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July 18, 2005

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Hi all,

Before deciding on a path, each individual has complete right to test the various options available to him. You all already know of the various paths that exist today. And yes, almost all claim to be the real path!

So why not go for yourself and check? Explore the options available to you and then try going through the Radha Soami teachings. You'll come to know the difference because truth would just shine bright.

But with an open mind give a thought to yourself.... "Do you think the people who are emitting such disrespect for a philosophy would be anywhere even near to the right path? Do you think the persons who are full of hatred and so short tempered be anywhere close to God?"

Mohnish said: "Do you think the people who are emitting such disrespect for a philosophy would be anywhere even near to the right path? Do you think the persons who are full of hatred and so short tempered be anywhere close to God?"

--I think the assumption is being made here that someone who is close to God (as if it were possible not to be) would somehow exhibit exemplary behavior or that a definition of that behavior in the context in which it occured could even be determined. Who's to know what is good or bad in God's eyes unless you establish that in a conceptual, and therefore relative, value system? If one accepts that God is Absolute, any relativity would not apply.

Hence, the many stories of so-called "realized" persons, gurus, etc. behaving in bizarre ways according to conventional standards of behavior.

You can't pin Reality down.

Hi all,
Tuscon you are right. It is true that the so-called realized persons etc behave in bizarre ways according to conventional standards of behavior. The concept of good, bad, morality etc is indicative of duality. God is beyond duality. He is reality beyond the comprehension of our limited intellect and mind.

I have met the present Master a number of times as a seeker. To me he came across as a human being nothing great at all. But u cannot tell this to the satsangi"s. They will cry for your blood. If you are desperate for God, the path becomes irrelevant. It is not the Guru, but you who have to work. It is we who have to leave the crutches of the RSSB and learn to walk independently.

We have to remove a lot of baggage we are carrying (concepts, illusions , beliefs) and unlearn a lot of things. Enlightenment is independent of lot of things told in satsangh. Sat sangh is association with truth. If you are focused on truth , it will lead u to the end.

Very nice comment Minnie. Glad that you've found and have joined in our discission group. You have brought some fresh air.


Tao,
I find your comments very rational . Can you throw some light on inititation and does it alter one's life in any way ??

Mohnish, I can only speak for myself, but I'm certainly not full of hatred or short-tempered in regard to Sant Mat/RSSB.

Those who sound that way (which may be me at times, from your point of view) are simply expressing themselves in a fashion that is more honest and open than you're used to.

I'm curious: what is there in the RSSB/Sant Mat teachings that would convince a skeptic that this path alone, out of so many religions in the world, is true?

You seem to imply that the truth is so obvious, anyone should be able to see it. What is "it"?

Lohan,

Thanks for your appreciation... but I am not sure what exactl you want to know about "initiation"? And do you mean RS initiation in particular?

Nevertheless, you have asked: "Can you throw some light on inititation and does it alter one's life in any way ??"

Initiation in RS is more or less a superficial formality. It is generally not given personally and directly by the guru, but instead by someone else (another disciple) who is apppointed by the guru to conduct the formality of the initiation event.

The initiation event is a simple matter of the prospective disciple being told the 'secret' five word mantra, and instructed about the vows and also the specific procedure that is to be employed in the meditation practice.

I don't know what else to tell you other than that this RS type of so-called "initiation" is really just a very preliminary and much more exoteric (not esoteric) type of initiation ritual for beginners.

This RS initiation is not the higher level of true inner mystical initiation that is the actual realization of awakened consciousness. And remember that these are mere words, which at best are only pointing at something which can only be known and understood by direct experience alone.


For those who were RSSB satsangi's but have strayed from the path -- okay I guess you do not meditate -- but do you still have a vegetarian diet and avoid alcohol etc. Just out of interest

Jay,

I am one who has strayed from the path as you put it. It now seems that being on the path would be straying.

Diet, meditation and intoxicants are irrelevant to 'spiritual' understanding.

Reality requires no particular diet or avoidance of any substance. Reality is present whether you are dining on raw mutton and pinot noir or brown rice and wheat grass juice.

If there is a liking for meditation, why not? But it won't get you any closer to reality than you already are.

Jay, I still meditate -- every day. Just not as long as before. Now I look upon meditation much more as opening myself to truth, rather than trying to find a preconceived notion of what truth is.

So meditation seems more genuine and honest now, less conceptual, intellectual, and theological.

I have a glass of red wine most evenings. Often while I'm writing a blog post. If you feel that I make sense, this shows that Oregon pinot noir (or whatever) doesn't affect one's mental faculties much.

If you feel that I'm writing nonsense, then obviously it must be the fault of the wine, since from inside my head, everything I say is perfectly clear -- why everyone on Earth doesn't agree completely with me on every subject is the big question of life, from my utterly non-humble perspective.

It seems like many (most?) others feel the same way about themselves, which keeps the conversational wheel spinning pleasantly in the blogosphere and elsewhere.

Jay,

First of all, I highly resent your presmptious assertion that I "have strayed from the path". (because you more or less included me when you said: "those who were RSSB satsangi's")

I have not "strayed" from anything. Because I was not WITH anything to begin with... so therfore I have not "strayed" AWAY from anything. I simply have always been myself. I was never locked into or owned by the RS path or the RSSB. For me, there was/is nothing to stray away from.

However, you sound as if you think that if someone does not adhere to the RS cult and follow its dogma, if someone has a mind of thire own and thinks for themself, then that person has somehow "strayed".

But that is a very narrow, biased and faulty mentality. It is predicated upon a FALSE idea that the RS cult/path is THE Path, the only true path.

But in fact, it is quite the contrary... it is actually the individual who has become narrowly and artificially fixated upon and in the RS belief system, who is really the one who has "strayed" away from Reality, away from the spontaneous and natural state, away from the Great Way.


You also said: "okay I guess you do not meditate -- but do you still have a vegetarian diet and avoid alcohol etc."

-- Your preumption is mistaken again (about me). I DO meditate, but NOT at all anything like the RS mantra & nada-yoga/shabda-yoga & guru-bhakti method. My entire daily life is all my meditation... as 'instant presence' - the self-perfected state (dzogchen).

I also don't specifically adhere to any sort of dietary restrictions or limitations... although I never consume any kind of beef or red meat. I do eat several egg yolks daily and drink whey protein shakes (for weightlifting), and have no problem with occasional seafood. However, I don't bind or lock myself into any dietary limitations, which are always variable depending on circumstances.

I also drink wine and beer on rare occasions, but never regularly, frequently, or in excess. I don't smoke dope (pot or marijuana) either. Both alcohol and marijuana use is rather detrimental to maintaining a good male testosterone level. I myself desire to maintain adequately high testosterone levels because (1) I am into body-building/weight-lifting, and (2) I also enjoy indulging in frequent and good SEX with women. And in case you don't realize it, women ALWAYS prefer men who have high levels of male horny-mones and thus bigger harder erections. ... Which is also why I too am a charter member of the Church of Holy Fuck !

So anyway, my advice to you is to not become fixated upon narrow belief systems such as RS. Practice whatever meditation you like, if you wish, but just don't become mentally trapped in spiritual and religious dogma and morality.

Be Free.


TAo,

Too much infor.
Brian and Tuscon -- thanks for your reply.

Jay,

Then screw you, you stupid fucking DIMWIT.

Btw, YOU were the one who asked US the question.

So it's TOO BAD that you've got TOO LITTLE intelligence that you can't handle (or appreciate) "too much infor".

And NO THANKS to you.


TAo,

Same to you. You have just described yourself.

Jay,

I am not part of RSSB but I am definitely in the path. The path as per my view is one's journey towards awareness, self realization. I am veggie (no eggs), do meditation and follow the principles. I do not drink and am a celibate.

I see the radiant form and the inner guru is guiding me. SO it does not matter if I go to the formal gatherings as I long as I practise the path in its true mystic sense.

Minnie,

You said: "I see the radiant form and the inner guru is guiding me."

--Would you mind describing this experience and what sort of guidance you receive?

Jay, No matter how you respond now, or what you say now, you are still obviously a stupid fucking dimwit.

You asked us a question, and then you received some honest answers from myself and others. So I don't give a damn that you are so stupid and dimwitted that you can't handle or appreciate what you call "too much infor", or that my response is not to your liking. That's your problem, not mine.

Maybe you'll realize that when you grow-up and become less of a fool and more of a mature adult.


Minnie,

You said: "I see the radiant form and the inner guru is guiding me."

How do you know that you "see the radiant form"?

And why is that so significant to you?

And how do you know that "the inner guru is guiding" you? What "inner guru"? And where is this so-called "inner guru"? Is it just a feeling? How do you know that it is not a fantasy?

How do you know that it is real?

How do you know what is real?

I myself see/perceive an entire vast multi-dimensioned universe... but so what. So why do you suppose that you are seeing something unique, something special... and how is that perception "guiding" you?

Please explain. Thank you.


I have seen several people ( including those who are very close to me) taking initiation but the actual deeds of these people have been totally opposite to what RSSB preaches ?

I also feel initiation only makes people suffer from a sense of superority complex and they start looking down other people .

I totally agree with Tao rather than wasting time with RSSB it is much much better to spend some good time with your kids playing football or cricket (of course with a bottle of beer :-) ).

RSSB initiates are nothing but a way God has created a mechansm to collect a bunch of fools under a single umbrella.

Of course it is easy to identify a flock of people together and managing them rather that locating them individually and manipulating a hugely populated country like India.

Tao

I do not give importance to any experiences ( be it the radiant form or whatsoever). I just mentioned it. Regarding the directions from inner guru leaving the RSSB is itself a guidance. To come away from years of association within few minutes is the grace of inner guru. To discard everything even the experiences is the way. I believe the truth or inner guru is guiding me in true mystical sense.

can anyone plz send me email id of baba ji of radha soami satsang beas plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz send me

Rupinder,
All you have to do is go inside and babaji will be there.

Yeah Rupinder,

All you have to do is go way down deep "inside" the toilet, down inside the sewer, and there you will find "baba ji of radha soami satsang beas" lurking among the rest of the turds.

