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May 13, 2017

Comments

Spence wrote:
Do you think someone's love is based on getting sweets from someone? Or healthy food?
We are love Osho. We are all made of love, and no one has any more or less than anyone else.

Osho Robbins:

Have you ever loved anyone who is your enemy and is out to harm you?

No - because that would be lunacy

You can only love someone who you believe is good and beneficial for you.

When someone does you favours and helps you - you begin to like that person.

If they do something that makes no longer trust them - you pull away,

The spiritual journey is no different.

Why did all the people who followed Thakar pull away and leave once the bad publicity came out?

I can pretty much guarantee those same people once professed great love for Thakar Singh.

Where did that love go?

I bet if some bad publicity came out about Gurinder, the majority would leave.

So then where is their love?

Spence:
he Masters connect with their disciples internally. That is where the relationship starts, lives, and is consummated. It began long before the disciple ever set eyes on their Master. And the Master also provides a means for the disciple to verify the legitimacy of that internal connection.

That cannot be viewed or assessed externally, as you are repeatedly trying to do.

Osho Robbins:

Nice idea - but clearly not true.
Why would there be so many questions on the mic?

Why would disciples be ASKING for grace?

You only ask for what you don't have.

Only very few get any inner confirmation. If they did the satsang halls would be empty. Everyone would be at home, traversing inner regions. Who would want to waste precious time going to pointless satsangs where they repeat the same stuff you have been hearing for the last 20 years.

Spence:
Second, the Masters teach about their love for their disciples as being internal and not limited by physical proximity.

Osho Robbins:

Not true.

They books say you cannot under rate the value of physical company.

There is even a story of one of the RSSB masters (not sure if it was Sawan Singh) who said that if I would just have a glimpse of my master again - I would give up everything.

A disciple said "but surely you see him every day in your meditation"

and the master said "But it is not the same as the darshan of the physical"

Osho
You wrote
"The disciples WANTS to love – because otherwise he is doomed."

That is far from the teachings of Sant Mat. You didn't read what I wrote. It doesn't depend upon the disciple. The love comes from the Master alone.

You are describing someone who is not very far along as an initiate, possibly yourself.

A better scientist would interview Satsangis and even then, not draw sweeping generalities about the internal motivations of Satsangis, as you are attempting to do.

You wrote
" I am merely examining the possibility of any “love” existing between master and disciple when the deck is stacked."

That is your belief system, Osho.

A foundational principle is that the entire relationship is love from the start.

You wrote

"There is a huge motive in convincing yourself that you love the master.

I am questioning how much of that is delusion."

Osho, since you deny the spiritual nature of the relationship you have already concluded it is all delusion.

Again, your logic is false.

Again, this is just a form of your prejudice.

One-initiated, are you really saying that you cannot distinguish between a statement I made which is neutral, and a judgemental statement (calling something good/bad)
This is what I wrote:

Let’s examine HOW and WHY disciples claim to love their master.
Here are reasons to love the master
(1) He has great qualities and you look up to him
(2) You admire him and want to be like him
.
.
.

Do you honestly think that is a judgemental statement and that I am judging people I have not met and calling them “bad” in some way?

Go back and read what I have written. I am examining the possibility (or impossibility) of having love for a master when you have so many reasons to delude yourself.
How come you don’t love the beggar on the street?
Because you’re not going to get any benefit.

Can someone love Jesus, or Guru Nanak?
And if they claim to – are they just deluding themselves or do they really love someone they have never met?
When someone loves a master they have never met – at best they can love the concept they have created in their mind.
Besides what is this love? The disciples who claimed to love thakar later did not. What was that? Did the love change? Was it real?
I am saying it’s self-delusion because you want to believe you love.

One-initiated:
Osho would be surprised to know that I have met numerous (and I know some) really spiritually advanced disciples, deep in their love for the Master, who have not personally met the Master even once, but they are surely attached with the Master inside.

Osho Robbins:
Surely attached?
Really Spiritually advanced?
Deep in their love for master?

HOW do you KNOW any of this is true?
HOW do you decide?
There are people who claim to be Jesus
Who do you believe and why?

What about YOU? Are you spiritually advanced?
You are just convinced about others. What about you?
The point of sant mat is to get there yourself – bot believe others.

It’s all nonsense. I have seen it all, heard it all.
In the 80’s and 90’s there were the handful of people who gave live satsangs and
The whole sangat was 100% convinced that they were all “sants and mahatmas”
So much so that videos were made of their satsangs.
When Maharaj Charan Singh found out he put a stop to it all.

Then slowly it became known that speakers are just ordinary people and not advanced

Now the sangat knows they are just ordinary and not advanced

Osho Robbins:

"Not true.

They books say you cannot under rate the value of physical company."

But you have entirely dismissed the internal relationship they teach.

And so your entire argument collapses.

Osho, you wrote

"Why would there be so many questions on the mic?

Why would disciples be ASKING for grace?

You only ask for what you don't have.

Only very few get any inner confirmation. If they did the satsang halls would be empty."

Osho, you logic fails completely. Without that inner connection, those halls would be empty. Without having tasted His grace, no one would ask for more.

People ask questions and go to see Him to understand that connection, to deepen it, to expand their own experience of it. The entire Satsang as the Masters teach repeatedly, is to encourage our attending to meditation, the inner connection.

And as the Great Master, Sawan Singh wrote to a disciple, "Come to me in your armchair."

I get this is entirely a mystery to you.

But you have the means to explore your own inner experiences, whatever they may be, and that is a rich place worthy of exploration.

To claim that dark room is empty because you didn't make your eye of inner attention single and focused, and flood that darkness with light is your choice. And it is an unscientific choice to base conclusions on the absence of the experiment itself.

Draw a conclusion when you have conducted your own highly controlled experiments before concluding quantum physics doesn't exist.

Osho, the only wealth any of us truly own is our attention. Wasting it on judging others, calling people delusional, claiming they are all hypnotized, is costly. What we attend to we give away.

Attend to the exploration of your own self, because that investment will return the benefits to you.

To Osho: D.M. Murdock, was a Writer having many of the same arguments and thoughts you presently have. But she was not only an Activist promoting much of what you promote, but was a highly published Author of many books, .......which I bought, own, and have read!

https://www.amazon.com/Acharya-S/e/B001UXZSBM/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1

I had quite a bit of private email corrsepondence with her, regarding her unmoving belief, that there was never a historic man named Jesus Christ that ever existed, and that the entire Bible is a Myth, as well as most of the Eastern Scriptures.

She was firm, in her beliefs, and had a very large following, parroting her reserach and favorote quotes.

She was non argumentative, and refused to get in to any Internet Forum arguments, but she had ample comments taken from her many books to counter any negative attack against her.

She seemed to like me, ...or at least, toletated my preaching to her about her needing a Living Master to Initiate her in to Inner Regions so she could see for her self what she said didn't exist.

I actually liked her , and she even send me many free pdfs of her books to down load that sold on Amazon in the list above, but they ususally were for a $5.00 "donation" to cover her expenses of continued research.

About several years ago, ( can't remember exactly), she quit answering my emails, and I finally got an email from her, that was a Form letter from her saying she had been just diagnosed with a rare form of Cancer that attacked her internal organs.

But she said she was confident she would beat it, if people sent her money to pay for her special required treatments, what ever they were.

I thought it was a Hoax, and she mght be scamming the public, so ignored her continued requests for money.

But,.......she died 6 months later!! Young! I doubt she was more than 60.

Karma?

Madalyne Murry O'Hara was another extreme ATHEIST, who was widely known among Atheist circles about 25-30 years ago, that I remember reading much of her literature. She dssappeared suddenly .

Paul Kurtz was another.

You are following in their foot steps, Osho.

