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May 13, 2017

Comments

Jim: "Manjit who have never been initiated by a Sant Mat Master do NOT have the Astral Form implanted at their Third Eye, nor are hooked to the Chain that binds Disciples to their Masters, so all they can do is keep,........complaining and debating about they will never experience with out being accepted by a Complete Master and initiated by him"

Hehe Jim, you're an endless source of amusement!

My friend, despite your initiations and decades of meditation, you've shared your "mind blowing" recent and apparently most advanced experience here.....a minor dream/vision of Charan. You even thought that I would be so astonished, as would others here, that we would all come back to the sacred fold of the "Great One". You have no idea how hilarious I found that!

You simply don't have the tools to comprehend how ridiculous your perspective is, you are trapped in minor delusions and illusions. As a connoisseur of inner experiences, ecstasies, insights etc, you really haven't got the slightest clue how utterly unremarkable your experience seems to me. Well, remarkable in the sense it demonstrates just how little RSSB satsangis experience and or progress! With your statements, you make unintentional revelations which contradict your desired point!

Lots of theories & dogmas, lots of conceptual (calling it "intellectual" would be an insult to the intellect :) speculations and parroting of partially understood ideas you've read in books.

But what substance do you actually have to back up any of your claims may actually be true? A minor dream or vision of Charan? Brother, despite you initiations, age and meditation, you simply cannot comprehend that you are discussing child's play. You are, quite obviously, discussing topics way, way out of your depth & experience.

Let''s put it quite simply - if there are any readers impressed with your experience after receiving "Initiation" and decades of meditation, then they deserve to follow RSSB!! :) It really is that simple. People go to where they are attracted, to where something is offered to them that appears to them.

Just don't delude yourself in not imagining there isn't thousands if not millions of people, both uninitiated and so-called initiated (which really means nothing, no "astral form" is implanted anywhere, the astral light out of which ANY form can be materialised exists within all human consciousnesses), who have had countless such experiences as children, and have had infinitely more "transcendent" experiences which make those sorts of experiences seem really quite mundane & banal. Again, within your own claims is the seed of your absurdities & delusions. Lots of claims, absolutely zero substance, as self-described (a dream of Charan proves absolutely nothing about any of the concepts you parrot here!).

And the irony of all those who mention "Book learning" on this thread........you cannot make this up!


Osho,

You stand exposed in front of the readers. Your Sant Mat 2.0 has gone for a toss. You have failed to understand the fact that everything in this creation exists in pairs of opposites. There are no MANY without the ONE, there is no ONE without the MANY. ONE can be conscious of its oneness only if MANY exists, similarly MANY require the ONE to be conscious of its duality. Could the ONE be conscious of its oneness if the opposite of it did not exist? Could one be conscious of the darkness if light didn’t exist? Could one be conscious of the light if there was no darkness? For the existence of anything, the opposite of it must also exist. The pairs of opposites co-exist. There is absolutely nothing in this creation, opposite of which does not exist. If there is anything, I would request you to enlighten us.

Jeff Wrote:
"You are completely rattled. You and your Sant Mat 2.0 exploits have been exposed right here on this Church and the readers here have taken note of it. So you are now short of words, you have no substantial arguments left and have given up. Which is good!"

What utter absolute nonsense!
You have not even answered a simple question I have now asked you at least three times. I am afraid, Jeff - it's YOU you had no idea what's going on.
If you can't answer a simple question - what does that say about you?

Jeff wrote:
"Even I know of people who have seen radiant form of the masters within and have had great experiences. But people like Osho try to let these masters down by giving out their own understanding of the teachings and claim there are teachings of the masters. "

You KNOW people? are you kidding? I know people who claim to talk to Jesus, so what?
Does that make it true?

Firstly - You obviously have not seen the radiant form - which means you are writing only theory - not from personal experience.

Even if someone sees the radiant form, it doesn't mean it's real.

This is what Faqir Chand says in part two of the abridged version of "Truth Always Wins"
"The manifestation of my forms at different parts of the country, to different persons at different times, convinced me that whatever manifestations I have been enjoying within (i.e., the holy forms of Hazur Data Dayal Ji), were not the reality, but creations of my faith and mind. It was all shadow ("Chhaya Purush"). It is neither the work of soul, not is it the soul. "


Jeff, you are seriously deluded if you think I am giving out my own personal teachings and pretending they are the teachings of RSSB.

I have simply pointed out what others have voiced. I have not invented Sant mat 2.0 or 3.0
I have simply pointed out and clarified what I and many others have heard. If you don't hear the same thing - it's because you are unable to hear what is being said.
Unlike you, I speak directly from my own experience - not second hand bullshit like you do.
For example - you made a big issue of the "burn the books" point. Creating your own meaning of what Gurinder was saying.

What you don't seem to realise - is that the "burn the books" statement was made in a certain context - in response to my question about "My God is here" (I am not saying this is the only time he has made the statement - but it is ONE of the times)
you can hear the whole thing here at 3:20 - 4.20 of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50

To @Osho,

Chill man !!

And I am sure you know all the essence and just that this weird discussion is dragging so far for eternity... Isn't it just too nostalgic?

No, Not only GSD, I was just reading the texts from Baba Jaimal Singh Ji Mahraj in the letters HE sent to The Great Master,
And it's not different then what GSD says in the Satsangs.

Over and over again HE is mentioning to The Great Master:

"Huzur will take care of all the things.
Leave all your self thoughts, and consider it all belongs to the Anami Purush Radha Soami.
Huzur is very happy with you and you will come to Satlok with me.
Stay focused in your job, job doesn't belong to Govt. the job belongs to me"


To @manjit and the likes,

Interrupting a little bit in your conversations with others:
(but I have a little right as a reader of this blog and reader of your comments)

It's too very boring to read your last 8-10 comments.
You are missing the fun.
Jim's experience is ordinary to you.
777's experience is beyond your perception and you disregard them by sarcastically saying "chosen ones".

Again to repeat,
I admit here again clearly now (maybe a joke for you - as I am very clear on how you are perceiving things these days):

I am having some real extraordinary experiences...
I did have some or the other experiences since my childhood but not as high definition as since last one year or so,
And the current experience is so bright and clear that it's so hilarious that you feel hilarious about it.
I can not share them. I am not allowed to.
In fact, I have not met HIM - so I do not even know that I am allowed or not,
but I can't share them unless I get HIS consent if I can even share them in disguise.
HIS consent is 100% required because these all are coming and originating just from HIM.
Maybe it will take another decade or two, I don't know even if in this whole life I would be able to get to that stage.

I am ashamed to even mention about having some experience for I am a non deserving one,
but for the sake of mentioning that experiences are live and clear and comes to the non-worthy ones like me, and surely be coming to those who are super true and good disciples with hearts full of love and doing great in their meditation and have already paid off all their karmas.


But some are really far and beyond like 777 who have been granted with the permissions by HIM to share it all.

@manjit, truly some are the lucky ones and the hard working ones and believer ones - not only chosen ones.
Everyone who is initiated is the chosen one - but the one who actually does believe in the Guru and do the meditation with love, receives a lot.
But it's not the same with everyone for sure, depending on the karmic account,
It's not a guarantee that everyone is going to have a same experience and at the same timespan.

And as clearly mentioned by Soami Ji Maharaj that much much more important is listening to the sound current as compared to the visual experiences for they are nothing more than
the circus of the perishable realms of Astral and Causal.

Be kind, not to others for not being hilarious, but to yourself and don't make fun of those having experiences on the Path, you will have to cry for years to fill the rivers and it won't be fun.
And that too you do without even being initiated and experience the hardship of focusing of mind and getting to the thoughtless notion ? Yeah, sure, it's easy to be a judge to others... and not even be aware of your own level.
Like me doing it to you right now ?
But yeah, you can do this as you consider it all as "delsions". Correct ?
Sure, but the least you can do is be kind to yourself. If it's not delusions and it's all true, you will be in real troubles.
And do not trust me, but the Masters of all times, this is all true and you are already in troubles.
Correct yourself sooner than later.

Also, Jim's experience of darshan of the Satguru in the dream is not ordinary.
Mark the words: "You can never have darshan of a Satguru without HIS wish. Even in dreams."

In this current world, The Anami Purush Radha Soami is incarnated in the form of Babaji and the RSSB path is the real path to the truth.

I will copy the exact wordings (in Hindi) from Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj which HE written to Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj:

Book: Parmarthi Patra (Hindi) - English: (I think) Spiritual Letters
Letter No: 5 (in one of the oldest prints)

"Is waqt kaliyug mein yeh bakhshish hai ki ek ghadi, adhi ghadi, paav ghadi, 10 minute, 5 minute ya 1 minute ke liye bhi mann surat, nirat aur nij-mann mein yeh pakka vishwas jo jaye ki Satguru Anami Purush hain aur yeh jaan kar unke sath mann, surat va nirat ek kshan ke liye bhi Shabd se lag jayen to aatma Sach Khand pahunchegi." (sic)

English Translation:
This time in the KaliYug, the blessing is that if even for a few moments, 10 minutes, 5 minutes or even for 1 minute, if someone's Mann accepts the Satguru as the Anami Purush in his Surat, Nirant and Nij-Mann and with that acceptance, and connecting his Mann, Surat & Nirat with the Shabd for even a fraction of a second, the soul shall reach the Sach Khand.


You may choose not to respond, or respond in anger or that calling this all again dogmatic and delusions with your nicely crafted writing skills.
Choose whatever, but, be kind to yourself, you have already over dozed yourself.

