Sant Mat, version 2.0

I’m wondering if there’s been a new release of Sant Mat, a north Indian spiritual philosophy centered around the need to follow a God-realized guru. It certainly seems that way from the remarks of several Church of the Churchless commenters.

Maybe version 2.0 has superceded the original Sant Mat that I was initiated into thirty-five years ago, and which I’ve written about in two books distributed or published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB).

Though now I’ve been called “Beas’ most articulate critic” (and not only by myself), I still have a genuine fondness for Sant Mat, a.k.a. Radha Soami teachings, and I want to be sure that I’m keeping up with the latest theological developments.

So if you’re a member of RSSB, help me out here. Am I wrong in assuming that the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, has updated the Sant Mat philosophy? Since Gurinder Singh doesn’t write anything for publication, nor allow his talks to be recorded, nor permit attendees to take notes about what he says, it isn’t easy to make a comparison between the original Sant Mat teachings and the new guru’s version.

But here’s the impression that I get from hearing Gurinder Singh speak four times, spending two weeks at the Dera in India eight years ago, and reports I’ve gotten via this weblog and other sources about what he’s said more recently.

Sant Mat v. 1.0
--The guru is God in human form
--The guru is perfect, possessing God’s divine qualities
--God has chosen certain souls to return to Him
--God delegates the guru to initiate these “marked souls”
--Without initiation by a perfect guru, God-realization is impossible

Sant Mat v. 2.0
--The guru is a human who is seeking God, just like us
--The guru is imperfect, just like us
--Whether we want to pursue God-realization is up to us
--The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior
--There are many paths to God, not just Sant Mat

This is just an off-the-top-of-my-head summary of several seeming differences between the old and new Sant Mat (or more accurately, RSSB) philosophies. However, if I’m even halfway right about v. 2.0, then kudos to Gurinder Singh. For this is a considerably improved Sant Mat, being closer to a science and further from a religion.

However, I’m a bit skeptical that either the RSSB organization or formal teachings really have changed to this extent. My take is that Gurinder Singh’s breath of fresh spiritual air is being diluted by those RSSB’ers who are either unwilling or unable to understand that this 2006 version isn’t your grandfather’s Sant Mat.

For example, a friend told me that when he went to India he’d hear Gurinder Singh say “We are all gods” when asked if the guru indeed was God. After the meeting ended my friend would ask other attendees what they thought of that rather heretical utterance. Most of them didn’t know what he was talking about. They only had heard what fit with their v. 1.0 conception of Sant Mat.

The winds of change may be blowing, but not in the mind of the typical RSSB initiate. Which isn’t surprising, given that Gurinder Singh has been so reticent to write or speak on the record. The current guru likes to say that he has nothing to add to the historical Sant Mat teachings, so the old books, tape recordings, and videos still serve as the official RSSB party line.

I could be wrong (naturally), but in my more optimistic moments I sense an increased openness in RSSB. This supposedly mystical organization has been heading down the road of becoming a hidebound religion, but maybe Sant Mat v. 2.0 will fix the dogmatic, fundamentalist glitches that are keeping this mystic philosophy from being a true spiritual science.

We can only hope.

Comments

[ET]

Yes I completely concur with you Brian, there is a refreshing wind coming from the Dera these days. During one evening Q & A session, at the Dera in 2001, I heard a lady tell Master Gurinder Singh that she found it difficult to believe he was God. His reply, in essence, was that she was the only sane person in the room.

[Joe]

[Joe sent me this “comment” as an email message. I’ve edited it for clarity and posted it under his name, but without his email address]

Hello again Brian,

I do not know if our correspondence will improve my spirituality, but it should definitely improve my English writing skills. (I am sorry for the additional work I give you. I am a French person living in California for 21 years). You may publish the corrected version of this email. Thank you.

I do not know anything about the version 2.0 of Sant Mat, as I must be honest. I do not feel any connection with the present Master and therefore I totally discarded the new politics and rules he set up. (Particularly the new rigidity of the organization that many satsangis did not need.) I believe that many satsangis initiated by Master Charan Singh could not stand the impersonal Satsang messages of the present Master and his representatives.

As we are living in a New Age where mankind has more ability and means to open our eyes on other cultures, and has been formed to “think” thanks to our higher education, the version 1.0 of Sant Mat was falling short of explanations when read with a mindset of following the “letter of the law.” Apparently the version 2.0 of Sant Mat brings more the “spirit of the law” and triggers my following thought.

