Did I see God in first class?

I may have seen God in first class. The first class section of an Alaska Airlines flight from San Francisco to Palm Springs, to be exact. Or, maybe I didn’t.

In the early ‘90s I was traveling from Portland to attend a “bhandara," or spiritual gathering, of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) devotees in Palm Springs. After changing planes in San Francisco I found myself in a right side aisle seat in the coach row directly behind first class, idly watching other passengers board.

A middle-aged Indian gentleman caught my eye. Bearded, he was wearing a white turban and blue jeans. His first class seat was across the aisle and one row up from mine. Before sitting down he glanced around the rear of the plane and our eyes briefly met. Then he took his seat and I returned to perusing a magazine. Nothing special seemed to have happened.

But it had, to quite a few other people sitting near me. For they were Bay Area RSSB members who also were heading to Palm Springs for the bhandara where the satguru (true guru) was to speak. And that Indian gentleman sitting a few feet away from me was the satguru—Master Gurinder Singh.

I began to hear whispers. “That’s him.” “The master is sitting in first class.” “I don’t believe it.” I hadn’t recognized Gurinder Singh, even though I’d seen him before at a bhandara in Vancouver, B.C. Fervent RSSB devotees consider the satguru to be God in human form, much as Jesus is regarded by devout Christians.

The difference being, Jesus is dead and Gurinder Singh was sitting alive and well in an Alaska Airlines first class seat. Imagine that a Christian gets on a plane and sees Jesus seated a few rows ahead of him and you’ll have a pretty good idea of the atmosphere on the flight to Palm Springs—among the RSSB disciples, at least.

I got mildly caught up in the excitement. However, even back then, when I was much more involved—psychologically and otherwise—with RSSB than I am now, I didn’t consider that seeing the satguru was a big deal. And until I made the connection between “Indian man wearing a turban” and “Master Gurinder Singh,” seeing him wasn’t even a small deal.

For I didn’t feel a hint of anything special until the disciples around me started up the “It’s him!” whispering campaign. Wouldn’t you think that if a person truly is God in human form, such would be obvious? Not just to those who already believe in the person’s divinity, but to everyone—believer and unbeliever alike. Jesus, of course, suffered the same lack of recognition. If his purported godliness had been transparently apparent, impossible to deny, by the time he died Jesus would have had a lot more than a handful of followers.

Psychedelic researchers speak of the importance of set and setting in determining the nature of a LSD (or similar drug) experience. “Set” includes the personality of the individual; “setting” includes cultural views about what is real. If someone with a devotional frame of mind joins a group like RSSB that affirms the divinity of a guru, then this person may very well see God sitting in first class. I, on the other hand, just saw an Indian man.

My wife, Laurel, joined me in Palm Springs a few days later. She was more interested in shopping and sunshine than attending the bhandara, but I did talk her into going to two RSSB meetings. At one of them she got to sit in the front row, just a few feet away from the stage where Gurinder Singh spoke and answered questions—a highly favored spot to devotionally-minded disciples.

Afterwards Laurel said to me, “He just seemed like a regular person.” I couldn’t argue with her. I believed then, and still do, that Master Gurinder Singh is uncommonly intelligent, insightful, well-spoken, charismatic, and inspiring. But I had no reason then, nor any now, to assert that he is God in human form. I’ve stopped being concerned with the level of divinity someone else possesses, and now am almost exclusively focused on getting in touch with my own hypothesized higher self.

I understand the allure of what Hindus call bhakti marg, salvation through love and devotion. Though much more inclined to the spiritual path of jnana (knowledge through meditation), I’ve got my bhakti tendencies and have been known to shed a tear at the thought or sight of a guru. But that was then. I believe that I’m wiser now.

Wiser, because I’ve concluded that if I have to think or emote my way to reality, this isn’t a reality worth having. When I let loose of an object, gravity takes it to the ground regardless of whether I’m thinking “Gravity is great” or feeling “I love gravity so much!” Gravity, like all the other laws of nature, just does what it does—automatically.

If there is a spiritual dimension to reality, it makes sense to me that higher laws of the cosmos also will operate naturally and spontaneously. When my inner vision is clear, I’ll experience them without effort, just as I open my eyes in the morning and effortlessly see a world guided by physical laws.

As I quoted Philip K. Dick in the course of describing the Church of the Churchless symbol, “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” This probably is my favorite spiritual one-liner. In my opinion that single sentence, when properly understood, contains the entire essence of volumes of profound mystical literature that fills my bookcases.

If I have to believe in God in order to experience God, then that experience is of my own belief, not of God.

I’d be overjoyed to see God in human form. Heck, in any form. A formless form would be fine also. But I want this seeing to be unmistakable, crystal clear, impossible to be doubted. I don’t want to substitute imagination for the real thing.

Maybe I saw God in first class. Maybe. Maybe isn’t good enough. I want to be sure that God is more than, as the song goes, “just a slob like one of us.” Show me. Then I’ll believe, not before.

Comments

[Laura Griffiths]

Forgive my presumptions, but it sounds like you expect God to "play by your rules" so to speak? Is this true? Are you saying that even if that first class guru WAS God in the flesh, that, because you didn't perceive him to be, he therefore isn't? I don't mean to get on my soapbox here, but I would never, ever put any human expectations on something powerful enough to create Universe. What if God is in everyone's flesh? What if God permeates every molecule in the cosmos? How would we all live our lives if we assumed God was everywhere at all times? Approached everything and everyone with childlike innocence? I don't mean to be or sound harsh, I'm just very curious.

[Brian]

Laura, good point: Yes, even though I don't recognize something, it might be visible to others with a different or clearer vision. What I was trying to get at in this post was just what you said. Human expectations shouldn't be put on God, a.k.a. the universal creative power.

My basic experience with people who claim that the master (or anyone else) is God in human form is that this claim is based on a belief or expectation, not on unequivocal direct experience. When you take away the thought they have about the person--"He's God!"--the naked reality isn't compellingly true.

A beautiful flower is plainly visible whether or not you believe in it. A God-man or God-woman isn't. The proof of this is that not everyone, or, really, very few, perceive the person's divinity. You have to believe he or she is God before you see that he or she is God.

There are exceptions, of course. I've talked with a few people who didn't expect much from seeing a guru and then were blown away by him at first sight. But they didn't go so far as to say, "I saw God."

I like your comment about approaching everything with childlike innocence. Myself, I take this to mean being like the child who said, "The Emperor has no clothes." A child tells it like she sees it. What I object to is people claiming that they see something in a person that isn't really seeable. They make more out of the person than is really there. That doesn't seem honest to me.

[aapharm]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20001015/spectrum/main3.htm

check this link for article and as well as nice photo.

[Randy]

"Listen Jesus
I don't like what I see
All I ask is that you listen to me
And remember
I've been your right hand man all along
You have set them all on fire
They think they've found the new Messiah
And they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong

I remember when this whole thing began
No talk of God then, we called you a man
And believe me
My admiration for you hasn't died
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied"

Heaven on their Minds—Jesus Christ Superstar by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[Brian]

aapharm, thanks for the link to the article about Baba Gurinder Singh. In my post I substituted that link for the small, indistinct photo of the Master I found elsewhere (Google didn't direct me to The Tribune article).

I agree with just about everything said in the article. Baba Ji does indeed have a "radiant and magnetic personality." My problem isn't with Baba Ji, but with disciples who put him on a pedestal that is higher than I think the Master himself wants to rest on.

[aapharm]

R u liberated? Do you who is lord !have u seen him yet.
If yes then show us right now or pack up from this blog. Also read the honest views left by Et and Randy. Also I think no body wants to waste the precious energy in discussion with you on the issueless issues.

[steve]

Brian,
I don't know if I saw God, but ... I don't know what I saw. No one would believe me if I tried to explain it. All I can say is aside from what I saw, I felt waves of, well, sounds "cliche" but I don't know how to describe it other than a being, a source, or fountain of unending love for all things. It felt feminine. Years later I read up on Kabbalism, and there was a word..."Shekinah," I think,... so now I think of the kabbalistic term for the feminine aspect of God. That's what it felt like to me. But what do I know. Only felt it once. But I am forever changed.

[Netemara]

Brian,

I just watched Tupac's "Resurrection" film and I suggest it to others because of its deep honesty. But at one point he makes a good point that I've heard before. He said that just one year before he made it big he went into the exact same nightclub and he could not even get a date or anyone to look at him. After he was "recognized" as an artist, he said when he returned to this place, a whispering campaign started around the room and when girls would point him out to another girl and say "There's Tupac" they would both light up and he would get the dates and the numbers he was after.

This sounds familiar because it is exactly what Gurinder said when he took the Gaddi, that no one would have given him a second look before when he lived in Spain among those Satsangis. I also went to Palm Springs and it was a great experience all around. I am not over the moon about Gurinder, but I do believe in the science of Sant Mat based on experience.

Net

[Netemara]

You are not talking Sant Mat but garbled stuff. Sant Mat IS, I repeat IS a science. The path you describe is Bhakti Yoga, and Zen, you don't seem to know what that is either. The comments about Gurinder in first class were rather Zen IMHO.

Zen is formless, boundless and limitless and cannot be said to be a science. If you want Zen then go to a Zen site.

Netemara

[marg]

Hi. I liked your short article. I was initiated as a disciple of Maharaj Charan Singh many years ago as a tenager and had opportunity to see him many times at the Dera in India. I felt the experience was akin to group hypnosis of highly susceptible people. I still puzzle about the experience today and regard the group as having many cult like features. The group was particularly appealing to my husband who had a tendency towards mental illness.Unfortunately some of the unusual beliefs of satsangis masked his symptoms and he didn't get help when he needed to. I feel very sad about it all.

[rajesh kumar]

i m from india i love baba ji i fell some time good but now m going back

[sapient]

Marg,
you wrote: "The group was particularly appealing to my husband who had a tendency towards mental illness. Unfortunately some of the unusual beliefs of satsangis masked his symptoms and he didn't get help when he needed to."

I can completely relate with you. And thats what I have been trying to tell everybody in this blog that RSSB is making people scrupulous with unusual beliefs and telling them that they have to follow those beliefs to be an ideal satsangi. Every newsletter from Vince Sevarese is full of this crap. Poor disciple filled with Bhakti gets scared that if they won't follow those beliefs or vows, they will have to bear the wrath of their guru or it will be bad karma and they become anxious day by day till they get real anxiety disorders.
And God help those who already have tendencies for mental disease especially OCD (like my relative) and if such people join this sect, this sect helps in increasing their wrong beliefs and making their life hell. It is like giving drugs to already addicted person.

I hope your husband is doing better, my relative is on serious medication and is trying to improve but once in while an occasional meeting with other satsangi brings back his beliefs and his medication dose has to be increased.

[tao]

Sapient,

If I may kindly suggest that you might try to get your mentally ill relative to just casually chant a little Hare Krsna now and again. The potency of chanting Hare Krsna will immediately begin to bring Sri Krsna's grace and mercy, and will help to bring some real spiritual healing, peace, and happiness to your relative and to relieve the bewilderment and anxiety that RSSB doctrines, beliefs, and and influences have caused.

But don't try to get your relative to change or immediately drop RS... Just let the process go very naturally and just try to get them to casually chant or sing the Hare Krsna mahamantra in addition to their regular RS practices. And if you do it together with them, it may actually be even easier for them. Just engaging in this simple and joyful activity will begin to really help to heal your relative's mental troubles and delusions, and the anxieties that have been induced by the RSSB cult. Good luck.

Hare Krsna

[catherine]

Tao
I am watching with interest! Since you have come out of the closet, how do you rate your templeless status? Needless to say, Hare Krishna has fabulous temples in abundance. Are we to expect from you now onwards that the hare krshna mantra is the panacea for all ills and uncertainties? Sounds like hard core church/ temple to me.

[tao]

Catherine,

I have never been in a "closet"... except maybe to get my coat of armour before the joust.

"how do you rate your templeless status?"

I never had any "temple" status to begin with. And except for the past seven years while living in my ashram, I have always been a wandering tantric-yogi-siddha-sadhu kind of Baba, not any kind of "temple" denizen.

