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September 01, 2017

Comments

Hi Brian!

Nice effort to distinguish physical, scientific "fact" from internal, subjective experience.

It's a bit more complicated, but you boil down nicely the basic border line between information we can transfer to each other that has some degree of external verifiability, from that knowledge that cannot be transferred because there is no external basis for verification.

Where it gets tricky is drawing objective conclusions based on any evidence at all, or lack thereof, and the quality of that evidence.

Gravity has not been detected. We only know it exists as a concept created to describe an event we all can witness for ourselves. But we can measure its effects as well as witness it with our senses.

If dozens of mystics report hearing the same sequence of sounds, and the same sequence of visual stimuli, and the overwhelming bliss of that experience, and they write independently over centuries, you have corroborated independent testimony.

If they give you the formula for duplicating that experience for yourself, they provide the means to test the factual reality of that internal experience. So for example, hearing the incredible big bell, feeling your limbs go numb, feeling as if you are being drawn up into an accelerated movement, like an elevator or a roller coaster, seeing the sun, the moon, the stars from space, hurling towards a start that explodes, and rising through the very center of that explosion, etc, etc... All the while experiencing extreme bliss and joy. These are not physical events. Your body is still sitting in one place. But these are not imagination. You might call them hallucinations. But they are reliable, repeatable events.. Not constructed under your conscious will, but you can go there to experience them under your conscious effort. They reflect, like the falling of an object to earth, something physical. Like gravity, the reality behind that witness of a falling object, is another thing altogether.

If a dozen LSD veterans discuss similar experiences of changing colors, melting walls, but some report terror while others report bliss, you also have corroborated testimony with many similar elements.

But most understand that one is a physical reality and the other is a human experience. The two are not the same.

But both, especially corroborated by independent testimony, are realities. One is a real physical reality and other an experiential reality.

If fifty Taylor Swift fans gush over the blissful experience they have had at her concert, and fifty others say "meh", that doesn't change the fact that Taylor was on stage, was singing. But the internal experience and conditioning of those fans alters their experience of that very real event.

So, for internal corroborated experience something physical is there. But all you can transfer is the witnessed account.

Even LSD hallucinations reflect a physical event... The effect of a specific drug upon the brain's functioning, and the different experience of altered sensory perception this creates.

LSD hallucinatory experiences are different from the effects of other drugs, such as alcohol, Coffee, Marijuana, amphetamines, tranquilizers, etc. The subjective experience of tranquilizers is consistently different from reports of LSD experiences, and clinical trials utilize that reported experience of users reliably, scientifically, to help catalog the effects of these drugs.

For anyone to claim that the experiences from these drugs are merely subjective and therefore "not real" falsely ignores the physical reality behind them.

That, I believe, is the error of your dichotomy.

Great post Brian. Thank you.
Again this is a subjective experience of mine after reading this post.
I will share my personal experience- I grew up in Greek orthodox religion and I used to visit greek monasteries when I lived in Greece.
A few monks or nuns would have astral projections experiences, they would appear to their disciples in their prayers or visions and would perform miracles from distance even after their transition from physical realm.
These phenomena were mostly happening to disciples or believers that had strong , absolute faith in their master or saint (in greek orthodox religion)
I came to USA and I was initiated , had many personal, subjective experiences during meditation.
3 years after initiation came to realize that the only factor in common of these experiences is the human brain and the human nature --the way our brain is wired as human beings.
Faith, fasting, meditation, devotion,isolation are some of common factors of these experiences in all spiritual and religion experiences.
Again , I am still searching and I am opened to the fact that must be something more powerful or beyond this physical realm .
As you mentioned the Iphone function , I can mention the Ultrasound waves and US machine. We do not see the Sound waves of Ultrasound machine, the human ear is unable to perceive those sound waves in that frequency. Still they exist and we are able to diagnose different diseases through Ultrasound technology today.
Most of my patients that have positive attitudes, faith in God ,good social support , recover faster from their illnesses or deal with them in more efficient and less traumatic psychological ways.
I am sure the science will be able to discover more regarding these phenomena that human body senses and perceptions are not aware today.
I think Knowledge is Power , the more you know and read , the less you become absolute and limited. The more knowledge we have in Neuroscience, the more explanations we will find regarding these phenomena.
Again , I am not trying to convince anyone here in this blog, this is my personal opinion and experience. I do absolutely enjoy the variety of all these posts and opinions.
I think at the end what matters is the way we live our life. Peace with our fears, insecurities and our
Impermanence as human beings is what matters the most , independently of our country, beliefs and our different experiences. Our beliefs in different spiritual practices give answer and satisfy our inner intelligence or Unawareness.
Being opened minded and aware of the objective scientific facts and research it helps and validates subjective experiences.
Thank you for this blog, it has helped me personally to see a different view of my beliefs and subjective experiences .
I think it helped me to expand my knowledge and awareness.

The most compelling reason for pursuing the subjective reality of mystics is " the possibility of dying in sleep or worse the possibility of dying in a dream " Sufi's call the state of mystic as baqa , means a mystic does not die after physical death . If sleep and nightmares are subjective , the state of mystics can be at least as subjective as common man's nightmares. How many people are ready to sacrifice their wants /desires/intentions /feelings for attainment of mystic state ??
Most of the Sufi mystics / Majzubs attain the state of trance after permanent damage to their worldly personality. Sufi's say nafs / mind can not be controlled by comfort / pleasures so they undergo penance to control their nafs. Each level of self-mortification raises their control over mind to a state higher than previous state called stations in Sufism. Ascetic practices which people think as useless acts have great spiritual dimensions of control over mind / body / desires. Do a simple experiment , live alone for 1 month without any relative near you , your consciousness will never be the same as it was before living alone.

