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March 28, 2018

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To 777,...Should I follow Gurinder’s example?

Jim
He gave you the word freely, if indeed you received initiation.

Now you must use it as instructed. (Romans 8:5-13)

No one's job but yours.

777,

How is it okay with you that Gurinder speaks "vulgarities" ?!

The SOUND.

Yes, the Sound is the Shabd, Word, Vibration, Ringing Radiance, Creator, .........as we are told by Sant Mat Masters and Books, but truthfully, 777, since you seem to be the most vocal preacher of the Sound, if after you die physically, and loose your body, mind, and all consciousness , except the Sound, which would by the only possession you retain, will that satisfy your desire enough to remain in the Sound, ONLY , for Eternity? Be honest, and don’t spin it, because the Bible promises to give us the desires of our hearts.

Also, when you espouse the Sound, you suggest that only you hear it, and I and others must not have the Sound you hear. I have posted many times, that I hear it 24/7, and the Audio increases more, as I meditate more. Imhave heard it drmthe laat 30 years. ( that I am aware of )

But to me, I am greatful to be connected to the Sound, because it verifies I am connected to God, and the Master. But I also am interested in the rest of the Gifts of the Spirit as well.

Search “ Gifts of the Spirit” in the Christian Bible, if you have any interest at all, for any other Gift than Sound. ( or my blog)

If I had been at the Dera and heard Gurinder talking about sexual intercourse in a revolting way I would have been disgusted. Maybe I am more pure than this so called Master. Lust is one of the five deadly sins. My idea of a true Master is someone who is enlightened and pure in every way.

So Jim, were you being truthful when you told that story about the 69 stuff or were you delusional at the time? I need to know because your story made a huge impact on me.

What has the "SOUND" (which I hear and experience constantly) got to do with anything. Everyone has that inner connection with the audible life stream, not only some egotistical satsangis.

How is it okay with you that Gurinder speaks "vulgarities" ?!

Someone with a pure mind can utter any word
Even Jim ( and you ) would smile
when a 4/6 year old would use these expressions

May I point out b tw that the word 'vulgar' is french means: very common non intellectual non spiritual
( connected with the word Plebs ; street language )

Jim used it around December last week
accusing me and a Karim and others ( except him ) , in the American sense exposing his thinking/mind set
I never said that I ever enjoyed licking or sucking a vagina - I never liked that - always refused requests
for me that is the opposite of lust -
So this ball bounces back to the speaker who apparently finds all this sensational
and I feel now Gurinder sensed it too

Jim, You never answered my 2 times question : Did you tell Madame Sutherland , right after the reunion
I think you couldn't answer this truthfully without exposing yourself

I guess that Jim was/is hurted by my relaxed European attitude about sexual intercourse and our
lowest chakras and my mentioning cam4.com
There is no Sin there except when it is considered a sin in the mind

I see Gurinders remarks as telling a voyager for Melbourne
not to dwell on Amsterdam to much because you might
arrive way later at the planned destiny

777

PS
and much more important
Why you think I always say :
Sweet sweet Sweet Sound ?
Elixer, amritsar, , élyséeen, nectar, orgasmic ( above the eyes )

And yes : Every 7 chakras entity , when attending. . . , will hear it


To Jen,......YES, ....Gurinder said Exactly as I quoted him, on another thread. Also, my reaction was exactly as I felt. It was not only WHAT he said, but HOW he said it, and WHY he , GIHF, had human rectums and mutual Oral Sex positions on his mind in such a supposedly Holy Spiritual Retreat Center with his foreighn Guests present, who came there to hear and get answers to Spiritual Questions. And even sadder, was the chuckling and laughter of both females and males afer Gurinder asked the man if he knew what a 69 was? But the man first said he was soon to BE 69, i.e. his AGE, but then, Gurinder took the remark to Sex, which must have been what was on GIHF’s mind, and not the man’s age! And when the man became embarressed, ( as we all were), Gurinder never apologized for making porno jokes to a Spiritual mixed Audience of foreigners. The man, ( and audience) “ could” have taken his but joke , or 69 joke either way, i.e. heterosexual or homosexual,..! And it was not only me who felt embarressed, as another Anonymous poster posted, in the thread, that what I said was correct, and verified, because He also was there, along with others he knew, who were also embarressed. So, no one can bury that incident under a rug and say it didn’t happen. They mght delete the entire exchange from any recordings, but not from the memories from those of us who were there. So, I was not “ delusional” Jen. But I was, disappointed. Once he mentioned the 69 remarks, the fact that he asked the man if he knew what a 69 was, I could not then, help thicking about his throat cancer, and wondering if he got it by smokng tobacco, ....( which I doubt ) , or by doing Oral sex,.....like The famous American movie Star, Michael Douglas did.

To 777, yes, I did tell my wife about it, and she made a couple of remarks, such as “ I can’t imagine how you ever got invloved with these people.” But, she was never in to Sant Mat, so had ZERO expectations of Gurinder being any different that any other Indian we saw during our prior 12 day tour thru India. And again, 777, yes, we Americans do have an old Bigotry joke, that most likely was carried over from WWII,....” The French fight with their feet and F—- with their faces.” It is quite a common joke among older people like me, who were alive when our WWII Vets came home from France after fighting there. As for what I do in our bedroom, .....not much, .....but think about getting up to pee again. Doubt if you do much more, either at your age, other than brag. Hope I answered your questions.

If we have ever indulged in sexual intercourse without the aim of conceiving a baby,
how do we think that we are rightful to point fingers towards the Master ?

I remember a letter from Spiritual Gems (2).
A disciple asked the Great Master:
"Does the Master always know what's running through our minds and what we are thinking"
And the Master replied:
"Disciple always wish that Master should not know, but the face is Master does know slightest of the though which is going through the disciple's mind".

Master confronted the person and embarrassed him for his good,
to make him aware that HE is aware of what's on his mind.
Master wanted him to wake and get rid of the sexual involvements at this age now.

A Teacher, a master of the subject, always know all the possible mistakes a disciple can commit,
pointing a disciple's mistake openly doesn't mean that Teacher's mind is occupied with that.

And personally I find it funny that we expect that the Master to not even know anything about 69,
however I believe we all surely know the subject pretty well.

To those who are against the Master for this remark:
Have you ever watched a porn ever ?
Have you ever watched a 69 porn ever ?

If your answer is yes, then you are sure to have been embarrassed by the Master's remark, not for the reason that the Master has used that remark, but because of the fact that remark was not only working for the asker but also for you... and also for us all.

Similar to when a teacher in the class shames a child for his mistake openly and every other child who has committed the same mistake feels ashamed and also sympathises with that child and hates the teacher for bringing that in public.

We need to think again and evaluate our own state than HIS.

Oooh, Oh Jim

Did you never realized, the whole scene was not for the Butt, but man , . . but for You Sir.

When , -as you described so fanatically, hysterically the indulgences were SO Intense
and you said more than once here that you were SO glad , . . she wasn't there
then Why you told her immediately
and triggered that answer , you knew beforehand


Without Monsieur LaFayette and his 10 000 rifles, canons, soldiers, that day, . . there was no Jim, neither Madame Sutherland , . . neither any The United States of America
Please tell that the insulters

My PSA is 0,9 ( please note : less than One ) by His Grace

777

Considering those 12 days India extremely fruitful


This is becoming a Pornsang, instead of a Satsang. You continue watching your porncams, 777, and posting the links here. We all know where your Darshan is focused on now. That sound you claim to be hearing surely isn’t originating at your Third Eye. You are fooling yourself, but not me.

And OI, I don’t buy your “ Master knew what that man was thinking anout, not for a second. The sex thoughts were in Gurinder’s mind, not the man’s. The man was discussng Nutrition, not sex. He was completely innocent. Gurinder master baited him first, by changing his proper use of the English word, “ but “, to first, human anatomy of Butts, that could have been either female, or male, but then Gurinder used the man’s wife’s Butt making it a personal, embarressing non spiritual remark. If he had quit right there, at that point, it could have been laughted off as just a locker room boy’s joke. But, when the embarressed man countered Gurinder, saying he no longer even thought of his wife’s Butt, because he would soon be 69, HIS AGE! Gurinder then took it to the next level, making it porn, saying what most innocent decent Satsangis might say in his same situation,....Oh, Master, ....Masters aren’t supposed to talk about those things. Sure, any one old enough to masterbait knows what a 69 is, but that doesn't mean they came to the Dera to discuss porno with the GIHF in front of the entire Mixed Audience! Any of you Satsangis that give Gurinder a pass on that conduct are surely hypnotised, I wouldn’t leave my Daughter in the same room alone with Gurinder Singh now! Charan and Sawan Singh would be totally embarressed ( and should be ashamed ) to even have been mentioned in that room with us, let alone made such comments.

Happy Pornsang, I’m out of here!

Can't You admit anything ?
Not even about the french ?
... or disturbing your wife with that "dirt"

To hot in the kitchen ?

777

The reason why the satsangis sniggered when Gurinder made the remark is because of their feelings of guilt.
A true Master is more evolved than someone who makes these vulgar remarks.
.................
From One Initiated:
"To those who are against the Master for this remark:

Have you ever watched a porn ever ?
Answer: ........ NO
Have you ever watched a 69 porn ever ?"
Answer: ........ NO

I am surprised One Initiated, why would anyone dirty their minds with porn? Especially initiated satsangis who are on a path of purifying and elevating their mind.
.................

Jim says: "This is becoming a Pornsang, instead of a Satsang."

So true.

777 showing his true colours imo - yuk

Hi Jim

You asked

"if after you die physically, and loose your body, mind, and all consciousness , except the Sound, which would by the only possession you retain, will that satisfy your desire enough to remain in the Sound, ONLY , for Eternity?"

Word alone is eternal.

The Lord is that highest of sweet sounds, and this Word is the path to Him.

Taken up to the third Heaven, what could draw attention away?

Drinking clean pure water, who would turn back to dirty (mixed with worldly desires)?

Then time within, with Master is the only place we want to be, though we honor our duty here.

But it can take time to reach that true Word of Christ.

"13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. "
Hebrews 11:13-16

If you really want stuff, you can always come back.

