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March 10, 2005


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nice post.. my wife is also an initiate and we have family friends who also preach at the Sunday satsang. I share the skepticism that you have. I personally believe that to say that a Guru/Master or God will "help" you vs another human being .. just because you utter his/her name or do the routine "prescribed"... then he/she/it would be a CORRUPT Master or God.

To understand this - take the case of a Judge who is sitting in judgment.. "God" - once when he was in the legislative garb - created the laws .. that govern him/it as well... now either he/it works as an executive or judiciary. At best he can dispassionately "interpret" the laws.. not "over-rule" them in your favor!! So really.. whatever you do is your karma and you face it... God or Masters can at best help in pointing the way out..nothing more nothing less... any thing more would make them corrupt and basically dishonest! He just interprets the law He wrote when he was in the legislative garb .. and hands out your dole.. no wonder Krishna tells Arjun that to lust or long for the fruit of your Karma is useless.. because you cannot affect it in ONE go.. what you get is kind of a Moving Average of past Karmas...

There is an interesting conversation between Swami venkatesananda and J Krishnamurti in "Awakening of Intelligence" on what can a Guru actually do? Very instructive!

Also please read Vasistha Yoga by Swami Venkatesananda - get it from Amazon or B&N: best book on "Dharma" I have read.

- desh

Necesito contactar directamente con Sr. Héctor Esponda.Me seria de gran ayuda poder conseguir su dirección de E.mail personal.

Necesitaria contactar con el Sr.Hector Esponda.Les agradeceria una dirección de correo,telf.,e-mail,o en otro caso,tengan a bien de reenviarle este mensaje.
Muchas gracias.

With regards! You seem to be engulfed in a subtle conflict.Self that we are seeking is nothing but shadow of God, if that is the name we give to omnipresent energy. And the same self is there within the guru or whatever living being is there in the universe.Only difference with the Guru is that he has realized and experianced this.When you are looking towards such a guru, you are not seeking from 'another person' but the same self.This is the essence of spiritual philosophy, and if we have doubts in this regard ,we can't claim to be understanding the basic philosophy.

Navyug, we seem to agree. The true self of the guru also is the true self of the disciple. So there is only one true Master, the self. That was the point I tried to make in this post.

The problem, from my experience, is that people mistake the physical form of a guru, or the mental form of a guru, for the spiritual form of a guru.

We can't directly experience the spiritual form ("soul"), but we can see the physical form and hear the utterances of the mental form. So those outward appearances come to be revered, not the true self of the guru--which also is the true self of everyone.

This leads disciples outward rather than inward. It causes them to think that they need to chase after the guru's physical or mental form, rather than to realize their own spiritual form.

Lastly, we don't know whether or not the guru has realized his or her true self. We can only guess, based on outward appearances and the testimony/guesses of others. That's why masters often say, "How do you know I'm not a fraud?"

Answer: we don't. So the truth has to be sought within ourselves, not within anyone else.


Ravi, I agree with you. That's about all I ever say on this weblog, in one fashion or another: truth has to be experienced before it can be trusted as truth.

I'm no longer willing to trust words, especially other people's words--the words in a holy book, the words of a holy person. I don't know whether those words are backed up by actual experience.

I do know where my own words come from, because I'm directly experiencing my own experience. My words come from my experience (or lack of experience).

A question: if words only get us words, then what is the purpose of repeating a mantra--which is simply a word or words? My answer: it isn't the words that we're after, it is what is repeating the words. Consciousness, or some would say, soul.

