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December 09, 2017

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Brian I think we get a clear picture of how your mind works.

When you find any source of peace inside yourself, please share that. I'm very interested to read what occupies your mind, besides the above.

OK Brian, some small Sant Mat points needing clarification.
1. The Master doesn't generally alter the destiny in this life which we must undergo. In only about a hundred Satsangs, including those still on tape, does Maharaji spell this out. He often used the example of a car crash or a plane crash. If it's in our destiny, we'll have to go through it.
2. A stab becoming a pin pick also means we don't experience things so acutely as we have Master to turn to internally. Maharaji said, again, in about a hundred Satsangs that the thorns don't disappear. We wear strong boots.

You have no idea what this couple was experiencing internally at the time. They may have been pulled up well before their murder. It's possible they weren't there. But there is no way to know, so it's all conjecture either way, to say Master already took them, or that they suffered greatly.

Because you haven't been pulled up by Master just before a car crash, or some other horrible event you cannot know how real and incredible that is. I know. Having experienced it, I believe this couple experienced something more wonderful than can be imagined. They got a great deal, I believe.

Your having not experienced it, what else can you go on but your limited judgment of other people who died decades ago, people you never knew, events we have no full account of.

But you do know what Master taught. Your apparent surprise and effort at shock and contrast between these events and Sant Mat reflects some foundational misunderstanding. But I suspect it is just lack of experience. And therfore lack of faith in what Master said repeatedly.

The path you describe is not Sant Mat as the Master' s teach. It's your own straw man. You are arguing against your own construction. And in doing this I agree with you. One day you may come to understand Sant Mat as it is, and no longer cling to Sant Mat as you are.

Christians were crucified as Romans stood by and said "where is your God now?" . But what happened to them and their Faith is actually proof of Christ.

Brian you have picked bad company.

If you want to view sant-mat from the prism of crime . Then compare the percentage of crime by people associated with sant-mat vs percentage of crime in rest of society.

Thats it Brian IS the biggest gossip girl around!

I have personally known RSSB initiates who were murdered (1), raped (1) and killed in car accidents (3). I knew another who was permanently brain damaged in a car accident. Bad things have happened to me too like hearing Joey Behar talk politics on "The View".

I saw first hand one of the car accident victims die. He was writhing in agony screaming for his mother. If the Radiant Form was on the scene he didn't know it.

Satsangis like to think the death process is going to be a spiritual picnic since they have an all powerful Master who knows all and sees all and who will guide them to splendorous inner regions of bliss and wonder. They like to think they have something special going on that will spare them from the miseries that the hapless and karmicly unfortunate masses have to endure. Not necessarily the case. I mean, something serious enough to cause the body to die is gonna suck even if there is a radiant oasis of angels and gurmukhs on the other side.

Hi Tucson

You wrote

"Not necessarily the case. I mean, something serious enough to cause the body to die is gonna suck even if there is a radiant oasis of angels and gurmukhs on the other side."

It won't suck if you aren't there. That's the goal. The practice of dying while living. How did the martyrs endure torture? They had already practiced withdrawing from the senses through nothing more than worshiping Christ in deep prayer and focus day and night.

The process of limbs going numb and that floating sensation is partly physiological... Disconnecting from sensory input. The capacity is built into the body.

The idea that not all Satsangis experience that is really an encouragement to stick to the practice.

In some ways it has very little to do with concepts of spirit and afterlife. But if these encourage practice they have their place.

If they don't work for you, still, the practice. And that practice yields progress.

Spence wrote: "It won't suck if you aren't there"

-- Who's doing the screaming then?

I agree with Spencer - it is all concentration - be careful not to listen to the wrong side as you will begin hearing unworldly screams.

L, gossip? I shared a well-researched story in LA Weekly. That isn't gossip. It's facts.

Hi Tucson
You wrote
"-- Who's doing the screaming then?"

Ask the martyrs.

Spencer, I spend essentially zero time thinking about Sant Mat or anything spiritual outside of the time I'm writing a Churchless blog post. But since you asked how I spend my time, I'd be glad to bore you with some details.

We live on ten rural acres. Today I got a generator started after it flooded yesterday. But the battery was shot, so I had to decide whether to order another one. My wife and I just got back from a monthly discussion group that we started many years ago, and which I still do the scheduling for.

This morning I designed a Facebook page that I was asked to create by opponents of a music festival that could attract 60,000 people to our neighborhood close to the Ankeny National Wildlife Refuge. I'm pleased that it's gotten 50 likes so far. You can admire my Birds Not Bands work here:

https://www.facebook.com/BirdsNotBands/

I go to three Tai Chi classes a week, as I've been doing for 13 years. I also work out at an athletic club three days a week. I have two other blogs that I write for, HinesSight and Salem Political Snark. I also maintain several Facebook pages about local issues in Salem: Strange Up Salem and Salem Can Do Better.

I'm on the steering committee of Salem Community Vision, a citizen activist group. So I keep busy with all kinds of stuff that doesn't involve this Church of the Churchless blog. Someone emailed me a link to the LA Weekly story about the two murders. I didn't seek out that information.

I realize that people have the mistaken view that I spend most of my day thinking of ways to bash religiosity, but this is very much untrue. My passion is much more about local, state, and national politics, along with the aforementioned huge amount of work it takes to maintain our house and ten acres.

Lastly, if you REALLY want to be bored, there's my Brian Hines website that I made with Adobe Spark. If you look at it you'll note that my mention of this blog is minimal. See:

http://www.brianhines.com

So a true believing satsangi, which I definitely am not now, would have to accept that the horrendous murder of the Bermans was allowed to happen by the guru — perhaps with some theorizing that the Bermans had some sort of Bad Karma relationship with the killer.

One intriguing mystical explanation of this mess is that our true essence is the contracted consciousness of God. This so-called destiny of good and evil events was already set in "no-time", a kind of singular "Big Bang" when God decided to individuate his consciousness into some poor shlub and send him to this physical playpen for a set of fixed adventures.

Of course to make it real, he had to lobotomize his all-knowing consciousness as I noted. What kind of adventure would it be if the shlub knew how the machinery ran behind the curtain and how it'd all end... that the murder and mayhem were part of the puppet show just so it'd look and sound downright scary and real.

But, a coded instruction was implanted into said shlub so if he tired of the playpen , he could seek a guru to show him the way home. In reality, little shlubby "you" becomes big "You" again when consciousness is restored. "You" implanted "you" with a way tp get the hell outta Dodge at the appointed hour. "You" punk'd himself for a little fun.

So, stay with me now... "You" are that "radiant form" too. It's just a little talisman to remind of your real self, the one who sees all, knows all, does all,. Even eerier, besides that "radiant form", "You" project a physical guru to help with the journey home, namely, the long, hard road to undo that "consciousness lobotomy".

Hey, it could be,... just sayin'. Real mystics please weigh in. Most of these ideas resonate with me but then I always felt I was a little crazy shlub, never living up to my true potential.

So a true believing satsangi, which I definitely am not now, would have to accept that the horrendous murder of the Bermans was allowed to happen by the guru — perhaps with some theorizing that the Bermans had some sort of Bad Karma relationship with the killer.

One intriguing mystical explanation of this mess is that our true essence is the contracted consciousness of God. This so-called destiny of good and evil events was already set in "no-time", a kind of singular "Big Bang" when God decided to individuate his consciousness into some poor shlub and send him to this physical playpen for a set of fixed adventures.

Of course to make it real, he had to lobotomize his all-knowing consciousness as I noted. What kind of adventure would it be if the shlub knew how the machinery ran behind the curtain and how it'd all end... that the murder and mayhem were part of the puppet show just so it'd look and sound downright scary and real.

But, a coded instruction was implanted into said shlub so if he tired of the playpen , he could seek a guru to show him the way home. In reality, little shlubby "you" becomes big "You" again when consciousness is restored. "You" implanted "you" with a way tp get the hell outta Dodge at the appointed hour. "You" punk'd himself for a little fun.

So, stay with me now... "You" are that "radiant form" too. It's just a little talisman to remind of your real self, the one who sees all, knows all, does all,. Even eerier, besides that "radiant form", "You" project a physical guru to help with the journey home, namely, the long, hard road to undo that "consciousness lobotomy".