But, you have time to repent, and if nothing else,at least, quit trying to unload your extreme negative unblief and faithlessness on others.

You might consider at least keeping your lethel poison to yourself, and immediate family and friends.

Why pollute strangers, if as you claim, it is not your Mission?

😇😍

I got this email from the " Successor" of D. M. Murdock's Mythicist, who will continue promoting her books, and keeping her mercy alive.

Her it is:

"Hi folks, brace yourself ... here is a pic of Acharya's headstone - notice the personified sun symbol with a face inside it. She passed away on Christmas and her birthday this year just happened to be on Easter - which is fitting for one of the greatest mythicists who ever lived: https://www.facebook.com/acharyas/posts/10156797087780604 Here's an Easter article excerpted from her Moses book: Moses, the Promised Land and Easter http://stellarhousepublishing.com/moses-easter.html We are still grieving terribly. Our hearts are broken and we will never be the same again. We can only be thankful for the time we shared with her and keep her work available. Please help by donating, which will keep Acharya's websites, books and everything up and running: http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/acharyapdfs.html http://truthbeknown.com/help.htm I would like to start an annual summer solstice celebration in honor of Acharya to celebrate her life and work in mythology. I am open to suggestions so post your thoughts at the freethought nation forum. I'd like to help inspire future generations of men and especially women to study her work and pursue a degree in mythology and astrotheology. Her work may be utilized to help create a new department of astrotheological and mythological studies. Astrotheology / Case for Mythicism 101 Course http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4313 Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=18805 Please share

Spencer,
This is what I wrote earlier.

Love? Do you think YOU (or indeed anyone) LOVES the master?
Your mind measures up the benefits. And it decides it would be GOOD to love the master. Then it convinces itself that it loves the master.
If Gurinder Singh Dhillon was NOT the master and if someone else had been appointed instead, WHO would you love today?
Would everyone be chasing GSD, or the successor? Obviously the successor.
Why? Because of the benefits.

so if Gurinder had not been appointed the successor, would you still love Gurinder? or the successor?

I am assuming your reply is going to be "the successor"

if which case - you will love anyone who is in that position of the guru.

It's not even personal - it could be anyone.

If you agree with this - you will also have to agree that you don't love the master, but what he can do for you.


I am stating quite categorically that you and everyone loves the guru for a reason - and the reason is the benefits.

If you disagree - then explain how that love came about.

How come you dont love random people you meet in the streets.

I am not being judgemental - as you seem to think. It's nothing personal.

I am just asking, where did this love come from?

Do you just love random people walking in the street?

No.

Do you love Kirpal, Darshan, Rajindar singh (darshan's son)

no.

Christians claim to love jesus

Muslims believe they love Mohammad.

I am saying - it's all bullshit.

Even you will say the christian cannot love jesus because he has never met him,

But someone who has never met the master can love the master, right?

Oh yes - thats because he can see him in the inner planes.

It's all belief and deception.

Today you love - tomorrow you leave

just as happened with Thakar.

That is the evidence right in front of you.

All those who left, once professed undying love.

There is a story I heard in sant mat literature of a nizamadeen Auliah
who was accompanied by a dozen disciples.

He went to visit a prostitute and half the disciples left.

He sent for alcohol and the rest left.

in the morning only one disciple remained.

He asked where they had all gone, and the disciple said they all left one by one.

I can guarantee that if some strong negative story came out about any of the current sant mat masters, most of the disciples would leave

So, how is that love?

If you claim to love the guru for no reason at all
(i.e. you are not in it for the benefits)

then how come you don't love other random people you meet on the streets?

How come you don't go to a homeless shelter and help those people?

How come you don't go to a hospital and serve people there who needs help?

Isn't that seva? Or is seva just what you do at the RSSB centre?

Dear Osho

You ask very personal questions without really addressing the issue and that is the internal relationship.

Nevertheless....

I answered all your questions but you did not see it....

When two lovers see each other, the connection is there, automatically, without reason.

Happens all the time, Osho. No expectations, just the bliss of good company.

Yes my life has been spent in group homes, emergency rooms, hospital nursing units. There is no better place to spend one's life. It is a sheer pleasure. But who gave that lifelong pleasure to me? My Master.

You see, I didn't answer your questions the way you wanted. The world isn't really the way you think it is, Osho....

No matter.... As Obama said to Romney 'Proceed forth, Sir!'

Best wishes.

Hi Osho
I was just re-reading what you wrote....

You ask:

"I am just asking, where did this love come from?"

Yes. how sad.

You wrote:
"Do you just love random people walking in the street?"

Osho, Love is a very wonderful and strange thing. We don't choose to love. Real love is bigger than we are. Real love creates us, we don't create it.

Look at the Good Samaritan who helped a stranger. His heart was moved by the suffering of another injured man.

It's a great story, because Samaritans at that time were considered worshipers of a false God.

Yet in this story, Jesus raised this certain Samaritan above the priests and rabbis who walked by and didn't help. It was the Samaritan, worshipping something he didn't understand, who was serving God, Osho!

Rather than point out what to you isn't real love, maybe you should try to find real love.

What does that look like?

Yes, people do work in homeless shelters, they give their time and even their life helping to heal the poor and the indigent, the infirm, the injured. And their greatest joy is in watching strangers whom they may never see again healed, restored, both in body and spirit.

Yes, Osho, our world has so many, many people who give to strangers from nothing but the love that wells up in their heart. Who gave them that love?

Your hypocrisy, which is actually tragic, stems from the fact that you call that kind of love "Hypnosis" and "Delusion" even while you ask "Where is real love?" and decry all other love as selfish.

But the selfish love is the only kind you understand. You think therefore it is the only kind that exists.

Truly, heartbreaking.

You wrote:

"Christians claim to love jesus

Muslims believe they love Mohammad.

I am saying - it's all bullshit."

Well, you would be very wrong, there Osho.

People may not fully understand where that love comes from, but it is divine.

Love of Jesus and The Prophet is very sincere in millions upon millions of people. And it's real.

So many obvious examples you call "delusion" and if not delusion, then selfish.

Sad. Truly.

But the best place to find real love, Osho, is within yourself.

What do you really love? What is worthy of your love? Worthy of a love even greater than the love for yourself?

What is worth sacrificing your life for?

Every soldier, every police officer who sacrifices their life to protect others they have never met walks right in the footsteps of Jesus Christ and every Saint who was ever born, right into Salvation.

How sad you don't see it.

Try taking off the dark glasses..

Spencer wrote:
yes my life has been spent in group homes, emergency rooms, hospital nursing units. There is no better place to spend one's life. It is a sheer pleasure. But who gave that lifelong pleasure to me? My Master.

You see, I didn't answer your questions the way you wanted. The world isn't really the way you think it is, Osho....

Osho Robbins:

So, you are telling me that you go to hospitals and help people there for free? because of your love for the master? or love for them?

Do you work in a hospital, or serve people there for free?

I suspect you happen to work there just so you can answer that you serve people in hospitals.

Osho, you wrote

"Do you work in a hospital, or serve people there for free?

I suspect you happen to work there just so you can answer that you serve people in hospitals."

Well I did answer your question, but you have not answered mine.

Let me repeat the question.

What do you love more than yourself?

When people think they love a guru, it is the same phenomena as when they think they love a movie actor or a performing artist.

It is all in self-created delusion.

How can I make this statement?

Sure, they appear to love. In the case of a movie star, the can feel crazy, at, say, a concert. They can be part of the screaming fans.

But it's not love.

If you have persoanlly met and know the movie star, singer, guru, then there is at least a possibility that it might be love as you have a connection with the actual person, not the concept you created in your mind.

In a spiritual path, it becomes even more convoluted as you might claim an inner vision, and claim to talk to that inner form.

