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May 07, 2018

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Hey Marko! Thanks man, that's very kind of you :)

Previous user-ids? I think I first posted there as Satori_boy, then mad_false_guru, then manjit_d_illusion, all sequentially with no overlap and clear "hand-over". Now it's just manjitd101.

Siddhis? Really, it's not been something I've ever had any interest in, at all.

That said, reality can get pretty strange, can't it? I suspect we all have moments of, experiences with, occasionally in our lives at least, phenomena we would call "supernatural" or "paranormal"?

Personally, I have never been interested in or got attached to such things, so I barely pay attention. I feel if you DO start paying attention, or at least too much, you can get trapped in such things; premonitions, telepathy, true-speach, synchronicities etc.....they all occur, but delusion lies in elevating their importance or becoming obsessed with them.

Dear Spence - you have made some wild, inaccurate & unfair representations of our discussion. It is "understandable". Basic awareness of psychological transference and projection would suffice to explain it.

You write: "You do not need to explain my experience, to denigrate it in any way."

But brother, this discussion began with my post to Jen, attempting to simplify & distil the "inner cosmology", and with your response "denigrating" and "explaining" MY and EVERY OTHER MYSTIC's pre-1750 experiences!

I have not once "denigrated" your experience in this entire thread, only attempted to place it within it's historical context. It seems parity to you feels like "denigration"? That's an ego issue right there that needs investigating, I suspect.

Yet, you seem to know how far below your experiences are those of mine and countless others who haven't been initiated by the magical satguru and his all-powerful mantra? Please remember how this discussion started, with your ignorant and judgemental post about my "imaginary schema" and experiences way below those of yours.

Do you notice how your framing of this discussion with this question is pure transference?

You write: "You are offering your own interpretation of ancient writings. It is novel."

Oh boy!

It is "novel"?

Ah, the delicious irony of transference!

If by my "own" interpretation you mean every single spiritual, mystical & philosophical text in eastern mysticism history pre-1750, then you may have a point.

If by "novel" you mean going back into pre-history, then you may have a point. Novel to me though means "new". You know, like Radhasoami cosmology!

Such irony! You have read Radhasoami books telling you a cosmology, and now you have come here to parrot it when somebody is discussing the exact same phenomena within a more informed, comprehensive and historically integral conceptual framework.

Please, your original post was pure "concept", and the pretence your experiences can place the experiences of other people you are patently uninformed and ignorant of is simply laughable!

Again, please educate yourself about this "novel" "imaginary" schema before you try discussing it. I had the courtesy to read every single RSSB published, at least 2 or 3 times before I ever posted on a forum. If you want to discuss "astral", "causal", the history of these "novel" and "imaginary" schema, at least learn the basic fundamentals. Sheesh Spence, even the average Theosophist knows these concepts - ancient and ubiquitous throughout all eastern traditions going back into ancient history - and you are completely oblivious, mindlessly parroting RS dogma and theology; and wait, quelle surprise, it is an elitist, exclusive and "chosen one" at that! How lucky you must feel to have recognised the divinity of Gurinder :)

Education break (in addition to the link provided earlier, which clearly shows the Sikh gurus also believed in this "novel" and "imaginary schema"!:


"Karana sarira or the causal body...........The Indian tradition identifies it with the Anandamaya kosha,[web 1] and the deep sleep state, where buddhi becomes dormant and all concepts of time fail, although there are differences between these three descriptions.........

Suksma sarira or the subtle body................................The "dream state" is a distinct state of the subtle body,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Bodies_Doctrine_(Vedanta)

"Anandamaya means composed of ananda, or bliss. In the Upanishads the sheath is known also as the causal body. In deep sleep, when the mind and senses cease functioning, it still stands between the finite world and the self."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosha

Again, this is somewhat absurd, having to provide any links to this at all.....this is quite common knowledge, and ancient, and clearly written throughout texts like the Granth Sahib for eg.

So the question is, just how much a product of my own personal "imagination" this "schema" is? Just how "novel" is it?

Or, perhaps, Spence has only really been exposed to official RS literature and CONCEPTS, and therefore assumed his initial response to me, declaring these to be my own "imagined schema", was deeply mistaken and based on absolutely nothing except faith that his RS books must be correct?

I mean, they present such a lovely sounding, simple cosmology. And how special we are, too, having found the right one!

It simply must be true, right?

