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July 10, 2018

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Jesse, I'm not sure about the board of Fortis. I have heard that the board of Religare is stacked with satsangis. The same might be true of Fortis, but I don't know. Here's a quote from one of "Tara's" comments that I shared in my "Devastating criticism..." post.
----------------
Mike, Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.

So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the " support of the RSSB-trust " as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document.

Dungeness,

I have no RSSB books anymore, but at one point I had nearly every book they'd ever printed, as well as hundreds of those weird maroon colored magazines full of horrid poetry they used to print, and various audio tapes that are out of circulation now too. The best were the tales of the mystic east and the earlier editions of dr julian "i was murdered by a satsangi" johnson's path of the supposed masters.

My apologies for not remembering exactly which publication specifically quoted Charan Singh when he said RSSB was a cult, but to be frank, I've forgotten more about this retarded bhakti knockoff than you'll ever learn. So don't think you're some clever person for noticing that I no longer own those poorly printed books and can't spend hours looking for the quote.

You're obviously not able to keep up with what is being said between Spence and I. No worries, he's unable to keep up himself. But I'll give you a clue, I was never outright accusing RSSB Cuzzo of fraud. So in your attempt at comparing our "arguments" it would be best for you to judge the man you've come here to defend who claims RSSB's fam wants to save the African babies from AIDS.

My position has always been that I'm unsure, but suspicious, so accusing me of being unsure makes you look like a mouth breathing cultist but with the added bonus of being illiterate.

Jesse, The Astral Projecting Saint

Thanks for that, Brian.

Another question I have is if you or anyone else knows if this https://www.dhillongroup.com is one of their companies. I can't remember now how I found it, but it was the top search result when I googled one of their other company names.

I'm hoping to find out so I can confirm whether or not God approves of gambling and liquor. Cause if God himself is selling lotto tickets and Seagram's gin, I'm definitely buying, scratching and drinking.

Jesse

Hi Brian

Reading the Fortune expose you posted and then the justice department's judgment leaves little doubt about the prolonged and purposeful culture of corruption at Ranbaxy.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/generic-drug-manufacturer-ranbaxy-pleads-guilty-and-agrees-pay-500-million-resolve-false

Clearly the politifact article I had read and cited earlier was woefully incomplete and a whitewash of actual events.

Sadly, Brian, your effort to link everything to Gurindar is pure conjecture.

You wrote
"I have heard that the board of Religare is stacked with satsangis. The same might be true of Fortis, but I don't know. Here's a quote from one of "Tara's" comments that I shared in my "Devastating criticism..." post.
----------------
Mike, Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.

So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the " support of the RSSB-trust " as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document."

There is a lot of second and third hand rumor, and a bit of your own conjecture, Brian.

I honor facts, and acknowledge the corruption detailed in the FDA judgment against Ranbaxy, followed by the detailed expose with first hand witnesses in the Fortune article.

But in contrast, your comments are far from that standard.

When Gurindar is found guilty, please post that here and I will read it.

Until then, I wonder why you, who claim an interest in truth, would mix facts with projections and conjectures, except they are all so very dark and support your bias.

That seems the common theme.

"I honor facts" such as when you said earlier that these corruption accusations were all "conjecture" ?

No, you don't honor facts, Mr. "He's curing AIDS."

Spence, Probably someone has brought this up before.. If you believe the RSSB teachings, whether it be version 1, 2, 3 or 86, why are you here? I know version 1 says to avoid intellectual arguments once you have accepted the path and are initiated. Thenceforth you are enjoined to work for liberation of your soul by stilling the mind and riding the shabd to pure regions of rapture so that you never again will be compelled to take rebirth in this filthy cesspool of Pind (the physical universe). You know there is no end to the mind game. Believers generally don't come here, with some exceptions, and non-believers will never be satisfied. Wouldn't meditation and satsang be more of a priority than this blog?

I mean, do what you like. You are a stalwart contributor here, but there are oceans of maya to cross and life is short. Just sayin'.


You're obviously not able to keep up with what is being said between Spence and I. No worries, he's unable to keep up himself. But I'll give you a clue, I was never outright accusing RSSB Cuzzo of fraud. So in your attempt at comparing our "arguments" it would be best for you to judge the man you've come here to defend who claims RSSB's fam wants to save the African babies from AIDS.

Gosh, arrogant, patronizing, and dismissive too. You're right
though, I haven't pored over the investigation's legal minutia.
I suspect you haven't either and are letting bias fill in the blanks.
We all do of course.