There is a story of Kirpal. He was supposed to give a satsang in Lahore on sunday. On saturday he was passing by the dera and dropped in to see his master. He had a great time and was hoping Sawan would say something about staying, in which case he would hsave sent someone else to do the satsang.

However, Sawan asked him, "aren't you doing a satsang in Lahore tomorrow?"
Kirpal said "Yes" and then left for Lahore, even though he did not want to. He took it as the mauj of the guru.

What I was saying, but you are unable to grasp, is that if you "know" the physical guru, you just have concepts in your head.

Is is similar starting an internet romance. You have just met he person online and spoke to them on the phone,

When you meet them in person - it's going to be different.

They the concepts you created might be blown away.

Then your so-called love disappears.

Of course, in your mind, you can create any delusion you like.

It is the same with the guru.

You say "But the connection is with the inner form"

my reply is, "What inner form?"

Seeing the radiant form is a rarity. Very few ever get there, apart from a glimpse here and there.

You know this is true, because you can just ask yourself if you see the radiant form every day in your meditation.

For most people, the answer is no.

You might think plenty of others do, but it's not true.

Even the teachings say that once you get to the inner form, half the work is done. That is the main job of the disciple.

The truth is hardly anyone ever gets there.

If you doubt this - seriously take a survey of the disciples.

Most have lost hope of ever getting to the radiant form.

It was once a hope, not it's just a dream.

They console themselves with being a secretary, a treasurer or doing some other regular seva.

That is what is actually going on. You might be blind to it - but most the of the followers also know this is true - because it is true for them and for most of the disciples they are friends with.

That is why if they come across someone who claims to have seen the radiant form - they are so happy and will want to meet with him and talk.

All most of the followers have is belief.

And they only go to satsang every sunday out of boredom. Many go to have a nap. You can see them taking a nap, even snoring at times.

I once took a new person to satsang and his question was "Why were so many of them sleeping?"

gives a whole new meaning to the term "wake up" and "awakening"


Spencer. Do you or did you work in a hospital. Or did you go there to serve people out of love.

You asked:
What do you really love? What is worthy of your love? Worthy of a love even greater than the love for yourself

I really love ice cream.

And I love various people in my life including but not limited to my girlfriend.

I don't claim my undying love as disciples do for their guru. It's a work in progress.

Sometimes intense and amazing. Other times questionable.
That's reality.

As for what is worthy of my love. That's an absurd question because if you love you don't evaluate worthiness first.

The very fact that you asked that question shows the reality.

Disciples love their master because he is worthy

What happens when they find out he is not worthy?

Worthy
Is a condition.

So Osho,

You last numerous comments are filled with the phrases like:

"Most of them"
"Most others"
"Almost all disciples"

Have you yourself taken a survey ?

Are you complaining that disciples are in such state and why are they such state?
Or you are not complaining at all and asking question ?
Or you are not asking and you are trying informing the world ?

And you are mentioning the same thing about others over and over again and still maintaining you are not being judgemental. If you are repeating at such an extent then you must be liking or disliking their state. I am sure you are not liking what you are observing so essentially you are disliking it and basically you are just criticising all other disciples.

And what about yourself ? Where do you see yourself ?
Do you find yourself as one of the "most" which you are referring to ?
Or you are trying to prove that the ones who have reached the radiant form are very less ?
Off course they are very less. And you think that by mentioning they are very less and informing the world with all this junk you will progress in your path whatsoever ?

Your comments are starting to completely lose their relevance.

What exactly is the point you are trying to make ?

Love to you brother.

Hi Osho

You mentioned conditional love.
And you allude to unconditional love, but don't mention it.

Most people experience both kinds. Good parents love their kids unconditionally. It's just there.

It's not unusual. And some folks love the Master unconditionally as well. And many understand and witness the Master's unconditional love for them

It's normal to respond in kind.

But it doesn't seem very loving to judge others as being inferior in their love. I think someone who at least admires unconditional love would practice it.

One Initiated wrote:
Your last numerous comments are filled with the phrases like:
"Most of them"
"Most others"
"Almost all disciples"
Have you yourself taken a survey ?

Osho Robbins:

I don’t need to – it is done for me every time people go to the mic and ask for grace,
How many go to the mic to say “Thank you for the amazing journey to Sach Khand. I am fulfilled now and don’t want anything more.”
The evidence is right there at every Q&A

One initiated continues:
Are you complaining that disciples are in such state and why are they such state?
Or you are not complaining at all and asking question ?
Or you are not asking and you are trying informing the world ?

Osho Robbins:

Certainly I am not complaining as I have nothing to complain about.
I am also not asking a question – except where I specifically ask Spencer or yourself.
Am I trying to inform the world?
Hardly.
What I am doing is stating the obvious. Or at least it is obvious to me.
I could of course be mistaken and if I am, please point out the opposite view with some kind of evidence.

This is what I wrote earlier

I am stating quite categorically that you and everyone loves the guru for a reason - and the reason is the benefits.
If you claim to love the guru for no reason at all
(i.e. you are not in it for the benefits)
then how come you don't love other random people you meet on the streets?

It’s a straight forward question which anyone should be able to answer.
You don’t love random people because there is no reason to.
Spence replied that he goes to a hospital to help people with the grace of his master. However he refused to answer if that was his job, which I suspect it was/is.

One initiated goes on:
And you are mentioning the same thing about others over and over again and still maintaining you are not being judgemental. If you are repeating at such an extent then you must be liking or disliking their state.

Osho Robbins:
Why would I like or dislike it? I am calling a spade a spade. I am saying there is no unconditional love here. That is not a good or a bad thing.
It is bad from the disciples point of view if he is convinced and has a lot invested in the view that his love is true. But in reality it is not good or bad.

One-initiated:
I am sure you are not liking what you are observing

Osho Robbins:

Where do you get such an idea from? I am just observing. It makes no difference to me.

One-initated:
so essentially you are disliking it and basically you are just criticising all other disciples.


Osho Robbins:
I am not criticising or being judgmental.
If some people say it is raining and I say it is not raining – I am not criticising the rain or them – just pointing out that it is not raining.
I have nothing invested in whether it is raining or not.
“Raining” or “not raining” are not in a good/bad category.
There is no value attached to the rain / no rain.
It is the same with the statements I am making.

One-initiated:
And what about yourself ? Where do you see yourself ?
Do you find yourself as one of the "most" which you are referring to ?

Osho Robbins:

I am not on that journey at all. That should be obvious. I don’t meditate or have any desire to go to the illusory Sach Khand.

One initiated:

Or you are trying to prove that the ones who have reached the radiant form are very less ?
Off course they are very less. And you think that by mentioning they are very less and informing the world with all this junk you will progress in your path whatsoever ?
Your comments are starting to completely lose their relevance.
What exactly is the point you are trying to make ?

Osho Robbins:
I am not “trying” to prove anything about any radiant forms.
I am not saying anyone is “Less” or “More”
These are all beliefs that exist in your world.

The point I was making was about unconditional love.
That if there is a motive in loving someone (the master) – surely that motive gets in the way.

And the example I gave was the disciples who claimed to love Sant Thakar.
They didn’t love him once the scandal came out. Why not? Where did the love go?

If it was unconditional love, they would still love.
But after the scandal, the motive disappeared and so did the love.

That is the simple point I am making.

It is neither good nor bad.

Hi Osho

Regarding loving people and helping them, that is both career and volunteer work. Both combined, over a lifetime.

Someone who wants to help people who are suffering may become a doctor, a nurse, a technologist, an orderly, a researcher, a therapist, a teacher.

They earn their keep, and also conduct volunteer help as well. And whether paid or unpaid, they always give real service, real care, real therapy that helps others.

They devote themselves to doing well, the best, in work and in volunteer activity.