Dear brian,
U have followed the path for 35 years.U should know very well that what u call a mantra is only a tool to collect your scattered conciousness(OR ATTENTION) at the eye centre,and that this is the only use of that mantra.The only way to find out the genuineness of the mantra is by putting it to use.
Now allow me to use one of the quotes from ur own book "Life is fair ,u get only what u deserve,to deserve more happiness,
BECOME MORE DESERVING".So the key here is to become more deserving.To become more deserving u need to put in enough time,that is a minimum of 2 and 1/2 hours into ur meditation.I have read in one of ur articles on this site that u meditate for 1 hour daily.JUST ONE HOUR.Do u think it is enough,when it is explicitly stated that a minimum of 2 nd 1/2 hours is required.
In the book sience of the soul Maharaj Jagat singh states that even after 2and 1/2 hours of meditation daily the mind is heavily weighed on the side of the world,which implies that 2 nd1/2 hours is the bare minimum.
I urge u to focus all ur attention to increase the time that u put in meditition
coz if u really want results u have to put in adequate effort.U will not experience things(inside) just because u give sermons at a local satsang or because u have written books on sant mat.U or for that matter anyone will only see things if u deserve to by virtue of practice...
SHABD GURU SURAT CHELA which means the real guru is the sahbd,the creative power,
and the real deciple is the surat(ATTENTION,OR CONCIOUSNESS).The shabd is watching every second where the attention is flowing(inward and upward,or downward and outward).On the basis of this observation it will deside what u deserve to see when.
Therefore in my opinion,yes its only my opinion that u should focus ur attention on the words given by your master and test them for yourself and put in more effort in meditition...

Ravi, thanks for the advice. But, as with all advice, it has to make sense and fit with the experience of the advisee--which may be quite different from whether it makes sense and fits with the experience of the advisor.

For more than thirty years I followed your advice to the letter. Almost. I can't say that I meditated as instructed for 2 and 1/2 hours, but it was either that or close to that for most of that time.

So I've done the experiment. I've tried out the approach. I've conducted the testing. That's an undeniable fact.

The question for me now is, should I keep on doing what I've been doing for another 35 years? Or, more likely, until I die. That doesn't seem like either a reasonable or scientific approach to me.

If your experiment isn't showing the results you expect, then (1) either your hypothesis is flawed (for example, that God exists), or (2) you need to modify your experiment. I've chosen the second approach.

I'm tinkering with my meditation and attitude toward sprituality in an attempt to get different results. This strikes me as an eminently devoted thing to do, because I really want to know, not merely expect that I'll know one day. If that day never comes to be, it is useless to me.

There are many paths to God. The present RSSB master himself, Gurinder Singh Dhillon (Baba Ji), says this. An initiate recently wrote to me, "What a relief it was to hear BBJ say that 'this is not the only path. There are many paths to...' God-Realization or whatever was the precise term he used."

So why do so many initiates cling to one way when there are many ways? One person's way may not be someone else's way. Flexibility and openness is the key, in my opinion.

Ravi ---


This statement is backwards. Experience may lead to Knowledge. (not the other way around) True Knowledge does not produce experience. True Knowledge transcends experience, intellect, and mind. Mere experience is not the goal. True Knowledge, is itself the goal. True Knowledge is itself the state of Enlightenment, Realization, Liberation.




Dear brian,

U say that if u have sat for 2 1/2 hrs or so almost all the time u are giving a vague ans.U dont have to reply to me,u have to be honest to yourself.Was it 2 1/2 hrs of constant unwavering attention daily.
Ask yourself and be very honest.
if u are honest enough to say u have no inner experience,u must be honest enough to admit that your lack of constant sustained
unwavering attention at the eye centre could be the reason.U dont even mention that as a possibility.It is an extremely hard thing to do and pls at least admit it.
Read the histroy of any enlightened soul
and they reached their enlightenment only after putting in numerous hours everyday in meditation with one pointed dedication and determination.
dont u think if the time that u r putting in is not enough u should try to put in more time.It is all about lack of enough effort,lack of enough effort,lack of enough effort.
as for the comment made by babaji he said "this is not the only path,it is one of the paths"
He says this(my opinion) to strike at the arrogance of many satsangis who feel that they are superior.
Many satsangis cling on to this path coz after a lot of concideration,it was the only path that appealed to both reason and intuition.,and even if they are not getting results in meditation they are honest enough to acknowledge that their sustained effort is lacking.

Mr tao,
i am not preaching or at least i am not intending to,i am only expressing my opinion.
I would also want to ask you sir is why does one go to school,is it not to attain knowledge and does not that knowledge lead one to work where one gains experience.So is not some basic knowledge leading to experience.If you are right then there should be no schools and specialized colleges. If you want to be a doctor,engineer etc u need to go to specially places to attain knowledge,and only after that experience comes.

I cant stand people like Ravi. He is a believer. IS ANYONE LISTENING TO WHAT BRIAN SAYS? HE DID THE PRACTICE FOR 35 YEARS!!!!! NO RESULTS. Good job BRian. Move on. Sorry my post was like 2 years late.