However, your extreme anger and personal bias is evident
in the overreach of your vitriol. Attributing a "We are a cult"
remark to Charan Singh (without a shred of proof) shows
the depths of your hatred. Your apology rings as hollow as
the rest of your rants.

That said, I wish you the best. We all fall short in dealing with
the real enemy inside of us.

"We have met the enemy and he is us". Walt Kelly

Spencer, you're amusing.

You discount the observations of a RSSB insider who was very conversant with the connections between Religare and RSSB. You call those observations "conjecture." Yet you have shared dozens of comments relating to God, supernatural realms, and other entities for which there is zero demonstrable evidence.

Methinks you have a massive defect in your own vision, yet you criticize others who are seeing much more clearly than you do. Keep it up. Those who are ignorant of their own ignorance are the last to know about it.

I read few remarks about the Dhillon group of companies being related to GSD but as I searched the company website, I found it is owned by some millionaire names Kewal Singh Dhillon and has no connection whatsoever with GSD

"Gosh, arrogant, patronizing, and dismissive too. "

Thanks, Dungeness. That means a lot to me.

Thanks, Dev.

I didn't know if Kewal was related to the other Dhillons or not, but this quote from the Times of India raises suspicion of a relationship-

"Kewal Singh Dhillon, has such a fetish for wristwatches that he has distributed nearly 1,000 of them among his supporters and members of his election campaign staff."

Charan Singh also had a wrist watch fetish. Coincidence? Or are wristwatch fetishes genetically heritable?

I'll let you decide.

Jesse



Thanks, Dungeness. That means a lot to me.


That's the spirit!

"I'll let you decide."

How can you let other decide ?
If others are to decide, they won't wait for your letting them decide,
If you are thinking YOU are letting them decide, means you have taken the decision first.

after wrist watches, what next you want to include - fans and curtains ?

What's to be decided by the way, brilliant HELIZL Jesse ?

One Initiated,

I'll let you decide of you think your very serious reply to an obviously sarcastic comment would put you in the category of an online "sperg" or not.

I'll also let you decide if you think Charan Singh had an obsession with curtains or not. I'll let you decide if you want to search through "the books" and talk with satsangis whether or not Charan asked people to bring curtains to India for him so he could avoid paying taxes like he did with his bucket loads of wrist watches.

I'll let you decide whatever you want to decide, really.

Jesse

One Initiated,

I'll let you decide if you want to read the contents of this link with some pretty specific details about Charan Singh's likely illegal attempt at smuggling personal gifts with the use of free satsangi mule labor.

http://www.oocities.org/rssbdata/questionable.htm

I'll let you decide how much of a creep Charan Singh probably was and how unsaintly his illegal behavior was.

Jesse

Jesse,

Again you are only talking about others' experiences
and pointing to random blog posts.

But you are not talking about the first hand experiences.

Do you realise that we have some great accounts posted here
on this Brian's blogs as comments ?
Which are real, rich and first hand experiences of the posters.
What's your take on those ? All illusions ?

When you get trapped in the tricks of the mind,
you will happen to only believe the failures
and call all the successful accounts as illusions.

Do you realise your behaviour is almost exactly the same as
all those who have failed ?
- Lost faith on the Master and The Path
- Curse the Master
- Whole hearted belief on the failed disciples accounts
- Call all the successful ones as illusions
There is a set pattern and you are no exception.

If you have surrendered yourself to your mind
and decided to go astray, it's a sad situation.

I wish you'll see the light and experience the truth,
much before the setting of the Sun.

One Initiated,
You are literally reading me quotes from your cult's handbook on a website written by an ex cult member.

You ask about first hand experiences-

"What's your take on those ? All illusions ?"

And my answer is "Yes." Absolutely I think that as far as people seeing things in their head when they sit still for a few hours it is all illusions. As I said earlier- auto suggestion.

When you can find a way to prove otherwise, let me know. Otherwise, keep rambling about your cult while your Greedy Guru gets richer and richer and your country gets poorer and more corrupt. Doesn't matter to me.

Jesse

Hi Brian

You wrote

"You discount the observations of a RSSB insider who was very conversant with the connections between Religare and RSSB. You call those observations "conjecture." Yet you have shared dozens of comments relating to God, supernatural realms, and other entities for which there is zero demonstrable evidence."

