How does Jesus save?

We often hear that “Jesus saves.” My question is, “How?” What is the exact mechanism by which Jesus saves souls? How did Jesus’ actions here on earth fit into the cosmic order of things? I’ve never heard compelling answers to these questions.

I’m not just picking on Christianity here. Virtually every religion or spiritual path is equally vague on “how’s.” For example, with Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), the organization that I’ve been associated with for a long time, a central tenet is that the guru connects the soul of the disciple with spirit, a.k.a. shabd or sound current.

But how? Another central tenet of RSSB is that the soul is a drop of the spiritual ocean. It is of the same essence. Is now, always was, always will be. So how can the soul be connected to spirit when the gurus say that the soul is spirit? Explanations that I’ve read in the RSSB books are, like Biblical passages concerning how Jesus saves, vague and unconvincing.

A friend of mind, Bill Long, has a Divinity master’s degree and a Ph.D. in the history of early Christianity. He told me once that when he was young he used to drive his pastors crazy with his questions, which were along these lines:

So, Jesus died for our sins. Did he have to die on the cross? What if he had died just after being born? Or by stumbling and falling off a cliff? Would mankind still have been saved by this sort of death?

Or was it the shedding of Jesus’ blood that saves? If so, how much blood was necessary? A pint? A quart? What about just a drop? Could Jesus have simply pricked his finger and gotten the same salvation results?

And so on. When Bill talked like this I was struck by how much sense he was making, and how infrequently I’ve heard questions like these raised by Christians. Or, indeed, anybody. What kind of a cosmos is ruled by a God who demands that his Son has to die on a cross in atonement for the sins of humanity? Excuse me, but this is just freaking weird.

If religion or spirituality has any value, it has got to be real. At least, that’s my opinion. I realize that many people embrace a religious belief because it is comforting. Beliefs don’t have to make sense; they just have to be believable.

Jesus saves. The guru connects souls with spirit. Each of these salvationary statements is wonderfully reassuring if you consider that you’re one of the people being saved or connected. Sometimes I wish that I was still able to believe in the absence of evidence like I used to be able to do.

As I wrote in my previous post, quoting Alan Watts, agnostics tend to be more anxious than believers. I certainly worry more about what’s going to happen to me (if there still will be a “me”) after death than I did during my faithful days.

However, as the saying goes, you can’t go back again. I’ve entered a psychological place where a cogent answer to “How?” has to be provided before I can even tentatively accept a theological or mystical proposition.

It’s possible to have faith without having a good idea of how. But this is a faith in mystery and the unknown, not a “faith” (actually, a belief) in an illogical or incomplete metaphysics.

Give me hows or give me mystery. For the moment, I’m embracing mystery.

Comments

[Steve Schultz]

Brian,

Greetings once again! Even though I haven't corresponded recently, I have been a 'religious' reader of Church of the Churchless. I can always count on a fresh perspective or at least something to ponder.

Your current posting (How Does Jesus Save?) raised some questions that, since I'm a Christian (but no theologian or even mildly evangelical) believe I can answer. I remember positing questions like your friend Bill Long's when I went to parochial school in an effort to trip up my teachers. From the outside, it may seem those questions are, besides being somewhat amusing, valid. Within the faith however, I doubt those particular questions would actually be raised. But even if they were, they can be answered. If you don't mind, I'd like to give it a shot.

Salvation (as far as my understanding of the Christian faith holds) is the result of Jesus' substitutionary death and subsequent defeat of evil by His resurrection. He, being sinless, took on our sins (everyone's, not just those who claim Him as their savior) and, in God's book, that wiped the slate clean - once and for all. So, if Jesus died right after birth or fell off a cliff or was run over by a chariot, that would not meet the sacrificial requirement (again - this is my personal understanding). Jesus knowingly and willingly took our sins on Himself and became the Sacrificial Lamb. The way I see it, if Jesus had a nosebleed or shed blood as the result of an accidental embedded fish hook - no matter what amount - it wouldn't have been the proper circumstances to fulfill God's requirement.