Happy to see so see a lady gurmukh of my age
Sister, . . you are not alone
You could pray for the low end disciples like me

At last these 'gaddi' remarks will be way over now

777


777 you say,

"Happy to see so see a lady gurmukh of my age
Sister, . . you are not alone"

Thank You! I mean that even if you are being a little bit sarcastic!

I was being a bit mean. So... much love to you brother and everyone here on this blog.

Happy inner journeys for us all :)

And some sweet sound as much as possible

I all the time think about
the One line ( 2 or 3 ) at the start of every Charan speech

Everybody wants happiness - Why are people unhappy
Because they are attached to temporal things
Just Buy a Ferrari

Bless You ( if u like :-)

777


For being more clear and on Jim' s sarco

Never have any arousal there - not low

The Sound is swelling - not louder - swelling is a better word - or more explicit

See the Masters as always - they smile - Also in the eyes of the girls -
Sound starts like douching on some of them
Yes - Our words become 'manifest'-er - like faster but is not
It is like Darshan from Charan - without the slightest energy required - you flif to the crane
It s like automatic meditation
When young I had something like that but different
I still have
Like you see persons and they laugh or busy but I see that they cry !
Even on TV : I see a lie - with politicians so often

In this case Sound starts douching on them - like when U pray for somebody
They need so much -
Yes underwhile : appreciating enormously their bodies - quelle beauté
I cry

That's what I forgot and much more
Master so amused
No single sexual gratification - no thoughts about that
Must think about Jim and his frozen orthodoxy
If he knew . . . how to judge . . . Better not Jim . . . It harms you

777


-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XniJE5d6LA&feature=share

just a song

777

Dear Spence – In regards your last response from our last discussion re. Chand, that was a very kind & generous response, thank you very much!

Hi Jim – Yes, I’ve noticed you mention Jurgen Ziewe a few times! I read his book some 10 odd years ago...I thought I had mentioned his book & my impressions of it on the RSS forum at the time, but doing a quick search I cannot find any mention of it until around 2015, when I believe I simply stated I had “mentioned this book years ago....” or some such. I must have imagined writing about it or posted it to another forum which I’ve now forgotten (very possible)! If I am being entirely honest, I find there is a vanishingly small audience of peers that I personally would be interested to discuss “OBEs” or “astral projection” with, despite it being something I have been utterly fascinated with since I was aged about 10, have read every western book written on the subject (pre-2005ish, say), had countless experiences with etc. If I am being frank, I simply haven’t had the opportunity to discuss this with a forum/audience/person that I personally feel has enough depth & breadth of experience with the deeper levels of “astral projection”, “OBE”, “visionary experience” etc, to even begin to understand my own experiences, let alone teach me something new I don’t know, guide me, offer insights etc. I suppose I have to state here my truth; I have found RS initiates *especially* to be paddling in the shallow end of the pool, and thinking it’s an ocean. This is, to me, a staggering realisation! So many lofty, exclusive claims have been made about the RS practice, it has come as somewhat of a surprise to me as an adult, that RS followers have consistently been amongst the least well “inner travelled” people I have ever encountered in these circles, as well as, without any doubt, the most elitist & delusional about the uniqueness, specialness etc of their own experiences! I have not been remotely “impressed” or intrigued by the recollections of any initiate’s recollection of inner experiences whatsoever, ever! The very, very best of them, I have found, are preliminary inner experiences, all revolving around the imagined individualised “self” (or “soul” etc). Soamji’s descriptions of Anami, I find, somewhat approach the deeper experiences I’ve personally had, yet still I find his interpretation of them lacking in sophistication and insight, and deeply, deeply mired in baseless, unexamined dualistic dogma and ideology. Outside of RS, persons such as Ziewe or Campbell, I guess, are the closest I’ve felt there is to “peers”, although there are still differences in our experiences (astral projection is not even a remotely accurate word to describe the nature of the self, identity, vision, reality etc that is experienced/encountered during deeper levels!). Basically, I keep my experiences, insights and thoughts about such phenomena to myself, as I don’t think they are understandable to the vast majority of people. For example, the possibility that the concept of inner experiences of “past lives” are literally “true” (inner, visionary experiences tied to an illusory idea or concept of an individualised “self”, progressing sequentially and linearly through time etc) is completely obliterated as utterly absurd during even the middle-range of profound “Inner experiences” (as I’ve tried to express numerous times, yet failed as it is clear people are unable to even intellectually conceive of what I’m saying, let alone have personal, direct experience of it!), let alone the even deeper levels where it is completely impossible for such ego-centred illusions to gain any kind of foothold on reality! Again, the visionary experience of a “past life” is, in my experience, a very basic and deeply misleading experience (of which I’ve had countless & of numerous types......as a child, pre 20s). It is the paddling pool of inner experiences whereas reality is a vast ocean, completely incomparable really. But, to each their own, your mileage may vary, etc etc. Anyway, that’s me. As I say, to each their own, most of us require a comforting narrative, even if it has no basis in actual, deepest reality.
I was really posting about your most recent comment, where there is the suggestion you will not be posting here anymore due to the responses you’ve received to your recollection of events with Gurinder at Beas. I just wanted to say that is a shame, but before I do that, a quick caveat; Whilst I entirely disagree with a whole host of your beliefs and conceptualisations, and occasionally am concerned by some of your perspectives, such as around the “issue” (is it an issue at all, really?) of Jewish posters for eg., I think more generally you are a very decent & sincere person, with an interesting history and life story! I think it would be a shame for you to feel in any way “hounded” off this or any other forum by over-zealous and dogmatically inclined followers of any guru or religion, especially followers of a guru/group you yourself have personally followed for years, been initiated into and praised on online forums for decades! That is, truly, a shame. More is revealed by those who have the courage, honesty & sincerity to think for themselves & change their minds (over periods of years), not shut down their own minds in blind and mindless obedience. I hope you reconsider posting again!

I think your experience, specifically in context of your posting on this forum before you went to Beas and then upon returning, and all the comments you’ve received from the mindless RSSB followers both pre and post your experience, has been incredibly revealing of the human condition, faith, belief etc in general – but possibly insights outside of the scope of the current conceptual models of most people reading here (ie., “does not compute; ignore” etc).

As a somewhat detached, “objective” (although that is an ultimately absurd and illusory concept, usually held by those of the scientific belief-set – scientism - for example, as there is absolutely no such thing as “objective” without a subject anywhere in creation/existence) person whose only interest is the “truth”, nature of reality, the human condition etc (and I can appreciate <0.1% of readers here would agree with me! But these are undeniable aspects of my reality & “path” to me personally), I have found your experience a great “teaching tale”, albeit an entirey predictable one!

Before you left for Beas, I note there were numerous RSSB followers here who confidently, “knowingly”, with a wink, suggested not only you would find joy, truth etc, but also sceptics like Brian would if only they'd go too.....I mean, after all, such is the magical power & grace of the “Master”, with over-flowing & powerful capabilities of convincing, converting even the most sceptical persons. How can anyone resist the power & light of God’s only representative in the entire tri-loka?

Yet, when you returned with your deep scepticism (bravo on staying true to yourself & your values and not disengaging your own mind like some sort of mindless automaton! It speaks volumes about you as a person), suddenly all the blame was yours and yours alone! The alleged unfathomable grace & power of this Marvelous Godman was swept away by the feeble & insignificant power of your intellect & mind! This is an intriguing state of affairs, a strange conception..... one could say almost incoherent, like the ramblings of mindless believers & followers, vacuous noise containing no reality or substance at all, wishy washy “just so” stories that change just as easily & frequently as the British weather.....

This is how mindless adherence to religious dogma and authority operates. It is, or at least should be, extremely clear there are followers of cults, religions, gurus etc for which there literally is no action, behaviour or revelation of any sort that would disprove their beliefs. In science, if a theory is not falsifiable, then it is worthless. A question for those with a penchant for mindless “following” is, is there anything, anything at all, that could falsify your beliefs?

As somebody who has deeply researched the origins of beliefs, specifically the numerous influences on modern RS doctrine and dogma, it is extremely clear to me the archetype of the “Satguru” is meant to demonstrate & indeed literally personify several mythical energies/archetypes, two basic fundamentals of which are – historically speaking – an absolute rejection & antithesis of lust and monetary wealth; Dayal (grace, mercy etc) and naam are contra-energies to maya (illusion, worldly wealth etc) and kaam (lust).

It seems our current personification of these primal mythical currents is, errrm, completely contradictory to their actual essence. A semi-billionaire who simply cannot stop making inappropriate (to his stated mythical position and purpose) sexualised comments during satsangs & Q&As and has a penchant for imposing structure/building (again, the anti-thesis of the "liminality" - completely without structure - which is the hallmark of all true mystics & shamans throughout history) !!

A simplistic – yet mindless, I might add – rebuttal to these is obvious; A dangerous and singular anecdote, almost certainly untrue, told about Kabir and his pretending to consort with prostitutes to test his disciples' faith. Yes, in this way any abuse or inappropriate danger is readily excused and ignored, even if there is no proof or indication the rationalisation-away is accurate or true in any sense; it is simply the default & utterly unquestioned position to excuse the guru of any possible faults or flaws or mundane humanity! (numerous RSSBers have suggested Gurinder's "69" comments were hidden, mystical messages from Gugu to you or the other, confused fellow. Yet, as I recounted over at the RSS forum a few weeks before you posted your experience, these sexualised/flirting "messages" from Gurinder are a recurrent theme throughout his entire tenure as guru, suggesting these thoughts are actually reflective of his state of mind, rather than targeted "messages/teachings" to select individuals. Though of course it can be suggested plausibly, though barely so, that this is a general "teaching tool" of his, unique amongst all "Satgurus" of the "Dayal" current....Osho and his system, for eg., Gurinder is not!)

The 2nd excuse, this time for our modern gurus excessive & obscene wealth – never once before witnessed in the entire history of “Satgurus” who personify the “Dayal” current of “Divine Grace” (the anti-thesis of worldly wealth and desires) – is the anecdote of Raja Janak. Nobody questions why, out of the thousands of “Satgurus” in the mystic “Dayal” current – it is actually a fictional, vedantic disciple who was never a “Satguru” who is the only example of such a person? It is simple – because real “Satgurus” of the “Dayal” current simply have never been, or will ever be, so obscenely rich, or even mildly rich – it is the anti-thesis of their energy. That is why there are thousands of examples of poor “Satgurus”, and only one mythic example of a vedantic mystic who wasn’t even a “Satguru” that was even mildly well off!!