I just found this blog. Most interesting. I have been in RS since 1980. So many changes since then. I don't class myself as a RS follower anymore - because I have found enlightenment WITHOUT meditation. I followed ardently for many years, not just RS, but Ruhani Satsang and personally met with the many Masters. RS has become a religion - with people following blindly and trusting without any results. Baba Gurinder is getting people to wake up - but as usual - nobody listens. I actually have a lot of respect for the dude. I think what he is doing is very powerful. He has changed RS to bring it towards enlightenment and away from regions. The book LIVING MEDITATION is a reflection of this. You will find stories and ideas there that have never been stated in RS before. Stull trying to figure out who Hector Esponda Dubin is. I am known to RS because everyone thinks I am the greatest idiot becasue I question BabaJi (but I enver really have a question - I simply state a difference viewpoint and invite comments). The question arises as to why I bother. Last time BabaJi asked me what the point was, and I said that point is that there is no point. Awakening shows you that there is no point - you are deluded in thinking that you are trying to get somewhere. Actually you are already enlightened - but you are asleed to your true nature. Meditation can also become a barrier to truth if it becomes a ritual. In zen they say that meditation will NOT take you to truth. Nothing will - it is your nature. The most helpful thing is the company of an enlightened person - who will affect the way you think and live. the masses will never find the truth - becasue they just want to follow blindly.

If RS was legitimate, why would it need to be changed at all by anyone? If Gurinder were honest, he would put an end to this whole RS charade today and come clean instead of perpetuating this illusory path.

"Which is why all masters but one—the Self—are false. The self is what we are seeking. Not the self of someone else. Our own self. When we expect that looking outward to another person or being will put us in touch with the truth that mystics say is within, clearly we’re misguided."

This is so concisely put that it bears calling out. I think this should be posted in courtrooms and legislative halls for everyone to read . . .

Harjap wrote:

"Baba Gurinder is getting people to wake up..."


"I actually have a lot of respect for the dude."

And you so misguided.

"He has changed RS to bring it towards enlightenment and away from regions."


"The book LIVING MEDITATION is a reflection of this."

Bullshit. There is no "enlightenment" in books.

"You will find stories and ideas there that have never been stated in RS before."


"I am known to RS because everyone thinks I am the greatest idiot becasue I question BabaJi"

That's stupid. Why do you even bother going to RS meetings at all? What's the point? Who gives a dman what GSD says. The guy is nothing but a fraud, because if he had any sense or integrity, he would end the charade.

"The question arises as to why I bother."

Yes, I just asked you that question.

"I said that point is that there is no point. Awakening shows you that there is no point - you are deluded in thinking that you are trying to get somewhere. Actually you are already enlightened..."

That's just a bunch of words. However, the point is: If what you say is true, then why are you bothering to be involved with RS and/or GSD at all?

"The most helpful thing is the company of an enlightened person"

Your so-called "enlightened person" is bullshit. There is no "enlighjtenment".

"...who will affect the way you think and live."

Whatever you think does not matter. Like it or not, Life is just happening.

"the masses will never find the truth"

Thats bullshit. There is no "truth" to find. There is only life to be lived.

I suggest that you wise up and get out of your head, and quit wasting your precious time debating or challenging about RS or Zen or any of the rest of it. Going to RS meetings and trying to be a wise-ass isn't getting you anywhere. The people there (including their phony guru) are all brainwashed, and you think you are proving something, but actually you are a fool for even getting involved in the first place, much less going back again and again.

No offense, but thats just my opinion, so you can take it or leave it.

Oh Tao, you really are a troubled person aren't you?

It is you that is full of 'bullshit'.

Why the hell do YOU spend your time constantly abusing/debating anyone who says anything remotely positive about RS?

Why do you say 'enlightenment is a myth', even though a year or so ago you claimed to be a 'jnani' over at RSS as Soamianami?

Is it perhaps because, quite simply, YOU are not 'enlightened', and don't the REALITY of it that exists for many people? Your ignorance does not reality make.

Harjap has got the balls to question Gurinder on the RS theology in front of tens of thousands of believers (including his own family), bluntly, openly, whilst many make vocal their scorn. He has been associated, and believed, and been a satsang speaker, and spent personal time with various RS gurus. The ONLY person I know of who has done/does this.