The demonstrable evidence can only be within one's own experience, or the yearning for such experience that comes from within.

And there are centuries of anecdotal experience as well.

As for rumors and slander, I see you place real faith in these. Worship that.

"We do not see the world as it is. We see it as we are."
Anais Nin

Spencer, you're right.

I find someone, Tara, who socialized with Gurinder Singh/Charan Singh and who comes from a family with four generations of experience with RSSB, and who exhibits a lot of knowledge about the business dealings of Gurinder Singh and the Singh brothers, to be much more credible than someone, you, who has no direct knowledge of these affairs, and who claims to have experienced supernatural realms of reality though you provide zero demonstrable evidence of this.

Why should anyone believe your statements over those of Tara?

Brian

I get that you want to believe the Tara narratives as it's polemic flatters your own. However, your description of that author...

"Tara, who socialized with Gurinder Singh/Charan Singh and who comes from a family with four generations of experience with RSSB, and who exhibits a lot of knowledge about the business dealings of Gurinder Singh and the Singh brothers,"

.... Is not actually correct.

Unlike your claim above the narrative does not contain 'Baba Ji said to me..." No claims of first hand accounts with Baba Ji nor first hand witness of any personal private events or behind the scenes behavior directly witnessed by the author.

The narrative is filled with conjecture about what' might be ' or' probably is ' happening. And to a lesser extent a lot of Hollywood / people magazine kiss and tell references to "a good close friend who is in the inner circle confided in me that..."

The narrative is filled with financial information anyone can get from the news. The emphasis on finance and investment and the complete naivete about spiritual philosophy, including any connection with a mature Satsangi she respects for their spiritualitythrows the objectivity of the narrator into serious doubt.

You and I do not agree on many things, but I do respect the core foundation of your belief in Atheism as grounded in your experience at the highest ethic of personal truth. I don't question that. I honor it.

The author has no such objectivity.

Hi Brian

You ask
"Why should anyone believe your statements over those of Tara?"

They should not believe anything that can't be verified personally. They would include slander just as readily as spiritual experience.

But if there were one thing I couldn't verify but chose to believe, it would be some positive place of future progress whose vision and belief actually brought me closer to that.


Jesse,

"And my answer is "Yes." Absolutely I think that as far as people seeing things in their head when they sit still for a few hours it is all illusions"

Because you've not yet seen inside your head.

Once you will see, you will realise it's not just seeing,
it's experiencing the Authority.

"Because you've not yet seen inside your head"

Neither have you, One Initiated, which is why you're online trying to convince me of this supposedly wonderful inner experience that is so pure and addicting that it makes men into angels.

If you were seeing God in your head, you'd have no time to argue with me.

Be honest with yourself. You've seen nothing. You've heard nothing. And you're in a cult.

Jesse

Like I said,

As you are currently trapped badly in the mind games,
It's impossible for someone to even tell their own experiences to you currently.
That's a sad situation you are in right now.
You can reason anything and anyone - and that's the duty of mind.

You will convincingly accept the experiences of failures,
and reject the valid, proven and rich experiences,
however both claims just by telling - for there is no other way.
Exceptionally - the failures doesn't even need to prove anything,
they have just to say "NO" "NOTHING" and it's agreeable.

Exclude me, I was not even telling about myself either,
What about Spencer, 777 and Jim,
these guys have shared their beautiful inner experiences.

When someone says there isn't water in a transparent glass -
You: "OK Accepted."

And the other one says it's filled with something
which taste beyond any possible taste in this world,
You reply: "No" I can't see it.
Him: "It's invisible, can't be seen. You've to come up and taste it, it's amazing"
You: "There are more people saying there is nothing"
You: "No, I won't even bother to come up and taste. It's not visible, I don't think it exist"
Him: "Your wish" 😌
Him: "By the way, if ever you will change your mind at all, the glass is always available
to be tasted and experienced, don't let your guilt and ego to pull you always back from tasting it"

Thanks for repeating the propaganda, One, but I read it all years ago as a satsangi.

Yes reading all years is still easier,
than to wake up at 3 AM and sat for 2.5 hours
for continuous 40 days.

honestly, did you ever ?
before coming to the conclusion of illusion ?

It takes a lot of guts and is not easy to be strict on yourself.
We forgive our own mistakes so easily,
whereas for the exact same mistakes by others,
we are harshly judgemental. Think in silence.
It's an eternal grip - A Mahajaal (Guru Nanak).