God gave mankind the Noahide laws to Noah. Later, He gave more specific laws to Moses. God, under the Law, required mankind to be perfect. But, because of our tainted nature (a result of the Fall), we could never meet those requirements. God, in the human form of Jesus, fulfilled the Law's requirements of perfection by living a sinless life. His death restored the relationship between God and humankind.

What's the mechanism for salvation? We're not dealing with physical, mechanical principles here but with metaphysical, spiritual and legal matters. These things can be pondered, questioned and discussed but they can't be quantified or reduced to grams or ergs. They are two different realms.

How many units of love do you hold/exchange for/with your wife? What is the mechanism for (and I'll try to choose my words carefully - I don't want this conversation to turn risqué) for the expression of your love? How many spiritual units of measurement do you generate or transform when you are conversing with your guru?

I appreciate your allowing me to express my viewpoint on the matter. The diatribe above is not an effort to 'pull you into the fold' but to illustrate the flow of salvation as this Christian sees it. I do not have a complete understanding of the faith and doubt I ever will this side of heaven (and even then, being finite, I seriously wonder if I'll be able to fully appreciate and understand God - perhaps, given infinite time...). Even within the faith, there's plenty of Mystery.

All the best,

Steve Schultz

[Steve Schultz]

Brian,

With all that talk about different realms, in hindsight, I realized there is something quantifiable about faith. Knowing and understanding and being able to skillfully explain the faith isn't enough. If, when I encounter fellow human suffering or misfortune, I do nothing to help, the value and meaning of my faith is exactly zero.

May we all live meaningful lives,

Steve Schultz

[Iamblichus]

Brian,

I suggest reading Eric Perl's 1992 Yale dissertation on Methexis in Maximus the Confessor (I got a copy online through a dissertation wholesaler). You might find it especially interesting as Mr. Perl uses the neoplatonism of Plotinus, Proclus, Gregory of Nyssa, Dionysius, and Maximus the Confessor to develop a Christological metaphysis of theosis. It is one of the more reasoned articulations of Christianity that I've ever been exposed to. One ought also read "Theurgy and the Soul: The Neoplatonism of Iamblichus" by Gregory Shaw for a reasoned defense of theurgy (religious ritual) and a correction to the intellectualism of the undescended Plotinian soul.

[Ben]

"For example, with Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), the organization that I’ve been associated with for a long time, a central tenet is that the guru connects the soul of the disciple with spirit, a.k.a. shabd or sound current.But how?"

Hi Brian,

Interestingly, Baba Ji downplayed Initiation substantially, saying that all that initiation is, is being given instructions on how to listen to the Sound that is in all of us.

I have no idea, but I enjoyed the Master's approach to this point.

[Jarek]

Hi,

I realize this post is almost 3 years old and no one may ever seen this, but this is the first website to pop up when I did a Google search for: How does Jesus save?

I think it's kind of unfortunate that the first website that pops up is by someone who doesn't know/understand Christ, the very person who loves them so much He died on a cross so we would not have to suffer our just fate.

It's simple how Jesus saves: humans have broken their relationship with God through sin. Sin is anything that's contrary to God's nature and commandments for our life.

Jesus died for us, and since he was sinless, his death and resurrection took us humans off the hook, so long as we accept his sacrifice, ask for forgiveness, and pledge to commit your life to Him, in order to allow Him to work through you and in turn bring forth your destiny.

God does not want even a single person to perish. That is how much He loves us, that He sent his son to die for us, even though society laughs at Christ, hates Christ for who He is (righteous, holy, perfect, kind, loving, in a sense, everything that humans are not while they are still in their natural, sinful nature.)

If you truly begin to understand the Word of God, (which you can't fully understand without the Holy Spirit, the Word needs to be spiritually discerned), you see how every command of God is for our good.

He tells us not to hold anger against people, to forgive, to love others, etc., and science is now catching up, showing how our thought life (anger, unforgiveness, etc.) has an undeniable link to our health and well being. God has set those commandments in place for our good, yet we do not listen, because it's all about us.