Manjit, your rant to me almost seems a recording, repetitive , like you told Jiv, M.M., Daniel, and others about their inner ecperiences. I can not compare your drug induced inner experiences with you, as Jiv could, because I never tried drugs. But no matter that you think a donkey is pulling my wagon, I know its a horse, and not a donkey, ( as quoted by Charan) , so I don't need any more of your donkeys to pull my wagon. My one Horse is sufficient. Your posts have convinced Glenn you are " almost" god in human form, and even David Lane seemed to be the most impressed with you, of any one else that ever posted in his RSS Forum. So, you should be proud you have made some converts. Maybe they will ask to be initiated by your new Guru. But what is surprising to me, with your hordes of Spiritual experiences and self hyped Resume, is that you would even consider taking Initiation by an unknown Entity advertising on an Internet site. You should run that by Osho, and Lane to critique, to see if it meets their Oneness and Neural tests. As for me, since we are not in the same League, Happy Trails, where ever they may lead you. You are far beyond my Pay Grade of Spiritual expertise, Manjit de Illusion Ji. But, I KNOW my Horse is pulling my wagon, and not a donkey. 😇

To,Manjit and Isho. How do you rate Dr. Ishwar Puri's inner experiences he shares on his hundreds of You Tube talks? Manjit, he is Old School, old age, and has never admitted to using drugs to induce inner experiences as you admit you have. Do you believe he resides in Sach Khand simultaniously while in his body, and is why he s able to teach endless Satsangs with out notes because of his inner connecfion and experiences? Both of you, ( Manjit/Osho) ...do you believe he is as awakened as Gurinder Singh, as both of you insinuate you are? Come on, be honest! Ishwar says he flies in the Astral Plane, do,either of you? I have, like Super Man, with my arms out stretched before me , steering my Astral body like a Rocket Ship or cruise Missile. I was traveling at WARP speed, headed for other planets in outer space, amd looked back at tiny Planet Earth with all its land masses and blue oceans. I not only was visited by Charan speaking to me, but even had an "Entity" manifest that had bright, Silver White Light pulsing, flashing from its eyes , on-off on-off-on-off in microsecond intervals. The "Entity" was Face and head only, no hair, but very intelligent looking, like a traveler from the Future, trying to communicate with me. And these experiences were accessed by using the Sant Mat Tech and Mantra I was given at Initiation, not by smokin Weed or ingestion of LSD or other Drugs as you keep using to induce new highs to bring back to impress us boring simple Meditators using only the Sant Mat Tech our Masters shared with us. If all the RSSB Initiates shared their Inner experiences , there would be required Libraries of Books to contain the Inner Experiences. But most Initates are not Rebels like me, eilling to share. I wouldn't share, either, if Inwas still young and employed. But my clock is running out, and I feel a need to share with the young seekers instaed of selfishly tsking my experiences to my grave in dilence. I am willing to accept my karma , to be the Bounty Hunter for marked souls. But I share what I do, because I brought Credibility with me to Sant Mat, that was not stolen from entering the back door of my Temple thru my Bung Hole as most Drug Users have, by coming to Sant Mat with their inners already burnt, so are unable to have normal Sant Mat inner experiences as I have. My experiences may be boring,...to you,...but they are the Real Deal, none artificially induced by drugs.

Jeff Writes:
"Jim Sutherland,
All good points. You seem to have understood the teachings well, unlike Osho whose theory stands exposed. Even I know of people who have seen radiant form of the masters within and have had great experiences."

Jeff, are you the official authority on sant mat? Who are you to judge who has and has not understood, especially since you yourself do not understand and also have no personal experience.

This does not qualify you to judge others.

Everything you say is heresay which is why you spout a lot of nonsense.
You take statements out of context and have lots of pre-conceived ideas.

You cannot even hear what your own master is saying to you.
You are unable to answer a simple question.

Yet you claim to be judge and jury when in fact you are totally ignorant and unable to grasp the simplest truth.

Also - just to set the record straight - I am not the inventor of sant mat 2.0 and sant mat 3.0

I am just one of the many observers to notice that the teachings are changing. I also did not coin the terms.

Also the idea that I have created the new teachings is just laughable. Anyone who makes that statement needs to seriously check if they are in touch with reality.

How can I possibly create the teachings? and why would I?


It’s been a while since I heard Gurinder, but based on what Osho Robbins is saying, there appears ‘on the surface of it’ difference between what he (GS) now says in Q and A sessions (his satsangs too?) and what continues to be published/offered in books and general satsangs. As I understood it the core teaching is that a separated ‘soul’ is to return to its original home through the help of a living Master/meditation. This implies a state of duality then non-duality or a sort of ‘rejoining’, (language has is limitations of course). Osho Robbins’ comment that Gurinder is now talking of ‘oneness’ implies that actually there is no duality - a much simpler way of describing things and seemingly quite ‘advaitic’. In the latter, the ego/I or sense-of-self generated by the body/mind, goes about doing stuff to ensure its own continued existence. It is this sense-of-self that maintains belief in drops and separation. So wherein lies the soul?
This apparent difference and possible contradiction between earlier written teachings and what Gurinder now talks of (consistently?) is obviously of no concern to some, but it is to others as this can create confusion and possible misinterpretation. Is soul separate or not? What is it? It certainly should not be confused with the ego. I consider Sant Mat is ultimately non-dual, but the teachings (as still given in satsangs/books) can hinder the removal/dropping of belief in duality/separation.

Best wishes to all

TIm

Osho,

Glad to see you at-least admitting now that all you are saying is hearsay. Earlier you were claiming that the present Great One said all this, now you say this is what others say. Good to see the progress you are making. Keep moving in the right direction, this what you need. It’s as difficult as it may appear. Still long way to go but you have made a good start. I am impressed.

One initiated: "I am having some real extraordinary experiences..."

Me: Well done OI! However, what you don't seem to understand, lacking a wider frame of information, knowledge & experience, is that so are many, many other people, with or without gurus, with scumbag fraudulent gurus and "genuine men of God" alike. Absolutely no difference. Absolutely no well to even tell what the difference, if any,may be. You have become trapped into associating your innate & natural human capabilities with some billionaire businessman & his religious group. It is an interesting, and self-evident, state of affairs. The facts of reality cannot be denied!

One Initiated: "and don't make fun of those having experiences on the Path, you will have to cry for years to fill the rivers and it won't be fun."

Me; Hehehe, priceless :) My friend, your rivers of tears will have to wait, first I must work my way through the hells of Islam & Christianity, they too have warned me! Your post is riddled with baseless dogmatic beliefs & doctrine with absolutely nothing to suggest any of it is even possibly true. You think your having "some real extraordinary experiences" means or proves anything? You reality tunnel is suffocatingly small. It appears you cannot even begin to conceive what is really going on here with these experiences, holding as you apparently do the demonstrably absurd belief only RSSB "initiates" are having these experiences (or at least genuine ones) and that the narratives they "reveal" are literally & objectively "True"...No clue at all....

One initiated: "Like me doing it to you right now ?"

Me: Well, to be honest, I am finding your post quite amusing, so, errrm, yes I suppose! Though also a little guilty, it's obvious I'm riling some people up. See, for me, this is a subject we really should be able to take impersonally. It is too important to take personally, or take one's own self too seriously. Because I'm like this - to my very core - I can foolishly assume others are also like this, take the same approach to the subject, don't get offended personally etc, because all everyone's interested in is rooting out the "truth" whatever that may be. See, I too have my own delusions! Humans! :)

One Initiated: "If it's not delusions and it's all true, you will be in real troubles.
And do not trust me, but the Masters of all times, this is all true and you are already in troubles."

Me: I'm not one to take threats - even ones I perceive as genuinely plausible, which this one of your laughably isn't :) - very seriously at all. I'm really too lazy to be afraid of things, my friend. Besides, if Islam is true, I'll end up in the same place as the "Masters of all times"; Hell. What you gonna do?! :)


To Jim - wow, lots of deceit, manipulation, distortions etc, you're on form!! I have no inclination to address your odd & disconnected from reality/truth posts, just too many untruths contained therein that simply don't interest me. However, it IS odd you keep mentioning "drugs", seeing as my main debate/disgareement with Jiv was that I said I do NOT believe psychedelics can generate experiences anywhere near as "ecstatic", natural, "Grace" filled etc as natural, meditation induced or spontaneous "inner experiences". I base this "belief" on a wide array of experience with all methods. Again, both the vast, vast majority of my own "inner experiences" have been completely natural, and many of them more beautiful & ecstatic than anything induced by entheogenic use. However, and I have to be honest here Jim - whilst you can take it or leave it, anybody who has actual EXPERIENCE with substances like DMT, Salvia or Psilocybin etc will KNOW this is true, and I don't play the deceit/distortion game you do, I just state the truths or facts of my own experience and let the chips fall where they may - the experience you relate is far less remarkable than many experiences that can be had under DMT or Salvia for eg. Really, and I feel a littleharsh saying this, but perhaps the truth shall set you free - your experience is in a completely different league to even those really! It IS indeed good you do your duty and share your experiences, people should be aware.......honesty is good Jim, and I believe you are being honest about this experience! Let the chips fall where they may.......

Osho: "Everything you say is heresay"

Jeff: "Glad to see you at-least admitting now that all you are saying is hearsay. "

Me: Just about sums up the level of pro RSSB argument around here!

To Tim - finally, a semi coherent & reasonable perspective which is pro-RS!

Me: Well, I was sticking around genuinely hoping Sukhbir would find the quote which did or didn't contain mention of wolves.....for a moment I was fascinated by the strange fallibility of my memory. Alas, all I got was a personal translation from a Babani satsang (which Gugu, btw, has requested are not purchased, shared or listened to, a request made when I was at the RSSB dera) which I've never heard and is not the source of my memory. Seeing as he's not returning, I think I'll let up on the Initiates of this forum. It feels kinda awkward that I sense so much emotional fragility from these Chosen Ones that I feel the need to let up....!