"Hare Krishna has fabulous temples in abundance."

So what? I have been to all sorts and kinds of temples in India, the Himalayas, and elsewhere, and not just Krishna temples. But I don't hang out at temples. I am not interested in temples.

"the hare krshna mantra is the panacea for all ills and uncertainties"

Perhaps, but that can really only been known through direct experience.

"Sounds like hard core church/ temple to me."

Fyi, chanting Hare Krsna does not necessarily have, or need to have anything to do with temples or churches.

[Catherine]

Tao, churchless/( ref also to temple/ mosque etc) in the title of this blog refers to not having a specific orientation towards a belief system. You have a very specific one.

[tao]

No, I don't have any such "belief system". You are intentionally and maliciously misrepresenting me. I have nothing more to discuss with people of your ilk.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

My problem isn't with Baba Ji, but with disciples who put him on a pedestal that is higher than I think the Master himself wants to rest on.
Posted by: Brian | June 14, 2005 at 03:43 PM

clearly speaks of your unsuccessfulness in sant mat even after spending 2.5 hours of sumiran daily for 30 years along with observing vows of sant mat. More than Master you were concerned about His disciples who constitute, in majority, worldly things seekers rather than the master. I was initiated in October 1981 and since then I have witnessed very many vicissitudes in spiritual as well as mundane life. Yet, the path has to be followed; neither the institution nor its organizers. After initiation, the link is between master and the disciple alone.

Kindly ignore this post, if it hurts you by any means.

[Tucson Bob]

We are told in Sant Mat not to be concerned with results. It is up to Mater's grace and our karma. It is said spiritual progress could occur at any time, or maybe as long as four lifetimes. Now there is a comforting thought..no worries, in four lifetimes we are sure to be in Sach Khand, only 500,000,000 more repetitions of simran to go and three more birth and dying processes. No big deal in the overall scheme of things. We should just be happy to do this robotic repetition endlessly to the end of our days in the hope of some unknown/imaginary/hypothetical fairy-tale end. In the meantime we have the pleasure of sitting in satsang listening to the same old tired dogma we've heard hundreds of times before, gazing at the master while carrying dirt on our heads, and asking the waiter if there's lard in the beans. All the master requires is our devotion. What has he done to earn it?..propagate a fairy tale and walk around in sparkling clean punjabis?

Just thought I'd try playing the role of a sarcastic ex-satsangi. Usually I don't care.

[D.J.]

"and asking the waiter if there's lard in the beans"-T. Bob, as a strict vegetarian myself, I long ago stopped eating in non-vegetarian restaurants for 2 reasons:1) I got tired of asking that question to the staff about every possible food item that might contain animal products. 2)I got 'burned' a couple of times when I got served chicken or pork in supposedly vegetarian dishes!(Once I threw a greasy springroll that I bit into that contianed pieces of pork at the wall and stormed out!)

[Rakesh Bhasin]

"THERE were once three little butterfly brothers, one white, one red, and one yellow. They played................and found the door wide open." may be read in the following link.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=OlcGood.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=30&division=div2
Those who have been initiated by whatever master of any so called cult or organization will have have the benefit of it depending upon the level of the Master. It is not a hearsay but my own experience with the people lying on the death bed.

" GOLD CAN NOT TARNISH, IRON CAN NOT BE EATEN BY TERMITES; WHATEVR SORT OF BE AN INITIATE OF A MASTER YOU ARE, WILL HAVE A LASTING BENEFIT".

because at the time of death, the attention of the initiate goes nowhere but to his master alone.

[Tucson Bob]

Rakesh Bhasin wrote:

"Those who have been initiated by whatever master of any so called cult or organization will have have the benefit of it depending upon the level of the Master. It is not a hearsay but my own experience with the people lying on the death bed...because at the time of death, the attention of the initiate goes nowhere but to his master alone."

This, no doubt, occurs especially after a life of devotion to a particular master. It may help the person die peacefully. But how can we, as objective viewers of the dying person, know the reality or eternal value of what they are experiencing? Is it an illusion? How can we know?

If I spend my life worshiping Hershey Chocolate Bars there is a good chance I will think about and have visions of Hershey Chocolate Bars at the time of death. Just because one has visions at death of a master does not mean this vision has any more value than that of a Hershey Bar.

Belief in a master requires us to suspend reason and have faith. This is one's decision if they wish to do so. But they might want to keep in mind:

The Truth is with the knower, but no one can know if the knower knows it or not until they know it themselves.

In other words: The Truth may be with a master, but no one can know if the master knows the Truth or not until they know it themselves.

The Truth is yourself. You are the master.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Tucson Bob,
I thank you for your comments. I am glad indeed to observe the rare clarity in your thoughts. You have very clearly stated that "If I spend my life worshiping Hershey Chocolate Bars there is a good chance I will think about and have visions of Hershey Chocolate Bars at the time of death. Just because one has visions at death of a master does not mean this vision has any more value than that of a Hershey Bar."

It reminds me an old lady visualising gold jewellary at the time of death and asking her relatives that her master had brought a basket of jewellary.

It all depends upon one's intensity of association in life time.
http://www.sikhs.org/english/eg1.htm
There is vertually nothing soon after our birth that we have learnt without a teacher/ master. Either sombody has taught it or it is an out come of what we have learnt with others help.
I am unable to comment upon first disciple/first master on the earth, if somebody asks me.

You wrote:"In other words: The Truth may be with a master, but no one can know if the master knows the Truth or not until they know it themselves".

I can only narrate, Kabir's verse in this regard.

Kabir my mind has become pure like holy water;and now even God is also after me and says kabir, kabir.

As nothing on this earth can be learnt without a teacher/ master, so also the spiritulism can not be learnt without a teacher.
It is the law of the land.

Above all, I will say that in order to encourage ourself, we encourage others. And I am no exception in this regard.

I, once again compliment you for the clarity of thoughts you carry.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Tucson Bob wrote:
"Belief in a master requires us to suspend reason and have faith. This is one's decision if they wish to do so. But they might want to keep in mind":

If a teacher/ master can not resolve the doubts of his discples, he does not deserve to be called a teacher/ master.....He should be shunned at once. If you can not find a teacher/ master of your choice in your lifetime, the struggle to find one must continue. For without a teacher/ master nothing can be learnt. At least, I can not conceive it. I repeat that it is law of the land.
I am sorry as i could not respond in one go.

with love

[Tucson Bob]

Rakesh Bhasin:

Thanks for the compliment. You are a gentleman.

You wrote: "Kabir my mind has become pure like holy water;and now even God is also after me and says kabir, kabir."

Many people love and respect Kabir, and he is respected as a wise master who taught the Truth. Even so, how can we know what Kabir really experienced? How can we know his teachings are the Truth except by his say-so? I am not challenging the Truth of your belief. I am just trying to show that it is faith. It may or may not be truth.

A teacher of art can show you painting techniques and you can verify their skill by observing their work.

How many masters are able to show you their realization? He can talk about it, teach about it, but can he show it to you? Does he speak in theories and beliefs that can't be seen? Does he say, "have faith, this may take a lifetime or more to acheive." What if at the end of your life, you discover your master was false?

Do what your heart tells you, but be honest with yourself.

[tao]

Rakesh wrote:

"Those who have been initiated by whatever master of any so called cult or organization will have have the benefit of it depending upon the level of the Master. It is not a hearsay but my own experience with the people lying on the death bed. "WHATEVR SORT OF BE AN INITIATE OF A MASTER YOU ARE, WILL HAVE A LASTING BENEFIT" because at the time of death, the attention of the initiate goes nowhere but to his master alone."

That's utter hogwash, imo.

[tao]

Rakesh wrote:

"There is vertually nothing soon after our birth that we have learnt without a teacher/ master. Either sombody has taught it or it is an out come of what we have learnt with others help. As nothing on this earth can be learnt without a teacher/ master, so also the spiritulism can not be learnt without a teacher. It is the law of the land."

I absolutley diasgree. The notion that everything MUST BE and CAN ONLY BE learned from a "teacher/master" is ridiculously false. It is absurd. I and millions of ther people have learned much through direct experience without any such "teacher/master". You must have been seriously brain-washed by Sant Mat.

[tao]

Rakesh wrote:

"For without a teacher/ master nothing can be learnt. At least, I can not conceive it. I repeat that it is law of the land."

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are clearly brain-washed by pseudo-spiritual dogma.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Tao,

I bow before the exalted state of your mind.
Trace back your own life history, you would reach to know somebody has taught you to walk, to talk, to read, to write........Let us give them their due credit.

Hare Krisn

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Tucson Bob:

It touchs my heart to observe your sincerity and the warmth that you emanate in writing the comments. Thanks for it.

You wrote: "Many people love and respect Kabir, and he is respected as a wise master who taught the Truth. Even so, how can we know what Kabir really experienced? How can we know his teachings are the Truth except by his say-so? I am not challenging the Truth of your belief. I am just trying to show that it is faith. It may or may not be truth".
"A teacher of art can show you painting techniques and you can verify their skill by observing their work".

If you read their original work, one finds their results on the inner journey; clearly stating the attributes of the places they describe which can be demonstrated in one's own lifetime. Truely, with help of a teacher/master who professes it and not only speaks of it.

As far as faith is concerned, we can not board even a plane if we do not have faith in the pilot. Either faith builds up or wipes out with our experience. But our quest continues.

You wrote: "Do what your heart tells you, but be honest with yourself".

I fully agree with you and shall love to persue the same.

with love

[Eric]

I've been an initiate of Babi Ji Gurinder Singh for over a decade. Before that I studied every known world religion, philosophy, cult, etc. I have had serious doubts about Sant Mat for years but you know what? it makes more sense than any other spiritual practice on the planet! It's not a cult, it's not a religion, it's NOT a dogmatic brainwashing scheme, etc. It is a pure spiritual science that's as ancient as time itself.
Even if Sant Mat was a made up spiritual fairy tale, I would still believe in it because it makes total logical sense!
The Master himself always says "For all you know I'm a fraud". The Masters have never ever referred to themselves as God. They come here to teach that all souls can become God realized, we can all be God realized and there's a scientific way to do it. God is already in all of us. Sant Mat is a pure spiritual science based on inner experience - not mind control or brainwashing, etc. Trust me I'm the most skeptical person on the planet. Trust me it's REAL. This is a path about experience
nothing else. Also you can still be a Jew, a
Christian, A Muslim, A Mormon, A Buddhist, etc. and still be on this path. This is a path of meditation - this is not a religion!
You don't have to give up your past or present beliefs to be on this path. This is a path of being in the NOW and God is just a label. God is light and sound, again the word God is just a label.

[Deepak Kamat]

Now, this is where we miss Tao.

Tao should have been here now to give Eric a shock therapy.

Brian, this is the reason why I support Tao. His shock therapy was good. I am not good at that game though I tried it.

[tAo]

Well, I just could not resist commenting one mo' time on this one. And I hope y'all don't get your feathers all ruffled up due to my baaad-ass language...

About the previous commenter Eric's comments concerning RS/Santmat:

It (the Radha Soami Mat) does not make more sense than any other spiritual practice on the planet. In fact, upon deep reflection, it does not make much sense at all. It appeals primarily to those who think there is somehwere else to go or attain, and a savior to take them there.

It is a cult, and it is a religion, and it is somehwhat of a dogmatic brainwashing scheme.

It is not a pure spiritual science, and it is not as ancient as time itself. In fact, it is not a science at all.

Why would any sensible intelligent person believe in a fairy tale and gamble or waste their life upon it? RS does not make logical sense, nor does believing in fairy tales make logical sense.

Why does the RS master say "For all you know I'm a fraud"? Simply because he knows that he is a fraud and is indirectly admitting it.

The Masters have indeed referred to themselves as God, albeit indirectly, and they have also directly referred to other masters as God. They also allow their followers and disciples to regard them as God incarnate.

They do not come here to teach that all souls can become God realized, because in RS doctine, not all souls are "marked". Nor do they teach a scientific way to do it. It is entirely predicated upon faith and belief in the master and the method.

God is not "in" any of us. God is no longer a useful concept. ike everyting else, God is imaginary. We are all merely part of an incomprehesible Totality.