Hospital, clinic and disabled program employees are also their organizations' greatest source of volunteer hours.

They spend most of their time helping. They work hard day and night, weekends, whether paid or unpaid. They bring their kids in to see the miraculous healing works being done. And in time their children choose to volunteer, and in time they become the next generation of leaders.

So there are hospitals, clinics for the poor, homes for the disabled, all of it, with such people focused entirely on helping.

And if Master so wishes some are gifted to help others to do so as well: to help the whole clinic, the whole program, the whole hospital, all the homeless shelters in the system, all the hospitals and outpatient centers, all the doctors and nurses, therapists, even the secretaries, the whole system to give better care, eliminate errors, improve well being, even reduce mortality rates.

They cannot afford to judge anyone except to see the perfect light within each one.. The light they were given. And seeing things in this way, there is nothing else for them to do but dedicate themselves to that work.

Anyone who tries to pass judgment on these helpers is really foolish. Their pockets are empty and what little they are given they cast away.


Spencer writes:
Regarding loving people and helping them, that is both career and volunteer work. Both combined, over a lifetime.
They earn their keep, and also conduct volunteer help as well. And whether paid or unpaid, they always give real service, real care, real therapy that helps others.
And if Master so wishes some are gifted to help others to do so as well: to help the whole clinic, the whole program, the whole hospital, all the homeless shelters in the system, all the hospitals and outpatient centers, all the doctors and nurses, therapists, even the secretaries, the whole system to give better care, eliminate errors, improve well being, even reduce mortality rates.
They cannot afford to judge anyone except to see the perfect light within each one.. The light they were given. And seeing things in this way, there is nothing else for them to do but dedicate themselves to that work.
Anyone who tries to pass judgment on these helpers is really foolish. Their pockets are empty and what little they are given they cast away.

Osho Robbins:

“If master so wishes…. Some are gifted to help others….”
And what if master does not wish?
Then what happens? They are not gifted?
And what if they have no master?
There are plenty of doctors and volunteer workers who have no master as they are not religious / spiritual.

What has this got to do with any master and his wishes?
If you want to volunteer to help people, you simply do it.
Why bring a master into it?
What if you are one of the “bad guys” – suicide bombers etc
Is that also if the master wishes and his gift?
If he is the doer – then that also is his gift.


Next – regarding “helping other”
I don’t have anything against helping others, paid or unpaid. That was not the point I was making. And why would I judge that?

The topic was about love for the master. I was saying that there is a reason – the benefits.

Sure, doctors, nurses, care workers help others – and get paid for it. If there was no pay – they would not go to work the following day.

Young doctors have even gone on strike protesting about how little they get paid and how many long hours they have to work.

What I am saying is not rocket science – just the simple fact that there is a motivation and a reason for what we do.

And that includes following the path.

We want to reach the goal (Sach Khand, peace of mind, moving up the seva ladder, respect of others, power over others)
There are many diverse reasons why each individual follows his own particular path. I know some sevadars who go to seva simply to get away from the spouse at home. It’s the only time they get a bit of peace and quiet.

Everyone has a reason. If you help others – that too you have a reason for. Maybe you think you will get a reward in heaven. Perhaps you simply enjoy helping. You like the feeling you get when you help. That too is a reason.

Anyone can do any act and say it is done “out of love”
You can just create your own meaning, and that is what each person does. They just say “I am doing this out of love”
The only person they need to convince is themselves – and that is easy.

I have nothing for or against this – I am simply pointing it out.

You can choose to help others or not help others – both are okay.

Everything we do – we do for a reason. Do you agree with that?

Or do you think you do some acts without a reason?

Seva, meditation, helping others, going to satsang, etc everything we do is for a reason.
You get something out of it. It may just be a feeling. That is your reason.

Osho

"I am not on that journey at all"

Doesn't that sound a lie?
What would be the reason fo you posting around 100 comments in last few days on the topic if you think you have moved on and not on that journey. Thinking about HIM is enough to be called as journey.
Or are you doing research on human behavior that you want to figure out some facts ?

Why wouldn't the reason exist in a slightest movement of any smallest invisible particle in the universe ?
There is also a great reason why electrons keeps on vibrating on their place as well as revolving around the nucleus, and the great reason is that Universe will cease if the electrons stops vibrating and revolving.
Why would there not be a reason for a disciple to love the Master?

What you are searching in all the disciples or the persons who are on the beginning of their journey of becoming the disciples... is actually everywhere. You need to see it from that perspective.

I should mention that you are being judgmental there.
And as you explained you have not been judgmental about the disciples, might be if you think!
But, you are surely judgmental towards RSSB and the current Master, just like many other critiques.
Osho, you deliberately passed judgements on Spence's life work. Which was indeed not good, ask yourself in silence, you will feel that.

Comparing the current Master with any other living being would not get you the answers you are seeking. Because, trust me if you can, HE is non comparable. And comparing HIM with the other non-masters will not help either.

You asked about myself in one of the last comments and I can only repeat what I repeated in one of my previous comments that I can not share my real experiences, I shared the aftermath of the experiences - like the bodily experiences (which were ridiculed my manjit if you read it).
I have not met my Master and thus I can not share anything without HIS consent if at all ever I be sharing. (being tagged by reet as bullcrap if you read it).
You asked me if I am spiritually advanced to which I would say: No... because as mentioned by The Great Master: "The Spirituality starts from Par Brahm, anything below that is not spirituality" ... so it may be called as being on journey to realize the spirituality.

As you are observing in other disciples,
just like you believe what you are observing in other disciples, is it hard to believe those who are clearly mentioning their inner experience with HIM ? Off course there will be very very less like them who really realize a recognizable inner state - and even lesser of them who comes to online forums/blogs like these - and even least who share it with others. I feel we should be grateful to them who are sharing it.

You gave the example of Thakar Singh and his disciples and the scandal.
I shall mention here again that Babaji's grandeur is incomparable.
I agree, human beings does have a tendency to love a bigger personality than themselves, like a movie star, a singer, a sports person and also, if the person is of spiritual inclination, then their Master... and the reason for that is they are not complete - call it their benefit if you only understand that word then it's ok. What every being is striving for is completeness.
The Electron, having the negative charge, will only be complete and stable with the corresponding positive charge i.e. nucleus and merging in the nucleus is what it always strive for throughout it's lifecycle - that IS LOVE. And the resultant of the Love is silence, electron's life ends when it meets the nucleus. It becomes one with the nucleus.

Human beings express their feelings of loving The One which they are converging on the big personalities or the master, which I think happened in your case as well earlier as you mentioned. That too is not a fake love either, I would say your love which was rushing in your blood and invoking your Surat was not fake, it was surely only for The One. It might be possible that where you are focusing your love was not rightly merged into The One. But even at whatever level the master is, even if he is not the accomplished one, a person is surely going to get attracted with him.
Even if a disciple has advanced to a certain level of consciousness and someone with say solely in physical meets that disciple, is surely going to get attracted with him - because he must be radiating vibrations of much greater frequency.

Even when a person considers the movie star as The One, and he is rushing with the love in his blood stream towards the star, his love is not fake, his love is towards that one special attribute of The One which is not commonly found in the common persons around. his love is not actually for the movie star, his love is actually for that Godly attribute in the movie star which is not common to observe, may be his/her charisma, acting, beauty, singing whatever - not easy to reproduce in a common person, thus he is feeling that outburst of love for him/her - actually loving on The One - but so well attracted towards that one single attribute of The One which was gifted by The One to this movie star or singer.

If you make your stand slightly flexible to understand these directions, you will understand what I mean here. I might not be explaining my expressions correctly, but let me try again:

I would say there is really nothing like conditional or unconditional love, if it is Love it's always be unconditional. It's about becoming that Godly being (concerning that Godly attribute) which we are not or which we do not possess.