What was your association with RS again? Oh yeah, NONE.

You are just a confused & misguided fellow who likes to *meaninglessly* abuse and dismiss anybody who mentions RS under various pseudonyms on the faceless internet. A cheapshot artist.

Your spiritual knowledge amounts to little more than an ability to imitate and use google.

So put your uninformed dismissives back in their case, and give some breathing room to some GENUINE voices.

Perhaps Tao is at times, shall we say, a bit terse, but what the hell. In the face of blatant, unsupported dogma it is tempting at times to just say "bullshit" and leave it at that. True, some may be offended by this, but a blunt, in your face remark can sometimes serve as a wake-up call. However, I agree that often more clarification and refinement is necessary than an expletive. I think Tao has his place in the scheme of things. Others can take the role of being politely verbose if they feel so inclined.

Hi Tucson, I can feel what you're saying. However, I think Tao amounts to little more than a sophisticated internet troll.

Firstly, Tao has admitted he has never believed in RS dogma anyway. Indeed, even his claims of knowledge of RS dogma are totally unsubstantiated and remain merely claims.

Also, to what extent does somebody who posts up various other unsupported dogma, such as praise of the Hare Krishna movement, really have an insight into the BS of RS dogma? It's like a Islamic believer posting profanities on a Christian website; irrelevant, trollish, and lacking true insight.

More to the point, in this particular case, Tao is responding to somebody who not only sees through the BS of RS dogma, but somebody who intelligently and face to face in front of tens of thousands of believers questions Gurinder precisely on that dogma.

That, imo, is exponentially more productive, honorable, courageous, integral, mature etc, than posting mindless abuse at a spiritual guru whilst hiding behind the anonymity of a pseudonym on the internet. (but then, I really don't think Tao is genuine enough to hold a conversation in real time. He'd probably get battered even by Gurinder, right?).

Also, why does Tao bother wasting HIS time debating RS dogma? He never even believed it! What's his real motivation? To look big? Without passion, heart or knowledge for the subject, he remains a troll.

Also, I can assure you that Harjap is more 'enlightened' and knowledgeable of 'spiritual' subjects than Tao in every way possible. And I mean that in the sense we would both agree (I have read and agree with your other posts on this forum). I would make a bet Harjap believes in far less BS dogma than Tao does.

I hope you can understand why I found Tao's post here utterly ridiculous, and in fact defeating of the very purpose he *claims* to have?


#1. I will criticise RS as much as I like. So get used to it

#2. Enlightenment is in fact a myth.

#3. You are a liar. I have never ever clamed to be a "jnani".

#4. No one is "enlightened". Only the ignorant think otherwise.

#5. Hartap may mean well, and I am certainly glad that he has wised up, but until he completely lets go of his involvement with RS in any fasion, he still remains a lingering RS tit-sucker.

#6. Fyi, my initiation and formal association with RS, Charan, and the Dera began in the 1970s and totally ended in 1990.

#7. You are just a confused & misguided fellow who cannot handle anybody who criticises RS.

#8. Your spiritual knowledge amounts to little more than stale-air.

#9. Your voice is clearly like that of a circus fool.


#1. You are little more than a un-sophisticated internet troll.

#2. Fyi, my claims of knowledge of RS and its dogma are totally substantiated by the fact that I was formally initiated into RS almost 30 years ago and have visited the Dera a number of times up until 1990.

#3. You ar a liar. I never posted any such "praise" of the Hare Krishna movement.

#4. Furthermore, I do have considerable knowledge about Islam (Sufism) and Christianity as well.

#5. Fyi, I have in the past questioned Charan Singh personally on "that dogma" several times.

#6. I wouldn't ever bother to waste my time with Gurinder.

#7. Fyi, I don't engage in "debating RS dogma". I merely post my own opinions and criticisms of various issues, among them being RS.

#8. The only troll who periodically pops into this Blog forum is the one named "Manjit".

#9. Harjap is no more 'enlightened' or "knowledgable" than anyone. Nor is he free of RS. The fact remains that he still feels a compelling need to engage with RS and GSD.