Sant Mat is not a pure spiritual science based on inner experience. No science is based upon inner experience.

Why should anyone trust you Eric? Your words and comments don't really show you to be the most spiritually wise and reliable, or even the most skeptical person on the planet. And why should anyone trust a believer such as you who only pretends to be a skeptic?

You say that RS is real. Why should anyone trust you that the RS is real? How do you know that? What is real? And why should anyone gamble their entire life and spirituality merely on what a blind follower like you says?

This (RS) is not at all a path about experience. It is a path that is predicated primarily upon belief and faith. Where is this experience that you speak of?

You can not reay be a Jew, a Christian, a Muslim, a Mormon, or a Buddhist, and still be on the RS path. None of those religions recognize or accept Santmat gurus or Santmat doctrine.

It is a path of a type of meditation, but it is also fundamentally a belief system and a cult and minor religion.

You do have to give up your beliefs to be on the RS path. That is made quite clear in Sar Bachan. It is not a path of being in the now, and it also has many a label for God.

You do not absolutely know that God is light and sound. You only think and believe this because you have been told so by RS doctrine. You also do not realy know what God is, or even if there is such a thing as a God or a diety.

Before you go making any more unfounded assertions Eric, I sincerely suggest that you do some real serious deep reflection and contemplation upon how much you have actually blindly bought into the RS dogma and belief system.

And I doubt that if you had really studied the entire spectrum of the spiritual traditions and philosophies of the world as you say you have, that you would dismiss them all as inferior to Santmat. Therfore I must doubt that what you have said about RS has much basis in any real knowledge and/or experience. But you are certainly welcome to prove and show us otherwise.

[Brian]

Deepak (and Eric), I don't think Eric needs shock therapy. Reality has plenty of power to correct erroneous beliefs.

Plus, I read what Eric wrote and didn't find much that I disagreed with. I still meditate. I still entertain the hypothesis that our individual consciousness can merge with some sort of universal consciousness -- which perhaps manifests as light and sound.

Most importantly, I once felt just as Eric did. So how can I criticize him, since he is me? I mean, I've believed many things in my lifetime, including the Sant Mat party line.

I've been an existentialist, a druggie, a semi-Christian (of the Yogic sort), a pseudo-Zen practitioner. Whatever I believed, it was more than just a thought. It felt right to me, and I wasn't about to be talked out of it by some verbal "shock therapy."

The way I see it, what's shifted me in a different direction hasn't been aggressive attacks on, or challenges to, my beliefs. It's been gentle questioning -- someone saying just the right thing at the right time that nudged me to examine whether I really knew what I thought was true.

Sure, there are lots of stories of Zen masters and others pushing people toward enlightenment with a loud cry or slap on the head.

But these people had accepted the authority of the Zen master. They were open to rough communication. In my experience, aggressive challenges normally just make people defensive and protective of their beliefs. They don't bring about change unless the person trusts the challenger, as in psychotherapy or a Zen temple.

[Deepak Kamat]

Brian,

I don't know about you. But I do feel that if I had come across evolved persons very early in my life, I would not have wasted time with fairy tale ideologoies. That I had to waste so much time is either destiny or perhaps because I was a dimwit.

I want to ask you one question since you spent more than 30 years singlemindedly pursuing a fairy tale ideology called Sant Mat. Don't you wish you had met someone who would wake you up from the deep sleep of RSSB very early in life? Don't you think you could have saved the 30 plus years.

I am not saying that you have wasted 30 years. It might have been a part of your evolution since you were and are meditating on it. However, don't you feel that if you had met someone like David Lane or Tao (or even me and you) very early in life, we would have saved time and concentrated on something else. Don't ask me what the "else" is.

[Brian]

P.S. I just read tAo's comment and also agree with most of what he said. Go figure. Like many RSSB devotees, Eric seems to have a "Sant Mat 2.0" perspective which isn't really the party line. I agree with tAo that beliefs are a big part of Sant Mat as it is taught.

But some aspects of the RSSB meditation, taken just by itself, absent the visualization of the guru and repeating "five holy names," that seems to be semi-scientific. Just sitting still, not thinking, and seeing what remains in consciousness.

So I think I see where Eric is coming from. I'd agree with tA0, though, that Eric might benefit by looking on RSSB meditation as a sub-set of a much broader approach to understanding what's really real, and what isn't, rather than an exceptional or unique spiritual path.

[tucson]

I think the above was Tao at his best, systematically, effectively breaking down and questioning/challenging Eric's remarks without recourse to abusive methods or profanity. Now the ball is in Eric's court to reply if he wishes. I'm all ears.

Eric said: "Even if Sant Mat was a made up spiritual fairy tale, I would still believe in it because it makes total logical sense!"

--Remarkable. What is so totally logical about Sant Mat that would convince a skeptic it is NOT a fairy tale?

[tAo]

A note of explanation about the name "tAo":

The only reason that I continue using the pseudonym of "tAo" is because I have used it here for quite a long time, and if I changed it to another regular name such as Mark or John, or a spiritual name such as Sivanath, or a humorous name like Lord Such, then old-timers and new-comers alike would not easily recognize me, and they would not relate my new name to my old past comments.

So therefore, I concluded quite awhile ago that it is simply much easier and causes no confusion, if I simply continue to post with the pseudonym "tAo". If that bothers Brian or anyone else, then I'm sorry. I don't dance to other people's drums.

And I also feel, what does a mere name matter anyway? Would it make any difference at all if I used a regular common name? I don't think so.

I also feel that anyone can use any name they choose and doing so does not make them any less credible. A name or a pseudonym is simpy a way for others to identify us. Was it wrong or evasive or disingenuous for Samuel Clemens to use the pseudonym of "Mark Twain"? I don't think so.

A real or a fictitious name is entirely a writer's prerogative, and no one need argue otherwise. I don't tell other people what name they should or should not use, and I so I don't think that they have any right or business telling me that the name that I choose to identify myself with in real life, or on the internet, is somehow improper or disingenuous.

And for the commenter who speculated that I once used the name of "Benito Darkman", I have to tell him that he is unfortunately sorely mistaken.

[Brian]

tAo, a name is just a word, a sound. I don't care how people identify themselves on the Internet, or elsewhere. It just concerns me when anonymity facilitates behavior that would be less likely if a person's identity was known.

What would each of us do if we were invisible? Interesting question. I suspect that our moral standards would change quite a bit, if we knew we couldn't be caught doing this or that.

So which is our "real" moral standard -- the public one or what we'd hold to if no one knew what we're doing? Probably the latter. So in that regard anonymity just brings out what's already there.

[komposer/adam]

I agree with the concept that Brian put forth about using our real names on the internet, though i also understand tAo's reason for using his pseudonym. For me the main point is that when I use my "real name", I think it changes how I feel about what I write somehow....so I've decided to transition from my pen name to my real name....

Brian, you mention this concept of a Sant Mat version 2.0 somehow not being partyline. While you might be right, I am not sure that makes the sant mat 2.0 version any less authentic. If you go back and read the books, there are many passages that are strikingly nondogmatic. I don't have the books in front of me, but I'll try to recall a passage from memory.
One letter by Charan Singh (I think from Light on Sant Mat?) says something like:
"there is virtually no dogma (or belief) in Sant Mat, except that the Great Reality pervades everywhere, but can be contacted only under certain conditions."
Now, it is those conditions that make people feel like Sant Mat is too dogmatic. Non-dualists, as far as I understand, wouldn't disagree with the first part of the statement, it is the second they take stock with, that there have to be certain conditions for contact with reality to occur. But I think Sant Mat can be viewed as a science. If there really is sound resounding in our foreheads all the time, then that would be a fact. I can't prove it, but if that is the case, then presumably, one could scientifically contact it only with practice, not hope or belief. The fact that one could do it without hope or belief is what makes it a science. Now I know belief and faith and hope are all involved in wanting to have the experience of merging with that sound, but isn't there also hope and faith and belief and excitement when a scientist embarks on an experiment she is pretty sure of, using her reasoning and and intellect and intuition to embark on it?

I guess for me, the "judgment" in Sant Mat can't be real, but is only a projection of our minds. Certainly there may be judgmental people in the organization, but if it bothers us, it only does so because we ourselves feel judged, or are sensitive to being judged. If that is the case, it is more interesting to ask ourselves why we feel that way than to blame others. How do we know Baba Ji is judgmental? We should all take responsibility for our own feelings. I am working on this. It aint easy, lemme tell you.

[Brian]

komposer/adam, I just came across these comments about anonymous Internet comments on NY Times web site. Interesting...
http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2008/03/03/business/media/03blog.html
Original story, even more interesting, is here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/03/business/media/03blog.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Lots of religions claim to be a "science." Scientology, for example. As I wrote about yesterday, a central hallmark of science is the feedback loops. Changing one's mind when an experiment doesn't confirm a hypothesis.

So if Sant Mat is a science, it has to allow for change. Question is: does it? I don't see much evidence of this, but maybe you do.

Experiment: become a satsang speaker. At one of your talks, say "I've tried this as it's taught by RSSB. I found it doesn't work. So I recommend a different approach. Here it is."

See how long you remain a speaker. So, is Sant Mat a science or a religion? Is it open to new evidence, or not?

[Michele Beaver]

Jesus is not "dead". He rose from the dead. Read the Bible. Thank You. From Michele in Texas

[haresh khatri]

hi friends .

there is a saying in india , if a river is flowing dont look for the source , or if there is a master dont look for what his origin is or what he is doing when not preaching because you will miss on what u were taught,

In bible we read that kane was uncondtional follower of god , and able asked manu questions to belive him , just imagine what would have god shown them extra ordinary , nothin just told them to belive, one belived and one was doubtful and we read that kane went to heaven,

[tAo]

Your "saying" is incredibly stupid and foolish. But go ahead and stick your own head down in the mud of ignorance if you like.

[Juan]

Hi Haresh,

Right, you should not look the origin of the master and have full faith in him, BUT wouldn’t it be better if you hold the NEW MASTER son of Master Gurinder Singh to take you to heaven.

Best wishes,

[Eric]

Don't try to discuss sat mat and about Baba Ji on the internet.If you want answer and you have courage then ask Baba Ji.Can't end his satsang or question or answer session, write letter to him.Discussing with disciples will take you no where.You experience these things, Fine!

[Yoyo]

Michele,

If Jesus is not dead, please direct me to his address so that I may see him in the flesh.

[+Ao]

I'm sure George will love (or hate?) this one...

Eric says:

"Don't try to discuss sat mat and about Baba Ji on the internet.If you want answer and you have courage then ask Baba Ji. [...] write letter to him. Discussing with disciples will take you no where."

-- Hey Eric, I (and the rest of us here) will "discuss" ANY DAMN THING we like, including Santmat. And its none of your damn friggin business.

Who the hell do you thik you are to tell others what they can and cannot discuss here?

And btw, I desire no such "answer" from some ridiculous "Babaji" fool.

Your comment does nothing more than reveal how mentally constipated you are.

And if you don't watch out... well we might have to send you over to see ole George... and trust me, you really don't want that to happen. *grin*

[George]

George is here, front and centre. if u call i shall come.

I actually quite like what Eric said.

My biggest gripe with organised religion is that its a bunch of happy clappies that generally try and proselytize their faith onto others.

However, it seems with many of the mystic traditions including Sant Mat, there are some satsangis that take their tradition as an incredibly personal experience. They simply don't want to share it.

These true satsangis don't actually want their experiences analysed or discussed, whereas others of a more 'rational' bent do appear to want to analyse, rationalise and compare notes as it were. I know I would fall into the latter category. Perhaps however one might try to open their mind, our western conditioning does not allow it. On the other hand, perhaps those better equipped to have these mystical experiences are experiencing an illusion. I dont know, I guess no-one does.

I believe many of the heated arguments on here are between these two types, a dissillusioned rationally-based set of ex-satsangis against current satsangis who are often not interested in selling or imposing their beliefs, so much as defending them and the ppl or beliefs they hold so dear.

