Welcome to the Church of the Churchless

If you are spiritual but not religious,
If you don't belong to an organized faith but sometimes wish you did,
Or if you do belong but sometimes wish you didn't,
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless.

If you are tired of dogma that divides rather than unites,
That demands blind faith rather than open-eyed investigation,
That proclaims "You'll see when you believe"
Instead of "You'll believe when you see,"
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless.

You can browse the Church messages, or posts, in various ways. The ten most recent posts are in chronological order on the home page. To see all of the posts, click your way back in time month by month via the "Archives" links on the left side. Only the last ten months are shown. Click on the word "Archives" for a complete listing.

Posts also can be browsed by category. Each post is placed in one or more of the subjects listed under the "Categories" section to the left. The Basics of our faithless faith category is a good place to start if you've just started visiting the Church of the Churchless. Here you'll find posts about the central tenets of our gospel of spiritual independence.

Use the Google search feature to find posts that contain a key word or words. The "HinesSight" search will return results from all three of my blogs: HinesSight, Church of the Churchless, and Salem Political Snark.

Want to communicate with us? Send an email or comment on a post by clicking the "Comments" link at the very end.

Comments

[Laura Griffiths]

Hi there,
I am a friend of Laurel's, I found out about this website through a home group I was sponsering a while back called "Season's of Change". The group has completely fizzled out, unfortunately. I would really like to "belong" to some group or organization and often think of going back to church, I just don't know where to go anymore. I am a Christian, but, I am fundamentaly outraged by American Christians right now. I really can't believe how bad it's gotten and how so many people just blindly accept all of it! What I extrapilate from the bible is that Jesus wanted us to love our neighbor and treat others the way he has treated us. He washed his apostles feet, and died a horible, unlawful death- when was the last time anyone of us has done that for someone? Probably never. Anyway, I wanted to ask, does this "church" (of the churchless) ever meet? I crave fellowship with like-minded people, and can't seem to find any anywhere. I've thought of going to the Unitarian Universalist Church, but, it's just too large for me, I was looking for something small and "family-like" I used to go to a meditation group that focused on Tich Naht Hanh's teachings, but, I can't sit for as long as they do, it hurts my knees. If you know of any groups or places to connect with people who think this way, please let me know.
Much thanks~
Laura

[Hans Lethe]

Thanks for all your work on this site. I look forward to the interesting posts. It's almost like coffe and the beanery.
Who says "you'll see when you believe?". I though it was "you must believe to see". Yours says that believing and seeing are similtaneous. The other that believing is a prerequisit.

[Brian]

Hans, I didn't mean to imply that believing and seeing are simultaneous. In fact, cause and effect demands a time difference, I suppose.

Does belief cause the seeing? Or does seeing cause the belief? A scientific perspective affirms the latter. A scientist's belief that a law of nature might exist doesn't make it so.

Rather, it is seeing facts pointing to the law of nature that makes the scientist believe in it. This seems to me to be as applicable to spirituality as to science.

Once we hold that beliefs create reality, we're in a self-centered solipsistic way of looking at the world. It is true, though, what Einstein said: "It is the theory that decides what we can observe."

In other words, we need some sort of hypothesis to guide our looking. But this is a far cry from blind faith or belief being a prerequisite for knowing.

[Lorie Borst]

Hello Everyone,
I'm happy to say that the holy spirit is with me, and I hope everyone realizes how forgiving Jesus is... Charles William Hamilton, HOUSTON HAVE I LOST MY MIND>>> WHY ME!! 949-309-1680

[Chris]

Beware of Budhi trasforming itself into Ahamkara.

[SS]

Many people are questioning the relationship between religion and science. It seems that you are too, and you make some very interesting points. I have recently started a blog you might be interested in:
http://soulandsubstance.blogspot.com .

It explores how hard it is to reconcile religion and science, not because of facts, but because of paradigms through which one views life. I would be honored if you would visit and leave some comments.

[Pauline]

What's your agenda, HON?
Life is one long learning experiennce–-I've been down here on this earth a very long time,hopefully, my LAST lifetime. You know, it takes a long time to get a degree in Philosophy, English, Mediicine–-so, why do we thinm spirituality does not require the same dedication?
The relationship between a soul and God is individual. INDIVIDUAL. We each have our own karmas, and have to finish them––it's like a debt that needs to be paid, or a debt that has to be paid to us––all for our own enlightenment. Ego does get in the way––no one knows that better than I––

[tAo]

Pauline wrote:

"What's your agenda"

-- The question really is: What is YOUR agenda?