#10. Tao does not "believe" in any RS dogma

#11. RS dogma does a great job of defeating itself.

your many years in RS and your professed considerable knowledge of Islam and Christianity haven't really modified your beligerent atitudes have they? "the Muslim world is full of “rotten hypocrits and despicable religious fanatics” (comment to “Cartoons of Muhammad create huge uproar” Feb 01, 2006), while at least half of Americans are “a bunch of fat, stupid, lazy, selfish, arrogant, bigoted bastards” (comment to “Christians admit their religion is based on hate” May 07 2007),

Maybe tao needs to get back on his meditation cushion and meditate on the nicer Muslims and Americans that are out there.

The Moslem world does have a fair amount of hypocrites and religious fanatics, and there are also many Americans that are indeed fat, stupid, and lazy, etc. etc... and thats their problem, not mine. I did not make them be that way.

Fyi, I don't meditate, and I also don't "need" to meditate either. I simply have no reason or desire to. But then maybe you do.
There are also many good Moslems and Americans "out there", and I have never said or implied that there are not.... so get your facts straight Mr Wise-ass.

Tao, my facts are straight. I just looked up the comments in Brian's answer, wise-ass

Brother Soamianami, I feel you are a troubled person, and although I think your attacks upon others are often abusive and obscene & your lies about 'spiritual' attainments can be grossly misleading, I'm begining to wonder how this affects your state of mind...so I am reconsidering whether it honorable to continue this discussion. So, as a 'warning all ye who tread here', I'll leave you with this.

'I know you are, but what am I' is not a mature way to debate.

I maybe an internet troll, but one who uses his real name, one who has shared NUMEROUS life experiences over many years over at RSS, one who doesn't delete ANY of their posts, and one who NEVER intentionally lies or misleads others. I honestly don't think ANY of the above apply to your various internet personas.

The question is for me, do you believe what you write and/or are unable to distinguish truth from fiction, or are you more a calculating intentional deceiver? If the former, I genuinely feel for you, if the latter, that pretty much makes you an idiot.

You have written so many different lies under so many different personas, you've lost track. That is why you delete so many of your posts, hoping it hides your tracks. However, over at the yahoo group RSS, when somebody RESPONDS to your posts, they are saved. Hence, posting as Soamianami, you wrote (all original SA posts deleted, so these are the responses):

"Only rigorous Self-inquiry will lead to realization of Self-knowledge. Only those who have yet to awaken will argue or
debate" & "I was also given this honor in recognition of genuine God-realization
and the unwavering abidance in the realized state of Brahman-Jnana", as well as other various nonsense:


And, the infamous 'I am a brahma-jnani' quote, which you now seem to have more or less demonstrated was a LIE. So, you can call me a 'liar', but TRUTH will out.

"I am Brahman-jnani." as well as other humourous content.


Tao, you won't head it, but my advice to you would be to stop PRETENDING to be something you're not. Your lies rebound to create disharmony and an unrestful mind within yourself. If you're genuinely interested in mysticism, I think a path of moral restraint and discipline is needed. Perhaps some daily meditation time too. (I am almost certain you have never had the discipline to even sit for half an hour) Not everyone is suited to the non-dual path. Reading texts off the internet will provide no peace for you.

If you're not really interested in mysticism, do something more constructive. But, 'do what thou wilt'. None of these suggestions were underhanded or sarcastic.


I think Tao is an intelligent guy who is capable of some clarifying, helpful insights. Maybe if he toned down the more aggressively rancorous comments all this would settle down and we could continue with constructive discussion and debate.

Instead of just saying "bullshit", He could say, "Sir, your remarks are patently ridiculous, absurd and unsubstantiated, so I must, with all due respect, disagree strongly because..."

Or, instead of just saying "fuck you" he could preface the remark by saying, "My dear colleague in the arena of debate, I regret to seem crass and unrefined but I feel I must clarify my feelings in no uncertain terms...fuck you! This remark is not intended to offend or debase the quality of our discussion, but rather to concisely express my feelings of displeasure. I hope you will understand."

But maybe that would just be bullshit.


Still at huh Manjit? You can't seem to help yourself. Your twisted allegations are simply faulty.

I have made no "misleading" claims about "spiritual attainment".

I have simply related historical and bigraphical facts.

I'm also begining to wonder about "your state of mind".

Furthermore, there is nothing amiss about summarily deleting old posts that are no longer relevant. And I do not "lie or mislead others". Nor do I have "various internet personas". And who is to say that "Manjit" is your real name?... and who (except for you) cares anyway? And your cross-referencing of entirely separate discussion groups is clearly less than honorable, imo.