PS - note of caution, don't pick the wrong satguru, right Spence? As you probably know, Ishwar Puri was supposedly banned by RSSB from being an official satsang speaker a few decades ago for some alleged "impropriety" with female satsangis. How does that work, then? Anyone posing as a guru is a viable vehicle to get one out of the "10th door of the body" which is vast distances "above" the body (in RS and only RS)? Are there any rules, or concepts we should be aware about when it comes to issues like, Spence? :) Can ANY "Satguru" do? There's a fair few of them out there?

Ahh, it's all ego, all concepts, all words. A little bit of a nice feeling in meditation too, that's always nice.

But still pretty clueless about the nature of reality.

As we all are, billionaire businessmen included!


Oh Manjit thanks. I knew i was reading your stuff under other name and i remember the posts i think under satori were really deep. I Love you Man. And remember when debate was who is and was not initiated i always had you above rs technique and i still have highest opinion about you. Siddhis yes...i am only interested in one and that is Unconditional Love!

Hey Marko,

Wow, satori_boy!! That is a huge blast from the past, some 20 years ago I think?!

" Siddhis yes...i am only interested in one and that is Unconditional Love!"

Man, that is beautiful :o)

I love you too brother!

Manjit in case i decide to go of forums please please come to me someday find me. And thanks for all your teachings and insights. I consider you as necessary as mother is necessary for a child to be born. Love to ya all!

777 on May 08 wrote,
The Venezualian representative Luce or Lux, of polish origin
( strange coincidance : was a classmate of the Jean Paul Pope )
saw all his life a strange Indian man , not in dreams but regularly
in his life , who said to him “Look for Me"
After 29 years he was for business in Bangkok ………
………
He Immediately flew to Beas, where Charan said to him : "What took you so long"
Genuine spiritual experiences In & outside Juan, long before proper (haha, what an expression) initiation, Just nice to know plus again : a lot is subjective but in RSSB there is a
lot of gross materiall non-possible stuff
I heard that Luce told the story to that Pope - don't know if he believed Him.

…… 777 This was the only method to reach the marked souls by the True Masters, irrespective the Pope believes or not.
As Hazur Charan Singh said, Saints can do whatever they like. There is no restriction on them.
There are countless miracles performed by Hazur Maharaj Charan Singhji , especially In the decade of 60, the period in which Sant Kirpal Singh’s miracles were becoming popular.

Jen, you wrote:
I'm attracted to the 'void' and 'nothingness', pure consciousness, joy and bliss. Is that where we go when we die I wonder.
The Book of Mirdad... Chapter Twenty: Where do we go after we die? This Could be an interesting read on the subject. If you wish you can download, Here’s the link:
https://www.google.es/search?rlz=1C1AOHY_esES708ES709&ei=2c4BW_7kKYm2sQG2zrXoDw&q=the+book+of+mirdad+pdf&oq=the+boo&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39k1j0l9.2300913.2307276.0.2309944.27.13.0.0.0.0.165.1014.0j7.8.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..20.7.1041.6..0i67k1j0i22i30k1.175.TXQnHhm6N78.
Cheers!

Thanks Juan, much appreciated,

I read Chapter 20 from the link you posted - about wanting to leave this world...

"Micayon: I would be weaned away forever from the Earth. How can I do it, Master ?

MIRDAD: By loving the Earth and all her children. When Love is the only residue of all your accounts with the Earth, then will the Earth acquit you of her debt.

Micayon: But Love is attachment, and attachment is bondage.

MIRDAD: Nay, Love is the only freedom from attachment. When you love everything, you are attached to nothing."
....
Found this youtube, beautiful music, beautiful words...
The Book of Mirdad - Quotes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOz-yGMMoT8

"For that which you hate is bound up inseparably with that which you love, like the face and the reverse of the same coin. If you would be honest with yourselves, then must you love what you hate and what hates you before you love what you love and what loves you."

Hi Manjit

You are having difficulty with my plain admission that I am only speaking of my personal experience.

And return to your safety zone of your interpretation of spiritual literature.

It appears that you continue to return to citations which you believe suggest that the higher regions and bodies associated with them are beneath this level of consciousness we experience here.

Is that what you claim?

My experience is the opposite. Meditation increases understanding and discrimination, and opens up vast regions in internal experience. Quite the opposite of lowered levels of consciousness, such as sleep and semi conscious drowsiness.

I can't ask you to believe something I have written.

What I ask and strongly promote is that you adopt a practice and work diligently at it.