We are truly and utterly fallen, we hate what is good, spit on those who do right, and love what is evil. The worst part, we don't think so. We think we are fine, everything is cool, this Jesus stuff can't be real. I'm just fine the way I am. That is exactly what Satan wants you to believe.

God's standard and the world's standard bear absolutely no resemblance, always remember that. Everyone will have to stand one day before God, and with your words you will be judged. Without a changed heart, that only comes with accepting Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit on our heart, we will not be able to stand before a perfect God with anything but shame and fear.

In this reality, Christ still came and died so that we (who reject God with our lives, break every one of his commandments) could live in His resurrection. When He died and rose, he paid the price for our sin, once and for all. Now, we do not have to die (in the spiritual sense, our souls will go to heaven, and not hell, which was not prepared for us humans but for Satan and his angels) because of our sins.

All we have to do is believe in what He did and our turn our lives fully to Him, and that's only fair. Some will say that it's not fair, that I should not die just because I rejected Christ.

I tell you it is just, Christ died, that was the worst atrocity in human history. He willingly died for us, so if we reject his sacrifice by our words or by our deeds, we deserve exactly what we will get: eternal separation from God.

If this is you, if you have been convicted by the Holy Spirit while reading this, good and praise God. This is step one: conviction.

If you want to have eternal life by the sacrifice of Christ, I ask you to pray the following with your heart (just saying it doesn't do it, it must come from the heart so that you can undergo the radical transformation and breaking free from sin that salvation brings):

Dear Jesus, I understand that I am a sinner, very much like everyone else who doesn't know you, and I am on the wide and easy path to destruction. As a sinner, I understand that the price of sin is death. Lord I thank you for dying in my place, what an amazing love that You have shown.

I accept what You did on the cross, and I joyfully accept your free gift of everlasting life through faith in You Jesus and I commit my life, every part of it, to you. Lord, please send me your Holy Spirit so that you can turn my heart of stone into a heart of flesh, ready to do your will.

Thank you Jesus.

If you prayed that prayer, there is a legion of angels in heaven singing God's praises, and you will be saved. Please buy a Bible, read it every day, and find a Bible believing church to gather and makes friends with other believers.

You are about to embark on a journey that will leave you completely unchanged. If you find yourself turning back to sin, please ask the Holy Spirit to change your heart and make you dead to sin. Jesus did not die so that we could continue sinning, He died so to defeat sin. Please remember this important fact.

God bless all of you. I thank God for leading you here.

[helen]

jarek states:

*It's simple how Jesus saves: humans have broken their relationship with God through sin. Sin is anything that's contrary to God's nature and commandments for our life.*

Wow. As simple as that eh? And which commandments are you discussing? There are 3 versions of the 10 commandements in the bible alone. Also, as a shellfish eater and mixed-fibre wearing miscreant, can I have my stoning now?

*Jesus died for us*

I never asked him to.

*since he was sinless, his death and resurrection took us humans off the hook,*

I wouldn't ask anyone to die for me. it's obscene to think of such a thing. And why does God need a blood sacrifice anyway? What kind of blood-thirsty God is this and why should I worship a god who needs such a method of pacification? If this god of your was real I would take pleasure in denying him his ounce of flesh because I simply cannot be threatened into loving anything. it just doesn't work.

*so long as we accept his sacrifice, ask for forgiveness, and pledge to commit your life to Him,*

Jesus sacrifice is therefore conditional. I must love him or burn.

*We are truly and utterly fallen, we hate what is good, spit on those who do right, and love what is evil.*

Please speak for yourself. I know of nothing crueller than terrifying small children with tales of roasting in an everlasting torment after they die. Although i also know of chrtistians who pour chilli peppers into little kids eyes to "exorcise" the devil.

*God's standard and the world's standard bear absolutely no resemblance, always remember that*

Absolutely: I would never have put David's sone by Bathseba to death for the sins of his father, or encouraged Abraham to kill Isaac as a test, or allowed women to be raped to spare the life of others (read Lot and the Levite). Or whipped the moneychangers in the temple.