Personally, i don't believe much should be taboo, everything should be discussed, however everyone knows that if one wants a meaningful dialogue there are certain basic forms of etiquette one should stick to.

Call me ole-fashioned but calling someone or their god a 'fuckpig' is unlikely to facilitate such a dialogue.

[George]

Let me put it another way.

Say for example you are dearly in love with your nearest and dearest, he/she is the most beautiful perfect lovely creature in existence.

Speaking personally, there is no ways i would discuss such a woman or my feelings for her with a bunch of unknown repropates on the internet. I am sure most of you feel the same way, and we'd all be extremely angry if others attacked her and called her the whore from babylon and decried our love for that person as being irrational.

So perhaps there are certain things that remain personal or at the very least need to be addressed with a little more tact.

If everything is on the table and we can discuss anything we damn will want, then perhaps the more rational ex-satsangis would be willing to describe the sexual urges and experiences with their dearly beloved.

Its just pretty poor form, not so?

[Roger]

"Speaking personally, there is no ways i would discuss such a woman or my feelings for her with a bunch of unknown repropates on the internet. I am sure most of you feel the same way, and we'd all be extremely angry if others attacked her and called her the whore from babylon and decried our love for that person as being irrational."

"If everything is on the table and we can discuss anything we damn will want, then perhaps the more rational ex-satsangis would be willing to describe the sexual urges and experiences with their dearly beloved."

---Very poor analogy. No One here, needs to know, or is asking the details of another's sexual experiences. Discussing meditation (spiritual)experiences is proper. Exchanging information on nutrition and other topics is appropriate. This is a blog, where such exchanges take place.

[George]

Maybe, but my point is not what ppl are asking to be discussed, rather the manner in which its discussed. While some might feel its perfectly acceptable to have a go at a satguru or call Babaji a 'pigfuck' and so on, others love babaji and don't want to have him discussed in this manner, its considered extremely inappropriate.

[Brian]

George, I agree that courteous discourse is preferable to profanity (which, when taken to extremes, is the recourse of those who have don't have an argumentative leg to stand on and are reduced to ranting).

However, if someone doesn't want to have their feelings offended, being devoted to a guru or other religious leader, they shouldn't venture onto a churchless blog. Similarly, if someone is tender-hearted toward animals and doesn't like to have them killed for food, taking part in a Cattlemen's Association forum will expose them to some ridicule.

[George]

yes, good point, i'm going for a steak.

[Eric]

The way AO+ expressed his feeling in very nice manner and as a good human being. He displayed he is having good etiquette. Don't follow to anyone else, Just follow him and it is sure that you will be heading in right direction.

[Raj]

beautiful comments! I myself am an initiate of RSSB. Being a scientist myself, some people ask me whether I believe in God. After becoming a scientist, I believe more in god than ever. Just like a current passing through wires, we cannot see the electron movement, but it is there..similarly there is another dimension that we cannot see. We are seeing miracles day in day out of our lives! A ton of metal pieces flying in the air, things shown live on TV from thousands and thousands of miles away..I mean if we had told this to somebody in the previous century that we would have airplanes and tvs..they would call us nuts! Now these were man made miracles,however we put to use laws already present. Again..remember..we discover laws (force of attraction between planets etc), we DO NOT invent laws. Therefore it would be safe to say there is a higher authority making these laws..suspending planets in space and make them rotate at an almost fixed rate.

As for RSSB being bogus etc..the reason why we believe in TVs and airplanes today are because we see them since man is more intelligent than what it used to be. Our intellect was not there before, hence we would have been called idiots to believe man will fly in metal etc. Maybe, just maybe, our intellect is still not there for us to realize what this higher authority (GOD) is. Dont just disbelieve since we are not smart enough to understand...I say try meditation according to RSSB and see for yourself..you got nothing to lose or gain. Also, Guru Nanak, now I mean centuries ago, stated there are countless planets and universe in the holy Granth..guess what people believed then..they said NO there is only one and we are living on it. Heck some idiots didnt know that the earth was round, they thought it was flat. Anyhow, guess what we are discovering today..there are indeed countless planets and universes. Now how does a man, many centuries ago know this..he had no means of going in space! He claims he did this through meditation. Soul could travel out of body and see..he challenged people to try meditation and see for your self. I say...what the heck..lets try it!

I have noticed most of our disbeliefs come because we were brought up to believe in something different or again we are not smart enough. Kind of like Lord Ganesh statues drinking milk. This happened all over the world. People who fed the statue the milk (videos on internet), saw the milk disappear in the spoon! People who tried at home..white people..said the same thing happend..they bought statues and tried it at home..still...McMaster University professors went and inspect a couple of the statues..since some materials soak liquid..however they concluded that was not the material but if it was, it would have reached its saturation point. Meanwhile the statue was drinking tonnes! But a lot of people who think in the box denied..without logic since this defies logic. So I urge people, some things in science defy logic, but we dont reject! We continue to work and try to find logic in it.

Sorry for the essay, but I thought It might be best to hear it from a scientist of what we encounter.

Thanks all.

[tucson]

Raj,

Let's say that someone tells you that there is a place with a beautiful Majic Bird that makes you very happy when you hear its song.

Not only is the Magic Bird supposed to be so very, very beautiful, but its song will cause you to be in a state of perpetual bliss and you will never have any suffering again.

The problem is that this place where the Bird lives is supposed to be very difficult to get to and it is hard to find anyone who knows how to do it. You go around for years asking if anyone knows how to get to the Bird.

Finally you find a guy called the Captain who says he knows how to get to the Bird and that you are very lucky to find him because people with his special knowledge are very rare.

He guarantees that he can take you in a special ship across a vast sea to the place where the Bird lives. But first you must do a lot of work fixing up the ship...cleaning the hull, varnishing the decks, lubricating the winches, patching the sails and much more.

After many years of working on the ship you feel that it must be ready for the voyage, but the Captain says that no, the ship is not ready yet and that it needs more work below deck, securing the berths and hatches and fixing the galley and sealing some leaks.

You work on the ship for many more years and say to the Captain that surly the ship is now fit for the voyage to the Magic Bird.

But the Captain says no, its not ready yet. You begin to get suspicious and ask the Captain if he is stalling because he really doesn't know how to sail the ship to the Magic Bird.

You begin to think that you are doing all this work for nothing, but the Captain is very nice and charming and so many other people working on the ship seem to be happy and have faith in the Captain. So you keep on working with a hopeful attitude.

Finally after more work and still no voyage you ask the Captain to show you that he really has charts to where the Magic Bird lives and to introduce you to other people he has taken to see the Magic Bird.

The Captain says that even if he showed you the charts you wouldn't understand them and the people he has taken to see the Magic Bird are sworn to secrecy. They aren't allowed to say anything about the Magic Bird and if the Captain took them to it.

You accept that and keep on working on the ship until one day you fall ill and begin to die. You beg the Captain to begin the voyage as you are at the end of your life and want to know if the Magic Bird is real even though by now it is too late to turn back and begin work on another ship. So far all you have heard are stories and promises and now the end is near.

You tell the Captain that you are very worried that all the faith you have placed in him has been for nothing. He reassures you that even if you die before reaching the Magic Bird that the ship will surely then be ready for the voyage and take you there.

Finally the end comes and you draw your last breath. As you slip away you wonder if the ship has set sail yet. You think you see the Captain there but even he is beginning to fade along with the ship you worked so very hard on.

Now this may seem to be a very gloomy end to the story, but it is very important that any sailor going on a big voyage has a real Captain who knows his way. He has to think hard about it and be very sure that the Captain is truly capable.

Do you know for sure your Captain knows the way? Do you know for sure there is a Magic Bird? Of course you hope so.

Now at this point this story is pretty gloomy and sad and may leave you feeling a little sad and disheartened, but Part 2 of this story is much better.

It has been told many times in many places, even on this blog. Part 2 has been written in many books and told by many people but you never really understand part 2 until you write it yourself.

And the funny thing is you find at the end of the story that there never was a writer in the first place and that the land of the Magic Bird being far, far away was just a fantasy.

The Magic Bird is what you are.

[George]

lol, a statue drinking milk, come off it Raj, science my ass. Who are Macadams university, are they scientologists?

I have never really understood when religions try use science to explain god.

Electricity is an age-old chestnut. So is magnetism and gravity. We know these forces exist because they all cause observable effects. But there is no observable effect for God. If there was you would win the nobel prize.

Electricity is fully explainable by science, charge and current can be measured. Even in prehistoric times charge would cause observable effects such as lightning, electric eels and static discharge after the caveman rubbed his wooly mamoth. Magnetised splinters point toward magnetic north and the apple falls to earth at a certain speed governed by gravity.

You may say God is the cause of gravity, magnetism or electricity - but i would say what is the proof for that? All explainable observable phenomena. What if the universe is the ultimate reality and there is no god, the universe is all there was and ever shall be, the prime mover?

[Raj]

LOL...my goodness..closed minded..just like I said..afraid to explore..and scientoligists????? First become a PHD and then step up to the plate with me..lol. And you all seemed to miss the concept about the current in wire. Yes it could be measured, but morons, do you have any idea when we started realizing that we could measure this. Since the start of humanity..for you slow folks..that was long time ago..it tooks us sooooo fucking long to learn about current..then use them..then measure. Until then, people like you would have shot down the idea saying, "get off it". LOL..but we are lucky, people still continued to research. As a matter of fact, thinking of a story to compete with this beautiful "magic bird" story, think of of the world as just starting..we have dumbass cavemen ruling the world..and you are only one that understands science. If you were to go tell him about current, measurements and so on, do you have any idea what reception you are going to get? Just like morons that believed the earth was flat and apparently killed anybody that said otherwise. I mean come on people, open up your minds..lets not be afraid of exploring. Think for a second, what disadvantage is it to believe in higher authority..we as humans..dumbasses made all these laws and posts and made other humans, just like us, as higher authorities. Judges, policemen etc..LOL..I understand there is no proof of god, but easy question is what proof is there that there is no god? Age old question isnt it? We logic all these bullshit..prime mover shrime mover, we prove to the world we got so much time on our hands that we think of dumbass stories as "magic bird", how about we try to put our time to use..now theres an idea! Dont need to be "scientologist" for that one..man..that cracked me up! Oh and by the way, people who are researching as PHD's in unversities, in the fields Mechanical and Materials are studying a part of science, there is no such thing as an all out sciencist. Each scientist majors in something, not everything and anything. Looks like not much schooling goes on anymore.

Anyways, dumbasses like you are required, which is the reason why we are called smart researchers and you pay tax money to pay our monster salaries...LOL

[Raj]

Oh yeah..no need to reply to my messages from now on as I am not coming on to this site. The last forum that I was on that had great discussions. No generalized comments and more to the point. Hence I agreed on some parts and the other folks agreed..which made it a constructive arguments. Here, this site are for morons egging each other on and leading to...god knows where. Also, if I do meditate and come up with nothing, and you all sit at homes typing up shit on internet and end up with nothing..seems to me we are all in the same boat regardless..the only exception is that meditators seem to become calm and relaxed..where as you all run after shit you cant have and die trying..hehehe..again..we need losers to appreciate the winners! Good luck all..some I wont be seeing since they probably will babble there way to hell..but some I meet you heaven if I get lucky!

I am outtie.

[Blogger Brian]

Raj, obviously you don't much about science. Usually it isn't possible to prove that something doesn't exist -- like fairies, goblins, or God. Rather, demonstrable evidence has to be provided that something does exist. Like you said, there is no proof of God.

It isn't up to skeptics to prove that God doesn't exist. Instead, it's up to you to prove that God does exist, and that your other claims are true. After you were challenged, you decided to stop commenting here, which shows that you aren't as openminded as you like to think you are.

When you have some evidence for your blind faith, come back and share it. Until then, thanks for providing another example of how religious true believers talk a good game, but can't play it.

[George]

How do you know i'm not a PhD, but one don't need a degree in anything to realise its bullshitting value when statues are drinking milk.

Tell you what, you prove that, and I reckon you win the Novel Prize and I be first to apologise for my skepticism.

There's openminded and then plain looney tunes.

I dont know who the dumbass cavemen are, but they the sort that believed in living statues and such crap.