Are all satsangis practicing the teaching the same way? Maybe not. The mindset makes the difference. Again, we can follow the letter of the law or the spirit of the law and we are the ones who choose and reap the consequences. A basic understanding of energy fields is necessary to grasp the consequences of the two different approaches.

Following the letter of the law will lead us to energize (or try to follow) the Master and at the end we will feel depleted of physical, mental and spiritual energy. Simply said, we surrender too much of our limited energy. This leads to bitterness, exhaustion and sometimes diseases without mentioning the inability to cope with other human beings who do not share “our devotion.” Ever wonder why some satsangis are so harsh?

On the other hand, following the spirit of the law is much more rewarding. We are meditating to receive or be in the “divine energy.” The one that energizes us and gives us a better harmony with other human beings, animals, plants and ourselves. As we become “charged” our life will start changing. The outside world will not look so gloomy and the world within will be closer at hand. This is our own energy field propelling the soul that will make us merge with the Master at any point of time. The Master does not collect the fragment of our being. He collects us when we are all that we can be. This is “to Be or not to Be.”

Brian, if the version 2.0 of Sant Mat is what you briefly described, this should definitely be a liberation for many “locked” souls and a new beginning for the life of many satsangis.

Kind regards, Joe

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Brian, me thinks it more like Sant Mat 1.2. By the way, blow it out your ass motorcycle man!(Whatever that means)

[Stephen]

I have 1st hand second knowledge that Gurinder Singh said: please pardon my slight paraphaseing cause i can't remember exactly.

" i'm with the wild horses, I don't pull the rope tight because it would just break, so I run w/ them, and I pull on them to the to change their direction"

[tao]

Adult humans aren't horses, they don't need "ropes" put on them, they don't need to be controlled, and they don't need any "Gurinder" so-and-so to "pull on them" or to "change their direction". Furthermore, he is certainly not "with" the "wild horses". If he was, he would not be playing his cult-guru-power game... He would simply be free, and set all his followers free as well. He is obviously a hypocrite and a fraud, in my opinion. He is using spiritual seekers and followers to perpetuate his position and facade. I have no respect for him and his cult whatsoever, and not much more for those who continue to foolishly follow him.

I sure this will offend some readers, but I consider G. Singh to be extremely offensive to the the truth and to the sacred circle of human spirituality.

[just a pligrim]

There's a lot of lessons to be learned from nature.

I was watching some really colorful, beautiful humming birds hovering at the feeder, then, a big brown, plain looking, unatractive and aggressive one flewn in and chased all the others away. They never came back.

It's the same on message boards, any message board. There's always one or two posters who live on the message board, it's like they have no other life. Anytime you may stop by, their posts are always there. They're usally about the only posts. Always the same 0ne or two. Pontificating, showing how superior they thing they are, narrow minded, biggoted, etc.

All the colorful ones have long left.

[ET]

Ha! Yes Pilgrim your metaphor is very cute. I like it, but it does not apply here because we other birds are not going anywhere soon.

However, your story did remind me of a story I heard about 25 years ago. It seems that G. I. Gurdjieff was conducting one of his famous schools in Russia and one of his students, who was lot like Tao, up and left the group because most of the other students were like you and did not wanting him to hang around. He disturbed their harmony. However, Gurdjieff stopped everything and followed this student all the way to Moscow and talked him into returning to the group. When asked why he did this Gurdjieff said that the student was an irritant and a most important part of the learning process for everyone.

[Steve]

A very interesting concept that perhaps RSSB is changing, but still the publications -- RS Greetings - really have not changed at all in 20 years. Maybe the reason they don't list authors is that the articles are just being recycled now. I am not sure.

I do feel a sense of peace when attending Satsang. It's extremely rare in our society for a group of people to sit quietly in a room together -- even if our minds are wandering a bit. There is some interesting power in sitting around together contemplating the relative importance of our lives in the grand scheme of things. If nothing else, perhaps it's a brief time to reflect on this, which is different somehow than sitting in a room alone and meditating.

Although I have been an initiate for many years now, I've avoided talking with most satsangis as I have found a large percentage of them to be (a) extremely negative (b) worship the guru in ways I consider unnatural -- frankly I think our relationship is directly with the creator. And...if the guru facilitates this connection in some magical or mysical way, that's cool, but it doesn't seem to serve much purpose to "worship". It seems kind of creepy actually. I feel the same way about worshipping the bible or any other book that is a collection of stories. Not that they aren't awesome works of mankind, but any historian can explain their human origins.

For the first time in my life I am starting to feel like I'm emerging from something - from some mind control over me and I'm listening to that still clear voice within that has always been there, that is my direct connection to the great link.