Then you will not only have your own experience to report, and to add to others, but your will also have a firm foundation in testable reality which which to interpret these ancient writings you are steeped in.
All of them have a practice of some sort they are connected to.

That is the point.

The ongoing discussion particularly between Manjit and Spencer is really interesting. I appreciate Manjit’s clear explanations backed up by many and varied experiences and a deep philosophical understanding. Likewise Spencer’s perspective though often viewed here as religious, also appears to me as very well articulated and grounded in extensive experience.

So are these two talking of the same thing? In particular, when it comes to those states where mind is stilled/much slowed down and the ‘I’ no longer operates? Some possible clarification of this would enable better understanding for all of us, in my view.

Based on what I remember of Sant Mat (RSS) teachings, the dreaming state was downplayed and associated with ‘lowered attention’. This is reflected in Spencer’s recent comments re dreams and semi conscious drowsiness he expresses to be states of lower consciousness. Whereas Manjit’s posts and Tibetan Buddhist teachings give some emphasis to sleep states for developing greater awareness. One could say that Sant Mat emphasises the opposite direction in regard to importance of ‘consciousness’ - deep sleep (lowest) - sleep - waking state and then superconsciousness. In the informative, interesting book ‘Waking, Dreaming, Being’, author Evan Thompson draws on extensive meditative and neuroscience/research knowledge to get a better handle on what consciousness is. The title itself shows the importance Thompson gives to dreaming, particularly in regard to the hypnogogic state and lucid dreams. He stresses the sense of ‘I’ (as ego) is loosened when lucid dreaming therefor adding to increased awareness. From the Tibetan Buddhist view (as I understood it in the book), the main thing is maintaining/developing awareness throughout all states - waking, sleeping/ lucid dreaming, deep sleep. Further this is likened to the process of dying - the key, concerns maintaining awareness especially in the transition spaces ‘bardos’. Thus, ‘one’ goes through the death process consciously. Ultimately a very subtle awareness is attained free from mind - this being the foundation for all other consciousness. Very cool stuff in my opinion.

That Sant Mat does not venture into such territory can be challenged. I recall gaining grateful insight from Jagat Singh’s book where he talked about the need to form the habit of ‘clear thinking’, which can be viewed as the result of ‘mindfulness’ - ongoing awareness of thoughts/thinking. Also if my memory is correct he mentioned the importance of cultivating the ‘sushupti’ state, or the state of ‘waking sleep’ where all sorts of interesting ‘internal’ stuff can be witnessed, - lucid dreaming?

Adhering to the view that death is not the end of things, I’m wondering how much in common ‘dying while living’ has with ‘consciously dying’? Do both approaches finally result in the same realisation/s? Or is there a sizeable gulf between two quite different interpretations of consciousness? What do you guys think?

Best wishes

Hi Spence - had you ever seen this clip?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6VTci1Bunk

I feel bad debating this topic with you, it's like stepping into a boxing ring with someone wearing a straight-jacket! What I would suggest is, be careful which rings you do step into - and, as evidenced in this thread, it was you who started denigrating & claiming you understood the experience of others via your own experiences (ie, experiences interpreted via the medium of RS books).

Good luck and peace to you, sincerely!

Hi Tim - brilliant, thanks for your excellent comment! Actually, I was not planning on posting here at all for several months, was just going to send a few private emails then not check the blog/forums out for a few months. But your post was excellent in the sense you at least seem somewhat aware of what I'm trying to get at!

First of all re. Jagat - excellent and well spotted! Over at RSS forum, some 16 years ago, I specifically pulled out that quote from Jagat's only RSSB publication that quite clearly describes his proto-lucid dream methodology. I used it precisely as support for the notion that the entire initial phase of RS meditation is really a consciously induced lucid-dream method. Both the methods and experiences itself, of the Radiant form and astral, are absolutely identical in numerous ways.

Stars, moons, suns, (for me TUNNELS was a very frequent marker), radiant figure holding your attention etc, the scenery.....it is utterly indistinguishable from lucid dreaming experiences I've had countless times. I've read every single available description of RS inner experiences, from many groups, and I personally am certain that the best of RS experiences are identical to the best of lucid dream experiences. Please note, I am not suggesting this is very height of all "Inner experiences", I am discussing merely the initial, dualistic & visionary experiences......in my...to be blunt quite considerable....... experience the "lucid dream" state is an ingress into all these other states (astral, OBE or HOWEVER you want to label it)

The "radiant form" is our own inner daemon that has been experienced for millennia in numerous traditions, projected upon the physical person of a "Satguru"....who is, ultimately, just as human as the rest of us. Ultimately, we need to RECLAIM that inner daemon or we are forever trapped in dualistic paradigms. IMO, of course :)

Amrit vela - simply historically the period of the night where "REM sleep" therefore attempts at lucid dreaming will be most successful.

