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May 13, 2017

Comments


    To : OSHO ROBBINS


Dear Osho Robbins,

Thanks so much for these last few posts. Especially the shorter one, posted June 15 at 12:30 AM, where you actually describe your post-Realization “experiences” (for want of a better word ; I mean what it actually feels like post-Realization). As you may be aware, with your extensive reading, what you say seems to correspond very closely with Theravadin accounts of the Buddha’s post-Nirvana condition, the interval in between the point when he had his Realization and the point when, a few days later, he finally got up to seek out his first five disciples (or was it four? I forget the details, but you know what I mean).

Except those ancient accounts are so overlaid with myth and so embroidered with poetry that it becomes difficult to sift fact from fancy (always assuming there is a core of fact there, which again is by no means certain).

Sorry, I digress. There is enough meat in your comments to keep us both fully occupied, without me wandering off into by-lanes of incidental thoughts. Let me try to focus, focus, focus.


FIRST, LOOKING AT THIS PURELY IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING YOUR PERCEPTION


Like I said, the first “level” of my discussion with you I see purely in terms of my simply understanding what you have to say about your perception of Oneness. That is, for me, by far the more important of the two aspects of this discussion. (The other “level”, the other aspect, is to explore your subsequent worldview, consequent to that perception. That is where our debate on subjectivity comes in. But we’ll get to that later. That is important too, but less important -- to me -- than simply understanding your basic perception of Oneness.)

I enjoyed going through the second installment of your ONE-NEXT dialog as well. I see what you’re doing here. Both my direct association with you these last few days (association online, I mean) as well as Manjit’s direct hint in his comment to me, indicate that what you’re trying to do is to give me an indirect idea of something that cannot be directly described. I get that. You’re also giving me an idea of what the actual process of triggering Oneness might be like, in fact you say as much clearly in that last ONE-NEXT dialog of yours. Thank you for that perspective, Osho Robbins, I appreciate it.

Actually what I am myself trying to do here is to get an overall idea, as detailed as feasible within this forum, of your particular perception. Towards that end, may I take our conversation on to a somewhat more focused channel? I’ve learn a good bit from you, and there were a few other specific things I wanted to ask you, if I may.

The first of these things I wanted to ask you is this :

On mulling over all of what you’ve described and said here, and Manjit did as well, one thing that occurs to me is this : that although we seem to be using the two terms as near-synonyms in our discussion here, we’re talking, basically, of not one but TWO perceptions : first, the perception of nothingness, and second, the perception of oneness. I’d like to explore that particular nuance a bit further with you, please.

Let me highlight that for your easy reference :


Follow-on Query 1 : It seems to me that there are two separate aspects to your realization. The first is the realization of NOTHINGness. And the second is the realization of ONEness. Talk more to me about that, would you?


The first of these (nothingness) is fairly easy for me to understand, in principle that is. The current scientific paradigm seems to be pointing out that our “self” is basically a fiction, it has no real existence per se. It is simply an interesting by-product of the model-building “software” that our brain comes equipped with, and which can be explained satisfactorily by evolutionary processes. It is fairly easy to conceive (although no doubt far from easy to actually realize) that such “absence of self” may be intuited first-hand as well (as well, that is, as intellectually understood). Should that happen, then there we have it : your realization of NOTHINGness.

But it doesn’t stop there, does it? We seem to have another, bigger realization that comes up next : that of ONEness!

So how does that work? Is it that one first realizes Anatta, no-self, and subsequently Tat-tvam-asi/Tathata, Oneness? Or is it that both realizations are simultaneous, perhaps different aspects of the very same thing? Can you have one without the other, Anatta without Tat-tvam-asi, or the latter without the former? Your considered views on all of this, please. And drawing on your personal perceptions and personal thoughts, please, not scripture or long-dead seers. No offense meant, and I hope we have fully put our initial misunderstandings behind us by now! It is just that I don’t much care for scriptural quotes or third-person perspectives of seers, at least not when I have the rare chance of engaging with first-hand flesh-and-blood perception.


Follow-on Query 2 : Why “guide others to this nothingness”? What for? Of what use is this after all?


You talk of putting on the battered remains of your ego, and setting off to guide others towards this nothingness/oneness that you have yourself discovered.

(And I understand what you say, that this is not the only option, but just one of three options. The Buddha was faced with a similar cross-roads, per Theravadin lore. You may choose to simply give up your body and life, just sit there under your Bo-tree and let it all dissolve away ; or you may “bring the Buddha back to the earth”, as you say, and “draw water, cut wood” again ; or you may guide others towards nothingness. I’m trying to understand the purpose and the implications of this last option now.)

And, as you can see, that takes us back to the question I’d asked earlier : What is the whole purpose of all this? What use? Because if there’s no use to this, then there’s no reason to ask anyone to do this either, is there, or even to indicate to them that such a thing might be?

Now wait, I can understand what use someone like Manjit may have for this. His unsought-for “spiritual” experiences were driving him out of his mind, and he was trying to somehow find some kind of structure to understand what was happening to him, to make some sense of it all. To someone as desperate as he, sure, I can see what kind of use this “nothingness / oneness” might be.

But surely that’s very rare, extremely rare? Vanishingly rare, even? For most other people, ordinary people, for our friend Joe Everyman whom I’d introduced in this discussion earlier, for instance … someone who is more or less materialistic, more or less apatheistic, not overly concerned with religion ; someone who is fairly successful and fairly happy (although that also means, naturally, fairly unsuccessful at times and fairly unhappy at times) ; in short, your regular ordinary Joe kind of people : why introduce this nothingness/oneness business to people at all?

Why should Joe Everyman want to aspire for, or try for, this realization of oneness/nothingness? And why would you want to spend time and effort guiding him towards that end? What for? Why not just let him be? (And obviously, no one is trying to *force* Joe to meditate or realize nothingness, that isn’t what I’m saying, at all. In fact Joe may even actually walk up to you ; because he is curious, as all/most humans are, and he is mildly and casually interested in very many things : in cosmology, for instance, and in quantum physics, in neuro-science, in cutting-edge medical research, and also in spirituality and religion and “all that”. But even then : even if he should himself come up to you asking, not desperately like the one or two Manjits you may encounter in your entire life, but kind of half-seriously-and-half-casually, even then why would you even *want* to “guide” Joe towards your nothingness, if the poor chap stands to gain nothing from it? Not the vanishingly rare Manjits -- who will number in the ones and twos in all of your life probably, low single digits, if that -- but our ubiquitous Joe?)


Follow-on Query 3 : After we die (that is, after our heart stops and brain stops, and our body is consigned to earth or flame), then will there be any difference at all in what happens to the Realized person and the ordinary non-Realized person?


This is just a variation of my follow-on query # 2, but after you’ve tackled that, I’d like you to explain this to me separately, please, to cover this specific aspect of this issue.

Like I remember asking you earlier, will ordinary Joe and ordinary Me be any more alive or any less alive after we die than will realized You? (Or, if you insist on calling yourself ordinary, then between ordinary Joe and ordinary Me on the one hand, and ordinary-but-Realized you on the other?) And will our post-death condition be any different? (If our post-death condition is nothingness, non-existence, then we’re all of us equally nothing. But if our post-death condition is Oneness, then very many options and possibilities present themselves. I’d like you talk about what you think happens. Again, using your own thoughts and words and perceptions, and as far as possible avoiding scripture and dead-seer quotes.)


Osho Robbins, I’ll stop here for now. I’ve still not gone into the second part of what I want to discuss, which is full implication of the subjective nature of your worldview (despite your direct perception of Oneness). I’ll leave that for later on. That second part is important too, certainly, very important, but to me the first part, understanding your direct perception, that is by far the more important aspect of our discussion. And I’d rather not divert our attention from this first part yet. (And your very last comment here, about the nature of reality, falls under that category, so I am not touching on that just yet.)

After I’ve understood a bit more about your Realization perception, we can then move on to the next part, which is your worldview consequent to your perception and the implications of the essentially subjective nature of such worldview. (That sounds ominous, I know, in terms of setting the stage for a long-drawn-out discussion --- but no, it need not take all that long : just one considered and detailed response from you now to this particular post of mine, and one more focused exchange about the subjectivity issue afterwards, that should just about nail it.)


Perhaps you could take each of my four follow-on queries, one by one, quote them in full, and then put in your considered response to each? No offense meant when I say that, Osho Robbins ! Like I said, I do hope we’re past our initial misunderstanding now, and hopefully won’t need to refer back every time to that unfortunate unpleasantness! I’m NOT trying to unnecessarily dictate the mode of this discussion, or to demand from you, on whim, some particular kind or mode of answer, or anything like that! It’s just that doing what I suggest can help keep this conversation focused, and stop it from unraveling off into an endless loop. That is why I have, in schoolboy fashion (or, alternatively, in legalistic fashion), actually gone and called my questions “follow-on query #1”, “follow-on query #2”, etc, and highlighted them clearly in bold letters and set them apart, so that there is no way you will miss them or get confused. Just copy each, in full, and (after reading all of what I have to say about it) put in your full response underneath. Each of them, one by one by one. Just one single focused and detailed comment from you, addressing all of that, would, I should think, then be ample, for you to fully convey to me the broad gist of your perception proper.


P.S. I’m loving this discussion, and learning from it. You’re the one supplying the knowledge, and I am the one absorbing it (or trying to), but I do hope that you’re enjoying this as well. I’ll look forward to your response. But let me not take your participation for granted ! If for any reason you’re pressed for time, and/or you generally need some time to think through and formulate a detailed and complete response, then just let me know and we’ll take a break for a few days, a week, whatever you are comfortable with -- if at all you want to, I mean. Although like I said, I sense we may be very close now to wrapping this up, already, all of it, with just two or three more focused posts (one comprehensive post regarding your perception, now, basis the follow-on queries I have asked here ; and then after that one more focused exchange about the subjectivity/objectivity aspect).

-

Manjit :

""How come there are so many successors of Kirpal? and they are not friends. ""

Cause K was not a guru

Generally ONLY accept a Guru when You fall deeply in surprising Love
(not a little bit )

777

-

777

Perhaps Kirpal Singh was not a perfect master. Personally I don't rate any of them.

By your logic, Swami Ji was also not a perfect master as he had over six successors.

Jaimal was not even an authorised successor.

Swami Ji did not mention him even once as successor.

When asked directly he mentioned Rai Saligram, Seth Pratap, and others, but not Jaimal. Even Jaimal himself did not claim successorship until 13 years later.

In the meantime he was just initiating for the others - on their behalf.