Hey, it could be,... just sayin'. Real mystics please weigh in. Most of these ideas resonate with me but then I always felt I was a little crazy shlub, never living up to my true potential.

Your blog is all big gossip Brian wake up.

"The spiritual significance of this tale connects to how Sant Mat believers like Mary Sullivan, who was quoted near the end of this LA Weekly story, look upon “bad things happening to good satsangis.” It’s a lot like how Christians rationalize bad things happening to good believers in God/Jesus."

Yes Brian, quite true. Many of your posts and related comments highlight the reasons we react so when our beliefs come into conflict commonly referred to as 'Cognitive Dissonance' where our beliefs, attitudes and behaviours cause us uncomfortable mental conflict and we react to justify our positions.

I read your blogs from time to time as some of the books you review are very good. I have just been reading McMahan's book 'Meditation, Buddhism and Science' - an interesting read. But so far, my all-time favourite has been 'The Great Illusion - The Myth of Free Will Consciousness and the Self' by Paul Singh (no doubt the very title could cause a mild attack of Cognitive Dissonance.)

Hi Brian

Thanks for sharing. My folks had a place on Salt Spring Island, BC, for over thirty years. So I'm a little familiar with the joy and toil of maintaining a farm.

I wanted to see what positive activities inspired you, since this blog tends to go negative so much of the time. I appreciate your schedule. It seems extremely balanced and focused on helping your community and living close to the Earth.

It's strange that after so much effort to live a simple life of sustainance and community, you put some fairly lurid stuff here attacking Sant Mat. And I get that this isn't your goal in life.

From your perspective the book on this was closed a long time ago. Perhaps you maintain this site as another sort of community service. I do enjoy the dialogue.

I get from your comments that you derive little pleasure posting some of these things.

May I make a suggestion?

Your lifestyle is a far better case for an enlightened Atheism, or even agnosticism, than articles such as this.

When you have posted what you get from Tai Chi, there is much that is positive.

People want a lifestyle, a philosophy. We create one for ourselves, our narrative. But that can't be by rejection alone.

There are many bad people in the world, but many more who are wrongly accused. It seems far beneath you to take that risk when you have a much stronger case to make expanding upon the wisdom of your own life.

The wisdom of fixing the flooded generator.

I think Brian is doing a great service to others. He is not being negative, he is being insightful and truthful. This blog helps me so much since I've seen through the facade of Sant Mat. I can understand why people cling to their beliefs. I used to do the same. Letting go and jumping into the unknown is scary but actually very fruitful. New ideas and theories come to mind and every day is a new beginning.

The problem Jen, is calling people ignorant because their experience is different from yours.

It's unnecessary and actually takes people away from the truth within themselves.

Ten people who think slavery is fine does not make slavery fine.

It doesn't help those ten to encourage each other to think they have stumbled upon a universal truth. They just share the same prejudice.

And understanding the human condition, pointing to the flaws in one black man as a justification for slavery is wrong. So I can't argue the facts presented, only the bias that twists their interpretation into "they are wrong and ignorant, and we know better."

Everyone thinks they know best. Everyone has their pet prejudices.

So I advocate a higher ethic. I trust my experience is good for me, and honor that someone else's experience is good for them. Even if they appear to be completely at odds.

It's all we really have. It shapes our thinking.

If you need to believe Sant Mat is wrong in order to feel right, I suggest you find a way to feel more confident in your own sense of what is right for you, and not rely on the very flawed argument that other people are ignorant or deluded.

You don't know all those people, and you don't need to in order to conclude Sant Mat and Jen have not been a good fit. No one else needs to enter that equation but a Jen confident in her own experience alone to make judgments about her own life.

By the way Brian, while we're on the subject of me criticizing your thinking, when "Life Is Fair" came out I was a little surprised.

Life is not fair at all. Well written, flawed premise.

In short, it was never fair. It might be in balance. But it isn't right. It's enslavement. And morally bankrupt.

And saying our enslavement is fair is an insult to that drop of divinity in each of us.

I thought your book reached way too far. It wasn't just the cover that was heavy handed.

Spencer, I've noticed that Brian is very patient and polite in his replies and I have also noticed that the Sant Mat believers who comment here are far more rude, sarcastic and overbearing.

You say "The problem Jen, is calling people ignorant because their experience is different from yours" also that I "rely on the very flawed argument that other people are ignorant or deluded".

I don't think I have ever called people ignorant or deluded and I certainly don't think it either.

Spencer, you are projecting onto me the kind of language and attitude that you actually use.

Spencer, keep this in mind about my book, "Life is Fair." I was asked to write it by Faith Singh, who was in charge of English language books for Radha Soami Satsang Beas at the time. (Maybe she still is.)

Faith told me that before his death Charan Singh, the guru who accepted me for initiation in 1971, had said that he wanted to be able to hand out a little book about the karmic rationale for vegetarianism. Some other people had attempted to research and write such a book, but the project wasn't going very well, so I was asked to give it a try.

I was eager to do so. Back then I was extremely devoted to my guru. And in some ways I still am, because I found Charan Singh to be wonderfully humble and loving.

I threw myself into writing the book. It took several years to complete, as I recall. All of my time and expenses naturally were donated. After several drafts were reviewed by Faith and others, I was asked to come to India to complete the book. Faith phoned me here in the United States, saying, "Life is Fair will be like some other little books we've published recently. You won't be listed as the author." I told her, that's fine, I'm coming to the Dera.

When I arrived, one of the first things Faith said to me, "Actually your name will be on the book." And that was fine with me also. I was at the Dera for several weeks. We finalized a draft of Life is Fair. Then the current guru, Gurinder Singh, approved the manuscript. At least, I'm pretty sure of this, because the book was published by RSSB.

So when you criticize Life is Fair, you are criticizing not just me, but Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh, and the entire Sant Mat philosophy that underlaid the message of Life is Fair. You're welcome to do that. I just want to make sure that you understand why I wrote Life is Fair, and who was involved in approving the book.

You seem to be devoted to Sant Mat in general, and Radha Soami Satsang Beas in particular. Yet in criticizing the book I wrote, you just criticized Sant Mat and RSSB, including the two gurus, Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh, who wanted this book to be written. That's fine. Just own up to your criticism, and the apparent fact that you actually aren't as devoted to Sant Mat and RSSB as you appear to be.

Quote Brian the Buggar
You seem to be devoted to Sant Mat in general, and Radha Soami Satsang Beas in particular. Yet in criticizing the book I wrote, you just criticized Sant Mat and RSSB, including the two gurus, Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh, who wanted this book to be written. That's fine. Just own up to your criticism, and the apparent fact that you actually aren't as devoted to Sant Mat and RSSB as you appear to be.

.....thats a lot of crap Brian and you just used manipulative tactic to save your ass of critic by saying Spence is criticising all sant mat by criticising your book. Thats how you handle critic? Really? Btw Charan criticised many of rssb books . including path of the masters i think its in mathew gospel book answers but not sure. So what if these gurus approve your book so what. You wrote it you and only you. And Spence was criticising you like dud David Lane a few years back on rss forum. After all these years i did not see you reacting on critic as a real open minded atheist or non fundamentalist quite contrary. You act like believer who pose like Brian the atheist proven by science.
Brian you are still a hippy trying and trying to be some intelectual bht you are not and you will never be. Go smoke a joint and have a nice relaxed time. Bring Briant the hippi back and stop posing as deluded atheist intelectual. You are in dellusion. Take shot of Ganja aka Maria and be Just Brian

May I please remember this audience
of June The 20th 2014.

I had placed here a comment and felt a sting of proudness about that

I wrote about it some days later here

At That exact moment of proud the movie my wife was observing stopped
saying "decoding error"

Then I looked to the TV on tilt, showing the last image
and saw the undertitling in dutch :
"You are just a messenger, . . . nothing more . . . "

I took my phone and made a photograph of the screen

Next I reported it here
asking Brian , -if he was interested,- I would mail him the photo

Brian and nobody else ever asked

If any honest person exists on this blog
they can ask me and I will place the picture somewhere else
if Brian would show non interest again

If nobody open, . . .
you better close this blog

The vatican would be glad to pay a billion for such a serendipity to happen
and they would make a lot of profit with it
They call it miracles

RSSB disciples have it all the time but few are provable with hard facts
God is not really often in the hardcore facts business -
S/HE mostly uses LOVE, not IQ

I started commenting in this blog with a very very hard core serendipity
and will end that way

LOVE to all


777

L, thanks for the advice about how I should live my life, but I consider that I'm the best person to decide that.