Thanks for the laugh.

[George]

as for researchers, if my hard-earned bucks are going towards paying for crap research like that, i'm write to the IRS and my local senator, pappy horndog snr.

what a disgrace?

Next, these 'smart scientists' will be researching Uranus. Disgraceful.

[George]

[Note: the profane, insulting, contentless-comment referred to by George was deleted because it violated this blog's comment policies -- Blogger Brian]

so what highway gambler is saying is that he too believes in milk-drinking statues, actually no what he is saying is twatty twitty titty gooble dee goob...fart.

yes yes fools united...to the end shall we go, arm in arm, waltzing matilda.

[gaurav]

Hi All
I have read through posts here and I am really happy to come across different point of views.
Many here are trying to figure out about that abnormal, extraterrestrial spiritual experience here in these forums. Some say its not describable in words. While there are some who are just dismissing the whole thing as a ‘magical bird’ fable.
Problem is we are not adopting right attitude and approach towards seeking answers.
Right attitude - We are just trying to fight battles of ego from domains of our preconceived notions.
Right approach- We are trying to figure out as a group. We are trying to hang on with pack to corroborate things to satisfy our intellect. In fact, we have to seek our own individual answers.
Rather than spending ---- here typing detailed arguments/counter-arguments, we should simply shut out the world and delve within (meditation) to seek answers. Even Babaji says no one can do something what the seeker has to do for himself. Not even Master will sit in meditation for you. He cannot simply open his fist and show us the ultimate truth.
It would be really helpful to ourselves if have the right attitude and adopt right approach i.e. sit in meditation. Use this forum just for sort of notes-exchanging. But ultimately it is only meditation ( that’s what I have concluded for myself).

Even my faith has had rollercoaster experiences, vacillated between absolute faith to extreme opposite. But let me declare that I belong to the pro-RS camp in the context of the debates going-on over here. I would like to share my perspective on 4 broad issues (I think) that I categorized here as follows:
1. RS cult authoritarianism.
2. Contradicting paradoxes.
3. where are proof of stories.
4. Babaji’s GIHF/ lack of GIHF.

1. RS authoritarianism – Its not RS authoritarianism to talk about that one GOD, His one story, the one single way to realize him which was designed by one himself. In fact RS tries to show its flexibility in terms of corroborating this one ultimate truth from different holy books keeping in mind our diverse backgrounds.

2. Contradicting paradoxes - Why God created this place? Why he sent away souls? Why if we (Adam& Eve) were not supposed to taste forbidden fruit (poison/sin) then why the fruit itself was created by God?
These paradoxes have even had put my faith into ultimate tests of tenacity. But the conclusion I drew was – I am not in the right sphere/ realization level to comprehend these answers. Because the plane of truth at present on which we are standing is ‘plane of duality’. This plane is designed such a way that the best of human minds remain entwined in its baffling self-contradicting logics. The fodder for our mind(ego) in this plane is logics. The human logics can never be used to realize that God existing above this realm. Hence our minds feels frustrated. This is how this world was meant to be as designed by ‘Kaal (mind consciousness)’.
So only solution for us is to raise ourselves (consciousness/understanding) above this realm through meditation.
There’s a book by sant Kabir (the courageous sword carrier who cut himself free from snarls of kaal) who sheds light on this kingdom of “kaal” in his book ‘Anurag Sagar’. If we read this book with right seeker attitude then we find most of our answers falling in this category. However for those who don’t have patience to read through book can have peek view through this PPT video on ‘Youtube’.
This video is based on the Anurag Sagar of kabir, which deals with the mystery of this kingdom of Kaal. How it all began?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3aE-_q-uvU

(I would like to share my perspective on rest two categories in the next post. Thank You.)

[George]

But who says the answers are within?
Perhaps they are outside.

When a baby is born he/she has no ego or knowledge to speak of, in fact baby is totally and utterly useless and dependent on external parents to teach baby.

We've had mystics since time immemorial and none of them could explain electricity or the motion of the planets or why there is such complexity of life on earth.

Instead man has provided these answers. Not one person, but a whole host of people who have learnt and assembled an external body of knowledge using others knowledge and their own intellect to make gradual insights, which builds on this body of knowledge.

Hawkings, Einstein, Newton, Leibniz did not go within their soul to discover answers, they used the external manmade body of science to do so and their intellects to add to it.

[gaurav]

George
-----------------------------------------
But who says the answers are within?
Perhaps they are outside.
Instead man has provided these answers. Not one person, but a whole host of people who have learnt and assembled an external body of knowledge using others knowledge and their own intellect to make gradual insights, which builds on this body of knowledge.
Hawkings, Einstein, Newton, Leibniz did not go within their soul to discover answers, they used the external manmade body of science to do so and their intellects to add to it.
------------------------------------------

Because Mystics have repeatedly said this throughout the ages. The key door to that ultimate truth lies at the tenth door, at the eye center.

Let me share with you another interesting aspect worth pondering.

Which part of Human mind has found all the answers (Gravity, Relativity) found till now by the greatest scientists as quoted by you above?

It’s the head. And pay attention to this fact that it was possible because they concentrated with their hand on the forehead. What does this indicate that all the answers lie here at the human forehead, specifically at the eye center. It certainly still contains many more unexplored treasures!

Now to find answers to things which we can witness or understand with our present senses like- why the apple falls on the ground?
We use references of things in this plane of truth. We contemplate on things of this world to find answers related to them. And Humans have just used 5-10% of mind to find answers to these.
Now what if take this concentration/contemplation to a higher level. I.e. we shut out our senses, we dull our external thoughts to the point that everything becomes still in our mind absolutely. (possible in meditation)
We are bound to discover/ understand something that is hidden from us till now!
This is moment when our that consciousness (dead till now) awakens. and then it has infinite things to explore / find.

Theoretically I would like to summarise as follows:
Bring the mind scattered ∞ in this world to absolute 0 then you have ∞ things to explore at other end.

This is what mystics have encouraged us/challenged us to do.

[manjitd]

Dear Gaurav - it is extremely unlikely the Anurag Sagar was actually authored by the historical person known as Kabir.

An analysis of style, content & message has, for me, made it almost 100% certain that they (Kabir's 'official' works in the Granth Sahib & Bijak) were not written by the same person who wrote Anurag Sagar.

Unless they had some sort of brain damage in between writing them(personal joke :oP)

If you want to know more about the REAL 'courageous sword carrier' that was Kabir - read the Bijak.

It may not be as similar to the Radhasoami notions of 'Satguru' as you suspect....
Cheers.

[Blogger Brian]

manjitd, the Bijak of Kabir indeed is a wonderful set of writings. I quoted from my copy in a couple of blog posts:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2006/07/the_glory_of_be.html
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/11/kabir_a_patron_.html

Sample:

"Pandit, you’ve got it wrong.
There’s no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,
no sun, moon, earth, or water,
no radiant form, no time there,
no word, no flesh, no faith,
no cause and effect, nor any thought
of the Veda. No Hari or Brahma,
no Shiva or Shakti, no pilgrimage
and no rituals. No mother, father
or guru there. Is it two or one?
Kabir says, if you understand now,
you’re guru, I’m disciple."

Beautiful. No faith. No radiant form. No guru. No rituals. No creator. This shows how distant from the Bijak of Kabir so many other interpretations of Kabir are.

[George]

gaurav,
I totally agree with you that all answers have been made by the head, since it is only the human brain that does any thinking and that is contained in the head.

Their may be a third eye or a soul or heart insight, but there is no proof of that.

Moreover, it was a certain part of man's mind, which allowed these insights, his intellect. They did not happen in a void. Picasso did not disclose the laws of relativity and neither did Kabir, instead it took a man steeped in scientific training to make such insights, and he did so in acccurare scientific language not in metaphorical hazy language.

If there is indeed another part of the mind, other than the intellect, responsible for all of man's greatest insights, then why did Picasso uncover cubism while Einstein uncovered relativity?

Its because Einstein's intellect and natural disposition was towards science, while Picasso's brain talents and training were geared towards art.

[gaurav]

george
I totally agree with you that all answers have been made by the head, since it is only the human brain that does any thinking and that is contained in the head.
Their may be a third eye or a soul or heart insight, but there is no proof of that.
-------------------------------------
Yes there are no factual measurable scientific proofs to these things.
This was one of the biggest problem that affected me also until sometime back that-
I wanted all proofs, logics laid thread bare before me before I would even think about wetting my toe in the waters of mysticism. I went round and round in the realms of logical explanation until one day I realized why not should I listen to the words of wise men.’
For a change, for some days I gave rest to my mind. I opened my mind and heart to empty out preconceived notions. With this right seeker attitude I listened and read what the wise mystics have all along been telling. what ever went into my mind, I accept it with a full stop and simply paid no attention to the question marks(?).
Gradually the roots of my faith found its hold, I discovered that I was ready to travel on the path of self realization. To find proofs for myself.
Babaji said in one of the discourse, how can I explain you things in the language that you understand.
The predicament is similar to like a dumb is made to taste the nectar and he is asked whats the taste like. The dumb even though feels enjoys the taste cannot describe it in comprehensible language. He would only utter some gibberish in its praise.
-----------------------------------
Its because Einstein's intellect and natural disposition was towards science, while Picasso's brain talents and training were geared towards art.

Einstein explored the left part of brain (logical, scientific mind) while Piccasso explored the right part of the brain( creative mind).
Well my personal disposition is to explore mind towards center/absolute zero.
Beyond that I don’t have any concrete proof as yet before me but I have the testimonials of praise by the wise men who have gone there earlier.
Theres absolutely no harm to me to harbor that unconditional faith, humility in me to keep the patience and try. Today I have all the world talks in my mind. Gradually I want to turn my mind off to this chatters and then I want to allow myself to turn speechless after I discover my ultimate truth. I want that silence, that peace.

[gaurav]

Thank you Manjit
for your inputs/suggestions.
I would try to follow on your suggested readings in near future.

[tucson]

Gaurav wrote: "Rather than spending [time] here typing detailed arguments/counter-arguments, we should simply shut out the world and delve within (meditation) to seek answers."

--Then why are you on this blog? In Sant Mat there is a tendency by some to conceptualize "within" as an actual place somewhere inside us or inside our awareness that is different in nature from our durrent experience. There comes a time when one realises that "within" and "without" are the same thing. How does a drop of water go inside itself, and what would be different about the water inside the drop from the water on the surface?

Gaurav said: "Even Babaji says no one can do something what the seeker has to do for himself. Not even Master will sit in meditation for you. He cannot simply open his fist and show us the ultimate truth."

--The question is, how do we know that there IS an ultimate truth to go to if the master can't open his fist and show it to us? How do we know he knows it? Again..How do we know he knows it? How do we know he is a master? How do we know what there is to be a master of?

However, I agree that whatever there is or isn't to find out we have to experience it ourselves, or better...without ourselves.

Gaurav said: "Even my faith has had rollercoaster experiences, vacillated between absolute faith to extreme opposite."

--At least you admit it is faith. If you are comfortable with that faith who should argue with you, except those who you hope to convince of the correctness of your faith?

Gaurav said: "1. RS authoritarianism – Its not RS authoritarianism to talk about that one GOD, His one story, the one single way to realize him which was designed by one himself. In fact RS tries to show its flexibility in terms of corroborating this one ultimate truth from different holy books keeping in mind our diverse backgrounds."

--You are assuming there is this one ultimate truth. What if it is just an idea?

And as far as words in holy books corroborating RS teachings are concerned, it is easy to interpret them to suit one's ideals. I mean, certain Muslims take passages out of the Koran to literally mean that the heads of infidels should be cut off, but is that what the words really mean? I don't know. Do you? Does anyone?

Gaurav said: "... Because the plane of truth at present on which we are standing is ‘plane of duality’. This plane is designed such a way that the best of human minds remain entwined in its baffling self-contradicting logics.

--That is your experience of this plane, but others may experience it without the duality of subject-object separation. Maybe the truth you seek elsewhere is right where you are and not in some other "plane".

Gaurav wrote: "The fodder for our mind(ego) in this plane is logics. The human logics can never be used to realize that God existing above this realm."

