Another soul says “RSSB not for me”

It’s always a pleasure to hear from a like-minded soul: someone who approaches spirituality with a scientific bent and isn’t shy about questioning dogmas that don’t seem to make sense.

Yesterday I got an email from Cynthia, who is, like me, an initiate of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB). She shared what brought her to this spiritual path and also what has caused her to draw away from it.

Below is the core of her message, mildly edited for clarity and readability. When Cynthia told me that it was fine to post her words, she asked me to make sure that she didn’t say anything incorrect about RSSB. So I changed her “And why are all the Masters related?” to “And why are so many of the Masters related?”—since not all of the RSSB gurus have been members of the same family.

I resonate with Cynthia. She’s right: RSSB is indeed a religion, though the organization makes claims to being a science. When I read the list of what doesn’t sit well with her, for every item I said to myself “right on, sister.”

She says that now she likes the idea of “not being on a mission to accomplish something during meditation.” That’s a great notion. The incongruence of desiring to attain desirelessness, or willing to give up your will to a higher power, has become more evident to me in my own meditative practice.

Thanks for sharing, Cynthia. Here’s her message:

Looking back, I believe that Sant Mat came along when I was feeling the need to connect with a spiritual path that could offer me “purpose,” structure, and connections with like-minded individuals. I have always been very open-minded and willing to learn from others, and I saw Babaji [Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the present RSSB guru] as another teacher on my spiritual educational path.

I was not sure about the “GIHF” [god in human form] aspect, and chose to view the Master as “especially enlightened.” I liked the fact that we were told that through meditation, we could achieve the same state, although it would most likely take many years. I am a scientist by training, and I liked the scientific aspect of the Path.

I did pretty well for the first few months. Sometimes instead of meditating, I would spend the time reflecting on things in my life and reading the books. I had a few good experiences with meditation, achieved a nice relaxed state, and felt good. I was fine with the [eggless vegetarian] diet this whole time and learned how to love it and live it.

At the end of November I entered my typical year-end reflective period. I had some quiet time to think about my "spiritual work" and what I wanted to commit to for the next year. For whatever reason, I had begun to have a different perspective of Sant Mat: that it was really a religion, even though they say it is not. Here is a list of what is not sitting well.

--RSSB initiates are the “chosen ones” and have been selected to go back to the Lord. What does this mean for the others, like my husband, who are not initiated?

--The Master is GIHF [god in human form]. If we are all drops from the same ocean, why do we need someone outside of ourselves to connect us with what is already supposed to be a part of us? How can one person take on the karma of 3 million people? Why would he have to? How can someone else be responsible for the good things that happen to us? And why are so many of the Masters related? A family business, perhaps? And no female Masters?

--We are all equal “drops” but RSSB discriminates against homosexuals, as evidenced by Charan Singh’s quote [see this Church of the Churchless post].

--The over-the-top obsession with the diet restrictions, so much that it has become a way of life for satsangis [RSSB initiates]; what ever happened to everything in moderation?

--The fact that we are isolated from each other by not being allowed to meditate together or talk about our experiences, which just serves to elevate the Master all the more (I would love to hear his meditation stories).

--We can't interface with God directly.

--The mind is an evil force to be overcome (which discourages questioning about the Path, as you have experienced).

--We need to obey and worship the Master or bad things will happen to us; I feel like I am back in Catholic church again, or back home as a little girl with mom and dad saying that God is putting black marks about me in his "book" when I misbehave. Give me a break.

--Stories like someone secretly feeding an initiate an egg, and causing that person to come back in the reincarnation cycle, or the one about Babaji wanting to dig up all the flowers at Dera [Indian headquarters of RSSB] because their beauty is distracting satsangis from their meditation.

Well, there's the main list. I think that I am finally ready to accept responsibility for my own spiritual growth.

I have read the RSSB sections of your blog and enjoyed every minute of it. I went to the bookstore yesterday and got a copy of Hagen's “Buddhism Plain and Simple,” and finished it this morning.

I like the idea of “no self” and that all of us are interconnected and constantly changing. I know that since I am not freaking out about leaving RSSB that it must be the right decision for me. I have learned a lot about myself from the two years I spent on the Path, and my personal spirituality has accepted some of the RSSB teachings.

I do believe that meditation is a useful process, and I plan to continue doing it. I like the idea of just listening to my breathing and not being on a mission to accomplish something during meditation; I do enough of that in my worldly work. I am not sure what to do about my diet. I will go back to eating eggs, but I am not sure what I will do about the rest. I went out to lunch today, knowing I could eat anything on the menu, and I just couldn't do it.

Well, Brian, thanks for listening.

Best,
Cynthia

Comments

[Navyug Sandhu]

I will like to comment on some aspects of this post,especially the points made by Cynthia
"RSSB initiates are the “chosen ones” and..."
If you examine these references closely, it refers not only to RSSB but all kinds of spiritual paths reffered collectively as 'Sant Mat'.

--"The Master is GIHF [god in human form] If we are all drops from the same ocean.."

A 'lake' of water is a water-body, So is a 'Sea' and the former needs another water-body 'river' to connect with latter. We are a part of the omnipotent energy but we are separated from it by numerous illusionary envelopes, so need a link.

" How can one person take on the karma of 3 million..."
About Karmic theory I am as perplexed as you are, but you seem a little confused over some aspects of the topic. Masters never say that they will bring good to selected people only. Their and God's gameplan is global affecting everyone and I dont know why people become confused.

" And why are so many of the Masters related..."

I also sometimes think on those lines and will like to question this.

" And no female Masters?" We have had some female masters in the past like Mirabai, Sahjobai etc. but ofcourse they are a rarity.

"We are all equal “drops” but RSSB discriminates against homosexuals, as evidenced by Charan Singh’s quote [see this Church of the Churchless post]"

I didn't see anything wrong with the quote.This is a casual social comment. But if you can refer to the vision of Charan Singh(or for that matter, of any enlightened master), the very basic thing is that there is nothing good or bad in the universe. These are arbitrary observations developed by our limited perception.

--"The over-the-top obsession with the diet restrictions..."

But how to implement moderation for multitudes. This is essentially a generalized concept and forced vigourously as we tend to forget moderation too easily. I know of some examples when Master allowed certain disciples to jump restrictions in special circumstances.

--"We can't interface with God directly"

Yes we can. Just need a modem.

--"The mind is an evil force to be overcome..."

Mind is a great tool giving our species an edge. But it has a limit also. That imposed by limit of perception. And unfortunately it can't percieve beyond our space-time. At that level ofcourse it becomes a liability. A simple minded person will never waste time on this game of words we are playing on the net !

--"We need to obey and worship the Master or bad things will happen to us..."

I have never come across such quotes. They (masters)say the best way to serve master is to meditate and lack of it just means we are lagging behind on the path. No other bad things.

" Babaji wanting to dig up all the flowers at Dera.." I am not able to comment as I am not aware of facts.

I have been visiting this site and my observation is that we sometime take casual observations too seriously. I think we should just focus on real essence and give just superficial look to superficial things. I know closely of a path that became slowly stiff and converted into religion (sikhism), but its real essence, preserved in its scriptures, is still --- a spiritual path. Only the people surrounding it seem to overlook that.

[radhasoami]

RSSBor radha soami satsangbeasis no doubt a spiritual organisation, but some bad people just as chhajju ram goyal, president, barnala centre of RSSBare affecting the credibility of thisorganisation. some 18 month ago onepoor lady hadnarratted her tale of a harrowing experienceas tohow she was molestedby chhajju ram goyal of barnala. but RSSB authories instead of taking a action, promoted him, because his brother in law is a DIG in punjab police.

[Stephen7]

I guess I don't have a problem w/ any of those things cynthia listed and if she would listen to the tapes or maybe a little more critical thinking she could get the rational or other facts. However, the Guides do contradict each other. RS does not discriminate againest homosexuals. I've been on this path 14 times longer than that.

The Gurus are tough on the moral line and other vows. but look, they're trying to lead masses of humanity on every level of intellect. Mostly uneducated I would say.

Everything about the meditation makes sense from a rational view point. I study zen, alan watts and luther ackland and it comes down to ones and zeros.

there could have been nothing at all or existence, there is or there isn't. Well as brian like to say , we can't deny "being", it's always everywhere, More logically there should be nothing at all, why is there anything ? It can never be intellectually known. Is meditation real ? does it connect us with the other side of "being". It cannot be known intellectually, Meditation must be done and experienced.

You pick, is it a one or a zero ? then act accordingly but ultimately, standing around staring at the question will never answer it.

What we all need is a miracle. Or - we need to openly discuss our inner experiences.

[trying_to_answer]

I hope Cynthia might have got some answers or atleast some points to think again with Navyug's comments.

Let me first take up the question of female masters. Its agreed among all that most of the females have emotional attachments higher than males and when they get attached to something (a partner, children, anything else), its difficult for them to detach themselves whereas its easier for males. How much easier, I can not say but relatively speaking its easier. And detachment is what we need on the path to spirituality. And this is the reason why we do not have so many female masters. And the fact is, there were as mentioned by Navyug.

The title of the post - Another soul says “RSSB not for me” - somehow fall out of place. If we are speaking about spiritual independence, then let people decide on their own which course is better for them. The title suggests that such number is growing which is not the fact.

And putting forward questions like this which could have been answered by anybody on sant mat, just shows that the mind was never ever prepared to take this path and it was forced. And in no way there is any surity that the mind will like budhism for long.

The only advice to Cynthia is, time invested in the search for a path is not wasted. But the mind if goes on wandering at the end of every year just in the name of "year-end reflective period" will take her no where.

And RSSB never said that its the only path to get salvation. There could be others. And if you are able to find and stick to them, then you will do yourself good. Else there are still people who do not even think about spirituality. They also survive and do good in life.

And for RSSB as a religion, taking this path doesn't force you to change your existing religious practices. I know you can make out the differences when your mind stops wandering.

[Brian]

As a general comment on the comments above, I wish defenders of RSSB would defend the organization straight up and not twist RSSB theology into unfactual knots.

Fact: RSSB books do say that if you disobey or disrespect the guru, bad things will happen to you. Read the quotes in a recent post of mine:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/12/gurus_and_disci.html

Fact: the RSSB books do say that the gurus come to do good only for selected people. These are the "marked souls" who supposedly didn't want to leave the Lord at the time of creation. Everybody else has to wait in line, apparently, until the marked souls are taken care of.

Fact: the RSSB books do say that homosexuality is unnatural, humiliating, and degenerating (see quru's quote in http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/06/in_defense_of_u.html)
How is this not discriminatory, since the guru is clearly making a moral discrimination between gays and straights?

Fact: the RSSB books do say that this is the only path to salvation. This, in fact, is central to the whole RSSB theology. A living guru is considered to be absolutely essential for god-realization. Without initiation by a "perfect master," the teaching is that your own spiritual efforts will be fruitless. "No one goes back to the Father but through me" is a keystone of the RSSB philosophy.

I could go on, continuing to point out more misstatements by commenters to these and other posts. But what I'm getting at is this: if you want to defend some aspect of the RSSB teachings, please do so. I just ask that you defend what is truly taught, not a watered-down version of the teachings.