777, please remember that this blog is called Church of the Churchless for a reason. I started it as a place for people who don't belong to any organized religion and don't believe in unbelievable stuff. You are a strong believer in Sant Mat. That's fine. I welcome comments from all sorts of people, including religious believers. Just understand that if I don't jump to endorse supernatural beliefs, it's because I don't accept them as real. You, and everybody else, are entitled to your own beliefs, but not your own facts.

Hi 777,

We all have serendipity moments, which are really fun. But most of us don't attribute these happenings to some other being like the Master, or to God, or some other kind of mystical, special being.

Its fun to think we are someone special, but if we call these little serendipities "miracles" then I think this is simply magical thinking.

A bit over the top for you to tell Brian if there is no interest "you better close this blog".

It appears that you not only suffer from magical thinking but also you have a kind of superiority complex. Sorry bro, but you are nothing much, just like the rest of us, simply a drop in the ocean.

Hi Brian

You wrote

"You seem to be devoted to Sant Mat in general, and Radha Soami Satsang Beas in particular. Yet in criticizing the book I wrote, you just criticized Sant Mat and RSSB, including the two gurus, Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh, who wanted this book to be written. That's fine. Just own up to your criticism, and the apparent fact that you actually aren't as devoted to Sant Mat and RSSB as you appear to be."

Actually Brian I think you are, again, over reaching. Your understanding is not the Master's. Are you trying to claim it is?

The book is well written as I had stated. You write welk. But the premise is flawed. It's one thing to say Karma explains the cruel discrepancies we witness. Point taken.

But it's wrong to call that "Fair" . There is no justifiable ethic there. Life here is almost entirely unfair. "Bream me up Scott, this planet sucks."

Karma theory is a logical explanation for horror. Not a standard of right and wrong. As a standard, it's a standard for everything wrong.

If you didn't get that, please think about it. I'm not speaking as a representative of Dera.

Yes I'm a devout Satsangi, I'm not sure you know what that is. Might also be you, sir.

It's always a work in progress, Brian.

As for RSSB books most are wonderful, but I'm no fan of Path of the Masters.

Even Charan said we are all following Christ. Dr. Johnson slid off the rails on that one.

But it's OK. He and you are not Masters. Just regular slobs with a level of insight and ignorance, like the rest of us slobs.

Did you think you were something else?

Hi Jen

You wrote

"It appears that you not only suffer from magical thinking but also you have a kind of superiority complex. Sorry bro, but you are nothing much, just like the rest of us, simply a drop in the ocean."

Should one drop stand in judgment of another?

Said the drop.

On death/Or when the inner Radiant Form may suddenly call a disciple (this important message can also be found from Koranic sources):

"..insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect [closest disciples of Christ].

Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.." (Matthew 24:24-51 KJV)

1 Koranic source :

Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!

"Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" (Koran 4:77-78)

Being in the´ here and now..´

Dying while living is noticing..that everything changes every moment..
inside and outside.

Noticing this in your Inner Being gives ´space´

s*

My comment and observations (of Dec 11th) regarding comments on this blog on how " - - - we react so when our beliefs come into conflict commonly referred to as 'Cognitive Dissonance' where our beliefs, attitudes and behaviours cause us uncomfortable mental conflict and we react to justify our positions" - still applies.

I recall a clergyman as saying that "when my beliefs are questioned it is as though I am being physically attacked". And this is true; we have gone from in our distant past where our survival depended on protecting our physical bodies to today's concept culture of defending thoughts and ideas.

Concepts are of course valuable and are needed for planning and building our societies but perhaps we need to recognize that many of our concepts are merely wishful thinking beliefs - which we defend to the death.

This is like Trump's russian connection

If he admits , .. . he confirms he lost the elections and never was president


If Brian would admit the most tiny serendipity
even when it happened on his acres, in front of his nose, . .
the ground , the triggering to blog in this way , attacking Saints is OVER
Personnal regret would be too giant

and Brians said once "yes my brain would explode"
so, Turan is right
this is ego-survival system is at work

777

Even when BabaJI placed the moon suddenly at the other hemisphere
without damage
Brian wouldn't believe

Dear Brian

Whenever you will refind Ratio and you will, . . don't regret too much
You just did His Will
You did more good than bad as an end result

Then Love Charan as you once did
and more

You deserve That

777

We are all just a drop in the ocean.

Quoting Spencer: "Should one drop stand in judgment of another?"

Why is it okay for the current fake mystic, who does not use his name and calls himself 777 on this blog to constantly preach to others as if he is all knowing? Even worse he thinks he has the right to judge Brian who is the owner of this blog. Such false humility combined with a judgmental attitude. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

Why is it okay for the current fake mystic, who does not use his name and calls himself 777 on this blog to constantly preach to others as if he is all knowing? Even worse he thinks he has the right to judge Brian who is the owner of this blog. Such false humility combined with a judgmental attitude. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

I agree...it's not ok. But that's only my flawed, hasty conclusion.
Ten others agreeing with me won't cinch it either. It's beside
the point. Even if millions were to agree with me, the truth is I've reacted is all. When I fly into a judgment my better angels try to nudge me immediately.

What happens to us internally every moment is what's important and interesting. It determines if we listen to those voices, or if there'll be a reasonable, measured response, or a kneejerk, or a diatribe, or a vision of pounding the offender to a pulp. A whole spectrum of reactiveness. So a perception "they're wrong, preachy, or judgmental" says more about us than them.

Ignore this if it's too preachy.

Hi Dungeness, I like your comment.

I agree that I have a reactive response when I am triggered. In the scheme of things what I think and say and feel does not count for much. And then, maybe its good to release an opinion and not to hold onto it so that it can fester inside me and do more damage than necessary. Cheers bro

Hi Jen!

You wrote
"And then, maybe its good to release an opinion and not to hold onto it so that it can fester inside me and do more damage than necessary."

Give it to Master. Yes, we have to move these negative reactions forward and not swallow the poison again. But to enlarge them by our own reaction only digs deeper grooves in our tendency to complain rather than to fix and transform the situation. In truth our reactions come from within, our own past impressions. And reacting negatively, which may feel good, is actually swallowing whole the very poison we didn't want to drink.

"Indulging in anger is drinking poison and expecting the other person to die."
- Dalai Lama

But to give that to Master within, through Simran, does no harm, burdens no one, reduces negativity in the world, and He is the great transformer, the best listener, the true Philosopher's stone. Hand your anger to Him, lovingly, He transforms it into peace and understanding. Then when you speak, you help.

Master accepts your anger. He has very broad shoulders.

Even speaking your reaction does not erase the scars of those impressions.

That's where Grace comes from, Jen. Don't take my word for it. Give it a solid period of trial.

The transformational element is in you.

Spencer, how you love to preach. You say... "That's where Grace comes from, Jen. Don't take my word for it. Give it a solid period of trial. The transformational element is in you."

Honestly Spencer, I think you are very confused. I was a very devoted satsangi for over 40 years. I have changed slowly for some time now and am very happy that I no longer believe in Sant Mat. I can even see that very change happening when I read my own comments some years ago on this blog. What makes you think that your preachiness is going to change who I am now?

Also... "The problem Jen, is calling people ignorant because their experience is different from yours." ...

"If you need to believe Sant Mat is wrong in order to feel right, I suggest you find a way to feel more confident in your own sense of what is right for you, and not rely on the very flawed argument that other people are ignorant or deluded."

Please find my actual words on this blog where I have called people "ignorant" or "deluded".

You use a lot of double speak with layers of sarcasm and criticisms mixed in with your religious preaching.

You see, I'm not trying to be a perfect little satsangi any more. Not fooling myself that I'm much better than others which is exactly what some satsangis do. They feel oh so special, the chosen ones, and then they come on this blog and preach and accuse others of saying things they have not said.