Cheerio my dear followers :o)


Here's another cult/religion whose followers were having some "real extraordinary experiences", right from "Initiation". Well worth watching, fascinating:

http://sockshare.net/watch/QG3Xb9do-holy-hell.html

Re. Jim, whose had multiple "initiations" from several "Masters", who has been meditating for decades, apparently, and has shared his recent most mind-blowing & convincing "inner experience" with the RS meditation practice here in order to convince "Marked Souls" of the validity of this path - compare and contrast that experience with those of these people who simply ingested some DMT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihP_TLfbekw

Let the chips fall where they may.

And, just to be clear, I personally think (actually, have experienced) non-entheogen induced experiences are potentially far, far more beautiful, full of love and "Grace"......

To Manjit,
Amazingly lunatic post! All you are saying is Blah-Blah-Blah. Where did you learn this Blah-Blah-Blahism? From the Adyashanti PDFs or from your interesting contender Light Wave Meditation?

To Manjit: do you have a ring in your nose? I'd rather be chained to Charan's Bulldozer than by a ring in my nose like your wild eyed Druggie on the video. None of those DMT induced visions are comparable to visuals experienced above the Third Eye while in Spiritual states, using Sant Mat Medtiation Tech. Plus, by using Drugs, you can never control any thing, after you take your Fix, and before you know it, you are trapped as an Addict. We have control of events using Sant Mat MeditationTech., with all humans experiencing and able to verify, specks, points, and flashes of light, then sun, moon, light, Sound, ....then, passing thru individual visuals, depending on past life karma, then, Samadhi. Or, Void. Or ?.........where ever. But we are in control, when to return, unlike Drug induced experiences. Plus, the Drug induced experiences are never able to be duplicated, or repeated. So, who is in control? Your last two week ends of Drug experimentation you posted in RSS left the readers absolutely clueless of exactly what you saw or heard during your intoxication. Or, should I call it " Medication"?
My best advice I can offer you , is to return to the old Manjit that every body loved , before you were rejected by Baba Ji for initiation, and have been a bitter Bragadocia since, is, to attend his Satsang in tne U.K. this August, and bribe the Security Sewadors to give you the Mic at Gurinder's Q & A time. ( Osho might help you, considering he is tight with the U.K. Security Sewadors. ) Then, with Mic in hand, you will have Baba Ji's undivided attention for those fateful momemts. Meanwhile, eat lotsa Humble pie, and pracice becoming humble. Then, plead your case to Baba Ji and ask him for Initiation again. Some seekers ask several times and are rejected, before they are finally approved. Maybe David Lane will put in a good word for you, now that he is back in good Grace with Baba Ji. Tell him you have read all the books, done all the practicing, gorged on Humble Pie, and are now real ready to take the Vows and will quit rebelling . ( and put in a good word for Osho while you have the Mic in hand. )
😇

Jim,

Within your opinions and convictions, do you ever Reserve the Right to be Wrong? Could there be areas of what you have studied and learned, to be possibly one day, to be found Falsifiable?

From the above comment by sandeep we can see what is happening in RSSB.

Everyone has their own beliefs. And beliefs are such that whatever you believe appears to be true to you.

Nobody is going to tell you that you are incorrect. So you can carry on believing whatever you want to believe

RSSB followers are adamant that a guru is needed. However if you can believe whatever you want and the guru is not going to advise you otherwise how exactly are you on the path of that guru?

To be on any path you must understand that path correctly before you can walk it.

We can all clearly see that just about everyone has their own version of the path.

In the old days the disciple had personal contact with the guru and the guru would explain.

These days its different. Despite all the question answer sessions its pretty clear that most disciples are confused.

Everyone is doing their own thing and they all think they are right.

Jim writes
"THAT is Sant Mat 101 Boys & Girls! Not complicated at all. Deal with it Skeptics, or offer Marked souls a purer Path."

A muslim can say the same about islam
As can the follower of any religion

It doesnt make it true. Just a belief

Osho:...These days its different. Despite all the question answer sessions its pretty clear that most disciples are confused.

Everyone is doing their own thing and they all think they are right.

....including you osho

Roger, I think I have a very eclectic, open mind. I might be wrong in every thing I believe. Yet, I really feel I am guided by my Higher Soul Self, that never lets me stray far enough off the beaten path to let me get in to situations that will leave me no way out. If you have ever taken the time to scan my blog, you would have never asked your question. Sure I can be wrong, and have admitted it, most of my life when proven wrong. But in Spirituality and Mysticism, no one can prove a donkey pulls my wagon when I know its a horse. I really haven't found any new Revelations the last 25-30 years or so, even with the Internet hosting just about every new thought, old thoughts, channeling, etc. that any one can access. Five years ago, here is where I was on a post on my blog. I haven't strayed far from these to date.

Inspiration, Thoughts, New Ideas, ...HOW & WHERE Do They Come From? If We Are Puppets, WHO Is Puppet Master?

I have been feeling like writing something about the mystery and methodology of how we manage to suddenly "catch", or "feel" thoughts, especially those that appear new to us, or that suddenly appear out of "some where?"

In order to arrive at even the minutest speculations about this subject, we must first establish a few assumptions.

1) "Something, or Some One," sends those thoughts to us, and are successful of penetrating our skulls, and entering our brains.

2) Or, No one or nothing sends anything to us, and we are only parroting information that we have either read, heard, or seen some where during our life here on earth, in these bodies.

3) If the thoughts are being sent to us, than by Whom, and how? God? ( He/She/It/ETs/spirits/Angels/Messengers/Demons/Aliens/Magicians/Shamans/Witches/Warlocks, humans/animals/???) The list could be endless, depending on on the belief system of the person receiving the thoughts.

But, since this is my Blog, and I am the Writer, than, please allow me the Honor of speculations.

I realize, and know, that after 70 years on earth, in this body, I have read, heard, seen, and experienced stuff that at least, gives me some foundation to weigh, any inner inspiration, or messages, or thoughts that suddenly appear to me, seemingly, out of no where.

I ofter wonder, why my inspiration and ideas seem to be so boring, or have such little value to the world, and hardly worth sharing with any one, other than the few that stumble onto this Blog, and stay even long enough to read past the first post. I also wonder if great people of powers, such as Presidents, Dictators, Kings, Queens, Business people, receive their thoughts the same way.

Well, I am finally arriving at the place in my life, where I am more willing to share exactly what I believe, ( with some), but not all), rather than trying to please all, and tell every one what they want to hear, in support of what they already believe, and are always looking for other confirmation to support their own belief systems.

For me, I believe in an infinite Creator, or Cosmic Power, that no human being has ever fully encountered, or saw and had conversations with, face to face. ( Including Mormons) WE Christians, refer to this Creator as God, but I could fill pages of words used as Titles for this Creative Power I choose to call God, but have already shared some of them on my other Posts here on this blog.

But, since I have never saw God, face to face, ( if another face is actually even involved), I prefer to understand my Creator as THE ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT, WHO has created every thing that has ever been created, and continues to expand creation, as I write, and you read!

I can't even imagine for a second, how materialists, or Atheists, are able to continue living life here, with out any faith in their survival at death of the body, or their belief that it all ends here, so I won't even go there, or comment about such a drab and boring subject.

I believe that my Creator, God, not only has created everything here, on earth, but has also created, and controls all creation in the Universe and Galaxies! I surely can't explain how, or the mechanics, or methodology, or reason God creates, but I know every living thing has a portion of God Anatomy, in order to be a living specie, other wise, no life would be present any where.

But, I AM NOT GOD, nor ever expect to be, in spite of Eastern religious belief, taken from mostly Hindu literature. I do believe that God clones spirits from SPIRIT, and that spirit is called Christ, by we Christians. That spirit is called by other Names by other religions and sects. ( See my other Posts on the blog if interested is seeing other Names)

So, to me, or my understanding, GOD is ETERNAL SPIRIT, and each living entity has been clones from that SPIRIT, and have been given a portion and have become living "souls." Bible records that God breaths His Breath into humans and they become living souls! It also records that the spirit of man is the Candle of The lord!" ( Don't want to Bible thump, or preach, so as not to offend the reader and chase him/her away.)

So, BEFORE that spirit is breathed into humans ( I will only discuss human spirits, on this post, or it can get real controversial), that spirit, was created by SPIRIT at some time in the past, but no one including me, knows when. But, once created, that spirit is Eternal! That I believe, and is what I choose to live by. So, considering NO ONE really KNOWS just where God resides, or where "Heaven" really is located, individual spirits that God has created in the past, are spirits when not materialized, but are "souls" once they have incarnated into HUMAN bodies. So, again, after God breaths Breath into humans, they become living souls.

OK, so far, so easy to understand! So, humans are born, live life, and die. Its all part of the process in the "Play of Consciousness." So, as soon as the body dies, and the spirit again is released from the body, since it is Eternal, it re-enters the spirit realm. Religions argue about where spirit goes. But, for now, let's just agree that it goes some where, and is no longer in the human body.

Now these spirits, too numerous to even number, are still controlled by Eternal Creator, SPIRIT, i.e. God. As in earth life, we each have different agendas, lives, jobs, etc. etc. There is always some sort of "Chain of Command", regardless of what Nationality or country humans find them selves born in. So, someone is always communicating with humans from a material level, and teaching them, but what about thoughts, and intuition, or inspiration again?

Well, there are some egotists who have the audacity to think they have God's private Hot Line, and receive their instructions directly from Him! But, that's not my belief.

I believe that I receive my thoughts from dis-incarnated spirits, who were once humans, or at least, the thoughts that I receive that I can recognise, or sort out to have originated on earth. Just as here on earth, not every human has the same knowledge, morals, or beliefs. Why would spirits become geniuses when leaving human bodies that were idiots? Spiritual growth is a constant progression, forward, towards SPIRIT, so I weigh any thoughts, or messages I receive, based on my experience and learning while here. Of course, Reincarnation and Karma have to be considered, otherwise, no telling where such thoughts could be coming from.