My hypothesis, which I'm quite sure is true, is that most RSSB initiates actually don't believe the RSSB teachings. Yet for some reason they still feel the need to defend the teachings that they don't believe in.

For example, I often hear it said "the guru never says that this is the only genuine spiritual path." Yet, the RSSB gurus do indeed say this. The books are full of such statements.

So, what gives? I can only assume that the speaker is substituting his or her own view (which in my opinion is more correct than the RSSB party line)for the actual RSSB teaching.

This is good. It supports the point I make over and over here at the Church of the Churchless: that we should think for ourselves and emphasize direct experience rather than belief in dogma.

But it's hard to have a solid discussion when some people aren't willing to admit virutally indisputable facts about the RSSB theology. If you don't agree with the RSSB teachings, then say so. I just request that you not paper over those teachings to make them appear other than they are just so you can maintain a facade of being a "devoted satsangi."

[trying_to_answer]

RSSB does not force you to align yourself to its philosophies. Just because you think in a particular way doesn't make the ideology wrong.

And the concept of good and bad, right and wrong is relative. What is right for you, might be wrong for me and others.

About disobeying and disrespecting the guru, its not just mentioned in RSSB theology, its part of other religions too. The intellect is working more on RSSB or any other new religion, due to the fact that they are well documented and there is access to the masters who are preaching it.

When we call a person "Son of God" or when we believe a person to be "God in human form", then we need to take care that we treat him differently.

If today, somebody says that I am "Son of God", christians will not believe it. Though he could be.

As for your statement about "Selected persons", even in a corporate you don't promote everybody working on the same designation. You look for the deserving candidate and then promote him/her. From your point of view, the person who does not get promoted would for sure say that the selection was not proper. This is the same for spiritualism. If you don't deserve, you will not get.

And for the old religions including christianity, its not documented well enough and the explanations and arguments are based on a perceptions and different lines of thought. Moreover the books were not written during the times when the masters of that theology is alive. After another 200 years, there could be another religion that people of those times would feel it to be more relevant and practical. And they might completely ignore the older ones.

You can find some books on christianity that takes Bible in a different perspective and you will see that it also emphasizes living master concept.

The idea of single path doesn't mean that its taught only by RSSB. Why every religion talks about meditation? Have some thought process on it. Meditation is not just for relaxation, its more than that. For relaxation simple yogic asanas or a kind of music is enough.

[Just do it]

Brian,

What is the point of discussing all this publicly ? If you are a reality seeker ( let us know if you are beginning to have doubts about this as well) then take action. Seeking reality is about taking massive determined action , not discussing issues on a blog. If you are disillusioned with RSSB do something else buddhism or brian hines meditation or whatever but the key is to pursue it with full commitment and if it does not work , try something else. Discussion can help to clarify some feelings but this board is fast degenerating into ego battles over what i believe are trivial issues . (Who cares what facade RSSB followers are trying to put up and what point RSSB non-believers are trying to prove- trying to justify yourself is just feeding the ego). Just try your best to lead a life of virtue , correct your character flaws and follow the spiritual practise of your choice with full commitment.

Have a wonderful day,

[ander]

it seems,
that,
you havent realised the essence of the teachings of all mystics,

Its simple really.

the word is shabd, or logos (that heraclitus speaks of and "noone seems to comprehend")

The shabd is the master, it/she/he/the is/ is the guru of each and every one of us. It is the guru of ur guru, it the stuff god is made of.

The force, is consciouss, consciousness of consciousness,,,,,,,,,,,,"do u believe in god? no , i believe in the sudden eruptions of consiousness, j.l.Godard"

Like the thunderbolts Zeus holds in his hands.

It is the "is" that jesus said you should not turn ur back against, u can say fuck god and fuck the guru and his teachings, but dont, for the sake of your soul, dont turn your back against "it".

if i say he is one, it is not so,
if i say he is two, it is a blasphemy,
it is what it is, says kabir after profound thought.

While at the same time the reed flute of rumi still laments its separetion from its home.

Do we feel that sorrow? Do we want the "is" as much as Rumi did? as much as mirabai? tukaram? Are we ready to become the "is" itself?
Read closely what was intended to be cospicuous,,,"the drop mergess in the ocean the the ocean mergess in the drop"

What a pointless array of words, i just posted. What am i trying to say?

tabriz said it best.
-paraphrazing offcourse

"a sound came to me
not from afar
nor from nearby,
not from the left
nor from the right,
neither from within
nor from without,
U will ask then,
whence does it come from?

It comes from the direction where you seek to go.
it comes from the direction that ripeness comes to to fruits
from the direction that the hand of moses became as bright as the moon
From the direction that rocks turn into diamons.

Be silent and listen to the five sounds that come from heaven."

I have now realised , and thank you brian, that enganging oneself in conversations such as these are meaningless and fruitless. The are examples to be followed and examples to be avoided.

If, u read santmat, and havent realised that the master is the shabd, then what can i say. I am pretty recent in this web ( i feel this is one of the last times i log on actually) and i breezed almost all the posts for months back.
do u know what? No mention of shabd anywhere.

for someone who practises
Surat SHABD yoga.
not mentioning the shabd anywhere seems
weird.

u r the guru, and u r the disciple. all at once. Master/slave. beloved/lover, god/soul. guru/disciple, ocean/drop.

Shabd is the reality ,
all else illusion.

so long,

[voodoo on the doodoo]

To all of you who think that this blog is somehow a forum for you to re-establish Sant Mat and RSSB dogma, and your own tired rhetoric and twisted versions of what the RSSB cult/religion is all about. ---

In defense and support of Brian (who is by the way, the owner, the founder, and the editor of this web-log):

Great post Brian! Nice to see that some more of us like "Cynthia" have awakened, and are willing to start thinking for themselves with clarity, rationality, reason, and common-sense. Brian wrote: "...the point I make over and over here at the Church of the Churchless: that we should think for ourselves and emphasize direct experience rather than belief in dogma." That about says it all, and so all the RSSB freaks might pay some serious attention to that statement. As Brian also pointed out, the FACTS are all there. The facts are all documented in black & white throught RSSB literature and audio recordings. If you Sant Mat satsangis need to continue your denial and adherence to subservience to a "master", then you are completely free to do so...but why don't you just go to some other site where loyal satsangis are all in agreement with you? Why do you insist on badgering Brian with the same tired old dogmatic beliefs? Brian, Cynthia, myself, and others have moved on in our spiritual development, and we simply are not stuck in the Sant Mat/RSSB cult-religion dogma anymore. As it is said: "To Each His Own"....No one is telling you sant-mat loyalists what to do or believe, so why can't you respect others like Brian and Cynthia in the same way? It is this very thing which turns so many people off to spiritual groups and paths like Sant Mat.(Also, according to Shiv Dayal Singh (by his own assertion and bias as espoused in Sar Bachan), the Sant Mat & RSSB path definitely considers itself to be The ONE and ONLY True Path to Sach Khand.)

It is totally obvious that all of the commenters above, with the exception of Brian, are in one way or another, attempting to challenge Brian for his freedom of spirit, thought, and views, while at the same time are repeatedly asserting their narrow-minded Sant Mat dogma. This Church of the Churchless web-log is not for the purpose of such Radha Soami preaching. It is for open-minded consideration and inquiry into the mystery of life, and what, if anything, is real.

Why don't you hard-line Sant Mat satsangis simply go elsewhere and hang out with other like-minded satsangis, and leave this blog to those who are more interested in advancing towards greater and broader spiritual understanding and insight. I for one, and I know Brian is also, more than familiar with ALL of the Sant Mat dogma and rhetoric. So more of the comments and commenters such as the ones above, are not saying anything new here. There is no point in wasting more and more space on this web-log with the same old repetitive Sant Mat preaching.

I hope you will respect those who choose to think for themseves, just as we respect your rights to follow Sant Mat if you so choose. So why don't all you "believers" just go to your satsangs, and leave us free-spirits to own own thoughts and views.

Respectfully,

Doctor Tao

[moomoo]

I liked the comment from "voodoo" calling himself a free spirit and looking for broader spiritual understanding. And I see that church for churchless is also a cult in itself. It has a so called self styled master and self styled awakened souls who do not like themselves to be called as "followers" but "like minded".

The idea is not to support RSSB or Jesus or Budha or anybody else.

The idea is, either you don't believe in God and if you do then search for a path and stick to it. If you do not like that, move on. But moving on depends on the comfort level of a person with the current path. Just because a person is not comfortable, doesn't mean that ideology could be wrong.

I am a firm believer in God and I read about different religions and path. I can see similarities between them. So there has to be a truth behind that. I justify the subtle differences due to the fact that they came in different times. I am still a seeker and not have aligned to any path or movement. And during my search I came across this blog and read some articles and comments.

My understanding is, Brian is an atheist to some extent and he tries to put his limited intellect in various theories and comes up with articles that if read (without knowing a background or context) look good.

I have read some posts of Brian where he himself has said that he was fired from some RSSB association and then he was happy to have a request to write something for an RSSB magazine. If he is so firm on his decisions or views about RSSB, why he doesn't politely say no to it. Many people have done it. Why not him?

He cannot, because he loves to see fan messages (like voodoo's). This is where you see so many self styled masters. You go to them and feel very comfortable and you think that this is the best path. But over a period of time you feel that your personality is being subdued and you leave for another.

And then there would be a case, where you will see a real master, but then if you are not able to succeed in the goals (like spiritual progress) you say that the path is bad. But then one sees people who have some progress and are happy.

The second case is more relevant to me as I am going through this.

Voodoo, when somebody creates a blog, then actually deep within he/she wants people to know his views and admire. He/She and his/her fans should also be ready to accept the other types of comments.

[tell me]

Moomoo,

It seems, Voodoo is no one but self bragging Brian :-). I liked the way he wrote "Great post Brian"

BTW, Brian is, the owner, the founder, and the editor of this web-log.

Nobody knew it. Thanks for telling.

Come out of quagmire and stop being hypocrite.

[voodoo on the doodoo]

To "tell me":

*** I will tell you this... I am definitely not Brian... and the only "hypocrites" in any "quagmire" around here, are the ones who keep spewwing out their stupid drivel of rigid RSSB beliefs and dogmas, and who hide behind fake non-existant e-mail addresses such as "[email protected]" and "[email protected]". You have not fooled anyone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To "moomoo":

moomoo wrote: "I see that church for churchless is also a cult in itself."

*** No dummy, its not a "cult", its just one guy's little blog.

"moomoo" wrote: It has a so called self styled master and self styled awakened souls who do not like themselves to be called as "followers" but "like minded"."

*** No again, "moomoo"... I think that Brian really frowns on the whole "master" gig, and so do I. Nor do I claim to be anything such as "awakened", "soul", "follower", or "like-minded".

moomoo wrote: "The idea is not to support RSSB or Jesus or Budha or anybody else."

*** Well I think you got that one right. I don't know about Brian, but I myself don't "support" any cults, saviors, or myths.

moomoo wrote: "Just because a person is not comfortable, doesn't mean that ideology could be wrong."