Reading the Bible is difficult, as are pages from the Torah, the Tripitaka, Tao Te Ching, Gita, Koran, etc.

But to find the RSSB teachers relaying the same message; to prepare one's humanity for the final breath, and What or Whom may lie beyond to Judge and call us to account for.

I feel, to find such a similar truth conveyed from different time frames, religious texts or accounts from students from completely different teachers -how then is that possible? Can the intellectual conjure an equation that can succinctly deny the similarities? If not, then there gives room for possible fact.

The only thing left then to any theorem, is to ardently apply the necessary formulary. Be it bought, partially acquired, or freely given.

I wasn't talking specifically about Brian 777 - apparently we are all subject to 'Cognitive Dissonance'. Everyone of the comments here attest to that. Its a question of seeing how we continually avoid the nasty realities of life - and particularly the realities of a constructed 'self' that goes to any lengths to protect the mass of information (self structure) that makes up what we believe to be 'me'.

To be aware of the processes that have made such a 'self' and continue to do so is perhaps the only freedom possible for us. After all, it is can be seen that our 'selves' are what is responsible for much of the suffering we and the world goes through - just for our 'self' creation.

The answer - there is none - except perhaps to take some time off from being 'me' and a look around at nature just being what it is.


THOUGHTS AROUND BEING JUDGMENTAL

Not to further ruffle some already ruffled feathers around here. But the exchanges here set me thinking about, well, being judgmental. I'd like to put down those thoughts, for what they're worth. Any thoughts any of you folks here have around this would be most welcome.

(And I'm not writing this comment directed at anyone. Nor to call anyone out. When I use examples, I'll do that only to illustrate some point. Just trying to impersonally think this business throught.)

Right. So, first off, we all tend to think that being judgmental is something, well, bad. On some thought, I'm not sure that's very correct. I mean, anyone conscious and cogently thinking will always be seeing, evaluating, judging. And if you forcibly try to stop this process within yourself, you'll end up stopping to learn, stop growing.

So, I think there's two kinds of judging. One kind is, where you judge what you see, and use your judgement to inform and guide your own further conduct. I believe that kind of judging is just fine, in fact essential for growth.

The other kind of judging is, when you judge what you see, and then go out and condemn someone or something. That's the kind of judging we probably have in mind when we say judging's bad. And yes, that is indeed bad, because you don't know all the details of where some other person is coming from, and even if you do, everyone has the freedom to choose their own course of action.

So, to take some concrete examples from here (only by way of illustration, with no personalization intended, and with apologies if my calling out in this manner gives any offense) :

When 777 looks at Brian and does not agree with how he thinks or spends his time, in as much as he uses this criticism to guide his own actions and thoughts, it's just fine. But the moment he tries to influence how Brian should act, he's crossing a line. And of course, in both cases, this has nothing at all to do with whether I personally agree with 777 or if Brian agrees with him.)

(777, no offense meant. I enjoy reading your spiritual take on things. And appreciate your kind heart. Just ruminating about this judgment business here, is all.)

Does that make sense? It does to me, but if I'm getting anything wrong, I'd be happy for any of your folks to point out where you think I might be erring.

There are two exceptions I can think of to this rule (of "internally directed judgment OK but outwardly directed judgment OK wrong) :

The first exception : When you see something exceptionally gross or egregious. When you see a woman harassed sexually, you're justified in judging not just to guide your own behavior but also to guide the offending person's. When you see some person picked on and get beaten up or insulted in a very unbecoming way, it's perfectly fine to speak out.

The other exception : When you're trying to change the world. This is more a 'practical' exception than a strictly ethical one. If you're trying to bring about strict separation of church and state, that's something you can do only by reaching out to others, by directing your judgment outwards as it were. (On the other hand, I realize this gets murky. Using the same argument, the fundamental Christian who wishes to bring sinners back to God may use this same logic to proselytize aggressively. And some fundamental of more sinister stripes in some other parts of the world may use even more direct means to further their own agenda. So yes, this is kind of murky, and this second exception I mention I haven't really thought through fully or have a full answer for.)

So anyway, those were my ten cents, for what they're worth. Basically, my thoughts arising from reading this sequence of comments here, starting with and expanding on my initial reaction of "Wait a moment, sure, judging is wrong, sure, but surely judging is right too in another sense?".

:Quoting Turan:

"'Cognitive Dissonance' where our beliefs, attitudes and behaviours cause us uncomfortable mental conflict and we react to justify our positions."

Radha Soami Turan,

I can appreciate this term you've introduced 'Cognitive Dissonance', yet I've found another term that is only used by RSSB school of thought that that is called: 'positive knowldge'.

It relates to personal experience on a subject like meditation per se. And when it is aquired in the self, then many cognitive doubts or concerns will forever be relieved until one reaches a level where they all are.

There is something beyond the mental plane of thought experienced by a practitioner of the meditation as taught by RSSB that begins to resolve all doubts and concern; which is what they call the inner path, or the inner journey to find our true selves and meaning.
---
:Quoting Appreciative Reader:

"The other exception : When you're trying to change the world.. ...Using the same argument, the fundamental Christian who wishes to bring sinners back to God may use this same logic to proselytize aggressively. And some fundamental of more sinister stripes in some other parts of the world may use even more direct means to further their own agenda. So yes, this is kind of murky, and this second exception I mention I haven't really thought through fully or have a full answer for.)" [full quote omitted]

Radha Soami Appreciative Reader,

Your post makes an excellent take on the difference between one who holds 'a bias' and one who just uses 'reason to discern or makes cautious discriminitive decisions to keep safe and/or personal health'.

I wanted to add that RSSB has some introductionary books which explain basic fundamentals of what is tought. And can be ordered online for very nominal prices (as shipping is included). Books like; A Spiritual Primer , Honest Living , & The Inner Voice .

RSSB books:
http://www.scienceofthesoul.org/category_s/1884.htm

Hi Jen

You wrote
"Not fooling myself that I'm much better than others which is exactly what some satsangis do."

OK, you're not better than others.

But maybe you are just a little better than those deluded Satsangis who are "fooling themselves" that they are better?

Or are you the same as they are?

Hm. Yes you are right I am a little confused.

I'm not sure, maybe I need clarification.

Let me see if I understand...

You are not better than others. But some Satsangis think they are better. So you are no better than they are?

Or maybe you are just a tiny, tiny bit better?

Spencer, when I was a pious, puritanical satsangi, I thought I was much better than the average person who was not one of the chosen few.

So now I leave it to the deluded, (there you go I've said that word!) to decide. Oh, and what was that other word I was accused of, oh yes, ignorant.

There you go, does that make you happy now?

I'm no longer a satsangi so I am no longer deluded and ignorant. Whoopee

Hi Jen:

You wrote:

"when I was a pious, puritanical satsangi, I thought I was much better than the average person who was not one of the chosen few."


It's interesting to read this because humility is so important to effective meditation. You must learn to leave ego and all thoughts at the door. It's nearly impossible, since the husk of ego is part of what we must have to live here. The proud mind is part of the machine we need to function.

So it's always a stripping away every day of that in meditation, as best we can. And then putting some of that same husk back on to function with this personality in this world.

I would say meditation is the practice of shedding layers of ego. How many of those we can shed probably depends upon our own progress in meditation.

Folks think they are special and better for all kinds of reasons. To suggest you no longer hold any such view is quite an accomplishment in its own right, if not a boast.

We all like to feel we are special for one reason or another. I'm not sure that is a bad thing. We should have something worth living for in our lives. Could be our work, or our family, or where we live. Things that feel special, I think people live for that. Perhaps, Jen, it is the knowledge of truth you feel you now possess?

Isn't that rare? Certainly no Satsangi holds that level of truth, right?

What kind of world would it be if we didn't have anything special in our lives, something that makes us think and feel "this is a rare gift...I'm honored to have it?"

That isn't actually ego. It could be gratitude.

It can become ego. Gratitude can turn into ego. That's why we have a Master within. It's not just all "me". There's someone far better than "me" inside. He's the guy I want to bring forth, not that other guy "me"...the persona.