The question really is: Are you a calculating and intentional deceiver? By all appearances it does seem that way.

Manjit wrote: "You have written so many different lies under so many different personas..."

That is absolutely incorrect. I have not written any "lies" about anything, not her nor anywhere else. Nor have I used "so many different personas". However, these statements of yours are in fact themselves outright lies.

And I do not delete my posts for any other reason than they are no longer needed or relevant. Your cheap and sleazy attempt at slandering me is dishonest and mal-intentioned.

As far as my statement: "Only rigorous Self-inquiry will lead to realization of Self-knowledge. Only those who have yet to awaken will argue or debate" goes, it is generally correct. But you obvously must have some hang-up with that.

And fyi, the "recognition of genuine God-realization and unwavering abidance in the realized state of Brahman-Jnana" was made by Sr Swami Paramanada, and not any claim of my own. I made no such claims. I merely reported what someone else had said about me. So again, your presumption is faulty and flat out incorrect.

And as for 'I am a brahma-jnani'.... who am I?

Also, there never was any prentension of being or claiming anything. Your efforts at discrediting me are futile and less than honorable.

And your admontions are nothing more than a pathetic little ego-game which is so typical of your debates with others in other discussion groups. All consequently all of your so-called "suggestions" are indeed "underhanded and sarcastic".

You just don't have any clue as to where I am coming from.

In conclusion, this is Brian's CVhurch of the Churchless Blog, not an appropriate place to carry out your personal attacks upon me.

I have nothing more to say or to debate with someone who is as dishonest and ego-game playing as you are.

This is Brian's blog forum and in respect to him I prefer to stay within those bounds.

Please take your game, your personal vendetta, somewhere else.


Ugh! your hypocrisy is getting a little ripe tao.


Is that all you have to say?

You really just don't have any clue at all do you?

Well, perhaps farther down the road of your life you will come to wise up and have more respect for those who have gone before you.

Lets hope so.

poor tao, Mom always told me, "Never argue with idiots, they just drag you down to thjeir level & beat you with experience." With that in mind, I'll yield the floor (and website) to the guru wannabe.
Good luck,


You just proved my point. Thanks. Better luck next time.

Btw and fyi, and in case you missed it, I don't believe in your phony guru or any gurus at all. Gurus stem from nothing more than an immature need to romaticize the esoteric. Gurus are a joke... just like you are.

Try getting an attitude adjustment. Maybe you'll feel better.

Chill dudes - wheres the love - love is god right?

Chill Pill obviously doesn't know what he is talking about.

Love is a filthy word. It is lust. It is duality. It is a sensual movement. If you say you are in love, you are lying. You are only justifying your own lust.

haha... be selfish just do it don't describe it.
if u describe u wont get what u want from meditation. dont worry about every one just worry about you. a blind person cant tell path to anyone. Babaji is for that.

words r poor expressions of anything do it. then your tong your stop talking your mind will stop making illusions. and your fingers stop typing. bye to all
this is my first and last message.

and such is the truth of it, those that do, don't speak, those that speak, don't know and don't do neither.

Jarendra, and I assume that those who speak via blog comments don't know, and those who do know the truth don't leave blog comments?

i want to know whether one become poor after initation i have written many letters to babaji that i want a stable job i can't do night shift anymore i have been doing it for 10 years and i am not married babaji doesn't listen why

I'm very late to this party, but I have a question, Brian :

"Guru" means teacher, that's all, although of course specific esoteric schools may well load that word/term with broader, deeper meanings.

Now I would imagine that having a guru would give you one great advantage, in that that guru could clear your individual doubts. Of course, whether to accept the guru's answer or not, that is a different matter.

So, seeing you've had a guru for long years of your life, did you talk of your angst and your doubts with you guru? And if you did, and he did answer you, can you share that answer here?

If you haven't had asked him (yet), can you even now ask? (I imagine a super-long 30-year old association will not be tossed aside by any teacher.)

I for one would love to have my own doubts answered by a super-revered guru of any denomination or religtion (without in any way committing myself to them, that is). I mean isn't that the whole point (or one important rationale) for a real live teacher or guru (be they a music teacher or judo teacher or meditation teacher)?

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