*I tell you it is just, Christ died, that was the worst atrocity in human history.*

Capital punishment is bad. But the holocaust surely has to be much worst, the troubles in Darfur and Rwanda. How about watching a woman with a congenital disability suffer pain for 40 odd years? There's no way that Jesus suffered as much as some people have.

*If you prayed that prayer, there is a legion of angels in heaven singing God's praises,*

yes, I can hear them now, singing the praises of the invisible pink unicorn and the Flying Spaghetti Monster with all the little goblins as backing singers.

*You are about to embark on a journey that will leave you completely unchanged*

I'm wondering if you made a typo or a freudian slip here: surely you should be claiming that turning to Jesus will leave us chanegd for the better?

[Adam]

Helen,
thank you for your post. You saved me, and I am sure others, some work.

[Brian]

Jarek, you're a true believer. You believe in the truth of Christianity, just as Muslims believe in Islam. There's no difference between fundamentalists of any kind. All of you are immune to reason, evidence, and facts.

Devout Muslims believe that Allah awaits them in paradise. Fervent Christians believe that Jesus will take them to heaven. Beliefs are just that: beliefs. All your talk about Jesus reveals that you don't have one shred of proof that you're right, and the Muslims are wrong.

I'm into reality, as much as possible. If there's a God, I'm pretty darn sure that this being would prefer that we know the creation as it is, not as how we erroneously believe it to be.

That's why I consider myself to be a more spiritual person than you, or any other devotee of their own personal ideas.

[Adam]

Brian,
I agree with your last comment until the last sentence. I would have written that you are a more "intelligent" person than Jarek, not more "spiritual." This is because spirit, if it exists, is probably something like "essential nature," unvarnished by stupidity.

[Jarek]

Helen,

Thanks for catching that typo...I definitely meant to say it will leave us completely changed :)

I am a changed man today. And so are others who've truly allowed Christ to work. Addictions have been broken in Christ's name, unforgiveness has turned into forgiveness in His name, there are countless stories of his work.

[I understand that some have unfortunately chosen to do other things in His name that go against His word and life (ex: Inquisition), but that was not from Christ. Anything that goes against what Christ said and did is easily spotted as not from Christ.]

As to all the things said above regarding what I said, I came across a passage that may help explain what is going on in this message board, take a look, 1 Cor. 1: 18-25:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 2but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

I hope that everyone on this post is blessed by those words, and help understand maybe why what I say sounds like crazy talk to someone who doesn't want to believe the truth.

I know this is the truth because Christ is in my heart, and I'm completely changed as a result. I live knowing that death isn't the end, and that I'm going to a far better place than where I am now. That is true freedom. I pray that all of you may come to know it before it's too late.

Another stumbling block for you may be that Jesus set a high standard. Where the law said, do not murder, Jesus said do not have anger at your brother, because you have committed murder in your heart. It's a very high standard, that may scaring you from the truth.

As Christians, we don't go at it alone, but we receive a new nature and the Holy Spirit. We aren't perfect, we still have free will and slip, but the ones truly living for Christ will be different in that they will not practice sin routinely. The things of this world will start to be exposed for what they are: a trap set by the fallen one, Satan.

No one said it was going to be easy, and the fact that I'm sort of mocked for my beliefs is actually reassuring, it's a pleasure to suffer persecution for the cross. But I would much rather you come to know the truth, like Saul did on the road to Damascus.

What a powerful testimony that is, one of the biggest persecutors of Christ becomes one of his greatest followers. I hope that for every one of you. This is what is at stake:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

[Roger]

Does One know or believe that God stated,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Would Christ make such a statement? If yes, does One know or believe that?

Jarek, with the love that is in your heart, would you make such a statement? If yes, do you believe or know that to be true?

[Jarek]

Hi Roger,

I should have given a bit more context there, I apologize for that. To answer your question upfront, yes, Christ would make such a statement, and it would be in love.

It's all over the word of God, that the "wisdom" of the world is foolishness. If you build your foundation without God, your foundation may contain some truth, 2+2=4 either way, but in the end your knowledge will be destroyed when you realize there is a God and your foundation was lacking the most important part!