40 days is a small timespan,
worth the experiment, the results are outstanding.
And the flavour is amazing.
A truly scientific person would surely do that.

Hi Jesse
You write
"Thanks for repeating the propaganda, One, but I read it all years ago as a satsangi."

Was that RSSB?
When?

What hapened?

Jesse :
"" If you were seeing God in your head, you'd have no time to argue with me. ""

ALL the time with ALL in capitals

Jesse, You can't know, . . don't judge such a situation in so many of 10M disciples

777

777, all 10 million are liars and frauds, including you.

"Was that RSSB?
When?

What hapened?"

Spencer, what happened is that I learned that RSSB is full of sh*t and its followers are generally not good people. I also learned that the leader of RSSB who calls himself God happens to be at the center of a lot of illegal activity which i don't want to be associated with.

Jesse

Hi Jesse
So, you were initiated?
How long ago?
Did you practice the meditation at all?

I was initiated somewhere between 2005 and 2009 by a cult member named Frank Vogel in a hotel meeting room in Chicago. It was so lame that I don't even remember when it was.

I practiced the meditation, had some "mystical experiences" which I don't believe were "mystical" at all, and I am now here trying to have discussions with rational people, which you are preventing me from doing because the cult floods message boards where ex members dare to speak their heretical views on so-called sant mat.

This began happening on other online communities I found, which is a pretty telltale sign of a cult i.e. inability to accept that people think you're wrong.

Hi Jesse

You wrote
"inability to accept that people think you're wrong."

Interesting.

If you can accept the same what's the problem?

I have an interesting story about Frank, for another time.

Hi Tucson

You asked why I comment here and noted..

"You know there is no end to the mind game. Believers generally don't come here, with some exceptions, and non-believers will never be satisfied. Wouldn't meditation and satsang be more of a priority than this blog?"

Let's pretend for the moment that in Meditation, looking through the scrolls of history (including the point of history we are currently living through) , we find in our last life we were friends. And in our next life all of us here, Brian, you, Jesse, Manjit, Jen, One, 777, Dungeness, are all going to be family and neighbors, and for me, most disagreeable, that Brian will be the head of a family that I have the misfortune of being born into at his son! Once having accepted this as fact, that I must return, then the question.. What can I do to make things go more smoothly?

Let's follow this fantasy story for a moment. Let's say a wizard gave you the chance to communicate with these folks before hand and grease the wheels. Especially with the guy who is destined to be your next dad.

The rules of engagement are simple.
He is going to be in great conflict with you as a rebellious son is viewed by a narrow minded father.

You have a chance to help him accept someone he believes is absolutely wrong, as decent, and worthy of both compassion and honor : the exact attitude of a truly great parent, who will never understand completely their kids but supports them 1000% with every cell in their body (that would describe my dad in this life).

Now, if at any point that future dad though you might be right that would actually destroy the opportunity to lay down the impressions of tolerance for the next.

So you must do two things. Maintain the disbelief of those around you, and find a way to engender their tolerance, acceptance and good will even while personally they think your are dead wrong.

But its all just fantasy, right? The one who will pull that family through it and actually bring them to the Path once more will be the woman who will play the role of Mom, who, right now, is in meditation, and had left this world several years ago, but who knew your future Dad very well.

So while I am also providing you the reasons, I'm maintaining my role as the oddball who is not to be believed.

Only the heart could discern the truth of that.

There was no internet when I learned about RSSB. The only info I could find on them came from themselves. Had i read the account on Jesse's link, that would have ended my interest there and then.
If the master is not GIHF, then the whole thing is a fraud. A deception from day 1. You know this.

PJ
This has been a long debunked narrative. But people will believe without question what they will.

Contact Indian Embassy in New York City as I did years ago after reading this questionable narrative. Let them confirm for you what they confirmed for me.

I made a phone appointment with the Embassy "Secretary"..actually more like the Embassy manager.

He confirmed that it is customary, part of the actual expectation, that friends and relatives use their declaration limit to bring things in for friends, relatives, even for one's Guru. Entirely legal and expected. He even asked for the name of my Guru and the location in India, then replied "Yes, yes, entirely normal."

A second narrative circulating at the time was that people were smuggling in Pcs under their declaration limit as their own personal goods. But as with all the above, everyone showed everything at customs, and indicated the PC was going to be a gift.

I asked the Secretary if this was legal, or if there was some issue with bringing technology into the country.