A man loves a beautiful woman, and a woman loves a strong man, what does that love mean?
The man loves the beauty, the softness, the grace of the lady which he misses in himself and as he knows he can not have these attributes within himself (that's how the nature has crafted beings where it has divided the certain attributes b/w men and women) ... whereas he still loves his own muscular nature as well, he loves to have the feminine beauty to be his partner for life so he can really enjoy the wholesomeness of the both worlds of men and women.
Similarly a woman at the same time enjoys herself being a woman, loves the man for his physical strength and the muscular nature, she understands that these two vertically opposite attributes are not possible to be present within one body, she is so happy to marry a man and have him as her partner for life.

A sports lover, everyone sitting in the audience, so much loves watching their star player to play an awesome game say of Tennis (are you tracking Wimbledon ;) ?)
Why do they love their player so much, because they really want to become like their fav player and they surely know their bodily capacity and skills are not upto that level of becoming a player like that or being able to play as great as that player, the always love that player thy always want to play like them and they always want to become like them. That is love. And that also is the love for The One because how that Godly playing capability is present in that player is because it was gifted by The One. So, it's just another Godly attribute a normal person is so attracted towards.

Love of the disciples towards Babaji is not actually towards HIS physical body, it's towards only The One - the attribute here is 24x7 radiations of Spiritual Vibrations of Love.
Obviously it's great deal to be in HIS aura and around HIM - everyone gets affected with those vibrations. A disciple doesn't even know what is happening with him and what exactly he is feeling inside - all being done by HIM actually - but what he expresses is that it's Love - which actually it is - but still not capable enough to understand it's entirety.
And the disciples starts to Love HIM back is because every disciple wants to be like HIM, merge in HIM - they ask for HIS grace so that they can progress on their journey - eventually uplift themselves to be just like HIM - that's Love. Completing the incomplete state.

I am not downplaying the importance of being in HIS aura - I do long for that and that's the best thing for me in the world - I am unable to explain the reasons/benefits behind it - for they are countless and inexplicable.
But I surely disagree with your statements about the personal connection with HIM - only then the disciple starts to feel that love. That's ultra wrong and also right in a subtle way. Because that personal connection has already been made by HIM on the subtle level that's why disciple feels the love - because HE wants the disciple to feel it, if it's about True Master. It's wrong to consider the personal connection on the physical level though. I mentioned it from one example from my family as a comment on other post of reet. There are many disciples who have amazing inner connection with HIM without having met HIM personally even once.

There are few extremely important differences when you love a worldly figure as compared to Loving a True Master:

  • The movie star, the singer, the player can not love you back when you are loving them, but the True Master rightly loves you back every second when you are loving HIM. HE is capable of that.
  • The love for True Master is actually started by HIM and not the disciple - that's a huge difference. And is the biggest fact which entirely charges the equation.

If we think it deeply we will realize that Love can only be given by The One. What all disciples do is that, by HIS grace, start to feel the incompleteness in themselves and feeling of merging in HIM to become The One.
We will cease to exist when we will become The One when we will merge with HIM. That's Love. That will be Love and we will become capable of doing Love when we will become The One.

If you happen to visit Beas, I would suggest you to meet "Master Ji" if you can and you will get your answers and also amazing insights to your questions.


Lots of love to you brother.


~OI

Dear Osho

The reason for love may be a reason you do not understand.

And there is unconditional love as well. That simply arises for no provable or obvious reason. Beauty in nature, alleviating the suffering of others, a child's heartfelt embrace.

You are placing negative judgements on the legitimacy of the love people have for their Master. You cited the love people have for Jesus and the Prophet as "all bullshit".

And there are reasons you are doing that.

You may not know what those reasons are.

There are the reasons for passing judgment upon others that one is aware of ; there are those one publicly states as the justification for doing so; and then there are the subconscious issues they may not be aware of which compel them to do so.

To presume to understand and to condemn the actions of others who are simply exercising their own form of happiness without bothering you simply creates hostility which impedes everyone's rights to pursue happiness in their own way, so long as they do not interfere with anyone else.

Judging others, like trying to argue for the existence or non-existant of God is at best a rhetorical exercise since you are dealing with what is going on in someone else's head when we hardly know even a fraction of what is going on in our own.

Avoiding judging others, and staying focused on our own internal exploration is a simple discipline that helps one protect the amount of happiness life allots to them.

And that internal exploration, the path of meditation or devotional practice, pursued with effort, leads to joy, and is healthy, and even amazing. These are very natural treasures awaiting anyone willing to put forth the effort simply to steer their attention away from these outward judgments and into the internal stimuli, the internal experience.

With focused attention that darkness inside begins to have points of light, to illuminate, and to pull the individual up into sheer ecstacy.

It's been reported for thousands of years, investigated scientifically for decades, and has been proven to be of health value, as well as increase one's well being.

All for the small price of losing the dirt and opening one's eyes to the internal sky.

That practice purifies love so that the practitioner no longer wants what others have, no longer needs to take what others want and desire. Because they have found a greater source of happiness within themselves.

That is enlightened selfishness, in a way. But when we discover that this inner happiness, this higher love is conscious and has been pulling us even when we didn't know it then you can't call it selfish since we don't own it. We aren't the active agent. That love owns us, creates us. And we are giving up ourselves, which we realize in relative terms is worthless, to become that Love. But in truth we aren't doing anything. It pulls us up, it sheds these layers of "me" and "my idea" we once clung to and we are happy to let them go. We are trading plastic pearls for real pearls.

After all is said and done, in my opinion, and experience, ......TRUST, FAITH, and SATISFACTION, in the Master, how ever understood to be, is the best Path to be in.

We can argue who the Master is until Hell freezes over or Heaven is revealed to all, but if we presently are not certain Some ONE or some THING is watching over us, caring for us, protecting us, and that our Fate is not in our own hands, and that any thing we do alone will never satisfy our desires that we know by experience never end, then we will remain unfulfilled,

All of the Scriptures are Tools to aid us in our Journey of the Persuit of happiness as we travel back Home, whether Home be Heaven, Sach Khand, Radhasoami, Animi, One ness, Noneness, or Anyness.

We are here, right now, and the quicker we quit struggling, and just take the Leap of Faith, trusting in a Highter Being than our self to give us exactly what we need, along our Journey, no more, no less, all Grace, then we are Home right now, every moment.

I took that Leap of Faith April 1977, when I asked Christ to take over my life, and I went from Rags to riches since then, and my life has changed so drastically, that it is beyond explanation, as Christ has been revealed in every thing that lives.

" Christ in me, the Hope of Glory" is revealed each and every day.

GSD will be in Fayettville, North Catolina this evening, Thursday July 13th sharing Satsang with his Desciples called to bask in his Glory, to FEEL Aura of Christ in him, the Candle of The Lord , there to ignite the spirit of men, who are called to his presence.

Unfortunately, I am in Branson, Missouri, with a Tour Group, so can not attend, and I am far away. But for certain, every single soul that must be there, WILL be there,....and we other Satsangis will be with them in Spirit.

I recently came across this when searching for sant mat 2.0

It's a posting by Brian back from Jan 2006

So 11 years ago, Brian had noticed, from blog comments that something was changing.

this is the posting:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2006/01/sant_mat_versio.html

Brian later posted about 2.0 and 3.0.

The videos I made were much later, and I didn't really distinguish between 2.0 and 3.0

I was just making the distinction that there is an updated version of the Radha Soami Teachings and I called that 2.0

It's just surprising that so many people can't see that this has happened and secondly they get the idea that I am somehow against all this, when actually I am not. Like Brian, I too see the 2.0 as an improvement and a breath of fresh air.

And just for the record - I did not invent or create the notion of sant mat 2.0.