Your entire house of "wisdom" will collapse, because you come to find out you missed the most important thing ever, God being involved in every aspect of creation, and God desiring to be in a relationship with you and therefore in every part of your life, blessing you, His precious creation.

(Proverbs 3:5-8) – “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.”

That is what the Lord is talking about, being wise in your own eyes with fancy arguments trying to prove the impossible, that there is no God, that He can't exist, that He wouldn't eternally separate Himself from you (which He does not, but we as individuals do, when we chose to reject Him here on this Earth...we reap what we sow...that is one of the greatest parts of the word of God, it asks us to love each other and treat each other as we would like to be treated...I think we can all agree this world would be a better place).

There are plenty of intelligent people who believe and embrace the gospel...doctors, engineers, analysts, etc. There are also plenty of intelligent people who reject the gospel...doctors, engineers, analysts, etc.

This passage is referring to the wisdom which is no wisdom at all, those who have rationalized or thought themselves to a point where God does no exist, and have seemingly proved it with some sort of argument.

The world looks at them as wise. God looks at it as foolishness, because He has made himself evident in creation.

Just take a look out a window, and you can see his signature on creation. You can see his signature in the mirror, you were created in His likeness, you are an amazing and complex creature who couldn't possible have come from nothing. The notion that you are an accident is the greatest lie ever told! God loves you beyond words, and he created you with talents and unique abilities for His kingdom...you were created to fit into a body of believers...you may be the hand, I may be the foot, someone else may be the neck, etc...we are all blessed differently but fit into this body perfectly. That is why you are gifted the way you are gifted, you may not know that but it's an amazing truth...you aren't a random collection of something that came from nothing. You have value Roger, tons of it in God's eyes. Let me get back on topic...

That is the wisdom of the wise, which God will destroy when that person comes to understand that there is a God, and that He loved you so much, he sent Jesus to die in your place so that you would not have to die, if you just accept what He did.

Without question, many people can't accept this simple truth, and will reject Christ. Roger, don't let that be you. Don't let your own wisdom prevent you from seeing the truth before it's too late.

If you seek God will all your heart and soul, you will find Him. I did, and now I live in peace knowing that when I die, I can stand before a perfect God. I want you to be able to echo those sentiments some day, and God does even more.

If you can't yet, the beauty of it is that you still have time! As long as you have breath in your body, you can investigate the things of the Jesus, as see for yourself that it is the most simple, loving truth there is.

God doesn't want you to be separate from Him, right now you are making that decision for yourself. And I promise you, what you reap is what you sow for eternity. Sow on a foundation that is eternal, on good ground, not on the temporal. God bless you Roger, you aren't as far away from the truth as you think friend :)

Here's a little story I found online that I liked, maybe it will help illustrate what I'm talking about...enjoy.

One fine day four people were flying in a small, four-passenger plane: a pilot, a minister, and two teenagers, one of whom had just won an award for being the “Smartest Teenager in the World.”

As they were flying along, the pilot turned to the three passengers and said, “I’ve got some bad news, and I’ve got some worse news. The bad news is, we’re out of gas. The plane’s going down and we’re gonna crash. The worse news is, I only have three parachutes on board.

This meant, of course, that someone would have to go down with the plane.

The pilot continued. “I have a wife and three children at home. I have many responsibilities. I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to take one of the parachutes.”

With that, he grabbed one of the chutes and jumped out of the plane. The Smartest Teenager in the World was next to speak. “I’m the Smartest Teenager in the World,” he said. “I might be the one who comes up with a cure for cancer or AIDS or solves the world’s economic problems. Everyone is counting on me!”

The Smartest Teenager in the World grabbed the second parachute and jumped.

The minister then spoke up and said, “Son, you take the last parachute. I’ve made my peace with God, and I’m willing to go down with the plane. Now take the last parachute and go.”

“Relax, reverend,” said the other teenager. “The Smartest Teenager in the World just jumped out of the plane with my backpack.”

[Adam]

Jarek,

I am happy for you that you have found peace and love and connection in your life. But do you think this really has to do with Jesus? Of course you do.