Thanks for giving me lots of things to think about.

[Steven M.]

Brian, I do not believe that I have ever encountered a typical initiate. However if there is such a thing as a typical initiate, I suppose that one might reasonably assume this typical initiate would be Asian and living in India, and that much that is discussed here would be of little concern or value to him or her at best. The Asian culture/context the RS faith is planted in richly supports 1.0. The newer 2.0 may more be a version created to mollify Western agitators than a breath of fresh air.

Regards, Steven

[Nemesis]

Ten Challenges to Tao

1. YOU ARE FULL OF METAPHYSICS

Stating stuff like ‘WHAT IS’ as being no metaphysical belief is utter claptrap. It is pure and utter metaphysics by any rigorous academic and consensus understanding. Your failure to identify it as such is testimony to your junior high level of philosophical understanding. Lucky you that you alone have no metaphysics and theology, unlike every other seeker on the entire planet. The minute you make a statement such as, ‘Spirit is all’ or ‘the Self is all’ or simply ‘What is’ you have implicitly made metaphysical postulates. The negative of these, such as ‘there is no spirit’ are likewise metaphysical postulates. The sort of faith I am implying is the faith of MYSTERY and not that of any presumed knowledge and understanding. This is more the way that Meister Eckhart and Nicolas of Cusa approached faith; as an utter mystery or the finger pointing at the moon. You clearly have a set of metaphysical assumptions and a theology just like every one else. Please do not deny this any longer.

2. YOU ARE THE HIGH PRIEST OF BULLSHITTING

You are high priest and pope of your own sant mat bashing theology. You constantly accuse others of being BLIND, BASELESS AND FULL OF COW DUNG. Yet you can only do this because you are the supreme arch BULL-SHITTER. You are a wannabe guru of the most dangerous type; i.e. someone who actually thinks they know something about anything, whereas the truth is that you know nothing about nothing regarding things absolute. Just like the rest of us. Things absolute are an inscrutable mystery and may not be penetrated by weblog pseudo guru’s and pretenders such as yourself.

3. YOUR VIEWS ARE BIGOTED

You have consistently been shown to be prejudiced in regard to sant mat in particular. You have time and again been challenged to say something positive about this tradition and have every time declined. You are therefore fundamentalist and bigoted if you cannot and/or will not find anything positive to say (and sincerely mean it!) about one other whole spiritual tradition. I can do it! Here goes. Islam has a strong moral dimension and discipline, which stems from its hardy desert going Arabic roots. Christianity has a broad church, from the literalist beliefs in Jesus Christ as personal saviour to the sublime theology of Dionysius. Judaism has a relationship with the divine that spans from the personal god of the patriarchs all the way to the ultra mystery of the Kabala. There you go! Easy when you know how! Now lets try the Tao method on all the previous. They are all dumb, blind, baseless dupes full of cow dung and following outdated timeworn dogmas that are enslaving one and all BLAH BLAH BLAH! All excepting his Tao-ship of course who can see through all of that! Yeah right!
My challenge is for you to say something positive and affirming about sant mat and your involvement with it. If you cannot or will not then your views will continue to be branded as bigoted. The word for people who come out with all your type of nasty spew about Jewish culture and beliefs is anti Semitic. Someone needs to invent a similar term for those with an unbalanced and psychotic loathing of sant mat. Perhaps anti sant-matic will have to do for now!

4. THE PROBLEM IS YOU NOT THE PATH

Everything you have ever said about sant mat or RSSB can be read as metaphors of your own psychological state. You have simply projected all your loathing of religious authority , and your failure to realise anything about the path onto the path itself. This is understandable in today’s 24/7 want it all now culture, whereby if something is promised and not realised then the existentially disillusioned punter wants payback. This is getting more to the heart of why people like you leave sant mat and then endlessly rant on about it.

5. YOU CLAIM TO BE A RENUNCIATE. SO BEHAVE LIKE ONE!

In previous postings you have revealed yourself as the swami Jnaneshvarananda. If you truly are a renunciate then what the hell are you doing spreading such hate and loathing about other religious and spiritual paths on the net! In the Indian tradition Swami’s are expected to live up to some high level ideals, which I would suggest fit some of the following. Swami’s should represent the ideal of detachment from all dogmas and beliefs and that includes their own. They should certainly not claim not to have metaphysical beliefs and theology. They should also confess their ignorance in regard to things absolute and not pretend to have knowledge of ‘What is’. Swami’s should represent the ideal of inter faith dialogue and religious tolerance in a pluralistic society. Good examples of such characters are Yogananda, the Dalai Lama and the Shankaracharya. You on the other hand are an arrogant bull-shitter and pseudo guru who wants to round up all the lost RSSB sheep and bring them over to his fold. You are a barmy swami and a disgrace to the very ideals enshrined is such vows. The wonder is that you do not have a superior to bring you to task and tell you to shine the light of criticism on yourself first rather than on others!

