« A test that science passes and religion fails: reality "kicks back" | Main | Why do gods and spirits matter? »

May 07, 2018

Comments

Hey Marko! Thanks man, that's very kind of you :)

Previous user-ids? I think I first posted there as Satori_boy, then mad_false_guru, then manjit_d_illusion, all sequentially with no overlap and clear "hand-over". Now it's just manjitd101.

Siddhis? Really, it's not been something I've ever had any interest in, at all.

That said, reality can get pretty strange, can't it? I suspect we all have moments of, experiences with, occasionally in our lives at least, phenomena we would call "supernatural" or "paranormal"?

Personally, I have never been interested in or got attached to such things, so I barely pay attention. I feel if you DO start paying attention, or at least too much, you can get trapped in such things; premonitions, telepathy, true-speach, synchronicities etc.....they all occur, but delusion lies in elevating their importance or becoming obsessed with them.

Dear Spence - you have made some wild, inaccurate & unfair representations of our discussion. It is "understandable". Basic awareness of psychological transference and projection would suffice to explain it.

You write: "You do not need to explain my experience, to denigrate it in any way."

But brother, this discussion began with my post to Jen, attempting to simplify & distil the "inner cosmology", and with your response "denigrating" and "explaining" MY and EVERY OTHER MYSTIC's pre-1750 experiences!

I have not once "denigrated" your experience in this entire thread, only attempted to place it within it's historical context. It seems parity to you feels like "denigration"? That's an ego issue right there that needs investigating, I suspect.

Yet, you seem to know how far below your experiences are those of mine and countless others who haven't been initiated by the magical satguru and his all-powerful mantra? Please remember how this discussion started, with your ignorant and judgemental post about my "imaginary schema" and experiences way below those of yours.

Do you notice how your framing of this discussion with this question is pure transference?

You write: "You are offering your own interpretation of ancient writings. It is novel."

Oh boy!

It is "novel"?

Ah, the delicious irony of transference!

If by my "own" interpretation you mean every single spiritual, mystical & philosophical text in eastern mysticism history pre-1750, then you may have a point.

If by "novel" you mean going back into pre-history, then you may have a point. Novel to me though means "new". You know, like Radhasoami cosmology!

Such irony! You have read Radhasoami books telling you a cosmology, and now you have come here to parrot it when somebody is discussing the exact same phenomena within a more informed, comprehensive and historically integral conceptual framework.

Please, your original post was pure "concept", and the pretence your experiences can place the experiences of other people you are patently uninformed and ignorant of is simply laughable!

Again, please educate yourself about this "novel" "imaginary" schema before you try discussing it. I had the courtesy to read every single RSSB published, at least 2 or 3 times before I ever posted on a forum. If you want to discuss "astral", "causal", the history of these "novel" and "imaginary" schema, at least learn the basic fundamentals. Sheesh Spence, even the average Theosophist knows these concepts - ancient and ubiquitous throughout all eastern traditions going back into ancient history - and you are completely oblivious, mindlessly parroting RS dogma and theology; and wait, quelle surprise, it is an elitist, exclusive and "chosen one" at that! How lucky you must feel to have recognised the divinity of Gurinder :)

Education break (in addition to the link provided earlier, which clearly shows the Sikh gurus also believed in this "novel" and "imaginary schema"!:


"Karana sarira or the causal body...........The Indian tradition identifies it with the Anandamaya kosha,[web 1] and the deep sleep state, where buddhi becomes dormant and all concepts of time fail, although there are differences between these three descriptions.........

Suksma sarira or the subtle body................................The "dream state" is a distinct state of the subtle body,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Bodies_Doctrine_(Vedanta)

"Anandamaya means composed of ananda, or bliss. In the Upanishads the sheath is known also as the causal body. In deep sleep, when the mind and senses cease functioning, it still stands between the finite world and the self."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosha

Again, this is somewhat absurd, having to provide any links to this at all.....this is quite common knowledge, and ancient, and clearly written throughout texts like the Granth Sahib for eg.

So the question is, just how much a product of my own personal "imagination" this "schema" is? Just how "novel" is it?

Or, perhaps, Spence has only really been exposed to official RS literature and CONCEPTS, and therefore assumed his initial response to me, declaring these to be my own "imagined schema", was deeply mistaken and based on absolutely nothing except faith that his RS books must be correct?

I mean, they present such a lovely sounding, simple cosmology. And how special we are, too, having found the right one!

It simply must be true, right?

PS - note of caution, don't pick the wrong satguru, right Spence? As you probably know, Ishwar Puri was supposedly banned by RSSB from being an official satsang speaker a few decades ago for some alleged "impropriety" with female satsangis. How does that work, then? Anyone posing as a guru is a viable vehicle to get one out of the "10th door of the body" which is vast distances "above" the body (in RS and only RS)? Are there any rules, or concepts we should be aware about when it comes to issues like, Spence? :) Can ANY "Satguru" do? There's a fair few of them out there?