And also, just post YOUR own e-mail address here, and I will be sure to then send you what you need.


what ever u said, as indonesian satsangi i love babaji, i love rssb. GBU

Wake up.its high time.all of u r seeking something thats already within u!rssb is nothing but a huge multi-billion dollar,money making industry,feeding on ignorance of millions like u.the cream layer of babas are nothing but thugs.where do u think the money goes?what is ranbaxy,fortis and max?dont be blinded by illusions.u wont find anything like peace or god in there.he is within u.search urself

radhaswami

request kerna hai ki baba ji ka satsang 7 & 8 Feb 09 ko lucknow me hona hai, jisme badi tadad me log aate hai, jisme bade-bude, mareej, ladees aur bachhe bhi hote hai, pichle do bar se satsang ke khatem hone per sangat se wapas lotene me kafi takleef ka samna kerna pada tha, so aapse request hai ki is bar aisa na ho iske liya Lucknow ke pariwahan deptt. se bat ki jai ki Charbag se PGI tak chalne wali Bus ka root 7 & 8 Feb 09 ko badheker Mohanlalganj tak kar diya jai aur Bus ki sankhya bhi bhada de jai jisse logo ko ghar wapas jane me takleef ka samna na kerna pade. thankyou

(vivek kr. vishen)
9/6 tikait rai talab colony
Lucknow,
09452049670
e-mal- [email protected]

fuck 0ff with osho organisation and his thinkings i am tatally against them

Jonny Singh A Song of Sixpence - what is the form of meditation that you now practice that you say has been more beneficial for you?

My name is Maggie
Gurinder Dhillon (the Guru)and I had some major disageements on a property that I purchased from Haynes Park Estate other wise know as THE RADHA SOAMI FAITH. Even before I purchased from him he instigated a full roit against me and a number of board of trustees quit because of the illeaglities of his actions. I can give full details to what happen including the parcipants and I know how he effects peoples minds. I also know how to stop his bullshit and bring him down. He aslo said at a private interview that no one believes he God, I also know his delusional state of mind he need the co-denpends of the so called faithfull to even believe that he is God.
If anyone is interested in hearing the full details especially what happen at Haynes Park Estate in Bedforshire England I would love to tell the story as it happened.

Its Maggie again
Has anyone ever considered that Gurinder Dhillon is one of the worlds richest men with property holdings all over the world and nearly every city and the money just keeps poring in, he ahs at least 4 properties in the UK one which is an office buliding and rents out to businesses. And that also encourages him to do things on a level that can not even be considered humanitarian? Big deal he's a veggie.

Maggie,

I would love to listen the story, if you wish.

Thanks and best rgds.

Maggie, I also would welcome you sharing your story. You can either leave another comment, or you could email me (use link in right sidebar). Your choice.

Hi maggie, I would also like to hear your story,you can email me at [email protected]

Thanks

Maggie,

You purchased the property from Gurinder, and he rioted? If you are the buyer and paying cash, he should dance with joy. Cash is king, screw the property ownership.

In the interview, are you saying, Gurinder thinks he is God? A GIHF?

Mysticism,Christian and Buddist is an enjoyable,thought-provoking work that gives the reader much to ponder.

I built my hut beside a travelled road,
Yet hear no noise of passing cart and horses.
You would like to know how it's done?
With the mind detached,one's place become remote.
Picking chrysanthemums by the eastern hedge
I catch sight of the distant southern hills,
The mountain air is lovely as the sun sets
And flock of flying birds return together.
In these things is a fundemental truth
I would like to tell,but lack the words.

The poetry of T'ao Ch'ien translated by J.R Hightower.

rishi, nice poem. I'd like to live like that. So long as my laptop had a fast broadband connection and I could watch satellite TV. Oh, the poet said "with the mind detached, one's place become remote."

Guess I can keep my laptop and TV.


A good read - a long one though. But not long enough to discard.

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem
science has with God, The Almighty.

He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

Prof: So you believe in God?

Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?

Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?

Student: Yes.

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal
him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God
didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God
good?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?

Student: No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?

Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything.
Correct?

Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?

(Student does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?

(Student has no answer.)

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever

seen God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your

God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science
says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't.

(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even

more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat.
But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below
zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is
no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the
absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the
opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as
darkness?


Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light....But if
you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness,
isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to
make
darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue
there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are
viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity
and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either
one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact
that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life: just the absence of it.

Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from
a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of
course, I do.

Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where
the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor,
are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a
preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's
brain?

(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain,
felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So,
according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir.

With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)

Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is
all that keeps things moving & alive.

NB: I believe you have enjoyed the conversation...and if so...you'll
probably want your friends/colleagues to enjoy the same...won't you?....


this is a true story, and the student was none other Abdul kamal azad (former indian president who is also an scientist)

A man does what he can...
Until HIS DESTINY is REVEALED to him.

Sorry the name was Abdul Kalam Azad

The Mantra that RSSB uses can be found on the internet and other organisations also uses it. It's no secret. That is just a ploy to suck you in.

Gurinder looked straight at me and said I'm God but no one believes me. I thought I wonder why.
I hate to be the last man on earth under the delusion of being God, what a head fuck.

Minnie our consciousness always is radiant, and we can even project our illusions to look radiant etc. Its called altered states. When I have a spiritually experience there are times when there is no explanation for it. But my teachers have said that there are many such experiences which are just that. Experiences. Anything that is not directly experienced by the 5 physical senses then we label spiritual. I do not deny your experience but if you do not have the how to authenticate your experiences on a daily level you could find yourself in a sticky mess as I was. Believe me after reading Sant Mat books I too would have loved to have such experiences. Fortunately for myself my delusions were limited.

Too answer someone else question I have not strayed off the path of RSSB I left it very willing. I have never been very involved in intoxicants, seen too much side offects in other people. Was veggie but had major trouble with my tummy. Veggie was a major contributor of ill health. Even today I can only eat little raw vegtables and fruit.
I have seen too many people of having major trouble with thier health because of the ignorant tenants of Sant Mat. It's fine if your system can take it but not to prove the Crucifixation Jesus Christ syndrome,"I suffer to please my God". Suffering has not ever brought happiness (look at the world) or brought spiritual experiences or enlightment or the God experience.
Althought it has universally known for mutipule centuires that drug and alcohol abuse is very bad. This tenant of Sant Mat is nothing knew.

response to rishi story

The Atheist Professor with no Brain
Doug Kreuger has expanded the well-known Christian legend of the atheist philosophy professor who is unable to prove that he has a brain.

"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment.

"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here, and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."

No answer.

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

No answer.

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er... Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From...God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?"

No answer.

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them?"

No answer.

The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climb into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" No answer. The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

No answer.

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

No answer.

"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... In fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

No answer.

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

The student doesn't answer.

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits...Defeated.

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come,

come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

'Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."Silence.

A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly, you have nothing, and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.

This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then here's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face spits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.

The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"

The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?"

The class breaks out in laughter.

The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?"

No one appears to have done so.

The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for.

The professor, amused at the student's antics, asks the student whether he's ever read anything about science.

"No," says the student. "I only know what I've heard in church."

"That explains your ignorance about what science is, young man," says the professor. "Empirical knowledge of something does not always entail direct observation. We can observe the effects of something and know that it must exist. Electrons have not been observed, but they can create an observable trail that can be observed, so we can know they exist."

"Oh," said the Christian.

"No one has observed my heart, but we can hear it beating. We also know from empirical knowledge of people that no one can live without a heart, real or manufactured, or at least not without being also hooked up to some medical equipment. So we can know that I have a heart even though we have not seen it."

"Oh, I see. That makes sense," said the Christian student.

"Similarly, we can know that I have a brain. I wouldn't be able to talk, walk, and so on unless I had one, would I?" said the professor.

"I guess not."

"In fact, if I had no brain I couldn't do anything at all. Except maybe become a televangelist!"

The class broke up with laughter. Even the Christian laughed.

"Evolution is known to be true because of evidence," continued the professor. "It is the best explanation for the fossil record. Even prominent creationists admit that the transition from reptiles to mammals is well documented in the fossil record. A creationist debate panel, including Michael Behe and Philip Johnson, conceded this on a televised debate on PBS. It was on Buckley's "Firing Line" show. Did you see it?"

The Christian student cleared his throat and said in a low voice, "My mom won't let me watch educational TV. She thinks it will weaken my faith."

The professor shook his head sadly. "Knowledge does have a way of doing that," he said. "But in any case, evolution is also the best explanation for phenomena that have been observed."

The Christian student sputters, "You--you mean we HAVE seen it?"

"Of course. Evolution has occured within recent times, and it continues to occur. Birds and insects not native to Hawaii were introduced just a couple of centuries ago and have evolved to take better advantage of the different flora. So this evolution has taken place within recorded history. Recent history. Did you know that?"

"Uh, no."

"Viruses other diseases evolve to become resistant to medicine. This is not only observed but it is a major problem that science must confront every day. Mosquitos in the tunnels of London's underground have evolved to become separate species because of their isolation from other groups of mosquitos. But enough about evolution. That doesn't have anything to do with our issue, evil, does it?"

"Well..."

"What does it have to do with our issue?" asked the professor.

"Well, if you don't believe in god, then you must believe we came from apes."

The professor laughed. "Evolutionists don't believe that people came from apes or even monkeys. They believe that humans and apes had a common ancestor."

"Wow!" said the Christian. "That's not what they told me at church."

"I'm sure. They can't refute evolution so they have to spread misinformation about it. But don't you know that many Christians believe that god made humans by evolution?"

"I didn't know that."

"In fact, of the four people who debated the evolution side on PBS, on William F. Buckley's 'Firing Line,' which I just mentioned, two of them were theists. One of them is a reverend, in fact."

"Really?"

"Really. Many denominations of Christianity embrace evolution. Catholicism, the largest denomination of Christianity, is compatible with evolution. So evolution is not relevant here, is it?"

"I guess not."

"Even if it were true that you have to be an atheist to believe evolution, which is not the case, and even if it were the case that evolution was unsupported by evidence, which is also not the case, this would not explain evil at all, would it. It is irrelevant."