I have read all the possibilities of where different humans receive their thoughts, messages, and instructions from.

Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha, Mohammad, the Virgin Mary, Catholic Saints, Indian Gurus, human spirits asleep and Astral projecting, Remote Viewers, Shamans, Aliens, demons, Angels, Prophets, Saints, etc. etc. But, we have to be reasonable enough, to settle the fact that none of us are important enough in Eternal Creation to have the only Direct Channel to SPIRIT. Sorry, Pentecostals, speaking in Tongues isn't gonna enlighten you, or make you God, or enable you to get any private Spiritual information worth trying to change anything in the world.

I believe the Chain of Command is used in the Spiritual World by Creator SPIRIT GOD, Who uses spirits to continue the Play of Conciousness. Other planets, in other Galaxies, where ever life forms, in material form exist, also have incarnated spirits cloned from SPIRIT. So, I can't remember ever receiving any messages from any of them, or I'd have a whole lot more interesting information to share with Y'all right now, but, meanwhile, until I do receive any thing of interest, I remain, and bid Y'all pleasant and Eternal Journies, in SPIRIT.

Jeff wrote:
"Osho, Glad to see you at-least admitting now that all you are saying is hearsay. Earlier you were claiming that the present Great One said all this, now you say this is what others say. Good to see the progress you are making."

Jeff - you seriously need to check yourself into the nearest nut-house.
Surely you cannot be THAT stupid. I merely pointed out that others have heard him make those statements - not just me.

Somehow - in your limited pea-brain - that means that ONLY others have heard him say it. How the heck do you make that assumption?

Where do you get your logic from? Even a five year old can figure out that the two are not mutually exclusive.

That just because I have said that others have heard him, does NOT MEAN that therefore I HAVE NOT! And just in case you are totally thick - you can hear me saying on my videos that I personally asked BabaJi the question and what his answer was.

And you say - I am admitting that It's hearsay?
Seriously Jeff - you are making a complete fool of yourself.

It is that type of warped thinking that makes you write complete bullshit.
And you have still not answered a simple question that I have asked you plenty of times now.

Just admit that you have no idea what you are saying.

You haven't got the ability to have a logical argument with anyone because you are unable to use simple logic.

Wow, comments zoom well past the century mark, I see. Trust RSSB-related topics to heat up the discussion here -- especially when the revered head honcho is (if only by proxy) batting out there!

Although a regular reader of Brian’s website, I rarely comment these days, since Brian himself as well as the other commenters here generally think though and express what I might myself think up and say, and far better than I myself ever would. But I simply had to chip in here and add to the comment score, if only with one or two humble singles! Here’s rooting for a double century already!

.

While here, let me ask Osho Robbins a question, if he isn’t exhausted answering people’s questions and battling their comments, and will take one more.

.

Osho Robbins, at one point in this long series of comments, when “Penny” attempts to denigrate what she considers your (non-experiential) book-learning, you rebut her by declaring that your Advaita-ish comments are indeed borne of actual experience. You also quite emphatically, in your comments to Jim Sutherland, refer to the emptiness (not some Advaitic/Buddhistic emptiness, but the ordinary sort of emptiness, that is, the pointlessness) of mere opinions and conclusions (as opposed, presumably, to real knowledge borne of real experience). Would you talk of those experiences of yours please?

Your experiences, in whatever way and form and sequence you feel comfortable presenting them here, but perhaps you could ensure you answer these specific sub-points within your answer :

(a) What were these experiences of yours, exactly? Just the experiences, distilled, and shorn of all dogma/ theory/ hypotheses/ opinions/ speculations/ conclusions.

(b) How did you come by these experiences? Were they the result of effort of any kind? You do say, more than once, that all effort is redundant and pointless, so might such experiences have come about -- if not directly as a result of effort per se -- at least in the course of following some kind of practice or system ; or did you simply come by these experiences wholly accidentally and literally spontaneously?

(c) Moving now from the experiences themselves to your interpretation of such experiences : In what way, exactly, do you see these experiences as validating the Advaitic position of “Oneness”? That is, how, exactly, did your empirical (if subjective) observations (in this case, your experiences) lead you to your (subjective) validation of your Advaitic hypothesis/theory?

.

Osho Robbins , while I remember your pseudonym/Avatar from earlier comments of yours that I’ve read here at Brian’s “church”, we’ve never, so far as I can recall, ever discussed stuff one-on-one ourselves, so perhaps I should clarify that I’m no RSSB-ite myself. I hold no torch for Babaji Gurinder Singh, neither to revere him and brighten his halo, nor to burn him down : no skin in the game, in other words. And I’m absolutely NOT trying to mock you or bait you in any way when I ask you to relate your experiences. I’ve enjoyed reading this very long discussion here, both sides of it, and am genuinely interested in your answers to my questions.

There are many allegedly enlightened ones who have very clearly spoken of experiences they’ve had, which directly led them to an Advaitic realization. People like Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadutta Maharaj come to mind : their “realizations” about Oneness came not merely from reasoning or from thinking things through but from real and concrete experience (that is, subjectively concrete, and real at least to them). Even Paramahansa Yogananda (of the celebrated Autobiography) speaks of experiences during meditation that I suppose might be considered Advaitic, although he does not himself join the dots to the Oneness conclusion (at least not in that book). I’m curious if you yourself have had experiences like these, Osho Robbins, and if so what they are.

Manjit, I’m intrigued by your mention of your apparently diverse “experiences”, some fuelled by certain specific drugs, some not (to paraphrase from one of your comments above). Would you talk of these experiences of yours (or, if they’ve been too numerous, then of those experiences that to you seem the most remarkable or at least those which turned out to be the most pivotal for you personally)? What led you (I mean what process, or what sequence of events or efforts) to such experiences, and what were the experiences actually like?

Also -- since you’ve evidently, from your comments, analyzed these things a good deal (rather than simply accepting your experiences, or accepting some doctrinaire explanation about them) -- how exactly do you interpret your experiences, and what do you think about them in the larger scheme of things? Have they been of any real use at all to you, and what overall world-view do they lead you towards? (That’s a great many questions, I realize, and a request for a potentially very lengthy answer : so whatever and however much you are comfortable answering here.)

And finally, if I may be permitted a third question : You mention at one place that these “experiences” are quite commonplace, and that thousands and perhaps even millions have had them. Do you mean that literally, and can you point me to some source for those numbers (and I don’t ask this in order to challenge you about the exact numbers, I only mean source/s that point towards such large magnitudes, generally speaking -- so that I’d be fine if, in case it turns out there are no documented sources as such that you referenced, you could then talk anecdotally of subjective sources that led you to such large magnitudes in this context).

P.S. You have provided some video links in your comments here, which perhaps discuss what I’ve asked (or perhaps not) : if it isn’t too much trouble, may I request text replies to what I’ve asked, or links to text postings elsewhere? Accessing video links is a bit of an issue at my end.

Jim Sutherland, One Initiated : It was interesting reading about your experiences here. I’ve read comments from both of you earlier also, right here on Brian’s blog, which touch on your experiences. What I was wondering is this : Over at RSSB, you aren’t “allowed” to talk of your experiences generally, right? You, One Initiated, do say that experiences by RSSBites are plentiful, it’s just that they don’t talk about them because they aren’t allowed to. So, when you do have some experiences, how do you relate these subjective experiences to what your RSSB doctrine/teachings map out? Are you allowed to talk about your experiences (in order to evaluate them, and see if you’re on the right track or not) with perhaps some senior RSSBites appointed for this purpose, or perhaps with Babaji himself? You know what I’m driving at : how does this work, is there some perhaps private space/forum where these things are talked about (with full approval of the RSSB organization), and perhaps specific guidance given out with respect to specific experiences?

(Clarification, considering how heated and adversarial this discussion has become, at least in parts : I’m not mocking you or baiting you. Genuinely interested, genuinely want to know.)

For instance, One Initiated, when you see the refulgent being who’s not your Guru, the one who’s all face and no hair (or you, Jim, lose yourself in that Void) : how do you know you’re seeing what you “should” see? That this isn’t some “negative” manifestation that’s popped up to lead you astray ; or, alternatively, that this isn’t some out-and-out hallucination? Since you don’t discuss all this generally -- Who gives you this one-on-one, specific guidance that you as well as every meditator will necessarily need at some point?

To appreciative reader: regardless of Rules, most initiated RSSB Satsangis who become friends, discuss and compare their inner experiences. Obviously, with 10,000,000 initiated RSSBers , Baba Ji can't answer all questions, OUT SIDE, in his physical form, but he does, INSIDE, to his Initiates who know how to access his Radiant Form,...which are many. They do not duscuss their inner experiences publically, for other reasons than disobeying the rules. They most likely have emplyers who monitor their Internet and Facebook comments and activities, as well as Businesses with Clients, and want to remain autonomous. As for accessing fradulant entities inside, RSSB Initiates test the entities, by reciting the Simran, i.e. Mantra given to us at initiation. If the entities remains, they are trustworthy, but if they are not, they vaporize with the Mantra. Plus, they usually appear to the left of the Third Eye, while the Trust Worthy appear to the right. But only Initiates can varify this. Why don't you ask David Lane to verify or disqualify my comments. He has spent decades inside using the Sant Mat Tech I was given.

Appreciative Reader

Without going into too much detail, which would take far too long,

there are a few things to understand
while a person can have experiences (as indeed I also have) - they are irrelevant to enlightenment.

A disciple following a duality path is actively seeking experiences.