Charan Singh also was not a real successor because he had no spiritual progress - by his own admission

Appreciative Reader,

here is a link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8MXJmbQjsc&index=4&list=PLg0JenGU8L66HDxbeJH6aS1e_SSOt1oX6

it's a from a training back from the 70's called EST

This guy Werner Erhand - went to Osho and various other people and then condensed what they were saying into a 4 day (60 hours) seminar than was transformational

the results people had were shocking to say the least

he didn't claim anything mystical

instead he said that be the end of the last day you would "GET IT"

everyone wondered what "IT" was and he would not define it

this is from a movie where it shows parts of what it was like to attend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5XYNQv6F_o


Why am I posting all this for you?

Because there is simply no way that you could ever figure out what it would be like to attend by asking questions to those who have attended.

Some things you just have to go through

then decide

Appreciative Reader,
perhaps you need to become more of an "Appreciative Listener" and listening is more productive than reading.

is you listen to this video at 2h 10min - 2h 15mins

in those 5 minutes what Werner is communcating - would most likely be impossible to communicate through comments on a blog

Also - if it is necessary to convince a person then something of the level of what Werner is talking about becomes impossible to communicate.

He is also very exact in his language and uses words in a specific way so it becomes almost impossible to comprehend him if you don't first accept the basic premises he bases everything on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk2kFmjPWm0

for example
"Your life is empty and meaningless
and it's empty and meaningless that it is empty and meaningless"

You are devoid of meaning

Some people want to use that as a justification for doing nothing
If you do that - then you don't "get it"

You can't use it

if you say, therefore... then you don't get it

and remember I didn't say it was true

and I know you think it's an alternative thing to believe (i.e. another belief)

All the above only takes him just 1 minute to say.

and his talk is three hours long.
and his seminar is 60 hours long.

how can you get that by asking and getting answers to some questions.

He makes a big thing about "Your Story" - your version of reality
which is says is fiction - but appears to he truth to you.

Osho Robbins,......if you really are convinced that we are all nothing but dreams that don't exist, because there is no space and time, why do you wear a watch? Do you work? Are you on any time schedules, for events you attend? Just curious. I saw your watch in your you tube videos, and wondered why a Phantom that only exists in a dream of Maya that is timeless, wears a watch. Are you a Time Traveler from the future, or a Spook from the past that missed the Sach Khand Express?

What is you belief on the testimonies of those who have seen Charan hoover over Gurinder Singh in Satsang, very clearly, as Gurinder's image morphs in to Charan Singh, some times as a 100 foot tall image, as 777 has posted here, seeing it happen in Switzerland? I have private testimonies of others, as well, who have seen Charan's very clear Astral Body in various sections of the Dera, even recently, and some one posted a couple of days ago on RSS that even David Lane said he witnessed Gurinder morph in to Charan's image. What is your take on this phenonomon? Do you think it is some kind of fraud, or a trick, dreamed up by Gurinder or his Staff to dupe gullible people attending his Satsangs? Do you think they are Holographic Projections from a 3D Projector used to fool College Professors with Ph.Ds like Lane, and other educated, grounded Westeners like 777 and others I know who have witnessed Charan Singh's image at the Dera and else where? You poo pooed my testimony of Charan's visit to me in Meditation, but these other testimonies by reliable witnessed were seen in broad day light, with open eyes. What's your explanation?



.

Osho Robbins, thanks for your comments and those audio-visual links. Like I’ve said a few times within this thread, I have some issues at my end with accessing AV content, so I’ll have to give those a miss for now. (I understanding what you’re saying, speaking with a person does give you access to so many non-verbal cues that one misses out on when communication is only verbal/textual. That seminar that you mention, the one that apparently “guarantees” that one would “get” it -- presumably in a way different from how one had got it before having gone through the seminar -- that sounds especially interesting. A talk like that is different because it actually promises/guarantees transformation.)

I’m saving all of my conversations within this thread, your AV links included, for reference later on.

Meanwhile, I await your comprehensive response to the follow-on queries I posted in my comment yesterday.

.

Jim wrote:
Osho Robbins,......if you really are convinced that we are all nothing but dreams that don't exist, because there is no space and time, why do you wear a watch?

Osho R
I am not convinced - I know.

It is not some new belief I have acquired.

Time and Space and everything in it - all forms and everything that exists within Time and Space is all ILLUSION.

It all exists in thie moment - but it is not REAL. So of course I can wear a watch and have a job.

Incidentally I don't watch and don't do a job - but that is not because there is no time and space.

Just because there is no time and space ultimately doesn't mean that this body and mind cannot function in the world of maya.

I just play the game the same as you play.

There is just no significance to anything.

I am not trying to be saved ot to attain some great spiritual status, or to get to Sach Khand

Appreciative Reader asks:
And, as you can see, that takes us back to the question I’d asked earlier : What is the whole purpose of all this? What use? Because if there’s no use to this, then there’s no reason to ask anyone to do this either, is there, or even to indicate to them that such a thing might be?
Okay – I will now answer the question you have asked so many times.
Of what use is this thing (Realisation, awakening, enlightenment,.. whatever)
First let’s understand – “Of what USE” – to WHO?
If you are talking about “useful to the EGO” – then I will say it is positively detrimental, rather than useful.
The EGO constantly wants benefits. That is its nature so it is unavoidable.
So the EGO is asking what the benefits are – and the answer is there are NONE.
In fact, quite the opposite – this is suicide for the EGO.
Next understand what the EGO is.
It is not “Out there”. It is not something that belongs to you. It is not “MY EGO”
It is ME – the one I am familiar with. The person I identify as ME is the ego. The one that goes around using my name – that’s the ego.
For all practical purposes it is YOU (or ME)
So – this thing is not of any benefit to the EGO.
But like Manjit aptly pointed out – it is priceless
So when I say it is of no benefit to YOU – I mean your EGO – which effectively means YOU because that is the only YOU that you are aware of.
So then WHO is it beneficial to? And in what way?
Hmmmm…. How the heck do I answer that one?
In ultimate reality - the notion of BENEFIT does not exist.
So the ONENESS does not benefit.
However, there is a huge benefit – I just don’t know who to assign it to.
Maybe you can help me because I am lost in trying to answer
The search for whatever you were looking for it totally over. There is no possibility of seeking again.
A kind of peace or rest comes over you. There is nothing more to do or achieve or seek. The Search is finally over – not because you have found – but because God has died and you were at his funeral and he definitely didn’t rise again.
The Buddha called it NIRVANA because you need a new word to signify total emptiness

Appreciative Reader,
I am aware that I have not taken this point by point - but these questions require a more in depth answer

So I am taking it one at a time.

and I am not really communicating information to you - my answers can be considered nonsensical - I don't claim they are answers

Thanks for your responses, Osho Robbins.

pLEASE use as many posts as you wish, across as much time as you need, in whatever manner and style you feel you can best address the issues, and with as many revisits to each post/answer as you feel necessary.

Just let me know when you're done answering. uNTIL then I won't interrupt you, or disturb your flow, by responding.

Osho, please respond to my last question you didn't answer. I value your opinion, and is why I asked. Skip the Dream response, and give me your " opinion" of these occurrences in the Maya here and now.
From prior post........ What is you belief on the testimonies of those who have seen Charan hoover over Gurinder Singh in Satsang, very clearly, as Gurinder's image morphs in to Charan Singh, some times as a 100 foot tall image, as 777 has posted here, seeing it happen in Switzerland? I have private testimonies of others, as well, who have seen Charan's very clear Astral Body in various sections of the Dera, even recently, and some one posted a couple of days ago on RSS that even David Lane said he witnessed Gurinder morph in to Charan's image. What is your take on this phenonomon? Do you think it is some kind of fraud, or a trick, dreamed up by Gurinder or his Staff to dupe gullible people attending his Satsangs? Do you think they are Holographic Projections from a 3D Projector used to fool College Professors with Ph.Ds like Lane, and other educated, grounded Westeners like 777 and others I know who have witnessed Charan Singh's image at the Dera and else where? You poo pooed my testimony of Charan's visit to me in Meditation, but these other testimonies by reliable witnessed were seen in broad day light, with open eyes. What's your explanation?

Appreciative reader.
I might take all the time in the universe to respond. Or no time at all. Since I am saying there is no time maybe it's doesn't matter how long it takes.

Feel free to comment as I go along too as one way communication is not too productive. Also I like tangents. As in going off on one.

So you might need to bring the topic back on track.

And remember I don't have definitive answers

I will start when I get back home in about an hour

I feel like another chapter of the one-next conversation might be taking birth.

When I used to give talks for Rssb the head guy told me to prepare my talks.

I told him I do, but when I start talking what I have written remains on the paper and I go off where the moment takes me.

I don't think he was too impressed but what did I care.

Ugh I don't enjoy giving the talk why would I bother

It is the end of all strugggle, all searching and all trying to achieve and attain. When there is nothing - what can you attain?

If you discover - that life in empty and meaningless......
and there is nothing - just emptiness......

at first you might get upset - as in "so I did all this for nothing?"

But once you truly realize emptiness - it goes much deeper than you might imagine

because all your life has been concerned with
struggling...

achieving & attaining
acquiring & possessing
collecting and accumulating
more and more and more.....

a worldly person seeks wealth, name, fame, possessions, the perfect relationship. etc

a spiritual person is no different. he seeks all the above - except his greed has gone out of control

Now he has added God to his list. Now he wants not only a big mansion over here - but one in the afterlife too.

He wants the master to come and save his soul at the time of death.

He wants to get to Sach Khand and have tea with Sat Purush and his Brother
Anami Purush.

Or maybe a milkshake in case Sat purush doesn't drink tea.

The spiritual person does not gain any peace - he is constantly in turmoil because anyone who is seeking is hungry.

After enlightenment - you are no longer seeking - you are fulfilled. But it is not the same type of fulfilment as when you reach some goal. That is temporary because there is always a higher goal.

This is different - it is the end of all seeking.

That is why Osho has called it the last nightmare.

It is the answer to your question.

It is a nightmare for the ego.

Why? because the ego is all about achieveing, attaining, gaining.

That is why RSSB cannot work. It increases the greed. And greed is the barrier.

Enlightenment is the end of the ego and the end of greed.

It is the end of all hope - but not hopeless.

it is hopeless only for the ego.

put the ego aside and all dreams and aspirations and goals and seeking and Sach Khands all disappear.

This is what Osho means when he says it is good that God is dead - now there is nothing to seek. No need to waste your life seek Sach khand.

It is totally different from the person who has not even began the spiritual journey.

You have to be thirsty before you appreciate the value of water.

Jim Sutherland:
What is your belief on the testimonies of those who have seen Charan hoover over Gurinder Singh in Satsang, very clearly, as Gurinder's image morphs in to Charan Singh, some times as a 100 foot tall image, as 777 has posted here, seeing it happen in Switzerland? I have private testimonies of others, as well, who have seen Charan's very clear Astral Body in various sections of the Dera, even recently, and some one posted a couple of days ago on RSS that even David Lane said he witnessed Gurinder morph in to Charan's image. What is your take on this phenonomon? Do you think it is some kind of fraud, or a trick, dreamed up by Gurinder or his Staff to dupe gullible people attending his Satsangs? Do you think they are Holographic Projections from a 3D Projector used to fool College Professors with Ph.Ds like Lane, and other educated, grounded Westeners like 777 and others I know who have witnessed Charan Singh's image at the Dera and else where?