"I see that now," said the Christian. "I don't even know why I brought it up. I guess I thought it was an example of how you believe something without evidence."

"Well," said the professor. "As you can see, it is not. There is plenty of evidence for evolution. And even if there were no evidence, this has no bearing on the issue of evil. As we proceed through the philosophy course, you will see how to use your reasoning ability to separate important issues from irrelevant ones."

"I'm guess learning already," said the student, looking at the floor.

"But back to the problem of evil," said the professor. "You stated that evil is the absence of good. How does that solve the problem of evil?"

The student said lifelessly: "If evil is the absence of good, then god did not create evil." It was evident that this was something the student had learned by rote and had often repeated.

The professor shrugged his shoulders. "Okay, let's suppose for the moment that this is true. This still does not explain evil. If a tidal wave wipes out a whole town, and 100,000 people die, is that evil?"

"There is the absence of good," said the student.

"But so what? The problem is why god did not prevent the disaster. If god is all-powerful he can prevent it, and if he is all-knowing he knows that it is about to happen. So whether he created the tidal wave is not relevant. What we want to know is why he did not do anything to stop it."

The student looked confused. "But why should he prevent it? It's not his fault."

"If a human being had the power to prevent a tidal wave wiping out a town, and this person intentionally failed to stop it, we would not say that the person is good. Even if the person said, 'It's not my fault,' we would be appalled that someone could stand by and do nothing as thousands die. So if god does not prevent natural disasters, and he is able to do so, we should not say that god is good by the same reasoning. In fact, we would probably say that god is evil."

The Christian student thought for a moment. "I guess I'd have to agree."

"So redefining evil as the absence of good does nothing to solve the problem of evil," said the professor. "At best it shows that god did not create it, but this does not explain why god does not prevent it."

The Christian student shook a finger at the professor. "But that's according to our human standards. What if god has a higher morality? We can't judge him by our standards."

The professor laughed. "Then you just lost your case. If you admit that god does not fit our definition of good, then we should not call him good. Case closed."

"I don't understand," said the student, wrinkling his brow.

"If I go outside and see a vehicle with four tires, a metal body, a steering wheel, a motor and so on, and it fits the definition of a car, is it a car?" "Of course it is," said the Christian student. "That's what a car is."

"But what if someone says that on some other definition it could be considered an airplane. Does that mean it's not a car?"

"No," said the student. "It still fits the definition of a car. That's what we mean by saying that it's a car. It doesn't fit the definition of an airplane, so we shouldn't call it that."

"Exactly," said the professor. "If it fits the definition, then that's what it is. If god fits the definition of good, then he is good. If he does not, then he is not. If you admit that he does not fit our definition of good, then he is not good. It does no good to say that he could be 'good' in some other definition. If we want to know whether he is good by our definition, you have answered that question. God is not good."

"I don't believe it!" said the Christian student. "A few minutes ago I would have laughed at the suggestion that god is not good, but now I actually agree. God doesn't fit the definition of good, so he's not good."

"There you go," said the professor.

"But wait a minute," said the student. "God could still be good in some other definition even if we don't call him good. Despite what we think, god could still have his own morality that says he's good. Even if we couldn't call him good, that doesn't mean that he isn't good on some definition. He could have his own definition anyway."

"Oh, you would not want to push the view that god might be good in some other definition," said the professor.

"Why not?" "Well, if he has definitions of things that are radically different from our own, he might have a different definition of lots of other things. He might have his own definitions of such things as eternal reward, or eternal life. Your supposed eternal life in heaven might just be a year, or it could be a thousand years of torture. God could just say he has a definition of reward that includes excruciating torture as part of the definition."

"That's right!" said the Christian, jumping up. His eyes were wide open. "If god can redefine any word, then anything goes. God could send all believers to what we call hell and say that it is heaven. He could give us ten days in heaven and say that that's his definition of eternity!"

"Now you're thinking!" said the professor, pointing a finger at the student. "This is what a philosophy class is supposed to do for students."

The Christian student continued. "God could promise us eternal life and then not give it to us and say that's his definition of keeping a promise!"

"Yes, yes," said the professor.

"I can't believe I used to fall for this Christianity stuff. It's so indefensible," said the student, shaking his head. "Just a few moment's thought and all the arguments that my church gave me in Sunday school just collapse."

"So it would seem," said the professor.

"I'm going to go to my church tonight and give the pastor a piece of my mind. They never tell me about important stuff like this. And they sure didn't tell me the truth about evolution!"

The student, who stood up as a Christian, now sat down as an atheist. And he started using his brain--because that's what it's for. The other students in the class sat there, stunned, for a few moments. They knew they had witnessed the changing of a person's life, the redirection of a young mind from falsehood and religious dogma to the honest pursuit of truth.

The students looked at each other and then began applauding. This soon gave way to cheering. The professor took a bow, laughing. When the students calmed down he continued his lecture, and class attendance was high for the rest of the semester.

copied from http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/brain.htm

digiti, thanks for sharing this. It's lengthy, but a useful corrective to the original version -- which I found highly unpersuasive.

It's amazing that religious fundamentalists find half-baked arguments so appealing.

I didn't feel at all that the believer got the better of the philosopher in the original version, but apparently the person who left it as a comment considered that he did.

Al fikr fuqr.

Robert Paul Howard

Digiti says there is good and evil because "The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

--Sounds like a children's fairy tale. Why does does god give a damn if we choose good over evil? In his lofty position you would think he would have transcended such dualistic concepts. Besides, he made so many of us so very stupid we don't even know the difference. I mean there are still people who think OJ is innocent and got a raw deal. How stupid is that? People are helpless to extricate themselves and if god had half a brain he would know it. I know, he sent his son to bear our sins for us. Why does a loving father want to put his beloved son through the grinder? Why does god play such games? To sadistically torment us mortals and his only begotten son? I think such a god is a devil.
If he is such a great guy why not just let everyone go to heaven, including satan himself, and everything will be just hunky-dory.

What a load of rubbish.

By the way, I think evolution and creation are simultaneous. The obstacle to comprehending this is the concept of time. But that's another story.

To all,

The one who calls himself "tucson" has stated that: "Digiti says there is good and evil because 'The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil.'"

However, this is not so. These were words spoken by "[t]he Christian" in the tale presented by "digiti."

I hope that no criticism of "digiti" will be credited because of a contention falsely attributed to him.

Robert Paul Howard

How can we be sure the christian in the story is indeed not digiti? Hmmm?

Because the point of the tale cited by "digiti" (cf. the last "paragraph" in his note) shows "the christian" to have come no longer to exist: "The student, who stood up as a Christian, now sat down as an atheist. And he started using his brain--because that's what it's for. The other students in the class sat there, stunned, for a few moments. They knew they had witnessed the changing of a person's life, the redirection of a young mind from falsehood and religious dogma to the honest pursuit of truth." (-Two paragraphs up from the citation information.)

Therefore - even if "digiti" is actually Doug Kreuger (which I personally find quite doubtful) - "the christian" (who once was) no longer subsists in the "digiti" who has now supplied the story. This contention held by "the christian," therefore, is not one presently maintained by "digiti," and (the present) "digiti" should not now be held responsible for an opinion he no longer adheres to.

If I am in error regarding this, I would appreciate "digiti" correcting my error.

Robert Paul Howard

In responces to the professor, while the man may not beleive in God he had evidence of how the natural order of our world works. The God can not be proven or disproven. The argument of God has been on going without proof for centuries and the Theologins have a yearly meeting to argue their beliefs. The point about God is we can make clever arguments but all it does is we argue about something that can not be proven or disproven.

I want to thank Robert for his comments on the tale I uploaded. In a moment of weakness I reacted to, as tuscson said, a fairy tale or pious fraud if you will, where the smug believer gets the best of the atheist professor. In various forms of this tale the student has been said to be Albert Einstein and in the case of rishi’s upload, Abdul Kalam Azad (former Indian president who is also a scientist), who defeats the professor, with as Brian said, half-baked arguments. I thought it was obvious that Doug Kreuger (not me) in his tale was trying to address the believer on his own terms.

I am an agnostic with view that the built in holodeck we perceive reality with can be tweaked by meditation, drugs like ketamine and dmt., external trauma and watching Fox news. These tweaks result in how we generate our perceptions of reality. This is a very, very succinct explanation.

I am a lurker because of a few reasons:
1. I have an IQ of 60 and I am in rapid cognitive decline because of my age, so I could not hope to be able to spar with some of the great intellects who post her.
2. My significant other is still a Beas believer and even if good and evil are just subjective labels for certain events. I would be subject to practical application of these events by the significant other withholding pleasure and inflicting pain, if the significant other was aware of me posting here.
3. Time. I am starting a new cult called Fraudasoami. Our motto: we deceive, you believe. Our ultimate goal: to recruit enough slavadars to establish fiefdoms worldwide.

Before I go back into lurker mode I would like to thank Brian especially for his courage in providing this forum and also his ideas. Also thanks to everyone that posts here, I find a wealth of great posts. Flame on.

I have been through this blog,i do not yet understand what is the true purpose of this blog,this blog has no positive message at all.
This blog just says, none the all, we the hall.
I m unable to understand this discussions.
Everyone is here going either my way or highyway terms.
And i have seen and observed RSSB is the on aim with high priority,i have heard about this Path but nothing much in detail.But i m about to try entering this path.
As i m from india can anyone help me regarding the reality of the path called as RSSB.
I also know it have many branches.
Can i know in detail about RSSB please but i would prefer personal Email at [email protected] because i want to discuss it for myself not for others.

Dear Rishi
We all have tales about RSSB and what it is not. Yeah it can be very confusing .

Anyone been to the RSSB website? The buildings are very impressive. Over 90 centers but only a few main ones are on the web. The other assets are not listed. I think the man is a billionaire. With just a few hand full that live on the properties for maintenance and a free gulug to do all the labour and he justifies this as?

Maggie, Did you share your story with anybody :) I would like to hear it. Let me know if you are willing then I can share my email address.
Thx!

digiti, I like your sense of humor. It's good to know that someone else is as controlled by their significant other as I am.