Enlightenment is not an experience. It is the disappearance of the "I" or the ego. So there is nobody left to have an experience or to report it.

It is not the VOID that Jim Sutherland describes - because it is the end of the individual.

There is no question of there being individuality within the ONE. We just call it the ONE for want of a name. What it really means is the absence of all phenomena. No time, no space, nothing.

So who can describe and and even claim to have attained it.

So, understand enlightenment is not at attainment. It is not an achievement. It is not something that I have done.

It is a LOSING of everything including ME.

SO even to say "I am enlightened" is the biggest lie, because there is nobody there to get enlightened.

The moment it happens - the claimer disappears.

It is full of contradictions because even to say "the moment it happens..>" is untrue because it is simply a discovery of what was always the case, not something that I attain at some particular time.

This is also no sadhana, no practice, no form of doing can take me there. It is a matter of dropping all the ideas, concepts I have accumulated my entire life.

That is why RSSB followers can never arrive. They are thoroughly immersed in doing and achieving and desiring. Thats why they ask the master for "Grace".

They are asking him to help them achieve spiritual success.

However, enlightenment is the opposite. No more seeking.

If there is nothing, what is the seeker seeking?

He must have mistaken the nothing for something.


Osho, you are playing on words. Have you also mstaken your self , that is some thing, as nothing? Or, are you nothing , that can't know you are something, because there is no you that ever was, is, or will ever be, some thing?

Utter circular reasoning nonsense. as all of Neo-Advaita rhetoric is nonsense. Are you planning to rent a Tent and start selling tickets to come hear you teach Sant Mat 102-103 to compete with Asyashanti who scores $70 USD a head, for the gullable to come hear him talk?

I don't think any RSSB Initiates will pay to hear you, if your example here in Brian's Church is any example of how many Converts you will convince to abandon RSSB to follow you. 😍😇💤💤💤💤💤🙏🏻

Cheers, Mate,
Jim

Jim wrote:
"Osho, you are playing on words. Have you also mstaken your self , that is some thing, as nothing? Or, are you nothing , that can't know you are something, because there is no you that ever was, is, or will ever be, some thing?"

Now let me quote from Charan Singh Ji himself: (from your own site)

"Q. 363. What was in the beginning?
A. First, there was only the Lord, who is without beginning and without end. He has projected Himself everywhere . There was nothing besides Him. He was the only one. All that we see is just His own projection. Everything is projected from Him. If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one. He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.
Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?

Is Maharaj Charan Singh Ji also playing with words? And how much will you sell his tickets for?


If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one.
He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.

That means, Jim, that there is only HIM - and no Jim. Jim is unreal, imaginary, maya. - Charan Singh is saying this - not me!

Still don't believe him, He goes on......

"How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?"

Jim is gone tomorrow and is unreal - just like a passing dream.

Only the ONE is real - there is nothing else. Nothing besides the ONE LORD exists - Maharaj Charan SIngh says so,

He further says

"He is the only One-always was, is and will be. "

THE ONLY ONE - what else can that mean other than that there is no separate entity that goes by the name of Jim.

If there is - then you will have to say Maharaj Charan Singh Ji in wrong, which I don't think you will say.

Or will you?


Hi Jim,

I just re-read the text I just posted and there is a section that rhymes really well

and would also serve as a great mantra - much more powerful than simran.

In fact if you take this as a mantra from Maharaj Charan Singh Ji direct to you - you may realise your non-existence right now.

The mantra is
"there is no Jim, only HIM"
or
"there is only HIM, there is no Jim"

to make it more powerful, you can add some authenticity as below:

"There is no Jim, only HIM. There is only HIM, there is no Jim" - Maharaj Charan Singh Ji

in no time at all (since there is no time either) you will become advaita not just understand it.

Ramakrishna was a devotee of Kali - he would go into ecstasy meditating on Kali.

When Totapuri met Ramakrishna, he showed him that he was deluded in that Kali was also part of maya / illusion.

and Ramakrishna was finally free of all form.

"May the love of the form lead you to the love of the formless" - Maharaj Charan Singh Ji.

ramakrishna and totapuri:

https://www.beezone.com/da_publications/totaex.html

One Initiated wrote:
“To @Osho, Chill man !!
I was just reading the texts from Baba Jaimal Singh Ji Mahraj in the letters HE sent to The Great Master, And it's not different then what GSD says in the Satsangs.
Over and over again HE is mentioning to The Great Master:
"Huzur will take care of all the things.
Leave all your self thoughts, and consider it all belongs to the Anami Purush Radha Soami. Huzur is very happy with you and you will come to Satlok with me."
Which Satlok is he talking about? There is no Satlok. That is just a fiction created to entice the disciple.
Of course there cannot be a place called Satlok, and there is also no “Jaimal” to take a “Sawan” to Satlok.
Why? Because the truth is the ONE. Which means there is no individual. No Sawan, No Jaimal, no GSD, No Osho, no Jim.
Of course these exist in this moment – just like the dream exists in the moment it is happening. However, when we wake up, we say “It was just a dream – it was not real”
WHY do we say that? Why do we say the dream was UNREAL, when in fact it REALLY WAS HAPPENING at the time?
It’s because it has NOW ENDED. It wasn’t forever.
In the same way – this life, Osho, Jim, GSD, all SEEM real because they are here in this moment.
However, they will all end, just as everything in time will end.
And everything that ends is unreal.
So I am not saying that Jim has not had those experiences. I am not saying that people do not have experiences. I am saying they are not REAL in the ultimate sense of the word.
REAL is that which remains forever (beyond time and space) and that means everything here is unreal – that includes my identity.

To: Brian
Thanks for maintaining this blog and allowing so many comments.
I can totally see how many “comments pending for moderation” notifications you must be having and then publishing them all.
Really from my heart, thank you so much.


To: Everyone
I am an Indian, lives in New Delhi.
If you are coming to Beas and going via Delhi and need any sort of assistance,
please shoot me an email at: one initiated at gmail
I will be more than happy to help in my possible capacity.


To: Appreciative Reader

Here is the long comment for you:

Genuinely telling you my feelings related to the experiences.

First of all, I must mention that I have not yet met my Master, my Babaji inside.
I have not been advanced to that level and that’s truly a great level to achieve, by HIS grace and disciple’s effort.
And it’s not something which can be achieved in a jiffy.

An extremely important procedure is required to be able to get to that and this has been repeated over and over again by Jaimal Singh Ji Mahara in the letters written to Sawan Singh Ji Magaraj:
The acceptance of the fact that the current living Master is really the Anami Purush incarnated in the Human Form.
HE has clearly mentioned in the letters, till there is the slightest doubt left in the disciple, HE will not appear.
Along with that, there is whole lot of Karmas which needs to be wiped off before a disciple being able to witness HIS master inside himself.

At one place HE mentions that seeing the Master’s Radiant Form is just like seeing yourself in the Mirror,
clearer the mirror, clearer and classier will be the inner Darshan.

Again to repeat what HE is mentioned all around the book: two things with prime importance:


  • Accepting the Master as actually the Anami Purush

  • Consistently Listening to the Sound Current as much as possible - which really cleanse the Karmas.

The Simran and HIS Dhyan is only to be able to constantly remain connected with the Sound Current,
It’s the Listening to Sound Current which is going to cleanse the karmas and make the disciple able to have Darshan of HIS Radiant Form.

Now, on this topic, there is are endless discussions and debates on this blog and also on lots of other websites,
that unless you have a proof, how would you accept the Master as Anami Purush.
Well, to some and others (like manjit etc), the debate has a totally different vertical: weather there is anything such as Anami Purush at all ?

I really don’t know how to answer how a new disciple can accept this logic of existing of Anami Purush, Satpurush and Living Master.
I do know that this all is HIS grace on the disciple, only then the disciple starts to accept these facts, although not proven in first place.
Many people here call it brain wash - and again I don’t know how to answer that.
But, yes, I can tell that there is an inner calling with so much love filled heart, which tells that what Master is explaining is really the Truth.
And with this acceptance of Truth the disciple asks for initiation and then starts meditating and then slowly and slowly and very slowly,
the proofs starts to appear along with much much more big doses of the Love from the Master.
The tricky part here is, if the disciple fills himself with ego and starts to acclaim that these small yet powerful experiences are coming because of his own efforts,
and starts shouting out loud, the experiences stops coming and there is a valid reason as Masters explains… there is no scope of ego.
Because in reality all these experiences are because of HIS grace and not because of his efforts.
The ego can really ruin things very quickly and can shut down everything for a disciple.
Under the ego what Bulleshah did and how did his Master Shah Inayat made him to learn it is worth reading.

It’s a fact that those who keeps their mouth shut and totally by their hearts (not only their words) accepts that this all is coming because of HIS Amazing Grace,
the experiences keeps on improving day by day: as said in Gurubani:
“Nit nayi bahar”
i.e. every other day’s experiences is far and far better than the previous one
And this only happens in the Spiritual Bliss - all the worldly joys gets monotonous over and after a certain timespan,
but the Spiritual Bliss, even of the same level, is much much more joyous every next time when experienced
(And I am eligible to accept and mention this as it’s my personal experience as well).


As far as I know, there is no private forum/place where RSSB initiates secretly discuss their experiences.

Yes, the initiates are allowed to talk about the experiences with Babaji for sure,
anyone can write a letter to Babaji at Beas and they righteously get a very appropriate response.
The response even includes the clarifications on wether the experience is a real one,
or it’s from the negative power and to stay away and keep the Simran on,
just like Jim mentioned very correctly:
Even if by keep doing the Simran, the experience stays, it’s a valid one,
otherwise the visual will skip away.
Apart from that, at times there are some very senior (and reached ones) are there at Beas,
who are granted with permissions to talk to and clarify your doubts.