On a personal level, I don't follow or believe in any of these conceptual models I am discussing - whilst there is great truths within the Dayal/Kal, God above God/Demiurge cosmologies, things which encompass many aspects of our human reality, I believe - based on experience - that even they are limited in scope and encompassed within a greater reality that is not touched by such dualisims. I am merely stating the obvious in that Gurinder, whilst a guru (due to family inheritance) in a Dayal/Kal cosmology, he appears to have all the qualities more associated with "kal" and never associated with Dayal's Satgurus. Rationalise - or not comprehend that - to your your discretion....

Anyway Jim, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing from your heart, it took great courage to do so, and I have found it fascinating & revealing in it's own way. I don't know if you will ever choose to post here again, I certainly hope you do, but regardless, thanks & all the best on your journey brother!

Manjit

Great post, Manjit, lots to unpack there. On the topic of Jurgen, I wonder if those readers also familiar with the Sant Mat cosmology saw a parallel in his account. Where he details his furthest and highest experiences in the first book?

He basically enters a massive structure with exits leading out to heavenly universes, and is told by an unseen Master that he is right to want to go further than these exits. Personally I would have stayed put, so fail!

At which point Jurgen moves on and gets involved with 'waves' from an ocean of purifying bliss etc. But so intense that he can't merge into it.

Because in Sant Mat, the top of Trikuti is supposed to be a 'fort' with 9 out of 10 exits going laterally, and 1 exit leading 'up' to a lake of purification, Mansarovar?

Boy o boy.
That's some serious explanation.
An exaggeration on the top of others' state of mind and experiences.
Love is missing, Ego is winning, over and over again, and yet again.

In actuality, nothing more than a pre-primary kid trying to explain how a professor should teach.
Other kids gives a nod,
Professor is smiling behind the curtains.

Hi One Initiated

To magnify on your point, Manjit wrote earlier

"On a personal level, I don't follow or believe in any of these conceptual models I am discussing"

I find Manjit 's comment hilarious and spot on for most of the posters here.

And Spencer,

If we remove the clutter:
"I don't follow but I am still discussing"
which is: I am contradicting myself, I am cheating myself.

It's like trying to do 69 without a partner,
he will never succeed, I bet 😉

Hi One Initiated

Yes agreed.
Why spend any time discussing what we don't believe?

I find his remark, and your decoding of it, comedic.

Like

I'm so glad , i don't like apples

because if I liked them, . . I might eat them

and that would be horrible because I don't like them at all

77

meditation :

At best the Sound_Combi goes UP to indescribable levels
and the doer knows He is THAT SONG and always was and will be
and that he created / is creating the Universe

You see that no single correction is needed
Each Soul receives the utmost of what She can take

777


Hi Peter, thanks for your comment! I wonder if you’d care to share what your history, experience and interest with these subjects is?

You write: “He (Ziewe) basically enters a massive structure with exits leading out to heavenly universes, and is told by an unseen Master that he is right to want to go further than these exits. Personally I would have stayed put, so fail!”

&

“Because in Sant Mat, the top of Trikuti is supposed to be a 'fort' with 9 out of 10 exits going laterally, and 1 exit leading 'up' to a lake of purification, Mansarovar?”

Thanks for mentioning the quote.....I can’t actually recall much of Ziewe’s book as it’s been a while, I really should go back and re-read it actually!

Your point/question is a truly fascinating one, as it opens up a whole Pandora’s box of further questions & implications. I’ll address two that come immediately to mind, and they are somewhat connected in essence.

Firstly, it seems you’re describing “daswan dwar”, literally translated as “10th door”? This term, in itself, is quite fascinating & revealing when taken from the RS “Sant Mat” theology. In Radhasoami teachings, “daswan dwar”, or the lake of “mansarovar”, “trikuti” etc, are placed at the “3rd region”. In RS cosmology, the first region, Sahansdal Kanwal, is considered to be above the body/head, which suggests this “10th Door” of Radhasoami mat is considerably above the body and “3rd eye”, or “tisra til”.

However, this term “daswan dwar” has a long history, and very obvious bodily connotations which contradict this attempt to conceptually elevate Radhasoami mat and cosmology above all others, even those it is a direct descendant of (tantra, kundalini yoga etc). The Buddhist “Siddhas” mention this “daswan dwar”, as do the hindu tantrics, as the secret hidden opening WITHIN the body.....obviously so, as the 9 other gates are the standard 9 openings of the human body, it only stands to make sense this “10th gate” is within the body, not vast & unimaginable regions above it!! This is a perfect example of how Radhasoami mat has taken millennia old teachings & terms, then shuffled them about, cosmologically speaking, simply to make RS doctrine elitist.

It is worth noting that in the Sikh holy book, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, several times the Sikh gurus make it clear the “daswan dwar” is IN the body. The RS cosmology that places it above Sahansdal Kanwal, and therefore way, way above the tisra till – it’s not even in the body! – is clearly lacking any integrity and is deeply muddled.

The second point your comment raised, is far more complicated. It is the nature of our visionary experiences and how they relate to subtle ideas, conceptions, beliefs, intentions etc we already hold. I’m at work on lunch and running out of time to do this subject justice, but I’ll give it a quick shot! What I’m getting at is, is how the nature, dynamic, content, form, symbology etc of our inner experiences.....and I mean this as fundamentally & radically so, not just the mere appearances, but the very core of the experiences themselves, their structure & directionality, is deeply guided by our own minds, perhaps our subconscious minds as conscious awareness doesn’t really even matter. I don’t mean to imply it is all “made up”, but rather that our minds colour all our perceptions of “reality”.

I’m running out of time and not really explaining myself well! What I mean is, I totally understand what you way was Ziewe’s experience, it makes full sense and reminds me of numerous experiences I’ve had myself. However, I’ve had so many diverse & completely unclassifiable experiences across vast scopes that you get to the point that you realise it’s utterly preposterous to even attempt to structure, classify, make sense of logically in some sort of cosmology etc (these are all flights of dualistic fancy the rational ego clings to) thse experience......they’re not showing you “reality out there”, but rather the astonishingly & awe inspiringly infinite, flexible nature of your own mind/being/soul/consciousness, that it is truly limitless & without any boundaries whatsoever!

Honestly, you could write dozens of very long & complex books just expanding on this paragraph above, I’m really not even beginning to open up the point, but I don’t have time!

Cheers Peter!

Hi One Initiated / Spence / 777 – thanks for your comments, they are genuinely wonderful! The toothless and desperate air around them speaks volumes!

:o)

Manjit

Volumes of shit probably.

A sanity correction:
The incident where the Master tested HIS disciples' faith,
by climbing up to the prostitute's room belongs to Shah Inayat Ji (the Master of Bulleshah Ji).

It's very easy to abuse HIM.
putting bad words for HIM.

Time to show some kindness on our own
and seal the mouth for betterment of our own.

When you will, it must be realised upon:
that It'd be much much better
to put a stray dog's shit in our mouth and seal it;
instead of putting bad words for HIM.

The more we laugh, the more we will be laughed upon.

Hope you receive and taste the shit soon,
also get amazed to instead feel & realise the elixir.

Shit happens; Elixir too.
Will happen with me; and so with you.

Uncountable goosebumps and extremely high wavelengths of breath
all in HIS (Gruinder Singh Ji Maharaj's) constant remembrance and love.

Hi One Initiated!

You wrote, in amongst other garbled stuff: "Hope you receive and taste the shit soon"

Hehehe... :oD You are truly priceless, thanks for the laughs!

You also wrote: "A sanity correction:
The incident where the Master tested HIS disciples' faith,
by climbing up to the prostitute's room belongs to Shah Inayat Ji (the Master of Bulleshah Ji)."

Ah, that's the thing, I've read and heard so many thousands of stories & quotes from so many thousands of mystics in so many iterations that by the time I was in my late teens, I could probably recollect & recount them in my sleep without even paying attention! You may be referencing some story (almost certainly, I suspect, because you bear all the hallmarks of somebody whose only source of information is official RSSB literature......I suspect the story you mention is in the "tales from the mystic east" publication and/or in one of the books which contain Sawan's satsangs? That rings a bell, but I haven't read those books in 20 odd years). However, the anecdote, apocryphal tale I reference is the one at this link, for example:

https://www.jagatgururampalji.org/way-of-living/40-test-of-disciples-by-god-kabir/

"Even after repeated advice of God Kabir Ji, the devotees kept forbidding that girl from coming to Satsang, and used to give excuse that – “Because of you, Guru ji has become defamed in Kashi. The people of Kashi repeatedly say to us that – “Even a prostitute visits your Guru Ji. What sort of a Guru he is.”"

And that's the point - the huge, elephant sized point that you transparently evade - that these apocryphal tales (it doesn't even matter who the guru is, they very often change around anyway and there is almost always no actual source of basis for the stories in actual reality!) contain very simple morals, perhaps morals that contain some truth, but they are also used by to justify abuses & unscrupulous behaviour. It is left to the sagacity of each individual to discern the validity of using an apocryphal tale like this to justify years of Gurinder's sexualised comments & flirting with women during Q&As......

As to your previous comment: "n actuality, nothing more than a pre-primary kid trying to explain how a professor should teach.
Other kids gives a nod,
Professor is smiling behind the curtains."

Be careful, that is a more appropriate metaphor than you may realise. It didn't end so well the last time some guy claiming to be all powerful and magical hid behind a curtain, smirking at kids......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubIpoPjBUds

I think this sums up both your posts, and your thinly veiled threats, quite nicely :o)

Cheers!

Manjit cool writings. But may i ask you. Do you suggest one should leave meditation and path under Gurinder? I once read that you said you miss dream control and inner smells in rs meditation. I have both. And traveling inner worlds and fighting entities and so on . and i know inner traveling is different than mere descriptions in the books. I hope you can say something on this theme and do you tottaly ban rs under Gurinder..btw i had only great experiences with him.peace

Right...I tried posting this 3 times the other day, but nothing appeared! One last time - it still didn't appear! I will change my name & email add. to see if that makes a difference......I would leave it, but Moon / X has asked a question I feel I should answer, but I won't bother typing one up it won't get posted.....so, one final time:

Hi One Initiated!