One of my favorite sayings is, "For a man to lose his ego and sense of self-importance, either he should meditate in a cave for twenty years, or be married for two."

Sorry Guys
Just moved and will be shariing my story next week. Still unpacking and sorting. It is important that I tell my story not just for me but also for others who need to hear it. Next Monday Part 1 will be told.
Maggie xo
Also will have a photo treat .

No matter how much light you shed on this matter there are those who refuse to look introrepectively and realise that we are all human beings with many faults there is no perfect master other than yourself and your relationship with your belief even if it is with a charlotten LOL!!

You best keep you're views to yourself, you will be destroyed you empty lost soul.

This msg goes to the person above...
HOW DARE YOY SAY THINGS ABOUT MY BABA JI... You deserve a big hard slap across your face!!!!!... you idiot!!!! Get a life.....
I cant wait to have naam....I love my Baba Ji....

karen, no doubt your visit here was but momentary. i doubt you will return even to read this. i bet you are just another hit-and-run troll. but, just in case you do happen to come back and read this, i have this to say to you:

the immature, rude and violent tone of your comment shows exactly what wonderful benefits and virtues you have garnered from RS and your future guru, or as you say your "Baba Ji".

you are an angry fanatic, quite immature, and you are precisely what you accuse others of being, namely an "idiot".

you came to this site on your own, and no one forced you. and other people here can say whatever they damn well please about your "Baba Ji".

you go around wanting to slap people's faces because their opinions about the RS guru are different than yours. thats how emotionally disturbed and fanatical you are.

it just goes to show what kind of messed up goons gurinders's admirers and disciples really are.

so let this be a lesson to you. you don't own the internet or this site, and neither does that corrupt cult master of yours. and your bad behavior as expressed in your comment here, actually reflects quite badly on your "Baba Ji" as well.

the qualities of a master, a teacher, or a leader, are reflected in the qualties of his disciples, students, or followers.

and so thats how i can tell that your "Baba Ji" is a bad apple... just like you.

so how does it feel to be such a great advertisment for your future master?



MORE ON BRIAN HINES CONTACT NETEMARA...


This is what Netemara said about Sant Mat about the time that the revelations concerning Religare were coming to light...She also claims to be among other things the reincarnation of Madame Blavatsky the founder of the Theosophical Society!!

I've had to change my life and my eating habits. I have also cut all ties with
Sant Mat. I have not meditated in years and my conscious just told me one day
"after forty years of strict vegetarianism it doesn't matter what YOU eat." So
here I am. I will probably write an article in more detail later about all the
reasons. For young people it works just fine, but I am well past 50 now and it
just was not working for me.

March 27 2010


The above is taken from Theosophy talks truth....the Spiritual Politico.. Netemaras yahoo discussion group...and this is her intro to that site (Below)...

People may not be buying my book but they are sure as heck reading "Heloise," and heloise-speak is catching fire in the MSM. Everywhere I go I see my words writ large, and "painted" (everyone is using my word notice?) on TV show titles. The very titles and phrases are everywhere on products from perfume to TV shows. I guess it's my karma to give it away--I mean, the thinking and the voice inside my head (Heloise) that writes or rather speaks as I write. Speaking of speaking; Heloise speaks as JFK in video done in Chicago. Now uploaded at The Politikos.

Netemara

..She sounds to be rather interesting sort of character to put it mildly!!
RS


DOES BRIAN HINES, AND ANYONE ELSE REALLY UNDERSTAND FAQIR CHAND...?

Faqir Chand was a respected Shabd Yoga Mystic who made a very important claim. He revealed that disciples came to him and sometimes claimed that they had miracles in connection "with him", and his Radiant Form when, and wherever it materialized either internally, or externally. They believed him to be the physical manifestation of God. Yet, Faqir said that he knew nothing of his disciples experiences, and miracles. In other words, unlike God he was not really omniscient which was something he discovered with masters like him notably those dealing with Surat Shabd Yoga. He came to the conclusion that it was the disciples belief in him that caused miracles, and meditational pheonmena to occur within themselves. Thus, when they saw the inner Radiant Form of Faqir Chand it was simply the manifestation of their own inner Personal God, or Higher Self. Ofcourse, in some cases it can be just a projection of the mind, or somekind of "evil" entity on the inner planes.

Chand made the very relevant point that "unscrupulous" gurus could take advantage of their true disciples materially...and yet, the latter would have genuine spiritual experiences, and miracles of their preceptors...Thus, if a true RS devotee sees the inner Radiant Form of Gurinder Singh it is quite probable that this is the manifestion of their Higher Self, or Personal God..As I have suggested before there has to be A LIVE SPIRITUAL LINK IN THE GURU LINEAGE FOR THIS TO BE A GENUINE SPIRITUAL PHENOMENA RATHER THAN PSYCHIC TRICKERY...

In effect, for a real devotee of GS the question of whether he is a crook, or not has no relevance. The highly charged Satsang energies would suggests that the Beas Satsang is still a genuine spiritual society inspite of its physical outer master!!!
In other words, real devotees have nothing to worry about, and should arguably ignore the claims on this site. THE REAL GURU LIES WITHIN OURSELF AND IS OUR REAL HIGHER SELF, OR REAL PERSONAL GOD. The emerging allegations are a powerful karmic test to possibly wipe off alot of bad actions of a previous life,or lives...

I am not saying that the above is completely correct but from an esoteric standpoint it is a distinct possibility...but it cannot be proved in a fully scientific sense...


If Jay is genuine about seeing the inner Radiant Form of the Master I am wondering whether he would agree with the Faqir Chands claims in the above communication? If he is willing to discuss further publicly or contact me privately he can so at my email address [email protected] ...I would be interested to know more if pos.

I know there is secrecy concerning such inner experiences but I also believe that for whatever reasons the Higher Self within the person (though there are ofcourse many "cases" in which the mind itself can cause tricks)may break this taboo, and may not mind some degree of information being disclosed for possible public consumption..

Robert Searle's statements, and my responses:

"Netemara [...] She also claims to be among other things the reincarnation of Madame Blavatsky the founder of the Theosophical Society"

-- yes, as well as claiming to have been JFK, and several other famous people throughout history. pretty goofy. but so what? she is well known for this sort of nonsense. so what is your point Robert? why even mention this person and her nonsense?

[Robert then quotes Netemara]: "I've had to change my life and my eating habits. I have also cut all ties with Sant Mat. I have not meditated in years and my conscious just told me one day "after forty years of strict vegetarianism it doesn't matter what YOU eat."

-- ok, so she abandoned sant mat and possibly vegetarianism, but so what? other people have done that too. and who cares what netemarea did or does? why are you so concerned with a fruitcake like netemara? netemara is a known nutcake, and by touting her, you make yourself look pretty darn stupid as well.

"She sounds to be rather interesting sort of character to put it mildly"

-- no Robert, she is a nutcake. thats about as un-interesting as it gets.

"DOES BRIAN HINES, AND ANYONE ELSE REALLY UNDERSTAND FAQIR CHAND...?"

-- well i think Brian does. i know i do. i know a fair bit about what Faqir Chand taught and had to say. because i happen to have met and known Dr Sharma personally. and Sharma told me a great deal about Faqir Chand. Sharma even invited me to come and stay as a guest at his own home in Hoshiapur, anytime i wanted to for as long as i wanted. so i'd venture to say that i probably understand Faqir Chand a little better than you do.

"Chand made the very relevant point that "unscrupulous" gurus could take advantage of their true disciples materially...and yet, the latter would have genuine spiritual experiences, and miracles of their preceptors."

-- well thats no excuse to follow "unscrupulous gurus". thats a rather stupid rationalization is you ask me. people have experiences for all sorts of reasons that have nothing at all to do with gurus, whether the gurus be fake or real.so your point is lame imo.

"Thus, if a true RS devotee sees the inner Radiant Form of Gurinder Singh it is quite probable that this is the manifestion of their Higher Self, or Personal God."

-- no, not necessarily. its much more likely that its just an illusion, a mental projection, a type of hallucination prodcued by sanskaras and vasanas. this happens all the time. and has absolutley nothing to do with any "Higher Self, or Personal God".

"As I have suggested before there has to be A LIVE SPIRITUAL LINK IN THE GURU LINEAGE FOR THIS TO BE A GENUINE SPIRITUAL PHENOMENA RATHER THAN PSYCHIC TRICKERY."

-- thats an absolute load of rubbish. lineage has nothing to do with it. this is nonsense.

"In effect, for a real devotee of GS the question of whether he is a crook, or not has no relevance."

-- now you are clearly out to lunch. thats like saying that being a 'sincere and naive' believer in a LIE, results in truth. thats absurd and illogical double speak. so i think you need your head examined. if that were true, then it wouldn't matter what anyone believes. thats worse than netemara.

"The highly charged Satsang energies would suggests that the Beas Satsang is still a genuine spiritual society inspite of its physical outer master"

-- no, that suggests that you are an irrational person who imagines things. and a supposed "spiritual society" is not the point.

"In other words, real devotees have nothing to worry about, and should arguably ignore the claims on this site."

-- now here we see what you are really up to. "real devotees" of what? of a fake guru? of an illusion? of a myth? you are nothing more than an apaogist for RS and its guru-cultism. and thats blatantly obvious in this last comment of yours.

"THE REAL GURU LIES WITHIN OURSELF AND IS OUR REAL HIGHER SELF, OR REAL PERSONAL GOD."

-- so says you. thats nothing but mere words and mystical mumbo-jumbo. you are dreaming. there is nothing that "lies within". and there is no "higher self". there is only what you are right here and now. there is no 'inner self' or 'inner guru' or inner "personal god". there is only you, simply as you are.

"The emerging allegations are a powerful karmic test to possibly wipe off alot of bad actions of a previous life,or lives."