Ahh, it's all ego, all concepts, all words. A little bit of a nice feeling in meditation too, that's always nice.

But still pretty clueless about the nature of reality.

As we all are, billionaire businessmen included!


Oh Manjit thanks. I knew i was reading your stuff under other name and i remember the posts i think under satori were really deep. I Love you Man. And remember when debate was who is and was not initiated i always had you above rs technique and i still have highest opinion about you. Siddhis yes...i am only interested in one and that is Unconditional Love!

Hey Marko,

Wow, satori_boy!! That is a huge blast from the past, some 20 years ago I think?!

" Siddhis yes...i am only interested in one and that is Unconditional Love!"

Man, that is beautiful :o)

I love you too brother!

Manjit in case i decide to go of forums please please come to me someday find me. And thanks for all your teachings and insights. I consider you as necessary as mother is necessary for a child to be born. Love to ya all!

777 on May 08 wrote,
The Venezualian representative Luce or Lux, of polish origin
( strange coincidance : was a classmate of the Jean Paul Pope )
saw all his life a strange Indian man , not in dreams but regularly
in his life , who said to him “Look for Me"
After 29 years he was for business in Bangkok ………
………
He Immediately flew to Beas, where Charan said to him : "What took you so long"
Genuine spiritual experiences In & outside Juan, long before proper (haha, what an expression) initiation, Just nice to know plus again : a lot is subjective but in RSSB there is a
lot of gross materiall non-possible stuff
I heard that Luce told the story to that Pope - don't know if he believed Him.

…… 777 This was the only method to reach the marked souls by the True Masters, irrespective the Pope believes or not.
As Hazur Charan Singh said, Saints can do whatever they like. There is no restriction on them.
There are countless miracles performed by Hazur Maharaj Charan Singhji , especially In the decade of 60, the period in which Sant Kirpal Singh’s miracles were becoming popular.

777 on May 08 wrote,
The Venezualian representative Luce or Lux, of polish origin
( strange coincidance : was a classmate of the Jean Paul Pope )
saw all his life a strange Indian man , not in dreams but regularly
in his life , who said to him “Look for Me"
After 29 years he was for business in Bangkok ………
………
He Immediately flew to Beas, where Charan said to him : "What took you so long"
Genuine spiritual experiences In & outside Juan, long before proper (haha, what an expression) initiation, Just nice to know plus again : a lot is subjective but in RSSB there is a
lot of gross materiall non-possible stuff
I heard that Luce told the story to that Pope - don't know if he believed Him.

…… 777 This was the only method to reach the marked souls by the True Masters, irrespective the Pope believes or not.
As Hazur Charan Singh said, Saints can do whatever they like. There is no restriction on them.
There are countless miracles performed by Hazur Maharaj Charan Singhji , especially In the decade of 60, the period in which Sant Kirpal Singh’s miracles were becoming popular.

Jen, you wrote:
I'm attracted to the 'void' and 'nothingness', pure consciousness, joy and bliss. Is that where we go when we die I wonder.
The Book of Mirdad... Chapter Twenty: Where do we go after we die? This Could be an interesting read on the subject. If you wish you can download, Here’s the link:
https://www.google.es/search?rlz=1C1AOHY_esES708ES709&ei=2c4BW_7kKYm2sQG2zrXoDw&q=the+book+of+mirdad+pdf&oq=the+boo&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39k1j0l9.2300913.2307276.0.2309944.27.13.0.0.0.0.165.1014.0j7.8.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..20.7.1041.6..0i67k1j0i22i30k1.175.TXQnHhm6N78.
Cheers!

Thanks Juan, much appreciated,

I read Chapter 20 from the link you posted - about wanting to leave this world...

"Micayon: I would be weaned away forever from the Earth. How can I do it, Master ?

MIRDAD: By loving the Earth and all her children. When Love is the only residue of all your accounts with the Earth, then will the Earth acquit you of her debt.

Micayon: But Love is attachment, and attachment is bondage.

MIRDAD: Nay, Love is the only freedom from attachment. When you love everything, you are attached to nothing."
....
Found this youtube, beautiful music, beautiful words...
The Book of Mirdad - Quotes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOz-yGMMoT8

"For that which you hate is bound up inseparably with that which you love, like the face and the reverse of the same coin. If you would be honest with yourselves, then must you love what you hate and what hates you before you love what you love and what loves you."

Hi Manjit

You are having difficulty with my plain admission that I am only speaking of my personal experience.

And return to your safety zone of your interpretation of spiritual literature.

It appears that you continue to return to citations which you believe suggest that the higher regions and bodies associated with them are beneath this level of consciousness we experience here.

Is that what you claim?

My experience is the opposite. Meditation increases understanding and discrimination, and opens up vast regions in internal experience. Quite the opposite of lowered levels of consciousness, such as sleep and semi conscious drowsiness.

I can't ask you to believe something I have written.