So no Nobel prizes for me. Brian created the notion a long time ago. My videos were much later (2011).

Jim Sutherland Wrote:

"After all is said and done, in my opinion, and experience, ......TRUST, FAITH, and SATISFACTION, in the Master, how ever understood to be, is the best Path to be in."

Best for who? and how is it best? in what sense?

Trust and faith is not even what sant mat claims is required as it claims that you will experience the truth. Like Kirpal used to say "Seeing is above all"

Although I don't agree with him either.

Seeing is not above all.

These are all beliefs. Sant mat claims that beliefs are not required and you will experience the truth for yourself.

However, when you take a close look at disciples - all you see is a group of people who are lost and looking for answers, hoping their guru will deliver.

Your belief creates your reality, just as in the story I just posted about the prince who did not believe in islands, princesses or God.

Once he saw two of them, he concluded God must also exist.

This is the kind of logic human use and fall in the trap of believing.

Radha Soami ji

its always good to read felow initiates,seekers of sound and light,people who have asked for naam.
meditation on shabd is a daily if not 24/7 exercise and is totally personal, between the master and devotee.
Before initiation we are encouraged to make a thorough study of Sant Mat.
There are many books at satsang and many online see www.rssb.org or info@scienceofthesoul.org
Meditation is the supreme moment when we let go of the material world,do our simran,bhajan and allow the shabd within us to permeate.Any problems with our spiritual exercises we are encouraged to write to
Baba ji
RSSB
143204
Punjab
INDIA
For clarification and advice,we shoudnt share our internal experiences, these are for us and we lose the "bliss of the kiss" an intimate time between lover and beloved. If we read the poetry and books written by the saints,Soami Jii,Kabir,Patu,Sarmad or recent books by Sawan Singh,Jagat Singh,Charan Singh.Gurinder Singh we will appreciate the truth, each master had to do the exercises and progress through persona effort and hardwork.
Reading online gripes by former devotees ony reinforces the blind leading the blind mentaiity.
its like a whole lot of people pissed off with the lecturer because they failed a paper,you know blame the coach not the players actions.
reading Seekers Notes published by RSSB 2015 there are 40 pages designed to inform the seeker what they are in for, for life.Charan Singhs initiation notes were about 5 pages long,emphasis on DOING the simran,bhajan,attending to daily meditation for 2 and a half hours meditation a day,reading sant mat books, 100% living the lifestyle,following the four vows implicitly.
It is like going to University of The Soul. Anyone can dropout of a degree course and diss the University, it takes real guts to steer the mind away from negativity,which is its default position.
My advice to anyone on this sant mat path is TO GIVE IT HEAPS sit,sit,sit write to Baba ji ask him for help. Ive been following Charan Singh since a boy and was initiated in 1982,wrote to dera in 1970,am currently working on a Sant mat book Baba ji asked me directy in the Shamiana at dera to write in 2003, on Polynesian Saints and pre European Spirituality in the Pacific. Baba Ji said there have been many masters in this region and will always be,again in 2007 he told us "You are all masters in your own right" In 2011,2016 in the new meeting room in Hostel 6 when asked How long does it take to reach Sach Khand he smiled and clicked his fingers.It is achievable, and we must work hard,have faith i the path,our own efforts and the more we struggle in meditation the more results we get Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh said it takes less than half a second to complete the withdrawal to sach khand.So both Masters have told us the same thing.Al we need to do is DO the work,Just DO IT..sit in meditation with new vigour face the enemy,just repeat the holy names and fight for our sanity.
The very fact this website exists give testimony to the existence of MIND, and how the mind agent of the negative power wil do anything except ,sit quietly in a chair,repeat something and let go.
Professor Bhatnagar used to say ven up to the fourth stage Kal can stil decieve the disciple.Only when we each Maha Sunn and with the utmost faith in the living master who initiated us do we cross to Sach Khand. No meditation is lost,all initiates have the radiant form,the soul within is protected from the negative powers influence provided WE play our part.There is no such thing as FAILURES in Sant Mat says Sawan Singh in Spiritual Gems, failure in bhajan is a sign of success, we know we are missing something, intrinsically beautiful.It is our feeble minds that enable the negatives to win the day.Take it from me Ive been on the pat for 35 years had 3 nerviews with a Param Sant Satguru I have no doubts,about Sant Mat in my 16 trips I KNOW what I love...ps was banned in 2016 hahaha, was coming off lithium and was completely disturbed.Im allowed back in 2018 on new medication now and stable.The re is Love behind the so called punishment from the guru.He only ants us to SIT in THE LAP OF SAT PURUSH, so no wonder there is diffculty in realising the summit,especially when we refuse to climb.So carry on constructively criticising Gurinder Charan they are masters,what are we,students,and will always be students until WE graduate rom the Masters Class.The end to this caravanserai,the awagawan of 8,400,000.00 species ,one of which is human. We initiates have a great wealth awaiting us,something we love someone we want to become,just imagine becoming One with Sawan Singh,Jagat Singh,Charan Singh,Gurinder Singh. what n opportunity realised huh?Radh Soami Ji.the Master is an Ocean of forgiveness,all we have to do is sit the work has already been done, we just sit in a chair,repeat something and Let Go as Baba ji says.

Hi Richard

Beautiful sentiments.
I am also a Satsangi.
However, it seems to me that there is a great truth in acknowledging the experience and thinking of some of these folks, even our Atheist brothers and sisters. They are doing their best to reject falsehood.

We are taught many things by our Master and yet, we must turn to Him for guidance throughout the day, and moment by moment right action can take its own turn.

There is no rule by which we can judge anyone else. If I have learned one rule of love from my Master, Maharaj Charan Singh, it is that.

How do we know the script written by God Himself for each of these? Their drama, and our role?

If there are no failures in Sant Mat that must include the difficult days, even the years in darkness. It must include Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Atheism, Sufiism. If it is all our Karma, can we judge anyone else? One light, many windows.

But I take your comments in the sentiment of helpfulness you have provided it.

The path is the same.

The audible Spirit that runs through your veins, surges also through mine, and each of these here.

And we are each trying to honor that Life in us, that binds is together, each at our own level of development.

The Sant Mat book that honors this is worthy of reading. I hope you will write it. I will happily read it.

Beautifully explained Sandeep.
Wow

That way HE lets us dip occasionally
of a higher sweetness than where we already are

Even applies to a manmukh who can profit as well , if just trusting HIM
I will not even say
"If you love HIM" because that is a whole new ballgame

It's really a great Path for spiritual morons who can only repeat, , ... people like me
It's almost automatic

777

Njice, . . Brians rules

If we have something to say, we just search for the right associatin chapter

:Quoting 777:

"If we have something to say, we just search for the right associatin chapter"

---
Well put 777.

Here in this post specifically, Osho asked one of the RSSB teachers about sargun/nirgun.

And was given the known answer.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sargun

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Nirgun

-

-
My take on this RSSB Path, Karim
is
like a beautiful woman
you love so much;
and She is kissing you the whole day
..... and tomorrow MORE


777

But I must say
it makes me somewhat anti - advaita

Who would desire a changement to my situation ?
I need 2 to dance the Tango !

-


At 81 of course I m going to die soon,
but I take my parners with me

Strange then to dance the Tango with no body
Must accomodate to that

77

-

Partners >> nice chance to add a Capital

Partners apart from HIM (S) , The Sound, and the Words,
are also the Guys and Dolls adventuring the same Joy


Vive RSSB
and its Masters , so delicious for manmuks.

Again : When the Ocean comes to You as a Lover, . . don't hesitate
be Quick, marry Him

No other other experience can be greater than This

The King's Falcon, FOR NO REASON has landed on your shoulder
and became yours

(Rumi)

:Quoting 777:

"At 81 of course I m going to die soon,
but I take my parners with me"

This sargun and nirgun is heavy stuff.