"I've been down here on this earth a very long time,hopefully, my LAST lifetime."

-- What makes you think that?

"You know, it takes a long time to get a degree in ... so, why do we think spirituality does not require the same dedication?"

-- Who said that it doesn't?

"The relationship between a soul and God is individual."

-- How do you know that there is a "soul", or "God"? You think just because you say so?

"We each have our own karmas, and have to finish them––it's like a debt that needs to be paid, or a debt that has to be paid to us––all for our own enlightenment."

-- Oh boy, here we go again! ... How do you know this? What "karmas"? What "debt"? Who needs to pay? And what "enlightenment"? These are all just merely ideas that you have and hold... and that you espouse and tout with an attitude of certainty and assumed authority. These ideas are not new, nor are they proven fact.

"Ego does get in the way––no one knows that better than I"

-- What ego? Where exactly is this supposed "ego"? And "get in the way" of what?

If you are going to come here with such presumptive conclusions, and you wish to be taken seriously, then you are going to have to back up your claims with some substance, and not just mere words and ideas. You seem to think that you know better, and have the last word, so please present the evidence to substantiate your claims.

[Crux777]

I was just reading "Saint Paltu" by Isaac A Ezekiel a blue covered book and on page 26 "Paltu's Teachings" where he is talking about the inner regions and on this one line he says "From the flame of the lamp emanates a melody,In trance by an enlightened spirit can it be heard and by none else." . As soon as I read that something came to mind . In the Hindu religion when people go into trance they are possessed by spirits and Gods, so they say. Could the same thing be happening to us RSSB initiates . Are we being possessed ? Is it not Demons that possess ?

Then it got me thinking even more. Whys is it that almost none of the RSSB initiates have "experiences" ? And this revelation came to mind. What if, for all the time we have been saying those words we have actually been giving away our spiritual essence to a demon ? What if ? And the longer we do it the more we gave away ... I remember before I was initiated I had a few "experiences". Nothing of the spiritual kind but stuff like lucid dreaming and I it's possible that before I was initiated and while sitting for about an hour or so I saw stars in my minds eye. It could have been hypogogic images ...

Then another thought came to mind. Why did we have to apply for initiation . Doesn't the almighty omniscient "greater than God" know who I am ? Why do I have to apply ? When I went for initiation I had a sponsor. A sponsor you say, why ? I dont know, do you ? When they say in the books the master has come for his alloted marked souls is it not that the Devil has come for his condemned souls who signed the contract by applying ? Has the books not been changed to suit the made up path ?

Why is it that talking about the path is a no-no . I am not talking about experiences which I accept is might cause ego to be inflated or jealousy to rise. I am talking about satsangis talking to each other , questioning each other.

So a question arises. Who will burn all our applications at Dera . Now that we are "initiated" they don't need that.

I have been on the path for 10 years and have never felt more disillusioned and angry.

[tucson]

Crux777 raises some interesting points:

"And this revelation came to mind. What if, for all the time we have been saying those words we have actually been giving away our spiritual essence to a demon ? What if ? And the longer we do it the more we gave away ..."

--Before I was initiated I had similar paranoid thoughts. What if the guru is really some advanced malicious being who wants to draw energy from his disciples for some unknown mystical purpose? I eventually dismissed these thoughts, but I do think RS gurus are frauds who take advantage of the seva (work, service, donations)of their disciples for the material advantage of the organization, themselves and their families.

"I remember before I was initiated I had a few "experiences". "

--Before initiation, I also had "experiences" which ceased after initiation for some years. Of course this was explained that the guru was now managing my inner progress and knew best what experineces I should have and when. Such crap.

"Why did we have to apply for initiation . Doesn't the almighty omniscient "greater than God" know who I am ? Why do I have to apply ?"

--Yes. Why? And why do we need initiation into what we already are? Isn't Shabda the creative power of God which permeates every atom of the universe?

"Why is it that talking about the path is a no-no . I am not talking about experiences which I accept is might cause ego to be inflated or jealousy to rise. I am talking about satsangis talking to each other , questioning each other."

--Mind control of the masses. We don't want an uprising from the peasants when there is a consensus the king doesn't come through with his promises.

"I have been on the path for 10 years and have never felt more disillusioned and angry."

--This is natural when you realize you have been conned, but you will feel better. Now you are free of the confines of this phoney, misleading path. Free to discover your true nature without the inhibitions of the dogmatic, dualistic concepts of Sant Mat. Congratulations and best wishes.

[Roger]

Tucson,

I noticed in the above comment by Cruz777,

"When they say in the books the master has come for his alloted marked souls is it not that the Devil has come for his condemned souls who signed the contract by applying?"