--You may be right but that is only an assumption since you do not even know what God is, only what you have been told by someone who may, or may not, know what God is.

Gaurav wrote: "Hence our minds feels frustrated. This is how this world was meant to be as designed by ‘Kaal (mind consciousness)’."

--It may appear to some minds that the world is a delusion of an entity called Kal who is mean and wants to deceive us, but it may also be that the delusion is an idea of a mind perceiving a harmonious, non-dual world incorrectly. It may be that everything is just fine, AS IT IS.

Gaurav said: "So only solution for us is to raise ourselves (consciousness/understanding) above this realm through meditation."

--Without subject-object relation, what is above or below? Could it be that the reality of which you speak is fully present in this moment?

Gaurav wrote: "There’s a book by sant Kabir (the courageous sword carrier who cut himself free from snarls of kaal) who sheds light on this kingdom of “kaal” in his book ‘Anurag Sagar’."

--These "holy" books make it all seem so dramatic. It's no big deal. It's staring you in the face as you. Let your face slip away and just be the staring and these difficulties go up in smoke. Poof!

Gaurav said: "If we read this book with right seeker attitude then we find most of our answers falling in this category."

--If there is an answer, there must be a question. That is duality or split mind. When it is seen that the question is the answer, whole mind, then you will be free.

Gaurav wrote: "How it all began?"

--You have been reading only certain types of "holy" books. Others say there never was an "it" to have begun in the first place.

I liked the quote Blogger Brian provided from the Bijak of Kabir that I want to repeat it here:

"Pandit, you’ve got it wrong.
There’s no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,
no sun, moon, earth, or water,
no radiant form, no time there,
no word, no flesh, no faith,
no cause and effect, nor any thought
of the Veda. No Hari or Brahma,
no Shiva or Shakti, no pilgrimage
and no rituals. No mother, father
or guru there. Is it two or one?
Kabir says, if you understand now,
you’re guru, I’m disciple."

He says it much better me.

[Roger]

"For a change, for some days I gave rest to my mind. I opened my mind and heart to empty out preconceived notions. With this right seeker attitude I listened and read what the wise mystics have all along been telling. what ever went into my mind, I accept it with a full stop and simply paid no attention to the question marks(?).
Gradually the roots of my faith found its hold, I discovered that I was ready to travel on the path of self realization. To find proofs for myself."

--Nothing wrong with opening one's mind and heart to empty out preconceived notions. However preconceived notions could possibly be: right seeking attitudes, wise mystic tellings, path travelings and self-realization proofs. Don't forget, I'm not finding fault.

[George]

Guarav,

No problem with an openmind, but fools like ashy and raj are telling me i'm a fool for not being openminded enough to believe in milk-drinking statues.

Anything is possible, in an alternative universe perhaps there are statues that sip milk. Perhaps there is a god and seven astral planes with zeus, thor, mickey mouse and belzebub - But the reality is that there is no proof for any of this.

What there is proof for is Picasso's art and Einstein's science, both products of the human mind built upon the mastery and training of the external knowledge provided by previous human minds.

As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?

There are atheists who are vegetarians, non-racist, pacifist, humanitarian, arties that encourage love to all things and spend happy fullfilling lives in the servitude of others - what can such an atheist possibly learn from a mystic on how to live life?

No mystic has ever answered any of science's questions or even the bigger questions of human existence. In fact, they wont even discuss the experience itself and say it is indescribable. So if the experience is indescribable how can they help humanity and how can they give any answers? And if they do have the answers, why all the secretive stuff?

Since you are a follower of the mystics, I presume you are privy to such answers such as what is the meaning of life? What happens after death? Why are we put into a physical realm only to be taught yearning for a spiritual realm? Why is their suffering or death or life at all? How did life begin? Does all life also possess an afterlife?

Most importantly, on what are these answers based, upon which i am too unquestioningly rely like the openminded believer in milk-sipping statues?

Instead I, and other skeptics, are chasticed for asking such questions. We are blamed for using logic, for using our naturally-given intellects.

[tucson]

I understand what George is saying in his comment above and his question is a good one:

"As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?"

--Aside from subjective, esoteric mumbo jumbo and the hope of something beyond this transient physical life and the sense of security that may bring to some people, I would say that most mystics offer little other than dreams to ponder and dreams to chase.

However, there are some mystics/teachers/people on the street who help some people to see whatever truth/reality there is to see... for themselves. To those people this truth and the peace it might bring may be of great value even if it cannot be directly conveyed to others and only sensed or felt in their presence.

Could that be what some mystics have done for mankind, unmeasurable and unquantifiable that it may be?

[George]

Thats exactly as i understand it Tucson and phrased more neatly than i did - but what peace is it that these ppl get in their mystic's prescence?

But even that is alot more believable than some of this other pap like an intricate 7-planed cosmology or milk-sipping rock.

Is the 7-planed RS cosmology a metaphor which perhaps rather than describing spiritual planes is describing different psychological regions of the mind as it perhaps progresses deeper into itself?

[tucson]

George asked: "Is the 7-planed RS cosmology a metaphor which perhaps rather than describing spiritual planes is describing different psychological regions of the mind as it perhaps progresses deeper into itself?"

--Again George makes a good point because I hear that the current RS master, Gurinder Singh, is putting the metaphor spin on the inner regions and saying that they are not acutal locations, dimensions or whatever you might imagine them to be. Rather he says they are symbolic.

This is counter to the teachings as they are presented in the RS literature and by the former masters themselves.

Personally, I don't care but if I were a devotee this would be a matter of some concern. Which is correct, the new master's teaching or the old?

If the old is incorrect then by what genuine authority does the current master draw his appointment since by his own statement the inner regions are not real as taught by his master. Was his master (Charan Singh) wrong or misleading the followers? If so, does that mean Charan Singh was not a genuine master and therefore did not have the ability to "annoint" the current master?

Who, then, is the current master Gurinder Singh? Or, who was Charan Singh?

Lots of questions are raised by this. Glad I'm not a member of the club anymore.

[gaurav]

tucson

I acknowledge your efforts to take my statements one by one and offer your counterviews on same.Thank you,But am sorry that I can take them just at literature level and not beyond this forum.It is in my self-interest. Because I dont want to carry any baggage of emboldened ego(by winning debates/arguments) or bad after taste in mouth or mind. These are detrimental on my path of faith.

Further as to why am here in this blog when I had myself earlier suggested to shutdown net and go within.

Because I wish to express my solidarity with my fellow seekers who are in the waters of mysticism but suffer pangs of wavering faith just like me.

Their faiths shiver may be due to thoughts of their own minds or by comments of viewers on the poolside. The poolside viewers who themselves would never try jumping into water or may have had made unsuccesful attempts earlier and have given up their efforts.

You may as well take my comments just at any literature level. Now that literature may also belong to trash.

Thank you.

[George]

ah so it comes down to faith as per usual.

[gaurav]

What have the mystics done for the Humanity

George wrote
As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?
----------------------------------
Tucson wrote
I understand what George is saying in his comment above and his question is a good one:
"As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?"
Could that be what some mystics have done for mankind, unmeasurable and unquantifiable that it may be?
No mystic has ever answered any of science's questions or even the bigger questions of human existence. In fact, they wont even discuss the experience itself and say it is indescribable. So if the experience is indescribable how can they help humanity and how can they give any answers? And if they do have the answers, why all the secretive stuff?

------------------------------------------

When Jesus came on this earth, his call was for freedom. He didn’t come to make this place the heaven for people. He talked about leading people to their real home out of the miseries of this action/reaction kingdom.He came as a shepherd to collect his flock of sheeps to head them back home.
It has never been mission of any mystic to make this place any better to leave. In fact they live life untouched, aloof from things happening around. They remain sad to stay here and get never tired of reminding people. That’s what is there mission.
They normally never interfere with any of the natural action/reaction phenomenon which is the universal law just like gravity in this plane. In other words they never do any miracles. Because they have to honor the laws applicable here. Otherwise God would be dishonouring laws made by himself for this plane of existence. Figuratively speaking he would be dishonoring the promise given to kaal for his kingdom.

Evangelist does good for humanity. He brings forth temporary relief to the people he touches. and he gets rewarded in equal measure in this re/action kingdom.
while a mystics lives a temporary life here away from his real home and thanklessly , tirelessly works to remind people about their actual home.Faithless People called them crazy. Jesus was nailed to death. Sikh gurus were tortured and killed by Mughals. Mira bai was unperturbed by the material wealth around here.
These noble souls provided panacea to humanity they touched. They did not provide any temporary relief. They have been doing the most noble charity possible for mankind.

And The Mystics have tried to describe whats the experience is like. What things they have witnessed. Read "Sar Bachan" of Swamiji Maharaj. He has tried to describe in detail. But are we ready to listen?

Mystics are never interested in Science because thats the realm confined to this plane of reality. The universal laws applicable here/governing this plane - Gravity, physical mass, Time constraints , potential-kinetic energy, momentum, and the most important of all –Action-Reaction are all left behind here. Why they need to spend time on these. They are least interested in winning any Nobel prize.

[gaurav]

Tuscan wrote-
This is counter to the teachings as they are presented in the RS literature and by the former masters themselves.
Personally, I don't care but if I were a devotee this would be a matter of some concern. Which is correct, the new master's teaching or the old?Who, then, is the current master Gurinder Singh? Or, who was Charan Singh.

The ultimate truth has always been the same. It’s the Shabad (word) that is ultimate master of all. Who ever merged in that shabd has become shabd itself. Like drop of water loses its identity when it merges with ocean.

Gurinder Singh / Charan Singh are the masters who have merged themselves with Shabad.
They deserve our respect because they do the best charity any soul can do in this world. They give/remind us the way to merge back into that shabd. They show us the way hence we ourselves become masters in our own sphere. Not kind of declared master responsible for group of souls but of our own life.

With respect to variance in the theory b/w the two?

Theory given depends on the target audience intended. If these things were to be taught to simple Indian villager, he would given the story in very simple manner. Things would be personified for him – like kaal made the villain.

If the theory was to be meant for intellutual , questioning urban scientist the terms used would be more scientific. But still the full justice to subject would not be done because the terms dont exist by even human scientist standard. better is to experience than going into theories!

still not convinced. Try your luck with a possible theory ahead.
------------------------------------
George asked: "Is the 7-planed RS cosmology a metaphor which perhaps rather than describing spiritual planes is describing different psychological regions of the mind as it perhaps progresses deeper into itself?"

Let me kind of try to build picture for your visualization of things as they are.
If you have studied science it has concluded that the atoms are nothing but have electrons vibrating in their spheres. Now try to visualize what kind of mass they would be having!
Any element is in turn made up of atoms vibrating. The whole thing is held together by a attractive force which is stronger than repulsive force. They are kind of held together by unknown force. Further they combine to give compounds, alloys, mixtures. This whole physical world we see is the mixture(nothing is pure in it). The whole thing in turn is vibrating at different frequencies.

Lets go further, when a light or sound is produced?
Its when the atoms/electrons vibrate at particular frequency.
Eg. Heat a piece of Iron, the heating increases the energy in the electrons. They vibrate at higher frequency. They Iron in turn becomes hot. If we continuing heating it further the electrons become more and more agitated until it becomes red hot and starts emitting its own light.agitate to infinite level,it may ultimately be only light.

But in this physical world what is the natural tendency of Iron? Leave it the forces applicable here within will bring it together & solidify it again.

That formless God has been described as a the ultimate source of light and sound(universal vibration) 'shabd'.

Our souls are also lights (vibration) which has to merge back. Our body is only elements and once soul leaves body the elements disintegrate and merge back into earth. What kept the body together. It was soul (part of that Shabd).

Similarly what keeps planets rotating around sun and not colliding into it. What keeps electrons vibrating around nucleus in atom .

It’s the Universal shabd.

That’s why they say God is universal. It permeates everything.
when God (shabd) will pull out its force from this physical world, there will be Universal catastrophe. (Judgement day – Bible, ‘Parlay’ – Vedas).

The elements long held back by forces would collide and everything would go ‘poof’. The whole physical world would merge back into that universal Vibration(shabd).