You wrote, in amongst some other ramblings: "Hope you receive and taste the shit soon"

Hehehe... :oD You are truly priceless, thanks for the laughs brother!

You also wrote: "A sanity correction:
The incident where the Master tested HIS disciples' faith,
by climbing up to the prostitute's room belongs to Shah Inayat Ji (the Master of Bulleshah Ji)."

A "sanity correction"? In amongst all the numerous & important issues I raise, THIS is the point you feel most

pertinently addresses & impacts the "sanity" of readers? Hmm, an "interesting", if somewhat Freudian, take....You know your point has hit home, and hit home hard, when the only critical response from those who are highly emotionally invested is to focus in on the minute, pedantic and completely irrelevant, and even elevate that inconsequence to "sanity correction"....

Ah, that's the thing, I've read and heard so many thousands of stories & quotes from so many thousands of mystics

in so many iterations that by the time I was in my late teens, I could probably recollect & recount them in my

sleep without even paying attention......and I certainly am not, and have no need to, pay attention discussing these things with you as it's hardly profound, thought-provoking wisdom & insight you're getting at! You may be referencing some story (almost certainly, I suspect, because you bear all the hallmarks of somebody whose only source of information is official RSSB literature......I suspect the story you mention is in the "tales from the mystic east" publication and/or in one of the books which contain Sawan's satsangs? That rings a bell, but I haven't read those books in 20 odd years). However, the anecdote, the apocryphal tale, that I referenced is the one at this link, for example:

https://www.jagatgururampalji.org/way-of-living/40-test-of-disciples-by-god-kabir/

"Even after repeated advice of God Kabir Ji, the devotees kept forbidding that girl from coming to Satsang, and

used to give excuse that – “Because of you, Guru ji has become defamed in Kashi. The people of Kashi repeatedly say

to us that – “Even a prostitute visits your Guru Ji. What sort of a Guru he is.”"

And that's the point - the huge, elephant sized point that you deafeningly evade - that these apocryphal tales (it

doesn't even matter who the guru is, they very often change around anyway and there is almost always no actual

source of basis for the stories in actual reality!) contain very simple morals, perhaps morals that contain some

truth, but they are also used by to justify abuses & unscrupulous behaviour. It is left to the sagacity of each

individual to discern the validity of using an apocryphal tale like this to justify years of Gurinder's sexualised

comments & flirting with women during Q&As......

As to your previous comment: "in actuality, nothing more than a pre-primary kid trying to explain how a professor

should teach.
Other kids gives a nod,
Professor is smiling behind the curtains."

Be careful, that is a more appropriate metaphor than you may realise. It didn't end so well the last time some guy

claiming to be all powerful and magical hid behind a curtain, smirking at kids......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubIpoPjBUds

I think this sums up both your posts, and your thinly veiled threats, quite nicely :o)

Cheers!

Manjit you have my email

Cheers your ...
there is no reason for me to cheers with you right now.
I hope there will be soon.

The best thing we can laugh on today is ourself.

You didn't raise any issue,
you are just being tricked by your mind.
To blame and using the bad words for the Masters.

Each and every line you posted till date is a waste of time,
for anyone in the world to read.
Because the stand you are on right now, is about abusing the Masters.

You more or less consider yourself a master unknowingly,
based on your inner experiences,
you have fallen into the pit of ego, and covered it with guilt,
and you portray yourself as all knowing of others' experiences,
and also to the extent that you do know b/w Dayal and Kal masters.
which is again a fine trick of the mind.
If you retrospect (if you can).
you will find yourself as being trapped by Kal big time.
I hope you will realise it sooner once you open up yourself.

I would not want to scare you,
because I would not want you to taste the shit,
because I don't want to taste the shit,
because there is no difference between you and me.
But, if it has to happen, it will happen,
because you are making it happen right now.

That's all about the perspective Manjit.
And perspective is it which will change you,
only when you change it.

Hi One Initiated.

I have noticed several mental health issues among the posters here. Have you?

That perfect and infinite ego that cannot tolerate any feedback or variation of opinion without having to make personal insults reflects a very damaged, isolated and vulnerable personality.

And yet to find this to one degree or other is not uncommon, and we share feelings of empathy with such folks.

Do not mind their lengthy monologues. They are working out something within themselves. And who, really, isn't?

So I say "Well done Manjit. Proceed forth!"

Hi Spencer,

I agree with you, I do have... on purpose though.

I also agree in the universal fact that
By insulting anyone, I am insulting myself.
And that is true for everyone.

Until THE day, what else a manhu being deserves though ?

In ALL of this , listen to Buddha"s main "sin"
TO CHANGE OUR OWN CONSCIOUSNESS AND NEXT BELIEVE IT"

Like GuruGranth JapJi says :
How then to be true , How to rendthe veil of shame Untruth ?.
The Answer on the next line :
Please follow what's ingrained in us , . . our consciousness ( Le petit voix )

It should be followed by any cannibal before each meal
(last time I mentioned each Auschwitz kapo)

Ask ourself if it's really true what I write, . . do I really believe that
Is no ego forcing us to . . . .
further
Is it necessery ?
Is it nice ?

777

btw : I believe when it happened the modifications
my lines will not change a thing
only correct RSSB MEDITATION can

which brings Buddha's remark to Charan's remark about
a sin against the Holy Ghost
How could it ever be forgiven

Please make a list of our opinions and if we really believe them ? Jim?

Hi X! Thanks for your message, and your emails have been received! Your message is noted & don't worry, I totally understand and you can certainly trust me in the confidentiality sense, I would like to think! You could even call me and my family the worst insults, berate me, criticise, even betray my own confidence - you know my surname - and I would like to think I would still maintain my own sense of honour and confidentiality, though sometimes perhaps people have a different idea of how that works. So, moving on....:)

You ask an extremely important question; "Do you suggest one should leave meditation and path under Gurinder?" This deserves a proper, thoughtful answer, and I will attempt to do so. But first, your other query:

You asked: "I once read that you said you miss dream control and inner smells in rs meditation. I have both. And traveling inner worlds and fighting entities and so on . and i know inner traveling is different than mere descriptions in the books. I hope you can say something on this theme"

I am not sure what you mean here by "miss dream control"? I have mentioned that I have no interest or desire, on a fundamental level, for dualistic or visionary experiences. Hence, if I find myself in a lucid dream spontaneously, for example, it immediately, within a split-second, resolves itself into undifferentiated "clear light". This is in essence, the polar opposite to "missing it"....it is a complete, fundamental, and beyond self-delusion (as you cannot hide your desires in the "astral") lack of desire for these dualistic states and experiences. It is a leap into the "beyond" that cannot be discussed or described. But, as I have mentioned in this thread before, I have no real interest in trying to explain the subtleties of such things as they are fundamentally beyond the comprehension of most people. In a world where people are desperately trying to acheive "soul travel", "inner ascent", "travel through the spiritual realms" etc, I am saying if I spontaneously find myself in such a state, it immediately dissolves because I have no interest or desire in what these. Further, should I consciously wish to enter such states, within a few weeks I could be spending several hours a day in these states. It is nigh on impossible to explain which kind of state renders these states utterly uniteresting, and therefore I do not discuss it......can you on any level of your being comprehend what it is like to enter a dimension of hyper-reality, more "real" than most peoples experience of normal physical reality, intense and over-whelming ecstasy, unlimited and infinite potential to do or experience things in ways that are incomprehensible to the human mind, and to think to oneself "Oh, okay, been here, done this, next!"? Because if you can't, then it is impossible to express that state of being which lies beyond. Realisation or reality is not chasing after these rarified states, divorced from the "mundanity" of here and now, what lies directly in front of us in even the most mundane of situations. Realisation is not escapism or chasing ecstatic states or heavenly realms where nectar pours upon us eternally....."realisation" is an understanding or experience on an entirely different level of being which cannot be expressed.

I'm at work now and typing this up as I get a chance, so am losing the "flow" of things.....that said, I will come back to the main point I wished to address, your question "Do you suggest one should leave meditation and path under Gurinder?", either this evening if I get the chance, or over the weekend with a more comprehensive response to do the complexity of the question justice......cheers my friend! :o)


Dear One Initiated, you wrote "I would not want to scare you".

Don't worry, you are doing nothing but amusing me deeply!! :)

As I mentioned last time, a year or two ago, you made thinly veiled threats towards me when you didn't like my comments about RSSB, you and your cultic beliefs are going to have to get into line when it comes to sending Divine Wrath my way, I've heard the same from Christians, Muslims and assorted others. This kind of utterly delusional and absurd beliefs and threats do absolutely nothing but embolden me. My brother, your worldly "God man" doesn't scare or threaten me remotely, he is, I'm afraid to say, impotent to me because I do not project my own inner power upon him, as do his cultic adherents. How long will I have to wait for this delightful shit of divine retribution from your "loving" god? You said similar a year or two ago....how long do I have to wait, I have things to do? Can we say if I don't taste this shit by tomorrow, that your guru is powerless? I'm laying down a direct challenge to you and your imagined God man? Do you have anything other than delusional, vindictive beliefs and threats, hollow words born from a threatened ego? No, didn't think so! :)


Hi Spence - incredible, thank you very much for revealing you true mentality. It must get tiring, after all, living through such insincerity and pretence, pretending to be this or that!

So, in response to my replies to Jim & Peter, you & One Initiated completely and utterly avoided all the substance, specific issues etc in my posts, and simply resorted to transparent emotional, ad hominem and completely irrelevant comments about my person.

One Initiated then proceeds to say that I will "eat shit" and eat it "soon".

And your response, seemingly supporting his position, is to say: "I have noticed several mental health issues among the posters here. Have you?" & "That perfect and infinite ego that cannot tolerate any feedback or variation of opinion without having to make personal insults reflects a very damaged, isolated and vulnerable personality."

Wow, you have reached extra-ordinaire levels of projection & transference, a real "go to" mechanism of the bruised and fearful ego! You should be made aware that this is or should be, in this instance, exceptionaly clear & obvious to any semi-conscious and semi-impartial person.