My questions,

Does the Master really know his allotment? Is there a preordained number? The marked soul issue. I wonder what this marking looks like.

My questions are for some interesting conversation. None of this, is any Big Deal.
Roger

[tucson]

Roger asked: "Does the Master really know his allotment? Is there a preordained number? The marked soul issue. I wonder what this marking looks like."

--The RS line is that the master has a pre-ordained number of souls alloted to him and the master somehow recognizes these souls. There is no description of what this mark is. Nobody seems very concerned about it. They just figure it is simply a manner of speaking or some mystical perception in the supernatural abilites of the Param Sant Sat Guru and they leave it at that. It's probably a radiant tatoo on the soul's astral ass.

[tAo]

Crux777 said:

"In the Hindu religion when people go into trance they are possessed by spirits and Gods ... Could the same thing be happening to us RSSB initiates. Are we being possessed? Is it not Demons that possess?"

-- Trance is not always a matter of being "possessed". Very little in fact, and this idea presupposes the existance of "spirits and Gods" and "Demons". You may believe in such superstitions, but I don't. However, I understand your concern.

"Whys is it that almost none of the RSSB initiates have "experiences"?"

-- That is not necessarily true. In fact, a certain fair percentage DO have experiences. It's just that "expreiences" does not amount to achieving the supposed goal of sant mat. Many people (both initiates and non-initiates) have experiences in mediation. And others don't have experiences. But so what? Experiences in meditation, just as in dreams, are all temporary and are not necessarily very significant, so they don't amount to much of anything in the long run.

"What if, for all the time we have been saying those words we have actually been giving away our spiritual essence to a demon?"

-- You make that supposition only because you believe in demons. Merely saying a mantra is not going to "give away" your "spiritual essence". In fact, that is impossible. I would not worry about it at all. What you are very likely doing however, is that you are wasting a lot of your precious time all for nothing.

"I remember before I was initiated I had a few "experiences"."

-- The probabe reaason that you stopped having unusual experiences is because you bought into a belief system and a locked onto a mantra that more or less effectively closed and shifted your mind into a more left brain mode. So you were no longer open-minded as you were before. Experiences tend to happen when you are open-minded, and the RS dogma and mantra negates and suppresses that open-mindedness. Hence, you stop having experiences.

"Why did we have to apply for initiation."

-- The truth is that you didn't have to. You just bought into the idea and lie that was being sold to you by RS and other satsangi believers that you supposedly needed to have intiation by a sant mat guru and be given the "secret" mantra, in order to make spiritual progress.

"Doesn't the almighty omniscient "greater than God" know who I am?"

-- Yes... but do YOU know WHO you are? God will know who you are when you yourself know who YOU are. So find out who YOU are... and then youn will know who God is. Here is a little clue to help you:

Existance simply Exists.

"Why do I have to apply?"

-- In order to be a recognized member of their group, their cult... thats all.

"When I went for initiation I had a sponsor. A sponsor you say, why? I dont know, do you?"

-- Yes, I know why. The same reason. Because that's how most cults operate to suck you in.

"When they say in the books the master has come for his alloted marked souls is it not that the Devil has come for his condemned souls who signed the contract by applying?'

-- No, thats just a stupid religious myth. You made no contract. You made no contract with RS, or with "the Devil". There is no devil... its only a fearful idea in your mind. Have NO FEAR. You made no contract. You are always free, if you want to be.

"Why is it that talking about the path is a no-no. ... I am talking about satsangis talking to each other , questioning each other."

-- Again, because that is how cults operate in order to keep people under mind control.

"a question arises. Who will burn all our applications at Dera."

-- It is not necessary to burn those applications, They are just worthless paper. Those papers mean nothing. It's not important, so don't worry about it. Free your mind.

"I have been on the path for 10 years and have never felt more disillusioned and angry."

-- Feeling disillusioned is very good. That means that you are moving towards greater truth. So trust more in yourself, in your own existance. No need to be angry. Take responsibility. Realize that life is all a learning process. You have learned something through all this. Take only what is useful and leave the rest. Go forward. Trust in your own existance. You are part of Totality. Existance is existing through, and as, YOU. You ARE the reality. Reality is always right HERE and right NOW. So just trust in Existance itself, in WHAT IS... not in myths, meditations, or mantras, or in supposed spiritual saviors.

Everything you need is always right here and right now.

[tAo]

Tucson is very right when he says that the standard RS explanation that the master is somehow managing the inner progress and experiences of disciples, and that he knows best what experiences someone should have and when... is definitely "crap".