Osho R:
My dear friend, No guru needs to have holographic 3D projectors.
And here is why:

The mind of the believer is perfectly capable of doing all this without any external assistance. It is a perfectly normal phenomena when you are in love with your guru and have great love and faith.
I too have seen Darshan Singh Morph into Sawan and Kirpal even though I have seen neither of the latter two in real life. It is a trick of the mind.

Rather than repeat this – read it here
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MZLFBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=The+Unknowing+Sage:+The+Life+and+Work+of+Baba+Faqir+Chand&source=bl&ots=DbRpS2LPGa&sig=CmnAShkQ3zp7Z0D5ZOhHt4npkHI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqm8mYnc3UAhVjCcAKHdLcBRoQ6AEIYzAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Unknowing%20Sage%3A%20The%20Life%20and%20Work%20of%20Baba%20Faqir%20Chand&f=false

page 14
each person interprets according to their belief. For instance Rebazar Tarzs is seen by many eckankar followers – and he does not even exist – paul made him up!
Sikhs see Guru Nanak;
The majority of inner visions are projections of one’s own mind. The has been called the Chandian Effect. Inner visions are not real even though they appear to be. Certainly the guru is not aware of them happening.

As for the EYES OPEN part

I can guarantee it did not really happen. Just some people saw it - those who created it in their mind.

There are NO ACCOUNTS (ZERO) of Gurinder Morphing into Charan or Sawan or whoever, seen by the entire sangat.

Why not - because it doesn't happen in the outer world - it is created by the believer

Osho, I am quite certain I am as well read, as you are, as far as Sant Mat Books of the various lineages in English. I have read all of RSSB books, currently for sale, including many out of print, and all of Fakir Chand's books, as well as Soamibagh Agra books. After reading all those, including Lane's Forum RSS since inception, and Mike Willam's Secret Radhasoami site, this Churchless Church site, and now, your Neo Advaita writting, I no longer wonder why the insane Institutes are loaded with Scitsophranics!

According to the Bible, The Master Jesus was seen in broad day light by many of his Disciples , all at the same time after his Crucifiction. Of course, that is another debate, of whether he ever existed, and if so, did he die on the cross, or travel to India, marry Mary, and live to old age.

Since none of us can prove any thing, objectively, then any thing we say or share, is shared subjectively, mostly, looking for corraboration to what we already believe.

As for my observation of you, I would never hire you to work for me, in amy capacity, as your Employer, considering time is not of essence, to you! When working for any Employer, do you work by the hour, week, month, or Eternity, or work gor nothing, i.e. Free, considering you, don't exist? 😇


Jim Sutherland:
According to the Bible, The Master Jesus was seen in broad day light by many of his Disciples , all at the same time after his Crucifiction. Of course, that is another debate, of whether he ever existed,

Osho R: The bible is a work of fiction. It is not a reliable proof of anything. According to the bible - jesus raised lazarus from the dead - so can the current masters also do that?

Can you quote an example from Charan Singh, Gurinder SIngh, KIrpal, Sawan, Darshan, Rasila Ram )if you know who he is), Baba Kehar Singh (Tarn Tarn) or any of the Radha Soami offshoots - where the whole sangat saw their master morph into another master?

I don't know of any such case - so clearly any such vision is just the creation of the disciple - Like Faqir chand states

Jim:
Since none of us can prove any thing, objectively, then any thing we say or share, is shared subjectively, mostly, looking for corraboration to what we already believe.

Osho R:
Sant mat is a belief system - it requires you to have belief. They cannot possibly argue that no belief is required.

Enlightenment does not require beliefs - it is about dropping all the beliefs and nonsense you have accumulated. You do not replace it with a new belief in "nothing"

The very statement is ridiculous. "Nothing" is not a "thing" that I need to make it into a religion


Jim:
As for my observation of you, I would never hire you to work for me, in any capacity, as your Employer, considering time is not of essence, to you! When working for any Employer, do you work by the hour, week, month, or Eternity, or work for nothing, i.e. Free, considering you, don't exist?

Osho R:

This is what happens when you focus on only aspect of "no time and space"

If there is no time - there is also no space - so there cannot be a job to do.

I am talking about ultimate reality - it cannot be within time and space. I am making that as an absolute statement - not something to consider believing in.

"nothingness" is not the new religion except to those who are so used to religion and belief - they cannot imagine anything outside of it
😇

Hebrews 11:6 Bible Verse explains Osho's problem:

" And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Ishwar Puri tells a story about a good friend of his that was initiated by Sawan Singh the same time Ishwar was , and meditated for 40 years, using Sawan's instructions at initiation, and did his 2-1/2 hours per day for the 40 years and kept the Vows, but like most Exers here, got nothing. No Light, no Sound, no Inner experiences, he asked Ishwar who says he is in daily inner contact with Sawan Singh, to ask him why his friend got nothing after 40 years of practice.

Ishwar said he did ask Sawan, and Sawan told him that his friend did not meditate with LOVE and DEVOTION.

So, as the Bible Verse shares, if Faith is absent, and we don't even believe that any God exists, than no wonder we receive exactly what we belive we will recieve,....i.e. NO THING.

The Bible says that God is the Alpha and Omega. That's Greek for the beginning and the end.

So even Neo Advaitism had a beginning, and will also end.

Mean while, here in Maya as Jim, waiting to die of old age, " Once I was young, but now I am old, but have never seen the Righteous forsaken, nor their Seed begging for bread."

God's method of bringing His children back to Him with out sickness is,..."Thou takest away their breath, they die, with out sickness." Psalms 104:29

Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, as a shock of corn comes to its season." Job 5:26

" With long life, will I satisfy him, and show him my Salvation." Psalms 91:16

I testify that this has been my experince as Jim, because of my Faith that God exists, and had a plan for my existence even before He formed me in my mothrer's womb, I am told in the Bible, and belive, because it has been proven to me, by experience, for the 75 years I have been in Jim's body.

It won't end when Jim disappears, but the next Adventure in The Book of Live will unfold. 😇

I was just watching Gordon Ramsay's kitchen nightmares.

Levanit's Season 6 Episode 7/16

The guy says his sauce is inspired by God.

in the meeting after trying the food, Gordon asks the owner
about the "Dream sauce"

"I got inspired by a higher power" says the owner.

"A higher power?" asks Gordon.

"God" says the owner

"God?"

"I mean that" repeats the owner

"God made the sauce?"

Now that is what you call deluded.

Followers of religions are no different.
However, because they are so steeped in belief they think everyone has beliefs.

for example most believers think that an atheist also has a belief.

They think - "I believe in God" and "You believe there is no God" - both beliefs.

However, the atheist does not have a belief.

His position is "I don't have the evidence to accept your belief"

in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMOVEQmI3U8

at 4 min 40 secs the caller says "I had an encounter with God"

then notice how the conversation goes from there.

The believer is convinced - that that is what belief is.

Now someone can say the same about me

That I am convinced that there is a "nothingness" or a "Oneness" and it is a belief.

The difference is this:

What I am talking about is the absence of all things - and cannot even be experienced.

So how can that be a belief?

And I am not trying to convince anyone - because that would be impossible.

The absence of all beliefs - leaves emptiness or nothing.

That emptiness or nothing is not another belief. There is nothing to believe or deny


I don't know if Jesus raised Lazarous from the dead, but I DO know this happeed!

I shared this story in the past with a few that you might find interesting.

I once posted a story how I was driving on a large Freeway in California around 1982 when I had my Church. I was on my way to work and was driving the speed limit about 70 MPH, when a car passed me doing very high speed, cut right in front of me, and hit the metal guard rails, flipped over them, and rolled over a large bank tumbling down a ravine over and over. I watched it and the dirt and debris flying, as the car finally rested on the bottom of the ravine up side down with smoke coming off it. I had already gone way past the site at my 70 MPH, but I finally found a spot to leave my car, and started running back to the accident. When I got there, I saw people already there at the bottom of the ravine. I had a suit and white shirt on, and slid down the bank as it was steep. When I got there, people had pulled a man out of the wrecked car, and he was laying on the ground on his back with people just standing around him looking at him, but doing nothing. One said an Ambulance had been called. I told the crowd of people I was a Minister and was going to pray for the man. One guy said, he is dead, don't bother. I kneeled down, and looked at the man. His ears were both packed with mud, and his mouth was half open, and also packed with dirt and mud, and his eyes were closed. I couldn't see him bleeding any where, but he didn't seem to be breathing. I first dug the mud out of one ear. Then stuck my fingers in his mouth, dug out some mud, and freed his tongue. I then knelt down and spoke softly in to the man's ear I had cleaned out, and told the man I was a minister and was going to pray for him that God would heal him. I then started praying like the earth was about to end, right in his ear. People standing there were looking like I was crazy,........until,.......the man's eyes starting flickering,....and he opened them, and looked like he had just returned from the dead!! He had a look of terror in his eyes, and I kept praying out loud,...until he suddenly, got up on his feet, looked up the bank, and started climbing up the bank to the road! People were cheering, tearing, and shouting as the man got to the top. Just as he got there, an Ambulance arrived, and he sat down on the road, and they grabbed him and drove off! No Police came, and I never ever saw on any newspapers any thing about the accident or any results. Just another day on the Path. I used to have another new story a day to tell, as I never knew the next test would be placed before me. Problem was, I could never control any event. I could only respond when an opportunity arose. Still pretty much the same, but as a Recluse, nothing happens .

Jim,
How did you manage to do all that? Does it mean that you have divine powers? and can you do it again?

check this out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KRsyx3IJ94

at 6.5 minutes into the hypnosis session - the girl on the end has lost the number six.
The other guy cannot say the number six.

Divine powers?

just hypnosis

What you believe is true becomes true for you.

When you at on a guru path and have great "love" for the master and have lots invested in the whole belief - you are effectively hypnotised.

Someone asked me "How are you able to go to the mic and ask Baba those questions?"

I asked him "And how is it that you are not...."

turns out he was afraid Baba might make a comment against him and he would not be able to handle it.

A bit like when he said to me, "Are you trying to test me?"

When you have a strong belief - it creates all kinds of experiences to match.

a hypnotised person can crunch on an onion - thinking it is an apple.

He will not cry or have any off the effects of eating a raw onion.

The body will act exactly as if it was an apple.

magical powers?

or hypnosis.

you can learn to be a faith healer right here

https://jaysnell.org/Articles/healer.htm

divine powers? or simple learned techniques?