This is an excellent example of the vacuity, pretence & lack of substance of cultic beliefs and behaviour.

As per your last comment to me, I paraphrase: "Well done Spence. Proceed forth!"

Cheers! :o)

Thank you Manjit

Your comments as usual are thoughtful.

It is not necessary that we agree on everything, but are you in a safe and peaceful location?

Do you have people there you can talk to about these things?

Quote Manjit.....
I would like to think! You could even call me and my family the worst insults, berate me, criticise, even betray my own confidence - you know my surname - and I would like to think I would still maintain my own sense of honour and confidentiality, though sometimes perhaps people have a different idea of how that works. So, moving on....:)
moon...yes but when but if someone was beaten like shit thrust me my friend mind starts to act differently...

....Manjit by missing control in a dream i did not think you dont have control but that you said as i remember that you miss that rs meditation technique is missing inner smells and control over dream.....
......
Manjit did you come to inner wall where one realises that he is small vs the eternity or how may i call it and that one realises that part is of everything and everything is of part?

Hi Spence/r, thanks for your response.

You ask: "but are you in a safe and peaceful location?"

Yes, I am always in a "safe and peaceful" location, wherever I am or whatever I'm doing. Some will understand what that means.

You ask "Do you have people there you can talk to about these things?".

No, not really! That's part of the true delight and deliciousness of these subjects though, I have found.....unless you reach a place where there is nobody you can talk to about "these things", you really haven't achieved anything except the mundane & everyday.

Those questions answered - I like easy questions - I must add, they are quite strange & pretty much non sequitur.

Take care,

Manjit

Quote Manjit
No, not really! That's part of the true delight and deliciousness of these subjects though, I have found.....unless you reach a place where there is nobody you can talk to about "these things", you really haven't achieved anything except the mundane & everyday.

....haha exactly this happened to me i thought i was weird...ah maybe i am...but i like it

So here is the Manjit,
not sounding that smart.

I just saw the youtube nonsense,
had in his bookmarks ?
or searched to make it look like amused ?

still maintains he raised some real issues !

Kal must be amused right now.
his dancers are performing at par.

Manjit IS smart and genuine.

Thank you Manjit

You wrote

"Those questions answered - I like easy questions - I must add, they are quite strange & pretty much non sequitur."

I just wanted to put all the rest aside and ask how you were.

moon, how would that be genuine ?

if one claims to be in Astral,
and tells the world about Masters who is and who isn't in SachKhand ?
do you find that even logical ?

that's actually non-sensical,
also extremely misleading for other readers,
specially those who finds him smart.

Dear One Initiated - Fair enough and thanks! And, please do understand one thing, I would gladly eat shit for you if I thought it would grant you eternal peace....I wish you nothing but peace and happiness on your path, and as I've already eaten plenty of shit already, it would be like water of a duck's back :)

Dear Spence - Okay, thanks for asking!

Dear X - You asked a very important question, one which I don't personally particularly have any interest in discussing, but I feel it would be poor of me not to address. You asked: " "Do you suggest one should leave meditation and path under Gurinder?".

Wow, what an incredibly complex question! I would like to think that my 20 years of posts here and RSS forum give at least some hints at what the "intention" behind my posts are? Though as that can get lost in amongst "noise", and filtered through the biases and beliefs of any readers, I will attempt to summarise again here in 3 main approaches to your question; a) my personal motivation, b) specifically about RSSB as a viable spiritual path, and c) a more universal view of reality and "paths".

First of all, it is not only not my intention to tell people how to think or what to do - to proscribe - it is the anti-thesis of what I'm getting at.

I am merely sharing my own experiences and understanding, items of information, alternative ways of looking at things, speculation etc, hopefully in order to encourage others to ponder these things for themselves and to come to their own conclusions. Why do I do this? Because I feel it is something of a "payback" to all those dear others out there who have shared their experiences and understandings, and encouraged me to think for myself and come to my own direct understandings! Due to how, errrm, personally disinterested I am in this and how it feels more like a "duty" than a pleasure, I don't write books, have blogs, pretend to be a teacher (opportunities abound, I have no interest, believe it or not! :) etc. I merely come online every now and then, on obscure forums and blogs way down deep in the comments section, and share what I feel moved to share. Let the universe do it what it wills with that, it is not my problem, I've done my duty. Personally, I hope it gets lost and forgotten....:)

On my specific views about RSSB and Gurinder? Phew, well! Okay, first of all let me say that for around 10 years after losing my deep devotion for Gurinder and RSSB, completely leaving them, being critical of them etc, I still retained a great, great deal of pride, respect and admiration for Gurinder and the organisation. On many, many levels, I still do. Personally (on a human level), I like Gurinder (from what I know of him). But I do like all sorts of people :).

However, over more recent years, there has been some news coming out of the organisation that I personally find worrying and contra-indicative of what the "Satguru" concept as I understood it, and fell in love with, is. The obscene wealth alone is staggering, how it was accumulated does not help matters. This new trend of buying and building properties all over the world, even in amongst communities that do not want them......going so far as to go to court to claim their "religious" rights, whilst telling their followers they are not a religion? People dying on their property - I spent many, many hundreds of hours doing seva at Haynes Park and done patently dangerous things myself - and not being fully transparent and helpful with the authorities?

Not great.

Also, I have to say, Charan's vile, judgemental and ignorant comments about homosexuality, published in official RSSB literature, I have to say I find to be a absolute nail in the coffin of the myth these "Godmen" are perfect, wise, all-knowing and infinitely compassionate human beings. Charan is, without doubt, one of the most beautiful and radiant gurus of recent time, but statements like this should remind us they too are prone to error, ignorance, hurtful behaviour and beliefs.

Now, I can understand many of the people reading this will actually find nothing inherently wrong in Charan's comments - as most RS satsangis tend to be from an older generation (today's genration are generally not interested in RS as a viable "spiritual path" I find, unless they have been born into an RS family, which is standard religiosity/culture....you maybe somewhat of an exception! :) - but I feel today people would see right through the judgemental ignorance - and laugh hysterically at the idea (or weep, to be honest, like I wanted to when I read it as an adult.....as a believer, I must just have ignored it!) this is a literal personification of "grace" in a world of judgement. Personally, I would like to think any loving, compassionate, non-judgemental person, from any era, would think the same.

Of course, it can be speculated, like both Chris (MBW) & Jim insinuated (:o) that my extreme disappointment in Charan's statement is because I myself an homosexual. Well, I can honestly state that my sexuality is 100% "straight" and that I've never been sexually attracted to another male in my life (alas, more options! :). Fair enough, have at it, I have no interest in defending myself from such silliness. It merely saddens me further that one can be so wrapped up in cultural judgements and sexual hang-ups that one cannot even conceive one would find Charan's comments deeply offensive if one wasn't homosexual themself (like we cannot be offended by racism if you're not the race in question, genocide if you're not the ones being slaughtered etc).

All that said, yeah, actually they're not a bad lot....there's certainly worse out there! :o) Many beautiful experiences can be had following such "paths".

But, more importantly I feel, the 3rd approach to your question, the "general".

I wrote a long, rambling post a while back about what I perceive reality to be; a dance of one consciousness. I also wrote that the guru/disciple dynamic is merely one small facet of this reality of consciousness, an exquisite dance with a beautiful partner.... but it's not what you'll go home with at the end of the night :o)

It is your own sincerity, love and desire that will manifest your results, your reality. I fully believe we are all exactly where we're meant to be, experiencing what we're meant to experience, everything is ultimately perfect and a manifestation of it's own desire.

One can find "God", "Self", "Peace" etc in the mosque, the church, the Rajinder satsang, the Gurinder satsang, the ayahuasca retreat, at the death of a loved one, in an NDE, in a dream, in a car accident......anywhere and everywhere, there are no limits and no rules. How dare our minds impose them!

And, ultimately - and this is most important - there is no "punishment", no "chaurasi", nothing to fear....these are all narratives of the ego, the very concepts, the very fear that keeps us trapped in duality, conceptuality, limitation and bondage. We have underestimated the timeless, the compassionate, the "One", the "Divine Love" and started to believe in the fearful narratives of ego.

Ahh, isn't it all such a delightfully paradox. What compelled all these mystics of yore to speak of such things as "reincarnation", "chaurasi", hells etc? On the one hand Buddha tells us of samsara, rebirth (NOT reincarnation, HUGE difference!), the four noble truths and eight limbed path, and of course nirvana. But then he say in ultimate truth there is neither samsara or nirvana! (such as in mahayanic texts such as Diamond, Lotus sutras etc).

It's incredibly difficult to understand how cultural and conceptual overlay works. The experience itself is universal, the interpretation, representation and "theologisation" of this primal reality of "consciousness" is conditioned by so many factors, rare is it to see & understand whole breadths conceptual reality.....

This is now entering the domain of the nonsensical, so I would here post a passage from page 736 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. THIS is what I am discussing, without all the cultural and conceptual overlay that masks the essence of reality:

"The actor stages the play,
playing the many characters in different costumes;
but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,
and then he is one, and only one. ||1||

How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?
Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||

Countless waves rise up from the water.
Jewels and ornaments of many different forms are fashioned from gold.
I have seen seeds of all kinds being planted
- when the fruit ripens, the seeds appear in the same form as the original. ||2||

The one sky is reflected in thousands of water jugs,
but when the jugs are broken, only the sky remains.
Doubt comes from greed, emotional attachment and the corruption of Maya.
Freed from doubt, one realizes the One Lord alone. ||3||"

Hello, One Initiated. Long time!

Loved your 69 joke! Call me simple, call me tasteless -- but the imagery conjured by your words, of some poor soul attempting a 69 all by themselves, had me ROFLing away! :-)


… Which is not to take any sides in your ongoing theological disagreement with Manjit! This was just a without-subtext LOL at your joke, that’s all!

(Incidentally, that phrase, “theological disagreement”, that itself conjures up such a quaint picture, does it not? A nice quaint old-world feel to that concept. You’d almost expect excitable swordsmen, dressed ridiculously in plumed hats and tights, to jump up with their rapiers to “honorably” defend their views!)