*** People may or may not be "comfortable"...that is their problem to deal with. However, it is my opinion that ALL "ideology" is wrong. Ideology manifests as belief(s). People do not need idealogy and beliefs to be free. Freedom is simply to be free of all "ideology". Freedom is innate, it does not come from belief. Belief and ideology is anti-thetical to freedom.

moomoo wrote: "I am a firm believer in God"

*** Well holy friggin hallehlueah!!! ... So then what are you doing here in the Church of the Churchless ? ...looking for more "believers" ? ...you're in the wroing damn palce if thats the reason.

moomoo wrote: "...about different religions and path.... So there has to be a truth behind that."

*** Faulty logic. There is no "truth" in religions and paths...Truth stands alone, it is not "behind" anything. It is only ignorance which thinks that Truth can be somehow contained in religions, paths, or beliefs. The fault is a matter of mistaking the outer appearance for being the truth.

moomoo wrote: " I am still a seeker and not have aligned to any path or movement."

*** Good...stay free and don't fall into the traps of belief and dogma.

moomoo wrote: "... Brian is an atheist to some extent and he tries to put his limited intellect in various theories..."

*** No, wrong again... I think Brian is much more of an open-minded Agnostic, not an "atheist".

moomoo wrote: "I have read ...Brian where he himself has said that he was fired from some RSSB association..."

*** I don't think that "fired" is correct either. I think Brian stopped giving RS satsang due to his generally not supporting the authoritarian side of the organization. Brian can speak better than I about that.

moomoo wrote: "If he is so firm on his decisions or views about RSSB, why he doesn't politely say no to it. Many people have done it. Why not him?"

*** He has. Get your facts straight "moomoo" He has said "no" to it, in so many various ways.

moomoo wrote: "He cannot, because he loves to see fan messages (like voodoo's)."

*** Wrong again. Brian does not give a damn about any such "fan messages".... and I am not a "fan" of anyone. I am only myself, and I am no-one and nothing. You can't pidgeon-hole me, because I am not a some-body.

moomoo wrote: "This is where you see so many self styled masters.... But over a period of time you feel that your personality is being subdued and you leave for another."

*** I have not seen any genuine "masters" anywhere, "self styled" or otherwise. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as "a master" (except in the mind of slaves). The entire "master" game is nothing but nonsense. It is a absolute lie. It is an illusion, a fantasy, a myth. It is a deception....perpetrated by con-artists, and perpetuated by fools. And all so-called "masters" are simply frauds.

moomoo wrote: "...a case, where you will see a real master"

*** "Masters" are a myth..."real" means nothing. (a myth is a myth, whether you call it "real" or not) "Masters" are only an illusion existing in the minds of ignorant people who lack Self-knowledge. Free yourself from the "master" myth. Forget about "masters" and simply discover who YOU are.

moomoo wrote: "but then if you are not able to succeed in the goals (like spiritual progress) you say that the path is bad."

*** The "path" is only "bad", because it is simply an illusion, and even the one who would traverse the path is also an illusion as well. The seeker is himself the sought. You do not need "a path" to your own Self, just BE AS YOU ARE.

moomoo wrote: "But then one sees people who have some progress and are happy."

*** That is also an illusion. "Progress" is not happiness. Freedom is happiness... freedom from "paths", freedom from "progress", freedom from beliefs, freedom from illusions, freedom from the myth of "masters", and freedom from the illusion of separate and mortal individuality.

moomoo wrote: "...when somebody creates a blog, then actually deep within he/she wants people to know his views and admire...and... should also be ready to accept the other types of comments."

*** Blogs are simply to share one's views with the world. But there is no implication of desire for admiration. This bolg is simply a forum for Brian to share his views. As for "accept the other types of comments", it is obvious that comments are allowed, but that does not mean that Sant Mat and RSSB satsangis should repeatedly load up the comment section with their very rigid and narrow-minded dogma and beliefs. Both Brian an myself, as well as others, know just about every thing about Sant Mat (between us we have over 55 years of combined experience with Sant Mat and RSSB), so if I may take the liberty to speak broadly, we really do not need closed-minded satsangis coming in here to preach their Sant Mat dogma over and over again. If that is what they (or you)want to do, then they should go to their Satsangs, or to satsangi internet groups, and do their preaching there. This is for people who are intertested in "the gospel of spiritual independence", as Brian indicates in the title of this site.

[moomoo]

Stop running behind the mirage called "truth". The truth I talked about is the way we use this word in day to day life. True and False. Simple. Not the so called "truth" that you are also not aware what it is. No need to be hyper critical. Using the word "truth" in your statements, you have just shown that its a rhetoric that anybody can google.

ALL ideologies are wrong. What about idealogy of spiritual independence?

Actually its the people who are following an idealogy are wrong. Spiritual independence might be ok, but the people following it, when do not need it, call it bad. Why they choose to start with any idealogy so early before even analysing where they are jumping in?

When Brian himself said that he was fired (read his posts), then who are you to say that he wasn't. A self-styled slave of his ideas naaah "like-minded" peer.

Brian is an atheist deep inside. He just gels in the so called masses and tries to utter what some voodoos want to listen.

I am a firm believer - that doesn't stop me in looking out for different perspectives.

I don't have anything to do with RSS magazine, but for the argument, he has never said no to posting in RSS magazine. He was fired on October 17 or October 18. Why he did not alienated himself from that once he knew that the ideology is not correct for him. Instead he continued with the so called satsangs and writing blogs. There he was happy to see people listening to him attentively and here people responding well. This is nothing but he is feeding his ego. And people like you are also there. When his forum's ppl did not like his blurts, they fired him. Hypocrite.

Voodoo in a way you are a slave of your so called notion of spiritual independence. You have made a set of beliefs on your path to spiritual independence. Those beliefs are nothing but anti-other-beliefs.

And when people are happy of their progress means that they are saisfied with the results. We can use flowery language to describe happiness but it ends up with a person's contentment in whatever he has. Either so called independence or spiritual progress.

"between us we have over 55 years of combined experience with Sant Mat and RSSB" .. why you did not tell that you are a baby sitter for him in crisis.

Non existent email ids are for spammers, not to hide any identity. By the way who knows Brian and you. Who knows that he is writing these articles. May be, its outsourced. So don't talk about identity on internet.

I don't know much about RSSB, but its followers have a freedom to support whatever they feel is right as you feel strongly to - oh ho - again so called "spiritual independence"

Spiritual independence doesn't necessarily mean talking about others. Read the post from "Just do it".

Brian, be bold and come forward and tell people the actual reason why you left an ideology after 34 years. And this so called voodoo who shares another 21 years to make 55 between you and him. Its funny somehow.

Just to say that I liked the statement by "trying_to_answer" - If you don't deserve, you will not get.

I think you did not get what you wanted on your terms. Thats why you said Masters are a myth and the whole ideology went wrong for you. You both look like loosers now. Anyway after spending 55 years (between you both) anybody can get frustrated and look for not so ceratin goals (again so called - spiritual independence).

Actually the word independence is awe-inspiring.

I will definitely wait for your comments and more than eager to reply. So behave. Else you both (55 yrs - pun intended) will loose the purpose of this blog.

[voodoo]

To "moomoo":

There is no "mirage called "truth". The term "truth" has many implications depending on the context. I also use it in the same "day to day" way.

moomoo wrote: "the so called "truth" that you are also not aware what it is."

You don't know anything of what I am aware of, or not aware of. Your attempt at pigeon-holing shows your foolishness.

moomoo wrote: "What about idealogy of spiritual independence?" What about it? It is not the title of my blog. Nor do I think that Brian considers it an "ideology" either, but then you'll have to ask him that question yourself. I don't even care.

moomoo wrote: "Brian himself said that he was fired (read his posts), then who are you to say that he wasn't." ...and... "A self-styled slave of his ideas naaah "like-minded" peer".

His use of the term "fired" may not be literal, so again, you will have to ask him yourself whether he was asked not to give satsang, or simply stopped giving satsang on his own. Your attempt at tripping me up is vain and pointless. Furthermore, I am not "like-minded" to anything , and I am a "slave" to no one. But you are nothing but a pidgeon-holing little punk who who has no self-understanding.

moomoo wrote: "Brian is an atheist deep inside..... and tries to utter what some voodoos want to listen."

How would you know? You do not. Nor does your judgement matter whatsoever....though apparently you have some particular hang-up about "atheists".

moomoo wrote: "I am a firm believer"

I couldn't give a damn what you believe. All belief stems from nescience.

moomoo wrote: "Why he did not alienated himself from that once he knew that the ideology is not correct for him. Instead he continued with the so called satsangs and writing blogs....This is nothing but he is feeding his ego."

Brian can do anything he chooses....that is is freedom. Why don't you go back to wherever you came from...because you are simply naking a fool of yourself here.

moomoo wrote: "...you are a slave of your so called notion of spiritual independence...You have made a set of beliefs on your path to spiritual independence"

Like I already told you, but apparently you are so dense that you can't even understand plain english, I am a slave to no one. I am not into "beliefs". I don't believe in "God", "masters", "spiritual independence", or any of the other heaps of rubbish which abound in the spiritual arena. If you can't get that, then what are you doing here?

moomoo wrote: "why you did not tell that you are a baby sitter for him in crisis."

And you are are nothing but a disrespectful and foolish little punk who has nothing better to do but make vain attempts at undermining the sharing of honest, candid, and inquiring people like Brian.

moomoo wrote: "Non existent email ids are for spammers, not to hide any identity."

That is a BS lie...I checked you out. Your e-mail address is totally false and non-existant. Now you are simply an outright liar.

moomoo wrote; "By the way who knows Brian and you. Who knows that he is writing these articles."

Yes..who knows? ... well I know, because I know that Brain is a real person....But agai, you are simply a puffed-up liitle punk of a liar. Go back where you came from before the truth rains on your pathetic little parade.

moomoo wrote: "Spiritual independence doesn't necessarily mean..."

It means whatever you want it to mean, dummy. Brian will like be a little more tactful with you than I, but that's because it's his Blog. I can be much more blunt, and I am.... and thats MY "spiritual independence", little smart-ass.

moomoo wrote: "Brian, be bold and come forward and tell people the actual reason why you left an ideology after 34 years."

Brian has alrady done that many times over... and he does not owe you any further explanation whatsoever, unless he chooses to do so.

moomoo wrote: "Its funny somehow."

Yeah..."funny" is right...and you're "It".

moomoo wrote: "If you don't deserve, you will not get."

I don't need "to get"....I already GOT !

moomoo wrote: "...you did not get what you wanted on your terms." ...and... "...and the whole ideology went wrong for you."

I had no "terms", nor do I have any "terms" now. I don't need anything, especially the RSSB cult nonsense. Nor did anything "go wrong"...In fact after I dumped my affiliation with the RSSB, everything went RIGHT.

moomoo wrote: "You both look like loosers now."

Sorry to disillusion you, but the only "looser" here is some pathetic fool named "moomoo".

moomoo wrote: "So behave."

And you can go find a toilet to unload your friggin brain into :- D heh heh heh !