The elements in the Iron piece above would not anymore have that force to keep it together. The most basic constituents of it (that science has been able to measure) will go their way and merge back into shabad.

The world was made out of it, the world will merge back into it.

Therefore that shabd is our natural home. We don’t have to wait till that universal catastrophe to happen to go back there. We can go back today and thus save ourselves anymore sufferings.

[Roger]

gaurav,

Nice collection of statements,

"That formless God has been described as a the ultimate source of light and sound(universal vibration) 'shabd'."

---Described through meditation? Does one need to evolve through astral planes to find this description? Is the Sach Kan(sp?) the final astral plane where the descriptions become clear and complete?

"Our souls are also lights (vibration) which has to merge back."
--At what point does one know that the Soul needs to merge back? Could one know through meditation the reason for merging back?

"Therefore that shabd is our natural home. We don’t have to wait till that universal catastrophe to happen to go back there. We can go back today and thus save ourselves anymore sufferings."

--How could one go back today? Could this be done without the Initiation process? If I eat a steak(medium rare) this morning, is there time to go back today? Seems like I may need a week or two.

I'm not finding fault, however, your statements seem like they have been taught to you. Nothing wrong with classroom training. You seem to be well trained.

[George]

If you have studied science, you will be aware of the standard particle model - which describes all known elementary particles and forces at the subatomic level. This model has been updated even smaller particles are discovered. The electron and its mass has been known for just over a century (Thomson). Electrons are held in orbit by a known force called the electromagnetic force, which also binds atoms to form molecules - Physics 101 - all known.

String theory is relatively unknown, it is not wholly accepted science since for one thing it cannot reconcile general relativity with the quantum.

Light is wholly different from sound since it exhibit simultaneous wave-particle properties resulting in one of science's greatest puzzles.

Anyway, your metaphorical explanation is probably fine for an RS layman, but it is no way scientific. To be scientific, someone would need to have identified the soul, i.e. have proof for its existence like Thomson had for the electron.

[tucson]

I said to you Gurav:

"At least you admit it is faith. If you are comfortable with that faith who should argue with you, except those who you hope to convince of the correctness of your faith?"

In your response you said:

"I acknowledge your efforts to take my statements one by one and offer your counterviews on same.Thank you,But am sorry that I can take them just at literature level and not beyond this forum.It is in my self-interest. Because I dont want to carry any baggage of emboldened ego(by winning debates/arguments) or bad after taste in mouth or mind. These are detrimental on my path of faith."

Gaurav, after saying that you still continue to preach Sant Mat dogma on this blog as if it is fact. This is a blog, not a satsang, and people are going to be inclined to question your statements. That is the nature of a blog.

What you really want is for everyone to accept that dogma and not challenge your statements. This is a form of "emboldened ego" as you put it, because you continue to preach (insist upon or defend) your beliefs without supporting them with any evidence. All you are doing is presenting more dogma. Please understand the word "dogma". Look it up.

What has happened is that some of our questions and comments have challenged your faith and you have taken a defensive position by saying you don't want to argue when, in fact, that is exactly what you are doing.

However, you are selective in the comments you address, taking only the ones you think you have answers to and ignoring the tough ones.

You hide behind the guise of your statement above saying your only purpose here is:

"Because I wish to express my solidarity with my fellow seekers who are in the waters of mysticism but suffer pangs of wavering faith just like me."

Gaurav, there are not many of your fellow seekers in the Sant Mat faith on this blog because their statements of blind faith and religious/cult dogma are continually challenged here. Remember, this is the "Church of the Churchless" blog. This is not a comfortable place for those who preach faith.

I suggest that you take your master's advice and attend to your simran and bhajan where he says all your doubts will be resolved. Preaching here will only get responses that challenge your faith and weaken your resolve to do the work you have been enjoined to do...meditation.

Best Wishes

[Roger]

tucson,

Maybe if Gaurav were to write a comment, in his own words, regarding the RSSB meditation process, there could be some informative exchanges. Just simple conversation, nothing more.

[gaurav]

Roger and Tucson

Thank you.

Best Wishes.

[gaurav]

I am sorry I meant George not roger by mistake on post earlier.

You see this was the hangover I was fearing about. Anyways. Thank you Guys.

George I am not classroom trained on the matter as you put it. RS does not produces any prechers for net. In fact sometime back they discouraged followers against creating forums on orkut, blogs etc.

I am relatively new seeker(initiated 22 dec 2009) on the path. I had my own struggle before I gave up alchol.nonveg to come on this path. The theory that I posted above was my own which I figured out to build my initial faith to see me through the initial most difficult phase to reach the eyecenter.

Anyways.

thank you. Best wishes.

[Juan]

Gaurav, you said,

Gurinder Singh / Charan Singh are the masters who have merged themselves with Shabad.

Few years ago in a Q&A session, a satsangi asked Don Gurinder Singh that why his father suffered so much at the time of death, though he had been meditating for years and was merged in the Shabad, the reply was.. how can you know that he was merged in the shabad...brother we don't have the capacity to know whether one is merged in the shabad.

imo this reveals that even the master doesn't have the capacity to know whether he or anybody else is merged in the shabad.

How could you know that these masters have merged in the shabad, is it because they have a big number of followers,they have the proper authorisation of the organization,their way of dresssing,their beard, their behaviour, or you have been inside and verified.

[George]

Guarav

Thank you for your views in any case. To me at least Sant Mat is new and i like to listen to the stuff even if its preachy, tho some others are perhaps sick of it.

However, correction is needed where science is misrepresented.

Why not just say why RS is a different method of insight into our reality then science? - but instead RS is often passed off as a science, when clearly it is not. It may provide far more important truths then science, but when claims are made without proof, ppl will question.

[tucson]

Gaurav,

I was initiated in 1970, but have not been involved with Sant Mat since about 17-18 years ago.

Since you are new to the path of Sant Mat it is my suggestion to you that you obey your master's recommendation not to engage in debate or website discussions about the path. Maybe you have already decided to do this because your reply above was brief which I think was a wise decision.

These discussions will only serve to weaken your resolve at a time when it needs to be strong. Give the path your best effort and see what happens. Be honest with yourself.

Again,

Best Wishes

[gaurav]

Masters GIHF/ Lack of GIHF (God in Human Form)

Very relevant aspect that puzzle all of us. I just share my perspective on these. Its not absolutely black& white or 0 and 1 like that. Maybe Like in subject of philosophy there are just shades of opinion not absolutely 1+1=2 as perhaps in science. ( as rightly pointed out by George & Roger)
So my statements are for your open scrutiny. Further I heed to Tucson advice that I should not expect my views to be accepted as the fact as such.

In terms of proofs I would be only able to highlight certain general observable points and some testimonials ( personal). However acceptance of these as such is open to individual discretion.

------------------------------

Let me use certain concepts as acronyms for sake of my writing. helping me in my articulation.

One relevant Universal law relevant to the topic is
1. Action/Reaction (A/R) cycle

Philosophy-

Just like Gravity, A/R is the other most binding law operating in this plane of existence. Science has been able to surpass Gravity accelerating at 9.84 m/sec sq (albeit with help of rocket).

But with relation to A/R – Science is no where near existence of this concept. They are at best only able to provide temporary relief/postponement of Results. Eg Medical science providing half baked so called cures to the innumerable types of diseases affecting mankind.

Mystics and masters follow these laws for even themselves while they exist on this plane of reality. Please read above the earlier post “What Mystics have done for Humanity”.

Observable points-

a. We see the consistency in the behavior and message of the Mystics through the ages. They have been behaving strangely. Although they claimed to be from God but they in general didn’t come on this plane to interfere in the natural laws here. In other words they are not found flying/teleporting themselves or performing any other miracles. Jesus did not save himself or his disciples from horrifying cruxification. At the same time they were not afraid to embrace death (by human standard) for sake of something (truth)not visible to us . Similarly the sikh Gurus.

b. While Initiation, the RS people specifically warn people not to practice meditations for acquiring any miracle powers. They say that we attain access to powers (supernatural by human standards) but we should never fall in the temptation of trying, using them or even discussing them. Swallow the things as mercy, more mercy would be bestowed.

Personal Testimonial –

One of my Uncle (very pious samartian) wished me good luck after my initiation. He gave me certain meditation tips. Then suddenly he turned somber. Very ruefully he warned me not to discuss even with spouse any of the experiences I achieve after hard work of meditation. He almost cried that he lost his hard work when he started arguing with people on basis of his experiences inside. Now he says he sits in meditation but he dose’nt have the same access. He burns in the fire of repentance and asks for forgiveness.

My Personal conclusion-

Why was his progress stopped just by his discussion of things outside? Because ‘shabd’ stopped his greed taking over him at the initial stage itself. Because tomorrow when he attains more powers he would be tempted to interfere with natural laws around him. Eg . forecasting for people, curing their disease. Its for his betterment only. Because his larger goal is something else not to perform any miracles here and gather any followers.

This is enough for me personally to build my faith and excite me to take my meditation in right earnest. Albeit I should rightfully earn everything and not expect miracles. I have to honour A/R cycle.I should not expect explaination for every trouble that affects in my life even after my initiation. Unless I find for myself the truths through meditation. And i should not misuse my acquired access. i should be secretive.its for disciples own good.

contd.....

[gaurav]

Masters Lack of GIHF

Philosphy-
Everyone sees the master in the color of glasses he/she is wearing!
Why there is big variance in the perception people have about the same very Master?

There have been the worst of critics and still there are those who just don’t know anything else but him.

This is due to certain problems affecting us all but to varying degrees like-

1. Arrogant misplaced faith. (AMF)
2. Running like Rest. (RLR)
3. Not Doing Basics. (NDB)

Personal experience-

When I was being brought into this RS fold by my family, I was given a high, by the dose of preaching that we perhaps are the luckiest set of people in the whole cosmos who have come to know and following of the only supreme presence possible on this earth. How nothing can ever go wrong with us.

Yes, Preachers (my father/mom in my case) can go overboard for the sake of their faith.
With this high arrogant attitude I headed to Beas. On the way I looked with disdain at poor souls lined up before Gurudwaras, Temple , churches. I thought, poor fellows what they are going to get over there in structures. I at least have the presence of supreme lord. (such stupid arrogance of mine) (AMF)

At Beas in my misplaced over- excitement I tried to jump wall to run after Babajis car. Why? Because everyone else was doing same.(RLR)
And I thought that I can’t just afford to miss this opportunity to see that GOD and possibly touch him. But alas, I fell and hurt myself. After that I spent all the time in Beas limping. And limping I headed back home. My wounded ego and sullen face. If I was running for sake of the GIHF why the hell he allowed me to fall and have nasty bruise?
The stupidity/ ignominity of my AMF is laughable by some other peoples standards. But In general I observe that we all suffer from same. The very topic of this forum “Did I see God in first class’ belongs to same very category.

Other kinds of misplaced faith/expectation people have-

1. Where’s the halo behind the master (GIHF)?
2. Why the master sneezed now, why he caught flu if he is GIHF?
3. Why didn’t he save my child from drowning?
4. Why he forgot the name, things if he is GIHF and knows all?

I had many personal AMFs during my shaky period. Until I thought otherwise.

Observable point-
1. I carefully listened to discourses of Babaji. Did he ever promised me to fulfill any of my AMFs. On the contrary they repeatedly say don’t have wrong expectations of changing things/miracles.

Babaji himself never proclaimed himself to be any GIHF. He is consistently only trying to point at one thing – meditate for yourself, become the master yourself. He is not saying or doing anything to excite people or wow the crowd. Still people are flocking to him only to hear the same thing.

2. It’s the crowd ( RLR) which never tires of proclaiming him GIHF. It’s the collective AMF.

But theres another thing about this collective faith – there is tiny 1% minority which actually are able to see him in GIHF because they have advanced in their practice and can actually see him with different glasses. The rest majority 99% just do RLR. Just build the hype of GIHF with plain words but not doing actual basics. (NDB)

Personal Testimonial –

I am a new initiate and when I sit in meditation I feel the need for him.

