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June 19, 2007

Comments

This just shows how slimy blue the anti-M37 folks are. And that includes you Mr. Hines.
You don't know any more than OIA does about the moratorium yet you chastise them for their take.

Furthermore, your view of that 42 home subdivision is likely all wet as well.

You are the ones crying the end of the world. Just as you do about this paltry 42 home subdivision. I doubt there is any real harm to be realized from that 42 home development. And it won;t need any massive tax subsidy like so many municpal partnered developments. You just want to stop it.
The sea of dishonesty you and yours have mustered up has been something.
And now you real colors come out with this moratorium. Why wait for those stupid voters, right?

I must say, you truly make this life long Oregonian absolutely sick. I find your agenda and methods repulsive.

Bulmaro, I may well know more than Oregonians in Action because Brian Clem described the legislation to me yesterday when I ran into him at a meeting.

It was pretty noisy, so I don't know if I got the details of the moratorium right. But I bet I'm closer to the truth than OIA is.

If you find my "agenda and methods repulsive," me and the dozens of our neighbors who are fighting to protect our groundwater from a Measure 37 subdivision might be doing something right.

Sounds like the pave-over-Oregon folks are getting scared.

How can you say that I don't know anything about the 42-home subdivision when my wife and I are leading the battle against it? Please, get informed. Then tell me what you think.

So you don't know squat about the moratorium.

Your oppostion to the 42 homes I'm sure is equally concocted.
The ground water scare is one of the ploys top oppose M37. Easy to cook up and dramatize it serves you well. It's a classic topic really, in that ground water concerns are either dimissed or embellished by our government bureaucrats depending on the government's interests in a given project. If it's a prison or other government venture the same water experts are paraded along with testimony to squash neighbors concerns. Here we have you little NIMBY gig which the government opposes because it's a M37 claim and ground water is at risk. Just like the Metolius water BS.
I hope you get the 42 homes, that people enjoy lioving there and you are proven to be the liar you are.

There are principles and there are values. We do not all share the same and we are protective of that which is ours. There is a lot of room for debate, dialogue and disagreement.

When you are reduced to running people down and making statements that reflect what you choose to believe then most of us would conclude one of three things:

1. You don't know what you are talking about;
2. You underlying beliefs are wrong; or
3. Both of the above.

In Bulmaro's fragmented world in which everyone who does not agree with Bulmaro is some kind of "other" to be ridiculed, what Bulmaro may fail to see is that he has created a wall around himself and has no clue as to how many are on the outside.

Brian and Laurel, you too are the ones crying “The end is near” come on, admit it! Stopping M37 claims is criminal at best, people voted, YES people in this state voted 61% to approve M37, they want there land back and by stopping M37 claims you will be pissing off half of Oregon, the other half are just mad. The only end that is near are the legislators that are proposing this legislation and anyone who voted for it because they will be voted out in the next election. What happened to the Oregon I grew up in, what happened to the place I call home, why are people trying to change it, why are do people like you feel its ok to take away the vote of the people? Why, I will tell you why, you people don’t care about anyone except yourself and your own little issues, you don’t care that people have lived here all there lives and have worked to pass land on to there kids so they could build a home, you don’t care about anyone in this state and it truly shows.

Yamhill is great. We're all for democracy until the voters change their minds. Suddenly it is "little issues."

Wake up, yamhill. Go look at the claims filed by the real backers of 37.

We also passed SB 100 and established the land use system. It was ok to overturn it, but not ok to have second thoughts.

We're presenting an alternative that protects the spirit of 37 and makes it fit with the land use values we treasure. If you don't like the compromise, I guess you;re not in a compromising mood. Where does that leave you - reduced to name calling.

A lot of us who had some sympathy with 37 now begin to see what is really behind it. Yell all you want, but "lobotomized left wing droids" such as myself are still of a logical turn of mind and we can see how it has destroyed the concept of comprehensvie planning and will make any future zone changes problematic.

Tell us lobotomized ones, without, please, denigrating our humanity more than you already are so skilled at doing (maybe not you, but Alex, Bulmaro and their ilk) how it is supposed to work in your brave new libertarian world.

Frenzied Measure 37 supporters, take a deep breath and utter this calming mantra: "It's not the end of the world." And, "There are two sides to every question."

I try to look at both sides, understand the facts, then make a decision about what makes the most sense. May I suggest that you try this also? It's the foundation of democracy--reasonable discourse.

I was just called a "weirdo" over at the NW Republican blog. Here's how I responded, guite reasonably:

"My Republican friends, even the guy who called me "weirdo" (which I won't disagree with), let's calm down and consider facts.

I don't expect you to see Measure 37 my way. But I do hope that supporters will recognize that everything isn't perfect in the Measure 37 world. For instance... (these are all facts)

A 125 acre, 42 home Measure 37 subdivision has been proposed on groundwater limited farmland in our neighborhood.

Quite a few wells adjacent to the subdivision property already have had to be deepened or replaced. After all, this is an officially designated groundwater limited area.

An independent assessment of the water situation in the area (a "peer review" of the applicant's Hydro Review study) found there is inadequate evidence of water availability for the Measure 37 subdivision. That is, existing water users could be harmed by 42 more wells going in.