To Osho: I don't need to learn " how to be a Faith Healer." Been there, done that, also. Reading about other people's healings's is much difference than trying it your self. I WAS a Pentecostal Faith Healer,....among other things, in my distant past. I know all the tricks, but the facts are, not all, are tricks! Real healings DO happen, but only by God's Grace, and not by any Faith Healer's Parler tricks.

I wrote 1/3 of my Doctor Thesis in 1984 as a partial for my Seminary Th.D. Degree, if you are interested in reading my real experiences as a Faith Healer, and Bible Scripture supporting Healings.

Here is the Link on my Blog if any one is interested in reading it. It has a dozen parts, so start here, and keep accessing the next part.

http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2006/08/healing-miracles-faith-divine-vs.html

As for Stage Hypnotism, I have seen many on our Cruises, watching people make absolute fools out of them selves. Those people are mostly faking it, for attention, as they are not far inside. But, I agree, Mass Hypnotism is certainly possible. Benny Hinn is a good example of a Mass Hypnotist. Google him, if interested, to see how he just waves at the Choir in the Balcony, and they all fall on their backs. I have attended many of his live events. I could share stories until the Advaitists run out of Time. HaHa.

Appreciative Reader:
query1:
Nothingness and the ONEness and one and the same thing. At least as far as I am concerned. Others may have a different take on it.

I use them synonymously. Nothing because the end of all time and space - ultimate reality I can only call empty or nothing.

Oneness is more for someone who comes from a religious mind and its easier for him to understand.

The religious person already accepts that there is a God.
But he also says there is a ME

so that makes two

so the person will never reach the goal because he cannot come out of duality

why not?

because there is a ME trying to get teo GOD.

and it takes time and struggle and effort - and nobody arrives.

because it is impossible for this to happen in duality

anything happening in duality is a dream event

only awakening (waking up from the dream) is significant

all else is part of maya

The seeker needs to see there is only ONE

once this is seen clearly - realization dawns


There is only ONE means there is only GOD and no me

so there is no separate self that needs to merge

as long as one says there is a separate self - it cannot happen

only the ONE is


AR
The second question.
If someone comes to a Master – not desperately – but just curiosity seekers – He will simply entertain them.
They will have a laugh and a joke like Gurinder Singh does in his Q&A sessions.
However, when a Janak comes, when a Vivekananda comes, when an Ananda comes, when a true seeker comes – that is when the magic happens.
And it’s not that the master needs to do anything – it happens all by itself.
It is the disciple that creates the magic. He believes because at that point he is blind and that is all a blind man can do – believe.

He seeks eyes – so he will not remain blind.
The spiritual path is not for the curiosity seeker. It is for the person who is at the end of the road, He is not content with just jokes. He wants truth and nothing less will do.
The master – disciple connection exists only when this happens.
The significance of the spiritual journey is that the seeker is lost and all he has is beliefs.
He is seeking Sach Khand or some place to get to. He life is a struggle.
He will never arrive – because nobody ever does.
The master shows him that there is no Sach Khand – and that he is already at home.
Now no journey is required and there is no more struggle.
All seeking, searching, greed is gone.
Not by any effort – but because there is no need, as there is only nothing now.
He laughs at the madness of his own previous search.

AR: Follow-on Query 3 : After we die (that is, after our heart stops and brain stops, and our body is consigned to earth or flame), then will there be any difference at all in what happens to the Realized person and the ordinary non-Realized person?

Like I remember asking you earlier, will ordinary Joe and ordinary Me be any more alive or any less alive after we die than will realized You? And will our post-death condition be any different?
If our post-death condition is nothingness, non-existence, then we’re all of us equally nothing.
But if our post-death condition is Oneness, then very many options and possibilities present themselves. I’d like you talk about what you think happens.

Osho R reply:
There is no death after enlightenment. That which was never born cannot die. Enlightenment means you were never born. How can you die?
The body was born and then an ego appeared and started claiming. “I” and “ME”
That was the whole root cause. Now this ego got worried. “What will happen to me after death?”
“How can I become immortal or merge with God?”
With enlightenment – the worry is over. There IS no you. You cannot be saved. There is no hope. No need to seek or struggle now. It’s all over.

So what about the unenlightened person?
He dies – and is reborn. How? Why? Because this life is a dream. And unless you awaken – the dream continues. That is all it means to be re-born.
This dream just carries on in another body.
One dream ends and another starts. The dreamer is the same. The “I” is the dreamer. The ego is the dreamer.
Unless it awakens – the dreams will continue.
The dreamer thinks the dreams are real because they appear to be real – they are happening within time and space.
Everything within time and space appears to be real.
It has to – because it is happening – and that is happening appears to be real.
When I say there is no time and space – it is easy to misunderstand me
Hence Jim says he would not hire me because I believe there is no time.
I am not saying there is no time – here and now.
I am saying that the ultimate reality is there is no time and space.
In this dream world – there is time and space – because that is the very fabric of our existence here.
That’s it.
I have answered the three follow on points. The ball is in your court now.

Appreciative Reader,

I now come to the final conclusion. and you are welcome to post any comments.

Before we can have clear communication, we have to have clear definitions.
Otherwise we are talking about different things and can only mis-understand.

REALITY & TIME / SPACE
What is ULTIMATE REALITY?
What is RELATIVE REALITY?

TIME & SPACE are central to the definition of relative and ultimate reality.
RELATIVE REALITY means what we consider to be REAL in our day to day life.
What is happening right NOW is relative reality. Everything I see around me is all relative reality.
What I normally consider to be REAL comes under the category of RELATIVE REALITY.

This is why Jim Sutherland makes comments like “I would not hire you… why do you wear a watch..”
It is because I have not clearly defined what I am talking about.

Just saying – “there is no time and space” does not make sense because I have not defined the context of the statement.
So EVERYTHING you see around you is part of RELATIVE REALITY.
You already call it reality – I have just added an additional word – RELATIVE
This is also exactly the same as MAYA or illusion.
It is SEEN and HEARD and FELT and is what we normally call REAL.
I am calling this RELATIVE REALITY.

Now let’s define the other type of REALITY – Which I am calling ULTIMATE REALITY.
It cannot be SEEN, or HEARD, or FELT.
It cannot be known by the senses.
It cannot be written or spoken.
I cannot give it to you . It has no form, no shape, no colour.
It has no beginning and no end.
It is neither here nor there.
I call it ULTIMATE REALITY or ULTIMATE TRUTH.
It is what is left if you remove TIME and SPACE.
You can call it NOTHING – as long as you don’t start imagining it is a thing.
Nothing or NO-THING is the absence of all things.

So now the definitions are clear – we can move on to the next stage
Which is to examine each of these clearly – and because we have made clear definitions
There is no excuse to make out of context statements.

Statement 1 – Relative Reality appears to be real – but is not ultimate reality.
It is only real for a short while – then it will disappear. So it is not real forever.
It is real for a SHORT WHILE only.

Statement 2 – ULTIMATE REALITY does not change – it does not come or go.
It is not born and does not die. It simply IS (or you could say IS NOT)
It cannot be EXPERIENCED. It cannot be KNOWN. It cannot be DESCRIBED.
It cannot be PROVEN or DISPROVEN.
Anything you say about it will be a lie.
There are not TWO ultimate realities –there is only ONE
Hence I can call it the ONENESS – but that too is a lie
I can call it NOTHINGNESS – but that too is a lie
Anything I say about it is a lie.
Hence Nanak says “Nanak keh keh chup hoi”
He says after saying so much, “I now just keep quiet.” Nothing to be said.

Notice that ULTIMATE REALITY is the same as the scripture definition of
NAAM or SHABD.

REALIZATION of NAAM or SHABD is the same as REALIZATION of the ONE.
So now let me re-word Charan Singh’s statement – which is the same as all scriptures
“How can something that is here today and gone tomorrow be ULTIMATE REALITY?”

Now you can reword my statements also
“There is no space and time” should be stated as:
“There is no Time and Space in ULTIMATE REALITY, but there IS in RELATIVE REALITY”

That ends all the confusion.

So now all I am saying is this:
All RELATIVE REALITY is guaranteed to END
Only ULTIMATE REALITY will remain.
So, for example what Jim Sutherland or anyone experiences in an inner region is part of RELATIVE REALITY – so it will end.
Anything that can be seen, heard, felt, experienced will END as it is part of RELATIVE REALITY
Anything that MOVES is part of RELATIVE REALITY.
So Anami Purush is part of RELATIVE REALITY.
Sach Khand is part of RELATIVE REALITY.
Your individual soul is part of RELATIVE REALITY.

So now finally we can make the final statement.

The whole purpose of the spiritual journey is to recognise clearly the difference between
RELATIVE and ULTIMATE reality.
So now for a quick quiz
In ULTIMATE REALITY – do YOU exist as a separate entity?
If you don’t, then it also becomes clear that you don’t exist now either
You just APPEAR to – in relative reality.

And – if there is no separate YOU (in ultimate reality) then who is trying to be saved?
And anything you DO (like meditate) in RELATIVE REALITY – cannot possibly help
Because it is not REAL (ultimately) and also nothing needs to be done and cannot be done.

So all this Is not a belief – there is nothing to believe.
And it is also not subjective because there is no subject left to have the experience.

If you get this intellectually – you will still think it is a belief.

Once you truly GET IT – then is becomes realisation.
Realisation is not a belief

so now coming back to Gurinder's answer to the question I asked about Nirgun and Sargun.

Nirgun means Ultimate Reality (where there is no time and space and by definition there cannot possibly be an individual self)

Sargun means Relative Reality. It is only in relative reality that the satguru, the disciple and the spiritual path and the struggle to attain exists.

So Gurinder quite correctly stated that the Nirgun is the goal and the sargun is just the means.

So getting initiated, having love for the master, darshan, grace, seva, surrender, meditation - all this is sargun.

All of it is maya and relative reality. None of it will be forever. It is all in what I call the Dream state (relative reality)

And nothing you do in that state can set you free.

because
(1) there is no separate self (in ultimate reality) to set free
(2) anything you do in the dream state is just part of the dream
(3) Ultimate Reality cannot be attained - it already is the case

The very notion of achieving and attaining only exists in relative reality.


ANYONE who considers RELATIVE REALITY to be REAL has a huge problem.

He is trying to DO, ACHIEVE and ATTAIN. Even if he succeeds - he has just had a
dream in which he succeeded.

Someone who just HEARS about ULTIMATE REALITY will consider it another BELIEF
and another religion maybe.

He will ask "How do you KNOW?" and ULTIMATE REALITY is outside the domain of knowing and experiencing.

Osho declares,...."Notice that ULTIMATE REALITY is the same as the scripture definition of
NAAM or SHABD."

Jim disagrees, because Bible Scripture that Sant Mat is built upon says,..."In the BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ( John 1:1 )

Sant Mat Masters agree that the " WORD" in that Scripture Verse is the same as Shabd, or Sound.