6. YOU CONSTANTLY TAKE THE BAIT AND SO REVEAL YOURSELF AS ONE OF US!

Despite claiming not to, you obviously get rattled at the rantings of your Nemesis. This proves that you are on a level with the rest of us. Adapting to and transfiguring the ego are lifetime goals and not the work of a day. You are an opinionated, prejudiced and bigoted bumbling, blind buffoon (as am I) making pure conjectures into knowledge and trumping beliefs up into the way things are! (As I do!) Come on! We all do this! Just admit to it. We are all bull-shitters in this arena of spiritual mystery! Just try coming down off your throne of knowledge and join the rest of us!

7. YOU MISTAKE THE NATURE OF YOUR CRITICS

Can you not see why people adopt positions such as your Nemesis. It is not because they are sant mat faithful, or RSSB dogmatics. There are many within the fold of RSSB who have always had a more agnostic tone to their path and some who have left the dogma behind but retained some affection for the path (Brian Hines for instance). Only such people are truly balanced critics of the path as they can moderate a critique within a culture of inter faith dialogue and understanding. You are a baby with the bathwater person and so have Jack S---T to contribute to any meaningful discussion on sant mat. All you do is stand foaming at the mouth at the touchlines, ranting on and on and telling everyone else under the sun how WRONG they are.

Some who have an involvement with sant mat and RSSB do so from an eclectic and ecumenical approach and have equal involvement with other teachings and practices, from Zen to Advaita. This fits the profile of this writer, and is so far from your pathetic attempt at branding and labelling and pigeon holing that it is truly sad! The reason such forays are made on you positions is for all the reasons highlighted in these ten points and not to defend the one and only true path!

8. TRY USING KINDER LANGUAGE

Admittedly my comments have not much kindness in them, but as your Nemesis you simply get reflected back what you dish out. Why not frame your critiques within some considered language rather than in the slang of dismissive ness. Why not suggest that you find some views ‘problematic’ or ‘difficult’, and ‘unsustainable’. This is more in the spirit of proper debate as opposed to ‘blind, senseless, dumb, ignorant’ and such stuff that tends to imply that you are not any of these whereas others are! If you cannot do this then your critique smacks more of unresolved psychological issues and agendas.

9. TAKE A LONG LOOK AT YOURSELF BEFORE OTHERS AND TAKE SOME COUNSELLING

You could probably do with some counselling (I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT!) to adequately process all the issues of anger, resentment, hostility, and blame that you project on to the path of sant mat and RSSB. Try taking some responsibility! It is your desire and beliefs and your expectations about sant mat that got you disillusioned. Your own personally projected take that got disappointed and not anything inherent in these teachings themselves. Westerners tend to have a 24/7 ‘I want it all and I want it now’ approach to sant mat that totally doesn’t fit the bill. Sant mat flags up stages of inner experience as guidelines on the way to the absolute and unqualified MYSTERY. Us greedy, grasping westerners interpret these as things that have to be achieved and attained. And before we know it we have turned this path into yet more self seeking and goal getting.

10. YOU ARE A CULT OF ONE

You clearly have more of an interest in mashing down other people’s views in cyber space than in actually writing and saying anything to uplift and ennoble the human race. Why are your views or spiritual experience always couched in terms of being anti sant mat. Why is your spirituality defined by a stance of hostility and reactionary debunking? My job as Nemesis is to demolish this position and to debunk the debunkers. I do not need to engage on a point by point nit picking duelling approach that you seem to delight in, but respond to the overall tone and pitch of your position.

I repeat my challenge that you are now pope and high priest of your own church of one member, and that is your own big fat self. You are just as dogma driven (all references to ‘What is’ as being the way things are) and theologically bound (all opinionated criticisms of sant mat) as any true believer of sant mat or Christianity. You are a cult of one member and that is you! Unless you have some poor unfortunate Tao-ites hanging on your every word like it might actually mean something!

Instead of spending unending hours ripping apart another teaching and path to your own egotistical satisfaction, why not spend that time in seva by helping those in need rather than going around shouting, ‘WRONG, BLIND, BASELESS, MINDLESS and so on ad nauseam to all and sundry who don’t agree with you. I am sure we would all be advised to tend to this side of spiritual life a bit more rather than indulging our crappy ego’s in endless and truly mindless debates about ‘What is’.