Nonetheless, the Marion County Board of Commissioners approved all 42 lots last week. They ignored the evidence of water problems in the area, even though that evidence was confirmed by the county's hired experts.

Why? Well, the commissioners started off the meeting last Wednesday with a lengthy discussion of whether the applicant could be vested before the fall vote on the Measure 37 fix.

They were less concerned with enforcing their own groundwater ordinance, than with giving the Measure 37 claimant as clear a track as possible to getting vested.

This is why the moratorium is needed. Measure 37 opened up a floodgate of efforts to get around Oregon's land use laws. Unfortunately, that's legal. I don't like Measure 37, but I respect that it's the law. For now.

However, it's wrong to try to squeeze those claims through the narrow tunnel that is the period between now and the fall vote by unfair means. Like ignoring groundwater ordinances.

Public officials in many Oregon counties are rabid Measure 37 advocates. They can't be counted on to protect the rights of existing property owners. We just saw that here in Marion County.

Lots of our neighbors voted for Measure 37 and now are hugely in favor of fixing it. Facing the prospect of your well going dry has a way of changing minds."

I don't give a crap how you couch things pal.
You are full of it.

125 acre, 42 home Measure 37 subdivision has been proposed on "groundwater limited farmland"?????????????
Limited to what? You have no idea.

You suspect that their may be some effect from this subdivision but you don;t know that at all.
So what do you have?
"it's an "officially designated groundwater limited area". Wow that's really alarming!!!

Your own "independent assessment/"peer review" only found there is "inadequate evidence". Again, wow!

So you make the gargantuan leap that M37 must be stopped because there "could be" some effect on your well??????????

The lots were approved. Get over your NIMBY self. The sky is not falling.

They didn't ignore the evidence. There is inadequate evidence to disallow the 42 homes. Or to enforce their ordinance as you say.
You want the moratorium because you don;t want the 42 homes next to you.
What a selfish pig.
Oregon's land use laws suck. In the Oregonian today the UGB is declared by all to be a failure as a means to plan and accomodate growth. It simply obstructs and retards growth.
There is no "squeezing those claims through the "arrow tunnel that is the period between now and the fall". Those claims are following M37 which is the current law.

No one is "ignoring groundwater ordinances". Thye are ignoring you and you can't stand it.

Very few public officials in Oregon counties are rabid Measure 37 advocates.

You again are full of crap. A liar probably.
No one is facing the prospect of their well going dry. M37 development is no different than development that happens all the time.

You just can't stand it that people choose to do so themselves and not governmment. And you are NIMBY.
And no one will change your mind.
Even after those 42 homes go in and your wells are fine you'll be shoveling more crap.

Brian-

So glad to see that you are tracking the measure 37 reform bill. I was pleased to hear Brian Clem's passionate speech on the house floor requesting legislators to support the reform referral, especially since he comes from a land owning farming family.

I am concerned about the attacks on your blog however. It takes away from the discussion and needlessly introduces stress into our lives in Oregon -- don't we move here for the quality of life? I urge you and those posting comments to avoid insults, using all capitals letters or other signs of heated emotion, particularly in reference to one another. I know your history standing up for health care reform and your caring and kind attitude, so resist the temptation to engage in a sparring match -- I stopped reading after awhile, which keeps me from receiving anyone's message or ideas.

Be well to all you bloggers out there.

Rose, I agree with you. The last refuge of those with no compelling arguments is personal attacks.

I admit that my passion about defending Oregon's livability and the property rights of people already living here at times leads me to some intemperate language of my own.

But the OIA folks far exceed me in their venom . As above, I can't understand why they engage in personal insults if they have reason, morality, and virtue on their side--as they claim.

Brian, Rose: Bulmaro says it all. I copy his comments and I file them away for use when talking to reasonable people who voted for 37 and who now wonder if they did the right thing. I give them Bulmaro's assessment, and then I give them yours.

And, you know: nothing raises doubts in a person's mind more than comments like those from Bulmaro. Is this person saying something I need to pay attention to? Or, is he using denigration and, maybe there is not other word. But when he puts himself on whatever pile he stands on and then says: "it's an "officially designated groundwater limited area". Wow that's really alarming!!!, the people I talk to agree that if it arouses this sort of extremism, then maybe the Measure is too extreme.

If political discussion comes down to us versus Bulmaro, the ties tht bind us have broken. We are in Germany before Hitler, we are here with McCarthy, or we're just dealing with a bunch of selfish greedy nothum.

"Tell us lobotomized ones...how it is supposed to work in your brave new libertarian world."

Actually, reverting land-use decisions back to the counties and cities where local citizens have more democratic control over the processes and policies that affect them directly would be a sage and prudent step in amending this corrupt socialist land-use reservation system that today so divides us (along with voters rejecting the Oregon Democratic Party's "Property Rights Removal Act," too, of course) -- and that'd be mildly libertarian at best.