So, the Shabd, DID have a beginning, because it was Created, by God.

So, in Osho's understanding, God is Ultimate Reality, where Shabd, the Word, is Relative Reality.

The answer to the Riddle is, unpacked, as soon as the Seeker decides which Reality it, as the individual soul, of which we, in this Church all are, realize we exist in. Were we a Cell of Ultimate Reality that created cells in Relitive Reality, or, if not either, then what ARE we, right now, keying these debates?

Speaking about the Word in John 1:1, John further unpacks what the Wird was, that DID have a begginning, when he says in John 1:2 ,3, ......."The same was in the beggining WITH God. ALL things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the LIGHT of men"

So, to my understanding, at least, we, as souls, WERE created by Gid, so we did have a beginning, but in other Scripure Verses, it is made very clear that souls , once created, have been granted, Eternal Life, by God.

So, that indicates, that Relative Reality, was created by Ultimate Reality, and granted the Gift of Ultimate Reality along with God's Seal of Approval to experience Adventures in Maya or Sach Khand, as long as the Rule of Karma is binding to each individual soul that was created.

Jim Sutherland writes:
Osho declares,...."Notice that ULTIMATE REALITY is the same as the scripture definition of
NAAM or SHABD."
Jim disagrees, because Bible Scripture that Sant Mat is built upon says,..."In the BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ( John 1:1 )
Sant Mat Masters agree that the " WORD" in that Scripture Verse is the same as Shabd, or Sound.
So, the Shabd, DID have a beginning, because it was Created, by God.
So, in Osho's understanding, God is Ultimate Reality, where Shabd, the Word, is Relative Reality.
OSHO R:
Firstly sant mat is not built on bible scripture. In fact Swami Ji and earlier gurus of Radha soami probably never even read the bible.
It was only later, to convince the western audience that the bible comparisons were added.
“In the beginning was the Word” – does not mean that the Word had a beginning.
It means it was there right from the start. i.e. had no beginning.


It cannot be SEEN, or HEARD, or FELT.
It cannot be known by the senses.
It cannot be written or spoken.
I cannot give it to you . It has no form, no shape, no colour.
It has no beginning and no end.

Is this not the definition of SHABD?

Shabd can be heard and seen. Lots to see, lots to hear.

Shabd was the Word that had a beginning, according to John 1:1.

Shabd is just another word for ,...Shabd, Nam, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Kalma, Isme-i-Azam, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Kalma, Logos, Music of Spheres, Word, Bani, Gurbani, Living Water, Audible Life Stream, Tao.

It has different meanings to different people, depending on experience, or belief.

Ignoring Living in Relative Reality while believing in Ultimate Reality is the Key to unhappiness and isolation from life as conscious human beings who have been gifted human bodies to discover how to escape the cycle of The Wheel of 84.

Teaching others to just give up, and not to bother trying to accomplish any thing, materially, because it is all Maya and impermanent, is murdering your friends and family before they are dead! It is a cruel poison to impose on innocent, naive, Seekers of Spirituality and Truth.

Advaita Teachers are Agents of Kal. They have ZERO Compassion, for their fellow human beings, striving for happiness. They are selfish creatures with out souls animated as Robots no different than the Alien Grays with no agenda, other than to abduct humans with souls so they can extract their DNA so they also might understand why humans with Eternal individual souls seek the persuit of happiness, and the enjoyment of loving God and their neighbors as them selves!

Who would love a self that not only doesn't exist, but has never existed, other than the figment imagination?

Show me a happy fullfilled Neo-Advaitist, and I'll show a dozen happy, blissful, successful, Spirit filled souls of any religeous persuasion, not only Sant Mat.

If Ultimate Reality does exist, but no one has ever returned from there to prove it, than Relative Reality is the permanite Reality that rules Eternity! 😇😍💤💤💤💤

Geneis 2:7,...."And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

No souls were alive until God created them, when He breathed in to the man formed from dust the Breath of Life, which was the WORD, the SHABD, that DID have a beginning, and was WITH God, but NOT God, who has no beginning!

Jim:
Ignoring Living in Relative Reality while believing in Ultimate Reality is the Key to unhappiness and isolation from life as conscious human beings who have been gifted human bodies to discover how to escape the cycle of The Wheel of 84.

Teaching others to just give up, and not to bother trying to accomplish any thing, materially, because it is all Maya and impermanent, is murdering your friends and family before they are dead! It is a cruel poison to impose on innocent, naive, Seekers of Spirituality and Truth.

Osho R:
You misunderstand what all this means.
It is perfectly fine to achieve, attain and do whatever you want - but just recognise the truth - that it is not ultimate reality.

You will do it all as a game.

Even Radha Soami teaches you to do that.
It doesn't tell you to get lost in accumulating wealth in this world


Jim:
Who would love a self that not only doesn't exist, but has never existed, other than the figment imagination?

Osho R:
But Charan Singh and the sant mat gurus ALL MAKE THAT STATEMENT

let me type if here for clarity

"How can we say something is real when it is here today and gone tomorrow"

Charan Singh is saying this is all UNREAL. everything that moves is here today and gone tomorrow

So is Charan Singh an agent of kal?

Hi Jim

You wrote

"So, the Shabd, DID have a beginning, because it was Created, by God."

If you look at Genesis 1:1 you will notice that even before God created anything there were the waters.

When nothing else existed, the waters existed.

Shabd has no beginning or end, in terms of time.

Even the creator, and you and I are Shabd. But whether we witness that Spirit within or not, and through it those real regions and real places is another matter.

Even our Master is Shabd. Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. Both are absolutely real.


Dear Osho Robbins,

Thank you very much for your responses. I’ve gone through them, and they were both interesting and illuminating. I’ve bookmarked this thread, and saved portions of our conversation offline as well. I’ll be sure to return to them and, starting from that base, try to learn a bit more about Advaitic practices/methods (the theory part I’m familiar with, more or less, and probably don’t need to explore any further).

My questions are answered. I have my answers now, or as much of them as I expect is possible to be had from this exchange with you. Nothing more from me.

You’ve very patiently taken a great deal of your time to respond to me, and for that I am grateful to you.

With best wishes,
Appreciative Reader.


- - - -


P.S.

As far as I am concerned, this discussion is done. Now by that I don’t necessarily mean that I’m withdrawing from this discussion. But I do mean that, so far as I see, I have nothing more to learn or to gain, myself, from this discussion. I come to this website in general to see if there isn’t anything new I can learn, just that, and that learning phase is over, as far as I can see. And so, I myself have no further need to extend this discuss any further. As far as I am concerned, like I said, this discussion is done.

Nevertheless, if *you* want me to, I will be very happy to stay on awhile longer here. That is the least I can do, after all the questions you have so patiently fielded from me. I can, if you wish, present you a critique, from my perspective, of some of your answers. I can also speak to you about subjectivity and objectivity and reality, and the points of similarity (as well as the points of divergence) between your point of view and the point of view of other religious people. However, whether I do that or not is entirely up to you. I have no desire, myself, to *argue*, or get into a debate as such, about things that I myself have no doubt about. Convincing you or anyone else of anything, or scoring debating points, these things mean nothing to me, literally. Nevertheless, if you ask me now to talk to you about these things, because you yourself want to learn from what I have to say (or because you simply are curious), then let me know. If you ask me to, then I’ll be very happy to return the favor and discuss this now for your sake, as you did for mine thus far. Otherwise, this discussion can end here, as far as I am concerned, and much thanks to you for all that you’ve so unstintedly shared with me!


- - - -


So just let me know, a brief “yes” or “no”, to the following (except for #3, which requires some elucidation from you). If you make no overt response at all, to one or more of the following, I’ll read that as simply “no”, and simply let go. (If you leave it to me, with an “anything you wish” carte blanche, then too I’ll just let this go, because I definitely do not, myself, wish any further discussion at all -- this, now, is for your benefit, should you yourself wish it.) Any overt outright “Yes”s from you to one or more of the following I’ll be very happy to respond to :

(1) I do have an opinion on the answers you gave me to my specific queries. A critique, if you will. Also, I’ve come to a conclusion, purely subjective but one that satisfies me, about your own perception of Oneness and your actual grasp on Ultimate Reality. Do you want me to go to the trouble of telling you about all of these?

(2) Do you want me to take the time to talk to you about the subjective nature of your beliefs, to show you how the elements of your worldview are essentially religious beliefs, and to make clear to you how your religious beliefs are essentially no different from other religious beliefs, whether RSSB or RC or any other?

(3) If you don’t want me to show you #(2) above, then this last won’t apply at all. But if you do want me to show you #(2) above, then please refer your comment addressed to me and posted here on page 3, on June 13at 09:36 PM. In that longish comment addressed to me, you say that you have understood what I meant when I’d said that your Oneness worldview is subjective. May I take that comment of yours as the starting point for this discussion (if at all you want me to have the discussion, that is)? I ask because you have subsequently said a good many things, addressed both to me and to Jim Sutherland, that are different than what you convey as having understood in that particular comment. If you ask me to take that comment as the starting point, then I will ignore the contrary views you’ve expressed in subsequent comments. And if you ask me not to take as absolute your views in that particular comment (absolute from your perspective, I mean), then I will ignore that particular comment, and instead talk to you in general terms, and touch where relevant on portions of your subsequent comments. However you wish it. In either case (provided, that is, you do ask me to touch on this at all) I will talk to you about your “final conclusion” as presented in your commented posted on June 21 at 10:49 PM (and also your short follow-on comment posted on June 22 at 02:43 AM, although perhaps that was addressed not to me but to Jim Sutherland).


- - - -


In any event, you’ll hear back from me only next week. I’ll be going away for the weekend and spilling on to early next week, and I dislike writing (or even reading) lengthy texts on my phone. So I’ll get back to you on Tuesday possibly, else Wednesday. (I’m keeping you posted about this so that you don’t unnecessarily waste time looking out for my response before that.)

And again, if you don’t really want me to, and don’t expressly ask me, then the discussion ends here, and you won’t hear back from me at all. In which latter case let me say this : textual communication, as here, isn’t able to properly convey all the nuances of what one means to convey. Lest my textual words came out sounding stiff or in any way negative, let me assure you that I’ve enjoyed our discussion here immensely, and gained a lot from it. If you do not wish to take this further and choose to end this discussion now, then I do so with the warmest of regards for you, my friend.

Hi Osho!
You wrote
"said he witnessed Gurinder morph in to Charan's image. What is your take on this phenonomon? Do you think it is some kind of fraud, or a trick, dreamed up by Gurinder or his Staff to dupe gullible people attending his Satsangs?"

This also happened to me. I witnessed it, and was a little surprised to see any one else testify to the same.

The Charan I saw in Baba Ji's place was much, much older, even than Charan when He passed away. It was very strange, as if He had never died and kept on aging. And then He simply morphed into Gurindar.