Hi Jen:

One more small point. Since Sant Mat is really about the meditation, it's odd to see you write about how other people (Satsangis) view other people (non-satsangis).

Satsangis are specifically taught not to judge other people at all, not even to try to judge our own progress. Our thoughts are supposed to be on the One, our Master.

Any Satsangi serious about actually following the instructions of their Master avoids all consideration of judging others. Helping others, yes, but not judging anyone, even ourselves.

Meditation reveals so many flaws, so much history, such a storehouse (or a sewer system!).

Any serious progress in meditation, any serious focus on our own thoughts reveals that sewer system. There can be no lasting pride of ego after seeing that. And having to look at it every day, well. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say that following the instructions for me has not added one bit to my pride, and has added quite a bit of shame, which has a bit of time to relinquish to Master.

Jen, I think the person you are arguing with here is possibly a troll, or at least a massive asshole.

But if you believe that life is an illusion you might be way too far from normal than you might like to think.

I wonder if sant mat people pray. Or do they believe in predestination. You can certainly meditate and say you aren't praying and therefore make out as if predestination is true, but you can't be entirely consistent and do either prayer or meditation unless you think you will get a result from it, which makes it a free will choice. And science won't come to the rescue either because materialists that happen to be scientists do not make up 2% of all scientists in the entire world. There are "scientists" that believe in the supernatural. And Sant Mat is a supernatural endeavour. To say otherwise is lying.

People think of fate in the wrong way. They compare life to a fruit machine - you can make a choice only between a grape and a banana. "Ultimately" they say, your choice is superceeded by God, who is the ultimate predestinator.

But life is not analogies. Life is MORE LIKE THIS - a choice between happiness and unhappiness. And ways to make it better and not worse. This is still limited free will, but I submit that it is a difference in choice that can have immense consequences in how you life your day to day life. And how you think about things in general.

The dogma, doctrine, and philosophical ideas of determinism really have no hold where choice exists, even if is it limited.

Dear D. r.

You wrote
"I wonder if sant mat people pray. Or do they believe in predestination."

1 Meditation is worship of the Lord.
2 All science demonstrates that every occurrence had a cause.


- one asshole to another. :)

3. The illusion of choice is just ignorance of our subconscious mind and conditioning, ignorance of our environment, and events in motion we can't see yet, and the influence of these upon us.

Where is this judgemental?
. . . is it forbidden to object :
3+4=9
and
0*1=1

Accused of subjectivity all the time, . .
now my factual objectivity is at stake


Yes in many countries but I thought NOT here

777

D.r - you say "But if you believe that life is an illusion you might be way too far from normal than you might like to think."

Very insightful observation. Some years ago I did the Myers Briggs personality test and recently did it again and came up with the same result. I am an INFJ the rarest of the personalities. Less than one percent of the population. So I agree that I am far from normal and truthfully am very pleased to know it!

If anyone is interested in giving the test a try (I'd love to know what the preachy types on this blog find out about themselves).

"INFJ Personality (“The Advocate”). The INFJ personality type is very rare, making up less than one percent of the population, but they nonetheless leave their mark on the world. As Diplomats, they have an inborn sense of idealism and morality..."

Free Personality Test -

https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test

"The Myers–Briggs Type Indicator is an introspective self-report questionnaire with the purpose of indicating differing psychological preferences in how people perceive the world around them and make decisions"

"The theory of psychological type comes from Swiss psychiatrist Carl G. Jung (1875-1961) who wrote that what appears to be random behaviour is actually the result of differences in the way people prefer to use their mental capacities"

DO SATSANGIS PRAY
Yes they do
Space enough between the 5 words most of the time

DO PRAYERS WORK ?
Yes
This is the same discussion as the Free Will Subject

Sawan advised it many times
St. Paul said : Do it all the time 24/7

The working depends up to which entity You pray

Who really knows God can Pray to the Almighty
If not it is advisable to pray :
-To a spirit which that much power ,. . s/he can offer what is prayed for

-To a living human with the same attributes

What happens :
The high placed individual , . . s/he just recreates the past, so that the novelties
apply -
For them it's a real piece of cake, and only the prayer connected items are touched with a minimum of surrounding phenomenon
( How about KAL in all this is another subject)
Sometimes an effect can be noticed or photographed
and we call it a miracle / serendipity

Btw : Today the vatican changed a lot of rules concerning
their research on miracles
Yes , There are really some holy people in christian culture

Quantum scientists will be the first to agree with this objective reasoning

All other possibilities are first excluded

It is like the King who likes a beggar he met anonymously so much
the next morning he changed the laws .

Serendipities c q Miracles are happenings that can not happen but happen
They surpass all figures actuariens may be able to apply

The explanation is parallel with 'Free Will'

You all agree we have little of it left - we are in a power-degraded state

But by meditation or good connectins (karma) un the real Love impregned authority can be met
and enjoying her/his Love in return
your free will will increase

If you have reached a high stand or your connection has that
you can exercise freedom
but you will not.
First you are to busy with your Abundant Love ( have no time or opportunity ) left
and do zero for your own s sake
BUT great things may happen to those around You anyway

People who pray to you sincerely , you may direct to a higher pay-grade

This RSSB Path is so Lovely
One can only cry from the happiness


777

-

Jen writes,...”If anyone is interested in giving the test a try (I'd love to know what the preachy types on this blog find out about themselves).

Me: I just took the test, and my persnality
Is = Architect = 2% of the population. It said that it is lonely at the top. “They are right.”
That must be what God felt when He created souls.

Jim Sutherland

ARCHITECT PERSONALITY (INTJ, -A/-T)

It’s lonely at the top, and being one of the rarest and most strategically capable personality types, Architects know this all too well. Architects form just two percent of the population, and women of this personality type are especially rare, forming just 0.8% of the population – it is often a challenge for them to find like-minded individuals who are able to keep up with their relentless intellectualism and chess-like maneuvering. People with the Architect personality type are imaginative yet decisive, ambitious yet private, amazingly curious, but they do not squander their energy.

Nothing Can Stop the Right Attitude From Achieving Its Goal

With a natural thirst for knowledge that shows itself early in life, Architects are often given the title of “bookworm” as children. While this may be intended as an insult by their peers, they more than likely identify with it and are even proud of it, greatly enjoying their broad and deep body of knowledge. Architects enjoy sharing what they know as well, confident in their mastery of their chosen subjects, but they prefer to design and execute a brilliant plan within their field rather than share opinions on “uninteresting” distractions like gossip.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
Harlan Ellison
A paradox to most observers, Architects are able to live by glaring contradictions that nonetheless make perfect sense – at least from a purely rational perspective. For example, Architects are simultaneously the most starry-eyed idealists and the bitterest of cynics, a seemingly impossible conflict. But this is because Architect personalities tend to believe that with effort, intelligence and consideration, nothing is impossible, while at the same time they believe that people are too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve those fantastic results. Yet that cynical view of reality is unlikely to stop an interested Architect from achieving a result they believe to be relevant.

Architect (INTJ) personality
In Matters Of Principle, Stand Like a Rock

Architects radiate self-confidence and an aura of mystery, and their insightful observations, original ideas and formidable logic enable them to push change through with sheer willpower and force of personality. At times it will seem that Architects are bent on deconstructing and rebuilding every idea and system they come into contact with, employing a sense of perfectionism and even morality to this work. Anyone who doesn’t have the talent to keep up with Architects’ processes, or worse yet, doesn’t see the point of them, is likely to immediately and permanently lose their respect.

Rules, limitations and traditions are anathema to the Architect personality type – everything should be open to questioning and reevaluation, and if they see a way, Architects will often act unilaterally to enact their technically superior, sometimes insensitive, and almost always unorthodox methods and ideas.
This isn’t to be misunderstood as impulsiveness – Architects will strive to remain rational no matter how attractive the end goal may be, and every idea, whether generated internally or soaked in from the outside world, must pass the ruthless and ever-present “Is this going to work?” filter. This mechanism is applied at all times, to all things and all people, and this is often where Architect personalities run into trouble.