I thought the whole point of meditating was to get really, really high, in a sort of "it feels good, man" kind of way. If the experience was subjectively imaginary or objectively real, who cares? All you need to know is that you can have that experience which takes you above all of the astral and causal heavens out there.

""" Objective reality seemingly should come with some objective attributes, even if these are far removed from everyday physical reality. """

I gave it
in one of my first comments,
with the objective location
and you didn't even try to check that


777

-

Brian - what are your thoughts on Dark matter and Dark energy? Something is there but what do you think it is?

Or should we ask Master? That would be an interesting question.

I think I've taken the red pill...

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo

TED Talk / Published on Jul 18, 2017 (17 mins)

“We are all hallucinating, all the time, including right now. It’s just that when we agree about our hallucinations we call that reality”

Meditation is a subjective experience.

It has no connection to any physical reality.

Many disciples see Gurinder morph into Charan.

but that does not mean it really happened?

It just means they all hallucinated it.

They are good hallucinators after years of practice.

Has anyone seen Gurinder Morph into Kirpal Singh?

No. Why not? Because that doesn't make sense.

Yet deluded disciples think that because 20 of them
saw it - it really happened.

But what is "really"?

You mean if I recorded the satsang, it would be visible
on the movie?

Clearly not - in which case - it's not real.

It's an hallucination.

Here is an eight year old girl doing magic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrbsHoydkD0

You can't explain HOW she does it

unless you are a magician, in which case it's easy.

Magicians have trade secrets.

so do cult leaders.

people will believe what they want to believe.

Hi Osho
I get what you are saying. Physical reality and psychological reality are different. But both are real in the sense that they are connected, via the brain, to a real experience.

Since the practice of meditation is healthy for the brain and improves cognition, as well as becomes a joyous experience, as clinical research over several decades, and anecdotal witness over several millennia shows it does, then it is worth some consideration.

Something real, and physical, is happening through various meditation practices, and all the research there is proves it is healthy for most people.

The internal experiences are "real" to the extent of the experience. I really did see Baba Ji morph into Maharaji, but I also knew, as I wrote before, that even with all the details of skin color variations, wrinkles and subtle movement, that this had to be a vision, and a personal one. I was fully awake and able to question and observe the experience dispassionately, and fully able to enjoy it as it was happening. I took it as a personal gift and never confused it with physical reality. I presumed it was a vision for me. But for me it was real.

Those are "real" subjective experiences and worthy of consideration.

By dismissing the work of the mind and internal experience you are in denial of one very basic and important truth. Your internal psychology is the only world you know and will ever know. Your life is lived in that home, and it has been so for your entire life, and will likely be so for the rest.

The physical world is only seen and heard and felt from the packages delivered through the doorway of your senses into, here it comes, you brain. You live inside that. And those sensory messages are modified by your brain before you see them. This is where you live, and getting to know that internal place, making it healthier and stronger, is always a good and responsible thing.

In Sufi tariqat after practicing khalwa/seclusion ; tazkia e nafs / control over sense organs and taqwa/righteousness the Kashf/ illumination of heart experienced is accompanied by rise in body temperature , intense ecstasy ,loss of sleep for days together. If person is strong willed he can enter trance/hal leave the mortal body behind to enter deathless world of Noor/Divine light. No physical person is present there , only cosy warm Noor of God. Even Jesus exists as Noor.

Some say there is no objective reality, nor any subjective reality either. Neither exits. When all relativities (subject and object) are seen as non-existent, nothing remains to be understood.

the birds have vanished into the sky
as the last cloud drains away
we sit together, the mountain and me
until only the mountain remains

and then the mountain vanishes too

Uh vauu vinny did you just sent some pseudo cultic imaginary stuff..you just switched from sant mat to other stuff....like all converts do...you guys switch from one path or view to another but your mind stays the same unchanged...

Subjective means its personal to you. It cannot be proven. Like having a dream. It's your dream. It has no objective reality.

Objective is different - it can be proven.

All religions (like RSSB) are subjective.

The science of the soul is a nonsense term. Soul is subjective. There cannot be a science to it.

So you believers on here are deluded. Trying to mix science and objectivity into something that is subjective.

Subjective cannot be proven because there is nothing to prove.

If you had an acid trip and saw unicorns - its personal to you and doesn't mean unicorns exist. Not even if 100 people took acid and saw unicorns.

Dear Spence you seem to think if a lot of people saw the radiant form it means is it real. it's not. just means there are 100 deluded people.

RS Sceptic:

You wrote:

"Dear Spence you seem to think if a lot of people saw the radiant form it means is it real. it's not. just means there are 100 deluded people."

Whether they are deluded, or whether they experience this reality at a level you cannot is a matter of scientific and personal inquiry. A dark room is not an empty room to a scientist. Only to a cynic.

That room that remains dark to you is simply unexplored.

Rather than shout at the darkness, or dismiss it as "nothing", when even the hard sciences have proven over several decades something real is actually there, try to adopt at least the curiousity, honesty and integrity of those scientists at Yale and Harvard, and conduct your own investigations.

A cynic proclaims "This room has nothing in it!"

A dreamer says "I see flashes of light, I see the future. I see my highest hopes.".

A scientist takes their flashlight and enters.

And then, they see it isn't a room. It is a world, and even more, the entire creation., Indeed several. It does include their dreams. And all the experiences of a long ago past that have fed those dreams. And every reality they ever knew, and realities they have never known, except very, very long ago.

When you see the Radiant Form for yourself, you will be in a better position to question it, to understand it, to test its reality for you, and its connection, separate from you, to this creation.

100 People, upright people, honest people, who saw Baba Ji Morph into Maharaj and independently reported it, not knowing the others had also done so, saw something real. They saw a real vision given to them.