-- oh boy!!! now you are really out to lunch. "a powerful karmic test" what utter garbage! you are an apologist. how disgusting. you want to try to use this "karic test" bullshit as an excuse for the gurus misbehavior. this is the same shit that crazy bastards like you always use to BLAME THEW VICTIM, instead of blaming the one who is perpetrator of the abuse, or bad behavior, or lies, or exploitation, or rape, or a thousand other evils. imo, you are a sick puppy Robert. you want to blame the gurus bad behavior on the disciples. you want to make excuses for his bad behovir by calling it a "karmic test". you are just another crazed RS cult guru sycophant. so what are you doing here?

"I am not saying that the above is completely correct but from an esoteric standpoint it is a distinct possibility."

-- thats a load of crap. there is an overwhemingly "distinct possibility" that it is absolutely INCORRECT.

"If Jay is genuine about seeing the inner Radiant Form of the Master I am wondering whether he would agree with the Faqir Chands claims in the above communication?"

-- Jay said nothing at all about any "inner Radiant Form". so i think you are mixed-up Robert. here is Jay's actual initial post from 2008:

"For those who were RSSB satsangi's but have strayed from the path -- okay I guess you do not meditate -- but do you still have a vegetarian diet and avoid alcohol etc. Just out of interest" Posted by: Jay | September 15, 2008 at 04:03 AM

"I know there is secrecy concerning such inner experiences but I also believe that for whatever reasons the Higher Self within the person (though there are ofcourse many "cases" in which the mind itself can cause tricks)may break this taboo, and may not mind some degree of information being disclosed for possible public consumption."

-- you say that, "the Higher Self within"... "may not mind some degree of information being disclosed for possible public consumption"??? the "higher self", "may not mind"? you've really got to be kidding dude. thats about the most ridiculously absurd nonsense as i have ever heard (or read). do try to be a little more reasonable Robert. and quit making excuses for the RS leader's pseudo-mysticism, and what amouts to his questionalable leadership & financial misbehavior.


In Brief..

i) The reason why I brought up Netemara is because Hines put up something about her in his article...which arguably raises his own judgement of doing so in the light of the public information about her beliefs ofcourse.

ii) I agree the theory concerning Faqir Chands view, and GS is absurd by our human standards but it does not mean that it is impossible, or untrue. It is just a potential justification....

Moreover, a certain amout of esoteric data does suggest that this could be possible. The Dharma Body in Buddhism is one example mentioned before in which a radiant replica of a living (or dead) teacher could appear in meditation. However, this may be a manifestation of the Higher Self as some Buddhists seem to suggest. Thus, it has no connection as such with the living teacher who may ofcourse be imperfect.

The Sufis talk about the Man of Light, and have a similiar notion to the above. This "Man of Light" may be the same in certain instances to the Being of Light in Near Death Experiences. Some may interpret it as Christ,or Buddha, and presumably can take on any form if necessary such as a radiant duplicate of GS. This does not necessarily mean that such phenomena come from a lower source (ie. ones own projected imagination, or some inferior "entity")but in certain instances from higher sources...and perhaps depending on the individuals evolution the "highest" source. In other words, the real manifestation of the Higher Self........

Per chance, I saw this on Pryors blog which I reproduce here, and has some relevance to the above..

So strong is this iconic version of my grandmother in my sensibility that she has become an almost bohemian wise woman in the semi-fictional screenplay I’ve adapted from my own memoir of my Cambridge childhood, The Survival of the Coolest. Without giving anything away and without you needing to know the plot, I hope, let me read you a short scene that centers around her and featuring a fictional 10yr old boy who happens to be called William Pryor and his doppelganger Atma....

...So what? He mentions "his doppelganger Atma...The Atma can be translated as the Soul, or as our Personal God, or Higher Self.
Unfortunately, in this instance it is called William Pryor!!!

Maybe he inwardly sees Charan Singh as the doppelganger of his own Atma!!


Robert:

"GS is absurd by our human standards but it does not mean that it is impossible, or untrue."

-- could you be more specific? what is it that are you saying that could be possible? that GS is not just another ordinary human being? or what?

"Moreover, a certain amout of esoteric data does suggest that this could be possible."

-- that what is possible? the radiant form? i am not sure what it is that you are referring to when you say "this could be possible".

"The Dharma Body in Buddhism is one example mentioned before in which a radiant replica of a living (or dead) teacher could appear"

-- again, not sure what you are referring to. in buddhism, the the 'dharmakaya' or truth body is that which embodies the very principle of enlightenment and has no limits or boundaries. the 'sambhogakaya' is a body of bliss or clear light manifestation. and the 'nirmanakaya' is the created body which manifests in time and space. so it sounds like you are referring to the sambhogakaya and not the dharmakaya or "Dharma body".

"However, this may be a manifestation of the Higher Self as some Buddhists seem to suggest."

-- buddhism does not believe in a true self or "Higher Self", aka the atman. in buddhism there is no such higher self.

"it has no connection as such with the living teacher who may ofcourse be imperfect."

-- that doesn't make much sense. if your supposed "higher self" has no connection to the human teacher, the guru, then what's the point of a guru? and moreover, your notion that human guru has no connection to the supposed "higher self", is in complet opposition to what sant mat & RS teaches. sant mat & RS teaches that the guru (the master) is the embodiment of the shabd, the human incarnation of the supreme godhead radha soami. that is what RS teaches, which is not at all what you are proposing... namely that the human guru has no connection to the "higher self", the true self, the divine self... the atman.

"The Sufis talk about the Man of Light, and have a similiar notion to the above. This "Man of Light" may be the same in certain instances to the Being of Light in Near Death Experiences. Some may interpret it as Christ,or Buddha, and presumably can take on any form if necessary such as a radiant duplicate of GS."

-- i believe what you are refering to is the sufi notion of the 'Insan Kamil', or the Perfect Man. the insan kamil is not some sort of light body or light being, but rather it a man (or woman) who has a resplendent heart full of virtues and divine (godly) qualities. in sufism, a Qutub (or param sat guru) is an insan kamil, a man of divine qualities and virtue.

"This does not necessarily mean that such phenomena come from a lower source but in certain instances from higher sources [..] In other words, the real manifestation of the Higher Self."

-- what is a "manifestation of the Higher Self"?? you assert that this higher self exists, but manifest as what? as the master? but you said that there was "no connection" to the human master. so which is it? you are saying that the higher self exists, but it has no connection to the human master or guru. so whats the point? if this "higher self" has no connection to the human master/guru, then therfore no human master/guru is necessary. so this so-called"higher self" theory of yours doesn't support any of the RS teachings. in the RS teachings, the human master IS the divine shabd incarnate, and as such, the human master is the only one who can supposedly 'connect' the human disciple with the divine shabda. that is what RS teaches, and not what you are proposing. what you are proposing is antithetical to that. what you are proposing is that it doesn't matter whether or not the master/guru is genuine and perfect, or imperfect... or real or false. what you are proposing defeats the purpose of needing a master. and that is totally opposed to what RS teaches. what you are saying is that it is irrelevant whether the master/guru is real or is a fraud... because the disciple will nevertheless still connect with the shabd or the "higher self". so you are really just trying to justify RS disciples remaining attached to a false master/guru. thats nonsense. you are just an apologist for gurinder and RS. you are using this irrational and illogical theory and its subsequent lame justification, so as to keep satsangis continuing to believe, and not worry about gurinder's imperfections and possible corruption. thats basically what it amounts to.

why don't you just cut the crap, and all the mystical mumbo jumbo about "higher self" etc, and just deal with the facts. and one big fact is that following a false master or guru is simply NOT going to achieve spiritual liberation (or union with god) for anyone. and another big fact is that masters & gurus who teach their disciples to be non-worldly (like the RS guru does), but the master & gurus themselves amass material wealth, are outright hypocrites and frauds. and so it is these (and other) facts that you are apparently trying to excuse and distract from, with all this "higher self" nonsense.

one more thing... you said: "The Atma can be translated as the Soul, or as our Personal God, or Higher Self."

-- i must disagree with your definition. the "Atma" (or atman), refers not to any "Soul" or "Personal God", but rather to the fundamental or essential true nature, the infinite, the non-dual Absolute or Brahman. the atman is not the "soul". the atman is brahman, the infinite absolute. there are not many 'atmas'. there is only ONE atma, or atman. the atman is non-dual.

so Pryor's use of the term "Atma" in a personal sense, is incorrect.


I read a lot of the above comments and did so some years ago. I am a satsangi for 15 years or so now and am struggling with the some stuff. Wonder if someone will read this though ;)

I read that a satguru does not have to achieve the highest level possible, that makes sense to me but I've read that only a truth master can initiate so there must be a lie somewhere. If the satguru refers to your inner master that makes sense to me too.

Especially because I've had the following experiences:
1-just after my initiation a friend, who is still very psychic, said looking at the foto of Gurinder, this man has no powers judged from the aura.
2-a paranormal gifted person that I consulted years later said when showed the foto's of Gurinder. He is hiding something and he does not want people to figure him out. He also said that he was not a very high person but seeing the second foto commented that he was learning fast.
3-a friend that can very good tell what people feel when holding an object of the person held the foto of Gurinder in his hand and said that the person was grumbling that thins did not go like he wanted them to go. Not a saint at all he said.

Especially the last comment hit close home because all people above did know nothing about santmat but I know that Gurinder tends to send sewadars home now and then when things don't go his way and my own observation is that he is not very patient indeed and I have the ability to judge character if I may say so. I just didn't want to see it.

And now? Should I go on that he is only pointing at my higher self? Shouldn't he tell the truth to his followers? Are they better of believing? I am treated as outcast now and then by them :(

The group pressure from the satsangi's I escaped a long time ago. What is wrong with me or my christian roots? And why shouldn't I feel good about me? Why is it so important to all think alike and to be little slaves? I find the group pressure having much resemblance to a cult.

Tara,
You're actually traumatized that flies are killed in a Kothi kitchen? You sound like some of the PETA members in this country who were upset when Obama swatted a fly during a White House interview. I guess you would prefer that Sevadors ran around with small nets to catch and release the little pests that spread disease to food!I try to capture them alive in my home but sometimes I have to reach for the flyswatter during mealtime.