What I ask and strongly promote is that you adopt a practice and work diligently at it.

Then you will not only have your own experience to report, and to add to others, but your will also have a firm foundation in testable reality which which to interpret these ancient writings you are steeped in.
All of them have a practice of some sort they are connected to.

That is the point.

The ongoing discussion particularly between Manjit and Spencer is really interesting. I appreciate Manjit’s clear explanations backed up by many and varied experiences and a deep philosophical understanding. Likewise Spencer’s perspective though often viewed here as religious, also appears to me as very well articulated and grounded in extensive experience.

So are these two talking of the same thing? In particular, when it comes to those states where mind is stilled/much slowed down and the ‘I’ no longer operates? Some possible clarification of this would enable better understanding for all of us, in my view.

Based on what I remember of Sant Mat (RSS) teachings, the dreaming state was downplayed and associated with ‘lowered attention’. This is reflected in Spencer’s recent comments re dreams and semi conscious drowsiness he expresses to be states of lower consciousness. Whereas Manjit’s posts and Tibetan Buddhist teachings give some emphasis to sleep states for developing greater awareness. One could say that Sant Mat emphasises the opposite direction in regard to importance of ‘consciousness’ - deep sleep (lowest) - sleep - waking state and then superconsciousness. In the informative, interesting book ‘Waking, Dreaming, Being’, author Evan Thompson draws on extensive meditative and neuroscience/research knowledge to get a better handle on what consciousness is. The title itself shows the importance Thompson gives to dreaming, particularly in regard to the hypnogogic state and lucid dreams. He stresses the sense of ‘I’ (as ego) is loosened when lucid dreaming therefor adding to increased awareness. From the Tibetan Buddhist view (as I understood it in the book), the main thing is maintaining/developing awareness throughout all states - waking, sleeping/ lucid dreaming, deep sleep. Further this is likened to the process of dying - the key, concerns maintaining awareness especially in the transition spaces ‘bardos’. Thus, ‘one’ goes through the death process consciously. Ultimately a very subtle awareness is attained free from mind - this being the foundation for all other consciousness. Very cool stuff in my opinion.

That Sant Mat does not venture into such territory can be challenged. I recall gaining grateful insight from Jagat Singh’s book where he talked about the need to form the habit of ‘clear thinking’, which can be viewed as the result of ‘mindfulness’ - ongoing awareness of thoughts/thinking. Also if my memory is correct he mentioned the importance of cultivating the ‘sushupti’ state, or the state of ‘waking sleep’ where all sorts of interesting ‘internal’ stuff can be witnessed, - lucid dreaming?

Adhering to the view that death is not the end of things, I’m wondering how much in common ‘dying while living’ has with ‘consciously dying’? Do both approaches finally result in the same realisation/s? Or is there a sizeable gulf between two quite different interpretations of consciousness? What do you guys think?

Best wishes

Hi Spence - had you ever seen this clip?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6VTci1Bunk

I feel bad debating this topic with you, it's like stepping into a boxing ring with someone wearing a straight-jacket! What I would suggest is, be careful which rings you do step into - and, as evidenced in this thread, it was you who started denigrating & claiming you understood the experience of others via your own experiences (ie, experiences interpreted via the medium of RS books).

Good luck and peace to you, sincerely!

Hi Tim - brilliant, thanks for your excellent comment! Actually, I was not planning on posting here at all for several months, was just going to send a few private emails then not check the blog/forums out for a few months. But your post was excellent in the sense you at least seem somewhat aware of what I'm trying to get at!

First of all re. Jagat - excellent and well spotted! Over at RSS forum, some 16 years ago, I specifically pulled out that quote from Jagat's only RSSB publication that quite clearly describes his proto-lucid dream methodology. I used it precisely as support for the notion that the entire initial phase of RS meditation is really a consciously induced lucid-dream method. Both the methods and experiences itself, of the Radiant form and astral, are absolutely identical in numerous ways.

Stars, moons, suns, (for me TUNNELS was a very frequent marker), radiant figure holding your attention etc, the scenery.....it is utterly indistinguishable from lucid dreaming experiences I've had countless times. I've read every single available description of RS inner experiences, from many groups, and I personally am certain that the best of RS experiences are identical to the best of lucid dream experiences. Please note, I am not suggesting this is very height of all "Inner experiences", I am discussing merely the initial, dualistic & visionary experiences......in my...to be blunt quite considerable....... experience the "lucid dream" state is an ingress into all these other states (astral, OBE or HOWEVER you want to label it)

The "radiant form" is our own inner daemon that has been experienced for millennia in numerous traditions, projected upon the physical person of a "Satguru"....who is, ultimately, just as human as the rest of us. Ultimately, we need to RECLAIM that inner daemon or we are forever trapped in dualistic paradigms. IMO, of course :)

Amrit vela - simply historically the period of the night where "REM sleep" therefore attempts at lucid dreaming will be most successful.