The RS "master" doesn't know shit about anyone's meditations or about their experiences or about what they need or what they don't need. All of that happens naturally all by itself. He knows nothing about anyone except for himself. To believe that he does, is a ridiculous nonsense masquerading as supposed "mysticism", but which is utterly childish and is a type of delusional thinking that is called 'magical thinking' in psychiatric parlance.

Tucson said: "Isn't Shabda the creative power of God which permeates every atom of the universe?"

-- Yes, and so everyone is part of it and has access to it at all times. No so-called initiation is required. Everyone is already a manifestation of that power or Existance. Everyone is part of the Totality... and everyone IS this Existance. So why would some such "initiation" be needed in order for Existance to Exist as is already existing in the form and existance of YOU?

It's a pretty darn stupid notion isn't it? But nevertheless, people buy into that kind of fake mystical bullshit everyday. That's how priests and sants and cult-gurus etc all survive.

Tucson said (about being angry and disillusioned): "This is natural when you realize you have been conned, but you will feel better. Now you are free of the confines ... Free to discover your true nature without the inhibitions of the dogmatic, dualistic concepts"

-- Yes, as I said in another post, it is GOOD to wake-up. It is good to feel a little angry. But don't just dwell in anger, take reasonsiblity - its all a leasning process - so LEARN the lesson, and don't just remain stagnant and angry. Move on. Now is Now. Let the past go. It's not important. Life, Reality, Existance... is is Here and Now. Trust in this alone.

[tAo]

Roger asked:

"Does the Master really know his allotment? Is there a preordained number? The marked soul issue. I wonder what this marking looks like."

-- Roger, the master does not know anything of the sort. This is nothing but a foolish myth. It is simply a way of making foolish gullible people believe that the so-called master is their Lord and Savior, and that his disciples - "initiates" - somehow belong to him, and that they are somehow specially meant to be his initiates.

There is also no "preordained number", no more so than anything else is preordained. It's all too easy for such people to look back after some guru dies and say that it was was preordained that he have only such and such a number of disciples. This kind of phony significance is bogus. It's just another way to deceive people into thinking that they are really special, that they were somehow specially "marked" on the spiritual p;lane, and are now among the special chosen ones. This has a very distinct odor of absolute bullshit. The so-called "marked souls" idea is the same kind of crap as well. It is all meant to make people think that they are special and unique among humanity - the Chosen Ones.

Excercise some intelligence Roger, and don't be such a fool as to buy into this kind of religious cult garbage. It's nothing but a deceiptful, misleading, and manupulative myth and a ploy of guru-cult dogma.

It has nothing to do with reality, and it is actually an offense to the intrinsic spiritual freedom and sovereignty of each human being.

[tAo]

Roger,

PS:
There are no special "marked souls". If you want to talk about this idea of "souls", then no so-called "souls" are any more important or special than any other souls. All so-called "souls" are equally important, and have existance equally as parts of totality.

This idea of "marked souls" is a false doctrine. It is a fabrication, a lie. There may be souls if youy like, but there is no such "mark". How could there be a mark? It is an absurd and false idea. A "soul" is not an an object, either material or otherwise. A soul is simply a way of saying a unit of awarenbess. And so the master is simply just another ordinary human being, another ordinary "soul", who has no more ability to differentiate between "souls" than anyone else. Thus the idea that is propagated and used by RS is a lie, and the RS leaders (masters) are perpetuating this lie. That makes them liars as well. They know full well that they cannot see or determine any so-called "mark". And they never turn anyone down for not having a "mark". They only turn people down if the individual has some sort of mental problem, or is underage, etc. And if someone is extremely wealthy, then that person will never ever be rejected. ... So you get the idea.

The "marked souls" thing is nothing but a cult mind control tactic, used to make people think that they are special and unique - "the chosen ones" - and thus to keep them locked into RS and its fraudulent guru and belief system for life.

[Adam]

tAo,
Question for you. I agree with a lot of what you said above. But I don't know where you stand on one thought. All souls are equal of awareness and equal. But the content in the awareness is very different from soul to soul. Couldn't it be that the awareness of one soul is much more free of content than another's, content including associations with the body as well as concepts? And do you think a person's ability, through practice, to withdraw attention to the exe center and above is totally meaningless and without worth?