[tell me]

Points to think

1. Voodoo is Brian.
2. Voodoo is Brian's alter ego
3. Voodoo is Brian's typist
4. Voodoo is call center guy for Brian in sahara, hired to support Brian against not so good comments and to pump Brian's ego whenever there is a fan mail.
5. Voodoo is a social activist who works for Brian.
6. Voodoo is Brian's mind.
7. Voodoo is CEO of blogs.com
8. Voodoo is toilet roll
9. Brian is Voodoo's perception of God.
10. http://www.voodoo.net/ is the perfect identity
11 Voodoo is Laurel
12 Voodoo is the other member in the family. You got it!!!

Enough! Rest would follow.

[moomoo]

"Non existent email ids are for spammers, not to hide any identity."

In plain english it means that its to avoid spammers. So stop the BS of arguing on every line.

Firing not in a literal sense -- this is how you loosers wrap up your faults or wrong sayings/doings.

"pigeon-holing" must be a latest mantra from Brian for you or may be his dog.

And speaking of disrespectful, you seem to be the dog in their family. Clarify with Brian. Is he mentioning you in the other blog?

Its freedom of our speech and thought. If non supportive comments are not what you want, make it moderated. Stop acting like an ass and showing dirty teeth for every line.

And be blunt to eat your shit. I give a damn.

No body especially the likes of Brian and you would admit that they are loosers.

"I already GOT" - chauvinistic pig. May be a calendar for 2006. Who cares !!!

And when you will see wrong with current independence, leave it and everything would be again RIGHT. An ass tied to a pole will go round and round.

I am not a looser, because I haven't spent 55 years (between us - stupid) for nothing. You should know better. But hypocrites would never admit. We know it. You can have millions of years of experiences if you count between you and shit.

I agree that I am in disillusion, and I can work on it, what about some ass***** who are also disillusioned but call themselves enlightened. Just because they spent 55 years doing nothing.

Eat yours. Take up in yours.

[GM]

Blaah, blah-blah, blah-blah...

My favorite part of the post was this comment by Cynthia:

I think that I am finally ready to accept responsibility for my own spiritual growth.

If more people would take responsibility for his/her own spiritual growth, then it wouldn't matter what another believes or doesn't believe; whom another supports or doesn't agree with; how another acheives enlightenment or stays actively agnostic.

:)

[weaver001]

In response to Cynthia and Brian's thoughts I'm offering my personal, subjective observations as follows: there exists in Sanskrit the word 'shruti' - that which is heard, and it refers directly to the 'cosmic sounds of truth' as well as the oral teachings that are conveyed from teacher to student. And then there is the concept of 'smiriti' - that which is remembered (the heresay that often becomes entrenched in books and religious dogmas.)

In the not insignificant number of times in which I have been physically present with Gurinder Dhillon and listened directly to his words (a practice akin to that of 'shruti') I have never heard him claim to be God in human form. I have never heard him pass judgement on homosexuality (in fact I have heard him say repeatedly 'do not judge another human being'). I have never heard him advocate fanaticism or extreme behaviour. I have never heard him say the Master takes on the karma of 3 million people. I have never heard him say the mind is evil. I have never heard him say we will be punished if we don't obey the Master. And I have never heard him say we can't interface directly with God. However, I HAVE even heard him say that women are often capable of far greater spiritual commitment and discipline than men are and that there are MANY Masters in the world at any given moment in time.

In June 2005 I was present when a young man asked Gurinder Dhillon "Are you God in human form?" and his reply was simply "Brother, who ISN'T God in human form?" In fact so much of what I have heard him say has been practical, compassionate and advocating a logically questioning attitude.

In practising Sant Mat I ONLY go by the spoken word of the teacher as I myself have heard it first-hand. The rest, I disregard. I'm afraid this goes for the Sant Mat books and tapes as well as the stories that Satsangis love to repeat and the speculations which they entertain. I only pay attention to the spoken word of my teacher and my personal experience of it. This is what I base my practise on ... and nothing else.

[krp1010]

Having been present during numerous Q&A sessions with not just Baba Gurinder Singhji but Huzur Maharaj Charan Singhji as well, I would like to respond to some of the statements made by Cynthia (fully respecting her decision to quit the path) and Brian (respecting his disagreement with the principles of the path).

Firstly, I believe that spiritual texts are open to interpretation, I am sure most of us agree. Sprituality is more than just words on paper, therefore quoting texts is, in most cases, not necessarily enough to remove all doubt. We are not given the ability to reason or exercise discretion for nothing. What is taught during satsangs is just as important as what is contained in the texts, and the following is what I have gathered, in very clear terms, from attending Radhasoami satsangs.

- GIHF, I believe this GIHF issue has been misunderstood or taken out of context. RSSB teachings say that the human form itself is the very shrine of our Creator. The Guru is physically no different from us but is at the highest stage of spiritual advancement. He is in constant communion with the Creator, which is why he is our Guru in the first place. You may question that all you want, but you are probably better off devoting all that time and effort towards your own spiritual development instead.

- Cynthia, in relation to your views on the Guru picking out the 'select few' or the 'chosen ones', I understand you are concerned about where this leaves others in your family (or non-initiates in general). Further to that, I presume you probably do understand that Santmat itself purports that it is NOT the only path to salvation (contrary to the beliefs of some of the posters on this blog) but one of many paths that exist in the world today, including of course religions. Religions are described as different paths all leading to the same goal, alongside which Santmat can be practiced - consider it a catalyst to the process of attaining salvation. Likewise there are other such paths. If not with Santmat, your husband will find his faith elsewhere, if not in this lifetime then surely in the next. Everyone's time will come eventually. The 'select few' are not chosen by the Guru but by the Lord, thus a divine pull is created between the Guru and the seeker, which brings them together. That is the Santmat perspective.

- One's sexual orientation has no relation whatsoever to his or her spiritual development. Whether or not homosexuality is unnatural is irrelevant because it has no implications in terms of spirituality. From personal experience I can tell you that Santmat is neutral towards homosexuals. No one is turned away from Santmat for any reason.

- As you must be well aware, meditation is an exercise that requires utmost focus and concentration, which is easier said than done. The presence of others is not conducive to the act of meditation. Therefore, meditation in groups is discouraged.

- Maybe I have missed something here but I have yet to come across a religion wherein it is possible to interface with God directly. Perhaps I have misunderstood your meaning. My understanding, from the perspective of most religions, is that we would be able to interface with Him IF He meant for us to do so. However, we cannot and there is a reason for that. Your call if you want to spend precious time looking for that reason whereas that time could be better spent moving closer to Him through spiritual development.

- When you think about it, whether or not you are a believer in the Path, it is hard to deny that the mind is one very powerful entity. Overcoming the mind is an exercise in discipline which, once achieved, serves to aid the process of meditation and spiritual development.

- NEVER in all these years of following this Path have I EVER come across anyone or any text saying that bad things will happen to those who chose to disobey the Guru. Yes it may impede spiritual development, which is bad enough as it is (possibly what they meant when whoever it is that told you this mentioned it), but as far as going to hell is concerned...?

- '...someone secretly feeding an initiate an egg, and causing that person to come back in the reincarnation cycle...' If it was secretly fed to you, rest assured He is watching. He will never let something like that get in the way of your spiritual development. In fact being secretly fed an egg should be the least of your worries.

To conclude, followers of the path are not subject to swearing by every word contained in the texts. Disciples are not expected to follow like mindless zombies. The "You're either with us or against us." line is just not Santmat, I am sorry if that is the impression that you got. I hope that you do find your spiritual calling in another path and wish you all the best. Peace.

[tao]

To krp1010:

krp1010 wrote: "You may question that all you want..."

Well I definitely question your soft-peddling attempts to rationalize and defend your Sant Mat presumptions, beliefs, and dogma. At the same time, you are apparently assuming that its obvious discrepancies, contradictions, dualities, and dogma are unquestionable. Here are some of your unfounded statements and my responses:

"The Guru ........ is at the highest stage of spiritual advancement."

This is not certain fact. This is only your presumption and belief. Just because you believe this does not make it true. I do not accept your assertion that "The Guru" (ie: your guru) is "at the highest stage of spiritual advancement". In fact, there is little or no indication that the leader of RSSB has attained or abides in the highest spiritual realization. In my view, this belief simply has no factual evidence to support it. You pass this assertion off on intelligent readers as if it is unquestionable. It is only your opinion, not truth.

"He is in constant communion with the Creator, which is why he is our Guru in the first place."

Again, another mere unfounded opinion. You say that he is "first" your Guru, because you presume him to be "in constant communion with the Creator". The ideas in this statement are not proven reality. One, that "he" is a "guru" at all (just because he is a leader of a cult does not make him a true Guru). Two, that he is actually "in constant commmunion". Three, that there exists any such "Creator" at all. So your one little statement is composed of three completely unproven and unfounded assumptions or beliefs.

"Maybe I have missed something here but I have yet to come across a religion wherein it is possible to interface with God directly."

I think that you may have missed one very important thing, and that is that it is highly unlikely, I would say even perhaps impossible, to "interface with God directly" through "religion". Religion is merely faith and belief. "God" is a whole different matter. I personally do not think that religion and belief has anything to do with what is the true nature or reality of "God", so why even compare it?

"My understanding.....is that we would be able to interface with Him IF He meant for us to do so."

Again, presuming that "Him" or "God" even exists, or means or has any intentions at all. This notion is typical of the irresponsible and disempowered mentality of most believers. It is my understanding that "God" does not mean, choose, or have any intention towards anything or anyone, but rather it all depends on one's allowing, acceptance, and real surrender to WHAT IS. That does not mean surrender to some other human individual or person, like some cult guru.

"However, we cannot and there is a reason for that."

"Cannot" and "a reason" are just more limiting presumptions. All you are asserting is more of your personal beliefs, not proven facts.

"...time could be better spent moving closer to Him through spiritual development."

If that is true, then why are you here asserting your unsubstantiated beliefs and debating these issues? You should simply practice what you preach instead of telling others to engage in "spiritual development".

"...secretly feeding an initiate an egg.... rest assured He is watching. He will never let something like that get in the way of your spiritual development."

Is "He" watching? Does "He" even exist beyond being an idea in your mind? And as for "rest assured"...well that sort of feeble consolation may satisfy you, but it does not mean diddly to some of us. Nor does eating eggs or no eggs. All I can say to that is: Free your mind from such ridiculous beliefs and acquired conceptual limitations.

"Disciples are not expected to follow like mindless zombies."

I disagree with that as well. As a matter of fact, RS satsangis are endlessly admonished not to question or think, but only to do internal mantra repetition meditation, and "leave the rest to the master". If this is not a formula for zombie-ism, then why are satsangis so typically narrow-minded, dogmatic, and dissociative? ... Answer: Because Sant Mat and RSSB fosters MINDLESS-ness.