I for one am going to take my own advice and disappear off this weblog, whereas you no doubt in your self righteous way will carry on pontificating, correcting and bull-shitting to your hearts content, ever willing to correct the BLIND, BASELESS AND MINDLESS followers of other teachings, when you yourself are the archetype and embodiment of all these qualities.

[Iona]

Brian,

What an interesting thread your journey makes here. I, too, have always been a bit of an RS heretic in that I embrace what is functionally useful for me. I don't necessarily believe in 'pie in the sky' and couldn't be less concerned over reincarnation, as we are the sum of our parts. I think in RS you can participate in as little or much CULT behavior as you want. I've seen the Master, but never slavishly chased him, nor spent my life savings on Dera trips. I continue my interests in other perhaps anti-RS areas, including psychedelic culture, though I don't take nor advocate drugs. I'm interested in people and paths - perhaps more of a humanist, than theist or polytheist. When I joined Sant Mat, I was an entrenched Hermetic Qabalist who could find no decent teachers available in the so-called Western tradition. HOWEVER, let it be known the RS and Qab/Kabbalist descriptions of inner planes are IDENTICAL including the spiritual idland in the Abyss. Therefore, for me they mark the milestones of inner experience, without distinctions of East and West.

I don't let the cogo-logo disconnects bother me; I simply draw what works for me and nourishes me spiritually from any system. If we can't "leave" Sant Mat, I may be in for some kind of surprise at death, haha. If not, I don't disparage any energy spent there.

Like yourself, I've spent lots of time on the nature of Reality in physics, and we are pretty ephemeral...truly Light and Sound as my Quantum Bioholography work shows. see emergentmind.org

If there is any modern message to be learned from religions, it is undermined by wars in their name that are politically-based.

Functionally, therfore, I stick pretty close to the Jungian notion of individuation and that we all find our own resonance where and when we can.

I made up a spoof Qabalah - a rejoinder to No Wave music, which reacted to New Wave. The tenets of No Way Qabalah are "There is nowhere to go and we're all going to get there." and the mantra is "No Way, no way, no way.

In any regard I've always felt we should "clean up our own backyards" and that psych 101 goes a long way toward that.

Peace In,
Iona
http://ionatopia.50megs.com

[elizabeth wagner]

As a long time atheist/disbeliever/existentialist/initiate of Sant Mat - after reading all this "stuff" and coming to the end of it, it feels one has emerged from a minefield or labyrinth : all I can do is breathe fresh air, listen to the Sound and obliterate all else.

[ROBBY]

I think the problem here is not the Baba Gurjinder Singh ji is changing anything in Sant Mat. The problem is we expect too much . We are the souls in bondage and we are the one's that have doubts then we complain about the master instead. The master can just tell us what to do but we must do our meditation to clear doubts and obsticles . We desire quick progress but like all path's we have to have patience .

We expect Baba ji to write new books but have we ever stopped and thought why should he write new books that just re tells us the same information from previous Maters books ?

[tao]

To ROBBY:

You wrote: "I think the problem here is not the Baba Gurjinder Singh ji....The problem is we expect too much."

Is expecting the guru to be a wise and compassionate sage, expecting too much? Is expecting him to be genuine and not a fraud, expecting too much? The guru is the one who must live up to the highest spiritul standard. This pathetic joke of a fraud named Baba Gurjinder Singh isn't anywhere even close.

You wrote: "We are the souls in bondage and we are the one's that have doubts"

You only speak for yourself. It is you who are the "soul in bondage". You obviously don't have a clue as to what's up. You don't squat about where others are at spiritually.

You wrote: "The master can just tell us what to do but we must do our meditation"

The so-called "master" (ie: YOUR master) can just take his "telling" and stick it you know where. Same goes with YOUR (not "our") "meditation".

You wrote: "like all path's we have to have patience."

Again, there is no "we". Speak only for yourself. It is only your idea of a "path" that you are babbling about.

You wrote: "We expect Baba ji to write new books but have we ever stopped and thought why should he write new books...?"

I don't "expect" him to write any books, and I don't suspect that Brian does either. I would not read his books anyway, even if he did write some. But the real reason that he doesn't write books, is that he really has nothing in himself of any spiritual value or significance to express. He is merely a parrot and a facade pretending to be a guru, he is far far away from being a genuine sage.