About as heavy as the Shri Guru Granth Sahib itself. And the only source I read that made any rational sense to me was from a book published by RSSB only.

I once asked Baba Ji a question like this sargun/nirgun theorm, and he basically told me something that was said not only by Guru Nanak but also the old Baba Ji (Baba Jaimal Singh Ji). Thus, back to my reading and my studies -bub.

About as heavy as the Shri Guru Granth Sahib itself. And the only source I read that made any rational sense to me was from a book published by RSSB only.

I like to order that book
I like very much the book from Lekh Puri, . .

7

But to soon probably for me because as opposed to many many
I will be born again

777, have you, in all of your RSSB years of study, every read the Soami Bagh books? If not, any one neglecting to read these books misses actual history of RSSB, Ruhani, and other Sant Mat splits from the original Agra Parent group.

I have every book published in English, which I bought 25 years ago from India. The best History lessons, at least, how Sant Mat developed in the U.S. is the 5 Volume Set of “ Correspondence With Certain Americans.” Each Volume contains about 500 pages plus, and is actual correspondence between Americans and U.K. Satsangis with Sant Das that converted from RSSB, and Ruhani to Swami Bagh. These books are where Mike awilliams obtained most of his information he has on his site. I read these books several times, and have been reading thru the 5 Volume set again. I am half way thru Vol. 3 again.

Interesting stuff to read, but reading it all again reinforces why I never was drawn to the Agra Parent group, in spite of Sant Mat starting there.

If you have not read the 5 Vol. Set, you should try to do so, before you leave your body this time. The books used to be free in pdfs on line. Not sure if they are still available. they are “Treasures beyond measure”

Other Seekers still on the fence, or hooked to Charan’s Bulldozer Chsin should read these books as well.


Jim Sutherland

This is the Link to the free Soami Bagh Sant Mat Books. It takes a little experimentation maneuvering how to down lad the different books, but mst f them are there.

http://radhasoamifaith.org/EnglishBooks

Jim Sutherland

:Quoting 777:

"I like to order that book"

The question I asked Baba Ji was on how one once initiated, would know they've reached, or come closer to nirgun or "the goal".

Soami Ji's Sar Bachan Prose:
http://www.scienceofthesoul.org/product_p/en-036-0.htm

It has a chapter on weighing one's inner progress. I can't remember the exact pages, but being a shorter less lengthy book -I can remember that it said we would know we were advancing spiritually by a change in our actions, more tolerance to bad situations, kindness to others beings and creatures in the creation, and among other things; a growing love for our fellow human brethren.

All your posts on this here blog 777, show that you may just be finishing up the nirgun as we speak!

Hi Karim

Could u mail me your email address to my 7.77@mail.com
just to annoy Brian not to much with lots of "@religious@" stuff all here

Hi karim

First is for sure that I'm a complete zero at the points of obeing and achiving
But as for experiences: I got them al for free

That combi however makes it possible to tell some of them
which include the nirgun stuff
As for books and the book you mentioned is from Agra , ( i will order ) , Yes I hv them all,
but I'm allways so curious of HOW Mystics explain

My own experience which is a kind of 24/7 state has peaks and valleys
has a solid basement which are the 5 words
The almost first time I did RSSB meditation I entered with the help of the Sound in a fantastic place Charan being my Guide
It's not possible to describe further but it surpassed all literature on this subject

Also Charan was/is not alone
His Master Sawan, Jaimal, , and Jagat too, ( a master that I didn't much appreciated before , -so strict, so above my pay-grade- , Ok many many Masters were/are there, and Seth Shiv, and Tulsi
ALL DIVINE but ALL very their own characters

and the Sound then ( sometimes ) swells to an extatic point , so far that
if Charan didn't temper it , I would really physically die from happiness

So, I don't really need the books, but I search for language that can explain because I cannot

Many many many RSSB Satsangis before all this happens are thrilled by the creations
they come to see at sides and below
but I got my way, my Master, My Sound
and
when it first happened I wrote a recommended letter to Charan
explaining it, with my probably stupid remark
"Now I have YOU, . . I don't need God anymore !"
I asked not to answer me

The great lesson I took is that the individual Soul will never parish

That in the same way we can't understand "no time" and "everlasting"
we just can't grep how ONENESS combines with INDIVIDUALITY

Although I know, I saw/see : books are often interesting and inspiring

Also when the Almighty constantly collects Zillions of such Saints
and disciples
adding to HIS LOVE
How could S/HE be a stable non dynamic thing

No, S/HE is more like a roaring big bang of which his Powers make zillions per second

Great is our Sound>Light processus, one of xillions of of His/Her Methods to accumulate Love
The Adi Granth describes it so very well

777

777,

I sent you an email.

Onward, in respects to the poster of this blog I'll try to stay on subject. And to the subject of nirgun:

I make a wish that all satsangis continue with the bare minimum or more than 2 1/2 hours naam meditation to reach the 'goal'. Also, that exers may one day return to naam reaching the same 'goal' and any new sincere seeker ultimately attain this same 'goal'.

Radha Soami

The Bible teaches Seekers to “Tithe.” There are 24 hours in each day, so the Tithe is 2.4 hours of our time, seeking the Lord in Meditation.

The Bible teaches Seekers to “ Test” the Lord, by Tithing, and not to rob him. If we Tithe, He will “ Open The Windows of Heaven. “Malachi 3: 8,9,10

SPIRIT is Anti- Matter,...i.e. dispises all matter, because matter seduces SPIRIT and incarcerates IT in prison bodies.

Soul is Matter, that incarnates SPIRIT, and drags SPIRIT to Charausi, i.e. The Wheel of 84 to be Co-Creators of Maya, , i.e. Creation.

The Key to Open the Prison Gate of Maya to release SPIRIT from the clutches of the Prison Warden, i.e. Soul, is Meditation .

Solving the Mystery is wakng up to find out WHO the Creator is, and if we, as Seekers, wish to remain Co- creators with the Creatoir,....or,

Abandon Creation by Mediation to return to SPIRIT, the Champion of Anti- Matter, i.e. Creation.

Enlightend Sant Matters are actually Gnostics.

Jim Sutherland

Master in disguise?

dem·i·urge
ˈdemēˌərj/Submit
noun
a being responsible for the creation of the universe, in particular.
(in Platonic philosophy) the Maker or Creator of the world.

(in Gnosticism and other theological systems) a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.

So,.....WHO is RADHASOAMI,,.....i.e. “Lord of The Soul”?

So, WHO is SAT NAM, the Ruler of Sach Khand?

Only SPIRIT is Eternal, uncreated, Timeless, and Supreme.

Does Gurinder Singh, Ishwar Puri, Rajinder Singh have the Keys to Eternal SPIRIT?

If so, what is the Mantra, or Pass Word to enter the Eternal SPIRIT’s Kingdom Within?

Jim Sutherland

The four principles of Sant Mat teach us how to live a moral and spiritual life imo. My question is why this urgent quest to find Sach Khand and live in a realm governed by Sat Purush, a so called God. I don't particularly want to merge into another God's realm, it may be another trap just like this realm we are in now. Just how many Gods are there!

Also, why are people so willing to hand over their own spiritual power to another.

I came upon this marvellous quote when I looked up Epicurus who was mentioned in another thread.

"It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain by himself" Epicurus

Jen writes,...”I don't particularly want to merge into another God's realm,”

Me: According to the Bible, Jesus, the Living Master of his time, ( for the Hebrews marked for him ) took human form to initiate those marked souls, then he quickly departed, and according to the Book of Hebrews, he “ sits at the rght hand of the Father, as their High Priest, interceding for those he initiated. )

So, Jesus, never merged, in to his Father. He intercedes for those he initiated, as all Living Masters do for those they initiate, including Charan for us!