I thought of it as an individual gift. My Master let me see Himself once more, in the form He would appear in had He lived.

I had no idea anyone else saw that. Unusual, a miracle, but not in the sense of hallucination, but in the sense that the physical reality we see is entirely a projection, and in the mind, a construction, but based on a physical reality at a single level of perception.

It wasn't a hallucination, in the sense of "Oh My Master". It was more like "That's interesting. Is this a hallucination? Hmmm... It Persists... Well, whatever, I'll take it as a gift.."

Imagine RSSB implementing Pepper's Ghost Holographic Projection Technolgy to project Master Charan Singh to Gurinder's Satsangs?

It could be easily done, but would it be kept a secret, or would the Engineers leak the truth, of how Gurinder morphs in to Charan Singh, who morphs in to Sawan Singh, who keeps morphing in to multiple faces with different head coverings from Turbans to head scarfs?

I saw such manifestations, more than once, but starting with Charan, not Gurinder. But for me, it was during Deeeeppppp Meditation, not in broad day light with eyes open.

But, using Pepper's Ghost Techology could fool even Osho Robbins and Manjit if applied in a mass Satsang with out Drugs being used.

http://www.peppersghosthd.com/princess.html

Appreciative Reader:

I can, if you wish, present you a critique, from my perspective, of some of your answers. I can also speak to you about subjectivity and objectivity and reality, and the points of similarity (as well as the points of divergence) between your point of view and the point of view of other religious people.

Osho R:
Please go ahead.


Before you do so, I would like you to address a different subject,

Do you consider Atheism is a belief?

and how subjective / objective is Atheism?

Please just focus on answering this before we move onto the other topic

thank you


Spencer Tepper :
"It wasn't a hallucination, in the sense of "Oh My Master". It was more like "That's interesting. Is this a hallucination? Hmmm... It Persists... Well, whatever, I'll take it as a gift..""

Osho R:
The question is whether the change was actually physical or a perception.

If it was physical, then it means everyone saw it. If the satsang was filmed, it would also appear in the film. That is a physical change.

If it doesn't appear in the film - then it was a perception.

if it was a perception, then I call that a hallucination.

I am not denying you saw it, and you considered it a gift.

I am simply saying it comes under the category of a hallucination.

Let me explain it another way.

What would happen if Gurinder morphed into Rajindar Singh?

Is that still a gift?

Would you take that at as message that Rajindar Singh is the current GIHF on earth?


Hi Osho

Very interesting comments.
You make a distinction between physical and perception that makes no sense, upon deeper consideration. We are hopelessly bound to our limited perceptions. And if occasionally we perceive more, perhaps that is truly greater awareness, not less.

You wrote

"if it was a perception, then I call that a hallucination."

Considering we understand the world and even truth on a basis of perception your claim goes quite far.

While Maharaji was right there in detail physically, in appearance, I understood it to be perception. I was seeing something. What else could it be?

But what a construction! With the accuracy of all the other surroundings!

Yes, you may call it hallucination. It wasn't for you. It was poetry and love. Of course that comes from within. And it is sacred.

And if I was perceiving something at a different level of physical creation? A heightened level? If I was seeing what was actually there, but not visible to the limited range of eye or camera?
That is also perception, but not hallucination.

If I were perceiving another view of the actual physical reality, an actual part of Baba Ji, , then I would have to be perceiving with a different set of eyes, certainly.

And where did such a vision emerge? Where within me?

That would be conjecture, which I do not indulge in, especially in the inner world. Rather I put aside such judgment in order to witness more, and then I can begin to understand where such a stable and complete vision came from. Repeat witness is the bases of scientific understanding.

If that perfect construction was a hallucination, then how much more of what everyone sees every moment is just more of the same? Or less?

But it was witnessed independently by more than one person, as you have read. And that adds veracity that the perception was indeed of something real.


But that place within someone else I care not to conjecture about, I know nothing of. All art, all science, all achievements, everything of greatness, even every higher perception within the human being comes from there. Our physical world is covered over with physical objects which started there in that place you have labeled hallucination.

Oh, Osho, so many symphonies arose from that place, so many inventions, so much deeper understanding. So much peace, love and wisdom. You have dismissed as hallucination.

Hallucination generally is degraded perception.

But heightened perception... Inspired perception. Witnessed by others..

I wouldn't label it at all. That's just a form of prejudice.

And again, apparently others did witness it and wrote of it. Surprising!

One person sees a dark room and exclaims "It's empty".

Another gazes inside and says "It is full,"

But a scientist silently enters, flash light in hand.

Try to appreciate first, rather than label what neither you nor I actually understand.

Be a better scientist.

Spence Tepper wrote:
But it was witnessed independently by more than one person, as you have read. And that adds veracity that the perception was indeed of something real.

Osho R:
First of all - the point about physical / perception was this:
If it's an actual physical change - in the physical world - then everyone will see it.
I don't mean 10 people, 100 people or 1000 people.
I mean everyone in the whole audience.
Why? because it's what is actually there - not a perception.

I am using perception in that sense. Not in the sense that everything is perception, which of course it is - I just wasn't using the word in that sense.

I meant to make the distinction between "really happened in the physical world for everyone to see" compared to "some people who were in some special state saw it" (which means they were in a different mental state.

Let me make it clear.

Imagine I filmed the satsang.

If the film footage shows the change - then is it an actual physical change and everyone will see it. Not a single person will miss it.

If the film footage didn't show it - then it was a perception of the people who saw it - it is not happen in the physical world.

So the point that someone made about 3D projections etc could not happen anyway - because everyone would see it.

When intense belief is involved - hallucinations are common. it is exactly like hypnosis.

How can a hypnotised person drink vinegar as if it was wine?
or eat an onion as if it was an apple? or thinks he has nine fingers?

This is what happens in the hypnotised state.

And we are in a state of hypnosis most of the time.

When you are brushing your teeth, watching TV, reading a book, having darshan - in fact anytime that you are not fully in the present - you are in a state of hypnosis.

That is how you can drive home and not remember the journey - because you were in a state of hypnosis.

And mass hypnosis also happens.

Appreciative Reader,

I acknowledge that any statement I make has to be subjective by the very fact that I am making the statement.

Even if I make a statement of fact in, say, an accident. It is still subjective no matter how objective I may claim it is.

I may claim that my statement is factual, however, that is just my perception and therefore subjective.

By definition, everything coming from me has to be subjective.

A scientific experiment carried out in a lab, and objectively documented is the only thing that can be considered objective evidence.

All else, no matter how convincing, is, by definition, subjective.

I concede that point.

Attn. Osho Robbins. This Article might knock a little sense back in you, so you quit appearing like a Gray Alien disguised as an East Indian Advaita Guru. 😇😍

http://www.nondualitymagazine.org/nonduality_magazine.contemporarynonduality.part6.htm

Hi Osho

You wrote

"And mass hypnosis also happens."

That's why even looking at the film, even at the evidence, a whole world can be in denial of the facts which stand right before them.

If it's not only the senses that can fail, so can one's reasoning.

Logic is actually a prostitute who will assume any position he is paid to assume.

So your submission points to only one possibility, the one you like.

It proves nothing.

In the moment means not overlaying things with your own pet explanation. Doing that is living in an imaginary world of your own construction.

Spencer wrote:

That's why even looking at the film, even at the evidence, a whole world can be in denial of the facts which stand right before them.

Osho R:

one hundred people who are not affiliated to the guru - watch the film of the apparent morphing of one face into another. They will tell you if it is on the film or not.

They are not hypnotised because they have nothing invested in the result.

If they can all clearly see the morphing - then it physically happened.

If they can't then it wasn't a physical morphing.

Then if anyone say it - it was an hallucination, because they saw what was not really there.

Also - visions and morphing happen because the person wants it to happen and considers it a blessing. You see what you want to see.

Spencer:
If it's not only the senses that can fail, so can one's reasoning.
Logic is actually a prostitute who will assume any position he is paid to assume.

Osho R:
But not if you are a neutral observer with no preference. As someone who may watch a film of the satsang.

There is a movie of Charan Singh, If I remember correctly - it was taken at the wembley satsang when Charan Singh gave darshan. If I remember incorrecly - then it was another location. In the film - Charan singh has come off the plane and is giving darshan in the film of the event.

The sangat are singing shabds. He is tired and his eyes are closing, as is natural.

When satsangis watch this - they exclaim - "WOW - she shabd is pulling him up - he can't even keep his eyes open"

This is just believing what you want to believe.

Most likely he is tired and jet lagged, and can't keep his eyes open.

A perfectly normal thing that happens to people and it natural.


Hi Osho
If one wants to see it, maybe they will see what they want. Perhaps it's their imagination, perhaps heightened awareness. You seem fully capable to acknowledge only one side.


And if one doesn't want to see it, they will not see it. It might be there. They won't see it. And they may go further, and say "It's not there!" That is another sort of hypnosis.

Neither case is objective.

If an objective person who doesn't care either was, had no real desire, is just happy to be where they are ses something, they could evaluate it for themselves.

But to label it as hallucination is actually supporting a bias.

That's my point. You are arguing only one side over and over without acknowledging that possibility of heightened awareness.

You can't see it....

OK.

Jim Sutherland's idea to knock some sense into me :-
Attn. Osho Robbins. This Article might knock a little sense back in you, so you quit appearing like a Gray Alien disguised as an East Indian Advaita Guru. 😇😍

http://www.nondualitymagazine.org/nonduality_magazine.contemporarynonduality.part6.htm

Osho R:

Good attempt. However, there's a huge issue here.

An Advaita person might be not quite 'there'

as described here:
This way of thinking, "What's in it for me?"can happen when desire and greed are still binding, and when the clarity and understanding are not fully there.

But now compare this to the sant mat follower.

This is not a patch on the sant mat follower.

The sant mat follower is firmly and openly all about "WIIFM"
(What's In It For Me)

The sant mat follower meditates for what reason?

Just to pass the time? No.

To gain immortality; to escape the cycle of birth and death
To get to Sach khand.

This is greed and ambition. And not even hidden or subtle.

So many disciples in RSSB go to the Microphone, for what?

To ASK for grace - greed.

To ASK him to come at the time of death - Greed

Greed and ambition is in plain sight n RSSB.

Ever seen sevadars at a satsang event? With two ways radios and doing their duty.

For what? What is the payoff? Why are they doing it?

There is a HUGE benefit - the EGO.

The same with the speakers - preaching to the converted.

It's all overt ego - not even subtle.

The ordinary man is a little egotistical - chasing wealth and things

The person on the sant mat path is very egotistical - he thinks he can attain
God, Sach Khand through his meditation.

The greed and ambition has gone wild.

And the article talks of advaita people who might not quite be there yet!