But to see that Radiant form, either within or here in this physical world, for that you must submit as a scientist, and keeping your awareness wide open, set aside pre-concieved notions long enough to conduct the work.

Put aside your limited opinions about the darkness you have yet to pierce, Sceptic.

Because an individual unwilling to conduct their own investigation, and see for themselves these things, to evaluate them, is no longer a sceptic. They are merely a cynic.

Without investigation, without acknowledging the hard sciences version of Meditation, and the results, you are merely a cynic. Though in truth you are far more, Sceptic. You have chosen to adopt that limited position.

For even the meditation research that can only measure the effects on the body proves this is a real, and a healthy process. It helps repair DNA! It improves physical and cognitive functioning. It even strengthens the physical health of the brain!

But if real, hard science is impossible for your cynical persona to acknowledge, then of coarse, investigating for yourself that mystic experience that is the aim and natural outcome of extensive practice of meditation, is out of the question.

You cannot enter today. You have the wrong attitude. Try to leave behind your cynic mask for a little while. Enter as a child into the practice, open minded, hopeful. Adopt another identity, that of investigator honoring the anecdotal reports and the hard science, and unwilling to rest until they have confirmed the Truth of these things for themselves.

If it is a delusion, you will have to experience it for yourself first hand, before you can conclusively, scientifically confirm that it is not anything else.

For concluding it must be delusion is unscientific. Try coming up with a few different hypotheses first, and test them.

Tomorrow, you may awaken with a different attitude. One of hope in things as yet unseen, that they may be. Or that they may be something else, but whatever that is, you will find it for yourself.


That is the entire attitude of a scientist. That through their discisplined, controlled efforts, new things will be uncovered for your first hand witness, using the clean and functional instruments under tight control in your own lab.

All you can do playing the cynic, in your prison, is to point your finger at those wandering about outside and shout "You are living in illusion! I am living in the truth."

Hardly.

The truth is expensive, Sceptic. But wonderful.

It's not for lazy minds unwilling to explore, unwilling to suspend disbelieve long enough to experiment. Unwilling to conduct a very disciplined inquiry in a very controlled laboratory within themselves. But they could....Maybe one day they will.

It does require an investigative attitude, a scientific attitude.

All new ideas are unproven, Sceptic. They require the hopeful faith of a scientist. The limited, conditional faith that says "It might be true. It's worth testing. And so long as it remains unproven, I can conclude it IS true, or it IS false, only if I conduct that investigation first hand."

RS Sceptic, The discovery that light operates in waves and particle forms, that energy and matter are forms of one another, was not a recent discovery because human beings became smarter.

Gravity wasn't born with Newton.

The world has always been round, and never was flat, sceptic.

So why did it take so many, many thousands of years for these to become common truths?

Scientific investigation is not the only answer. It was that power of science, in gradual steps, to overcome cynical beliefs that were simply ignorant.


"Stronger than all the armies, is an idea whose time has come."
-Victor Hugo

Please keep up.

Dear Spencer,

let me ask you, do you believe in the claims of islam?

If your answer is NO,

Then you are sceptic as far as islam is concerned.

Have you conducted an scientific enquiry into Islam.

most likely not.

Yet islam claims science it on it's side.

Doesn't make it true.

RSSB, Islam, christianity, Buddhism are all religions.

They are not a science.

You are not a scientist.

You are convinced of the truth of RSSB. That's all.

You don't even know for yourself that it is truth.

You are trying to conduct the experiment.

What experiment? Meditating is not a scientific experiment
any more than getting high on drugs is.

99.9999% of the world has not even heard of a "Radiant Form"

It is a belief. There is nothing scientific about it.

Just because it is not called "science of the soul"
doesn't make it a science.

A lot of people believe in ghosts. Doesn't make it true.

Tell me - is there any proof that the "radiant form" or anything
you experience in meditaiton is real?

For example has the radiant form ever told you any information that can
be verified as true.

Unless you can validate it objectively and prove it under laboratory
conditions, it is not true.

One hundred people who saw the form of Gurinder change into Charan
are all deluded and I can prove it.

Gurinder DID NOT ACTUALLY change into Charan.

We all know that, because it is impossible.

They just SAW it - so that means they are deluded because they are seeing
things that did not really happen.

Would you believe it if 100 people say that saw Kirpal change into Sawan?

NO?

But his followers would.

You are a believer and you believe everything written in RSSB books.

Stop kidding yourself that you are a scientist.

Science of the Soul? Give me a break!

It should be called "religion of the soul"

Attn. R.S. Skeptic and Spencer Tepper, regarding Skeptic's comment that Sant Mat and Meditation is not Science of the Soul.

I introduced a Scientist, to Sant Mat a few years ago, who happens to be a Harvard educated Physicist. He is Dr. Richard Ruquist, Ph.D. He is now 80 years young, and was a U.S. Military Defense Physicist working on Pres. Reagon's Star War Defense Program.

He is a Sant Mat Initiate. I suggest R.S. Skeptic contact Dr. Ruquist, and tell him he is not a Science of the Soul Scientist.

Here are a few of his statements regarding Sant Mat as a Science, posted on the Internet. He has many published Physics PTers on tne Interndt, Skeptic, should you like to critique a few of them. Just Google his Name.