[Richard Fu'e Fu'e]

For all the cynical vindictive haters of Huzur Charan Singh Grewal and his predecessor-Sardar Bahardur Jagat Singh-both past masters of the RSSB spiritual organisation, may I just remind you
all that these two great devotees of the Great Master Sawan Singh
never ever sought to BE the master. of near on 1.75 million disciples, they were thrust into the role,so to say by a legal ,notarised will written by their predecessor-refer to" Glimpses of the Great Master" a photo shows the signature of Sawan Singh-and the will nominating Sardar Bahardar as THE
SUCCESSOR to Sawan Singh-witnessed by Dr Pierre Schimdt-renowned homeopath from Switzerland -also a devotee of the Great Master-now the point being is that NO Master pushes himself into the position of Param Sant Satguru-think logically
what a Param Sant Satguru is-or a master of any mystic meditation group-to qualify as a candidate-one has to be a good student-like an undergrad-studying hard.
Stilling the mind -is they say near impossible-but nothing is impossible.The Master comes and the students learn how, in time to become masters,PhD of spiritualty-by direct experience.
Incidentally Kirpal Singh accused Charan Singh of paying x amount of Rupees to get the Gaddi-and was fronted by Charan Singh-who was a practicing lawyer at the time-to retract publicly the besmirching slander by printing an apology in the local Indian newspapers-and to cap off the hatred thrown at RSSB and Charan Singh-shortly before Kirpals death in 76 Kirpal asked for forgiveness from Charan Singh.
If you read Charan Singhs books related to Ruhani Satsang-he says in Divine Light-that he has no grouse w said group-now here is a man who has worked since 1951 after becoming the master every hour of the day -assisting others-physically -by
setting up the Eye Camps in 1965, the Charitable Hospitals in Beas,Himachal Pradesh,Bhota-at the expense of the RSSB charitable Funding bodies-mentally -discoursing around the world,writing books ,Punjabi,English etc tapes in Hindi English video tapes x 5 in Hindi-He did not stop-at NO COST-He was a GIVER not a petty slanderer,email backbiter,shirker,complainer
still a soul SO full of love and compassion can only be slandered by the ignorant and blind fools of this world-and yet he showered ALL with love every day-and is still holding out his hand- loving ALL in his astral form.
Like it or lump it-you are initiated-you are for destined for the "cleansing".
We all are destined to die-our actions follow us to our last breath-why not make up now with hurtful thoughts and deeds we have done-logically if we have besmiched a saint,slandered a loving person-arent we the worse off?
I dare anyone to better the stats of Charan Singh,Jagat Singh,Sawan Singh,Soami Ji,aimal Singh and present master Gurinder Singh-who never insults any Master-loves all but-calls
a spade a spade.-again -all the EX-satsangis-you aer NOT EX anything-you are sons and daughters of sat purush-get back as the Beatles sang -to where you Once belonged.
No use shownig off on the internet as to your weaknesses on the path-or blaming the Master etc-have a look at your goals, your priorities-what you want-but please don't insult my Master his successor or his predecessors-they are ALL LIGHT INCARNATE-we are little specks of dust, coughed up by a funeral pyre-get real stop all the assassination of RSSB gurus and start your meditation afresh-renew your vows taken at California 1973-or wherever-Know Thyself by thyself -believe not at all what others
say.
Experience the inner bliss the light the sound and what all the Masters say and you will never be unhappy again-th bliss is 24/7 and we get there by becoming human-kind,considerate,sociable,non judgemental,loving,friendly,chaste
etc-not slandering the Charitable,the Givers,the Spiritual Masters
no.
Before you moan about RSSB go and visit Beas-sit with 50,000 people and have free food at the langar,walk around nearly 70 sq km of Labour of Love construction-incl Free Hospital,fire service,pharmacy-accommodaton for overseas guests-sit w 700-800,000-people at the Annual Satsang days-yes it is not a perfect organisation -what is-but I challenge anyone to match the scope and scale-and also I ask all you critics to become perfect in your own lives before passing judgement on the guru.

Now what does a satguru do? Find out for yourself-when you have perfected becoming a perfect student of surat shabd yoga.

Before then- yes write clever words that are urine in the wind
but if you are serious about spirituality-less with the keypads
and more with the simran.

I write in defence of the RSSB institution of which I belong-happily all my life-I am 51-and RSSB to me is the single most place of peace on this planet-where I can be purely spiritual
and practical without being embarrassed -or hiding my self.

Charan Singh initiated me in 1982 and I stayed at dera for 2.5 months 1984- a truly Loving time-24/7

I have been back 11 times and will continue-meditation is a 24/7 activity-we must work and we must call a spade a spade-you selfish affluent overbearing arrogant ex satsangis should be ashamed of yourselves-snap out of your depression and GO INSIDE-you do this by listenig to your teacher.

