some future life when it is your time to go home."

"Well, maybe I am being a little hasty in my judgement. I mean, he does have a pleasant demeanor and his beard is neatly combed and his clothes are nicely pressed. Where do I sign up?"

[Roger]

"Babaji was informed of her death after few hours, to which he told the Sevadars that he should have been informed earlier as this was an emergency."

---Interesting that a Godman (Babaji) would find anything an "emergency." I would guess, the word would simply not be in his vocabulary. If this story is true, sounds like Gurinder made a major gaff. Shame on him. Most quality con-artist know the value of keeping their mouths shut.

[Juan]

Tao
I ‘ll try to clarify my comments. My common sense has never permitted me to believe all the BS of RSSB though I’ve been a marked soul and am quite close to the members of this organization since long.
The incident of Spain I put down to bring to the notice of Satsangis who are having inner experiences for their comments.
For a person like me with loads of bad karmas, gurudom is a business where the Guru has to sell after death sweet dreams and for that he has a well organized team, with a very good marketing strategy.
But for other illuminated souls Guru is God showering his grace and burning the karmas of his disciples, and even his earthly father in law, and the son of his Guru Charan Singh are dedicating their full time to Seva touring along the country to serve the sangat.

[tucson]

Juan, you wrote to tAo: "For a person like me with loads of bad karmas...Guru is God showering his grace and burning the karmas of his disciples.."

I was an active satsangi once upon a time. I used to believe what you wrote, but I can't verify these statements and no longer believe or have association with Sant Mat. There is not one bone in my body that tells me it is reasonable to believe this.

How do you know you have a load of bad karmas? How do you know Guru is God showering his grace and burning the karmas of his disciples? How does the guru accomplish the task of burning these karmas?

If you don't know for a fact by way of personal experience that what you say is true, why do you believe it? On what do you base this faith? Is it simply a tadition you accept because others believe it too?

[Juan]

Tuscon, you asked,

“How do you know you have a load of bad karmas”

This is what most of the true believers say and think, that it is the load of BAD KARMAS that makes me think that the activities of the Guru or organization seem to me as a business where nearly the whole family and relatives of the Guru are directly and indirectly involved with some or the other portfolio, and most of the teachings of RSSB have been framed for their easy governance.

Now how do I know Guru is God showering his grace and burning the karmas of his disciples? How does the guru accomplish the task of burning these karmas?

It is said in all the RSSB Satsangs that guru is showering his grace and burning the karmas of his disciples by initiating them, I don’t know whether he is doing his job sincerely or not, at least I have no evidence to it, so I can’t believe it to be true, but of course I don’t mind if others believe it to be true.

I am associated with Sant Mat, I still go to Satsang Programmes of Gurinder, but I have never been able to have a belief in its teachings, as in my opinion these so called Gurus have the right to live a good life, look after their children and defend their family business.

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Juan,

By lying?

Robert Paul Howard

[tucson]

Juan,

You have stated what I think is true and the key issue here. The gurus are simply operating the family business. I appreciate your honesty. In light of what you said, I wonder why you attend Satsang programmes?

I think Robert has raised a good point. Is it fair for the gurus to live a good life and look after their children by perpetuating a lie?

[Juan]

Tuscon,

I come from a family and circle where many are associated with RSSB, I was born and brought up in this environment, and so for the purpose of socializing Satsang programmes is a convenient place.

Robert's point,Is it fair for the gurus to live a good life and look after their children by perpetuating a lie?

It depends on the situation.

In my opinion, it could be the commitments made to politicians and bureaucrats who have played a key role in the rapid expansion of the organization has left the leader (guru) only with this option for the survival and further expansion of the organization, and to prevent hundreds of thousands of true believers from a shock.

[tAo]

I do NOT at all agree with Juan's rationale.

I think it is extremely faulty, and his response was rather evasive. Juan did not directly answer the simple question. Instead, he gave reasons, justifications, and lame excuses for the why and the wherefore of the guru's lies.

Juan re-phrased RPH's question in this way: "Is it fair for the gurus to live a good life and look after their children by perpetuating a lie?"

But then, to answer that question, Juan more or less beats around the bush and gives lame excuses by first saying: "it could be the commitments made to politicians and bureaucrats...".

And then, Juan basically actually admits that the gurus DO lie, but he says that its OK for them to lie, and he justifies that by saying: "...has left the leader (guru) only with this option for the survival and further expansion of the organization, and to prevent hundreds of thousands of true believers from a shock."

In other words, Juan is saying that it is quite alright (and necessary) for the guru to LIE, simply because it insures the survival and continuation of the "organization" (read: the family business), and it also prevents thousands of disciples & followers from "a shock"... From being shocked by the truth?

Absolutely un-fucking-believable ! This is the kind of bogus rationale that is so typical of so many satsangis.

Fyi Juan, those are terribly lame excuses for a guru to be LYING and deceiving hundreds of thousands of disciples and believers. There is no such reasonable justification for LYING. The guru has a responsibility TO the TRUTH first, and also to TELL THE TRUTH. Any guru/master who lies to his disciples, is a god-damn fraud and a sham. No question about it.

And it is THIS very kind of lack of honesty, evasiveness, denial, and use of false justifications that is so typical of not only santmat gurus, but their satsangi disciples as well.

Juan is another perfect example of someonme who is really still attached and is a follower and is in denial. Juan is really just straddling the fence by falsely pretending to be an Exer. The proof of where Juan is really at is clearly revealed in Juan's own words above, in which he tries to justify the master LYING to his disciples.

If the master is a LIAR... then he is NO master, NO guru. Period.

And guys like Juan, simply have not come to terms with that yet. Thats why Juan is giving lame excuses and bogus justifications for the gurus LIES.