What I personally find most interesting & important is, just KNOWING this can vastly & wildly increase the potential for us to achieve these states. When we de-mystify them & empower the average human being.....things get easier.

Spend years "withdrawing" all your "currents" from your body?

Sheesh - don't you know complete 100% "body paralysis MUST occur for lucid dreaming to occur, and that body paralysis occurs NATURALLY every night?! You're looking in the wrong place, understand the sleep and dream cycle, make use of it! You're attempting to climb a mountain when a cable car goes up every night :)

You know what, I could write several books on this, both on my own experiences & techniques....but I don't have time as my lunch break is almost up, haven't done bad for a few minutes typing this up! :)

That said, I will just say, Tim, thank you, excellent & knowledgeable comment, it's what caused me to post again! It's always a pleasure to pick up on "understanding", even if we don't necessarily agree - that's how growth occurs! But first, the courtesy of "understanding".....

Anyway, here's some random quotes from books I've read over the years, copied & pasted from the RSS forum I originally posted it to. They don;t really relate directly, but some do indirectly.....and I found them interesting! Cheers and take care!

"When a child of six or seven, or possibly later, I was much alone, amusing myself in a very large garden........It seemed no surprise, at this age, that I contacted very lovely music. I just stood still and absorbed it, and it made such a deep and lasting impression.......it filled my being with harmony and joy......The music I experienced was not exactly heard, it was perceived, and seemed four dimensional, solid, filling my very being"

"At the..... age of seven years my first "out of body experience" (although I was not aware of it at the time) was induced by cholorform. At the moment anesthesia took over......sounds of music of a tone I had never heard before came to my ears. The music was so enchanting that I left my bed and commenced to walk in the direction of the sound. It led me to a winding path and through a beautiful valley decked with magnificent flowers and radiant colours, the perfume of which seemed to exhilirate me. Eventually I arrived......I saw a white robed figure beckoning me onward...."

"In August 1663, Joseph (Saint Joseph of Copertino) was seized by a fever and grew steadily worse......the day before he died, he....said he heard the sound of a bell which was summoning him to God. Passing into an ecstatic state he rose from his death bed and flew from his cell......."

"I was sitting in a certain chapel, and while I was taking pleasure in the delight of some prayer or meditation, I suddenly felt within me an unwonted and pleasant fire......now from the beginning of this fiery warmth, inestimably sweet, till the infusion of the heavenly, spiritual harmony, the song of eternal praise, and the sweetness of the unheard melody, which can be heard and experienced only by one who has received it, and who must purify and seperated from earth, nine weeks and some weeks passed away."
(full book from this source, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/176595)

"I am not sure whether I had been sleeping or was just on the verge of sleep, when I began to hear this incredibly beautiful music.....It so thrilled me that I felt about to burst, and at one time I seemed to rise up, to be floating..."

"About five years ago I woke from sleep to find "myself" out of the body.......
I became conscious of what for want of a better term, I must call music; gentle and sweet it was as th e tinkling of snapping water in a rocky pool and it seemed to be all about me....the contentment was supreme. I said to myself "this must be the voice of God". I could not endure the happiness......"

"I was sixteen years old when I took a nap in the living room. As I awoke, I heard faint strains of music.....then I knew it was not of this earth. It was a blend of several timbres but only a bell-like sound was identifiable.....it was indescribably beautiful. Time was suspended."

These are all quotes from D. Scott Rogo's "Paranormal Music Experiences", volumes one & two; "A Casebook of Otherworldly Music" & "Music of the Spheres".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I realised I was dreaming......I rose through black sky that blended
to indigo, to deep purple, to lavender, to white, then to very bright
light. All the time I was being lifted there was the most beautiful
music I have ever heard. It seemed like voices rather than
instruments. There are no words to describe the JOY I felt........It
was a long, slow slide back to wakefulness with the music echoing in
my ears. The euphoria lasted several days; the memory, forever."
A reader's account after basic experimenting with lucid dreaming found in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge


Manjit

Cheers Manjit

Thanks for your response, info and quotes re lucid dreams etc. I recall a similar one Evans used in his book. Those Tibetan Lamas have great insight into the nature of mind and consciousness.
Always good to learn and share understandings from folk on a similar wavelength - all in the pursuit of a broadened more integrated ‘bandwidth’. I checked the you tube clip - can’t beat a good laugh with Monty Python - “I have a fwend in Wome……”

Tim

I have a question for all the atheists or former students of RSSB, what gives you comfort? This world is so terrible, there is a lot of suffering for yourself and someone else ... I do not understand - how a man has to live without concrete experience, hope for a happy finale - we should weep tears, that we are mortal beings, fragile, everything passes and is ephemeral. Fear and suffering are unimaginable, where to find some strengthening, support, how to achieve happiness?
Please help me.

Look around and see the extreme unhappiness and tragedy in the world and see how lucky you are because there are so many people in worse situations than you are. Be grateful.