One Reflects More When Traveling Alone

Architects are brilliant and confident in bodies of knowledge they have taken the time to understand, but unfortunately the social contract is unlikely to be one of those subjects. White lies and small talk are hard enough as it is for a type that craves truth and depth, but Architects may go so far as to see many social conventions as downright stupid. Ironically, it is often best for them to remain where they are comfortable – out of the spotlight – where the natural confidence prevalent in Architects as they work with the familiar can serve as its own beacon, attracting people, romantically or otherwise, of similar temperament and interests.

Architects are defined by their tendency to move through life as though it were a giant chess board, pieces constantly shifting with consideration and intelligence, always assessing new tactics, strategies and contingency plans, constantly outmaneuvering their peers in order to maintain control of a situation while maximizing their freedom to move about. This isn’t meant to suggest that Architects act without conscience, but to many other types, Architects’ distaste for acting on emotion can make it seem that way, and it explains why many fictional villains (and misunderstood heroes) are modeled on this personality type.

Architects You May Know


Samantha Power

Christopher Nolan

Colin Powell

Elon Musk

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Vladimir Putin

Michelle Obama

Friedrich Nietzsche

Walter White (“Heisenberg”)
Breaking Bad

Petyr Baelish (“Littlefinger”)
Game of Thrones

Tywin Lannister
Game of Thrones

Gandalf the Grey
The Lord of the Rings

Yennefer of Vengerberg
The Witcher series

Katniss Everdeen
The Hunger Games

Seven of Nine
Star Trek: Voyager

Professor Moriarty
Sherlock Holmes series
2. STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES

Jim: "their relentless intellectualism and chess-like maneuvering" ... so true!

The I N in INFJ means "introverted intuition" so probably the same for INTJ ?

Jim - Introverted Intuition (Ni) - By Dr A J Drenth

https://personalityjunkie.com/10/introverted-intuition-ni/

As an “ Architect “,....its no wonder I have always never “ fit in” any where, in THIS world! Being in the top 2% of earthlings, I will no longer feel personally insulted, when shit bombed by the masses.

Interestingly, according to Free Masons, God is referred to as:

THE GREAT ARCHITECT,.......but I am not a Mason.

Jim Sutherland

Count me as one of the masses, please.

Spencer, I think the above comment by D.r is correct, you are displaying troll like behaviour.

Quite sad really for a satsangi to be so full of venom :(

Jen - I don't think Spencer is trolling - it's more that his thinking and writing is doctrinaire. It's the usual characteristic of someone who lives in certainty of their beliefs.
Once Babaji assured somebody that he didn't mind his constant questioning. He said, "Better a man with doubts than one who lives in an illusion of faith".
Basically I think Spencer is a good guy and is well meaning. A churchless person however doesn't really need someone attempting to convince them of their 'error' of churchlessness.

Thanks pooh bear for your comment. I have already decided not to continue with the discussion. After all, we are all entitled to our own ideas and feelings. Cheers :)

:Quoting 777:

"and do zero for your own s sake"

Interesting. This reminds me of when I was a seeker. I was seeking to learn the Surat Shabd Yoga (or sehaj yoga). In 1998 my first lead was a powerful yogi who taugh he was, or had made his mind 0 (zero). Or at least he claimed to such divine humility.

But when I finally saw him in person, I found out by one of his advanced disciples who had also at first saught the same 'sehaj yoga'. From her that he told her that sehaj yoga no longer existed and now today his science of meditation was a replacement. She told me that she questioned no further and had been with him and his teachings ever since.

This yogi taught something he termed: 'Shabd Guru'.

https://www.3ho.org/kundalini-yoga/shabad-guru/quantum-technology-sound

When I finally sorted through the many self proclaimed Masters and found Baba Ji with the exact sehaj yoga as discribed by great Hazur Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj. I felt so bad for that woman, who had been misled by this man with persuasive authority on a level with the Pope himself.

Adi Granth
This sais Nanak, The Lowliest of the lowly
Sacrifice I am unto Thou, Oh Holy

Swami Ji Set Shiv :
lower than me, You cannot find, Oh Lord
and even saying this is so hypocrite, . .

I seem to be a messenger
if you like it or not

stupid choice

777


-

""" raises serious spiritual questions """

Mundane questions

Spiritual is that Sawan shielded my wife off
with His Light & Love
when she was raped , . . next burned alive.


Jen, you wrote

"Spencer, I think the above comment by D.r is correct, you are displaying troll like behaviour."

I apologize for being wordy and opinionated. But I do not apologize for holding an opinion different from yours.

Jen, when I said that the transformational element is in you, that does not mean I am telling you to worship Maharaji. I am sharing something I've found to be true for me, and offering that to you. You don't need a Dera or a Master, or a belief in divinity to realize the truth of this for yourself.

I am suggesting, even simply from a purely psychological view, that this is where you will find that place where all happiness comes from : inside you. But further, harboring any judgments interferes with that.

It doesn't depend on any spirituality at all.

To you, this is preachy.

To me, seeing my fellow human beings calling people assholes or deluded, trolls, etc strikes me as a negative quality that by indulging, might feel good momentarily, but which gets in the way of personal happiness. It isn't offering anything of personal value to a peer, nor is it acknowledging a different perspective.

Feeling superior to others, and by doing so focusing on a judgement of others can only interfere with our own happiness, including ones meditation.

This is offering my best advice to someone who had difficulty with the path, which to me means their meditation.

It can't be a complaint about Satsangis, Jen, because they are no different from any other members of any organization : humanity for better or worse.

Because the path has also presented challenges to me in terms of my practice of meditation, but they all turned out to be me.

And overcoming each opened a new Vista, unlocked another level of peace and understanding.

How can one meditate carrying any opinion about other people, whether it is an opinion that non Satsangis are inferior or that Satsangis are inferior?

To me that is the same pathology.

Because that interferes with that internal environment necessary for happiness and meditation.

And that is the spirit in which my comments are intended.

From one peer to another.

I consider you and D. r. as equals.

How you take it, what it becomes in your heart or anyone else's is their own environment.

Becoming less preachy is one of my own challenges, yes.

Somehow it never stops me from speaking my heart.

I consider that a strength, even if I am mediocre in expression.

Spencer wrote,...”Becoming less preachy is one of my own challenges, yes.

Somehow it never stops me from speaking my heart.

I consider that a strength, even if I am mediocre in expression.”

Me: “It pleased God by the foolinshess of PREACHING to save them that believe.”
1 Corinthians 1:21

“ How shall they hear with out a PREACHER?” Romans 10:14

“God, in due times, has manifested His Word through PREACHING.” Titus 1:3

Jim Sutherland


Hi Jim!

You are so very sweet in your compassionate reply, sir.

Thank you.

Spence

Dear Happy Spencer

I m one of the big appreciators of your comments of course.
You have remarkable restraint

Some forget that many thousands enjoy you too,
where a diminishing 8 persons still say that 3 + 6 is twelve

Go one pointing to what's important to be happy

777

ps
Pope Francis now considers it a big sin to spread untruth or sensation on the web
Wish he had said that on voting climate destroyers

I have a question - a genuine question! I do not wish to be slapped down by anyone as I am seeking an answer :

Why does this Master get angry when someone asks him a question which crosses the line? In that I mean - a seeker seeking confirmation that he is on the right path or so. Or someone asking him - if he could help him find a marriage match. Oh he does fix people up only if you are famous - that’s a fact. The responses are demeaning and probably put the person asking into a deeper confusion and possibly depression. Is that Love?

Anyway why does God get angry - I thought he was Love!!!!!!! Let’s get answering folks - hopefully you can come up with better responses than - he is washing away the sins, he knows best, do your mediation and don’t question (people who say this have not usually see anything) ah and my favourite - it’s your karma. Who here has seen karma? Would she be featured in Sports Illiustrated? I am digressing. But back to he original question????

Hi Arjun:

I can only give youtwo rationales that I have found personally to be true and which are reflected in the literature of the saints.
1. The potter beats the clay on the outside as He supports it from within.
2. The anger of a saint is like hot water...it still puts out the fire.

When I asked my question a few years ago, Baba Ji said "The mind is very limited...."

I took that a little personally. But His next remark was so powerful, I had to put my feelings aside: "When the whole universe depends upon the Lord every moment for it's existence, where is this talk of growing 'dependency'?"