So what? At least they are facing the correct way

and not trying to reach God as if God was a person in time and space.

The4 sat mat path is about trying to attain.

All "trying to attain" is egotistical and ambition

I have yet to meet a sincerely humble RSSB follower

I have met some who are proud of their humility (work that out!)

I am referring to fake humility.

Of course a person on any path can be mistaken - it's all part of the journey.

Andrew Cohen admitted his mistake after teaching for many years

But the RSSB follower has a much bigger problem

His path is about ambition.

Getting to Sach Khand is ambition.

The practise of meditation is done to get to Sach Khand, not to lose the ego.

The speakers in particular are the most deluded:

They have not arrived; yet the guide others.

Why would anyone speak on stage when they know they are not there?

That is hypocrisy. Pretending to be advanced.

The very idea of giving satsang - when you are just a follower - is itself hypocrisy.

They even say "parh parh pandit aura samjayi"

The pundit reads and explains to others while his own house is burning.

So Why does RSSB have speakers who are not advanced.

Why is the criteria not spiritual advancement?

because then there would be nobody to do the satsangs

As far as I know only RSSB does this anyway.

In other branches, people may read from books, but not go on stage and speak as if they were the master.

overt egotism


Quote Osho Robbins : Please go ahead.


You’ll have to be more specific than that. Please read my comment again, the one I posted on June 23 at 07:34 AM. All of it, not just the first few paragraphs. You yourself often write very long comments, some of them way longer than mine, presumably with the expectation that they will be read. May I not expect a reciprocation of that same courtesy from you? I too take time and effort to write these comments, time and effort that I could otherwise have used elsewhere. If you start to TLDR my comments (either because you lack the time or capacity to read them fully, or because I lack the capacity to write them engagingly enough for you), then I’ll stop writing them.

You’ll have to tell me which portions (#1, #2) you wish me to discuss, and what form you wish #3 to take.

Let’s not simply debate for the sake of debating, please. Waste of time and effort all around. Ask me only if you genuinely feel you have something to learn. That is the only reason I had asked you questions, to learn from you. Of course, you can also ask me if you feel there are things I myself haven’t understood properly and you wish to correct my erroneous understanding. I’m saying I probably don’t have much to learn any more from this discussion, but I could be wrong, and if you strongly feel I’m wrong and wish to correct that situation, that’s fine by me.


Quote Osho Robbins :
Before you do so, I would like you to address a different subject,

Do you consider Atheism is a belief?

and how subjective / objective is Atheism?

Please just focus on answering this before we move onto the other topic

thank you


With pleasure.

Thank you for giving me a chance to return the favor, after so patiently answering my queries, by now asking me questions that I can answer for you.

The answer to your questions is simple enough and short enough, but before I start, one qualification. I’m sure you aren’t literally ignorant about the meaning of the word ‘atheism’. Even if you were unsure of the meaning of that word, I’m sure a quick look at a dictionary would have been easier for you than asking me this. Therefore, I take your request for me to tell you what ‘atheism’ means, as an implicit request for me to tell you how your own beliefs measure up vis-à-vis that concept. I will be happy to reply to both requests of yours, the explicit one as well as the implicit one.

And I realize that you are indirectly steering me towards a part-elucidation of my #2 (per my comment posted June 23 at 07:34 AM). So be it. If that is what you want from me, that is what you shall have from me.

So :

Atheism (a-theism or not-theism) is simply an absence of theistic beliefs. It is absence of belief. By definition, then, it is not a belief.

(I refer to soft atheism here, which I consider the reasonable default position to adopt. Hard atheism, which claims the non-existence of gods, is actually a claim and, if believed, is indeed a belief.)

But leaving that semantic quibbling aside, atheism (by which I mean soft atheism) is not a belief. (And henceforth, when I use the word ‘atheism’ here, I will be referring to ‘soft atheism’ without necessarily making that qualification explicit.)

Certainly atheism isn’t subjective ; and to the extent that it isn’t subjective, we can say that it is objective.

However, the more precise answer would be this : Atheism is neither subjective nor objective. It isn’t “anything” at all. Just like “nothing” isn’t be either green or yellow, similarly, atheism isn’t either subjective or objective.


THIS (the default position of the non-belief of Atheism) IS IN SHARP CONTRAST TO YOUR VERY MANY RELIGIOUS BELEIFS.


Let me list some of these religious beliefs of yours in reverse chronological order of your comments here :


(1) June 22, 02:43 AM : Your axiomatic belief in an Ultimate Reality, that is different from everyday reality, and that is “outside the domain of knowing and experiencing”. What is this if not religious belief?

(We can discuss this further if you wish, but you have made very clear in your many comments here that your concept of Ultimate Reality and Oneness are different from simply nothingness, as the word ‘nothingness’ is commonly understood. If you contest that then I can quote you, chapter and verse, and prove this to you.)


(2) June 21, 10:49 PM (addressed to me) : Again : your axiomatic belief in an Ultimate Reality that is outside of space and time. Wholly subjective. No evidence (as is obvious, and indeed as you yourself admit). A strong element of your core belief system. Therefore your religious belief, period.

(Like Russel’s celestial teapot and Dawkin’s pink dragon, this Ultimate Reality “cannot be seen, or heard, or felt, and cannot known by the senses”. Which, by definition, means it doesn’t exist. Nevertheless, for you it does exist at some level, apparently. That is the very definition of subjective religious belief.)


(3) June 21, 02:44 PM (addressed to me) : Your belief in rebirth.

(I quote your very words : “…unless you awaken – the dream continues. That is all it means to be re-born. This dream just carries on in another body. … The dreamer is the same. The “I” is the dreamer. The ego is the dreamer. Unless it awakens – the dreams will continue”).

So rebirth is another religious belief that is part of your core belief system and your core worldview.


(4) June 19, 2017 : Your belief that “time and space and everything in it – all forms and everything that exists within Time and Space is all ILLUSION”. In other words, what one generally defines as reality is, in your worldview, exactly the opposite of reality, and only an illusion. Naturally you have no evidence of such claim. Again, what is this if not religious belief?


(5) June 18, 02:44 PM : Your assertion that your Oneness (presumably that same Oneness that is an Ultimate Reality that is outside of space and time and outside the domain of knowing and experiencing) cannot be figured out, and “some things you just have to go through … then decide”. That is what every “experiential” religion says. That is what RSSB says (at least, Julian Johnston does in his book). That is what (Hindu) Tantra says -- you cannot prove this by reason, although you can discuss it ; you have to actually experience this, and when you do, all argument stops, and you “know”. That is what Vajrayana says. That is what I have had some good and gentle yet surprisingly naïve Jehovah’s Witnesses declare to me personally about their somewhat crude beliefs (more on that later, if you do want me to extend the discussion that is). This implicit and exclusive reliance on non-verifiable experience/intuition, and a consequent worldview that is outside of reasoning and wholly without evidence, is exactly what religious belief is. Across a wide swathe of religions.


So just a cursory look through page 4 of this thread throws up a whole fistful of your religious beliefs. And, mind you, this was just one single page of one single thread. There are three more whole pages of this in this thread itself, which can easily be mined to extract even more of your religious beliefs that you have publically declared.

I have now told you what Atheism actually is, per your request.

And I have also shown you, objectively (yes, OBJECTIVELY, by referring to you your own comments that you or anyone else can look up as many times as they like, right here, right now) that your worldview is just as far from that default no-theistic-belief of Atheism as the Roman Catholic’s, or the RSSB-ite’s, or the Muslim’s, or the Hindu Tantric’s. The details of your respective religious beliefs may differ (from those of other religions), but surely when the backdrop is Atheism, when the backdrop is no-belief, then such differences in the specifics of individual beliefs are merely details?

Thus far you have been protesting, many times and in many ways, that you do not have any religious beliefs yourself. I was astonished to hear you repeatedly make such demonstrably false declarations. I hope I have now been able to help you understand how incorrect that view of yours was, and how your worldview is in fact nothing but an amalgamation of very many religious beliefs.


Now mind you, just because I have shown you that your worldview consists of a great many religious beliefs, does not mean that I in any way deride or belittle those beliefs of yours. Far from it! I have the greatest of respect for other people’s religious beliefs (including RSSB’s beliefs, and including your Advaitic beliefs), as long as they do not claim an objective universality in ways that supersede others’ religious beliefs (or lack of such).

Indeed, I myself try to follow the prescribed route of certain religious traditions (including theistic ones) as an attempt to arrive at an experiential understanding that might, just perhaps, supersede everyday reality. (While also leaving open the possibility that there may be no such extra-normal reality at all.) It is because I do give credence to at least the possibility of a truth beyond what has been proved by science thus far, that I keep visiting this blog for instance, for Brian’s insightful articles and for the very many insightful comments here (including yours, which I have expressed appreciation for more than once). So I am in no way putting down your religious beliefs. I am merely trying to show you something that you seemed not to have been able to see on your own, namely, the large number of subjective religious beliefs that go towards making up your own worldview. And I am trying to point out to you your somewhat crude but nevertheless by no means unusual idea about comparative religion -- namely, that “my” particular religion is neither belief nor subjective but objective (despite the complete lack of evidence), that “my” particular religion is not a religion at all nor even a belief but self-evident truth, while every other religion (other than “mine”) is subjective and, ultimately, deluded and wrong and false (or at least, if not false, then not real in the same way that “my” religion is real). That view is naïve as well as obnoxious, and it is by no means unusual. Very many religious believers think that way, and a great deal of mischief is brought about in the world by people holding these kinds of narrow beliefs.


That answers the question you asked me to address “before we move onto the other topic”. Whether you want to move on to “the other topic(s)” now is your call. Like I said, I have no desire to score debating points or to argue for the sake of arguing. If you think you have something to learn from me, or if you think you may have something to teach me, then in either of those cases do let me know. I won’t continue with this discussion if you don’t want me to or if you are indifferent : and I will be happy to continue if you do want me to and ask me. Please read my comment posted on June 23 at 07:34 AM, all of it, and please let me know -- in terms of the issues I have mentioned there -- what (if anything) you want me to now talk to you about.

Quote Osho Robbins :

Appreciative Reader,

I acknowledge that any statement I make has to be subjective by the very fact that I am making the statement.

Even if I make a statement of fact in, say, an accident. It is still subjective no matter how objective I may claim it is.

I may claim that my statement is factual, however, that is just my perception and therefore subjective.

By definition, everything coming from me has to be subjective.

A scientific experiment carried out in a lab, and objectively documented is the only thing that can be considered objective evidence.

All else, no matter how convincing, is, by definition, subjective.

I concede that point.


No, that isn’t what I had meant.