But COME ON!!!!!! I mean these feelings of peace you have found are FEELINGS. I am glad you have them, but they do NOT confirm anything about Jesus that you might have read, been taught, or imagined. I am sorry but that is the plain ad simple truth of the matter.

[tAo]

Way to go Roger... you're sounding more like a seasoned Churchless rebel every day now! I'm might proud of you. If you keep it up, I might just be able to take another vacation. I'd like to maybe go do some bikini-babe watching and sunset surfing with Brian in Hawaii.

Jarek,
Please spare us all that insipid Christian rhetoric. This is not a Christin site dude. Nobody here is interested in that same ole same old. So you believe in Jesus. So what. Why don't you just keep it at that? We ain't too fond of preachers here. We tar & feather and then burn their asses if they get too pushy with their religion. So get a clue. This Jesus shit is a dead issue. Now if you want to talk about Christian mysticism or SantMat, maybe we can accomodate you a tad. Catch my drift?

[tAo]

Way to go Roger... you're sounding more like a seasoned Churchless rebel every day now! I'm might proud of you. If you keep it up, I might just be able to take another vacation. I'd like to maybe go do some bikini-babe watching and sunset surfing with Brian in Hawaii.

Jarek,
Please spare us all that insipid Christian rhetoric. This is not a Christin site dude. Nobody here is interested in that same ole same old. So you believe in Jesus. So what. Why don't you just keep it at that? We ain't too fond of preachers here. We tar & feather and then burn their asses if they get too pushy with their religion. So get a clue. This Jesus shit is a dead issue. Now if you want to talk about Christian mysticism or SantMat, maybe we can accomodate you a tad. Catch my drift?

[Jarek]

tAo,

Understood. I have to note though, for the sake of those running and participating on this sate, for a post that's titled, How Does Jesus Save?, my defending Jesus has been censored and/or written off as non-sense.

This is constructive criticism, I don't say this with any malice: I don't feel that there's much of a chance for actual dialog or an exchange of ideas, because everything that defends Jesus of Nazareth as Christ is dismissed, at least in my limited experience with this site.

Just something to keep in mind, I was initially excited about the opportunity to talk about and share my experiences with Christ with non-believers, but now I leave feeling disappointed and sort of set up by this post titled, "How Does Jesus Save?" .

With that, I will respect your wishes and I won't trouble you any further. Thanks.

[tucson]

Jarek,

To help clarify, here is the introduction (to the introduction) to this site:

*************
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless

If you are spiritual but not religious,
If you don't belong to an organized faith but sometimes wish you did,
Or if you do belong but sometimes wish you didn't,
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless.

If you are tired of dogma that divides rather than unites,
That demands blind faith rather than open-eyed investigation,
That proclaims "You'll see when you believe"
Instead of "You'll believe when you see,"
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless.
****************

So,when you say.. "everything that defends Jesus of Nazareth as Christ is dismissed, at least in my limited experience with this site.".. you should expect that here. You might be asked to prove Jesus was the son of God or that he even existed in the first place. You might be asked to prove the existence of God or heaven or salvation or the existence of an eternal soul that needs to be saved. Can you prove any of those things? I know you can't. It comes down to whether you believe it or not. Faith.

There are all sorts of personalities here and some will have no patience with Christian dogma or any other sort of dogma for that matter. They've been there and done that. If you want readers who "belly-up" and blindly accept your religious proclamations, you won't have much luck on this site.

[Roger]

Jarek,

Thanks for your reply and the story.

The story made me think a little. The backpack probably looks much like a parachute pack. The Smartest teenager grabbed the backpack, thinking, it had a parachute inside.

A truely knowledgeable person (TKP), involved with parachuting, would want to know all the fundamentals of parachuting. The proper packing and setup of a parachute. How to examine a parachute for any defects, and how to correctly repair such. This TKP would carefully study the risks involved in parachuting and have planned a backup emergency plan. The TKP would continue exploring ways to safely and properly engage in the act of parachuting. Direct communication with someone that is well versed in parachuting would be one avenue. This TKP doesn't need the 'Smartest' title. The TKP relies on what he/she has within, then, just goes on and parachutes again and again.