[Nemesis]

Mr Tao yet again demonstrates breathtaking rudeness and dismissiveness on this blog. If sant mat apologists are mindless, then you are heartless in your unending stream of abuse directed towards this path and its adherents. You could do with lessons in tolerance and humility which are the keystone of any truly spiritual viewpoint.
Instead of engaging with your point by point dueling approach I would like to suggest you apply all your criticisms to yourself. You clearly left sant mat through utter failure to realise anything about the path and now have so many axes to grind and spleens to vent that you must be at the metaphysical hardware store and outpatients on a full time basis. You clearly have no problem with having the time to spew this stuff out, unlike some of us; so your intolerant and mean minded spew will receive short sharp shrift from hereon in.
You are unable to demonstrate that any of your metaphysical views are inherently better or clearer than anyone elses. That is the nature of metaphysics. It is all unprovable in any rigorous or absolute sense and is reducilble to faith ultimately. You are advised to study some basic philosophical grounding in this regard; try Immanuel Kant and David Hume and stop your arrogant posturing and sant mat bashing. Try being a critic with heart as Brian is and not a heartless abuser, who can barely conceal their agenda driven tirades against one other path in particular. You are offensive to the ideal of inter faith dialogue and comparative religious understanding. Grow up and cease using your intellect like a classroom bully. How can anyone have any dialogue of any real critical depth with a correspondent that can only dismiss, run down, abuse and demean.
Happy new year to you. I mean that sincerely, but also sincerely wish that you would adopt some kinder means of expressing your views otherwise you will continue to attract your nemesis.

[tao]

nemesis writes: "breathtaking rudeness and dismissiveness"

Gee thanks, and how about this: I think you are a babbling buffoon and your feeble-minded defense of sant mat is half-baked horseshit.

"point by point dueling approach"

If you can't take the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.

"you are heartless ... towards this path and its adherents"

And guru-goons like nemesis are spineless sant-titty-suckers.

"...left sant mat through utter failure to realise anything about the path"

I realized all thatI needed to about it...that it is a fraud from the get-go which is perpetuated by a few deceiptful cowards and followed by ignorant weak-minded suck-ups.

"You are unable to demonstrate that any of your metaphysical views are inherently better or clearer than anyone elses."

I don't have any "metaphysical" views, and the burden of the proof is on those guru-goons like "krp1010" and yourself who presume sant mat dogma to be Holy unquestionable truth.

"It is all unprovable in any rigorous or absolute sense and is reducilble to faith ultimately."

"Unprovable" is right!....but "faith" is just belief generated blind hope . Compared to the rock of WHAT IS, "faith" is merely relying on the unknown and the unseen.

"a heartless abuser .... against one other path in particular"

I am not simply against "one other path", I am critical of all contrived dogma, and gurus who manipulate and use foolish seekers and followers for their own power, position, material, and self-importance.

"You are offensive to the ideal of.... comparative religious understanding."

The sloyal ant mat believers and dogmatists who frequent this site have absolutely no interest in "comparitive religious understanding". All they do is repeatedly preach their sant mat and RSSB beliefs as though it is the gospel truth. As I pointed out before, that kind of thing is excessive, boring, and wearisome. I think both Brian and myself are much more zen, taoist, universal, and agnostic in outlook.

"How can anyone have any dialogue of any real critical depth with a correspondent that can only dismiss?"

Who said there has to be any dialog, and I don't see nemesis prodicing any valid "critical depth". Furthermore, I will surely "dismiss" anything or anyone who foists their hollow dogma and religious beliefs upon the readers expecting it to be accepted as a given.

"I ...wish that you would adopt some kinder means of expressing your views"

I don't see your communications and responses as particularly emanating kindness at all. Furthermore, I don't give a damn about your sensitivity. Like I said, if you have not got any real substance, then don't step into the frey.

[hitesh]

Every one in world has different mind view,and no body compels u to do things,which u dont want.if u could not find any thing worth in rssb's meditation techniques,then guru is not responsible for that,its u who has not followed the path ...he teaches u to die and u r post shows u r in search of art of living ...so in my opinion u shall never b benifited...and about teachers relation with each other,than i must tell u ,u in whole ur life can never get people of such greatness,they never show u all super natural power of their,all though they are able to do any thing in this world..u tell me could lord jeasus not kill all his enemies,yes but he did not..like him all true mans in the world never shown their power.they spent their life like normal human being,and people panalised for thet after their death...so if u dont believe in rssb no body is loosing any thing except u.

[dr dushyant]

hi this is accidently that i could see this site. i would also like to comment on spirtuality.i came to know that cynthia is seeking spirtuality.she had made efforts for that and stll making for it.i came to know that cynthia initially liked the rssconcept but now she does not.she now believes in complete freedom from any dogma .iwould like to say that its entirely her will where she wants to carry herself.after all she has to follow her destiny too.our thoughts develope their shapes according to our destiny.if your destiny wants you to drift from radha soami path then you can not follow it anylonger.but if your destiy wants u back on path your thoughts will automatically change .so its not in your hand entirly.our destiny is in god s hand .cynthia is not the first one who has drifted from the path .many and many are drifted.but eventually all come on the path because of his pull.its matter of time.i did it many times so every body.i know this path since childhood.i have studied it alot.but i could not run on it because of my shortcomings.so at least i cannot blame master for not succeeding on the path.cynthia you seems to be true seeker of spirtuality.i respect you for that.and even if you follow budhism but do your meditiation according to your spirtual master i can surely say that you are still on the path not away from it.you might say you have left santmat but shabd or nam would not leave you.you r still connected with word so u will remain forever.this is bond of love.no one can break it.i wish you all the best for your life and success.

dr dushyant waiting for your reply.

[Cynthia]

Dr. Dushyant,

Thanks for your comment. It's not that I don't like the RSSB concept. There are many things that I do like about this path and have learned from the path. I have met many wonderful satsangis--some of the most loving and caring people in my life, and with whom I still keep in touch. I believe that meditation is the way to know (what we can) about God, as opposed to searching for this knowledge in the material world. I believe in learning from others--teachers--and so I viewed the Master as a teacher for me. I believe in reincarnation and karma. I don't use drugs or alcohol, because I believe they cloud the mind.

I can't say that I am free of dogma. I think each one of us has "dogma" or tenets that we follow according to how we view life and our role in it. I have incorporated the tenets of Sant Mat that work for me, which is how I have always approached spirituality. But there are other tenets that are important to me that Sant Mat would not support because they are not in-line with the "dogma" of Sant Mat. And I think that individual differences should be allowed. And maybe they are, on an individual level. I do know of some satsangis who declare themselves to be on the path, but eat eggs, for instance. And I don't think God would have a problem with that, even though RSSB does.

I do not blame anyone, the Master or myself, and I don't see myself as having any "shortcomings" because of my decision.

I believe I am on a spiritual path -- my OWN path -- as I believe each one of us is. I heard some rumors recently that RSSB now views initiation as more about learning a meditation technique and less about the guru leading you to salvation by connecting your soul with Shabd. That makes more sense to me, especially after reading that some past gurus are not even aware that their forms have appeared to their initiates. How could one Master be cognizant of the thoughts and deeds of 3 million satsangis? I think it is our mind, in its love for the Master, that creates his image inside of us (and in some cases, I have heard, makes his form appear to us in our daily lives). But I believe, at the end of the day, that each one of us has a personal responsibility to make the effort to know God. We cannot give this responsibility (e.g., karma) to someone else to manage for us. Others can be our teachers and help to show us the way, but cannot do it for us. Each of us has God within us, and so it is our individual duty to connect with that aspect of ourselves, according to our own personal life path.

I am open to returning to the RSSB path if that is what I am drawn to do down the road. Who knows what the next 20 or 30 years will bring? I just know that right now I am where I am supposed to be, and God is OK with it, because that part of me is telling me so.

Thanks again. All the best to you, too.
Cynthia

[tao]

A previous commenter, named "dr dushant", has given some responses, opinions, and personal beliefs to Cynthia about leaving the Sant Mat.

Here are my own responses regarding the (quoted) comments of dr dushant:

Dr Dushant wrote:
"i came to know that cynthia initially liked the rssconcept but now she does not. she now believes in complete freedom from any dogma."

Response: People are free to change their minds about what they like, their spiritual orientations, and what they believe. If Cynthia wishes to be free of "dogma", then that is a personal choice.

"...after all she has to follow her destiny too. our thoughts develope their shapes according to our destiny. if your destiny wants you to drift from radha soami path then you can not follow."

This idea of having to follow "destiny" is only the opinion and belief of dr dushant. It is not necessarily an inflexible fact or a reality. The idea that thoughts are according to "destiny" is also a mere belief. It is not an absolute fact. This idea and these statements imply that human beings are not free, and can act only in accordance with the dictates of some supposed "destiny".

"if your destiny wants u back on path your thoughts will automatically change."

Again, this statement charges that conscious beings and their thoughts are mere puppets of some abstract "destiny". This notion is very dis-empowering and confining. It does not engender liberation from the constraints of philosophical beliefs and mental and spiritual rigidity.

"our destiny is in gods hand. cynthia is not the first one who has drifted from the path."

Again, this is the same notion that "our destiny" is somehow out of our control, and that we can not choose the direction of our lives.

"eventually all come on the path because of his pull."

This is a further progression of the 'God is controlling' idea. In this case it is used to infer that all people, or perhaps all satsangis, are simply doomed to inevitably return to "the path" (ie: the Sant Mat), because of "his pull" (the "pull" of "God" or "master"). I must certainly disagree. I find it also somewhat presumptive and offensive to assert a belief to someone that their own life is somehow controlled by some supposed "God" or another human being ("master" or "guru").

"i could not run on it because of my shortcomings. so at least i cannot blame master for not succeeding on the path."

At least this is a confession of personal responsibility, but I would not call it "shortcomings". There are no "shortcomings" or "not succeeding". Life does not always go the way that some artifically imposed spiritual ideal dictates. One should not feel guilty about the course of one's life. As for "cannot blame master", it never had anything to do with some other individual anyway. This reflects how satsangis think that the "master" is some exalted being of perfection, which is nonsense. All I can say about "blame" is that both disciple and master are to blame. The disciple for believing in an illusion, and the master for allowing and perpetuating the illusions of his followers, and not setting them free from dogma and authoritarian agendas.

"even if you follow budhism but do your meditiation according to your spirtual master i can surely say that you are still on the path."

This statement first pretends to concede a little to Cynthia's Buddhist leanings, but then slips in the same old Sant Mat "do your meditation according to your spiritual master" rhetoric. My opinion is that this kind of attempt at subtle insertion and consolation, does not respect the other person's freedom to choose another way of spirituality or meditation, or even none at all.

"you might say you have left santmat but shabd or nam would not leave you." -- and -- "you r still connected with word so u will remain forever."

Again, the same kind of subtle influence which also again implies the belief that once one is initiated into Sant Mat, they are somehaow forever bound. I have heard thjios so many times, and it always rubs me the wrong way. With all due respect, I am sure dr dushant means well, but this kind of notion is also referred to as: "when one has passed the point of no return". There is no such absolute. My argument is that this statement is an clear imposition which violates ones freedom of mind and spiritual sovereignty. The same general idea is also frequently used as a form of cult mind-control. If dr dushant chooses to believe that "shabda or nam" is somehting which they will never escape from, then that is dr dushan's choice. But it is wrong to try to impose it upon other ex-satsangis who have left Sant Mat.