From Dr. Ruquist:

The T-duality of string theory may explain the mechanism of entanglement because with T-duality, everything is somewhat entangled with everything. The basis of the T-duality is that the physics compactified on a shell outside a symmetric structure a distance R from the center point of symme or try is related to the physics on a shell at 1/R inside the symmetric structure where the radius of the circle or sphere, (it works in any number of dimensions) is R=1. The internal physics includes a number 1/R of wrappings around the shell such that the relationship of the inside to the outside near the center is that of an spectral transform like a Fourier transform in one dimension. I found god when I realized that the transform of a Dirac Delta function at the center became a uniform infinite space on the outside. I call that god because the Hindu symbol for god is a circle with a center point. Meher Baba in GOD SPEAKS says that the center point is your soul and that all souls are the same soul: https://www.ambppct.org/Book_Files/godspeaks_ft.pdf. If so, the mind surrounds the soul, and the astral space surrounds the mind. The astral space is composed of all the 6D particles formed from the 10 dimensions (by having the Flux curl them up) that collectively become a Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC). BECs are totally entangled such that quantum effects cannot dissipate. So Masters can have clones for example.

A conjecture within the string cosmology is that the Metaverse was created the same way the each universe was created, by the Flux curling up 6 dimensions so that 3 could expand as space. [The Time dimension is racing at the speed of light in every direction within this expanding 3D space. Try to imagine that...Photons shot in any direction can keep up with Time, except in BECs where a photon can even be made to stop traveling. But long before that the poor photon had lost its race with time and his time stamp]...So the Metaverse has a singular sub-space that is a Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC) that allows wave equations to be written on it just like each universe, only the astral space of each universe contains physical quantum waves and the corresponding Metaverse space contains mental quantum waves.

The sound current is conjectured to only have "intention". The sound current does what it knows to do without knowing 'why' it is doing it. The sound current does not have need-to-know. It is further conjectured that as a rule all lessor beings require need-to-know. ...Yet there is an observer from outside of spacetime that can adjust the intention of the sound current. The observer therefore has "intelligence" as well as "intention", along with consciousness and foresight/hindsight, I presume.

Consciousness may be fundamental but both string theory and the earliest form of Hinduisn, Sankhya Yoga, suggest that creation starts with two things. In the case of string theory they are Flux and Dimensions. In the case of Sankhya they are Prakrti and Purusa.... Purusa is pure consciousness made up of an infinite number of spirits or souls whereas prakrti is primeval manifestations of matter and mental states.... In my 26 dimensional string cosmology http://vixra.org/pdf/0911.0046v1.pdf, the curling up of dimensions is the basis of both the mental Metaverse and the materialistic universes. It is presumed that the 26D unified field is pure consciousness and is the Flux that manipulates the dimensions. But the 26 dimensions are a given in the string cosmology and seemingly in Sankhya as well. The T-duality of string theory appears to be the basis of individuated spirits or souls and it explains where human consciousness comes from. But the primeval soul consciousness is filtered and limited by mental and physical effects.

Yes, the sound current makes everything work. If it can bend dimensions, it must be able to control physical interactions. But just how it interacts with the 6 dimensional particles of space that the sound current has curled up is still a question. The resulting 6D particles in my string cosmology form a universal sub-space that can calculate wave functions- a cosmic computer. I suspect that the 6D particles calculatate everything that is possible while the sound current determines which of the possibilities become physical"


Would Tucson tell me the writer of the verse he quotes? Is it perhaps Spanish? I find it superb.

By following the path of saints & adopting it in life. Slowly & steadily Soul/Ruh becomes stronger than nafs/mind. When soul becomes stronger than mind , it can numb the mind at will. When mind is numbed by soul , visions of Noor /Divine light start. Its a deathless state of consciousness also called baqa /perpetuity by Sufi mystics. Its called dying while living by Christian saints. It requires discipline , honesty , piety & self mortification which is beyond the experience of most people. Just like a child sitting in cosy room saying about becoming Wimbledon Champion without understanding the enormity of what he is saying. Laborer has more chance of becoming saint than intellectual.
Mark 10:25 " It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Perhaps English isn't vinny's native tongue??

Who fucking cares whether inner experiences that can't be proven are true or not?! I don't and neither should you. If I questioned your inner experiences of sound and lights you probably would think I am a bit of an arsehole. And you would be right.

Jim
Really nice Dr Rumquist theory but he could perhaps mingle/integrate with the Fibonacci theory
as well for outcoming vibrations as the incomong

To make it clear , approaching the center as a "Golden Rule wave"
and f i
That wave being one inch from the non existing center , it has still a zillion to the power of xillion lightyears to go
which explains that it ever grows, The Love

The Lovers there are thus the real representation of the essence of the center and some can be named gihf God in Human Form
Just fill a Guy with Love and He is there

It explains also the Reason of this creation among innumerable other, creation for accumulating Love and enjoyment

No Soul is excluded, there is no other place to go

It's a fabulous thing and As soon as the RSSB Method works a little bit
It s sweet as honey

777

Seperating the soul from the body via meditation techniques leaves a gaping hole and void in the heart of a person that can only be filled with God. Nothing else can fill that void, and everybody has it, including RSSB meditators. They simply imagine they are fulfilled with their OBE experiences. It is sad to see.

Of course, any metaphysical debate will bring up God and the existence of such a thing. But so will a lot of other events in real life. God is the be all and end all of all subjects, science included. In order to know whether God exists or not you need revelation. And Revelation exists. So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to become an atheist that does a detour away from revelation into skepticism that produces existential despair or are you going to run to meditation and drug experiences to get to the truth? There might be another avenue of approach.


Hi Lizzie,

Li Po, Chinese poet in the early 20th century.

This poem is loved by many.

Hi RS Sceptic

You wrote

"RSSB, Islam, christianity, Buddhism are all religions.
They are not a science.
You are not a scientist.
You are convinced of the truth of RSSB. That's all.
You don't even know for yourself that it is truth."

RS Sceptic, you seem to know a lot about me, my internal experience and what I know and don't know.

Does your cynicism give you extra sensory perception?

Does it make you omniscient so that you can actually see into the experience of others?

At least a scientist must adopt an open mind and conduct some actual work to find out for themselves whether there is truth to a claim.