[Rachna]

Dear Babaji,

Jese suraj ki garmi sey jaltey hua tan ko mil jaye sarver ki chhaya asa hi sukh mere dil ko mila hai mey jab sey sharan teri aaya mere ram.

Rachna

[rachna]

Dear Babaji,

Aap aaj mere sapne mey aana. darshan dena.

jis rah ki manzil pey tera milan ho usi par kadam mey barau, pholo mey taro mey patjhar baharo mey mein na kabhi dagmagau

Rachna

[Michael Fairley]

I'm initiated into Sant Mat by Gurinder Singh. I'm a young man that stumbled across this site by accident. I wasn't going to bother writing anything here but decided to anyway. Why is everyone on this site so interested in being right? You seem to all be very angry.Anger isn't so good for your organs. If you could see what anger does to your insides you would probably never be angry again. I've had an interview with Gurinder and I felt a lot of love from him. More than I have felt from any other person. Anyway I hope you all work things out. Beas is beautiful and the people there all seem very happy. I've been twice but I don't feel the need to go again any time soon. The treasure is inside.

[Roger]

What does Ones insides look like after a period of anger? Could you take a particular organ and describe the visual differences? This sounds like an amazing read. My concerns, are that One's organs can receive damage from happiness events. Such as eating and drinking fun and happy generating things.

[tucson]

Michael Fairley said: "I've had an interview with Gurinder and I felt a lot of love from him. More than I have felt from any other person."

--When we idealize a person the love we feel for them is reflected back to us. Consider that the love you attribute to Gurinder is your love, love that is already within you.

Say a person loves a certain Les Paul guitar model. Whenever he sees that guitar it stands out to him in all its splendor because he loves that guitar. Others pass by the same guitar in the store and hardly notice it.

[Roger]

Tucson,

Good point made. This need to feel love is probably one root cause for someone's need to join a spritual group and follow the particular spiritual leader. Micheal's statements open up insights into this interesting topic.

With that said, nothing wrong with a need to feel love.

[tAo]

"Why is everyone on this site so interested in being right?"

-- because its a hell of a lot better than being wrong.

"You seem to all be very angry."

-- its much better than being stupid. and you seem to be rather naive.

"Anger isn't so good for your organs."

-- oh yes it is, it makes em strong and tough, not timid and feeble. and did you know that stupidity is not good for your brain? it turns your brain into crap.

"If you could see what anger does to your insides you would probably never be angry again."

-- if you could see what stupidity does to your brain, you would probably never follow any master again.

"I've had an interview with Gurinder and I felt a lot of love from him."

-- oh how cute. but did you wash yourself off afterwards? these gurus have diseases you know.

"More than I have felt from any other person."

-- well then you must have had a pretty empty life before that.

"Beas is beautiful and the people there all seem very happy."

-- oh sure... some people really like living as slaves and peons in a feudal system. it makes them feel like the belong.

"I've been twice but I don't feel the need to go again any time soon."

-- are you sure about that? most prisoners and slaves have an unconcious urge to return back to their prison or master.

"The treasure is inside."

-- nope, your'e quite wrong about that. there is nothing "inside". the Treasure is in the Sierra Madre. there is no doubt about that.

[Catherine]

Last four comments- absolutely hilarious! The men resident at the Dera have primarily large stomachs. I am wondering if the treasure could be there but then maybe the Sierra Madre...

[Account Deleted]

Well its a strange feeling...that brain being so experienced still unable to understand the logical and practical side of life.

Santmat versions have changed from the day of its existence and will be keep on changing...

Its because..its not that santmat is changing..its we who are changing...the whole existence is changing..

we always look for better change..
because we are applying and using our mind,which can be used for positive and negative side..

why the present master has changed the rules..
very simple because the followers are changed..
and theres been no much improvement from the previous followers as well..

and the reason is...complicated..
why complicated...?because no one is ready to listen any other person..if at all they do? they do according to their choice.

Santmat can only followed by
complete surrenderness..
complete faith and trust..
and complete love...

if not it can never be followed..and thus results is ...these like blogs come into existence..

when baba jaimal singh was there the teachings were different..
when baba sawan singh ji was the teachings were different..
when baba jagat singh ji was there the teachings were different
when maharaj charan singh ji was there the teaching was different..
and its natural when today master baba gurinder singh ji is there the teachings have to be different..

because time is changing...
and all need more ideas and point of views..

what masters says in a different manner
but the purpose is same and one..
its different we all understand it with our own level of consciousness..

we all know the example..
when some one see a half filled glass of water
one say the glass is half filled
one say the glass is half empty..
now more changes...
some said the glass is good( he is not paying attention on water,as glass was his choice)
some said the water is there..(his choice was not glass but water)
one came and said wow the table in good (on which the glass was there,his interest was neither in glass or water,his choice of interest was in table)

so these same point of views get created from us regarding santmat,

in the above mentioned glass and water theory,
the situation was same,but there were many point of views ...

its natural and it happens..

now to the verson 2 santmat(according to you)

""The guru is a human who is seeking God, just like us""
This is just to encourage us..that we are not much different from guru,infact we are one like guru and can seek god.