[Osho Robbins]

People rarely want to hear the truth. They can't accept it. Lies are easier - so they go to some 'master' to lets them continue to believe the crap they believe.

A true master will shatter the concepts you value so highly. They are all nonsense.

Osho used to say "I love to shock people."

Why? because a shock is needed before you can possibly wake up.

Comfort just leads you to go to sleep and remain asleep in the comfortable belief that the master will save me.

The Buddha said "There is no external saviour - not even me"

Who wants to hear that? Certainly not the millions of disciples who follow sant mat.

Their motive in following is to be saved. They are greedy for salvation. And the greedy never get it. Why? because greed is the barrier.

Most of the followers do not even realise they are greedy. They think they have found the 'master' and think they are so lucky.

I used to be there once - thought I was lucky I had found the path whereas the rest of the world was doomed.

Then one day I woke up and realised what a total f**king idiot I was. I was not saved - I was simply deluded. Then began the search for truth - without the comfort. Truth is not comfortable. hence few seek it.

[Juan]

Dear Tao,

I like your comments,

I am not giving any excuses or justification for the lies of gurus, nor I am here to preach for or defend them.

It was just my opinion, there are hundreds of thousands of blind followers in India who consider these RSSB Gurus as God, and have a firm belief that everything that happens good is due to the grace of their guru and anything undesirable is due to their past karmas, and if these followers come to know that their Gurus had been lying, I think it will be a great shock for them.

All these RSSB Gurus have to simply carry on their business, and since the foundation of this business was on stories- miracles fabricated by them and their blind followers, they have to continue the same strategy whether justified or not. Most of these disciples want these lies and are happy with it. For Sure there are NO MASTERS and NO GURUS , administrators YES. Again that is my opinion.

[zenjen]

Osho,

You state:

… “People rarely want to hear the truth”

Don’t you think each person seeks his or her own truth? Which when found will not be able to be ‘proven’ to anyone else.

… “A true master will shatter the concepts you value so highly”

I agree, this is what a true master does. Masters offer clarity of a different kind.

… “The Buddha said "There is no external saviour - not even me" … “Who wants to hear that? Certainly not the millions of disciples who follow sant mat”.

I love what Buddha said and I am a follower of Sant Mat. We all have to do our own work; there is no free ride. This is a message I often hear from Baba Ji.

… “Their motive in following is to be saved. They are greedy for salvation. And the greedy never get it. Why? because greed is the barrier”

Does it really matter what other people are doing?

Don’t know why I am on this website, I must be bored. I think it has helped me though because now I see the two extremes at work.

My only gripe about Sant Mat was the religiosity of the organisation. I am becoming more comfortable now with the way others behave, perhaps more patient, after all they are just doing their best. When we criticize we give away so much of our own inner power.

And then … if we don’t find the master within, that’s okay, its quite peaceful being in the void.

[tAo]

Juan,

OK fair enough. I did not mean to personally get on your case so much. Perhaps it was just the way you worded your previous comments that elicted my sharp response.

What I was really trying to point out, is sort of like this:

You said: "there are hundreds of thousands of blind followers in India who consider these RSSB Gurus as God, and have a firm belief that everything that happens good is due to the grace of their guru and anything undesirable is due to their past karmas, and if these followers come to know that their Gurus had been lying, I think it will be a great shock for them."

-- In case you don't realize it, I was already very well aware of how and what RS satsangis think and believe. So you don't need to explain it all to me. The issue here imo, is that so what if it would be a "great shock" to them. What is more important, their ignorant comfort, or the uncomfortable truth? Osho Robbins expressed this quite well. But somehow, again, you sound as if you still think they are better off remaining in their comfotable ignorance, than they would be being set free by the truth.

Next you said: "All these RSSB Gurus have to simply carry on their business, and since the foundation of this business was on stories- miracles fabricated by them and their blind followers, they have to continue the same strategy whether justified or not."

-- Here's where I disagree again. I do not feel that "they (the RSSB gurus) have to continue" at all. You indicate that it really does not matter if they are "justified or not". But as a matter of fact, they are not bound to adhere to any such "strategy". They are always free to make their own choices. If they choose to carry on a charade, a lie, then that is their choice in every moment. No one is holding them hostage.

Next you said: "Most of these disciples want these lies and are happy with it."

-- They may be think that they are happy, but that is because they do not know any better.

So here's the thing Juan... You are trying to justify the motives of the gurus only so that the proverbial applecart is not overturned. But that is a lame rationale. People deserve the truth. The truth is what will set them free, not comfortable lies and pseudo-salvation fantasies.

So I have to say that I agree with and stand with Osho Robbins on this matter.

[Reality]

More like a real fucking Retard.

[Upsetter]

The inherent paradox of the question "god-man or a$$hole" is this: A real god-man usually is not recognized as such. And the ones who are, usually are a$$holes with no a$$hole.

The whole god-concept was properly denied by european philosophers already some centuries ago. But in India, it seem as if they still deal in such concepts as if nothing ever happend. They, the indian "guru's", still claim as being saintly what Europe would call a narcissistic personality disorder. That being said about being some sort of a god-man.

But who am I to complain about it anyway? India came up with some very valuable concepts regarding the basic questions of LIFE as such and I don't complain about it. I highly benefitted from the indian way of thinking. Like Arthur Schopenhauer did in the 19. century.

Where there is much wisdom, there seem to be also much delusion. And the same goes for the West. And still...I value the indian culture as what it is: Colourfull and profound. Without indian thought and wisdom, I would still run around some oak-tree, singing war-songs, not knowing that there is no Death.

Devotion and domination...making the two into ONE, THAT would be great fun. I'm just saying.

[TheTruth]

A total Asshole for Not giving me a wife and family which he gave to Millions of others, Go figure.