"No. It is certainly not a problem, so long as it is within the visitor's declaration limit and they are willing to pay whatever duty remains on the additional amount. Very standard, and nothing unusual there. Gifts of technology from the West are quite popular.. "

Believe what you will.

Believe one 's own prejudice.

Or go to the minimal effort to pick up the phone.

It's all a reflection of what is in you.

Delared, yes. But he specifically says that he was bringing things in undeclared. But I'll grant you this, he doesn't say it was by order of Charan Singh. Maybe this Mohinder guy just got carried away, and later Charan was embarassed by it.

Just accidentally deleted a long comment, but let's get this straight.

Spence called the extremely busy and disorganized Indian embassy, they took time to answer his questions about Gurus, and the current staff during this computer era knew the details of import duties during the 1970's.

I'm willing to bet Spence is, just as he was when he claimed to know everything about Gurinder's family's business, full of sh*t.

There's no way they'd waste the time to answer your stupid questions about 1970's imports. I've had to talk to the Chicago consulate and NY embassy for legitimate VISA related things and I simply don't believe you.

The more you post, the less I think you're honest. Every single thing posted about your God is met with an immediate rebuttal that you claim is so sound and true only until we find out it isn't. Just like "they're curing AIDS in Africa" until oops.... Ranbaxy sold dirty meds even after getting caught doing it. You didn't do your homework.

Jesse

I had to make an appointment with the embassy.

Call the Embassy. Make an appointment.

Even undeclared items that you own can be given as gifts, they said.

Jesse, your flames of bullying cleanse my soul, thank you.

Spence says: "And in our next life all of us here, Brian, you, Jesse, Manjit, Jen, One, 777, Dungeness, are all going to be family and neighbors, and for me, most disagreeable, that Brian will be the head of a family that I have the misfortune of being born into at his son!

The one who will pull that family through it and actually bring them to the Path once more will be the woman who will play the role of Mom, who, right now, is in meditation, and had left this world several years ago, but who knew your future Dad very well."

Spencer, absolutely horrifying! Hope you are not psychic and this is just a dream (more like a nightmare). Jesse as a brother - all out war lol

"I had to make an appointment with the embassy."

Sorry Spencer, but I don't believe you. Sorry.

I trust myself, and I recognize your kind of deceptive behavior.

Jesse

Jesse
No problem.
No one should believe either of us.

But when you post an unverified accusation against anyone, don't be surprised when it is challenged.

If they are really interested in truth anyone can do as I did, make an appointment with the Indian Embassy and find out.

We live in an age when fake news, unverified accusations, basically slander, fills the interned and is accepted as truth.

And clearly this Church has its share of propaganda.

But truth is something else. Brian defined the standard: fact. So here it is.

Call and check if you are interested.

And avoid bullying, Jesse. It undermines your credibility.

Jen

You wrote
"All out war."

What are you fighting to defend?
What do you believe is being threatened?

I may be misguided, but it seems I'm usually on the defensive against some slander or another.

Was there ever a time here when you were not at war with someone or something?

War has its place, but before jumping there, because there is always collateral damage, please help me understand your answers to the above questions.

Dialogue is much preferred.

Can you love someone you don't like?

I think that's what it means to avoid judgment and live in a world with many different people, each like family..

Your bro

Spence

Spencer,

I don't like Jesse. I think he is all about creating trouble here on this blog. I really have to stop reading and posting here. Its not a nice atmosphere, to me anyway, people just constantly fighting. Whats the point. It used to be different. Jesse is just here to mess with people's minds.

Thank you Jen
Your annoying oddball (slightly delusional) brother

Spence

"Jesse is just here to mess with people's minds."

There's no reasonable way to talk to rs cult members. If you think the Vedas or the Bible or baba whoever inspired space travel (a common claim among all indian religions) then you're likely crazy.

Spence,

I don't think you are "annoying oddball or slightly delusional" :)

No probs bro.

Cheers
Jen

Hi Jesse! You write: "There's no reasonable way to talk to rs cult members. If you think the Vedas or the Bible or baba whoever inspired space travel"

Oh! So you're not aware of the history of Jack Parsons, the famous occultist, who designed "solid fuel" which enabled NASA's shuttles to get into space?