(Of course, people do that all that time even now, don’t they? Here as much as anywhere else? Except the rapiers here are made up not of steel but of snark. :-) )

It’s all good fun, as long as people don’t take offense. Although arguably it’s even more fun when people do take offense! :-)

Hello, Manjit! Enjoyed reading your comments. As always, wonderfully thoughtful, wonderfully thought-inspiring.

Inveterate incorrigible question-asker that I am, I have a question to ask you. (I hope I don’t scare you off like I apparently did last time! It’s literally just one single question this time, and a fairly simple one at that!) :-)


.


This is a wholly practical question. It does not relate to the details of your experiences, but it does have to do with those experiences, absolutely.

If you could tell us, from your personal experience (as well as your personal insights) : How does someone with these very deep experiences and insights find themselves able to carry on with the motions of daily life : work, relationships, so forth?

This is not an idle question. At a personal level, this is something that often bothers me. Even at the far more mundane level that I myself inhabit (more mundane than yours, I mean, in terms of actual ‘experience’, and actual first-hand directly felt insight), I often find it an absolute chore to go through the motions of an otherwise interesting and satisfying and very rewarding career, and otherwise meaningful and cherished relationships.

You know what I mean? One has no wish to dress up in sack cloth and retire to some cave, and one appreciates good food (for instance) and physicality, as well as the occasional indulgence in luxury, just as much as the next man : but all the while, even at its best, it’s a bit like sitting perpetually in kindergarten class with overgrown kindergarteners, all the while having to force oneself to pretend that these infantile inanities -- that others seem to find so very absorbing -- carry the slightest meaning or actual importance.

No doubt you’ve heard of the concept of ‘Nishkam Karm’? The qualifier “Nishkam” I can understand and appreciate and empathize with, but it’s the noun “Karm” that that qualifier describes that I find difficult to wrap my head around, when it happens to be qualified by that particular adjective. Wouldn’t adding that qualifier to that noun result in the whole thing simply disappearing -- Poof, just like that! -- much like matter disappearing without a trace at the touch of anti-matter?

After all, it is desire that literally feeds action. In the absence of the former -- and this absence is not mere theory, it is closely felt and experienced first-hand by anyone who’s spent some time immersing themselves in thoughts and experiences of this nature -- how is the latter sustained? Sustained not for a day or two, but consistently?

Given your far deeper -- and far longer (in terms of duration) -- association with these ideas and experiences, I’d like to know your thoughts on this.

Over to you.


.


P.S. Although I’ve addressed this comment, thus far, to Manjit, and it is his views that I’m primarily asking for at this time, nevertheless anyone else who has themsleves had to wrestle with this issue and who’ve arrived at their own personal solution and/or insights around this, do please chime in if you’ve anything to say.

(Although I imagine if you’re someone who follows a very structured route to your ‘spiritualism’, then simply following on with the structure regardless of personal desire may end up as the obvious ‘solution’. Simply doing what the Guru has instructed, or that the Church has instructed, or that some scripture recommends -- I realize that that can be a perfectly acceptable and entirely effective solution for many. But that particular answer doesn’t work for me personally, and that particular answer is not what I’m looking for. But if you have any further nuance or insight to offer, please go ahead, I’m very interested in what you might have to say.)

Hey Appreciative Reader (can I call you AR for short?!) - good to hear from you, how's it going my friend? :o)

You ask of One Initiated: "not to take any sides in your ongoing theological disagreement with Manjit"

We were having a "theological disagreement", were we? Didn't feel like it from my perspective :)

You ask: "(I hope I don’t scare you off like I apparently did last time!"

Hey?! No, of course not!! You never scared me off last time? Have I forgotten something that happened?! I do have a terrible memory!


Re. your question - again, a rather terrific and yet difficult to answer. I'm at work now, and don't plan to be online tonight. That said, I promise to get back to you hopefully over this weekend, but say within 7 days at the latest. I hope that's okay!

Good hearing from you again! Take care & speak soon,

Manjit

Actually I'd ended our last set of interactions with a couple questions. [Although can I rightly say I'd ended it if I'd only laid the overture to further discussion by asking further questions? :-)] I imagined you'd tired of the Q&A, and did not like to push it after that.

But no matter, it's no big deal!

As for your views on this, now : Whenever convenient, Manjit. Absolutely no rush! A week, two weeks, whatever works for you. I'll bookmark this thread, and check back every few days.

Cheers!

Hey Appreciate Reader!

Can I just say, this line of yours I found so genuinely, in a warm way, amusing: "It’s literally just one single question this time, and a fairly simple one at that!"

Hehehe! You may not realise it, but your questions send me into a tizzy! They are so fundamentally complex & challenging! I wish to avoid them....genuinely.....which also makes me feel I must address them....especially when asked with such clarity, understanding, thoughtfulness, civility etc. But not just to be polite towards you, "duty", but rather I must confront why I wish to avoid it! Thank you for challenging me, sincerely.

Reading your questions floods my mind with almost infinite concepts on so many different "levels" or disciplines or perspectives, that I don't know where to begin and know I can't cover it all.....just like the last time you asked penetrating questions! So I thought I'd just narrow it down to a few approaches.......you wrote:

AR: "If you could tell us, from your personal experience (as well as your personal insights) : How does someone with these very deep experiences and insights find themselves able to carry on with the motions of daily life : work, relationships, so forth?"

Ah, this reminds me of a conversation I had way back say 18 years ago. I was going through all my own awakenings, ecstasies, visions, kundalini etc.

At the time, I could enter really ecstatic states, "samadhis", quite easily and was doing so for much of the day. It is an ecstasy that cannot be compared to anything else one has ever experienced. To give a visceral, heart-felt (and something I've never, or very rarely if ever, mentioned?) example, and one that I suspect also answers your questions on another dimension......once you feel THAT love, unconditional, complete with a sense of "eternal", then, alas, no human relationship will ever be able to compare, it will always be a "let-down" and humanities inhumanity a "disappointment". Perhaps this is where concepts of kal and dayal, or demi-urge and God arise from, the apparent disparity between this unconditional, non-judgemental, overwhelming "love", and how the physical world and existence can often appear to be? Wow, I've already lost the plot of the simple anecdote in words, words, words (I've already lost Jen! Irony is, though, I completely agree......too many words! :).

Point is this, I was confused by this apparent dichotomy between these ecstatic "inner" states, and living a mundane, physical life. I wanted to remain in ecstasy! (OH, that reminds me - read Jack Kornfield's "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry", one my favourite ever books on the subject, and quite frankly will answer your questions here better than I ever can! It's fantastic!) I at this point spoke to one of Faqir Chand's "successors" called Harjit Singh (I think?) by telephone. He lives (or lived 18 years ago at least) about 3 miles away from me, and as I had a deep admiration for Chand, I had to speak to him. During the conversation, he told me about his tapes, his japa, etc. But I asked him, how does this ultimate realisation thing practically work. I feel ecstasy, nirvikalpa samadhi, in meditation.....(forget your japa! :)....but how can I experience, and function "normally" during non-meditation and still feel this ecstasy?

His answer was quite beautiful, and probably exactly what I needed to hear (though perhaps not as how he intended it ;), it pushed me past this obsession with samadhi; "you can't, we all go in and out of these states, it cannot be permanent whilst going about your daily experiences"!! How blunt! (I do paraphrase from memory, 18 years later!).

So, there's one answer, on one level.

On another level, these experiences do affect you in practical ways. I can't remember what I shared in our last discussion, but I am 40 and single, nowadays interact very little socially, menial job (relatively, finance!), not very well off etc. Pretty much a "loser" by this world's standards, guess I'll have to live with that :)

As to the type of "state of being" going about your daily, mundane activities (and, I pretty much do no FORMAL meditation at all for several years now), it is inexplicable really. It is utterly unremarkable on one level. And profound ecstasy on another. Here's the thing though, I believe the very "taste" of consciousness, WHATEVER it is doing - and I do all sorts of idiotic, vain, petty, egoic etc things, I feel road rage! I can act like an asshole, more often than not, quite frankly.....the very "taste" is ITSELF ecstasy, and we ALL are that very consciousness, that very "taste" itself.

We are all Gods, and we all know it! That's why we want to come to forums like this, to express our consciousness; I EXIST!

How to put in another way. When we're young, we want to go out and party, listen to good music, get high, flirt & more with beautiful women (or men), do "exciting" things. But then when you get older, it's not that we don't like fun and excitement, but that our very tastes change. We feel happier and more contented sitting in a quiet place, reading a book, meditating or watching a TV show. What has changed? Is partying, socialising, making love to beautiful partners etc no longer pleasant or exciting? No, of course it is! But you've matured as a person, and you can take it or leave it. Probably leave it and curl up with a good book. :)

So I would explain my experience with visionary and dualistic experiences in this manner too. Yeah, every now and then I will shift my attention to those "spaces", go on an inter-galactic tour of creation, feel the ecstasy of the motion of consciousness.....it is literally mere attention's breadth away, from all of us. It's just like an audio (yanny or laurel, c'mon, fess up?) or visual illusion - it's all there all the time, but our attention is focused on one particular dimension of our existence, which is far vaster than many have imagined. But really, it get's kind of boring, you "mature". Just doing the laundry is reality itself, suchness, perfection. This is where you are, why strive to go somewhere else. A recent post here, by a Kathie Weston, I thought rather beautifully stated a similar type of acceptance of just who, where and what we are.....this is a diminishing of ego and simply entering the "flow" of things without resistance. Surrender!


You write: "No doubt you’ve heard of the concept of ‘Nishkam Karm’? The qualifier “Nishkam” I can understand and appreciate and empathize with, but it’s the noun “Karm” that that qualifier describes that I find difficult to wrap my head around, when it happens to be qualified by that particular adjective. Wouldn’t adding that qualifier to that noun result in the whole thing simply disappearing -- Poof, just like that! -- much like matter disappearing without a trace at the touch of anti-matter?

After all, it is desire that literally feeds action. In the absence of the former -- and this absence is not mere theory, it is closely felt and experienced first-hand by anyone who’s spent some time immersing themselves in thoughts and experiences of this nature -- how is the latter sustained? Sustained not for a day or two, but consistently?"


Actually, I had to google nishkam karm!! :) There's just so many darn technical hindi, pali, tibetan etc terms for these things it's hard to keep track, thank God for Sri Maharaj Google Ji!

