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July 15, 2007

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I posted this comment to another related article, but it applies here ...

After reaching the Brown Belt in Shotokan, I stopped Shotokan training and switched to other martial arts forms: kick boxing, tae kwon du, Wushu, and then Tai Chi.

I stopped Shotokan because I couldn't find the philosophy applicable in real life situations.
I stopped kick boxing because it has limitations on how and where you hit - and it lacks much of the spiritual strength of other martial arts.
I stopped tae kwon du because they practically forget they have hands!
I found everything I need in Wushu ... well, almost.
I suddenly discovered Tai Chi, although I didn't have the chance to practice Tai Chi (just a few lessons from a travelling instructor).
Wushu is what you want to learn if you are looking for the fancy movements you see in movies, if you are really concerned about standing a fight in the neighborhood, and if you are looking for a profound philosophy.
However, Tai Chi adds to that an incredible flexibility and health improvement as well as deeper philosophy. Moreover, Tai Chi is almost the only form that you can practice till the day you die (getting so old in age)!

By the way, my martial arts journey has been going for almost 14 years ...

Regards


That was very interesting and about a world I know nothing about. I do know though that fundamentalists, in any persuasion, do the same thing-- get to some 'absolute' point, know it all, demand everyone else accept their truth as the ultimate, and have no reason to learn further. It is how you know something is fundamentalist.

info, we seem to have traveled similar martial arts paths. Interesting. You've reached pretty much the same conclusions I have.

Yes, Tai Chi certainly is a style that can be practiced into one's ripe old age. "Elders" are venerated in the pages of Tai Chi magazine, something you won't find in most other martial arts styles. And they can still kick butt.

I like Tai Chi for its deep philosophy, as you pointed out. Also, for its elevation of formlessness over form, similar to Wu Shu in general. Flexibly responding to an attack or altercation without pre-set routines makes a lot more sense than falling back on rigid "thou shalts."

Rain, you may not be familiar with martial arts, but you definitely understand the basic issue with different styles -- because it indeed is the classic case of fundamentalism vs. open-mindedness.

Some styles are eclectic. Others hew to the straight and narrow party line. Shotokan is much more of the latter variety. I think it has more than a little to do with Japanese authoritarian obsessiveness, as contrasted with Chinese flexibility and inclusiveness.

I took shotokan for half a semester in college (I was already a black belt in a kempo style school: www.kojosho.com). I saw that difference immediately. The kempo school I was part of took into consideration the differences in all of us. There was a very nice mix of hard line martial arts as well as a softer side, the Kojosho forms. I have looked at other martial arts as well, and I found Tai Chi. It's philosophy and practice are what a true martial art should be. As Brian saiy, formless in it's form.

I've been a dyed-in-the-wool internal martial arts fan since early childhood. My passivist mother allowed me to take Aikido in 4th grade, because she heard it had no offensive hits or kicks (not entirely true but hey it got me in the door). I learned from that little bit of training that internal styles have very practical martial applications. I was a runt til early high school, and smart -- and thus highly sought after as a punching bag. But no one could get a punch or a hold or a kick in on me after only 1 1/2 years of Aikido training.

I've studied Tai Chi since and enjoy it very much, I agree with the above comments about a more well-rounded approach to movement, life, and conflict in that form (as well as other internal forms) over external or hard forms of martial arts.

Right now I'm practicing Jingui Golden Shield Qi Gong. It not a martial art, but an energy art -- that's what I really need right now in life. I have chronic health problems that I am addressing by practicing this style. I am finding good results after not much time.

I will continue to study martial arts, but I can't see ever doing an external form. I'm just too old, soft, and philosophical.

Nice post, enjoyable reading.

Having watched a few of those ultimate fighting cage things it appears to me that free style wrestling may be the most useful martial art. I speak as a tai chi practitioner of ten years or so.

I've been reading Rob Redmond's articles for several years and have found them interesting. I have also been studying Shotokan for about 20 years, with a few years off in the middle. However, what I do and teach is probably not really traditional. I do the forms, I do the basics, we put on some pads and hit each other once in a while just for fun though I don't give a rip about fighting and won't get in a bar fight in my life. Its simply good exercise, we teach a lot of kids, and make them concentrate for an hour at a time. We enjoy getting together as a group. Bottom line is that I still think of what I do as shotokan based, but we keep it a fun family, make up some new katas, and just enjoy the workout. It doesn't have to be that dogmatic.

Of course now that I am getting older, when I work out alone I do yoga. I incorporate that into the shotokan classes also. No need to give up on shotokan, just adapt it to how you want it.

you dont know what your talkin about. ive been taking shotokan karate for 7 years now and i've got my second degree black belt. and let me tell you we do realize we dont have "authority" over the other styles. we realize the strengths and weaknesses our style has when put agianst the other forms. you sit there and made it look like we people in shotokan are a bunch of arrogant fools. i dont appreciate that at all.