"this is bond of love.no one can break it."

I know this affirmation sounds nice and consoling, but it has nothing to do with reality. The only time there may be a "bond of love" is when there is. Not all disciples love their so-called "master". Nor can the so-called "master" have a genuine bond of love with disciples which he does not know personally. Anyone can have Universal Love, but in reality, Love iteself is not something which anyone has or dispenses, but rather "Love" is that which is the essential nature of all apparently individual beings. Love could be said to be simply what we are. In the case of this comment, the so-called "bond of love" and "no one can break it" again sounds like an imposed constraint. Maybe there is a sense of love, and maybe there is not. It is not up to others to determine love, and to say that a bond cannot be broken. This is the same kind of subtle imposition as was the previous comment statement.

In conclusion, I would assume that dr dushant had good intentions in his consolations to Cynthia, but I am even more certain that Cynthia is quite able to choose her own spiritual direction, and needs no consolations aimed at bring her "back into the fold" of Sant Mat and RSSB. This type of thing seems to be an issue with some satsangis. It is reminiscient of Christians trying to bring sinners back into church. But in this site, Brian has endeavored to create a "Church of the Church-LESS". That means that people like Cynthia do not have to be subtly influenced and drawn back into returning to Sant Mat, or told that they will never really escape. I would hope that this site is a place where people can enjoy freedom from spiritual beliefs, dogma, "masters", and cults.

[im confused]

i dont know what to believ in the rssb,jesus,

[dr dushyant]

hello mr tao,
you r absolutely right that whatever i have mentioned in my previous comment is my belief my personal belief not influenced by others .we all human beings believe in some thing or else based on our past experiences and logic.so the same i did .we all have our own beliefs .even science believes many things without proof.many assumptions are made first then science works on that wether its true or not.even scientific concepts keep on changing .concepts of science about mass and energy were diffrent before einstein gave his theory.may be tomorrow some body else replaces his concept so how can be so sure about everything in this situation we have to take the support of our beliefs only .no other option is left.we can not impose our beliefs on other,but we can definitely express ourselves to others. thats what i have done .nothing more than that.i am not challanging your ideology or somebody else s i equaly respect your comments becos they are based on your personal experience. so keep it up .and all the best. we all are constantly searching for something or the else.so everybody is trying for it.so let us share are veiws so that it may help each other.thank you .

[dr dushyant]

i want to respond to cynthia too.

cynthia thank you very much for replying.so nice of you. my belief is that our relation with god is direct .no organisation wether its church or rssb can interfere in our relation with god .if one seek god one should search for it.everybody would not search for god .those who are hungry only ,will search for food.others do not care .the one who is hungry understands the pain of hunger others do not know.for others god seeking is just an illusion and wastage of time.everybody can not satisfy with worldly pleasures.may be becos of that santmat is not for everybody.
one more thing i would like to say that our relation with our master is as individual as the child has with mother .no organisation or its rules can come in between.that is why i tell you that going away from organisation does not mean going away from your master.you can go away from physical form of master but not the word form or radiant form which is inside all of us. can we run away from our mind ? the same way we can not run from our true master that is word or radiant form.physical form of master has no power.that is meant to talk to us , to convey message thats all.physical form has to end one day wether its desciple or master.so we have to search for the radiant form of master with in .the only way to reach it is meditiation and only meditiation.all other activities at rssb are means to meditiation.if we are doing meditiation we dont need means now.meditiation is real worship of soul and god.
we all are struggling souls.we all have shortcomings more or less.that is why we need teacher or some guide.we should not look at shortcomings of satsangis with surprise as they are also struggling .let us help each other and keep our eye to master inside with guidance from physical form of master.i hope you will help me some day when i need you .thank you .

[anjolie]

cynthia ....is seemed to be the most confused ...
1. why not a guru can take 3million karmas ..if ur are able to meditate on only single breathe for hours....
2. Like always a learner, some people will have high perception , and some dont have , it is pure dependent on individual way of thinking.
3. many people need guidence and some may not, the guidence by the guru through the intiation can be considered for all the souls and hearts who dont have proper idea for reunion of soul and god.
4. rssb is not a interference , it is a path which leads. if there are no body to say something , then how can dhogma got into world with out a publication. My intension is clear cookin some dish by reading a book is different , by learning that dish from a known persion or a cook.
5. i sincerly have a doubt , that cynthia how many paths u take to go to home and god, please be sure that u say right answer because this is purely your wish not somebody.
6. why really church is included in the title church of churchless
7. I sincierly obey every mind or heart is free to accept or practice any kind of religion. There is nothing in the world which has 100% positives.
8. Finally I say a religion or a practice or cult will be practiced by people if that could satisfy their mind or heart's thoughts or beliefs. It is after all their choice to saisty themselves.

[montu]

i might not be as awakened as some ppl say they r but i just want to say that no body forced u ppl to join rssb ur questions can be answered very easily but as a matter of fact we the followers of rssb r not told to defend or raise disputes with u all.its said little knowedge is dangerous dats wats happening with u ppl. instead of wasting ur time here u should try and search 4 reality.i am saying this b caz i my self felt the presence of god following this path though i never meditate . but i have seen ppl meditating and heard from them wat they see just like my own grand ma (who is not in this world any more)which in no way can be false as such ppl wont lie .so if u dont wanna follow it just leave it why the hell do u keep blabbering when u dont have complete knowledge .its just like a person in pre school askin questions of high school.which obviously will be answered only if u progress ur way on spiritual path.

[Toa]

Thanks montu,
Your intelligent, logical and well written essay has made a TRUE believer out of me again! I look forward to your next enlightening post!

[tao]

To "MONTU":

If, as you say in your own words, you "followers of rssb r not told to defend or raise disputes", then why are you here, and why are you disputing and defending RSSB ? You are obviously a self-contradicting hypocrite.

And montu, "instead of wasting ur time here u should" ... just go back to your troll hole where you came from. Your message abounds with stupid troll talk such as: "dats wats happening with u ppl", "b caz", "ppl", "u dont wanna", "u progress ur way", etc.

You also wrote: "though i never meditate". Well if that is so, then just who are you to be telling anything to the author of this web-blog site and other commenters, many of whom have extensive practice and decades of experience in Sant Mat meditation?

You also wrote: "have seen ppl meditating and heard from them wat they see ... which in no way can be false as such ppl wont lie". What people may say they experience subjectively has little or no value in terms of spiritual truth. It is merely heresay. And again, you and your sources are not substantial or credible for you to say that such people "wont lie". The spiritual and religious realm abounds with fabrications, projections, illusions, fantasies, supertstitions, and myths.

You also wrote: "so if u dont wanna follow it just leave it". Well in case you have not noticed, or perhaps you simply do not want to admit...that is exactly what many former followers of sant mat have done. However, you are no one to tell anyone anything about what they should or should not do spiritually.

You also wrote: "why the hell do u keep blabbering when u dont have complete knowledge". No, it is you who are "blabbering", and you who has no "complete knowledge". Everything that you have said is basically nonsense, and it shows that you understand nothing about sant amt meditation, or even real spirituality in general.

You also wrote: "its just like a person in pre school askin questions of high school which obviously will be answered only if u progress ur way on spiritual path". How would you know? You have already admitted that you have no knowledge or experience. You don't have even a clue about the spiritual knowledge or wisdom of those who whom you are speaking towards. You are just another typical stupid dumb troll who does not even know anything about what, or who, he is criticising. Go get initiated into sant mat, practice meditation for 20 years, and then come back and we might perhaps consider your remarks. Until then, you are just a typical inexperienced fool with a computer. Go back to troll-land where you will find more of your kind.

[Manjit]

Dear Montu (Suchi?),
Not really wanting to get into a pointless mud-slinging match, I still feel moved to respond to your post above.
You say 'a little knowledge is dangerous' & 'stop wasting yourr time search for reality' & 'you keep blabbering when you don't hhave complete knowledge' etc etc.
I find all these comments above to seemingly refermuch more pertinently to yourself than annyone else posting here. I'm not insulting you, but pointing out what seems an obvious fact. Think about it yourself.
You are on a blog written by someone with more knowledge & meditation experience in the very same path you follow, than you have even lived (judging from your posts over at Radhasoamistudies).
I think that gives him, and many others, as much right to be as critical or questioning of 'sant mat' as they like.
Brian has meditated the prescribed hours for 3 decades.
Perhaps you should listen more than you preach at such an inexperienced point of your journey? I say that as somebody who's been where you are myself.
Sincerely, Manjit

[Spence Tepper]

I liked Cynthia's post a great deal. At some point, especially with a personal search for God, for Spirituality, it seems that each of us must turn within. That means turning away from all of our conceptual boxes. It seems to me Cynthia saw in Sant Mat some of these boxes and naturally, as part of Her development, realized they had their limitations.

How much of that is Sant Mat and how much Cynthia's interpretation? It doesn't matter. She must be the final judge. If this step helps her to grow in her objectivity, and her subjectivity; in her ability to find real and permanent love and truth within herself, so much the better.

Some day she may see God in every cell, in every moment of this universe, in every Church, in every test tube, in the eyes of every child, even in the midst of horror.

Then anyone who inspires her, who helps her, in the way people were meant to do, to help each other, then they are good teachers. She doesn't expect them to be anything other than what they are, because she is receiving something divine in her interaction with them.

At that point her discrimination will be perfect, and yet entirely without boundary. If she falls in love with one, and they inspire her, perhaps she will understand why loving the Master for some is all that matters in this world. The more they give up to the universal spirit, the more they relinquish their boxes, what they see and what they project, the more they will find a divine love affair waiting for them.

Sant Mat a science? In some ways. Any means of searching for truth can be described as a science if we are asking, looking, thinking. But what if sharpening the saw, the knife to distinguish truth from falsehood takes us to a place without knives? Without distinctions? A Love Affair? Most certainly.

And when you realize that love and emotion and passion are part of the path, then how can it be called a science? Unless you understand that all science is an expression, too, of passion.

Spence

[benandante]

I am ignorant of this subject but wish to say something about this site, as some of you have referred to it and its author above.

It is easy to pick apart the teachings of another, but as someone who has been approached by others and had to somehow organize, disseminate and instruct what I knew without insisting upon my own conclusions, I can say that teaching is no easy task. Brian is a very wise teacher who has created a unique and amazing place of sharing and learning.

Brian shares intelligently, he shares earnestly and he is never repetitive or shallow. He reminds me of one of those fountains that's made of a vase and hidden water pump that looks like an endlessly overflowing vessel of water. But make no mistake: all the content is continually changing, informative and engaging. It requires thought and originality and dedication, and because it looks simple it belies its depth and copmplexity.

As to paths and boxes and such a teacher once told me great teachers are always eclipsed in understanding by their students. If students never outgrow their teacher, they are being kept as infants. I have experienced this and know the truth of it.