Again, a HUGE topic covered by luminous texts such as Yoga Vasistha, Tripura Rahasyam, countless other texts and gurus!

First of all, I personally would like to emphasise I don't think (or experience) this as an "absolute & set state" sort of thing. It is a spectrum of "awareness", and we all - even the greatest of "Satgurus" and "Avatars" or whatever, have a human side too (or at least the vast majority, I do not reject the possibility there has or are such persons, however I suspect the candidates for such a position on a blog like this would be laughably absurd!), we all ebb and flow along this spectrum of being in the "flow" to deeply identifying with the limited ego, that is the nature of the human experience.

Secondly, and finally I guess because I'm tired now! - I want to try and express my understanding/experience of the "mechanics" of this process, which hopefully sheds light on what this desire-less action really is.

As we're talking in concepts, we're talking in dualities, and if as I suggest reality is ultimately non-dual, then we are eternally doomed not to be able to understand this through those concepts, words. So, in amongst a non-dual reality, let me provide a decidedly dualistic description:

There is matter, physical bodies, a brain, correlated with a mind. This is the famous "meat-robot" of atheists and materialist reductionists. And so, when focused on that dimension of reality exclusively, it is!

What happens is, though, consciousness comes (one last time, please bear in mind there is ultimately ONLY consciousness, and this is merely a manifestation within consciousness/non-duality) and "touches" this matter, this sack of shit and bones, this meat robot that atheists & reductionists go as far as to tell us doesn't even contain consciousness as they have been unable to locate it despite centuries of reductionist attempts, so therefore it is clearly merely a delusion that we, unconscious, errrrm, "beings", are having. (A strange narrative indeed!).

At the point that consciousness touches that body, an "ego" forms, appears. But it is an illusion, like a vortex in consciousness, it has no self-reality.

The more the ego strengthens, the more consciousness forgets it's true identity as the formless, eternal, indivisible.....it is an illusion that consciousness itself has willed, or it could not occur.........it starts to think it IS the ego. When this happens, the ego starts to think it is in control..........not the forces of matter, causality, the mindless motion of physical laws, the atheist's dream! However, it is not in control.....most of us would probably agree with this? The ego is like a half broken ship being tossed about a violent ocean. The captain pretends he is still in charge.

However, the grip of consciousness on this "ego" can be loosened. When this happens, it becomes like an "observer" (ahh, this is not psychological "depersonalisation" I am discussing here, a state I have also experienced!), an "ecstatic" but detached observer......and the antics of the meat-robot, dragged this way and that by fate & causality, are observed with some amusement, compassion, love, forgiveness.

So this is "nishkam karm", actionless action is consciousness not associating with ego as it is dragged, inevitably by dint of it's precarious human existence, this way and that. This is also where the concept of "pralabdh karma" comes from. Even the enlightened sage and mystic must live through their remaining karma for this life!

At this point, please bear in mind these are conceptual metaphors to describe non-dual realities. We are in Edwin Abott's Flatland, seeing only one, partial, incomplete part of reality, profoundly encumbered by our minds, egos and intellects, the concepts & words we use to structure our internal reality, our egoic abodes.


Annnnnyway, how's that?! I know I've forgotten something I thought would be essential to include, but that was always going to be the way!.

I hope this at least partially, in some way, hinted at possible answers to your very intelligent and thought-provoking questions.

Cheers my friend,

Manjit

manjit: "grant you eternal peace" - thanks, but no thanks.
wish you some capacity.

Appreciative Reader, quite long indeed. hope all's good.
was busy in preparations, might get lost into it again, soon.

Jim, Osho, you're missing and missed!

Manjit, thanks for that lovely comment!

(And I’m very uncomfortable knowing, from what you say in another thread, that I’ve ended up upsetting your personal schedule by asking this question, gotten you to miss your weekend workout in order to answer my question! I’d much prefer you to have answered me later, in a week’s time or two, rather than personally inconvenience yourself.)


What you’ve written is, expectedly, extremely insightful, and I absolutely enjoyed going through it.

But you know what : you answered this from an angle that wasn’t quite what I was going for. I get why this happened : your own ‘experiences’, as you have described them, have always been both plentiful and dramatic ; and so you focused on this answer from that angle.

My own ‘experiences’, although not exactly non-existent, have been far more humble, in terms of number, as well as intensity, as well as (and I use this word literally, with no negative connotation) dramatic content. Plus one of the Practices I follow explicitly gets me to focus on the impermanence of even such experiences as I do end up having myself, so that I tend, especially of late, not attach too much importance to them (in practice, I mean, and as it applies to myself ; even as I remain fascinated with others’ experiences at a conceptual level, as a matter of interest).

I say all this to explain the particular nuance I was going for : one result of all one’s Practice tends to be that one sees clearly the essential emptiness of all one’s work-a-day pursuits as well as relationships, etc ; and one is then hard put to find the motivation to carry on with those pursuits, to keep devoting to them the time and energy they demand of one. I don’t know if I’ve been able to explain myself? The ‘experiences’ and even the occasional ‘bliss’ serve to highlight this emptiness of one’s mundane life, but they are not central to having one see them as mundane.

(Perhaps a less wordy way to explain this would be to refer to what Jen had said earlier, in a different thread, about ‘lack of motivation’ and apathy arising out of protracted meditation practice : except this isn’t lassitude per se, not a lack of general motivation, merely the clear recognition that what appears important and urgent and what sucks up a great deal of one’s life-energy isn’t, in fact, important at all. Given that clear recognition, the question arises, and keep arising : Why persist, then, with the mundane, beyond that little -- that very little -- which is absolutely necessary?)

My own way of dealing with this has been to simply carry on nevertheless : in other words, not a ‘solution’ at all, simply a determined refusal to properly engage with the issue at all. I was wondering if you, or any of others here, have faced this issue, and what ways you/they have found, personally, to deal with this.

Hey, One Initiated!

You’re right, one does miss some of these regular and old-time commenters here, and one wonders where they’ve got to.

What “preparation” were you speaking of? Did you mean your spiritual practice and your meditation? If that is what you meant, then I agree, it is important, occasionally, to de-focus completely from all non-essentials in order to focus all of oneself into one’s Practice. I have myself found this necessary, not always but on occasion, in order to keep my own Practice on track.

And I suppose this applies not just to ‘spiritual practice’ (grand word, that! and pretentious-ish, as well!), but to anything that one needs to focus on protractedly, be it work or study or, well, anything at all.

.

Or did I end up going off on my own personal tangent there, while you yourself had meant some more mundane sort of “preparation”?

Hey Appreciative Reader!!

Hey, I wanted to post here really or I wouldn't have done it....to be honest, I needed to rest my body for a few days and not do anything physically exert full, any excuse would have got me off the gym! :)

Oh okay, I do see your question now.

It kind of depends on exactly what practice you're doing, to be honest. It seems through your meditation you are experiencing things like the insight of impermanence, so suggests some sort of vipassana technique? The thing is, depending on your practice and your school, they tend to provide a framework........and they all (usually, some like RS are notable exceptions) tend to include the not only potential but almost guaranteed "negative" or difficult aspects of meditation, such as feelings of depression, depersonalisation, lack of motivation etc.

How about seeing if this book is of interest to you?:

https://integrateddaniel.info/book/

It explains all the phases - of which your experience appears to be a very clear example of - that one passes through, and what one can expect to see "beyond" it?

Also, I would strongly recommend the Jack Kornfield book "After the Ecstasy...", even if you haven't had the "ecstasy" yet, it will still teach you things you may need to hear, I suspect...

Personally, what can I say....persevere! There are frequent dark nights - and boy oh boy are some of them so fucking deep and dark!! - that one ends up having to go through to reach the "light".

If you haven't tasted the deepest, darkest despair & suffering, then you don't deserve the light! This isn't a personal, conceptual judgement......this is a revalation from within the light. You cannot understand love until you have faced, accepted & integrated suffering, it feels like you "do not deserve" it otherwise. Very hard to explain what I mean here.

Anyway, as always interesting reading your comments & questions! I'll probably be off for a while after today though...

Take care!

manjit

hi Appreciative Reader, (& Appreciated Writer),

You got that right, it's not for the mundane,

Have a good time, everyone.

Hi Appreciative

You asked

"My own way of dealing with this has been to simply carry on nevertheless : in other words, not a ‘solution’ at all, simply a determined refusal to properly engage with the issue at all. I was wondering if you, or any of others here, have faced this issue, and what ways you/they have found, personally, to deal with this."

The ecstacy of meditation at some point becomes the ecstacy of ever moment of every day.

There are at least two ways to describe this.
1. Your conscious partnership with your Master.
" That all things are possible to him who believes - that they are less difficult to him who hopes - that they are more ready to him who loves, and still more available to him who practices these three virtues....
That the greater perfection a soul aspires after, the more dependent it is upon Divine grace "
"
Brother Lawrence, The Practice of the Presence of God

2. The infinite bliss in the empty space during the mundane day. In mundane you see God. God in the French fries. God in the snarky co-worker. And it's all bliss. You can't judge it or anything anymore from a personal perspective because from that perspective, it's perfect.

"one day a sufi sees an empty food sack hanging on a nail. He brings to turn and tear his shirt, saying,
Food for what needs no food!
A cure for hunger!

His burning grows and others join him, shouting and moaning in the love - fire.

An idle passerby comments, "It's only an empty sack!"

The sufi says, "Leave. You want what we don't want. You are not a lover."

A lover's food is the love of bread, not the bread. No one who really loves, loves existence.

Lovers have nothing to do with existence. They collect the interest without the capital.

No wings, yet they fly all over the world. No hands, but they carry the polo ball from the field.

That dervish got a sniff of reality. Now he weaves baskets of pure vision.

Lovers pitch tents on a field of nowhere. They are all one color, like that field. "
...

Rumi, The Food Sack

"Take anything from me, take everything from me, but do not take my love and my grief for my departed Master from me."
Mira

Hi Manjit,.....Thanks for your nice comments about me and asking me to not run away from Pornsang.

I invited my Physicist friend to post here, in Brian’s Church. But he said he saw to much Porn Links here, and is not interested in discussing porn in Spiritual Forums. The Porn Cams that RSSB Satsangi 777 posted must have scared him off.