Nietzsche made a few remarks:

N. said: "I read that a satguru does not have to achieve the highest level possible, that makes sense to me but I've read that only a truth master can initiate so there must be a lie somewhere. If the satguru refers to your inner master that makes sense to me too."

--You repeatedly say you have "read" that so and so is true. I suggest relying more on your personal experience, reason, common sense and not on what you read. Does anything that you read about a satguru make sense to you, i.e. the supposed powers he/she has, etc.? What in your personal experience would lead you to rationally conclude that a satguru can do what you "read" about him/her. Would you believe me if I told you, without any evidence to back it up, that I know beings from the planet Venus and travel there with them regularly? I do, you know. What the master claims is far more implausible, imo.

N. said: "Especially because I've had the following experiences:
1-just after my initiation a friend, who is still very psychic, said looking at the foto of Gurinder, this man has no powers judged from the aura."

--I am a little "psychic" at times and once got the same impression about Gurinder, but don't rely on us. What do YOU feel? That's what is important.

N. said: "2-a paranormal gifted person that I consulted years later said when showed the foto's of Gurinder. He is hiding something and he does not want people to figure him out. He also said that he was not a very high person but seeing the second foto commented that he was learning fast."

--How would a person, such as a psychic, know if someone is "high"? How is "high" established? Perhaps the psychic is not "high" enough to recognize how high the master is or isn't. IMO we are all the same. Nothing higher, nothing lower. Bug, cat, human..all equal manifestations in mind or consciousness. The master is the disciple, the disciple is the master. Snake...Barrack Obama. Same thing. (Sorry, had to get in my political dig.)

N. said: "3-a friend that can very good tell what people feel when holding an object of the person held the foto of Gurinder in his hand and said that the person was grumbling that thins did not go like he wanted them to go. Not a saint at all he said."

--Why presume that a saint can't be in a bad mood sometimes? These presumptions are ideas, concepts that you have accumulated about how a supposed realized person might behave. Consider the possibility these concepts may not have anything to do with the truth of the matter, whatever that may be.

N. said: "Especially the last comment hit close home because all people above did know nothing about santmat but I know that Gurinder tends to send sewadars home now and then when things don't go his way and my own observation is that he is not very patient indeed and I have the ability to judge character if I may say so. I just didn't want to see it."

--Well, I don't think that a "realized" person necessarily must behave perfectly according to a relative set of standards. Why should they? Who knows what such a one would do?... Sing Kumbaya all day? Maybe. Throw bananas at gawkers? Maybe. Who knows?

But here you touch on something significant. YOU sensed that Gurinder's character was not very good, yet you try to deny that which was before your very eyes, your own gut feeling, because of what you were told, or read, or the opinion of others about the ways of a master. People like to say that when their guru behaves badly it is only a reflection of their own inner condition or that it was some kind of spiritual lesson, or some kind of karma had to be cleared. Blind belief in this kind of stuff, this kind of thinking, cult mentality, could get you drinking some poison kool-aid one day.

N. said:"And now? Should I go on that he is only pointing at my higher self? Shouldn't he tell the truth to his followers? Are they better of believing? I am treated as outcast now and then by them :("

--He should tell the truth to his followers but that probably would put him out of business. RSSB is a religious cult, imo. People brainwashed by the cult mindset are going to reject that which does not fit nicely into the cult mindset box...namely you. Congratulations, it appears your escape is immanent as evidenced by your statement below.

I feel that you are a nice person, too nice sometimes, and are maybe a little naive (no offense intended). You give too much of your power to others and rely on them too much...psychics, masters, bibles, heresay, scriptures can be tools but the ultimate tool is with you as this which you are, always present. Stand strong within yourself. Listen to your gut and intuition and see what is really true for you.

N said: "The group pressure from the satsangi's I escaped a long time ago. What is wrong with me or my christian roots? And why shouldn't I feel good about me? Why is it so important to all think alike and to be little slaves? I find the group pressure having much resemblance to a cult."

--There. You have answered for yourself and knew it all along, but maybe as a suggestion you should consider applying the same scrutiny to Christian beliefs as well.

It's a little uncomfortable at first but you may have to stand alone facing the vastness of infinity without a guide, without oars for your boat. But don't worry, infinity is the guide. For me, the truth is... there are no oars and infinity takes care of itself.


tucson, great comment. There's a lot of wisdom in what you said. As for me, about all I feel like adding to your sentiments is...

A link to a post on my other blog about a terrific hip-hop dance message: "Get Out of Your Mind!"
http://bit.ly/cDzjeT

And a link to a video of that performance, which I found strangely compelling. If all psychiatrists acted like this, that'd be way cool. Also, all gurus. (A short ad precedes the video.)
http://bit.ly/a2fwC7

Tara,

I agree with you, and would be suprised to see an electric fly killing machine in a supposed GIHF's kitchen. I would have expected to see some sort of natural repellant being used for the bugs. I would use a bug spray, but i'm a non-GIHF.

non-GIHF = Pickup truck driver from Texas

Testing Testing ... Does anyone have a fly killing machine for sale? If not, then Brian please delete this message. Roger

These masters are very kind and softhearted,nothing can compare with their mercy and grace.

Juan,
Would you give examples of these masters' mercy, grace and softheartedness that you have personally experienced.

mercy= a blessing which is an act of divine leniency and compassion.

grace= divine assistance given for a person's spiritual uplift and/or to aid in worldly matters such as clearing or dealing with difficult karma (life situations).

softhearted= emotionally responsive and/or sympathetic.

Thanks

Thank you very much for the interest and the replies to me. I put the former message to the world with the idea that someone might discover it some time and couldn't even find it back myself :) Anyway I found it thanks to the new blog that just appeared and I found that blog by searching in Google for something else :) Once I heard a story of a person trying to hide something under the sand only to find it exposed by the waves of the sea :)

I wanted to add something but I'm not sure if I can express myself clearly today I heared Gurinder say ' we all find it a logical thing to be humble' 'we all think it is good' 'but we can't practise it' . But I was thinking why is is so good to be humble? To follow the filosopher after whom I named myself here (Nietzsche), he researched good and evil in his book 'beyond good and evil'. Difficult material but one question was: if what we name good might be just the result of a power struggle? I mean if the guru says we have to be humble he is saying what the Christians said several centuries ago and it was meant to make them into slaves. If you are not humble you might have the guts to question and use your own intuitions (thanks for pointing that out) and thoughts as a guideline and now that is very dangerous!!! No I'm not so sure that being humble and silent is always the best attitude. There are times that we have to be very big and courageous to do the right thing.
As for the karma joke story. I heard it today again. Gurrinder said you help someone to get a better karma. I am thinking: no that is not the reason to help someone. That is not at all the reason, how can you be so self absorbed, as if your karma is all that is important. You help someone because that gives meaning to your life, not because you get payed by karma. Such a sad little attitude. Helping someone is the very reason we are here, not the accumulation of karma!!! Can you take karma with you to the heaven like money. They think so, it is like the universal currency that goes beyond matter and it is all economics in the end. But to me I think going beyond myself reaching to others perhaps even uniting with the one or the nirwana that seems to me much better than eternal happines in sach kand. Eternal happiness is very boring and we don't want it, we are not spiritual being in a body, we are 'will to life' in the restrictions of a body that turns into power, money and sex struggle. Without the body it will be another struggle. Only by going beyond yourself can you see the universal struggle and perhaps understand and change the attitude or unite with a higher transpersonal will?
A lot of thought after a long satsang today because Gurrinder is here on a tour. I'm sure my mind will be clearer in a few days.I hope.
Thanks for reading and again thanks for replying!

Tara wrote about education.

After reading a lot here I have the feeling that this is a place where one can use the mind on a positive manner. I mean some satsangi's say that the mind is evil and thinking is kal or something like that (a reasonable believe system for a labor force :)) while I have always believed that is is more spiritual to think than it is to just do things. I still think that being intellectual is a little step closer to finding the ideas behind the maya than only doing everyday labor is. But in fact there is not a big difference between acting with the hands or acting with the mind. The latter allows you to be more efficient I think, but if the labor is simple than the mind is not needed. Someone pointed out to me that if we would realy stop the mind that we would in fact turn in to animals :) I love animals but is that the spiritual state we want to be in?
Regards and thank for the clear thoughts here.

There are a lot of things I like to say and I'll try to stick to one at a time :) I have not talked about these thoughts for a long time to anyone.

I find it a wonderfull compare when you say satsangi's are like bee's and it also reminded me of a post where Gurinder is said to have killed bee's with DTT poison. I am very glad to see the man behind the guru and I understand the sometimes very stinging group dynamics that I try to avoid. I guess that being outside the believe system makes you prone to a lot of stings and nasty remarks to try and humble you. We have to take a lot of these painly remarks and leave them. I do not want to lose the connection with the people I love but I do understand that it might take a long time before they stop seeing me as evil. I hope the friendship will overcome these problems.

And my last comment that is the most confusing to myself and I think it will confuse the readers.

When I'm not near satsang or anything close to satsang I did see a lot of things happening in my life that did help me and where little miracles. I remember that there is a book about drops and oceans where a think a dr. Johnson wrote that in the end he met Charan Sing and that in his present nothing happened and Charan was a very ordinary person but that a lot of things happened in his life when he was not near him. Might this be the thing that the present guru does know a very little of what is going on in the astral planes and like?
I mean that also truth and a strange thing is that I didn't think about santmat at all anymore only occasional. Than I heard he was coming to europe and I forgot about it again. Than I came into this conversation with a friend and he again raised my doubts by holding the picture and then the whole santmat thing started to become alife again. It is still as if something inside of me is dragging me. Is that my inner self? Boy this is confusing me a lot. It makes me think that either the outside guru is playing a trick on me or that he is just some actor for a real spiritual force...
Any thougths about this. I'm walking with these thoughts a while now and think it is time to write them down.

Some thoughts again. Unfinished, maybe never will...