You do this by following what he told you at your initiation.

Go on DO it-its fun-we are still the samepeople w our myriad multifarious karmas to go through LOVINGLY-allow the master
into your life-the only thing hindering your progress is-the mind.

Go to satsang,listen to Huzur,go to meetings be sensitive to the atmosphere of sewa-but don't diss Charan Singh-send Love to him and ask for his forgiveness-Kirpal Singh did-the Lord is all
forgiveness-ask and thou shall receive.

RADHA SOAMI JI

to'faa so'i fu'a
alofa alofa alofa.

[Roger]

Tao,

Don't forget, I was just trying to initate some interesting conversation. I not buying into any of the topics that I was referring to, in my above comment. However, what someone else believes, is their business. I'm not finding fault with anyone. Hopefully, you understand what I am saying.

Roger

[tucson]

Richard Fu'e Fu'e,

You are impressed by the scope and scale of the organization of RSSB. How does this indicate the legitimacy of its teachings or the status of its saints? It pales in comparison to the Catholic Church for one example. By this logic, I should be a Catholic.

You said: "Like it or lump it-you are initiated-you are for destined for the "cleansing".

--Yes? Like purification by Hell-Fire for my evil, sinful ways?

"please don't insult my Master his successor or his predecessors-they are ALL LIGHT INCARNATE-"

--This is not the place to come for pleasantries about your gurus. Go to satsang and stay away from these websites like Gurinder tells you to do, you disobedient disciple!

"Now what does a satguru do? Find out for yourself-when you have perfected becoming a perfect student of surat shabd yoga."

--Have you perfected becoming a perfect student? If not, how can you know what a sat guru does, or can do, or if he is perfect?

"now the point being is that NO Master pushes himself into the position of Param Sant Satguru"

--Maybe not, but somebody has to run the family business. It's common throughout the world. Charan was a pleasant figurehead who did his job well.

"Experience the inner bliss the light the sound and what all the Masters say and you will never be unhappy again-th bliss is 24/7"

--Then why are you so fussy, offended, unhappy?

By the way. I was at the dera in 1984 (and 1974).

[tAo]

Adam, you asked me: "I don't know where you stand on one thought. All souls are equal of awareness and equal. But the content in the awareness is very different from soul to soul. Couldn't it be that the awareness of one soul is much more free of content than another's, content including associations with the body as well as concepts?"

-- First of all, in my comments about the so-called "marked souls", I indicated that I more or less do not support the notion of "souls", but that I was only using the term "soul" in order to comment about the notion and issue of some "souls" somehow being "marked".

I myself do not generally use the term "soul". I prefer to use the term "atman" which means the essential and impersonal self. The atman is not a personal individual entity, like this notion of one soul among many different souls. Atman is impersonal and is simply the essential nature - awareness - and not some particular discete personal individual or ego.

This idea of "souls" that you and others are using generally refer more to a discrete personal and individual spiritual entity, as being one individual soul among many different individual spiritual entities or "souls". I don't relate to or support that idea.

That all being said, I will now address your questions. You said that all are "equal of awareness and equal".

-- I am not quite sure how you mean that, but that is true in the way that I meant it. I meant that all beings are equally awareness.

Then you said: "But the content in the awareness is very different from soul to soul."

-- Of course, the so-called "content" varies from person to person, and even varies from moment to moment for each person. There is an infinite variation in content from person to person and moment to moment. Sensory perceptions and thoughts are constantly changing al the time. But that has no bearing on this question of "souls" being "marked". So I don't see what your point is.

Then you said: "Couldn't it be that the awareness of one soul is much more free of content than another's, content including associations with the body as well as concepts?"

-- Yes, in a manner of speaking... but the awareness does not really have any content. This so-called "content" that you refer to is merely transitory sensory perceptions and thoughts and concepts and "associations" etc etc, which are all nothing more than ever changing waves. So yes, one person may be in a more quiesent state at a certain time, and another person may be in a more active state. And then later on, be the opposite again. But there is no intrisic difference of awareness itself.

So again, what does this have to do with this idea of "marked souls"?

Then you said: "And do you think a person's ability, through practice, to withdraw attention to the eye center and above is totally meaningless and without worth?"