""The guru is imperfect, just like us""
same another form of encouragement,so that no one feel low,or not worth..everyone is imperfect so as the guru,in this sayings guru is getting more personal with everyone,and showing us that we all are one..he is trying to pull of the burden that we are all carrying loads of karmas and guru is free from them,he is making us feel lighter towards this thought so that we can concentrate much of spiritual journey.

""Whether we want to pursue God-realization is up to us""

exactly true..

this is because the real santmat is not being understood by many and many are getting confused..
so now they says its our choice...
again they are trying to bring out us from the force element from the pressure that we have to follow it any how..
infact now they are making us believe that its a matter of choice..and when mind is free to make choice..then its become easy to make decisions..

When some one has a problem and gos to doctor,
doctor can daigonise the problem and give the prescribed medicines,
now to trust doctor and take that the pills as per prescription is upto us..

""The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior""

this is something very true and required at this age..of technology
why because we all after getting into this path and getting initiated become carefree..why ? because
our master will come at the time of death and save us vice a verse...

so to make people alert more alert and active,they started to tell that guru is spiritual guide and not saviour,
because its simple..we have to save ourself..
by choosing the path,believing the path and following the path..
if all these done..we are automatically saved..
if guru would have saved instantly then no one would have required to give 2.5 hours of time to meditation,
he would have directly taken us to sachkhand(which many people believe it doesnt exist)

we all have certain limitations...
so naturally guru has to be in certain limitations to patch with us..

if not we will never be able to understand santmat at all.

""There are many paths to God, not just
Sant Mat""

true again..there are many paths to god,
but its our choice and destiny which brings us to the required path..

this is said because people have mistook rssb,people thought that rssb think its only the path on earth towards salvation and spiritual journey,

well it is one among,but i do not know about any other..
because..i do not want..
im happy,completely happy with rssb...

when i started to use computers i started with P1 then came p2 and then p3,now core 2 duo and it will go on..

versions will keep changing...and versions change for more better reasons..

but still its all upto us what we think how we think..

i want to share a small example.
here it is

A teacher once replied to his disciple about life with following illustration,A terrible fight is going on inside me,it is a struggle between 2 wolves,
one wolf is evil,its full of anger,jealously,sorrow,regret,greed,arrogance,self pity,guilt,resentment,inferiority,superiority and ego.

The other is good,its joy,peace,love,hope,contentment,humility,kindness,benevolence,empathy,generosity,truth,compassion and faith.

The same battle is going on with in you too and with everyone...

The disciple thought for a while and then asked his teacher,"who eventually win his battle?"

The teacher simply replied," THE ONE WE FEED".

[jain]

hey Brian, Manish calls you "brain".

are you a brain??

or is Manish just insane?
or a drain?
or a pain?
or a strain?
or a bane?

well i gotta catch a train after the rain begins to wane.

[Account Deleted]

jain..you causing urself a pain...

please take care of yourself
jain with pain and insane and straon and drain and bane and again jain

wow wow wow

[sapient]

Thats your understanding Manish (mla). Thats why you belong to version 1.0. Even if all the books are rewritten in v2.0 you will still not upgrade. Santmat doesn't have any viral threat from people like you cause your mind, conscious and everything is already shut. (the so called satsangi surrender).

V2.0 is mostly required for west, cause:
a) The big money is usually in West
b) and a foreign (especially white) audience is required to collect more herd at dera. you know the usual craze about 'phoren' and 'phoreneres'.
3) And also Santmat doesn't want them to be declared as Cult. If they keep on telling v1.0, they can very soon be declared as a cult by so many countries in west.

[sapient]

and so that you understand what exactly is cult, read this para from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

"Studies of the psychological aspects of cults focus on the individual person, and factors relating to the choice to become involved as well as the subsequent effects on individuals. Under one view, an important factor is coercive persuasion which suppresses the ability of people to reason, think critically, and make choices in their own best interest.

Studies of religious, political, and other cults have identified a number of key steps in this type of coercive persuasion:

1. People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
= If you are initiated and won't do meditation for two and half hour, you will be dragged by bulldozer.

2. Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
= Babaji, I am having an anxiety attack -surrender and meditate
= Babji, I am getting maniac- surrender and meditate
= Babaji, my kid committed suicide cause she was distressed and I was busy doing sewa - surrender and meditate
= Babaji, I have lost all connection with non satsangi society including my own parents - surrender and meditate
= Babaji, I can't sleep, have lost my job - surrender and meditate (oh by the way, since you have no job, you can work for the entire weekend and few weekdays at sewa centers, you will be super-core sewadar)

3. They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader;
= Usually through their delusions as they are in desperate need of somebody who can be loved.

4. They get a new identity based on the group;
= They are 'the chosen ones' or initiates or satsangis

5. They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.
= This will make them gurumukh and will help in reduce karmas.

[Juan]

A teacher once replied to his disciple about life with following illustration,A terrible fight is going on inside me,it is a struggle between 2 wolves,
one wolf is evil,its full of anger,jealously,sorrow,regret,greed,arrogance,self pity,guilt,resentment,inferiority,superiority and ego.

The other is good,its joy,peace,love,hope,contentment,humility,kindness,benevolence,empathy,generosity,truth,compassion and faith.

The same battle is going on with in you too and with everyone...

The disciple thought for a while and then asked his teacher,"who eventually win his battle?"

The teacher simply replied," THE ONE WE FEED".

Sant Mat saints(gurus)are so kind hearted that they are going to feed both.

[ozone]

that is a delusion within an illusion.

there is no struggle. there is no fight. there is no battle. there is no ego. there are no wolves. there is no teacher. there are no disciples. there are no gurus. there are no saints. there are no sinners.

and none of those exist in the kind hearted.

[Jen]

An enjoyable thread… I love these people, especially the nutty ones, they give me a smile and a chuckle…

[tucson]

The wolf howls at the stars on a moonless night not knowing it is the moon.

[Account Deleted]

[Deleted because of personal attacks, as was mia/Manish's previous comment. Please read this blog's comment policies and refrain from personal insults.]

[malkeet]

its better to follow with full truth..if u hav startd to find mistakes u cant proceed..keep trust and move on... and the version 2.0 u hav prduced or created by by urself..that fake lie by u..i hav studied everything ..u r a lier..and u have created false story to mis guide peoples..better u do a gud work..and if u cant do good better to sit quite..dont misguide peoples..and the peoples who hav start doubting on my guru..i strongly believe if u cant b of ur guru then u cant b of anyone else...take care everyone..

malkeet

[unfathomed_depth]

To me it seems like the present santmat suffers from the same problem of santmat with previous gurus, which is that while the central purpose of the guru is to aide seekers in pursuing their own path toward God-realization, the seekers (including 'initiates') use it as an opportunity to worship the guru and otherwise 'follow' him as some kind of worldly sovereign.

On the other hand, though, satsangis (like Christians) also use the doctrine of absolute sovereign authority through inner-revelation to assert their own personal prerogative according to the will of ego instead looking beyond their personal will in search of higher authority (within).

Any santmat guru has the same problem, which is how to deal with people who have not realized that there is inner authority that goes beyond the arbitrary whims of personal prerogatives? Those people have no way of doing anything besides totally submitting to either their own arbitrary whims or the authority of some worshipped master. If they could, don't you think they would figure out for themselves what is good and right instead of looking for someone else to tell them?

These are people who have lost faith in themselves, and thus seek a master, yet they have not (yet) developed enough faith to trust their own inner authority and become their own master.

Ultimately, what does it matter how one version of santmat differs from another? Ultimately the goal is for people to develop their own mental clarity and authority to know for themselves what's right and wrong and how things work.

Now is there a part of this website devoted to discussing actual theological questions or is it just a venue for ranting against specific spiritual disciplines and leaders (and other discussants)?

[Rose]

The best time to speak with any knowledge on this topic is after enlightenment. Then perhaps there will be no need to discuss anything. Before then, while it’s essential that we use discernment in choosing a path or teacher or whatever, it seems we are drawn where we must go. This is obvious when you observe, as I have, a large sangat strongly drawn after their Masters death to very very different gurus or none at all. It’s a mystery to me and an intended one it would appear.

[Lance]

You are a very busy fellow Brian, being able to keep up with so many religions and as they evolve is amazing,
it is very interesting how often leaders of such organizations have additional divine inspirations that would lead to changing their practices,
it reminds me of how Cao Dai has evolved and expanded except for the actual religion, although it encompasses many beliefs including some new age practices it seems to be continually expanding.