But not RS Sceptic. He doesn't need to inquire, he doesn't need an open mind. He can even ignore hard research in the field of meditation conducted at Harvard and Yale. Changes in DNA, clinicalimprovements in brain health, clinical improvements, measured and confirmed don't matter, because they can be measured, according to RS Sceptic. Only the internal experiences matter, but asset they are internal they can't be proven, and so they are false.

Even corroborated independent witnesses to an unusual, supernatural event are all "delusional". And the witnesses no better than people on hallucinogens, says RS Sceptic.

Every internal experience is false. Only the physical world that he witnesses.

Because, he knows better.

Better than anyone else with a different experience. They are false. RS Sceptic is real. He knows.

He is all knowing.

And you say you don't believe in religion?

Dear Spencer,
you asked me:


RS Sceptic, you seem to know a lot about me, my internal experience and what I know and don't know.

Does your cynicism give you extra sensory perception?

I don't need ESP.

Obviously you are not a scientist, as you would not be
so easily taken in by RSSB if you were.

You are conviced of the truth of RSSB - again obvious.

You don't know for yourself that it is the truth. Once again I am stating the
obvious because internal experiences are not proof of the
truth or reality of those experiences.

There is a person who claims to be Jesus come back.

He even remembers being on the cross.

and most importantly (for him) he even remembers very
conveniently that his current girlfriend is Mary Magdelene.

That is his internal experience. Does it make it true?

No - it's just that he is convinced.

I bet you don't believe him for one moment.

Yet you believe your inner experiences.

Why?

Because you are convinced (just as he is) that they are true.

However, everything you believe is true, is not true.

You, Me, and everyone believe lots of bullshit.

Muslims believe the koran is he word of god and inspired.

Christiants believe jesus was born to a virgin mary.

Budhists believe Buddha jumped out of his mothers womb and took eight steps.

Radha Soamis believe that a human known as Gurinder Dhillon is actually the

supreme being, God, incarnated as a human.

Sikhs believe that keeping long hair and reciting the scriptures is somehow
holy and pleasing to God.

These are all ridiculous beliefs to everyone except the
person who holds those beliefs.

Everyone else laughs at those beliefs.

Subjectective, VS. Objective thought, are determined by the Soul, Mind or Brain.

But how do we know how to differenciate one from the other?

Here is an Essay from one of my Rosicrucian Studies, from the past, during my ten year Degree Study with AMORC, that really helped me clarify one from the other, which might also clsrify the difference betwen Subjective and aobjective thoughts.

BRAIN vs. MIND vs. SOUL, as per Rosicrucian Thought
THE BRAIN IS TO THE PHYSICAL BODY,
AS THE MIND IS TO THE PSYCHIC BODY,
WITH THE SOUL AS THE ETERNAL MASTER


In the second chapter of the Book of Genesis, there occurs the statement that God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The beauty of wording in the familiar scriptures often causes us to forget that here is a statement of fundamental law. It is a statement of basic metaphysical ontology! Our consideration of certain esoteric principles and meditation brings us back once more to its contemplation perhaps with deeper appreciation of its real meaning.

Throughout the spiritual writing of antiquity, we find the idea of soul expressed by a word whose meaning was also breath. In all languages of ancient times, especially those related to the Sanskrit, the psychic or spiritual part of man is associated with breath and breathing. Furthermore, it becomes increasingly plain to the student that the philosophers, teachers, and inspired writers of those times when dealing with the vital force in the breath did not have in mind air or oxygen. They had in mind that intangible vitality or, essential something, later called consciousness.

This vital breath in every cell of every part of our bodies is akin to the psychic consciousness. Keeping in mind this kinship, we shall better understand how this psychic or Cosmic Consciousness pervades our very being, making its presence felt in every part of our physical bodies. Remembering, too, that this consciousness with its vitality and wisdom comes into our bodies with the first breath and leaves with the last one, we shall see that the psychic part of us is something distinct, not something created and born inside our physical bodies.

The brain consciousness, however, does grow with the body, beginning with the first few minutes after birth. At the moment of birth, the brain does not have any knowledge, wisdom or understanding. It is as free of knowledge as the pages of a book upon which nothing has been printed. Gradually and steadily through the experiences of living the brain acquires its knowledge. When in the moment of transition, the consciousness withdraws from the body, the brain like every other part of the physical body becomes useless and its acquired and stored-up knowledge is lost.

Cosmic Consciousness is of a different nature. It is part of the universal wisdom and universal vitality. It is immortal and whatever wisdom or knowledge is registered in its storehouse is never lost.

This Cosmic Consciousness brings with it into the body both a
vast amount of eternal wisdom and whatever wisdom it has acquired in its previous incarnations. From the first hour of birth it begins to exert an influence within us, directing and Controlling the inner activities of the body, prompting us at all times as to what we should and should not do.

By cultivating and encouraging the influences and ministrations of this inner consciousness, we add to its strength and thereby enlarge its opportunity to make its wisdom ours. As we daily add to the knowledge of our temporary helper, the brain, we likewise increase the knowledge in the storehouse of our inner consciousness; thus continually building up a dual reserve-the wisdom and knowledge of a temporary nature which is lodged in the brain, and that which is to be a permanent part of our evolving consciousness.