-- The question of meaning and "worth" is a relative thing. I cannot say what it is "worth" for someone else. But for purposes of discussion, let's just say that you can move or shift your attention to another location, another "center". We all do that all the time anyway. We move our attention here and there. But what has moving attention actually accomplished, other than moving the focus of one's attention? Regardless of where you move your attention, it does not change the fact that you are fundamentally just awareness. Attention is merely a focus. No matter how or where you manipulate or move your attention, your focus, doing so does not change the fundamental reality of awareness itself. Awareness is like a vast boundless and shoreless ocean. Attention is merely like a focal point.

So supposing that you do "withdraw attention to the eye center and above" (I don't necessarily know what you actaully mean by "and above")... but simply moving one's attention to another focal point on the physical, or to the emotional, or to the mental... what has that accomplished? We move attention around all the time, both during our waking hours, as well as when we go into sleep and the dream state, and so on.

So again, I don't say that moving attention around is "worthless", but I also don't say that changing ones focus of attention has anything to with awareness or existance itself. I hear satsangis parrot this kind of mystic cosmology rhetoric all the time, as if it has some great and ponderous meaning, but to what end? It's just more of what I call 'mystic mumbo jumbo'.

But to be fair, perhaps you should articulate what it is that you are getting at a little better. What is your point? What are you trying to say, and what does it have to do with "marked souls", if anything at all. Maybe you are off on another tangent. If so, please explain yourself. I can only respond to the degree that you are clear about what it is that you are discussing or debating.

[tAo]

To Richard Fu'e Fu'e:

Who are these "cynical vindictive haters of Huzur Charan Singh Grewal and his predecessor-Sardar Bahardur Jagat Singh" that you are referring to?

I think you are full of shit and you don't know what the hell you are even talkng about.

I can't say for others, but I am not a "cynical vindictive haters of Huzur Charan Singh Grewal and his predecessor-Sardar Bahardur Jagat Singh". And I don't know of anyone else here that is either.

If you read Charan Singhs books ... now here is a man who has worked since 1951 after becoming the master every hour of the day -assisting others-physically -by
setting up the Eye Camps in 1965, the Charitable Hospitals in Beas,Himachal Pradesh,Bhota-at the expense of the RSSB charitable Funding bodies-mentally -discoursing around the world,writing books ... He did not stop-at NO COST-He was a GIVER not a petty slanderer,email backbiter,shirker,complainer ...
still a soul SO full of love and compassion can only be slandered by the ignorant and blind fools of this world"

-- You are the "blind fool" Richard. You are ther ignorant one. You are the one who is spewing hatred and making false accusations of "cynical vindictive haters" against people. You are the one who is expressing hatred here, no one else.

"Like it or lump it-you are initiated-you are for destined for the "cleansing"."

-- That's a load of dogmatic rubbish. Initiation is not some kind of bondage. No one is "destined". Everyone is free by their nature. Your words are crazed dogma and reflect your aberrated mentality.

"if we have besmiched a saint,slandered a loving person-arent we the worse off?"

-- I am saint and a loving person, and yet YOU have besmirched and slandered ME. Thus you are noting but a hypocrite.

"I dare anyone to better the stats of Charan Singh,Jagat Singh,Sawan Singh,Soami Ji,aimal Singh and present master Gurinder Singh"

-- That's easy. Who the hell are they anyway?

"all the EX-satsangis-you are NOT EX anything-you are sons and daughters of sat purush"

-- Sorry to inform you, but NO I am NOT. I am the son of my own great father (may he rest in peace), not of some abstract notion of foolishness such as "sat purush".

No use ... blaming the Master etc-have a look at your goals, your priorities-what you want-but please don't insult my Master his successor or his predecessors-they are ALL LIGHT INCARNATE'

-- That's only your stupid opinion. I have a different opinion.

"stop all the assassination of RSSB gurus and start your meditation afresh"

-- No need to. The RSSB gurus have assassinated themselves. And I don't need to "start meditation". Maybe you do, but I don't need meditation. So mind your own business.

"Before you moan about RSSB go and visit Beas-sit with 50,000 people and have free food at the langar,walk around..."

-- I have already done that many times. That's what gives me the right to say whatver I choose to say, and think whatever I choose to think.

"I challenge anyone to match the scope and scale-and also I ask all you critics to become perfect in your own lives before passing judgement on the guru."

-- I already AM PERFECT. I don't need to "become perfect". But your admonition shows how ignorant you are. And I can also pass "judgemnent" on any guru that I so choose. That is my right as a free thinker and a sovereign human being.

"Now what does a satguru do?"

-- NOTHING.

"when you have perfected becoming a perfect student of surat shabd yoga."

-- YOU are the "student of surat shabd yoga"... not I.

"write clever words that are urine in the wind but if you are serious about spirituality ... more with the simran."