When I try to cut my attention from infinite things in this world to absolute zero I need some support. I consciously try to hand over the reins of my brain to Soul away from Mind. But Mind troubles me a lot. Then I can actually feel the soul taking over the charge and making my mind busy in simran.
But Then I see nothing but darkness when I close my eyes. I need something to contemplate. Since am trying to contemplate about something I have not seen I need some representation. Its natural for me to contemplate on my masters face.

Like a camera which is short focused now,. If it has to see some landscape far it takes reference of some object belong in that landscape to adjust its lenses.

Similarly I need to adjust my contemplation /lense and bring Masters face(specifically his eyes) into my focus. Why only master, because of my initial faith (built on the basis of observations above) that he belongs to that landscape where I have to reach.
I cannot contemplate on image of Sylvester stellone (although I love him) because his contemplation only takes me to Hollywood.

But am such a rookie/raw in my practice that am not able to this simple thing-

“Busy off mind in simran and bring focus on Masters face to bring myself into state of absolute zero.” Because anything worth experiencing would happen only after that.

With consistent practice (only of 15 days as of now) the body below has started to become numb. The contemplated picture of master has started improving. It’s becoming more sharper. The sharper the image and focus is becoming sharper. Its cyclic- The stronger the faith becomes- Stronger is the practice- the Stronger becomes the desire to refresh my memory by having his physical darshan (not photo).

Am keenly looking forward to visit Beas on 14th Feb for public discourse. And for first time I know I’ll be observing him with a true seekers eye. Not with any of my AMFs. I know it’s the hard work and its only me who has to do hardwork for myself. I know he is the GIHF for me because his contemplation is helping me in my efforts.

Not doing Basics ( NDB) – The Collective failure/ Disillusionment of people

In my personal opinion majority (99%) sangat in Beas itself seem to suffer from this AMF/RLR/NDB.
Master himself said in one of the Sundays public satsang that not even 1% sangat present there truly follows the right approach and practices (meditation)on the path.

So kind of 99% people are carrying AMF without substance. (my personal humble guess about figures for sake of philosphy)
In fact I have seen some of the most arrogant souls in some locational RS preachers and the volunteers at dera. While there are humble 1% prople who humbly carry on their sewa.

Personal Testimonial-

My cousin narrated me experience of meeting a humble pious sewadar(volunteer) humbly doing his sewa. He came to know that gentleman is one of the super rich of his city. For two days he leaves the business with his employees and comes to dera doing duty at Gate - opening and closing gates for vehicals. At times when gates are closed and no vehical is supposed to come, he without any instructions picks up a mop and silently goes on to clean the toilets near the gate. All the while he is doing simran (repetation).

Personal Conclusion-

Now when any problem/crisis comes on these people there will be difference in how they react to situation. The first 99% would run away and pray Master to save their ass. No miracle happened, poof the most vocal former preachers would become the worst critic of him.
The 1% disciple who had been doing real sewa (meditation/ simran) all through their peaceful times would say Master give me strength to face the problem. Give me the courage so that I can firmly stand WITH YOU.
And they would have built the character in the times of peace which would see them through the crisis because they have done their hardwork. They have built the substance. They wont beg God or Master to intervene in their cases (A/R cycle) and set things right. They honorably brace themselves to be strong to face the action/Reactions. They rightfully earn their place besides the Master.
------------------------------------------

Who have progressed on their spiritual path? The 1% because they have overcome their shortcomings of AMF+RLR+ NDB and they have come to know about overall scheme of things. They will calmly accept A/R cycle. They know things yet they keep silent. From our standard they would start behaving strangely!

[Roger]

Separating the 1%-ers from the 99%-ers sounds rather silly. What is the percentage(of the 100%) that are the Gift of Gabbers, Dog and Pony Show specialists, and Carneval Barkers? I'm not an initiate of the RSSB, however the 1% and 99% really should be merged together into the 100%-ers. Just keep it 100% and believe what you desire.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Gaurav,

Every argument has an counter argument. It is the dual nature of this world. Nothing is absolute.

" Gur ko manas jante te Nar Kahia Andh
Dukhi Rahain Sansar Main Aage Jam Ka
Fand".

Are you in confusion somewhere of your path. Be stead fast and hold on to it.

This blog is very good particularly the Blogger Brian's efforts.

with love,

[gaurav]

Rakesh

Every argument has an counter argument. It is the dual nature of this world. Nothing is absolute.
---------------------------------------

Yes Rakesh I agree with your statement above duality is the only absolute thing existing on this plane.

Yes this blog is truly very nice effort indeed.I have been reading through many of the topics here. This particular topic "Did I see God in first class" for some reason compelled to share my prespective.

My objective is not to argue here. I have tried to modify my language accordingly as per feedback.

No I dont think I am in any kind of confusion about the path.

Thanks for your concern mate.

[sapient]

Gaurav, you seems like a genuine and intelligent person who is looking for meaning beyond this life. All these cult organisations are only looking for genuine people like you and do everything to make it more appealing to you. I am nobody to advise you but be careful while treading on any such path. Make sure to keep your mental balance. This repetition of simran while doing other chores of life can make you insane and if you don't get any results (so called darshan) in meditation, you will slowly start getting various anxiety disorders. These meditation theories are just mind plays and are trick to attract genuine people in cults.
you will be going in circles very soon: "Master, why cant i meditate? ...do your simran..Master, why i cant i sit for 15 minutes...do your simran...master, why i am so anxious and cant enjoy anything in life...surrender and do your simran....and slowly an another cultic initiate is created who shuns his intellect and surrenders completely to the cult and most of the time become like the 99% you just described'

[Blogger Brian]

gaurav, I like your rather analytical attitude toward Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru devotion, including these insights:

"1. Arrogant misplaced faith. (AMF)
2. Running like Rest. (RLR)
3. Not Doing Basics. (NDB)"

I wonder, though, if your belief that 1% of initiates know through direct experience that Gurinder Singh is God in Human Form (GIHF) isn't also an example of AMF.

How do you know this? Not just the 1% figure, but that anyone at all knows the guru is GIHF? Isn't this as much a matter of blind faith as is the conviction of so many Christians that Jesus walks with them, talks with them, and is their savior?

Would you also say that 1% of Buddhists are enlightened? That 1% of Taoists are one with the Tao? That 1% of Muslims are in touch with the true teachings of Allah? Given that all religions consider their faith to be genuine, as compared to other misguided dogmas, why is the supposed 1% realization of RSSB initiates more valid than the supposed 1% realization of devotees of other religions, spiritual paths, and mystical philosophies?

I understand that you enjoy the atmosphere surrounding the guru, and the good works that initiates do. Keep in mind, though, that lots of people perform "selfless service." Many are agnostics or atheists, while others are doing charitable acts in the name of countless different faiths and religions.

Morality is different from truth. Feeling good is different from knowing reality.

[gaurav]

Roger Brian wrote:
I wonder, though, if your belief that 1% of initiates know through direct experience that Gurinder Singh is God in Human Form (GIHF) isn't also an example of AMF.
How do you know this? Not just the 1% figure, but that anyone at all knows the guru is GIHF? Isn't this as much a matter of blind faith as is the conviction of so many Christians that Jesus walks with them, talks with them, and is their savior?

--------------------------------

Yes Brian, I admit the above thing is nothing but my belief. This could very well prove to be the biggest AMF blunder on my part about my life. Its only me who would be responsible for same.
But I have reasons to believe otherwise.

Some indicators as such.

Don’t we Human anyways have to carry on their lives as such on the basis of some beliefs(decisions).On this plane of duality, the risk of AMF rests with every action. how? as follows-

In nature we observe that living things below the Humans:

(Insects, birds, animals ) seem to be following a very programmed life.

Plants – Miserable. They only know photosynthesis.

Insects- alas they atleast move around. But put a cockroach in observation chamber only thing it’s doing is going round in circles moving its antenna.

Cold blooded creatures /In vertebrates - they are absolutely cold to any form of perceptible intelligence. Try making friends with snake. Feed it milk from one hand. The next moment it comes to bite you on your other hand. Poor creatures cant figure out things. Try making friendship with Fishes , sharks. feed it now the next it comes to feed on you.

Warm Blooded creatures/Mammals – These chaps are atleast warm to some sort of contact. Dog has made reputation of being the best friend of man. Lions, Tigers are also sort of domesticated by the ring master. dolphin ( the mammal) behaves differently from shark. It responds with some form of intelligence to Human contacts.

But in general all these creatures above seem to follow only the predestined instincts feeded in them since their birth. Does the God exist for them? Is their monotonous kind of life they live is the way want God wants them to Live?

From our Humans view may be yes (If I believein God) or may be no (I don’t believe in Gods existence, &anyways nature is different form GOD)

But from non-human creature perspective they all seem to be very consistent in their behavior. There are some unexplained instincts, compass for them to exist their truths of life.

-----------------------

But alas there seems to be no absolute instincts for us to follow?
Why we are not able to find/follow the predestined instincts if we also belong to the same very nature.

Why the duality comes when the behavior /thinking of Humans comes into picture?
there exists duality in our perception of things which makes us think and behave differently. Make us confused. Why we have to always decide for ourselves to exist?

I see it like this that We are cursed in a way by having duality in our perception.
All through the day we live life on the basis of beliefs.

Iam hungry. What should I eat?
Iam sleepy. where should I sleep? how much should I sleep?
Iam taking up this career because I believe I will succed here.
Iam marrying her/him because I believe our marriage will last.
Iam searching for answer here because I believe I will find the answer.
I am searching for truth because I believe I will find it.

So decisions / beliefs are very much intrinsic parts of our miserable/confused existence.Its seems to be the only starting point for every aspect. We arrived there or not is something that only comes after efforts following belief.

Is it that, our behavior and actions over the ages /generations has further and further brought us away from that natural instinct order.
That order, truth still exists but our intellect/consciousness/perception has come so far away from it that we are not able to see truth.

I think the best alternative / proof to form the basis of my decision (belief) should be to trace back.
--------------------------------
But there are advices from contemporary set of people who conveniently want to save themselves hard work of finding back ( my belief).

Either, They look for natural order in the manmade things (science, born out of duality thinking)

or best of all be agnostic (no beliefs, so no trouble of finding answers).

I ignore these….

But Let ,me use the very intellect which has brought me further and further away from Truth.

Use the Maps to find trail back. Maps In our case- the various religious books, the most ancient Vedas,bible,Koran,the writings of mysics. Ignore the differences the mis-interpretations that have creeped into descriptions over the ages by the different generations. In any case old maps are supposed to get torn, disfigured ,discolored over the long times.

What I figured out was:

Its my personal belief (decision) today that

I found RS philosophy ,message, practice,intention most consistent with ancient maps. It would be arrogance on my part to proclaim that it’s the only true map. But yes I am on one among best path. I would need hell lot of patience, persistence and faith to travel the longggg journey back. Best thing here is that there are signposts, milestones (the levels in meditation) on the path to encourage me and the promise of a guide (Master) to accompany me from the station.

Now which is that station (the first encouragement) – Its the eye center.

Tommorow let me suppose that Guide didn’t turn up at the station, he tricked me. (Master is not true).This risk is there but still I think its worth reaching the station.

Why its worth spending efforts reaching the station?
Which part of Human body has found all the answers (Gravity, Relativity) found till now by the greatest Human scientists?
It’s the head. And pay attention to this fact that it was possible because they concentrated with their hand on the forehead. What does this indicate that all the answers lie here at the human forehead, specifically at the eye center(station) . It certainly still contains many more unexplored treasures!
Now to find answers to things which we can witness or understand with our present senses like- why the apple falls on the ground?
We use references of things in this plane of truth. We contemplate on things of this world to find answers related to them. And Humans have just used 5-10% of mind to find answers to these.
Now what if take this concentration/contemplation to a higher level. I.e. we shut out our senses, we dull our external thoughts to the point that everything becomes still in our mind absolutely. (possible in meditation)
We are bound to discover/ understand something that is hidden from us till now!
This is moment when our that consciousness (dead till now) awakens. and then it has infinite things to explore / find.

Theoretically I would like to summarise as follows:

Bring the mind scattered ∞ in this world to
absolute 0
then I have ∞ things to explore at other end.