I'm guessing, the 'Smartest' teenage, relies only on the superficial. The outside appearance of the pack was all that mattered. That person might want to try looking within and throw away the 'Smartest' title.

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Jarek,

On the chance that you might yet bother to come back to this site (to see the reactions to your last missive, etc.), I commend to your attention the 2008 publication of Bart D. Ehrman's _God's Problem: how the Bible fails to answer our most important question - why we suffer_. (I further commend, thereafter, some further exploration of other of Ehrman's recent publications.) Ehrman has been an evangelical Christian. He would know where you presently stand in your beliefs.

I also commend Ehrman's recent work(s) to any others who might wish to expend the effort to actually inform themselves factually on the topic of Christianity.

Robert Paul Howard

[rob]

ok there is a little more to it than this but I will give you the basic's..heaven is a holy place no sin or evil can enter, so god made himself a human,(jesus) linking a god to a man just as your linked to your mom or dad. he lived without sinning. so when he died he got to go to heaven so in a since flesh got to go to heaven so since your the same flesh as jesus you can follow his path and get to heaven.that a basic on how he saves.hope it helps

[Andrew]

I am in so much anguish over this topic, i don't think anyone here understands.

[Aereopagus]

Church of the Churchless - as I peruse your posings - I see that in every way you are inquisitive, in some ways possess impressive intelligence, and are very religious - for you appear to proclaim faith in a mystical and unknown God, or Spirit, or Force.

But what you claim to be unknown and muse over - even worshipping him in your round-about manner - this I proclaim to you:

God, who made the world and everything in it, is Lord of heaven and earth - and does not live in temples made by human hands. He does not need anything we can supply by working for Him, since it is he himself who gives life and breath and everything else to each of us. From a common ancestor (or ancient primate, or primordial soup) he created all races of people to populate the whole earth. His hand and breath is in all your doing.

He did this so that you would look for him and perhaps find Him as you grope about in the dark. Yet God is actually not far from any one of us - for 'in him we live and move and have our being', and even as some of your own ancient Greek poets have said, "We too are his offspring.'

And since we are God's children, we should not suppose that his nature is unknowable or anything like an image of gold or silver or stone, shaped by human art and skill.

God has overlooked the times when people did not know him, but now he commands all of them everywhere to cease their oblivious and evil ways. For he has fixed a day in which you will meet Him - when your being will remain as a record of this short life. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death!

[Paul]

Hines - I see you've given this a lot of thought - for a long time.

I'm not entirely sure what the answer is - but I hope to spend my life trying to figure it out. Here's my current answer:

First, you have to forget everything about insitutional religion and tradition; i.e. dump out the junk drawer.

Next, look up the definition of Jesus' name. That's it.

Then, study up on what he said, and start putting the valid elements back in the junk drawer - maybe in order, though.

God is a Spirit - to whose name you whisper praise from cradle to grave - with every breath - even in your most rebellious times of disclipline - but with more intent after re-birth. He is the Breath of Life.

[Onesimus]

I believe it's called 'Soteriology' - the study of salvation. I'm not a theologian, but I believe there are 4 general theories:

- Perfect Sacrifice
- Christus Victor
- Substitutionary Death
- and Exemplar (for us to crucify our selfish desires, and consider the big picture)

It might actually be called Christology, though - since I don't know what I'm talking about yet.

In it's true form it's natural - not magic.

[wayne]

its like in life a lot of people dont believe something unless they experience something themselves .i never believed in jesus but i tried a church where people are born again christians . i had a lot of problems and at the end of the service the guy doing the talk said if you cant take your life anymore and want jesus in your life put your hand up and at that point i even though i had never believed i just felt like i couldnt take my life anymore and a strong feeling to put my hand up and i did. things didnt change straight away but i just knew what i was doing was right and in the months that passed i experieced things which convinced me about jesus and my life began to change for the better and those questions you had which i had didnt matter because it had been proved to me he did exist