Jeff, I didn't say that Shotokan claims authority over other styles. My point (among several) was that Shotokan, like most defined martial arts styles, considers that its approach is the best.

I heard this many times from my sensei. And criticisms of this "We're #1" attitude are sprinkled through the 24 Fighting Chickens web site postings, whose author knows a heck of a lot more about Shotokan than I do. See:
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/

I'm glad Shotokan was a good fit for you. For others it isn't. Shotokan has its pluses and minuses, like every martial art system. If the people you've been involved with recognize this, that's great. Humility is a good thing.

If you ever watch a mixed martial arts fight (cagefighting, UFC, etc.) it is difficult to determine what a fighter's style is. To be successful in this sport you must be proficient in stand-up kickboxing as well as groundfighting skills of jiujitsu and wrestling. Sometimes you can recognize a fighters emphasis on certain stylized techniques which indicates their background, but to fight in this sport adhering to a specific stylistic system rarely works. The lack of adaptive flexibility is a liability which can easily be anticipated and countered.

In the early days of this sport, specialists in specific styles such as shotokan, kempo, tae kwo do, etc. found themselves easily defeated by brazilian jiujitsu artists and the strict jiujitsu fighters sometimes found themselves unconscious as the result of a boxer's punch. While jiujitsu was most effective in the early days, because most real fights end up on the ground, the sport evolved to the point where a melding of ground and stand-up techniques was necessary. Hence the term "mixed martial arts" or MMA.

This sport has many rules to protect the fighters from severe injury. Things like eye gouging, groin kicks, strikes to the spine and base of the skull, etc. are prohibited. Also, certain standard defense postures commonly used in this sport such as the jiujitsu "full guard" would never work in a real life-or-death fight with a skilled opponent. Still, this sport resembles most closely the reality of an actual fight while still keeping the fighters from actually killing and maiming each other.

It is very hard to maintain a classic shotokan (for example) horse stance when your attacker has you on the ground in a choke or submission hold.

Ok, wow, Of course you only have quotes from that bob redmond fella, you are upsessed with him! You were also not in a good shotokan school, so I do not see why you are so biased and why you are categorizing a really big group of people, sure, in katas you have to do the same movements, no duh, that is what a kata is, it creates MUSCLE MEMORY, and in the street, or anywhere else, you can change it how you want to, this just helps you remember so you dont think you just do. And all forms of martial arts have forms and katas. Everybody knows that EVERY single martial art has weakness or more. BJJ is only good on the ground. Taekwondo is only good if they are not up close to you. Shotokan is all about distancing yourself, hitting people, and not getting hit. You are biased, and really do not know what you are talking about. You have hate in your heart, and your taking it out on karate. Good for you.

And condor, you obviously have not trained in traditional shotokan, we do, and we go over self defense a lot, but we also mixed in brazillian jiu jitsu, and we know a lot about shotokan, we do throws, takedowns, joint locks, pressure points. I could break your knee or break your toes with one kick. Have you ever heard of Lyoto Machida? He practices Shotokan karate in the UFC, and he is the LEAST hit fighter in the world, his record is 16-1-0, only losing his last fight to a Muay Thai fighter, however he was fighting really off that bout.

Hard-Karate_Stylist re Author's; "What I Don't Like About Shotokan."

I have studied the hard-style karate of Tang Soo Do (TSD) for many years. TSD shares many similarities with the hard-style karate of Shotokan. Both typically rely on aggressive, physical force performed in a linear manner.

Shotokan karate is just about my least favorite karate, for many of the reasons you have cited. I too, have run across instructors who are more interested in their success more than the student's (Hence, the unwarranted criticism you received.).

Shotokan karate, however as a representative of the universe of traditional martial arts (TMA), does present major facets of a workable tradtional martial art very well. These involve (A) rounded physical fitness and (B) mental discipline. These two bedrock skills form the foundation for basic martial art cabability. The karate fighting techniques are laminated on top of these bedrock skills.

Non-TMA fighting methods may or may not provide rounded physical skill; they generally fail to provide the mental discipline seen in proficient TMA's and karate fighters. The previous commentor has pointed out how Lyoto Machida's Shotokan base has prepared him for success in MMA.

I have seen a lot of criticisms of karate and Shotokan in particular-- a lot of it is valid. Shotokan and hard-style karates like TSD tends to attract a lot of aggressive, physically forceful one-dimensional individuals reflective of the obvious, outward characteristics of the style, especially pre-black belt.