It is the Cosmic Consciousness in us that we are encouraging to manifest because through it we may experience our attunement and connection with the Cosmic, Universal mind and with the mind of God. It is this Cosmic Consciousness in us that will project to distant places if we proceed properly and permit it to extend itself. Although it is never completely separated from the Universal, all-prevading Cosmic Consciousness at any time, unless we establish a sort of Spiritual arrangement, we are never aware of what is going on.
First our outer consciousness or brain consciousness must become attuned with our inner psychic consciousness in order that that inner psychic consciousness may reveal to the brain or outer consciousness some of the things it has learned in the past as well as that which it is learning day by day from its attunement with the Cosmic mind. In this way the psychic part of ourselves becomes a link between the outer mind and the Cosmic or the Cosmic Consciousness.
You must not think of yourself merely as a physical man or woman. You are a dual being, dual in all your conceptions of your existence. You must emphasize in your thinking this fact that there is an outer self and an inner self. You must be aware that this outer self has its weaknesses, frailties, and even its inevitable submission to mortality. You must as well be aware that the inner self is limitless in its contacts, immortal in its existence, and omnipotent in its power and wisdom. Although we have a greater right to depend upon the inner self for guidance, since childhood we have allowed the outer self or brain to dictate. First, it was our parents, then our teachers. In our adulthood it was the outer consciousness and brain of dynamic speakers, writers, editors, or radio or TV orators or Preachers or Masters who influenced us.
The people appealing to our brain and outer consciousness cause us to obey the ideas and opinions they create. We forget that in our inner consciousness we have a far more reliable guide. The Inner Self makes no mistakes, has no misconceptions, is never biased or prejudiced, and knows all things. For this reason, you should give as much time as you can to its cultivation. It is not something that requires much labor and real work. You should, however, not permit the presence of doubt, or a condition of stress.

It is not a matter of fanatical or extreme ritualism. Sitting down, relaxing and meditating, or concentrating is something that all of the world's greatest artists, musicians, writers, and thinkers do now as they have done in the past. Even the busiest of businessmen often close their doors and allow no one to disturb them for about fifteen minutes. During that time, they open the inner heart and consciousness to the Cosmic, who is The Father, or Nameless Anami Purush. It is at such times that some of their most inspiring and revealing ideas come to them.
Every movement of the physical body, even that of the hands and fingers, uses a great deal of the body's vitality. Every thought and mental activity of the brain likewise uses some energy. In fact, it is only when the physical body and mind are at rest through relaxation that the physical and mental vitality of the body is not being used to its fullest extent.
The moment you sit down to meditate and relax, you stop un-necessary expenditure of energy and vitality in the physical body and brain. You thus allow this energy to be used by the psychic part of your body for the upbuilding, rebuilding and regeneration of the cells of the body. These re-create themselves, produce new ones and revitalize worn and tired ones. Each period of concentration and relaxation, therefore, is a period of regeneration for the physical and mental bodies. If during this relaxation the inner or psychic self is attuned with the Cosmic, there is a great benefit. The inner self is able to draw upon the Cosmic energy, and this energy may be used for repairing those parts of the body injured, worn out or broken down through everyday activities. When the mind of the psychic body becomes completely motionless, and relaxed, then………..the SOUL, that Eternal Drop of The Ocean of Anami Purush, or The Father, pays a visit to Its Eternal Home!

Summary
• The statement that God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" is a statement of fundamental law which can perhaps be considered now with greater understanding than formerly.
· The idea of soul or the psychic or spiritual part of man is associated with breath or breathing in all languages and writing of antiquity. This association was with the intangible vital force in the breath later called consciousness.
· Cosmic Consciousness is immortal, a part of the universal wisdom and vitality, and whatever is registered in its storehouse is never lost; whereas the brain consciousness grows with the body but at transition its stored-up knowledge is lost.
· By adding to the knowledge of the brain consciousness we likewise increase the knowledge in the storehouse of our inner consciousness, thus adding to that which is to be a permanent part of the evolving consciousness.
· The outer consciousness must become attuned with the inner psychic consciousness in order to establish a link between the outer mind and the Cosmic.
· Such attunement may be accomplished only by relaxation, meditation and concentration, which halt the unnecessary expenditure of energy and vitality in the physical body and brain, allowing this energy to be used by the psychic part of the body for re-creat­ing new cells and revitalizing old ones, as well as permitting inspiring and helpful impressions to reach the inner consciousness.
· The Soul is freed up from the mind as soon as the mind is quieted enough to become motionless, and is therefore, paying a visit to Its Eternal Home!

Dear Spencer,

you know how to twist a statement.

I just showed in the last comment that I don't need any special powers
to make those statements. they are obvious.

You said

Even corroborated independent witnesses to an unusual, supernatural event are all "delusional". And the witnesses no better than people on hallucinogens, says RS Sceptic.

Every internal experience is false. Only the physical world that he witnesses.

What a lot of nonsense.

What "Corroborated independent witnesses" ?

You mean a bunch of brain washed RSSB followers ?

hardly independent and reliable witnesses.

They are all people who desperately WANT to see what they saw.

A far cry from independent witnesses.

Bring the news media or take a few hundred non RSSB followers to the same satsang and I can guarantee that they will not see Gurinder morph into Charan.

How do I know? Am I endowed with all-knowingness?

Hardly.

I know because Gurinder DID NOT morph into Charah, physically.
That statement above is 100% true. It is not just my opinion.

Firstly it is impossible unless science is seriously wrong about physical reality.
Things do not just morph into other things.

Secondly, a bunch of RSSB followers saw it because they wanted to.

If you are saying that it wasn't physical, then at least you are a little credible, because they you are saying it is not happen physically, only in the minds of those who saw it.

but no - you are saying it was physical

which is 100% certain that it did not happen.

If you captured it on a video tape, the change from
Gurinder to Charan would not be on the tape.

Do you agree? (if you don't then you are very seriously deluded because even RSSB followers will agree that it will not show up on a tape)

If you agree, then it didn't happen physically.

that is what how I can say they are delusional.

they saw something that did not really happen.

That is what delusional means.

Anyone who sees something that is not really there is called delusional.

Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water but after me comes one who will baptize you with holy spirit & fire. Here baptism with fire means the path of Saints is extremely difficult to follow like walking on embers. Baba Faqir Chand says real baptism is adopting teaching of saints not any mantra repetition. As dharma/nature of fire is to burn , the teachings of saints will burn desires of nafs and takabur/arrogance. When this is achieved mind starts becoming numb even without mantra repetition. Holy spirit of God is perceived as warm divine light.

vinny, I can tell you that the Holy Spirit in my experience is not a warm divine light, though it could be said that there is an aspect of it like that. I mean, it isn't seeing a light at the end of a tunnel which is what Sant Mat meditations are supposed to be like.

RS Sceptic,

You'd be better off worshipping mathematics that worshipping science. Most of science is theory.

Sceptic,

subtle is the word.

you are clung too tightly on physical
because you have not experienced the subtle and that's also the reason you believe physical is more real than subtle.

you said it happened in minds and not in physical that's also partially correct.
It didn't happen in physical - correct - but it happened in subtle.

also, that didn't happen to everyone and happened only to those who wanted it to happen - sheer wrong perception and misconception.

Try to imagine subtle and want it to happen and have it happened for you. you can't do that.

had you ever tasted the flavour of subtle, you would have been able to perceive everything beyond the explanation of physical.

tapes and recorders are physical and are incapable to record subtle - that is the ultra pitiful situation for the ones who live and die in physical - they search for a recorder to record the subtle and get themselves the proof - but they don't want to try a simple and effective technique to experience the subtle. for many in the world, the pitiful scientists, proofs works better than experience.

It's the experience, the experience of love and the grandeur of HIS vibrations which HE keeps continuously radiating from HIS eyes right here being in the physical form - but the vibrations are too subtle to be observed by physical eyes.

HE gifts a subtle receiver to observe the subtle right here being present in the physical ... the receiver is also subtle and hence not visible.

It's an amazing phenomena, beyond the explanation with this physical language. because these words and language is not capable enough to explain something which doesn't belong here.

have you ever cried while missing someone very close ?

Matthew 22:14 KJV "For many are called but few are chosen "
Means many people are attracted to the path of saints.
But due to extremely difficult nature of path which involves brutal honesty, piety,seclusion,charity & sacrifice of carnal desires; most people leave the path midway. Few determined people who have absolute faith in the path of saints continue to travel on the path. In doing so their soul becomes stronger than nafs and overpowers nafs. When this happens soul can numb the mind at will. Experience is similar to numbness experienced after Novocaine Shot. After this numbness of nafs, visions of the soul start. Few chosen ones are not chosen by some random allocation.These are the people who endure hardships even to the extent of abject poverty.
My composed Urdu couplet describing difficulty of path :
" Agar raahe suluk aasan hota , tou har khadim bhi wali hota "
English translation : if the path of saints were easy , every attendant/khadim would be a Saint.

Dear RS Sceptic

You wrote

" I know because Gurinder DID NOT morph into Charah, physically.
That statement above is 100% true. It is not just my opinion."

Please prove it. Show me you know what it really means to be a scientist. And not merely a cynic. Because if you have no capacity for scientific inquiry, you have no basis to claim truth, and your statements are unfounded and without merit.

On the other hand, if a meditation practitioner indeed has a number of experiences as the result of their efforts at
meditation, whether these are the proven physical benefits detailed in the scientific literature , the proven psychological ones also found in the literature , or even those subtle experiences that are simply personal experiences of awesomeness, documented in anecdotal witness over thousands of years, then that practitioner has external verification of what they witnessed.

Your views cannot be disproven by your moving standard . Precisely because you are not being objective. They are just your opinions. Even if it could be proven that Babaji morphed into Maharaji, you would not believe that evidence. And the evidence for my claim is how you responded to the hard scientific research at Harvard, Yale and other reliable research centers who have, for decades offered evidence for the physical and psychological benefits of meditation. You dismissed that. Your claim that rssb mediators are subject to decayed cognitive functioning via hallucinations is largely the opposite of all the hard evidence on meditation... Which is that meditation, especially long term meditation, increases brain health, physical health, and cognitive functioning.


So, if a long term mediator sees something you cannot see, they might be witnessing something real... It might be something different than the image generated by their own brain, but it would be a real something. Everything you see is generated in an image created by your brain. If you improve the functioning of the brain, and that brain perceives something new as a result of functioning better, then it is the functioning of the non - mediator who may be unable to perceive adequately what is actually here.

In the meanwhile, it is the long term mediator who is proven wrong every day to themselves. Every sitting is an opportunity to get it right and make progress. But most days it is a struggle. And the better you get at it, the tougher the struggle becomes.

So many personal failures in meditation. Just like Edison's 1,000 failed experiments to create a working light bulb. Edison famously remarked "I didn't fail 1,000 times. I learned how not to make a light bulb 1,000 different ways."

Progress in meditation is very similar. The practitioner finds that subtle changes in diet, in thinking, in actions, in relationships to others has an impact on their attempts to still their mind.

But like Edison, the successful practitioner learns from these "failures", constantly changing, adjusting their lifestyle, their attitude, their responsibilities, their vigilance and diligence all to the effect that such changes have amazing effects on their meditation. And there are so many changes that have no effect. The hypothesis was wrong. But, believing in the theory, they try something else.

Anyone who can't acknowledge they are dead wrong, and change their life accordingly, can make very little progress in meditation.

Meditation is largely a process of stripping away our own false beliefs and distracting addictions to any number of things and emotions.

Any progress at all is the result of acknowledging day in and day out "well I was wrong about that ".

And the result, like Edison, is actually progress. Because acknowledging what is wrong thinking, wrong behavior and habit, and working hard to change is very right. Then we are learning and growing.

It's the lazy thinkers who don't realize how wrong they are all the time who cannot then learn what is right.