Was that anger, or a gift? I thought I'd been handed a great treasure. I had confirmation from this great soul that my prayer and submission in meditation of all my difficulties throughout the day to the Lord was in fact the actual functioning of the creation already! I was only just becoming aware of it in meditation. And so I could begin to enjoy it!

Never despair of the criticism of a Saint. It is all love.

Hi Jim!

You wrote:

“It pleased God by the foolinshess of PREACHING to save them that believe.”
1 Corinthians 1:21

This reminded me of another quote from 1 Corninthians 15:

" It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
1 Corinthians 15: 44

The actual Greek term used for "natural body" is Soma Psyche!

We have a layer or body of "mind" in which we live, and then we leave that for the body in "Spirit".

Paul distinguishes not the physical body, in this passage, but the difference between mind and spirit.


Ok - Spencer I get what you wright . Yes the Mind is limited and one does not need to attend MIT or Princeton to understand that.

And yes we kind of know that everything radiates from the Lord - so goes the theory as I have no evidence of it. If I told you my story and to the lengths I have gone to keep a moral life you would be astounded. But all I am getting is pain. And this pain, news flash, is pushing me away from even believing in God! Let alone a man -GIHF!

Yes I know I may have done some really bad things in my previous lives, but I will tell you something for nothing: You sure ain't given any support in the this life where you are trying your best!!! If there are previous lives- most con men can play all tricks with others of a weaker mind by talking about this!

And I would not trust a satsanghi as far as you could throw them ! And that's from my own experience! So no support there. So we are back t my original question!

Hi Arjuna
You wrote

"Ok - Spencer I get what you wright . Yes the Mind is limited and one does not need to attend MIT or Princeton to understand that."

The problem is that this same mind is the only vehicle you have to function in this world, even to evaluate whom and what to believe.

The whole system is set up for our failure. It's not just the X files. It's all the files, A to Z, the entire creation and our place in it is a huge disaster from the point of view of any compassion or justice. Filled with corruption.

You wrote

"And yes we kind of know that everything radiates from the Lord - so goes the theory as I have no evidence of it."

There may be a way out, but it always starts with the issue of whom to believe. Yes we are easily deluded.

Let me suggest that if there is a way, it must be inside yourself. If God really exists he or she must be inside, or else, if he or she is only outside, that can't be God.

You wrote
" If I told you my story and to the lengths I have gone to keep a moral life you would be astounded. But all I am getting is pain. And this pain, news flash, is pushing me away from even believing in God! Let alone a man -GIHF!"

You don't have to believe in anything. Is that even in your hands? If sounds like you haven't found much to believe in.

You don't have to believe in anyone or anything. But if you find something to believe in, it helps get through the pain.

You wrote

" Yes I know I may have done some really bad things in my previous lives,"

Join the club. We're all a mixed bag here.

You wrote
"but I will tell you something for nothing: You sure ain't given any support in the this life where you are trying your best!!!"

That depends. Some are born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Others are born without a mouth.

It helps putting things into a balanced picture.

You wrote

" If there are previous lives- most con men can play all tricks with others of a weaker mind by talking about this!"

Whatever you did before, some of that stands before you, in the mirror, and around you. That's where you are, this is what you have to work with. The past is gone now.

You wrote

" And I would not trust a satsanghi as far as you could throw them ! And that's from my own experience! So no support there. So we are back t my original question!"

Is it love if the Master is short with someone? Yes, it's tough love.

Look at the football game. Look at training. The highest paid athletes get yelled at the most, and by several coaches. And the highest paid coaches get fired often. Expectations are higher for them.

They don't shrink. They have no question they are great and bound for more. That keeps them going.

Find that. It's in you.

Spencer. I have found it hard to believe in anyone these says - as everyone I loved is dead.

I remember master saying at Haynes in 2005 that the Lord gives s relationships here so we can learn to love etc.

I walked out thinking - are you for real! Mine are dead! Get dead. Its not like Master is going to be waiting for me when I get home to an empty house to ask me how was my day! That is why I lost faith! Don't get me wrong the world believes e to be a good ,an! But to what end Spencer????

I like you Spencer- you have engaged my interest and mind with your responses- all the rest were noise.

Arjuna, when I'm having a tough time I always remind myself that so many people are suffering so much more than I am. We just have to keep on keeping on, doing the best we can.

This is the full story of what happened to Louise and Barry Berman...

http://www.laweekly.com/news/a-1986-double-murder-cold-case-in-the-mojave-desert-is-finally-unraveling-5425603

Arguna, .....it appears you have given up on every thing you know about, regarding religions, masters, Sant Mat, or what ever.

So, please allow me to reach out to you, ( no pressure ) to offer you another possible consideration you may not yet have explored.

I don’t know what Gender or age you are, so can’t give any specific counseling. But as an American, our parents or teachers to not pick our Mates for us. We find our own, based on Chemistry and attraction, and the Male “Courts” the female, until finding the Prize that satisfies the curiosities and senses, consumating in taking Marriage Vows, “to have and to hold, in sickness and in health, until death do us part.” It doesn’t always work, but considering it did for me, and I have been married to my one and only Bride (that I found, courted, and married ) for the last 56 years, I think my way has proven more successful than an arranged marriage forced up on a couple that only had sex in common.

Why would you let, or allow some stranger like Gurnder to pick or arrange Mate for you?

Any way, gettng back to another possibility for you, if you are still open minded enough to take a look at a Christian Prospective of Salvation by Faith, take a look at my Master’s Degree Thesis way back in 1983 which is still vald today, if you consder that the same Christ that was in the man Jesus, is still in some other Master today, and can still set you Free the same way Christ set me free in 1977 by believng in Him!

Considering you said you don’t trust any Satsangis or Gurinder, what have you got to loose?

Read my Thesis on my blog n Eternal Security, with out bias, and see how you feel. Start with the Introduction, and word forward clicking the cntinudnsextions at the bottom of each post.

Don’t be shy to,sak,qestins fmyou have any, or critique.

http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2006/08/eternal-security-thesis-introduction.html

Jim Sutherland

At Jen - thank you and I am lost for words with the link you sent. So sad. And yes - I guess you are right- we must just do the best we can.

@ Jim. Wow you can write man. so here is a bit about I am male and in my 40s. And considered pretty tough (think uniform) and in mind. Anyways let me read your link tomorrow and I will get back to you.

PS I don't want Gurinder to fix me up as that is something I have someone - I think! But he is a stranger and nothing more to me!

Arjuna, ......good to know you are a tough 40ish male.

I can tell you by much experience, the tougher and badder the Marked Elect have been, before they came to the Knowledge of the Grace of God, is the more powerful as a Witness for God’s Salvation they will be, after accepting Salvation by Grace!

I also was not any one that resembled even a hint of spirituality, until I reached age 35 , and was saved by Grace after reading parts of a Bible left in a Hotel Room. I had been drinking alcohol, for several days, and was certainly not right with God at that time! ( my personal story is shared in another post in my blog, as part of my Seminary Doctoral Theses after I became Ordained to Preach The Gospel of Christ)

After that encounter at age 35 with Christ, my life changed rapidly. I quit drinking alcohol, and smoking and using tobacco, and have never returned to either to this day.

The Lord doesn’t catch clean fish. He already has those. ( The Marked Elect. ) he first catches his fish, and then cleans them up, as he did me! ( So there is plenty of Hope and Grace left for you. God’s Grace is never tattooed out side our bodies for others to see. It is tattooed on our hearts, inside, where it can be found by following the Call of The Holy Spirit,...i.e. The Word, the Shabd! )

I continued eating meat until age 45 , until I was Initiated in to Sant Mat.

Charan Singh became the Physical image of Christ for me, that represented the Jesus man that was the Living Master of Christ for the Marked Elect that God The Father marked to go to Jesus for Salvation. I accepted Christ, that day when I was 35, but never met the man Jesus who had Christ in him, until I met Charan.

It might sound complicated right now, but its really simple, If you happen to be one of the Marked Elect who has not yet been led to the Living Master you are marked for to show you how to meet Christ within your own Temple, i.e. body, and start your Journey to return back Home!