Your recent Posts have been really deep, and instructive, in spite of your being rejected by Gurinder Singh for Initiation. No wonder! He doesn’t want any more competition.

Referencing your statement that I “ insinuated” along with Chris that you were a homosexual, i never accused you, nor did Chris, Gloria was the first that actually asked you if you were, than called you a Father F—-er , as she did me, in RSS , a dozen years ago,

You have convinced me, you are hetrosexual, and not a homo, but,.....as Charan Singh said, accurately, Homsexuality is UNATATURAL, in most present societies.

True, they can not help being born that way, as they are in transition from being incarnated in a different Gender than in the immediate past life, or priors. I know you do not subscribe to Reincarnation, but if that is not the cause of being Homosexual or Lesbian, than choosing to induldge in sex with the same Gender IS un-natural.

I have been abound ( this time) about 35 years longer than you, and have known many Gays, even among my own relatives. Regardless of their talk, I have never met a Joyful, happy Gay. They all have guilt complexes that many times lead to suicide, as well as HIV and AIDS.

If there are ANY happy Gays posting in Brian’s Church, I would invite them to share their happy life styles with out guilt. If the life style is normal, than there would never be any guilt felt.

Manjit, with your deep writing style, and knowledge of both Hindi and English, you should consider becoming a Guru, at least, getting an interview by Rick Archer on Batgap which might launch you in to a new Career.

At 40,with your many years of experience, you already have a huge Jump Start on most of the Neo-Advaita Preachers on the present scene.

I never had a real Spiritual life change until Age 35, and never came to the Sant Mat Path until age 45.

If I had not been drawn to Sant Mat by Dr. Julian Johnson, then confirmed by Dr. Roland de Vries, who were both Christian Ministers, as I was, than I most likely would not have ever asked any Guru for Initiation.

I must honestly admit, since my Oct. 2017 visit to the Dera, I now strangely am much more receptive to the Articles David Lane has been writing for the last 20 years, at least regarding Gurus, but certainly not his Brain Neuron Philosophy. But, since he has never been honest enough to return here, or at RSS to share if he HAS become “ a changed man”, since his April 2017 visit to the Dera with his wife and two sons, as the U.S. Rep. Vince Savarese told me, while riding on the Dera Golf Cart with him.

If David ever does have the Canjunes to show up and bring us up to date if he is the Old Dera 2017 David Lane,...or the new Post Dera 2017 Professor David Lane, after hearing Gurinder’s Sant mat 2 Advaita Sat Sang, which is more conducive to what Lane has been preaching for years, then....of course, he should also be asked if he is OK with Gurinder’s Sexual “jokes’ , and if he would have been embarrassed had he been in the Q & A session with his Professor Wife and Sons, as I was.

Thanks again, for your kind comments about me, Manjit. Truth is Truth, and any BSers not in the Truth, quickly recognise the difference between Truth and BS.

I just returned from being in China for 14 days and Lhasa, Tibet for 3 days. I wrote a long post from China, but it was blocked. They block just about every thing other than emails..

Cheers,
Jim


Hi Jim
Perhaps it had to do with being raised in Southern California, but some of the most well balanced and kind human beings I have ever met were Gay.

The ones I knew had a better, higher value system than the rest of us.

Hi Jim
How many times where you there Sir in the mean time

It seems the 4 characters are still exploding in u

Pls , now leave it and meditate

777

Spence writes to Jim,....”Perhaps it had to do with being raised in Southern California, but some of the most well balanced and kind human beings I have ever met were Gay.”

Me: For your information, I was not rased in So. Cal. I never moved there until I was age 37. Plus, I never said being Gay was not being kind. I said being Gay is Unatural, in present Societies, agreeing with what Master Charan Singh stated.

Considering, I pioneered a Church in Laguna Beach, California, that is the 2nd , largest Gay community in California, next to San Francisco, and which had an open Gay Mayor for many years while I lived there, I KNOW how “ balenced” the Gay life style becomes, and the guilt Gays have to live with, while trying to remain hidden. The Street I lived on in Laguna was mostly Gay, and a Gay Vetinararian bought my house and moved in with his male “Partner” , who deserted him a couple of years later for another “ Partner.”

So, please don’t try to “ enlighten” me about how kind and balenced Guys are. 10% of the human population are Gay, so must considered “ unatural” to the remaining 90% who are natural heterosexuals.

I have known many that have died of AIDS, caused by indulging in promiscuous Gay Sex.

But, I am not an Advocate of trying to reform Gays. They are what they were born as. ( Unatural )

😇
Jim

.

To Manjit: have you ever read “ Avatar of Night” by Tal Brooke?

https://www.amazon.com/Avatar-Night-Tal-Brooke/dp/150764941X

If not, you remind me a lot of Tal Brooke, who is older than you, but has been around the block many times, but has never been initiated in to Sant Mat. He has written several other books, since, that are real interesting reads, should you be interested. Now, he is one Dude that could match your Spiritual Wisdom , and keep you from getting bored while duscussing Gurus!

Strange as it might seem, after all he has been thru, he wound up as a Born Again Christian!

Read the Amazon Reviews if you have never read any of his Books. I read this book over 25 years ago, before I knew about Sant Mat, and was reading Sai Baba’s books.

I have also read all of his other interesting books.

Cheers,
Jim

I think although i know very few gays, that it is very natural for a human to act like that. I mean is riding a bike or flying a plane natural? I think that almost every thing what people do is natural. It is natural to us people to explore but many things people do are not good actually people can do very ugly stuff( killing,raping...) so on. I am somewhere in between with gay stuff...i mean i never judge them but i cannot imagine to have sex other than with my wife. So it is hard for me to understand gay cause i simply cannot understand and thats why i am leaving them alone and am not judging and am always open for gays to explain me how and why they feel. I leave people to live their own life and avoid judging. Peace to all of you

Hey Jim - so glad to see you back posting, great! Your voice & experience should not be silenced! :o) I also read your blog post about your visit to Beas, a few days ago....quite blunt!

Quick responses to your comments, as I didn't intend to post here for a while...

Re. being a guru - completely uninterested!

Re. being "rejected" by Gurinder - just want to make it clear the "rejection" was when I wrote a letter directly to him aged around 18. He sent a reply saying read the books & apply at aged 24. Writing that letter & receiving the response - the "rejection" - was actually the start of my most intense period of "bhakti" towards Gurinder which lasted several years - about 4 or so?. I everntually reached a "Chadian" stage where I was no longer interested in the "initiation", just as I am not by "baptism" or "shaktipat" by any other guru.

It should be clear getting initiated is quite easy for anybody who fulfills the basic criteria, basically above age 24 or 25. You could probably dress up a monkey and it would receive initiation :)

Re. homosexuality and Charan's comments about it. I agree that many homosexuals - though obviously not all - have numerous complexes, guilt etc.

That is precisely because of the judgemental, ignorant, un-compassionate & unloving nature of many religions & so-called "spiritual" leaders, such as Charan's.

Your comment is akin to an abuser blaming the victim mentality. That you don't see that I personally find sad, but find solace that nowadays most people would agree with me.

I don't wish to debate the pros and cons, personally. I will just post Charan's comment, and leave it to the sagacity of any readers just how loving, compassionate, and the literal manifestation of God and Grace this comment is. There is a reason nobody under the age of 30-35 has any interest in RS and it's alleged "Perfect Living Masters!! Sagacity itself is a gift from God :) From an official RSSB Publication, great compassion. love and wisdom pours:

"In “Quest for Light,” a book containing extracts from letters written by an Indian guru, Charan Singh, the guru said:
"Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so.""

Finally - Tal Brooks - I've heard his name years ago - isn't that the "confessions of a God seeker" book or am I mixing him up? I definitely did look into him decades ago. Hold on, perhaps he was a Christian guy at the end of his path?! I will look into it again, cheers Jim!

Anyway, again - great to see you're back posting, and hope you are your missus are doing well :)

Take care,

Manjit

Hi Manjit,...no, “ Confessions of a God Seeker” was written by another man, named Johnson, as I recall, who was either a H.I. of Eckankar, as I recall. He was used, then abused, and fired as a National Speaker.

Tal Brooke has all the Credentials, such as being one of Robert Monroe’s early Hemisync Volunterrs, even before Tom Campbell, as he lived here in Virginia near Monroe’s TMI Resort. He was Monroe’s friend who explained the Eastern side of Spiritual Philosophy to Monroe, in exchange for Monroe’s Astral Projection Journeys. Interestingly, Tal Brooke said he went as far as he vould using Monroe’s Methodology, and determined the low Astral Planes were as far as Monroe or any of his Associates such as Tom Campbell ever traveled.

Then, he gave it all up, and went to India to seek the real Juice, ending up as Sai Baba’s Chief Western Desciple!

His Book, “ Riders of the Cosmic Circuit” is another great read, ss well. Like you, I prefer personal experences over Dogma parroted from others Books. Tal Brooke is a hard act to follow! I love hs sincerity and honesty.

Don’t pass up his Books if you have never read them, for sheer entertsinment, if nothing else!

Cheers,
Jim

https://sites.google.com/site/wiry86dg7g76td7d/pdf-download-riders-of-the-cosmic-circuit-online-library---by-tal-brooke

Manjit and Spencer, thanks both of you for your comments here in response to mine.

Didn’t quite hit the spot, though. Somehow we seemed to have been talking past one another here, that is, talking about wholly different matters (or at least, wholly different aspects of this).

No doubt the lack was mine, in not being able to convey what I what I wanted to convey clearly enough. (Or else, perhaps we’re at different places on this, and so are not able to directly empathize with one another in so much as this particular issue is concerned.)

Not a big deal. I’m very grateful you took the time to respond, both of you.

Thank you Appreciative, for your comments. I guess it is an individual matter. The difficulty, for me, of returning to this prison is offset by bringing Master with me, and knowing tomorrow I can return to that pasture. And then the bliss I'm assaulted with in a quiet moment that years ago would have felt like loneliness. Now feels life wealth. Experience and how it affects us is quite an interesting thing

Ishwar Puri has mentioned in one of his talks that he believes Faqir Chand was a PLM

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