Gurinder said to a girls that was of the path that he might as a manner of speaking send dogs behind her. Fear argument there! I thought I am not leaving the path I am debunking it so the dogs are not real. No more fear :)

I didn't have the guts to ask if I was allowed to do an enquete research asking the satsangi's if they had spiritual experiences and after how many time initiation and under which master. I would only need to have the addresses and it would be a reasonable approach that might shed some light and even might be used to find out what makes the meditation successful. Again I didn't dare to ask.

If lets say a very small percentage of the followers have experiences and perhaps an average time to get these experiences can be established than one can make the spiritual balance with on the one hand total loss of free mind and living in a darkened fishbowl for an x number of years against a reasonable chance of enlightenment or even God realisation on the other hand. If the numbers are that most people life a life in total darkness because of the teachings and grow little than the investment is not worthwhile. I expect the latter. But without any facts it is only based on the fact that I hear from noone that they are really progressing. Getting these numbers clear might get the false marketing out of santh mat. Because it is not the story self that is bogus, the story came from some guys that might have been saints, but it is in how much of the story is truth if any. I read that Charan didn't ask how many initiates heared sound while his master did. It as af if these master only accepted the very best pupils and where out to get high numbers of succes. After Sawan even only the number of initiates seems to be important. But what a smart approach to take genuine teachings and only change them a little bit until they are complete bullshit.

Only one thing is certain for me. I will not go into the darkened fishbowl again. There are to many reasons to doubt that and I can find no reason why it would be good for me. It is not the fear in my case but it is the lack of self esteem that they have teached me and that I will let go. Gandhi said they can hurt you but they can not take your self respect unless you give it. That is what I mean. Ghandhi was humble but he had self respect and a very strong free will. He never could say he was a great saint but he did not accept any bull from the English that where treating him as a slave. And certainly I will no buy into the guild trip anymore but that is mainly a Christian problem it seems.

Nietzche, congratulations. You've made an excellent choice: truth over falsehood, courage over cowardice, freedom over bondage.

It's tough to go against the religious flow. I commend you for being strong enough to make your own decisions and follow your own intuitions.

Like you said, guilt, shame, and subservience aren't life-enhancing qualities. What we choose to do in life, and believe in, should -- as much as possible -- fill us with energy, passion, love, and enthusiasm. If it isn't, something is wrong, something is lacking.

I'm still thinking about the dogs of RS that Gurinder was talking about. Does he have the intention to organize a secret service or security branch that monitors the internet and takes (legal) measures against the trespassers? I have a history with another cult called $cientology. They do have a department of dirty trics. They do not only make lawsuits against you but they literally destroy you, your spouse, your family and anything you love or care about. They believe that anyone that criticizes the cult can be destroyed without karma for the destroyer. How sick is this? Is this close? It all started with money and power making them a criminal organization and they are almost forbidden now in many countries. The trouble is finding the witnesses and prosecutors that have enough courage to stand up against them. I have stood up as an outsider. I have lost my job my health and most of my friends. I have said that there were much healthier people to criticize them but those people all kept silent so therefore I see it as my job and I don't care about the outcome. RS didn't help me but letting fear rule my live is not an option. However we are fighting anonymous nowadays and that is to protect our relatives, not our selfs. Hope this is not the future for RS because we will not be silenced...

I want to add a little to the former post.
The cult of Scientology has decided to make a first strike against me after I was only mildly questioning their teachings on the internet. They used an anonymous internet route to threaten me with voodoo curses and sending me video's from youtube about fear and psychoses that would be coming my way. They used all the information that I naively gave them through the internet discussions.
Now you might say after suffering such a blow that made me ill and as a result lose my job and some friends, I would be silenced? But I reasoned that if I would be silenced after all that than the whole suffering would have been meaningless. Therefore I kept on criticizing although I was very afraid at times but I learned that fear is something you should not runaway from.
Now S is a very dark cult based on satanic teaching from Crowley but that is another subject or another time :) It made me aware of the dynamics that I see in RS too. You might argue that in RS it will not go so far but then again who knows.

Tucson,

Charan Singh used to say ..The masters are very kind and softhearted,nothing can compare with their mercy and grace. I,m sorry I should have putten it clearer.

Though I am initiated and usually attend the satsangs, I have no experiences at all of these masters mercy and grace, neither I have desired to nor I have devoted any time in Bhajan and Simran, as I broke the vow the very first day I got initiated.

Well, Juan. You and my wife are in the same boat. She meditated only a few times and not for very long, certainly not 2.5 hrs. She couldn't care less.

Nothing wrong with meditating if that's what one is inclined to do, but these vows put a tremendous pressure on you if you take them seriously, and guilt if you blow it once in awile. This isn't healthy as we are human and do blow it once in awile. No big deal, but not in the mind of the compulsive vow taker.

I would have a little more respect for RSSB if the vows were guiding principles and not inflexible admonitions. Taking life as it comes and going with the flow are guiding principles for me. Sometimes there just isn't any rennetless cheese available...

At a restaurant: "I'll have a grilled cheese sandwich and an iced tea. Oh, by the way, hold the cheese."

After reading all these discussion oh sorry i would say fights coz i think that is the most appropriate answer for Mr Brian's and my other brothers comments.Its my first visit to this site and my first chance to read all of this.It is good to know that there are people in this world who still cares so much about the true and lie good and bad.Right path or wrong path.I appericiate it really from the bottom of my heart.My only question is, are we the one to decide?,or to guide others what is true path,Mr Brian and my other brothers first look back in your life, let me put it in this way let us all look in our life,how truthfull,satisfied,honest and right we are,let us see inside how much we all follow the saying of the god and teachings of the books we have mentioned in this blog.I would say none of us,I dont know about you guys can accept this truth but I can,you all just making efforts to look other's beliefs down and false,is that we all have learned from our religion and beliefs.Is that is what written in RSSB Books or Budhism,christianity or any other book.I am personally a follower of RSSB Beas and my Master never ever told us anything about being disrespectful to any religion,its God's wish to guide someone to him,we cant even guide ourself, it will be his God'd wish,so who are you and how can you guide someone.Guru says Religions are for us to create an environment to clear our minds so that we can begin the journey towards him, by Meditation but reading to all these comments thats religions are not for us but We are for Religions, this blog look like we all are fighting like cattles and trying to prove a point,I ask a question who are you to comment on other there is an old saying if you point one finger on others rest four will be pointed towards you.If you feel that a specific path is right for you and by all means go for it.But dont think others would agree with you,beacuse in your journey to God you will go alone only your faith your guru will be with you.So if you think you are right and keep it to yourself.What are you trying to prove by screaming at others that you are right,Remember an empty vessel makes more sound.You can lie to everyone, Mr Brian and my rest of friends,but cannot lie to yourself,if your belief is giving you the most charismatic and spiritual, divine feeling and is taking you closer to God.Then I would say thats the best for you.Why argue with others,That RSSB is not right or Budhism not right and so on.Well by the look at discussions it gives a feeling that people who are writting more here about being them on true and cricisiong like mr Brian is that they are still looking for right path and not trusting their beliefs, because if you are trusting and if u think you are right why argue.Rest leave to your God and master he will guide everyone else coz we all believe our master our God loves eveyone everyone is equal for him, so he will guide everyone to his path why you argue others will understand when their time comes., but it seems like people like my elder brother Brian there fight is with nobody else but themselves.To be honest I respect every place associated to God regardless any religion that that i have been taught by my master at RSSB.Yes thats a different thing that I might not be knowing in depth every religion, because we all need to stick to our belief if we think that is what we need and it has shown things to us.so why wondering anywhere else if i got what i need at RSSB.Wondering anywhere else not only for me but for anyone will be like I dont believe in my guru,Which can never be the case in my life. But my guru says they all are one whenever in (Satsang) his teachings he always take examples from every single religion in a positive manner and treat all of them with great respect,He never use the term that I say something he always says "they" and They here means GOD,which he said is in every one.I agree there are people who tends to show off more then what they are they claims they know more,but on what basis you relate to RSSB Master these kind of people are in every religion so people talking to people dose'nt represent what master says.I ask Mr Brian and all my other brothers who have been criticising RSSB that you been writting your questions and comments here on this site, and hoping that you will get your answers.Honestly ask yourself is this site is the best place and the only place to get your answers as the people with whom you are arguing they are in the same boat as you are they have shown this by writting their comments mr Brian if you have any question visit the place you questioned about ask the Master you questioned about,he can give you the best answer,Its in the same way if I ask something about you, the best person to answer would be Just you MR BRIAN not the people or relatives who know you or any internet site.And then see if you get your answers.In the end I would like to say I apologise if I have hurt anyone's feeling i might be not hat old as you all might be but this is my understanding of RSSB and for any other religion.And if I ever had any ouestion I ask my Master not discuss on internet site like Church or Churchless. Guru can answer you questions not other people sailing in the same boat as you are.Because they know as much as u know about the journey youa are in.But it was good to know about you all guys.Take care Radhasoami ji.

I just want to ask mr richard why is he so angry with his life his whole article i read it never shows hate towards anyone but his hate towards himself,it look like he has been alone in his life and a lost soul,anyways god bless him and may guide him towards right path.Mr richard it seems all your internal senses are shut please brother donttake it offensively, but u can never listen,talk feel the power and blessing of the Guru i wont say justat RSSB but anywhere in the world with your physibal senses it has to be your inner senses it seems they are totally shut and lost somewhere dont try to find the truth it is inside you and will come to you,dont tey to see things by creating a wall between you and other first be open to everyone's suggestion and beliefs then you can feel something.And you said you spent 21days at RSSB.I would say i dont know you were there or not, but all i can say ur physical body might be there but not your soul,it might sound rubbish to you as i can assume by reading to your article.All I can say if u have any questions ask the Master Bbaji first then decide rather than making these type of comment brother.Take care god bless.Dont behave like a one angry kid be sensible think before you speak.Talk human

Tara,

This is very good,

"I simply close my eyes, take deep breaths and think about something positive. It works for me and sometimes 10 minutes is all I need. How can bliss be time-bound ? IMO, a combination of morality, integrity and compassion in everyday life is better than 2.5 hours of forced focus-on-the-satguru time."


Tucson,

The term,

"compulsive vow taker" is very interesting. Being 'compulsive' regarding religious and spiritual vows is possibly a root cause for much harm. This 'compulsive' behavior could be a thread topic in itself.