Novice,

This is what I do when I'm depressed. I tell myself I have two legs, two arms, eyesight, hearing, a brain that is still working (only just), a body that is still enduring, and think of everything I can to be grateful for.

Don't expect some guru to save you, live this life to the best of your ability, see the good in others not the bad, focus on the positive wherever you can find it, don't slip into negative thinking because its a trap, don't give in to victim energy, feel your own inner being and sense your own inner power.

Hi Tim!

You asked

"I’m wondering how much in common ‘dying while living’ has with ‘consciously dying’? Do both approaches finally result in the same realisation/s? Or is there a sizeable gulf between two quite different interpretations of consciousness? What do you guys think?"

The range of mystical experience is broad and varied. To die while living is to go through the experience of death fully conscious, fully awake. To come and go, as you like, and find pasture in those better places with you Beloved. Every day.

When the consciousness withdraws from the body it can fall into a sleep state. Manjit is right about that. However, that is lack of mental focus and discipline. Dreaming does not improve one's ability to distinguish truth from fantasy. It is a state informed largely by fantasy.

And occasionally you may witness something else. But that could just be the brain, or hallucination. In a reduced state of consciousness you have no control over the experience.

Consider a practice that helps you stay fully awake. And that actually expands and develops your conscious awareness. Why not? Isn't that the goal of actually living in the here and now, instead of passively existing asleep in a dream?

A dream is a prison cell, no matter how beautiful it may seem at the time. The lovely vistas are merely projections. So why approach it as a drug addict?

If you want to enter into the experience of death, if you truly want to master it and traverse that door fully awake, it can't be done in a dream. A dream where you believe you are awake and in control is a dream. That's part of the dream, not reality.

Awake to a heightened degree you are not subject to sensations without the ability to control that experience. You see more in this place, fully awake. All the regions are right here and you do not need to go to sleep. Meditation can unlock that.

Then you are not the prisoner of your own fantasy.

That is why those who have had significant internal experiences turn to a guru. Many advanced individuals follow Sant Mat because they realize how broad those realms are, and they wish to have a more direct, intimate and aware experience. They were Zen teachers. They were involved with psychic phenomenon. They were mystic Christians, they were mystic Jews, they were mystuc sihks, New Age meditators, and yes, experimental psychologists.

But they soon realized they were tiny fish in an immense pond, and didn't like being affected by things that crawled through the door they had opened.

So they submit to a much more gradual but controlled experience with the greatest friend and partner anyone could ever ask for.

Because the inner realms are all a part of reality, they are not going to change. But our ability to witness them will change as we develop. Less dreaming, less fantasy, greater wakefulness.

At some point you will realize how asleep we are in this wakeful state. Because you will have access to a much more wakeful experience. Then, in comparison, concepts and words completely fail to represent truth. And therefore discussions such as these largely wasteful.

One of the first lessons in meditation that we learn is to witness our own thoughts, and to understand the influence on our thinking from the impressions and conditioning we have undergone throughout life; from our parents, friends, society, and the time in which we live.

People who leave Sant Mat often can't go through that yet. They are not ready to face themselves.

Those are very important things, and no escape into other worlds, or even from our own practice can ever satisfy if we have not allowed ourselves to learn just who we really are. Then we can rightly, and sustainably, learn more about the world as it is.

Therefore self - realization before God realization. And for that, meditation is the best way. And for that a Teacher is necessary. Without a good Teacher, the process is limited to your flawed judgement. At that point it's just masturbation.

To advance, at some point submission is the only way. Submission to a higher wisdom.

You can tell some folks here don't believe there is a higher wisdom than there own.

But who would dare attempt brain surgery without submitting to good teachers, for many years?

The work is only as difficult as we are resistant to seeing ourselves fully awake as we are. Ego is the barrier. Submission to a good teacher is the cure.

Thanks for the answer "anon"

You say that I feel internal power, but I do not know what it is. The human mind is poor and limited, it could not create a world or a complexity.
The human mind is also a machine of thoughts that are fallible, and many philosophers are skewed from ideas to hypotheses and nothing more. Many religions come up with some nonsense.
Therefore, maybe I do not trust anyone but the other poets, they knew suffering and the fact that they are nothing, that they are dust, a figure that will fall apart. This world is negative, every word is ego, there is some grudge in every thought. I am tired of this world, I have enough people and beliefs. Many people commit suicide, I also tried and I think about it, but like any mind, I'm afraid of death because I do not know anything about it.
I really would like real gnosis and consolation to exist.

Am I to feel my essence and power? Does it mean that we are all gods to ourselves? It means that God is in every man, but he hides behind the mind, so you call this inner power, about which I do not know anything?

You call the trap the negativity, but I do not want to cheat myself. I'm healthy and what? am I to enjoy? And what about the others? I can not be happy. Either I am healthy -good, but I know that I will be old or I will die - there is also an option in this field of tears and suffering. What this world is fucking up! I hate him!