-- You mean the piss that you write? And "simran" YOUR trip, not mine. I don't do simran, because I don't need to do do simran.

"I write in defence of the RSSB institution of which I belong-happily all my life-I am 51-and RSSB to me is the single most place of peace on this planet-where I can be purely spiritual and practical without being embarrassed -or hiding my self."

-- You are young compared to me. But if thats nhow you feel, then you should go back to RSSB, to the Dera, and remain there. Why are you harassing others over here?

"you selfish affluent overbearing arrogant ex satsangis should be ashamed of yourselves-snap out of your depression and GO INSIDE-you do this by listenig to your teacher."

-- Whoever you are referring to is NOT my "teacher". I don't need a teacher anymore. And I am fairly affluent (because I earned it), but I am not depressed, and I don't need to "GO INSIDE". And I am much older and wiser than you are, but I would not tell you what to do or to believe. You are just another self-righteous RS fool, imo. You have no right to tell anyone how to think or what to do or believe.

"following what he told you at your initiation."

-- RS initiation is a joke.

"Go to satsang,listen to Huzur,go to meetings ... Charan Singh-send Love to him and ask for his forgiveness"

-- I don't need to go to satsang, or "listen to Huzur", or ask for forgiveness. I need no forgiveness.

Get a friggin clue... why don't you? Go back and spend the rest of your miserable life at RSSB if you want to. ... But don't tell others what to do, or sove RS down other peoples throats. Your own comments and behavior is the worst advertisement for RS that you could make. If you want people to see the value in RS, then just LIVE IT, don't preach it. Show us what it has benefitted and gained for you.

[Kieran]

Great site.

For almost a lifetime I've wondered about/listened to the stories about 'God' and always thought if it does exist I really hope it isn't my 'father'.

This fairweather imposter who arrives to take praise and disappears as his 'children' die through famine, war, murder etc.

This 'father' who watches as his 'children' suffer rape and violence.

Only two possible conclusions for me.

a) Doesn't exist

b) Exists but is a cowardly pervert who stands aside and watches his 'children' suffer.

(a) seems the obvious option.

There is no God just an excuse for blame.

[Roger]

I can see how the stories of God the father are rather goofy. However, to say that God doesn't exist is goofy too. First, what exactly is existence, what exactly is reality? Let's prepare an exact absolute understanding, then search for God there in.

[guess only brian would know my name]

mr.777, Looking at the stars right? you think you are alone to accomplish that feat before initation ? But this experince was all thanks to the devil. Can you name any body with similar experince who didnt walked this path of the masters ?

[Goku]

Are you spiritual? Or an atheist?
I couldn't help but have that doubt, while suggesting your website to a group of online friends.

[Brian Hines]

Goku, I'm a spiritual atheist. This really isn't a strange thing to say. Buddhists and Taoists also are spiritual atheists, and I resonate with both philosophies if they're stripped of supernaturalism.

[Spinstapink]

OMG! Many of my family members are initiates of Maharaj Charan Singh Ji. I had to read aaaall of their materials every day for half an hour when I was a teenager- "Science of the Soul", "Path of the Masters" and all of the other 'greatest' hits. This sight is freaking me out! I stumbled across it while trying to find out what the 'five secret words' are, and what they mean. My mother often attended satsang in Tucson, but we're from the midwest.

I'm kind of blown away to find out that there are others who have never really bought into the entire science/path/teaching/religion/sect/cult, whatever you want to call it, of Sant Mat.

Is it true that the entire teaching is swiped from Sikhism? That none of the gurus where ever Sikhs, they just wear the turban and the beard so that they could convert Sikhs who'd been kicked out of their groups for various offences? And that the whole cult was developed as a method of claiming land as the British left the continent? What about the rumors that the 'five sacred words' or mantras or whatever are not the names of the five realms of mind, but actually the names of the rulers of the 'lower realms'? (I saw someone above mention a scenario that had certainly crossed my mind before). And if they are the real words, and this teaching is the 'real deal', do I actually have to become initiated, or can't I just do it on my own? Will I really get lost, if I don't have this fella to guide me?

Jeesh, reading some of this stuff I've come across the last few days is just... I mean, ignore a cult for two decades and come back for a look and- wow! So, did I miss my big chance of getting out of here in three or four lifetimes by not getting initiated by a 'true master'? Or is this 'science' just the usual "get the poor folks to be satisfied with their lot in life, so we smarter folks can get on with improving ours at their expense"? I understand the frustration someone expressed above.

You may be hearing from me again after I've looked over some more of the posts in here. Just wanted to say hi, for now.