Upinder Singh writes:

"Its my first visit to this site and my first chance to read all of this."

-- are you sure about that? i vaguely remember your name posted being here before. but i could be mistaken.

"the true and lie good and bad. Right path or wrong path. [...] My only question is, are we the one to decide, or to guide others what is true path"

-- if not us, then who? each person should decide for themselves what is the right path or the wrong path. but it sounds like you are suggesting that people should not think for themselves, that they should let others (sants and gurus?) tell them what to think and what to believe. imo, that is immature and very foolish.

"let us all look in our life,how truthfull,satisfied,honest and right we are,let us see inside how much we all follow the saying of the god and teachings of the books"

-- why should we do that? we do not need to do that. i do not need to follow the "saying of the god" or the "teachings of the books". you obviously have ideas that you want others to follow. but thats not any of your business.

I would say none of us [...] can accept this truth [...] from our religion and beliefs [...] what written in RSSB Books or Budhism,christianity or any other book."

-- no, that is not right. i do not have to "accept" any so-called "truth" from any sort of "religion and beliefs".

"I am personally a follower of RSSB Beas and my Master never ever told us anything about being disrespectful to any religion,its God's wish to guide someone to him,we cant even guide ourself, it will be his God'd wish,so who are you and how can you guide someone."

-- that is only YOUR belief. it is not the belief of other people. all you are saying here is that YOU can not guide yourself. however, i can guide myself. and i can think and say whatever i want. it seems that you want to tell people what they can and cannot do. you have a cult mentality.

"Guru says Religions are for us to create an environment to clear our minds so that we can begin the journey towards him, by Meditation"

-- i do not agree, and i do not share those beliefs. i do not believe in gurus, or religions.

"I ask a question who are you to comment on other there is an old saying if you point one finger on others rest four will be pointed towards you."

-- yes... so why don't you apply that to yourself? you are the one who is pointing your finger at other people here. you are the one who is commenting on others. YOU are doing exactly what YOU are critricising others for. do you see what a hypocrite you are?

"If you feel that a specific path is right for you and by all means go for it.But dont think others would agree with you"

-- yes, so why don't you practice that yourself? why do you come here and tell other people what they should and should not do?

"So if you think you are right and keep it to yourself."

-- then why don't YOU do that? why don't YOU "keep it to yourself"?? you are doing everyting that you tell others not to do. so you are nothing but a hypocrite.

"What are you trying to prove by screaming at others"

-- no one is "screaming" at anyone here. upinder singh, i think you are a bit confused. i think that you donlt ahve any idea what this blog is about, or what other people think and say.

"You can lie to everyone, Mr Brian and my rest of friends"

-- people here are not lying. no one is lying (except for an occasional troll). you are imagining things. i think you are a very confused religious-cult-minded person.

"Why argue with others,That RSSB is not right"

-- no one here is arguing, except YOU. people are simply discussing various issues. but you gave a problem with that. you want to suppress free thinking and free speach. you want people to conform to your beliefs. you want to impose your beliefs on others. that is what you are doing here.

"Rest leave to your God and master he will guide everyone"

-- that is only YOUR belief.

"coz we all believe our master our God loves eveyone everyone is equal for him, so he will guide everyone to his path"

-- that is YOUR belief in YOUR "master", not ours.

"we all need to stick to our belief if we think that is what we need and it has shown things to us."

-- then why don't you just do that?? ...and quit telling other people what to do, or what not to do.

"why wondering anywhere else if i got what i need at RSSB."

-- what then what did you get "at RSSB"?? i myself don't need anything from RSSB, and RSSB has nothing to offer me.

"I ask Mr Brian and all my other brothers who have been criticising RSSB that you been writting your questions and comments here on this site, and hoping that you will get your answers."... "ask yourself is this site is the best place and the only place to get your answers"

-- that is an incorrect assumption. i can not speak for other people, but i am not seeking any such "answers".

"the people with whom you are arguing they are in the same boat as you are"

-- are they?? i don't think so. different people have different points of view.

"this is my understanding of RSSB and for any other religion.And if I ever had any ouestion I ask my Master not discuss on internet site like Church or Churchless."

-- then WHY are you here?? if your master is so great, then what are you doing here?? (besides trying to tell other people what to think and do)

"Guru can answer you questions not other people"

-- WRONG. (a) i don't have any questions; and (b) i don't need gurus; and (c) i can think for myself.

"Because they know as much as u know about the journey you"

-- wrong again. everyone must learn in their own way.

"if u have any questions ask the Master Babaji first"

-- your "Babaji" has no answers. and he is the last person anyone should ever ask. i just can't believe how utterly stupid and gullible RSSB followers are (imo). you are pathetic.


You are full of pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo. Your so-called "instructions" are crap. You are the one who is sitting there like an idiot. And your "God" is a myth and a lie. You are nothing but a peddler of lies and bullshit.


TaO did u ever meet ur god.. the proof u have about ur god we radha soamis have it to..

Cause ur arguing with dirty language is no use....

sarah, at least you've learned humility, forebearance, gentleness, and kindness from your Radha Soami experiences (smile....).

Dear All,

I am a true beleiver that ignorance is bliss. Please if you have anything to say regarding anyone, I would first challenge you to experience first hand the things you are critising. If anyone here has actually been to a satsang or had been in the presence of any of the radhaswoami teachers, maybe then your view would be a rounded one. I challenge anyone who has a negative aspect of radhaswoami to first put their criticisms and views infront of the leader, for it is he who is truly representative of the belief, not people who think they know it. Sadly that may even include the satsangi's who remain trapped in cultural differentiation and material discrimination. Love to God and all his creation.

"....criticisms and views infront of the leader, for it is he who is truly representative of the belief,....."

---So, the leader is a true representative of the belief? And, the follower of such would be a well rounded believer. Well ok.

"2 reasons I left.1) not one person of the radha-soami satsang beas membership, who I have talked to, has 'gone within'. It simply doesn't exist."
quote ex satsangi

Your correct. Most people just see some light and hear some sound. Some times the left side of brain produces the delusion of other beings or a higher self.

To my experience in many RS groups,
I can say with a certainty that ever
single person I ever met that claimed
to fly in the inner planes was nuts.

I mean really nuts. They needed psychological help and their lives
were horribly messed up.

They are true schizophrenics, or at least
were boderline before initiation.

That's why a 'good' Guru is always nuts.

In America, the insane asylums are full
of people whom beieve they are God, or
talk to Him.

It is all self induced insanity.

I would like to hear Brian say something about this.

Mike, I agree that there are a lot seriously disturbed people in religious organizations. But there also are a lot of seriously disturbed people everywhere.

I suspect that those who are prone to magical thinking and delusions seek out places where magical thinking and delusions are encouraged -- just as alcoholics feel more comfortable in bars than in a health club.

It's a matter of degree, I guess. Each of us inhabits our own strange little world that makes perfect sense to us, because it is all we know. If I could step inside someone else's head for even a moment, while preserving my own sense of reality, I'd probably react with "What the fuck?!!! Who made this crap up?!!!"

Well, the other person did. Just like I do. Just like everyone does. But most people manage to perceive reality in a fashion that is close enough to the human consensus to be able to function well in the world. Some people get so far into their own subjective psyche, though, as to lose touch with that common ground of human experience.

Which includes the weirded-out types you mention. It is indeed strange that the same behavior that would be diagnosed as "sick" if the person was outside a religious organization can be acclaimed as an elevated spiritual/mystical experience within one.

Like a person ignoring relationships with family members in favor of sitting by themselves in a dark room for hours on end, or hearing sounds and voices that no one else does (and believing that they are messages from someone who controls their destiny).

There was a time I thought RS guru was smart enough to stay out the worship business. But I changed my opinion he is now deluded in thinking he has advanced to being a real omnipotent and god creature. In time his opinion will change back again. How sad for the people that worship him now because they will fall in the trap he is digging for himself. Worshipping lead to nothing but being used.
Change your hearth end change your mind. If you meditate than let it not be on the physical guru or his photo and you don't need the darshan. If you meditate the sound might look like your unkle or jesus. Who cares.

i believe in god thats true but there is NO REAL GURU.accordind to me radha swoami is fake.Y they make deras money.the donations they get are all black money.thee gurus are fake they are lies.they play with peoples emotions there feelings they know how to play with peoples minds.real gurus donot make deras and all.real gurus like sai baba shirdi wala dint made deras temples dint gave sasangs and all that F**k stuff.i am completely ruined by this RADHASWOAMI.my husband is busy with seva and all.he close shop to do seva.these fake gurus earn so much money u kw.do any1 ask them dat money is black or white.wat a fuck?and lakhs of people believe them the seva done by sevadaar is truly beneficial to him..fake radhasoamis BRAINWASH people minds.if they dont get sevadar they have to pay high salaries to servants for doing all dat work.all 5 things in rssb are fake too.u say who follows it.these gurus take name of god and fool people around.the people who follow them are corrupt they have double standards.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sukhbir-pays-secret-visit-to-dera-beas/748086/0

Sukhbir pays ‘secret visit’ to Dera Beas

Sukhbir Singh Badal, Dera Radha Soami, secret visit

Thu Feb 10 2011, 22:46 hrs

With Deputy Chief Minister Sukhbir Singh Badal paying a ‘secret visit’ to Dera Radha Soami
in Beas, about 40 km from here, on Wednesday, rumour mills are working overtime to gauge the
motive of the “unplanned trip”. Not part of his official tour, Sukhbir’s visit to the dera
is being linked to the next Assembly elections due in February 2012. According to sources in
the party, he suddenly asked his security staff and district officials to plan his “personal
visit” to the dera, where he remained with dera head Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon for more than one hour.


“He was alone when he was meeting Baba. It was a personal visit,” said top sources in the
administration, adding that they were not aware what transpired at the meeting. Several
political leaders, including UPA chief Sonia Gandhi and BJP supermo L K Advani, had in
the past visited the dera that has a huge following and influence in this area, apparently
to garner support for their respective parties.


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