Why am I here?
What is the meaning of life when there is no purpose? What (for fuck) atheists based on their value system?
Man is equal to an animal - everything is allowed?

No, there must be a purpose, a plan. That's how cheerful, happy you are, because you wait for nothingness? for a vacuum? I will not understand it, it is damn degrading.
I apologize for my not good English / vocabulary and anger, I am in a difficult depression.

Hi Spencer

Thanks for your reply!

I get from the first part of your response that dying while living and consciously dying are more or less the same thing? Of course you add that for a practitioner of Sant Mat one of the results of this is that one gets to hang out in better places with your beloved i.e. the Inner Master. You speak with conviction about this and all I can say is that in terms of the Sant Mat teachings you are fortunate - Bhakti is now where it’s at for you.

With regard to the dreaming and sleep states discussed earlier, I do not share your point of view that dream and sleep states are ‘less than awake’, fantasy states. When investigating some of these Tibetan Buddhist approaches to consciousness it seemed to me to be a highly logical way to approach and gain deeper understanding of what reality and ‘our’ reality is. After all the average bod spends nearly a third of their life ‘asleep’ - why not endeavour to develop ‘awareness’ while in the dream/sleep state particularly if one is meditating also in the waking state? Awareness through all states will surely point to knowledge regarding the illusory nature of the ‘self’? or as someone described most humans as ‘asleep in the world of duality’. I believe Evan Thompson does a great job exploring the nature of all this in his book, which is extensively backed-up with modern neuroscience findings. From your previous posts I think you have a scientific outlook? I recommend the book. In fact works such as this go a long way to explaining the nature of mind/consciousness in today’s terms. Sant Mat Teachings need to get with it and incorporate/utilise (not subsume/reinterpret) such perspectives in my view.

Further, in regard to gaining ‘awareness’ in dream/sleep states it also makes sense to me that dream yoga techniques can be useful in exploring and dealing with unresolved issues in areas of our unconscious mind (e.g. negative beliefs, suppressed emotions, unresolved issues etc). So in response to your claim that ‘people who leave’ Sant Mat are not ready to face themselves/their past conditioning etc, I disagree. Some folk will definitely have faced their ‘history’ prior to joining Sant Mat. In fact, I think some people who do not do this before they get initiated and start meditating could well be heading for trouble. As you must know focused regular meditation starts to stir the pot and all manner of scum comes to the surface. A percentage have a hard time dealing with this. Therefor in my view, some may be more suited to different meditation approaches or none at all - maybe a series of conscious-connected-breathing sessions would be of more value? That ‘advanced’ individuals follow Sant Mat may or may not be true and points to a belief that Sant Mat is superior. Conversely one could say that both former devotees and current followers are now attracted to various forms of Buddhism, Christianity, new age meditations, nature experiences ‘oneness’ teachings etc, because they could no longer reconcile/make sense of their own experiences and evolution within Sant Mat with how it seems to be currently operating today.

I believe that whatever helps us to get a better handle on the workings of the mind and the nature of consciousness and where ‘soul’ fits has got to be good.
I agree that some form of laying down/letting go of the ‘ego’ and submission to a higher power is integral to this.

All the best

Hi Tim!
Thanks for recommending Evan Thompson. I'm reading his book Self Consciousness in Neuroscience, Meditation and Philosophy. He approaches the subject of intrinsic activity with great respect for the role of objective and awake observer, from a scientific point of view I like. I'm interested to see where he goes with this.

May I ask what practice you have engaged in and what your experience with that practice is?

Hi Tim
Reading through Thompson's works there is much I agree with and can verify.

He points to the issue of memory retention when one awakens from a dream. The same can be said of deep meditation. We may not remember the experience. But that doesn't mean we were unconscious or that nothing happened.

The human mind has limited capacity for retention.

Thompson doesn't claim dreaming is being fully awake. He does claim that it is a level of conscious awareness that is different and possibly quite independent of our day to day wakefulness.

My experience is that there is a range of consciousness. Formal research on sleep and anesthesia verifies levels of consciousness defined by our awareness of sensory input.

Where Thompson moves this forward is promoting that state where we are not aware of body sensation as also a legitimate state of consciousness, even where the brain appears to be at rest or idle. It is a state of internal, intrinsic consciousness.

That range spans symbolic dreams (rem sleep), dreamless sleep but also,
Wakefulness that incorporates a higher level of conscious experience.

The promise of spiritual meditation is to bring all this up to conscious awareness so that we do not lose retention and can recall and understand, as well as witness these experiences each in their sphere. The dream is seen as a creation of mind informed by other real memories and sensations; the sensory picture of the world is seen as the real time reconstruction of mind using memory and other brain enhancements to create perception ; the worlds beyond are witnessed as direct experience without the intermediary of mind or memory. The last is most vivid of all. And when we are attuned to it,
Creates a lasting impression on the limited human brain such that it is no longer forgotten as a dream. In that state, what was normal activity is understood to be a dream of its own.