One such great person I know is “Gyani Arur Singh Ji” who used to be at Beas,
he was given permissions by Huzur Charan Singh Ji Maharaj,
so that any disciple can take time with him and discuss their experiences and clarify any doubts.
I know it because my mother had personally met Gyani Ji, for clearing some doubts.
And the experience of meeting him she shares till date, his face was bright red and when she sat down near him to talk to him, she was constantly getting a fragrance which is beyond the capability of a perfume and beyond the understanding of how and where this fragrance is coming from. So actually meeting him itself was a kind of overwhelming experience which got added to her beautiful memories.
Gyani Arur Singh Ji has passed away since long.


Currently, in Beas, one can get in contact with “Master Puran Singh Ji”,
why he is known as “Master” is because he was a school teacher and in Indian tradition a school teacher in rural areas is called as “Master Ji”,
he lives in Beas now, a very aged person, I think around 90-100 years old… and still radiates a tremendous energy and dedication in Sewa as a young man.
The first time you will meet him, you are sure to realise that he is not an ordinary disciple, there is something grand around him.
If you want to ask something and discuss something with him, you can meet him, it’s not easy though.
Anyone who comes with any sort of question or for any reason to meet him, before even starting any conversation, he asks either one of two things to him to complete, only after that he allows to speak a word:


  • Sit on meditation right then and there for a minimum of 2.5 hours

  • he will direct you to a sewa, go and do it for 2-3 hours before coming back and ask him anything

this is very interesting :)

I had a chance to meet him once in one of my visits to Dera Beas.


Coming back to my personal experiences:


Even by telling that I am having experiences makes me feel too bad as I do not have a slightest of intention to make any impression on anyone,
and it’s all being done by my Master and only HE is giving everything.
But of course without mentioning it I do not have any other mean of saying that it’s true that disciples do receive the gifts of these out of the world experiences from HIM.
And no one in this world has any means or any way to record the beauty of those experiences in any way to be able to express it to other to make somebody believe in it.
And that is so good in my opinion, because as Soami Ji Maharaj said in HIS book that faith will only get solidified once the disciple will see with his own eye and not only just read it from book,
or listening from his Master… and more believe will lead to more experiences. You see the point: it’s so inter-related and it has to be carried forward in a lock-step game.
The firm believe and faith along with the love filled meditation will lead a disciple to experiences and the experiences will further strengthen the belief and the faith.

As I have mentioned earlier on several occasions that I am currently not in a position to tell my experiences directly.
However, I can here express the aftermaths of having these little (but grand) experiences - which also gives a disciple a further assurance:

After a decent time spent in meditation (with the thoughtless notion and in the state of bliss), I observe the following things:

  • Some very small but outstanding experience (can’t explain it, but I experience it say once in a week or a few times in a month when I do meditation, and I experience the same in a little grander version that too with 100x frequency under HIS feet when HE gives me the physical darshan when I attend HIS Satsang) These experiences are many times termed as delusions by the non-believers or exers. But anyone who has received it by HIS grace knows this is in real and it’s so so grand in nature yet very tiny and subtle that can’t be explained. Even if the whole population of the world unites and tells the disciple that it’s not real and your are been fooled, disciple is not going to believe because the inner connection the disciple experiences with HIM is matchless, there is nothing in this world which can be comparable to these experiences.
  • After the meditation your breathing frequency drops significantly and it’s length also gets way way too shortened. Like, once you inhale.. sometimes many seconds have passed and still you have not exhaled and you are not doing it consciously, it is happening to you and you are just witnessing it.
    This is many times mixed and matched with Pranayaam, but I can surely tell you that this is not Pranayaam. In Pranayaam, you do achieve this kind of state, but in that you need to spend countless breaths initially and focusing altogether on your breaths - this will actually lead to activating different chakra and not Crown chakra - whereas in Sant Mat meditation the focus is primary going to be on the Crown Chakra

  • From the top of the head (crown chakra) to your whole chest feels like super wet, and when I actually checked there is no wetness outside it’s all plain and dry, still it feels as if someone has poured so much liquid on your head and made all your upper body so pleasantly wet. I don’t know what it is, but it’s truly awesome - nothing in the world gives such a feeling and experience.
    Dogma ? Delusion ? - these are hilarious words for someone who is experiencing this feeling
  • Generally my voice has a decent throw and it’s loud enough in it’s own sense with a decent volume. However, after HIS grace in the meditation, what I experience is that voice becomes really really low, the volume just vanishes at such extent that sometimes it’s inaudible. there is no longer a throw left in the voice, it becomes so soft and polite. I myself love that voice so much and many times I feel it’s not my own voice at all and I so much love hearing to that… it goes away slowly as I keep indulging back into the worldly jobs and other countless responsibilities I am going through the life.
    I think some subtle changes definitely affects every chakra, and probably when throat chakra gets affected by HIS love, this type of stuff happens - and it’s just unmatchable.
  • The whole body feels so lightweight, every step you take feels like you are really sliding or flying or walking so smoothly. I literally cross checked on the weighing machine and body weight is same, but still it feels way way lightweight. I have no explanations on what it is.
  • You tend to cry so much frequently. Evertime you think of your Master, your eyes gets filled with tears with no specific reason. Sometimes it’s said that the soul wants to get nearer to the Master and that’s why it cries so much… so that maybe for the subtle terms not physical. Because I have been in this state and this state was becoming more and more intense as I visited Beas and attended HIS Satsang. And there was no sadness in crying, there was some inexplicable joy in that crying in that state. Other than this I don’t cry easily for any sort of worldly matters, even in the time of extreme physical and mental pains as I remember all those days of poverty in my early life. But being in meditation and love of the Master it’s just like endless crying - sometimes I am so much into it that I want no one to come near me and let me cry for hours and days in solitude - of course it doesn’t happen as there is so much other worldly things which needs my attention. I have no explanation of this.
  • The Master feels extremely near. I have never seen HIM near me, but whenever by HIS grace there is some good meditation bliss… after the meditation at every step it feels HE is somewhere near - on sofa, in the car seat, around the bed - everywhere.
  • Automation of the Simran. The more you practice meditation the better it gets. Whenever there is a great meditation session and bliss starts to come, after that kind of session you will realise that you are not making any effort in doing the Simran. Even after the meditation, it’s just getting repeated internally on it’s own continuously consistently unless you start indulging in something which requires your attention. Again this is my state currently: that as soon as I start giving attention to other worldly jobs, the automated Simran goes away and I realise that now I am putting efforts on doing the Simran… there are many many disciples whose automated Simran (Ajapa Jaap) is with them 24x7.

Also, by this, I want to tell the value of attending the Master’s Physical Presence.
Of course it’s been said the real Master is the inner Master and the Physical Master is only there to guide you and explain you towards inner,
this is true but this doesn’t mean that Physical Master has any shorter value than the inner one.
The Physical Master is a Grand Living Overspilling Ocean Of The Love who is radiating plethora of tonnes of love photos every nanoseconds that you can’t remain unaffected if you keep going under HIS feet over and over again … and it really really matters to be under HIS feet even in the Physical Form.
And this is purely by my own personal experience.
I can totally understand why this is hugely underplayed by Babaji, because of the ever growing Sangat, it’s not easy to give darshan of Physical Form to everyone everytime.
If you read literature by Soami Ji Maharaj, you will know this for sure - those times were very different and Sangat was very less.
But, I am telling you, once a disciple knows this phenomena, he is not going to stay at home and going to HIM over and over again.
That’s why Babaji emphasises more and more on meditation and listening to the sound current.

Many people falsely complains that Babaji’s preaching is changing and this and that and bla-bla.
The preaching is changing in the wordings seeing the time-space requirements and changements of the current times, but someone who is filled with love, will know that the essence is same - there is no change in the teachings, there might be different wordings are in use on the stage but the essence is same as ever.
The essence was and is the only same and is defined in one go: “Surat-Shabd-Yog”
i.e. Connecting your Surat with the Shabd (the Sound Current).

I have only shared which I feel it can be.
There is so much more but I can’t explain it. Whatever I have written is only 10% of what I have.
I want to explain the rest of the 90% as well, not to mention about me having that, but to mention about HIM - about HIS Grandeur - but I simply can not do that.
And I know the 100% of mine is only a 0.00000001% of what it is - so yeah, a long way to go.


Lots of love to everyone.


Hi, Jim. So : (a) informal discussions amongst Satsangis ; and (b) inner guidance from the Radiant Form of the Guru. Right, thanks.

I asked, because in many esoteric traditions, esp. Tantric traditions, the Guru is (as in RSSB) considered the all-in-all, but in those traditions he is given this paramount position in the disciple’s spiritual life precisely because he actually hand-holds him/her through his entire spiritual journey, answering all his doubts and questions and guiding him personally. Which does not happen in RSSB. Which, let me hasten to add, I don’t mean as criticism : RSSB tradition is what it is, and those other Tantric traditions are what they are. Far be it for me to try to judge either.

And those two inner pointers per RSSB were cool : (a) entities to the left are fraudulent, those to the right are true ; and (b) the Mantra banishes the fraudulent entities. Those sound specific enough, and practical enough. Do you have personal experience of one or both of these inner points working? That is, were you ever visited by negative or imagined entities yourself, and did using these criteria help dispel them for you?

Incidentally, about your suggestion that I cross-check what you say with David Lane : I have no difficulty believing what you say and accepting it at face value (accepting it, that is, as your bona fide subjective experience, as you yourself perceived it), why wouldn’t I? And nor do I have any kind of hotline access to David Lane! I know of him and have read him, sure, and have greatly appreciated his research on Faqir Chand and the non-willed Inner Guru (non-willed by the Outer Guru), but he wouldn’t even know of my existence!