Right, let’s break that up. Subjectivity can be thought about at three levels. The first would be at the level of epistemological fun-and-games, where you can argue that all knowledge is ultimately subjective. Let’s leave that fascinating discussion aside since it is irrelevant here. The next level would be what you say here in the comment I quote, that everything you say is ultimately subjective unless expressly validated. That is true, certainly, but that is trivial and irrelevant, really, to our discussion. One can go beyond these two rather trivial senses, and look at subjectivity in a way that is actually relevant to us, where we can class certain things and ideas as objective, and others as subjective.

Okay, let me illustrate.

.

Suppose you tell me that you have, sitting there right beside your computer, a pink teapot and a pink toy dragon. That would be an objective statement. On the other hand, if you told me that you have with you an invisible pink teapot and an invisible pink dragon, that can neither be seen nor heard nor felt nor detected by any instruments, but which nevertheless are real and exist, then that would be a subjective statement.

.

If you wish I could break that somewhat short paragraph (where I actually skip one or two implicit steps) further down as follows :

Suppose you tell me that you have, sitting there right beside you, a pink teapot and a pink toy dragon. Sure, as you say in your quote, that is a subjective statement, in a very trivial sense.

However, that subjective statement can easily be put to the test. If I am physically present with you, then you can directly show me your pink teapot and pink toy dragon. (And if I’m the suspicious kind, then I can feel them and smell them as well to make sure they aren’t elaborate optical illusions.) That would change your trivially subjective statement into an objective observation. If I am not physically present with you, then you could take a video recording of your teapot and dragon and send it to me, and provided I were satisfied about the authenticity of your recording, you would again have changed your trivially subjective statement to an objective observation. (And if I am not satisfied with the authenticity of your recording, then we can easily think of ways that will satisfy me, say by having someone I know and trust, and who lives in your city, visit you. Or even by having you travel to my city with your possessions, or by having me travel to your city and your house. Those are just details.)

The point is, your statement that you have with you a pink teapot and a pink toy dragon, while trivially subjective (as you say in your quote) is actually an objective observation (because it *can* be validated).

.

On the other hand, if you tell me that you have with you an invisible teapot and an invisible dragon, neither of which can be seen or heard or felt or detected by any instrument, then certainly in the trivial sense of your quoted comment that is a subjective statement. It is subjective because you say it, as earlier. But it doesn’t stop there at that trivial level, no sir! FAr more importantly, this is a “truly” subjective statement, because it simply *cannot* be validated, one way or the other.

I cannot go to you and see them. Nor can you come to me and show them to me. Nor can you record them with your camera and show me. Nor can you validate them in any way at all. You say they exist, because you “know” they do, and you say they do. It is not possible to validate or to invalidate such a statement. For all I know you could be lying or trolling when you say that you “know” of their existence. On the other hand, for all I know you may sincerely believe what you say. That is what makes your invisible teapot and your invisible dragon “truly” subjective (as opposed to your pink teapot and your pink toy dragon).

.

And your Oneness and your Ultimate Reality fall squarely in the category of the invisible teapot and the invisible dragon.

.

Which, let me hasten to add, is not to say that I dismiss your subjective perception of Oneness. If you see my comments, you’ll see I had said right at the outset that your Oneness cannot be validated here, only elucidated, and elucidation was all I sought. That is what I had requested you to do. (And unfortunately you could not even elucidate your perception properly, despite my trying to guide you again and again and again towards some coherent elucidation, but that is another discussion, a discussion which I myself have no desire to pursue, but should you want that critique and feedback for your own “elucidation” -- or because you wish to correct any misperceptions of mine -- then, like I’d said, I’d be happy to go into it for your sake and on your asking.)

The fact that something is subjective does not mean that one cannot try to explore it further. That is why I am interested in things religious/spiritual, and that is why I read Brian’s blog for instance, for his insights on subjects like these and for the often insightful and valuable comments (including, without any doubt, your own truly outstanding insights and comments).

But the point is -- let me say this briefly here since you seem to have rushed us into the #2 point I’d referred to after all without first clarifying the ground rules like I had requested you to -- the point is, your Oneness realization is strictly subjective.

The RSSB devotees’ realization of Sach Khand also is strictly subjective. As are the respective realizations that other traditions like (Hindu) Tantra, and Vajrayana, and Theravadin meditation, and certain Sufi practices, throw up.

In as much as all of these realizations are subjective, to that extent they are all equivalent.

And you know what, for you to claim that your Oneness is “more real” than the RSSB devotee’s Sach Khand, is like your claiming that Invisible Dragons are bigger than Invisible Teapots.

Do you see what I mean?

How the heck can you compare two separate subjective realization of two separate individuals?

True : you can evaluate two subjective realizations that you yourself have had, and can come to a conclusion about which of these two realizations is better or “higher” as far as you yourself are concerned. And you can choose to live your life basis that conclusion if you so wish, since it is your life after all. But that evaluation also would be entirely subjective, and that conclusion too would be subjective and what is more that subjective conclusion would apply to you and to you alone.

.

Religious conflicts arise when people try to bulldoze their personal subjective truths on to other people. It happens all the time. Religious person X will conflate his subjective perceptions and subjective conclusions with some objective Ultimate Truth, and try to establish that “Ultimate Truth” or Ultimate Reality of his at the cost of the subjective truths of other people.

Such conflicts can take the form simply of somewhat obnoxious debates, in which case no real harm done. But such conflicts can very easily take on more overt and direct (and unpleasant) forms of expression, and can even spiral off into Crusades and Jihads and what-have-you. They can further ossify into all kinds of restrictive rules and laws, both prescriptive and proscriptive, put in place in order to elevate some particular subjective position over other subjective positions. It happens all the time all around us. Has always happened, back in times past, and happens even today.

Which is why it is so important to be so clear about this subjectivity business. I’m not denying the possibility (just the possibility, mind, no more) of subjective search (and therefore of subjective conclusion of such search) if one’s predilections take one in that direction -- indeed I participate in such search myself in a small way -- but it is essential, if one is to maintain one’s sanity, to not conflate one’s subjective search (and subjective conclusions, if any) with objective reality.

.

.

PS

You mention scientific experiments. Objectivity, at least in informal settings, needn’t involve labs or experiments at all, nor court-admissible documentation. Usually simply being ‘potentially document-able’ is enough (if I may use that clumsy made-up term). Talking about pink toy dragons is one thing, stories about those can *generally* be fully believed even in the total absence of actual validation ; however, making decidedly extravagant claims about invisible dragons cannot but call forth requests for validation, especially if such invisible dragons are claimed to be Ultimate and Real in ways that others’ visions aren’t, and even our everyday reality isn’t.

Also : I wrote this comment under the assumption that you were speaking of subjectivity only in the trivial sense that I discussed there (since that is the distinct impression I got from your comment, despite your subsequent mention of experimentation -- your reference to your describing an accident, for instance, does seem to indicate that you were speaking in what I described as the trivial sense). But even if you had meant to refer to this second sense of subjectivity (and I had misread your meaning in your original comment), even then this discussion may have been necessary. After all, you had admitted to realizing the subjectivity of your position earlier as well ; and despite that admission commented multiple times, subsequently, in ways that made me think that you had not, after all, realized the actual implications of such subjectivity (as I said to you in an earlier comment).

“All else, no matter how convincing, is, by definition, subjective,” you say there. Well, then, “convincing” to whom? Whom other than your own self? And further : are you so sure it is really as convincing as you think it is after all, even to yourself? You know about how our brains work, and about neurons firing and all that. Are you truly convinced that what you’ve thought and felt and perceived and “known” actually has some kind of reality beyond neurons firing? Are you truly convinced that what you’ve perceived actually has some kind of reality outside of your head, outside of your brain, and that this corresponds to the actual reality “out there”, outside of your head and brains and neurons? [You may really be convinced, I don’t know, I’m merely showing how these questions can assume a whole different dimension once you realize the full implications of subjectivity. When Jesus speaks in the weirdo fundamentalist’s head, we know he’s nuts ; when Oneness speaks in ours, are we sure we’re all there? How are we sure, exactly? And in asking that last question, I mean no offense to you, Osho Robbins, absolutely no snark intended here. Those are exactly the terms in which I question my own self in regards to my own humble attempts at arriving at an understanding of this sort of thing. In speaking to you thus, I could be speaking to myself actually : not that I’ve been blest with anything close to the Realizations you have yourself had, but still.]

This isn’t just semantic quibbling, not just agreeing to label an idea as “subjective” in order to settle an argument. This goes far beyond that, to how one looks at both one’s own realization(s) vis-a-vis others’ realization(s), and at one’s own realization(s) vis-à-vis objective reality ; and therefore this has significant implications on what one’s general world-view will be. I hope I’ve been able to convey some sense of this here.

Quote Jim Sutherland : Attn. Osho Robbins. This Article might knock a little sense back in you, so you quit appearing like a Gray Alien disguised as an East Indian Advaita Guru.


That was a very interesting article, Jim. Thanks much for posting it here, I enjoyed going through it. And I’ve bookmarked it, to browse through other portions later on. Resourceful of you to find something so apt!

But the very vehemence of your comment, and your apparent certainty as implied in that comment, intrigue me.

How do you think this applies, exactly, to Osho Robbins? Do you think he has had his “spiritual ego” activated? But how could you, sitting there miles and miles away from him, possibly know?

And what exactly do you mean when you talk of having some sense knocked back into him? Why is that important to you?

No offense meant or snark implied, Jim. Just curious, given this whole thread, and especially given my very recent discussion on subjectivity (and the equivalence of subjectivities, if I may describe it as such) with Osho Robbins.

Osho, you wrote
"The person on the sant mat path is very egotistical - he thinks he can attain
God, Sach Khand through his meditation.

The greed and ambition has gone wild."

Appreciative Reader you ask

"How do you think this applies, exactly, to Osho Robbins? Do you think he has had his “spiritual ego” activated? But how could you, sitting there miles and miles away from him, possibly know?"


Please see quoted Osho above.

To AP,.....I was not the one who found that interesting Article. A poster I admire posted it on the RSS site, as an example for another Neo Advaitist to consider how he is looking to others on the site. I found the Article very timing, exposing the Sychronicity that one of this group always mentions. I think it nails Osho Robbins right between his eyes. Haha. But he wont admit it.

As for my knowing any thing about him, you, or others I have not met, I guess you will have to have faith in my Intuition, gleaned from fencing with Sant Maters, of all lineages, including mild to rabid nasty Exers. I consider Osho Robbins a very intelligent Exer, a Brother, considering, he is a Charan initiate that will never be able to unlock Charan's Bulldozer Chain that is still hooked to him and all the RSSB Exers that are still here, proving they have never been released, or unhooked, so they still lurk here, hoping for new Revelations that will heal their broken Faith. Osho Robbins is a Wounded Warrier who will be eventually be returned to the Sant Mat Path, either voluntarily, or chased by Charan's dogs. Haha. If not in this life, a future life. Why? Because his path of Oneness will become too lonely to endure for ever, all alone.

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