That is the point where mind is truly the servant of soul. The brain witnesses and retains the super-conscious experience that it used to ignore, unable to organize or reconcile it,now is able to follow and store memories of that higher experience as well.

Higher consciousness, to be more aware of who we are, what has conditioned us, what we are actually doing, and the effect upon others, and upon time itself, and aware of others as they are, not as the brain reconstructs them.

Sant mat / yogic meditation is actually out of body experience in awake state by merging in Sound current/ Atomic energy. It is not lucid dreaming or astral travel which are done in hypnotic states or half awake-half sleep states.

Hi Vinny!

I agree.
But if we become one with the object of our love, one with the very fabric of energy that makes all this, then while we may report our witness, who was there to witness?

When observer and observed are one, is that consciousness? Not according to the brain. And yet it is more awake than we ever were.

Hazur Baba Jaimal singh, first Saint of beas used to listen to Sound current whole night after day-long army duty by placing rifle butt between the two legs in sitting on floor position. By merging Ruh in sound current, clairvoyance is gained, remote viewing is gained, even NASA and America is afraid of Saints who have become one with atomic energy. America may be suppressing research on consciousness/ Shabd/Christ consciousness/ Atomic energy with atheists as puppets or paid trolls.

After all the average bod spends nearly a third of their life ‘asleep’ - why not endeavour to develop ‘awareness’ while in the dream/sleep state particularly if one is meditating also in the waking state? Awareness through all states will surely point to knowledge regarding the illusory nature of the ‘self’? or as someone described most humans as ‘asleep in the world of duality’

As I understand it, awareness through all states is the mystic's goal. Rather than devolving to a lowered state of consciousness, however, the mystic starts the meditative discipline from the wakeful state. They ascend to the super conscious state gradually from that initial stage.

Dreams can generate brief intuitive flashes, but there're mostly blurred or incomplete and may be deceptive. Importantly, they're not under your control and can't be reproduced. Even in so called lucid dreaming.

A lucid dreamer for instance may have an inkling that
he's dreaming. He doesn't like the way the dream's
narrative is progressing and so he threatens his co-
dreamers "with waking up" if they don't agree to his plot changes. They gasp and meekly agree and so he goes
on dreaming. Only when the lucid subject wakes up
does he realize the "others" were part of the dream
and he's been tricking himself

After all the average bod spends nearly a third of their life ‘asleep’ - why not endeavour to develop ‘awareness’ while in the dream/sleep state particularly if one is meditating also in the waking state? Awareness through all states will surely point to knowledge regarding the illusory nature of the ‘self’? or as someone described most humans as ‘asleep in the world of duality’

As I understand it, awareness through all states is the mystic's goal. Rather than devolving to a lowered state of consciousness, however, the mystic starts the meditative discipline from the wakeful state. They ascend to the super conscious state gradually from that initial stage.

Dreams can generate brief intuitive flashes, but there're mostly blurred or incomplete and may be deceptive. Importantly, they're not under your control and can't be reproduced. Even in so called lucid dreaming.

A lucid dreamer for instance may have an inkling that
he's dreaming. He doesn't like the way the dream's
narrative is progressing and so he threatens his co-
dreamers "with waking up" if they don't agree to his plot changes. They gasp and meekly agree and so he goes
on dreaming. Only when the lucid subject wakes up
does he realize the "others" were part of the dream
and he's been tricking himself

Quote Manjit : https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/201553


That was cool.

I look forward to reading up more of your posts there (there's a link to all of your posts at the bottom of that page) later on.


Hi Spencer - glad you (did) like? Evan Thompson’s book, though based on your recent post you must be an incredibly fast reader, assimilator and concluder! It’s a big book. Would be mentally intimidating for those with little knowledge of neuroscience/meditation. Took me weeks. I got the impression Evan was quite experienced both in regard to his own meditations, buddhist/yogic perspectives and modern neuroscience - he’s done significant research with pioneers in this field. Well that’s what I thought. I really enjoyed it a few years back and now find myself re-looking at some of the notes I took. He argues that both neuroscience and various meditational practices need to be utilised together to gain better understanding of ‘consciousness’, though I think his concluding view, is that it leans toward consciousness not existing outside the human brain. I liked his use of scientific evidence to describe waking consciousness in terms of an on/off frame rate - actually like separate events but fast enough to give the idea of continuity/time. His view of the self as not so much illusory but as a process/event enacted by awareness is also cool.

To some this probably seems highly intellectual - but for me looking at this stuff as critically as possible helps with my own understanding in light of my own experience. Re my ‘practice’ - like to think I’ve kept an open mind over these years. Held strongly to the standard Sant Mat line initially while also doing lots of personal growth work. These days meditation and perspective has become more of an exploration into the truth of life and what consciousness actually is. I’m beginning to think that those adhering to Sant Mat teachings take on consciousness have a different view to that expounded by buddhist meditators such as Thompson. For example, in response to Dungeness’ (who may or may not be a Sant Mat follower) recent view of lucid dreaming as a lowered state of consciousness. My interpretation is that according to Thompson the Ego self is less ‘built up’ in this state therefor any technique that can further deconstruct it will lead to greater awareness and expanded consciousness. Make’s sense to me.