And I believe you must have strict standards in TMA & karate; HOWEVER, the rules must always serve the progress of the practitioner. It takes an intelligent and well-schooled instructor to make the correct judgement call.

In summary, I agree it best to question the methods of training. The bigger answer is to seek the fullest understanding of what TMA or here, Shotokan karate, is trying to accomplish. THEN, work towards that accomplishment.

My read on this article is that you were taking the right approach; your Shotokan intructors should have broadened their own views and should have been supportive.

In closing, your Shotokan instructors shared the same negative approach as the '24-fighting chickens' author--aggressive, heavy criticism. With this I differ. Finding fault is the easy thing to do; defining & executing a path to real accomplishment is very hard.

Will be getting a new e-mail address.

Yours,

Hard-Karate_Stylist

I have to disagree with your blanket assessment of Shotokan karate. Not all schools are run that way. Less then twenty four hours ago I tested and passed to second level brown belt; second kyu. In addition to our standard training of basics we also engage in very practical self defense. Many of the black belts who train here are cops or even professional bodyguards. My instructor has mentioned many times to do " your karate" clearly understanding the individual strengths and weakness of everyone. As far as corvettes ? I know for a fact there is no profit being made here worth mentioning. The president is one of my closeset friends and the occasional profits went to treating us all on a night out. We pay half what most schools pay and as an advanced student I have seven different opportunities to train per week. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but not all places are the same.

I am really glad that I found this post. I have not studied any martial arts before but i just recently found a place near me that taught karate. It had Shotokan and Tai Chi training only. I've been spending the past 2 weeks thinking of what kind i should take. Thank you for the help.

mann you are totally off on this one shotokan is not about rigidity at all its all about getting connection through your entire body and releasing energy through one focal point in your body to create a very powerful and fast technique. The reason that you might have held your own against someone that is ranked higher than you is because you might have better physical skills than the other person. Or simply because the other person is not that great at free style kumite. BUT what you do not understand is the fact that he understands how his body connects he understand that you have to squeeze muscles together at the same time and also rotate your hips in such a way that causes more force to come out. NO you are to focused on the fact that you were thinking of your self as a macho guy who thinks he is better than everyone else... along those lines i have trained shotokan for 17 years and i am still a 3rd degree brown. it is not all about belts.
spiritually it is invigorating, every day you try and better yourself.

Mikael, I'm not sure if you have practiced other martial arts styles. If so, you might have a different opinion of Shotokan karate.

I now have a black belt in a style that was more eclectic, flexible, and practical -- in my opinion. I also have studied Tai Chi for eight years, with quite a bit of emphasis on martial applications.

I can tell you that compared to Tai Chi and other more "internal" martial arts styles, Shotokan karate has a crude understanding of root, body rotation, whole body power, and such.

Again, this has been my experience. Others will have different opinions, and different experiences. I'm just sharing how I see things.

Rob Redmond is a frustrated product of a McDojo. Even though he claims he went to Japan to train, I believe he went to a McDojo chain in Japan. He has nothing positive to say about the art, he's nothing but a bitter man having a mid-life crisis.

As stated, Shotokan is rigid. Tai Chi requires the body to be relaxed. A rigid punch equals a dislocated or broken shoulder. From a self defense perspective, I have found that the repetitions and slow movements along with deep breathing of Tai Chi has caused its essence to embed itself into my muscle memory to the point that it becomes instinct and very usable should I ever face an opponent. I have only taken Tai Chi for 8 months and I feel more confident than I did after spending 5 years with Shotokan. Pull the arm of a Tai Chi student and they will follow and use the force of the pull agains their opponent, because they stay loose and relaxed. Pull the arm of a Shotokan student and it will most likely break.

I studied shotokan karate for a year and became frustrated by how slow I was learning things .I tried Taek won do but it was so full of fancy kicks and i realized i was too big for that and then I learned boxing for a year and got good at it and then some basic wrestling and now I have realized there is no true complete martial arts so now what I am doing is teaching myself whatever moves I cam try to form them in combos practice what seems like practical and eliminate what seems like only good foe stunts in movie.This along with a through regime of physical conditioning and I am getting better and learning quickly. The only thing a person need to be successful in martial arts is understanding of basic body mechanics.

Reading this original article was a pleasure, and it expressed purely what has been a long standing fact about Shotokan, and other relative traditional karate systems. Very strong in force, and very weak in flexibility, this system can and often is a character builder, but a destroyer of individuality. Culturally oriented indeed, it is the epitome of rigidity. Most students of fighting arts, and particularly in Western thinking, thrive on flexibility and innovation, coupled with strength, skill, and determination; not just what the supreme being god instructor of the old school systems wishes to permanently install in all students, regardless of individual structure or aptitude. Great article, with great accompanying commentaries. Almost any student of fighting styles who has experienced training in Shotokan (or Goju ryu, or Shorin ryu, etc.) should relate to, and benefit greatly from this article. Thank you Brian Hines.