But in truth, I would vote for the "brave new libertarian world" of which you speak, too -- were anybody offering it up. Constitutional government, drastically lower taxes, user fees, an end to tax-subsidized "sprawl," religious freedom, a Hemp Revolution, unemployed drug warriors and pink-slipped central planners, a demonopolized indoctrination/eduction syndicate, a halt to US-led military aggression, repeal of laws criminalizing and persecuting private consensual adult sexual activity and relationships, affordable market-driven health care, real punishment for criminals who prey on real victims (including real polluters who poison real people and damage the real property of others), and so on. What's not to like for anybody who believes in Freedom of Choice? (Admittedly, there's probably precious little to like for those who lust for social control because they prefer the illusion of security and the certainty of codified injustice to the guarantees of human liberty.)

Also, Richard, I find it more than just a touch ironic and a tad Orwellian that you would accuse someone else of demonizing an "other," or of wanting to "build walls" to keep out (or cage in) undesirables. (Sounds like you're talking about an urban growth boundary to me.) For more than 30 years land-use collectivists in Oregon have labored ceaselessly to convince us our true enemy is the prosperity and freedom of "others." You've unflaggingly sought to sow, foster and cultivate into support for prohibitionist laws the bitter paranoid sentiments and bigoted fear that great teaming hordes of "others" -- whose sole diabolical mission in life is to clutter our majestic views, "pave over" croplands, degrade our pristine waters and otherwise purposefully deplete our mythical "livability" -- are ever plotting to overrun this sparsely populated economic backwater at the first opportunity. Frankly, a more nativistic, demagogic and xenophobic system of state laws than Oregon's comprehensive land-use planning system could scarcely be conceived in modern America. Little wonder that a Republican got the whole thing rolling along.

And speaking of Nazi-era Germany, here's something Reason Magazine's Charles Freund (eeek, a libertarian!) observed back in 2002 about Hitler (who's Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer-historian John Toland noted "was the first head of state to promote urban planning and anti-pollution devices in cities"):

"Hitler was a visionary environmentalist. Think a sensitivity to nature is necessarily progressive and benign? Think again. There's been no more environmentally sensitive state than the Third Reich, which took ecological concerns carefully into account whether preserving woodlands or planning autobahns. The Nazi "Blood and Soil" mystique drew heavily on anti-industrial work that started appearing in the 19th century, and turned it into public policy. As early as 1913, authors like Ludwig Klages were excoriating deforestation, consumerism, urban sprawl, tourism, species extinction, capitalism, the idea of progress, and even the slaughter of whales; the Nazis embraced such work."

But having dedicated much time and intellectual energy to studying the underlying cultural trends and philosophical currents that gave rise to the calamity of Nazism, you already knew all that, didn't you Richard? Indeed, if we are dealing here with something akin to pre-Hitler Germany...well, I'll leave it to readers to speculate where your vote will go should the beastly little mustachioed greenie happen to make a reappearance and run for Oregon governor.

Let's see: I said "In Bulmaro's fragmented world in which everyone who does not agree with Bulmaro is some kind of "other" to be ridiculed, what Bulmaro may fail to see is that he has created a wall around himself and has no clue as to how many are on the outside."

Now the "other" is to pigeon hole me into a category that you can demonize.

Alex then takes up the theme on "other" and says: "I find it more than just a touch ironic and a tad Orwellian that you would accuse someone else of demonizing an "other," or of wanting to "build walls" to keep out (or cage in) undesirables."

Like I said, there are aspects of libertarianism I'll accept, and you've stated them. Does that make me a libertarian; because you seem to tie my environmental concerns, and my support of land use planning as being something to identify me as a Nazi.

But, Alex, we are not like Klages and concern for the environment and ecology did not lead to Nazism; there concern was the blood and soil of Aryan Germany. Dig down and you find just what I have been concerned about - the ability to use of denigration as a substitute for discussion - but don't listen to me, I'm just some "beastly little mustachioed greenie."

A postscript addressed to the Alex's and Bulmaro's of this world:

Two points, Alex:

1. Perception is reality.
2. The Bard wrote that “every word stabs.”

One hundred sixty years ago my ancestors had a perception of Oregon. When they arrived they found a different reality. Thirty years ago, Oregonians had a perception of what was happening to Oregon and crafted a vision for the future.

Today, some property owners have a perception their land had declined in value due to regulations adopted to craft the vision of SB 100. They marketed that perception and it has become the reality of Measure 37.

There is no more potent a force in politics as the politics of alienation, the belief, whether real or perceived that a group is disenfranchised or subordinate to or cheated from something by another group.

When one group takes these perceptions of having been cheated and turn them on to the groups purportedly responsible, you unleash Shakespeare’s line where ‘every word stabs.”

You are very good at that, Alex, but that does not get to the merits of examining the perceptions for their underlying validity or whether the perception of what ought to be fits with the perception and vision of what others thing Oregon ought to be.

When one group’s perception that a process largely works, but can be refined or compromised upon to achieve a sense of equity and this is opposed by another group who perceive the process as something bordering on evil, an unbridgeable chasm exists.

The only option either has (short of taking it to the streets) is to attempt to fill the chasm by persuading others of the merits of their vision. Good luck, Alex.

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