I remain of the view that there is no separate self as in the mentally constructed and maintained sense of ‘I’ . However, at present, I am also of the view that soul relates to the totality of consciousness - it is not something that was separated and kicked out of somewhere to become this lost ‘drop’ in need of a home - a story integral to Sant Mat teachings.

Regards to all

HI Tim

We may be speaking about the same elephant from different limbs.

A degraded mind and a degraded consciousness are different things.

What is similar is the idea that as mind thinks less, we see more.

When there is no mental activity we witness all creation. Unfortunately REM dreaming has a fully engaged brain. The brain burns as many calories during REM sleep as in the wakeful state. It is fully occupied creating the projections of a whole world filled with different characters.

In the wakeful state we perceive physical reality through the brain's reconstruction of perceptual input and we can test reality with our own body and awake mind to confirm this physical world.

In REM sleep we are engulfed in the fantasy creations of the brain. And we are not in control. The brain doesn't follow conventional logic in its creations. It follows a semantic language of process steps to organize input from emotional and sensory impressions and events pieced together from all over the brain into suitable vignettes for storage in fixed locations.

In meditation we note as observers the functioning of the brain,but we enlist a process that creates a new line of attention, dedicated to one ideal. That second line of contemplation, as we give it attention, begins to take precedence over the brain's stream of activity, and places that activity into a sort of maintenance mode as we enjoy the bliss of our Master's company. That line fades into the background completely.

That's the foundation. It's built on simple happiness.

Many great inventions happened after the inventor left the problem for a while and relaxed.

Their thoughts, les intense, slowed, and allowed that spark of genius to shine through.

Think less, but more focused attention, see more.

This is the evidence Thompson has missed, that insight and creation does not come from a highly active mind, but in moments of calm and relative inaction combined with focused attention.

Less brain activity, more results. It's as if the brain is only a filter and not the actual source of consciousness and ideas.

Combined with decades of physiology that has failed to locate the locus of consciousness, and you begin to understand the holographic model of Pribram and others : the brain is a storage and organization net that feeds into and takes its instruction from an invisible center that doesn't exist in the physical brain.


More about Karl Pribram's research. He and many others who followed, did decades of studies on the human brain, and specifically the dendrites proving that thoughts and memories do not reside in the neurons, but in the trees of dendritic branches and their networks surrounding the neurons, the billions of interlaced and interacting web of connections. He showed how, for example, the information and modification goes both ways. When you view something you like, it actually alters your retina. When you are touched by someone you love, your awareness that it is them, actually changes how your skin senses their touch. And the senses in your skin change. And those changes can happen spontaneously, from any direction, any location in the brain. Activity in the auditory areas can trigger activity in the visual cortex, as can activity in the frontal lobe.

So where does thought begin if the signals can go to and from thousands of different directions?

If your higher brain initiates signals that effect your brain stem's functioning, and vice versa, where is the actual locus of consciousness?

There is none in the physical brain. The observer, the you that sees and feels and comprehends isn't in the brain. The net of dendrites that surround the neurons help organize sensation and information in beautifully detailed ways. Like a lens that in focus provides a fixed picture from a much larger array of information. Like a filter that separates only a portion of reality. But thoughts themselves modify all parts of the brain, from higher functioning to lower, and vice versa.

There is no center of consciousness. It is merely a machine, a net, a lens, a filter that supports consciousness, but is not actually the cause of thoughts or conscious awareness. If a picture is the result of light filtered and focused through a lens, our thoughts are the result of data filtered and focused by the dendritic trees in our brain. They are only the lens, not the actual source, which has never been isolated in the human brain.

All the actual research there is points squarely to the fact that the brain is not the source of our conscious awareness, just a set of filters that are fed by and which also feed that awareness. Just as the lens of a camera does not contain the actual light source that it filters to produce the photo, the brain is like a lens of sensation and memory that supports our consciousness, but does not actually contain it.


Hi,
You have wrote many things about religion. I like your perception but I think you have to look at least once on the teachings of sikhism http://www.dhansikhi.com/gurbani-quotes/

Saartaaj Singh,

We have a saying which is that you can tell a tree by its fruits.

So what does it say about a religion if the fruits are that its adherents commit more female infanticide than anyone on earth?

Or if the fruits of your religion are Gurdwaras where fights break out every week and nobody ever has daughters for some strange reason? Should I study scriptures to learn to fight in temples over money?

It seems the religion itself has basically been diminished to nothing but empty rituals at this point anyway. Matha tek at this time, drink the water people wash their feet with at that time, hair obsession all the time.

The best Sikhs are Namdharis. They're more moral, and peaceful. Most "real" Sikhs want to kill them.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.
Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...