Hey, I know you're a fan of "pop-media", so perhaps you should, instead of getting the real, deep, intimate history between the occult & "inspiring space travel", you should just watch this current TV show on Jack Parsons, and how his occult beliefs led a nation into space?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Angel

I like you, Jesse :)

Please come back and play tomorrow, I must sleep & perchance dream....who knows what scientific discoveries I may uncover!!

More Wiki (drearily superficial :) on Jack Parsons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_(rocket_engineer)

"John Whiteside "Jack" Parsons (born Marvel Whiteside Parsons;[nb 1] October 2, 1914 – June 17, 1952) was an American rocket engineer and rocket propulsion researcher, chemist, and Thelemite occultist.

......

Parsons' occult and libertarian writings were published posthumously, with Western esoteric and countercultural circles citing him as one of the most significant figures in propagating Thelema across North America. Although academic interest in his scientific career was negligible, historians came to recognize Parsons' contributions to rocket engineering. For these innovations, his advocacy of space exploration and human spaceflight, and his role in the founding of JPL and Aerojet, Parsons is regarded as among the most important figures in the history of the U.S. space program. He has been the subject of several biographies and fictionalized portrayals, including the television drama Strange Angel."

Yes Manjit, I get it. Some people who see things invent important things sometimes.

Who cares?

There are life changing inventions and discoveries happening all the time, and when I read about them and listen to the inventors, almost never do they mention milk coming from murthis, sai baba ghosts or their guru manifesting his radiant form in front of them and telling them how electricity works or otherwise.

You're dealing with a tiny fraction of important things in the world and attempting to make it look like an intrinsic link exists between ALL important things and supposed astral projecting mystic voodoo.

Sad to say, but Brian’s Blog is getting to be another “ Fight Club”, following the example of how David Lane’s Radhasoamis Fight Club became when Professor Lane could no longer handle even moderating the abusive Ad-hominem attacks of members against each other and had to retire from moderating the site, turninig it over to James Bean, who has turned it around and made it an interesting site to read again. If any one here is curious to see how it all ended, with border line insanity and melt down by ubusive members left unmoderated too long, search exsatsangi yahoo group, scroll thru the porno links until arriving at the War against Professor Lane! I believe ( and recognise ) some of those abusive Fight Clubers posting here using new pseudo Avatars.

I hope Brian Hines does not let this Forum deteriorate in to another RSS Fight Club RSSB Anarchy.

Church Mambers here might voluntarily take their own personal Inventory, as Alcoholics do in AA.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder

Peace,
Jim Sufherland

Jim,

My favorite websites are 4Chan and Gab, so an outright fightclub sounds great to me actually.

I don't see being polite as something extremely valuable and often times those calling for everyone to be polite are doing it for less than honorable reasons. It's a big shut-it-down tactic in American politics. Maybe you have good reasons for wanting heavier moderation, but if it's just because people get butthurt for being called out, then I think it's a bad idea.

My work here is pretty much done here, so people whining about me for not writing 3rd rate spiritual poetry can take a sigh of relief. They can go back to the safety of politeness and unchallenged cult beliefs, ufo's and stigmata-experiencing inventors.

Not sure if it's me who you're accusing of changing names, but if you think that, then you're wrong. I've posted on this site years ago with my name, Jesse. Brian wrote a little ex satsangi thing about me years ago, too.

Still the same Jesse. Still a straight G

Went to find a good UG (the OG) Krishnamurti quote and voila, Brian had already written about the guy.

Here's some great wisdom for all, especially the conflicted and "polite" westerners who in our lifetimes are likely going to have to face the horrors we normally just inflict on poor brown people abroad in order to gain cheap starbucks and oil-

"Instead of being what you are -- unkind -- you pursue the fictitious opposite put before you -- kindness. To emphasize what we should be, only causes strain, giving momentum to what we already in fact are.

In nature we find the animals at one time violent and brutal, at others kind and generous. For them there is no contradiction. But man is told he must be always good, kind, loving, never greedy or violent. We emphasize only one side of reality, thus distorting the whole picture."

More to unpack in those few UG sentences than anything else we're talking about here, including hidden money African AIDS cures and transcendentalist engineering breakthroughs.

Jesse wrote
"Kewal Singh Dhillon, has such a fetish for wristwatches that he has distributed nearly 1,000 of them among his supporters and members of his election campaign staff."

Charan Singh also had a wrist watch fetish. Coincidence? Or are wristwatch fetishes genetically heritable?"
------------------------------------------------------
I think there are millions of people in India who may have fetish for wristwatches or whatever but does that mean they all are related to GSD.