What I personally find most interesting & important is, just KNOWING this can vastly & wildly increase the potential for us to achieve these states. When we de-mystify them & empower the average human being.....things get easier.

Spend years "withdrawing" all your "currents" from your body?

Sheesh - don't you know complete 100% "body paralysis MUST occur for lucid dreaming to occur, and that body paralysis occurs NATURALLY every night?! You're looking in the wrong place, understand the sleep and dream cycle, make use of it! You're attempting to climb a mountain when a cable car goes up every night :)

You know what, I could write several books on this, both on my own experiences & techniques....but I don't have time as my lunch break is almost up, haven't done bad for a few minutes typing this up! :)

That said, I will just say, Tim, thank you, excellent & knowledgeable comment, it's what caused me to post again! It's always a pleasure to pick up on "understanding", even if we don't necessarily agree - that's how growth occurs! But first, the courtesy of "understanding".....

Anyway, here's some random quotes from books I've read over the years, copied & pasted from the RSS forum I originally posted it to. They don;t really relate directly, but some do indirectly.....and I found them interesting! Cheers and take care!

"When a child of six or seven, or possibly later, I was much alone, amusing myself in a very large garden........It seemed no surprise, at this age, that I contacted very lovely music. I just stood still and absorbed it, and it made such a deep and lasting impression.......it filled my being with harmony and joy......The music I experienced was not exactly heard, it was perceived, and seemed four dimensional, solid, filling my very being"

"At the..... age of seven years my first "out of body experience" (although I was not aware of it at the time) was induced by cholorform. At the moment anesthesia took over......sounds of music of a tone I had never heard before came to my ears. The music was so enchanting that I left my bed and commenced to walk in the direction of the sound. It led me to a winding path and through a beautiful valley decked with magnificent flowers and radiant colours, the perfume of which seemed to exhilirate me. Eventually I arrived......I saw a white robed figure beckoning me onward...."

"In August 1663, Joseph (Saint Joseph of Copertino) was seized by a fever and grew steadily worse......the day before he died, he....said he heard the sound of a bell which was summoning him to God. Passing into an ecstatic state he rose from his death bed and flew from his cell......."

"I was sitting in a certain chapel, and while I was taking pleasure in the delight of some prayer or meditation, I suddenly felt within me an unwonted and pleasant fire......now from the beginning of this fiery warmth, inestimably sweet, till the infusion of the heavenly, spiritual harmony, the song of eternal praise, and the sweetness of the unheard melody, which can be heard and experienced only by one who has received it, and who must purify and seperated from earth, nine weeks and some weeks passed away."
(full book from this source, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/176595)

"I am not sure whether I had been sleeping or was just on the verge of sleep, when I began to hear this incredibly beautiful music.....It so thrilled me that I felt about to burst, and at one time I seemed to rise up, to be floating..."

"About five years ago I woke from sleep to find "myself" out of the body.......
I became conscious of what for want of a better term, I must call music; gentle and sweet it was as th e tinkling of snapping water in a rocky pool and it seemed to be all about me....the contentment was supreme. I said to myself "this must be the voice of God". I could not endure the happiness......"

"I was sixteen years old when I took a nap in the living room. As I awoke, I heard faint strains of music.....then I knew it was not of this earth. It was a blend of several timbres but only a bell-like sound was identifiable.....it was indescribably beautiful. Time was suspended."

These are all quotes from D. Scott Rogo's "Paranormal Music Experiences", volumes one & two; "A Casebook of Otherworldly Music" & "Music of the Spheres".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I realised I was dreaming......I rose through black sky that blended
to indigo, to deep purple, to lavender, to white, then to very bright
light. All the time I was being lifted there was the most beautiful
music I have ever heard. It seemed like voices rather than
instruments. There are no words to describe the JOY I felt........It
was a long, slow slide back to wakefulness with the music echoing in
my ears. The euphoria lasted several days; the memory, forever."
A reader's account after basic experimenting with lucid dreaming found in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge


Manjit

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