Read my blog slowly, and carefully, letting what you read sink in, and ask God if any of it might be used for your own !

It very well could change your life,....for the better.

Jim Sutherland

Hi Arjuna

You wrote

"Its not like Master is going to be waiting for me when I get home to an empty house to ask me how was my day! That is why I lost faith! Don't get me wrong the world believes e to be a good ,an! But to what end Spencer????"

Grief is its own process, and proceeds in its own time and stages. Loss that can never be replaced. And the stages of anger, denial, depression, they all take their own time. Even compulsion. Even obsession. Sometimes it takes years. And if it is the loss of a loved one, do we ever get over it? We learn to function. We learn to survive. At some point we re-emerge. Life is incredibly fragile. We are paper bags destroyed by a few drops of water. It is incredibly cruel that love is thus.

But if you remember that love, if you can feel that love then you know she is inside of you. Hope is there. Your lost love still lives inside of you. And now you must carry on for both of you, must shoulder the duty to live happily for both of you. As she would have wanted.

Jim, I couldn't locate your blog post with your personal testimony so I will ask here. How did you go from a born again Christian to Sant Mat? That is quite a change, no?

You appear to have been something of a Calvinist. All that stuff about being marked through election and predestination. I know what this means also, to some extent. For I had an experience of the Holy Spirit, God, whatever you want to call it. You get intuitive convictions about certain things, experiences that are hard to put into words. One of which is the feeling that God marked you from birth and chose you, you didn't chose God.

I do, however, believe in free will. I mean, you have to make the CHOICE to believe in and accept Christ, right? I never did this - God came to me when I was reading the Bible, about 3 years ago. What is the point of praying if God chooses when and where to come into your life? It is a thoroughly confusing doctrine and there's no doubt that Catholics and Protestants have a hard time reconciling it all.

I had actually been following Yogananda's teachings and meditating for 14 years before I had this experience with Jesus and the Bible. And then what to make of demonic attacks, especially when God chooses you to come under his radar? They increase if you try to think about Jesus and come to him. I never got "saved" though I prayed many times, very deeply since that time. Is there a point to praying? Isn't believing in Jesus one of the most extremely difficult thing a person could do? Let's not take this issue of believing lightly - it seems to me to be incredibly difficult if not impossible. The rational mind intervenes with doubts. Is it possible to believe all the miracle stories in the Bible? Why do Christians bicker and differ over doctrines? I have seen some very angry, rabid preachers putting down other Christians. It doesn't interest me very much and is worthy to be ignored. Still, why so much confusion? God is not supposed to be the author of confusion.

To D.r. ( and Arjuna )

Brian has closed the doorless door to preachless preaching in his Churchless Church in spite of it being the Christless Christmas Season of Atheist Free Speach.

Its his blog, so I apologize for breaking his Rules.

D.r., you may PM me, if you can’t find your answers on my blog to any question you have, but I can’t imagine how I could tell you much of any thing new that I have not already said on my blog, some where or other, that would answer every possible conceived question of any seeker interested in Christ.

The closest I posted of my personal Testimony is in Part One of my Doctoral Thesis section of the Tongues Controversy. You may find it here,......if Brian allows this last post on preach-less preaching. ( it isn’t preaching, actually, it is Teaching. )

http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2006/08/tongues-thesis-part-1-by-eternal-flame.html

As for commg to Sant Mat from Christianity, it was not that big a transition, considering that the Golden Tread of Salvation by Grace is threaded thru every Religion.

Jim Sutherland


Jim, I read through the tongues posts on your blog but didn't see anything about you transitioning to Sant Mat. I don't want to sound rude but I don't have enough time to go through all the blog posts you made just to find that information, especially when I can ask you here (or by PM somehow)

On the issue of tongues, I heard someone speaking in tongues doing deliverance ministry and it sounded to me like about 6 different languages were being spoken. It didn't sound like gibberish speaking at all. But let's just say that it was real. Well, why would this be necessary instead of speaking in English?

On your conversion experience, it sounds like you simply read through the Bible and suddenly found you were born again. Is that right? I mean, did you make any decision to go to Christ or were you simply just reading the Bible? My own experience is that I was simply just reading the Bible and then the words lit up to my vision and became "alive" to me. It was like the words on the page became luminous and I somehow intuitively understood them different to an intellectual understanding.

D.r.,......I wrote the Tongues Theses in 1984 and never was initiated by Charan unfil 1990.so no wonder you couldn’t find my conversion to Sant Mat there. It isn’t on my blog. Only my conversion to Christianity, i.e. Born Again. I actually got on my knees in the Hotel Room and asked Christ to come in to my life, and take it over.

As for the Tongues Theses, I had not yet discovered Reincarnation and Karma. I now believe that Tongues are morsels of languages spoken in past lives, that surface, during Prayer. Mine sounds like ..........a dozen tribes of Native American Indians trying to speak Vietnamese! 😇

Jim Sutherland

Thanks all of you tried to help. I was merely after an answer- in a nutshell. How do I found out if this Mater is real. I just want to worship the Lord. But I do fear that Satan is no weak power and he will send many to guide us into his nice and burning arms.

I can not be doing with too much intellectual stuff. Over and out

Hi Arjuna

Very interesting, and in ways touching. And it raises some questions.

You wrote
"How do I found out if this Mater is real. I just want to worship the Lord."

This thread started with an article about two Satsangis who were murdered, and Brian's rhetorical argument that this proves Sant Mat is not real.

You mentioned hearing Baba Ji speak about they purpose of relationships, to teach us love. But because you had encountered personal loss and felt alone, his words angered you and seemed insensitive.

Death is all around us. No protection from it.

Some respond to death clinging in fear more tightly to their faith.

Others shout in anger that death, especially of a loved one, proves there is no God.

I don't know if anyone can answer your question about whether Baba Ji is the Lord in the flesh to your satisfaction. You have your doubts.

So you haven't confirmed it's a "no" or a "yes?"

But why would that stop you from prayer, if you want to believe in God?

If you want to believe, take that to God in prayer. We are limited beings and can't know. So it's His job to cure our doubts, if we are sincere.

And if you don't really believe and see no reason to, then nothing holds you.

There is no right answer. Just what is right for you.

There will be more tragic deaths. Whose death isn't?

You could become more frightened or more angry, more resigned, or more inspired. It's all about what's inside you.

And the question of why may go unanswered for a very long time.

But you could find an answer, or a purpose, that makes an "answer" unnecessary.

Whoever or whatever God is, it's likely He or She won't be exactly what you want them to be. Like most relationships in the beginning.


@ Spencer. If Babaji initiated me - why would doubts appear in my mind? Surely He would have known I would be full of doubts. It is not intentional that I have these doubts but they appeared.

@ Spencer - I was not insensitive when Master spoke about relationships but the thought popped into my mind that WTF. You killed all I had so how the four camels and a giraffe do you expect me to learn and succeed if there is only emptiness. This by the way takes one away from sitting down. I know that I am not Judah Ben-Hur! Its a bit like encouraging some one and then drop kicking them every time they try and get up - but Newsflash- its all very nice saying you become stronger !!! You also become DAMAGED! And yes I know we are all DAMAGED. I hope you get what I am getting at!

PS that scene in Ben Hur when Judah is Thirsty and on the floor with the Romans refusing him water is so Beautiful. Christ appears and gives Judah water from his own Hands. I would love the Lord to help me thus.

@ Brian Hines- Sorry this is not the thread one should be writing this topic. Forgive me.

Arjuna,

I just had an understanding that here I am on this blog being anti Sant Mat and then suddenly realising that I'm very thankful for following this spiritual path since I was 23 years old (next year after my birthday that will be 50 years).

I am very grateful that I am still a strict vegetarian, don't drink alcohol or do drugs and also live a moral life. This is very important if there is such a thing as reincarnation and karma.

I don't care anymore if Gurinder is just a figurehead, and also maybe Charan. Its a journey and we all change along the way. The self realisation that we think we are special and one of the chosen ones is all about ego and we can just give that away and just be grateful for what we have.

Just my thoughts. Good luck.

@ Jen - thank you and you sound like a woman who has strength and sussed things out😀

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