You directly accused GSD for that Dhillon Group of Companies selling liquor as if it is owned by him or he has any role in that company whereas the truth is that the owner of the company is not even RSSB initiate....

I came across this comment the other day, can't quite recall whose, and which I cannot immediately locate via a quick search, that within the RSSB lineage, succession always follows direct appointment by the previous master.

Assuming this is correct, then this is what I'd like to know : Given that the existing master appoints his successor, why then are there so many different lineages within Sant Mat?


Actually I'm asking this question only of those who subscribe to the RSSB ideology. Non-believers and "exers" can of course explain this easily by putting this whole thing down to power-grabbing, plain and simple, by whoever is able to. What I'm requesting for now is the believers' POV about this question.

Thanks!

This is to bump up my comment, above, where I request RSSB followers/believers/sympathizers their view on this :

(a) The 'fact' that, within RSSB, the Master necessarily directly appoints his successor within his (the former's) lifetime (do you agree with this?) ; and

(b) If the above is true, then surely the proliferation of denominations within Sant Mat seems curious? Do you have some explanation, some theory, about this proliferation?

I'm requesting only for the believer's explanation, because the scoffer's explanation is simple, the scoffer can, without effort, come up with quite a few plausible explanations. On the other hand, I cannot imagine what kind of explanation the belIever might put forward (while still remaining a believer).

Since nobody replied to your question about successorship, I'll tell you what I told myself when I was a believer.

1. Masters sometimes appointed more than one successor for different locations and disciples, and the masters didn't feel the need to tell anyone about it. I also thought that it was possible that the successors were appointed non-verbally or non-physically at times and that there may have been dozens, hundreds, or thousands of sat gurus initiating people and guru-ing all over the world in secret.

2. Masters who were competitors of my guru were frauds who'd usurped the holy mantle of "guy who gives talks about god and gets rich", and that I had some ability to discern between the real and fake because, of course, I was a lucky marked soul. What this meant in reality is that I made excuses for my lineage (asli) and found faults in all the others (nakli).

There were more things I thought in those days but this is what I remember now.

Thanks for your response, Jesse. Absolutely, you qualify as believer, because you’re clearly channeling your earlier, believing self here.

Your #1 makes sense. That is, there isn’t necessarily any reason why that shouldn’t be so. Of course, your #2 seems a bit contradictory of your #1 (that is, not necessarily contradictory, exactly, but not quite in agreement with your #1 : after all, if your particular “master” can anoint twenty different successors, why then would his master not have, in turn, anointed twenty others, so that your own master can very legitimately end up having nineteen bona fide and perfectly genuine “competitors”?). But of course, I realize that was your (past) emotion speaking, not your reason. And you clearly no longer stand by those views.

You’re saying -- going by your #1 -- that RSSB followers would view (provided they shared your idea, expressed in your #1) that most (if not all) other Sant Mat denominations also are bona fide vehicles to the Ultimate. And so what we have today is not just one GIHF, but many GIHFs. That would seem to be the inescapable implication of this line of thought. Correct?

Great. That does answer my question.

I realize you can only speak for yourself, not for others, but would you have any idea at all what view, if any, the RSSB organization officially holds about this? About other “competitor” denominations?


Also, it would be interesting to know what other RSSB believers and sympathizers (or for that matter ex-believers and ex-sympathizers, channeling their earlier, faithful selves, like you did) felt about this. After all a sample size of three or four or five, while still being anecdotal, would be at least somewhat more general than a sample size of just one. Especially when that one is what is referred to in these parts as an “exer”.


PS : You know, Jesse, I realize, going by your past comments here, that it was far from your intention to boost up RSSB when you said this here, but still, this implication -- without going into the ‘true’ or ‘false’ or the right or wrong of the whole RSSB ideology/theology, that would be a whole other discussion -- would actually speak well of RSSB. I suppose I’d feel decidedly more sympathetic (other things being equal) of a religious denomination that viewed its other sister denominations with respect, than one which viewed followers of other denominations within the same religion as evil sinners and doomed hell-bound heretics. Like they do in Islam, for example.

"Like they do in Islam, for example."

Islam is the "too easy" answer. A lot of ISKCON type of Hindus think that Shakti cult followers are pretty much doomed devil worshipers. A large number, possibly a majority, of Sikhs think Namdharis should be massacred for not believing in GGSJ as God. Charan Singh cut off communication with Agra RS and also Namdhari Sikhs, and though was quiet about it, seemed to think they were not truly spiritual people or something by the way he mentioned it in that weird book published just prior to his death.