So for dedicated meditators, in that science, admitting they might be wrong is only the start. It is a much more vigorous fault finding process. They are wrong, they see it, they grow, and then whole worlds are their reward.

So don't be afraid of being wrong RS Sceptic.. Join the club. It is the fault each day seen and responded to that becomes in time the right.

There are lots of studies on the deleterious effects of meditation too. I've seen hundreds of them. So I can't go along with the idea that meditation is only beneficial.

Also, having mystical experiences doesn't depend upon meditation practices. A lot of times they come to people spontaneously who may otherwise be active and in a non-meditative state of mind.

What I don't understand is why people think that meditation IS beneficial, since in a lot of instances a person is simply resting with their eyes closed and trying to still their mind or otherwise thinking about a lot of different things, perhaps trying to problem solve. But you don't need meditation to problem solve. A lot of it just seems like a huge waste of time in my opinion. Aside from small relaxation effects, eastern meditation appears to be a selfish sitting-on-your-butt waste of time.

Mind draws power from Ruh/Soul . Mantra repetition instead of stilling mind exhausts the energy of Ruh. Most of the Sufi mystics/Majzubs still the mind not by mantra repetition but by increasing strength of Ruh by following the path of asceticism , poverty, piety & honesty. When the experience first occurred to me I was startled at the deception of mantra method. I have led brutally honest life of piety & charity which has resulted in personal poverty. My first experience of stilling mind by the strength of Ruh clarified everything to me , truth of path , state of mystics , deception of mantra repetition & existence of Noor/Divine light.

Ji D. r.

Meditation may not be for everyone, but there is a growing tradition of hard scientific evidence, over the last fifty years, that proves it is extremely healthy, and produces results no other activity does. For example, there is no other known treatment that reverses the aging of the brain, and which actually strengthens and thickens the cortex.

No other treatment is known to repair DNA.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/02/09/7-ways-meditation-can-actually-change-the-brain/

And there are many other positive benefits, according to the review by the National Institute of Health.

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation/overview.htm

Again, it's not for everyone, but for those who like it enough to stay with it the benefits are great.

www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/meditation-offers-significant-heart-benefits


Not only healthy for your heart but even better than vacation for some

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/relaxation-benefits-meditation-stronger-relaxation-benefits-taking-vacation-2016102710532

Jesus said "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will rule over all."

Means disciples who seek kingdom of heaven/deathless state should not settle for mental philosophies. Because mind cannot take you beyond trap of mind. Mind's recipes for salvation would be as absurd as any thug pretending innocence to evade punishment. When the seekers find the sacred knowledge of numbing mind by struggle against Nafs to reach Ruh/soul without any mantra , they will be disturbed by the lies fed to them [mantra repetition & philosophies of mind]. Then they will marvel that the simple method of numbing mind by strength of Ruh can give them immortality. With this sacred knowledge which is highest level of knowledge the disciple will be respected everywhere in the world.

People who have not yet developed that strength of Ruh , can still the mind either by watching breath after closing eyes or by looking at darkness on closing eyes or combination of both. They should not become victim of mantra repetition.

just came across this amazing video.

watch it from 0:36 i.e. 36 minutes into the video if you want to get to the main part.

one mans journey from being a believer to realizing that all religion and belief in is a
delusion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5ZLuRYp8gk

even more discoveries that jesus was a made up character found in earlier mythology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNtF1-Y-JJM

watch from 2 hours and 30 minutes into the video

Victim of mind & senses cannot take you beyond mind. At least 12 years of celibacy & character would build up the concentration to tear the veils of mind. You can't expect sixth grader to know secrets of Nuclear Physics. Any armchair spiritualist victim of senses would only drag the seeker in rut of mind & matter.

Hunger & Fasting are important in the path. Only one vegetarian meal in the morning & fruit salad in the night. Dreams will disappear , Ruh will be awakened , control over mind/Nafs will increase.
Warm sensations will be felt at top of head or in the region of heart. Love for Saints will increase in heart. That love will permeate mind & numb most of the desires of mind/Nafs. Rest of the desires can be ignored by strength of Ruh. First achievement will be absolutely neglecting the thoughts of mind. You can call this state gateway of samadhi/trance. Headache & other changes in body may happen as Ruh is not accustomed to control/ ignore the Nafs/mind. Disciple should take leave from work for at least one or two months to adapt to these changes in body.
All the heavens are not physical places but only states of consciousness. That consciousness is " love ". Emotion of love comes from beyond the realm of mind & matter. Jesus & all Saints have said " God is love " .
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel,
but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels."
Means spirit of love has created material universe & mind ; not the other way round.
This divine energy of love existed before creation . All the heavens are stages of consciousness in this emotional energy of love. Anyone thinking of physical heaven & hell is a fool .Great secret has been revealed to the world. Divine light/Noor of God is not any overtly mystical thing , it is actually emotional energy of love which exists in Ruh & whole of universe. Wake up now , everything has been revealed which was hidden until now.

An objective reality is perceived by a subject. So is it objective?

This simple experiment can bring profound insight . Start ignoring thoughts/desires of Nafs for 2 hours daily. Increase this time to 6 hours daily . This experiment can be done without closing eyes.
Within 2 years disciple will witness separation of Ruh from Mind. High probability of attaining first stage of trance /samadhi which is thoughtless state of consciousness.

Thoughts of lust created by Nafs can be countered by bad/painful memories/experiences.
Once the lusty thoughts subside , person can think about pleasant memories of life.
As mentioned in interviews conducted by David Lane , when energy of concentration builds up person may see intense light within. Some people may not like that intense light & would not like to dwell in that light. Even if they don't want that light , they should not become victims of lust again.
Such people can continue to enjoy control over lust , take part in artistic aspects of life after solving the riddle of spirit , mind & body.

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