Jesus was the Allegory, that Seekers may take as an example of how ALL Seeker souls, may become liberated SPIRITs, and when they die, leaving their physical bodies, may either stay with The Father, as Spirit, or, voluntarily choose to return as another reincarnated soul, taking on a new human body, to become a Livng Master, to initiate unenlightned, marked souls, still in body prisons and slaves of the lower god of this world, i.e. Jehovah, Brahma, Satan,...etc.

Jesus was just another example of the age old Allegory, as the book “ “ Sixteen Crucified Saviours” explains. Of course, that is only one of thousands of other books in recorded history that tries to record both, Esoteric Allegories, for the Seekers, and the historical stories, to fool and keep the slaves in material creation.

Once a soul is set free, and the SPIRIT rules, than, enlightened humans in bodies, may experience life on earth, ( which is a monsterous hell) , but may enter and leave the material and Spiritual realms thru the resolving door of the Third Eye, or the “ Tenth Gate” , as we are taught by the Master in Sant Mat. ( while we are experiencing thru human bodies )

When we die, and discard these physical bodies, then we may be offered the choice to stay with The Father, or return here to help marked souls escape this hell.

Jim Sutherland

Hi Jen :
Good questions.

You wrote

"My question is why this urgent quest to find Sach Khand and live in a realm governed by Sat Purush, a so called God. I don't particularly want to merge into another God's realm, it may be another trap just like this realm we are in now. Just how many Gods are there!

Also, why are people so willing to hand over their own spiritual power to another.

I came upon this marvellous quote when I looked up Epicurus who was mentioned in another thread.

"It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain by himself" Epicurus"

Here's my take on your questions.

1. Desire to live in greater happiness. When you become aware of it, it is natural to desire it. If you find you came from there, and it's your actual home, then you want to go there. Soul is always in this state. The urge is always there, hidden deep in the subconscious. Meditation layer by layer exposes what is already there. Including the fact that you are there now and this is just a nightmare... The dream you know you are stuck in because you know you are dreaming. Generally, that is the dream you happy to leave or. But worse still the nightmare you think is real, until it's over. It is natural to leave poverty when you realize you have an amazing inheritance.

2. When you realize you are enslaved by the past and that is your master, naturally you ask the same question, why submit to another authority? Even the authority of blind addiction and conditioning, and all the masters that conditioning forces you to submit to. Then you see that the person liberating you, first by giving you the tools to see your own state, is in fact your liberator.

How can you people talk like this is all fact? That you know what happens after death?

Hi Neon

You wrote
"How can you people talk like this is all fact? That you know what happens after death?"

Actually, reading the comments above you see a range of opinions on this subject.

Anyone who speaks of something as fact can only be speaking of their experience and what they have concluded from that experience.

What happens after death is of interest to many people. That interest takes them into investigation, with varying results.

It comes down to making your own conclusions. But that also depends upon the depth and sincerity of your investigation.

When Brian writes that his experiences over decades of meditation is that nothing he experienced is evidence of the events after death, he is sincere.

When mystics write of their experience of spirit, the creation and God through their work of prayer and meditation, they are sincere.

Then, the matter of what to believe becomes a personal matter. If it's very important to you, you investigate, you test, you try, and like a good scientist, if you believe your hypothesis is correct, you keep testing until you have your proof. Or you conclude nothing is there.

In all cases it becomes a personal statement about who you really are.

In the process you find that out.

To Neon,.....maybe your only biased against Sant Mat Philosophy?

If you have a preference for Scientific experimentation of life after death, or Out of Body Soul Travel, you might take a look at Robert Manroe’s books and research.

Then, if your mind is still closed, than I’ll just write you off as a Troll Skeptic.

Here is a book, ( you might even find it free, as a pdf, if you search ) , written by one of Bob Monroe’s early Consciousness Explorers, that records her actual Scientific Tests during the many times she was taken out of nody in One of Monroe’s Text Chambers using his patented “ Hemi Snync “ Sound Recordings.

Check out the Table of Contents in the Book, and read the Customer Reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F7SJ3VM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1#customerReviews

Jim Sutherland

Sorry guys, (Jim and Spencer) I just switch off when I see Jesus this, Bible that. I seem to have an aversion to Christianity and I still cannot understand how you both are still stuck in this religious paradigm. You also seem to have a religious attitude towards Sant Mat, which I never had. For me it was a path to follow to discover the truth of who I am, why am I here, what is this weird world because I don’t feel I belong here, and what happens after death.

I’ve released the belief in the necessity of following a guru because like I say, this is giving away one’s personal power to another, and quite frankly I am not impressed by either Charan or Gurinder.

Spencer you say: "Desire to live in greater happiness. When you become aware of it, it is natural to desire it. If you find you came from there, and it's your actual home, then you want to go there. Soul is always in this state. The urge is always there, hidden deep in the subconscious.”

Well brother, this has always been my strongest desire and search since I was young and my soul is always in this state of longing to go home, not only deep in my subconscious but fully in my conscious self awareness. This is my life. The only thing I don’t agree with in your comment is to “live in greater happiness”. Happiness is not my goal. Happiness seems to me to be too superficial and I want more than that. I am aiming high :)

Hi Jim, just wanted to say that I love Robert Monroe’s books and really enjoyed reading about your OBE experiences that you recently posted.

Hi Jen

You wrote

"Sorry guys, (Jim and Spencer) I just switch off when I see Jesus this, Bible that. I seem to have an aversion to Christianity and I still cannot understand how you both are still stuck in this religious paradigm."

The reason is mystical. Some of the biblical writings and those of the early Church Fathers appeal to me as beautiful references to my own internal experiences. Maharaj said we are all following Christ, and I can see that for myself. I follow Christ. That's really who Maharaji and Baba Ji are.

When I read something I've witnessed, I love that. It's sacred. But obviously this is completely dependent on one's own experience and place of understanding.

For example, song of songs is the allegory of Christ, but in that book Christ is a woman! Yet she and the man come back together marry over and over, raising her beloved time and again into spirit, and he mourning her death over and over, four separate times. Finally, in the last chapter, she returns as a child and calls for her beloved to return home once and for all.

Personal experience reveals a meaning that is right on the written page, but entirely invisible to others with no associations. And it is stunning.

Hopefully this helps answer your question.

Thanks Spencer for your reply and its okay, we are all different. I'm not into religion and even Sant Mat is too religious for my liking.

I like the mystical path and enjoy reading literature like Dances with Wolves (loved the movie) and Carlos Castaneda books. This is my kind of spirituality, a kind of connectedness with the spirit of mother earth, nature and animals and also the Cosmos. More about energy and feelings than the mind. Life is a dance. Maybe I'm more of a pagan than anything else.

I just looked up pagan and really like and agree with this "Pagans pursue their own vision of the Divine as a direct and personal experience." Also "The Goddess: Pagan religions all recognise the feminine face of divinity".

Maybe I had a previous life as a pagan and was crucified by religious fanatics. Would explain my dislike of Christianity.

Castaneda quote.: “The dying sun will glow on you without burning, as it has done today. The wind will be soft and mellow and your hilltop will tremble. As you reach the end of your dance you will look at the sun, for you will never see it again in waking or in dreaming, and then your death will point to the south. To the vastness.”

Hi Jim
Love reading your comments. I forgot that we had a shared admin with that group. I only happened to read where MM died as I had stopped reading on Lane's group. I really think he used alter egos to post and raise hell.

No way was he silent but he didn't moderate that's true. I got chased away and I think the vile directed at MM sorta contributed to his early demise. I stopped posting there because the criticism directed at me was over the top and was affecting my health.

Cheers
Netemara

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