Sectarianism is a universal aspect of religion. Not just Islam.

Also, my two choices weren't contradictory.They were applied to each instance on the basis of "merit" which I now think was not merit at all.

It was just that if I thought someone was holy I considered the possibility that they were legitimate heirs not mentioned by the Guru because he knows best. But if for any reasons rational or not I disliked them, such as with Kirpal Singh's RS or unaffiliated sects like the Nirankaris, I'd apply the second rule.

But I know I'm not alone on this either because I had conversations with others who agreed.

"...would actually speak well of RSSB. I suppose I’d feel decidedly more sympathetic (other things being equal) of a religious denomination that viewed its other sister denominations with respect"

But you didn't ask about the gurus beliefs or the sect's official stance. You asked about the beliefs of believers. There are many believers within the Catholic Church who emphasize the sayings of various saints that elude to the possibility of God's grace giving salvation to all. Others emphasize the line you might have heard that says "there is no salvation outside the church."

But the Church has doctrine that says one more than the other, and what various believers may or may think sounds good might not be right according to the church.

Same goes for RS. Me and my friends in the sangat's theories and justifications have nothing to do with what RSSB teaches or what Gurinder, the only and final authority in the sect, believes. If he says tomorrow "all who were initiated by Kirpal will burn in hell" then that is the official RSSB teaching since the Guru is the religion. What I said or believed meant and means absolutely nothing so there's no reason to think RS respects other denominations based on my theory.

Jesse, you make a valid point. With centrally-driven, near-dictatorial movements/religions/organizations like RSSB, or for that matter the Roman Catholic Church, the de facto beliefs and attitudes of the followers of these faiths have limited value if the aim is to find out what these religions really are about. In these cases, it is the diktat from above that would trump de facto belief on the ground every time.

(Unlike less centralized religions like -- and once again the example that comes to mind is the same as the example I’d put forward last time -- Islam. And this time it is Islam that comes across as more democratic and more open in principle, for better or for worse, to diverse interpretations and observances, than either the RCC or RSSB.)

So that, in asking the question that I did, the truly relevant factor would have been to focus no so much on individual believers’ views, but on the official RSSB view (preferably the view of the RSSB Gurus themselves, whether past or present) about other “sister” denominations and the Gurus leading those denominations. I take your point.

.

My question remains (in more coherent form now thanks to Jesse), should anyone here have that answer : How does RSSB -- that is, the RSSB organization, and preferably one or more of the RSSB Masters -- explain the existence other sister denominations, as well as the “Masters” leading those denominations? (I mean, given that succeeding Masters are always, apparently, personally anointed by the predecessor Master during the latter’s lifetime?) And what is its official stance towards these other denominations and other Sant Mat Masters?

Recent news suggest that Shivinder has finally broken his silence and filed a case against brother Malvinder because the case against both of them is tarnishing the reputation of Gurinder Dhillon. So, Shivinder (who is next in line to become babaji) says that he had no control over the doings of Malvinder. Anyone who believes this is a fool. If Malvinder and Shivinder both get dragged to court then obviously the name of Gurinder Singh also gets dragged in (plus Satsangs assets can be frozen). Also imagine the blow to all the followers. But if Shivinder now cries foul then this way one of them can be saved.

@ Dungeness

What is a cult?
Great Master’s teaching was so open. He said do not believe even a Master unless you experience it yourself. Do not be tied down to something that says don’t go anywhere else. You have a Master now you can’t go anywhere else. If you go anywhere else, you are being unfaithful. That is a cult. That is not the work of a Perfect Living Master. Perfect Living Master’s say go anywhere you like and find the best thing you can.

https://youtu.be/DolLFKvQt40?t=2587

Jesse
you have really gone mad.Are all dhillons in India or abroad related to RSSB. There may be thousands of persons with dhillon surname and they may be dealing in lottery,wine whatever.The dhillon grouo mentioned by you has no relations with RSSB or Master. You know it and only pretending to defame RSSB.I think you have lost senses..

Dharam, I'm pretty sure I said that I was not sure it was the same Dhillons in that Dhillon group.

But the RS Dhillons sold dangerous tainted medicines, so that's worse than selling alcohol and lottery tickets.

Your master and his family have unethical business practices due to uncontrollable greed.

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