Hi, Osho Robbins. Thanks much for your response. But I’m afraid I find lots of holes in that kind of a reply. Without any offense intended to you, and with absolutely no other agenda but to discuss this rationally with you (after all why else are we here at all, commenting on this site?), I’d like to point out those holes (as they appear to me) to you.

(1) You did say, up there, that your realizations are borne of experience. And you did take umbrage at Penny’s insinuation that your realizations were bereft of actual experience. Why would you do that if experiences weren’t in any way important to the realization of Oneness? (This part of my comment appears a tad confrontational, I realize. I don’t mean it that way, let me assure you, I just want to discuss this with you. I’m not trying to arm-wrestle you, but I had to ask. If you were simply reacting to Penny’s less-than-friendly comment, well that’s fine, let’s just forget this part of it, and move on to the next two. If you’d meant it literally, then I’ll request you discuss it further.)

(2) Ramana Maharshi, for instance, arrived at his Oneness theme specifically based on his experiences (both spontaneously when he was a child, and later when meditating atop that hill of his, Arunachala). In his case, experience did lead to the realization to Oneness. (Of course, that may not be the only way. Is that what you’re saying, that there are other paths, an intellectual path perhaps, that don’t use experiences as stepping stones or guides?)

(3) If it’s simply a question of reasoning it through and coming to a conclusion, just “understanding” it : well, haven’t you said, back up there, that’s NOT what it is, not a conclusion, not an opinion? What you’ve just said to me in that last comment of yours, it does make sense (I’m not saying I’m joining the Advaita camp, but I certainly can’t find a logical flaw in the line you’re taking there, if one were to accept the axiom of One-Spirit). It does make sense, but logical reasoning and arriving at a conclusion by thinking through, that’s exactly what it is (or at least, what it looks like to me).

Sorry, Osho Robbins, perhaps I’m being dense, but I don’t understand! If it isn’t experience, if it isn’t intuition, and if it isn’t a reasoned-out conclusion either : then what *is* it, this realization of Oneness?

.

I don’t know, perhaps I’m not putting my question across properly. Let me see if I can’t put it differently. You can recall a time, surely, when you had not yet arrived at this realization about Oneness? Perhaps back during your RSSB Lecture days, or perhaps some time after you’d broken off from lecturing there but hadn’t yet arrived at the Oneness idea/realization. Think of your inner state, your state of mind at that time, will you, your thoughts and your overall mental state. In what way was that state of mind, what you thought then, different from what it is now? Can you analyze it, talk of it, the difference between then and now? What has changed? And what do you think led to that difference?

They do say “If you can talk about it, then it isn’t enlightenment!” -- but jokes apart, I’m just seeing if I can see my way to understanding what you’re saying here.

Appreciative Reader,
naturally you will find holes. It is inevitable because the holes are there.

It's like a polo (the mint) - without the hole it would not be a polo.

I will answer the best I can, however, it will raise more questions. It is unavoidable.

Appreciative Reader,:
“You did say, up there, that your realizations are borne of experience. And you did take umbrage at Penny’s insinuation that your realizations were bereft of actual experience. Why would you do that if experiences weren’t in any way important to the realization of Oneness?”

Perhaps (I don’t have the time to check to context above) I meant that I am not speaking from book-learning. So I may have used the word experience loosely, meaning that I am not simply writing from what I have heard and read – I have been through the journey. I have spent my whole life being lost and seeking, and finally it happened (but I didn’t do it).

Experience plays a part, of course. For example I went to various realized masters and they did their ‘thing’ (that’s what I like to call it because when you go to a master whatever he does is the process – there is no set technique).

This involved seriously confronting and challenging my cherished beliefs that I acquired over a lifetime. In the process – I began to let go of the false beliefs. This is of course a process and it is an experience. However – this (the process, the road, the means) is not enlightenment.

So I went through lots of experiences, as did Ramana or anyone else who may speak of enlightenment. However the enlightenment itself is never an experience – it is beyond experience. The experience leading up to it can be pinpointed.

It is not that it just happened by itself – without my seeking and without be doing anything to get it. One who is lost seeks.
However, the moment it happened – it was not my doing. It happened despite my doing.

Appreciative Reader:
“(2) Ramana Maharshi, for instance, arrived at his Oneness theme specifically based on his experiences (both spontaneously when he was a child, and later when meditating atop that hill of his, Arunachala). In his case, experience did lead to the realization to Oneness.”

I don’t know about Ramana – however enlightenment itself is not an experience, although some experience may trigger it.
Experience may lead to it – anything can lead to it. However the thing itself is not an experience.

No enlightened person will say it is an experience. What I mean is that it’s not like arriving at Sach Khand and having tea with Sat Purush. That would be an experience.

An experience involves two – (1) ME and (2) the person, things or whatever I experience, so it is dual in nature.

Hence enlightenment cannot be an experience as there is only one. Experience requires two.

Appreciative Reader:
(3) If it’s simply a question of reasoning it through and coming to a conclusion, just “understanding” it : well, haven’t you said, back up there, that’s NOT what it is, not a conclusion, not an opinion? What you’ve just said to me in that last comment of yours, it does make sense

It is not reasoning, however, if I am to speak, naturally I will use words, sentences and intellect. That is the means. Not the thing itself.

Just simply understanding the words is not enough.

In this video, Osho speaks of “agree/disagree” versus understanding / harmony

The latter triggers the realization. The former is a fight and by fighting it cannot happen. Hence every master has “INSIDERS” (those who are open even when they disagree) and “OUTSIDERS” (someone who has come to argue and seek confirmation of his own ideas)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ7KhWJu0vk

at 6:00 mins into the video he is explaining about the state of harmony.
Although he is using words and sentences – it is not about the intellect.

Some people will conclude from what I have said – that it is intellectual.
It is not. Intellect is the means, not the end. In fact the mind has to be dropped before it can happen.
But YOU cannot drop the mind – and there is no HOW.

appreciative reader wrote:
"Can you analyze it, talk of it, the difference between then and now? What has changed? And what do you think led to that difference?"

No, is the simple answer.

Of course I can talk, write and generally make a nuisance of myself, which is all I am doing. Just light entertainment. But only if you don’t take it too seriously, and you like holes.

Before enlightenment I used to go to the forest and chop wood.
After enlightenment I go to the forest and chop wood.

What else can I say?
nothing can be said.
and what is said will be mis-understood.

Osho on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMi0whFEA

Appreciative reader:
“They do say “If you can talk about it, then it isn’t enlightenment!”

It is not an experience – hence I cannot claim anything – because there is nobody there to make the claim. Or as Osho said “Enlightenment cannot be a decoration for your ego”

To Osho: "Ultimately,.....we are all God." That is a common Advaita mantra. But, meanwhile, back in the Wheel of 84, i.e. Charausi,....how long is " ultimately"? Is it a moment, day, week, month, year, decade, life, lives, etc. Etc. So, to me, "ultimately" is meaningless, at my stage. I feel blessed to have been graced a human body marked by The Father to be initiated by Charan Singh, and shared the technique to finally escape The Wheel of 84. That is no small blessing!! But, after I finally escape The Wheel of 84, will my "Ultimate" merging return "me" to my Original Divine Heritage, i.e. God? No, I am sure it won't, so why even waste any brain cells thinking anout, or imagining such nonsense? Osho, you sould return to your appreciation of being marked tor Initiation, and click the Delete Key of ONENESS. " Be Here Now" as Ram Das liked to say. Take the example of the Brother who recently posted as " Phil" on another thread, who said after being off the Path for years, has had Charan's Bulldozer Chain tightened. That is an interersting thread and personal story, from an RSSB Brother initiated by Charan , as most Exers here were. Reading thru the story and comments, I would think a few of the Exers who commented on the tread are surprised by his change of mind. You, Osho, should ask him the Chain of Events that has brought a him back to the Path, which you have rejected.

Appriciative Reader: you are so detailed, you make simple teachings complicated. Tantra and Sant Mat are not mutually exclusive. I think One Initiated gave you about as detailed an account as any one can, including me. Of course, I share my own experiences, and not other's from books, unless I quote from books. And of course, I have tested many entities, including the Mantra and witnessed them vaporize. They were Legion, i.e. Many, standing in line to torment, frighten me, test me, during my early Meditation years. I.e. First several years. Early 90s. But once they have been dealt with, and driven away, we are no longer bothered by them. Rarely, does any appear in my meditation, now. In the Bible, it is recorded in many places, that the Apostles had the Authority, ( and used it) , to cast out demons, in Jesus Name. Christian Preachers take this literally, and try to cast what they think are demons, out of other demon possessed people. But, that was all an Allegory, meaning, the NAME Apostles used, were the Mantra Jesus gave his Initiates to cast out their own demons during meditation. So, they did not use the actual Name of Jesus, but the Name he gave them, to test the entities.

Osho,

I crushed your Sant Mat 2.0 theory and thumped it into the bin. The readers here read it all and your theory stands exposed. But you are still sitting on your theory like a kid doesn't want to leave his candy. Your arguments have been thrashed into pieces by me and others readers here. You have failed to understand that Duality and Oneness do co-exist. You have failed to understand both past and present Sant Mat teachings.

May I ask you below questions now:
1. How many satsangs of the present Great One have you heard? Satsangs not Q&A.
2. Do you consider yourself a satsangi or an Exer?

Jeff,
You are writing complete nonsense again. You have not crushed anything. In fact, you have still not even answered the one question I have asked you many times now.

Before we continue this – can you answer the one question I have asked you? Or are you unable to answer? Because the answer you give will make you look a complete idiot?

You don’t even know how to have a reasonable debate. You have no experience of your own and just quote others like “others have seen…”. What have YOU seen? What is your experience? Nothing – just all hearsay!