Interesting article. I have studied Shotokan for about 25 years, and been an instructor for only the few last years. For a few years I studied Chun Kuk Do, based on Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do and some other styles. What is the most effective in self defense and most interesting to practice is hard to say, based on the style only. I was fortunate to have sensei's with a excellent understanding of Martial Art in both styles, and they had the ability to teach both technique as the styles , the application of techniques, and how to develop spirit.
We have to keep in mind that we have different motivation for training, but my experience is that the understanding of WHY the style tells us to train as they do is essential. And therefor the Sensei's understanding and ability. In the Shotokan style, you first have to master the basics before you are allowed to start real training. The first grade of Black Belt is named “Shodan” which means the first degree. It is only when you have achieved the first black belt you have proven that you are ready. You have developed muscles, use of the body, how to create maximum force, developed reflexes, how to analyze your opponent, the right balance between tension, speed, force, agility, bone breaking and what you need to now start training in effective self defense. You do not use the Kihon in fighting, that is just to prepare your body and mind for the real training that starts from black and up. So Shotokan demands a lot of patience and training disipline from the practitioner, and that does not fit all of us. So, I agree, Shotokan fits not all. And it reminds me, that this is an important matter continue to educate my Shotokan students about.

By now most of us are aware of the MMA, mixed martial arts, cage-fighting phenomenon that has surpassed boxing as the preeminent fighting sport, commercially at least. The UFC has pushed boxing out of the limelight.

When MMA first started, experts from various fighting disciplines would meet in the cage. Karate vs boxers, boxers vs wrestlers, kung fu vs wrestlers, bar room brawlers vs muay thai, etc. Results varied.

When the Brazilian jiu jitsu fighters came on the scene they were dominant. No one, including black belt karate experts, could last for long against their grappling and submission skills on the ground which is where most real fights end up, sooner or later.

This changed the face of the sport. Now, it is a prerequisite to know jiu jitsu as well as wrestling and stand-up kickboxing. If you are weak in any of these areas you are unlikely to succeed in this sport.

I am wondering what practitioners of traditional karate and kung fu styles think of MMA. It seems to me that their skills, while effective against an untrained opponent or a desperate mugger, would be inadequate to deal with the variety of fighting tools in the arsenal of a good MMA fighter.

I think MMA training supplants traditional boxing, karate, kung fu in its versatility. If I were a young man today wanting to learn a self defense, I would go to an MMA gym rather than a shotokan or tae kwon do school. Also, weapons. But here I am speaking strictly of unarmed defense against an unarmed opponent. Mano a mano.

This is not intended as a put down of Shotokan/kung fu. Rather, I am saying that instead of learning how to work only on fuel injection systems, I would also want to learn how to work on transmissions and brakes, etc. in order to become a more well-rounded mechanic.

Or, I could just eat lots of doughnuts.

Karate is not practical, I speak from experience. It is too rigid and inflexible. The forms taught are based on patterns that dont hold water in real life. If you want to be a well-rounded martial arts expert then learn boxing, jiu jitsu, wrestlig/judo.

Generally people I know with a kung-fu background admire mma for what it is: a sport.
I think it's great, but my problems with it are three fold. Firstly, that type of training is very prone to injury. Most mma guys I know have messed up their joints and back.
Secondly, there is too much of an emphasis on unarmed combat and one-on-one combat. Neither assumption is realistic. Going to the ground is suicidal if two people attack you.
Finally, there is not due consideration to attacks on vital targets like groin smashing and eye gouging and throat ripping. People do lose fights by those methods on the street.
So it's a good sport, but it is not able to replace kung fu.
What I think kung fu men have learned from mma is that a good martial artist is firstly an athlete...

Most skilled mma fighters know how to attack vital areas even though they are off limits in the cage.

MMA fighters are used to getting hit hard on a daily basis and are less likely to be stunned by a barrage of blows in a street fight.

Groin vulnerability in the "full guard" position used as a defensive posture in mma fights would be impractical in many street fight situations.

Kung fu offers a more wholistic philosophical approach than mma as well as weapons use. Some would find kung fu more satisfying in that respect while others would prefer the raw physicality of mma.

Kung fu can be practiced into old age. MMA is not for anyone much over 40 although you could be an instructor/trainer past that point.

Repeated hard blows to the head received by mma fighters are a health risk short and long term. You want to be able to remember doing the sport that caused you to lose your memory when you get older.


I'm getting older I studied shotokan for almost four years I want to study something I can learn to be quick at taking out my oppenant I don't want to go to the ground my body can't take it but I want yo be effient what style is for me

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