Another truth I was given by another wise soul was this: It is easy to tell if a path is correct by asking three questions:
Does it promote joy?
Does it promote self-development?
Does it glorify God/Creation/All That Is?
The answer may be yes to two of three questions. It may occasionally be that it is yes to all three, which is a happy and very fast moving place of development. But if you can only say yes to one question, you must reexamine why you remain in place. Usually moving on is neccessary. This has also been a truth for me many many times, from career to worship to relationships.

Whenever I hear someone trying to convince another of how incorrect their actions I wonder why they need to spend so much energy correcting what exists outside of themselves. I took the time to speak about the good this site has done and the deep respect I feel for Brian because I want to acknowledge how much All Three Questions have been answered yes by his thoughts and energy. I am responding to the cynical voice within myself that picks apart anything that I have not considered before.

Our paths are different. I have respect for all seekers, even those who hide in television and drugs and fear and do not know they are seeking anything yet. Maybe your truth tells you that anyone else's truth is a lie. Perhaps this is not the best place for you then, and I wish you well wherever you travel. But this is MY church in every sense of the word. We show respect for other people's truth, following the example Brian set. Please remember that, yes, Brian's truth is divine as well.

I have seen no hierarchy here, so perhaps you are unfamilliar with such egalitarian, loving, wise sharing. None of us has been told disagreement equates with stupidity, rather we exchange ideas and concepts. I am uninterested in where your beliefs place me on your scale of comparative enlightenment -- I will happily wear the badge of the preschooler if those of the university class treat others with so much disrespect and arrogance. I see the value of living apart from life in detatchment, but it saddens me that you cannot comprehend the great gift of living completely within each moment, emotion and connections and illusions and all. There is much more for me to learn from life before I decide to set myself on the margins of it where nothing changes or affects me anymore. I can only rejoice and marvel that a man with Brian's training and life experiences chooses to share with someone as wholly different as I am from him. He certainly has never spoken in a way that made me feel inferior to him in any way. Perhaps that was what caused him to follow a churchless path? He has never said this and yet it seems the single striking difference between he and those who I have read here who attack his journey apart from RSSB.

I apologise if my words have been crude or offensive, I mean no harm. Especially if my words offend Brian in some way. This is my house of learning and I have found great wisdom here. Namaste.

Jeanine NY

[Roger]

To Spence and Jeanine:

It's Monday morning, I have read your above comments. They both spoke volumes. What is important, is right there in a nutshell.

Jeanine stated, " I apologize if my words have been crude or offensive." I have read through your comment twice, I am searching for the words that are crude and offensive. Maybe, a third scan, and a discovery will be made.

[Sandeep]

Once a person fell into a manhole.A person came to help him out. He threw a rope and asked him to catch. Instead of catching the rope the man inside the manhole started asking him "Who are you?". He replied I am just like your friend and want to help you.He again asked him "why do you want to help me?".The other person asked him to catch the rope, he will answer all his questions once he comes out.He futher asked "from where did he get the rope?.He kept on asking more and more questions.As the other person felt that he was more intersted in asking questions than coming out, he left him there and moved ahead on his way.

[sapient]

Sandeep,
How do you know you are in a manhole. These are the beliefs you get when you follow a cult. Searching of real truth can also be compared with living and experimenting with all the joys of nature with a pure mind and heart. But no..these paths will keep on telling you, dont be happy ..you are in a manhole..only I can help you..and you believe them..It might be just your belief!

[Kenneth Gbezeh]

We are all free spirit beigns and must have the freedom to choose our own spiritual paths as it suits us.No one can judge other.God is what each individual thinks or perceivs it to be and it works for everyone.Do you have a master?Who knows you better than yourself?If you allow yourself to be protected by someone else higher self--god then you are still a slave within yourself.Be free and think freely but love yourself bigger than peoples concepts about God and then you are free as free soul otherwise be a slave forever.Do not believe in anything but yourself because you and the father are one.

[Mahesh]

Well, reading through all the blogs above lead me to find answers to all my questions about RSSB. I am a RSSB follower because of being born in family of followers (right from 1920s, when Jaimal Singh ji was there). I followed the path initially just as a "custom", as my parents and relative will do. And then since many of my relatives were "regular" hindus, I was even more confused as to what to path to follow, not to mention that there a God for everything in Hinduism (Wealth, Knowledge etc).

I have very simple line to say (which again is just how I felt and may not be true for all):

For me (as a person with scientific bent of mind) RSSB did answer lot of answers to questions I had about myself, world et al.

When I practiced the path, I saw some tangible benefits. Regarding the facts that why gurus are family mostly, guru will only give naam to selected ones...I also felt little uncomfortable, but then I am choosing to ignore these things in favor of benefits that I have experiecned to being on the path. I would say, i would take risk of agreeing with Sandeep on Manhole story, and not ask all "questions" at this time.

Anything in the world can never be perfect, (1 and 0, black and white)...that is why world is not heaven.

-Mahesh

[Saniyasi]

Whatever, you are writing, My dear friends, are the resultants of you deceiver mind, not of your soul, Love does not analyse the beloved one, it simply accepts the whatever it gets. Remember that today's indulging in thinking and analysing the things, should not let you to regret in your last moments. Rest is yours, decide yourself.

[tAo]

Saniyasi

Whatever you have written, is obviously the resultant of the foolish nonsense of your own mind, and "soul" is just a religious idea that you use to inflate your self-righteousness and hide your hypocrisy.

Only superstitious religious fools like yourself advise others not to analyse. Only fools abjure reason and the intellect.

And "the beloved" is different for each and every one who loves.

Only a fool without a real mind of his own accepts such nonsense religious dogma. Remember that indulging in thinking and analysing is the way to reason and understanding, and only religious illusions will cause you to regret in your last moments.

Your life is all entirely your own, so decide everything for yourself. Don't follow anyone else. No one is superior to anyone else, and God is just an idea in the mind of those who are afraid to think for themselves.

[tAo]

Saniyasi

Whatever you have written, is obviously the resultant of the foolish nonsense of your own mind, and "soul" is just another religious idea that people like you use to inflate your sense of self-righteousness and conceal your hypocrisy.

Only superstitious religious fools who believe in supernaturalism like yourself, advise others not to analyse. And only such fools abjure reason and the intellect.

Btw, "the beloved" is different for each and every one who loves another.

Only a fool without a real mind of his own accepts such nonsense religious dogma. Remember that indulging in thinking and analysing is the way to reason and understanding, and only religious illusions will cause you to regret in your last moments.

Your life is all entirely your own, so decide everything for yourself. Don't follow anyone else. No one is superior to anyone else, and God is just an idea in the mind of those who are afraid to think for themselves.

[Blasphemy]

As i was born in a rssb family growing up in it etc etc i question everything and i learn a lot from questions and making mistakes and i have concluded the most important thing

it follows
fuck the leaders and they god, follow your heart and your eyes will see

[maria]

Before I was initiated in this spiritual path, I had been having some kind of metaphysical attraction. I joined a group that practice theosophical teachings one member of the group is a satsangi together with his wife. From this couple I learned about RSSB little knowledge I have acquired and my eagerness to become spiritual enlightened, I began doing a kind of meditation which in the process I had experienced of being asked a question to choose between acquiring wealth of this world or spiritual englightenment which I chose the latter.
After initiation and reading a lot of books about the path, I believed am being led to the direction I want to be.
Being in the path I learned two things, Firstly, before I achieve the pinnacle of spiritualily I must do my duties as a student and the presence of the Master is there to guide and lead me in the right direction as there are lot of intricacies in the path. With Him who is highly evolved soul had the experienced of spirituality and walking the path with Him I am assured that I would not go astray in my journey. Secondly, I must at all times be on guard by the play of the mind which role is to prevent me from reaching my goal.
From reading your blogs and others too, I could sense that what you have been experiencing as well with others is just one of the phases how our mind works, that is, questioning every aspect of the teaching and other events within the RSSB. The advancement in the path is by attending to our duties as a student, that is, doing devotedly to our meditation. As a soul like our physical body we have individual differences that is why we have diffferent levels of achieving spirituality and the differences lies on number of karmas we acquired from living from one body to another body. What am pointing out is why do we have to attend to mundane things when we have a great thing to do?
Myself like other satsangis is also struggling to achieve that purpose which is to go back to our Father. What I heard and observed about RSSB is I think are allowed to happen for a purpose maybe as a testing ground for each and every one of us. I believed that any misgiving or lack of propriety of a disciple would be dealt with which could happen within or without. The things we see which are to our mind has not been attended to accordingly we dont know what is happening within the realm of spirituality, after all, the divine justice is just nothing is eluded or forgotten, it is written in book of life. I am deeply sorry for those who inspite of having been in the RSSB for many years would go out for simple reason that their mind explorations has not been satisfactory met. I believed otherwise, because the main objective of the path is to subdue the mind itself that is why we have to do our meditation diligently, that is the secret to success. it is only then one could understand what spirituality is. How can the mind understandthe state of infinity when mind itself is finite. How can the mind understand light when it had not experience light.
I know Mr. Brian is a very intelligent man but he uses it in such way that other satsangis are offended which they consider maybe unethical being a satsangi himself. When one has many questions which to his mind have not been resolved, I believed that one should stop practicing the path and get out, because no one can serve two masters at the same time.

[Brian]

maria, there's a lot to say about what you said. I'll try to be brief. I felt just like you did for over thirty years. But I came to realize that, as the saying goes, "I was the pot calling the kettle black." You're doing the same thing.

You are using your mind to believe that Sant Mat is the path that you should follow. You made a decision to sign on with RSSB; you've also decided that you should continue on the same path.

Nothing wrong with that. Except you feel superior to other people, even though the path is supposed to make you humble. You believe that somehow you're being guided by soul intuition, or God's grace, and that people who follow other paths are being deluded by their mind.

How do you know that you're not being deluded by your own mind? What evidence can you provide that your beliefs are correct, and those of others are wrong?

Once you believed in theosophy. Now you believe in Sant Mat. Tomorrow you may believe in something else. Once you didn't have a guru. Now you do. Tomorrow you may change again.

My questions to you are: What is the truth that doesn't change? What is the reality that doesn't need defending, like you did in your comment? What is the difference between you and a Christian, Muslim, or Jew who is convinced that he or she is on the right path, and those with other faiths are on the wrong path?

[Brian]

A P.S. to Maria. She also sent me an email, which she ended by saying that she hoped I'd find what I was looking for. I replied with this, responding to some things she said in her email message:

"Maria, I have found the thing I'm looking for. But thanks for hoping that I'll find it. I feel much more 'spiritual' now than before. Considerably more humble. I don't feel separate from other people, that I'm superior to them because I have a guru and know what truth is all about.

I like to write about those honest feelings. Other people then respond with their own honest feelings, like you did. This is good. Honesty and truth are close to each other.

You seem to believe that some honest feelings shouldn't be expressed, that they should be hidden, because other people might disagree with them. Well, you're free to believe that. I don't.

I guess I have sort of a scientific attitude toward spirituality and mysticism. I believe we should talk about our experiments with meditation, sharing what works and doesn't work. Like I said in a comment on your comment, I used to feel very much like you do. Now, I don't. That doesn't mean one of us is right, and the other is wrong. We're just different.
--Brian

[tAo]

To Maria:

My response to Maria' commments...

First, I should say that Brian has addressed most of the issues that Maria brought up. Issues that (imo) she has little clarity about and a heck of lot of unexamined presumptions and foregone conclusions about.

As many of the regular readers know, we have been down this road many times before. But it may be helpful to revisit it again, if only to give something to Maria to really think about. I seriously doubt that Maria will find such honest feedback elsewhere, and certainly not from the RSSB or from other satsangis (who are just as entrenched in the same forgone conclusions and RS dogma that she is).

So I do hope Maria will at least remain here long enough to read this (and not have prematurely scurried away like another typically self-righteous hit-and-run RS poster) and simply just be able to be open-mined enough to actually LISTEN and HEAR the import of my remarks (and Brians, etc) instead of presuming (as ahe already has done) to understand Sant Mat and where other folks are at, better than other folks do.

[And I am sorry for being so lengthy, but I thought it necessary to preface my remarks to Maria that follow, with the above clarification.]

So here are my remarks and reponses to Maria:

Maria, you made the following statements (within quotation marks). I will repond to each of them separately.

"After initiation and reading a lot of books about the path, I believed am being led to the direction I want to be."

--- Yes that is your current belief. However, it is merely an acquired assumuption (not a truth) that you need to be "led" in a particular "direction". You have been influenced into believing that supposedly you need to get somewhere and/or achieve something. But that is merely an idea that you have bought into. It is not necessarily true. You believe it only because you assume that others (so-called "masters") are wiser or more enlightened than you are. That is not true either, but you still believe it.

"I learned two things (...) I must do my duties as a student and the presence of the Master is there to guide and lead me in the right direction"

--- You assume that you are a "student", and that you supposedly need to follow (ie: be guided and led by) what you call a "Master". But then, you don't even know who YOU are. So how is it that you presume that you know that you supposedly need to follow someone else? - Because some person or some book told you that, thats why... and thats all you know. You don't really know who you are, or where you are going, or what you need. You simply believe something that you were told. But you don't actually know if that is true.

"With Him who is highly evolved soul had the experienced of spirituality and walking the path with Him I am assured that I would not go astray in my journey."

--- You merely assume that this person is a "highly evolved soul"... and you merely assume that you will "not go astray". You do not know, you merely only believe.

"I must at all times be on guard by the play of the mind which role is to prevent me from reaching my goal."

--- Now that is nothing more than an idea, a supposition, that you have bought into and are parroting. You don't know what "the mind" is, or that the mind is any sort of obstuction at all. And I doubt that you even know what your supposed "goal" really is.

"From reading your blogs (...) I could sense that what you have been experiencing as well with others is just one of the phases how our mind works, that is, questioning every aspect of the teaching and other events within the RSSB."

--- You are presumptiously asserting that Brian is somehow caught in the mind, and that his inquiry into truth is but the mind. But you are sorely mistaken, and have no actual insight into Brian at all. But you pretend as if you do. That shows that you have far less clarity, understanding, insight, knowledge, and wisdom than you think you do, and that you would have others believe.

"The advancement in the path is by attending to our duties as a student, that is, doing devotedly to our meditation."

--- Again, you act as if you know something that you don't... but in reality, its only just ideas that you are parroting.

"As a soul (...) we have individual differences that is why we have diffferent levels of achieving spirituality and the differences lies on number of karmas we acquired"

--- Again, these are nothing more than mere concepts and ideas that you believe in ("diffferent levels" and "karmas")... they are NOT proven facts or truth.

"What am pointing out is why do we have to attend to mundane things when we have a great thing to do?"

--- Who is "attending to mundane things" ? And what "great thing to do" ? These are also presumptions and mental speculations that are based in the duality of mind.

"Myself like other satsangis is also struggling to achieve that purpose which is to go back to our Father."

--- One, you are presuming that others are "struggling"; and two, you think and believe (and are again parroting) that there is a "purpose" which is "to go back to our Father". This is just more of the same dualistic conceptual RS dogma that you have been espousing all along.

"What I heard and observed about RSSB (...) are allowed to happen for a purpose maybe as a testing ground for each and every one of us."

--- Now thats an absurd justification for RS corruption. You are making yourself look pretty lame saying nonsense like this.

"I believed that any misgiving or lack of propriety of a disciple would be dealt with which could happen within or without."

--- Again, you merely BELIEVE. That just doesn't carry much if ant weight around these parts.

"The things we see which (...) has not been attended to accordingly we dont know what is happening within the realm of spirituality..."

--- You mean YOU "don't know what is happening within the realm of spirituality". Don't say "we". You need to understand that you do NOT speak for others.

"... after all, the divine justice is just nothing is eluded or forgotten, it is written in book of life."

--- Just another un-proven, un-substantiated assumption. Your inability to differentiate between mere beliefs and real facts is the crux of your presumptions and your lack of real insight, knowledge, and understanding.

"I am deeply sorry for those who inspite of having been in the RSSB for many years would go out for simple reason that their mind explorations has not been satisfactory met."

--- Your obvious condescending attitude reveals just how bereft of any real spiritual insight or wisdom you are. And furthermore, you are a hypocrite because YOU are clearly identified with the duality of mind.

"I believe otherwise, because the main objective of the path is to subdue the mind itself that is why we have to do our meditation diligently"

--- Again, you are making an assertion that is NOT based in your own direct experience and insight, but instead is simply more of your parroting of RS philosophy and dogma.

"it is only then one could understand what spirituality is."

--- You merely presume to "understand what spirituality is". Bt you obviously understand very little or nothing about real spirituality.

"How can the mind understand the state of infinity when mind itself is finite."

--- No one said that it could or needs to.

"How can the mind understand light when it had not experience light."

--- Its rather obvious that you have no understanding of this subject at all.

"I know Mr. Brian is a very intelligent man but he uses it in such way that other satsangis are offended which they consider maybe unethical being a satsangi himself."

--- If "other satsangis are offended" and they feel that the inquiry into what is truth (if anything), is "unethical"... then that is THEIR problem, not Brians or mine.

"When one has many questions which to his mind have not been resolved, I believe that one should stop practicing the path and get out, because no one can serve two masters at the same time."

--- I personally don't serve ANY "masters". And also, I doubt that your opinion about "the path" holds much weight here either.

You neophyte satsangis are all the same - you haven't got a damn clue as to what the hell you're talking about... and you are about as humble to the Great Mystery as is a dense doornail.

Oh and btw, please turn off that boring RS tape-recording, why don't you.

[Gaurav Arora]

I dont think that any initiator of RSSB needs to reply. Because in the initial stage in SantMat is the path of love & blind faith. Why I word use 'blind' here because you have lot of questions & lot of answers. Your whole life seems nothing to complete your answers & questions. But as you get an inner experience & then you relize that the SantMat is path of self realisation, then you haven't any answer & question. In initial stage of SantMat you don't need to realise a Master or Guru as a aspect of god. You just realise that Master is just like our friend or nothing but as you get your inner experience your, experience will give you all the answers more than aspectation.

Apart from this you should read the experience of Dr. Julian P Johnson in the Path of the Master. Here is the link

http://salmun.cwahi.net/nrm/hind/rssb/tpotm/tpotm.htm#04

Regards
Gaurav

[tAo]

ho hum... more empty blah blah blah from another proponent of blind faith.

Gaurav Arora,

I don't need no stinkin path of love & blind faith.

i don't "have lot of questions", and i don't need "lot of answers".

my whole life was certainly not "nothing", and i don't have any "answers & questions" to "complete".

i don't need to "get an inner experience".

i don't have any need to "relize that the SantMat is path of self realisation".

i don't have any "answer & question".

i am not in an "initial stage of SantMat".

i don't see "a Master or Guru as a aspect of god."

i don't care if you think "Master is just like our friend". he is not my friend.

i don't need to get any "inner experience".

i don't think that "experience will give you all the answers".

and i don't want or need to "read the experience of Dr. Julian P Johnson in the Path of the Master". i have already read it long ago.

so why don't you just go practice what you preach, and leave others to their own ways?

[Audrina]

About the egg diet its more specifically a full vegetarian diet. And we only have it because Baba Ji doesn't just give us animals to eat, he gives fruits and vegetables and many other things. We dont need to go around and take away other living organisms lives just to fulfill our hunger.And many of your statments are just plain stupid and i think a 12 year old could figure them out.

-Maybe if you stick to one religion you would not turn your back on it and you would learn to appreciate what you have

[tAo]

"About the egg diet its more specifically a full vegetarian diet."

-- i am not sure who you are talking to or about. just so you understand, i never said that eating eggs was vegetarian diet. and i am not sure if anyone else did either. i do eat eggs because i choose to eat eggs and because doing so is good for my over-all physical health and well being, which in turn is good for my spiritual well being too.

fyi, here is what i said about eggs in one of my previous comments:

"Nor does eating eggs or no eggs. All I can say to that is: Free your mind from such ridiculous beliefs and acquired conceptual limitations."

"we only have it because Baba Ji doesn't just give us animals to eat, he gives fruits and vegetables and many other things."

-- ok, but so what? thats your choice if you want to follow what someone else (like your "Baba Ji") tells you to do. i don't. i do what is good and right for me. i don't care what other people think or say. i don't take orders from any gurus or babajis. i think for myself and i live the way i want to.

"We dont need to go around and take away other living organisms lives just to fulfill our hunger."

-- but you do eat living organisms. you eat plants (fruits and vegetables, and they are living organisms. also, eggs are not actually living organisms. they will never hatch into chickens. and they will definitely rot on the grocery store shelf if they are not eaten. so you really don't know what you are talking about. you are just blindly following what somebody else told you.

"And many of your statments are just plain stupid and i think a 12 year old could figure them out."

-- whose statements are stupid? who are you referring to?

"Maybe if you stick to one religion you would not turn your back on it and you would learn to appreciate what you have"

-- well i guess you are referring to Brian, or else perhaps Cynthia's message that Brian posted. either way, what religion or religions are you talking about? and "appreciate" what? you seem sort of confused. and who and what are you referring to? you probably won't answer, because you are likely just another trollish hit-and-run poster. its unlikely that you came here for any dialog.

[Roger]

tAo,

Could you please simply find one religion, and stick to it.

Audrina,

What is the minimum age at which statements become just "plain" stupid? Surely, this occurs long before the age of twelve.

I'm bored and need some answers.
Thanks Roger

[tAo]

what are you talking about roger? i don't even have one damn religion, much less several religions. and i don't want even "one religion" either. so why should i stick to one? i don't want ANY damn religion at all, thank you. religion can "stick" it, imo.

and as for those answers that you need... well i rather doubt that audrina has any. i suggest you go consult with your local Texas chapter of the Bandidos MC. i'm quite sure they've got some kick-ass answers for ya.

[tAo]

and roger, be sure to take a scantily clad chick with you that knows 'how to hold a beer'.

[Roger]

tAo,

LOL......this scantily clad chick providing a few kick-ass answers shall satisfy my needs. Oh, she can hand me the beer too. Thanks Roger