"I crushed your Sant Mat 2.0 theory and thumped it into the bin. The readers here read it all and your theory stands exposed. " - Jeff

I am afraid, Jeff, you are seriously delusional. Crushed Sat Mat 2.0? Are you serious? You would have trouble crushing an ice cube.

And you are such an egotist. Like you have accomplished this great feat and crushed Sant Mat 2.0 single handedly. The only thing that has been crushed is your reputation and your ego.

It's clear to all the readers here that you are delusional and cannot even answer one question that I asked you so many times. Do yourself a favour and answer the question before you write again.


“You have failed to understand that Duality and ONENESS do co-exist” – Jeff

Again the statements you make are nonsense. You gave no context to the statement. ONENESS is the truth – it is ALWAYS. Duality is what we experience in THIS MOMENT. It appears to be real just as a dream appears to be real while it is happening.

The truth is that the dream is unreal (because it ends). The truth is Duality is unreal (because it ends).
Certainly duality appears to co-exist with oneness, in the sense that duality (everything we see and experience) appears to be real (exists) in this moment.

However, ONENESS is the reality and duality is the illusion (maya).

“You have failed to understand both past and present Sant Mat teachings.” - Jeff

What utter bullshit you continue to write. I have a new perspective based on realization. I understand the teachings very well. I have been in RSSB since I was a child. It was Mrs Wood who appointed me a national speaker. Obviously she did not do that because I failed to understand the teachings.
Just because I am pointing out that the teachings are different – does not mean that I do not understand the old and new teachings.

I am simply saying that the current master has added an element of the advaita teachings to the old teachings. Only an idiot would deny that because you can just go to any satsang of his and hear him making those statements.

If you are still unsure, then have the courage to ask him a question yourself. Or are you too afraid? And prefer to just write unfounded nonsense and make pointless unfounded arguments on here?

“May I ask you below questions now:
1. How many satsangs of the present Great One have you heard? Satsangs not Q&A.
2. Do you consider yourself a satsangi or an Exer?” - Jeff

1: More than you would imagine. Besides – anyone can hear his satsangs as often as they choose now because plenty of people have recorded them and put them on youtube. Both satsangs and Q&A. So it’s a bit of a pointless question.

2: I consider myself neither a satsangi nor an “exer” Of course I used to be a satsangi and I used to meditate and go to satsang every week and was even an approved national speaker. I am sure that qualifies me to at least have an understanding of the teachings.

I don’t consider myself an “exer” because I am not against RSSB. I have no bitterness against it. I have nothing against the current master. In fact, as I have pointed out in my videos, I like the new teachings. Jim also appears to think I have something against RSSB.

I am sorry if I don’t fit neatly into one of those categories for you – deal with it.
Just because I have pointed out that the current master has changed the traditional teachings – doesn’t mean that I don’t understand them!

I was going through some past postings here on church of the churchless

and came across this website

http://wayofmystics.webs.com/thepath.htm

some interesting artists impressions of the regions there.

Osho was a non-serious master - simply playing. It is very different from someone who is trying to give out certain teachings.

check this out as an example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHgNVRnkO88


To Osho: I apologize for indicating you are an Anti-RSSBer. Other than your Oneness/Duality Rhetoric that is very confusing to Seekers who may be marked for Gurinder Singh, and have not yet decided if he is a Oneness Advaita Teacher, or a Sant Mat Master , over seeing RSSB under the direction of his Master, Charan Singh, confuses Seekers, and challenges Charan Initiates who still retain the Old School Duality Teaching of Master Charan that, even after an Initiate is fortunate enough to have accessed Sach Khand, i.e., Sat Nam, as soul, and has shed his/her body/mind, those cleansed souls still recognise each other there, so surely indicates they are still Individual souls in the Oneness of the ONE.

Seekers who are under conviction that Sant Mat Philosophy is the Pure Path to Salvation and have decided they want to be initiated in to the Path described by Dr. Julian Johnson, after reading his Book, " The Path of The Masters", as I once did, very well could avoid seeking Initiation from Gurinder Singh in the RSSB , ( which I believe to be the present purest example of Sant Mat on earth ) , and avoid him, because you have convinced them he is a Vedanta Advaita Teacher. Then, they would waste years of time, like both you and I did, by going to a less authorized Master to seek initiation by.

I think you have a pure heart, Osho, and most likely forgot more about Old time Sant Mat, than I will ever know in this life. You are fortunate, as an Indian knowing the language, can hear and read Gurinder Singh's Talks given in Hindi, first hand, unlike we Westerners who have to rely on 2nd hand translations.

But, I have other Corroborations to seal my Faith in the Sant Mat that I subscribe to. ( which you don't have )

So, let us not become enemies who are on the same Path , but have ventured on to different side trails. Let us remain Brothers of The One,........." Ultimately." 😇😍

Jim Sutherland wrote:
“So, let us not become enemies who are on the same Path , but have ventured on to different side trails. Let us remain Brothers of The One,.........”

I am not your enemy, and I have no enmity towards anyone here – no matter which side of the fence they are on.

As for anyone avoiding RSSB because of my comments – that is not likely. You really think that what is destined to happen can be changed by my comments?

I am not saying that Gurinder is now a Vedanta or Advaita teacher. He clearly is not. I am simply pointing out that He gives considerable weight to the ONENESS view. More than previous and other existing sant mat teachers.

This is quite obvious, and is helpful for the seeker to see. Certainly it is not grounds to stop seeking initiation if someone is so inclined.

I am not out to convince anyone to leave or stay. It is just that my path to truth was different. However, I am not here to convince anyone else.

Those who are marked souls for Gurinder; you really think I can unmark them just by writing a few words on my keyboard?

Thanks, Osho Robbins, for those thoughtful responses. Taking all of what you said at face value, I do get a vague half-sense of what you’re driving at (unless that’s simply my own subconscious trying to ensure that I get to carry some kind of “meaning” out of this conversation, no matter what!), although, like you say, holes do still remain in my understanding, wide ones.

Two instances, two people, come to mind, on reading what you wrote (again, working on the assumption that I’m not wrong to take what you say at face value). The first, of course, is Jiddu Krishnamoorty. I’ve often wondered what he meant by the choiceless-awareness refrain of his. Is it merely a dropping of “conditionings” (like you yourself say, more than once), simply a dropping away of ideas of god, and self, and perhaps, along with our good pastor Brian, of free will as well? :-) If that’s all it is, then aren’t we making too much of a simple (albeit very important) thing, convoluting something easily enough expressed? The second instance I’m thinking of is of Ananda, who was all overcome with grief at Buddha’s passing away, and with despair because he still hadn’t ‘got it’, despite his long years with his cousin and master. They tie him up, or lock him up, and keep him starving, or something weird like that (I forget the details), and at that nadir of his life, he suddenly ‘gets it’, and walks through the walls and floats out, finally attained to arahant-hood. Obviously a fictitious magical story, but the metaphor, the meaning aimed at within the parable, is rather touching.

I couldn’t watch those links you gave me, since watching video links is a bit of an issue at my end here. The bit about the agree/disagree-“outsiders” and the agreement-per-se-isn’t-relevant-“insiders” (that you talk of) made sense, though. I’ve read some stuff of Osho’s myself (as who hasn’t ?!), and been impressed by the man’s depth and range (as well as his inconsistency, which he himself has said -- perhaps craftily or perhaps very wisely, I don’t know which -- is deliberate) and visited the Poona ashram/resort twice (although only short visits, without really immersing myself in the experience there).

I’ve enjoyed our conversation, and will be happy to read anything else you may wish to say about this, but I’m sensing that we may be nearing the limits of what a conversation can convey (in this context, and at this time), so I shan’t try to explore any further “holes”. Although one last question I think I will still have to ask :

What, ultimately, do you think is the point, the *use* if you will, of all this seeking and finding and not-finding? In what concrete way is the enlightened person any better off than one who isn’t, well, enlightened? Do you subscribe to the whole rebirth-reincarnation narrative, and believe this shows you a way out, is that it? If your answer is simply peace of mind, then that’s a good answer, but there are scores of other ways to attain to it. But I won’t try to pre-empt your answer any more, and request you to talk about it in your own way, without any further comment from me.

Thanks for that comprehensive answer, Jim. That’s fascinating, your John-Bunyan-ish accounts of your internal struggles with those entities, which you say you’ve overcome with the aid of the Mantra.

You’re right, perhaps, when you say I am over-thinking this, I don’t know. But then most things, right from a child learning to swim or to ride a bicycle, right through to actual rocket science to Advaita to Sant Mat, are simple once you know them (or, to look at this differently, buy into them) already, but take a great deal of effort to try to understand when you are still on the outside.

You’re right, too, that Tantra and Sant Mat don’t seem to be mutually experience, not wholly. Although there definitely are many points of divergence, both in the theory/theology and in the specifics of the practice. On specific “positive” that I find in RSSB is that, unlike Tantrism, it is relatively free of ritual. It could simply be a function of their far older provenance, but Tantric schools are all chock full of all kinds of rituals!

Although disinterested and impersonal, my interest in all this isn’t wholly idle or academic. I too do indulge a bit in this meditation business, across a few traditions, but without really buying into any of their respective dogmas. I don’t have your unwavering faith (and, it must be said, I haven’t had your apparent success either at attaining the fruits of meditation). Understanding what “all this” is all about, by looking at how others do it : I think it makes sense to try to do that. These conversations are fun and enlightening, but can go on in an endless loop! So if you’ll allow me, one last final question and comment from me to you?

One thing that I find curious about Sant Mat is the sheer number of factions they have. Each faction has it’s own GIHF. You obviously believe that Babaji Gurinder Singh is the true GIHF. Do you have any thoughts about the other GIHFs within Sant Mat? Do you think they’re charlatans, or at least seriously deluded, or what? How is it that other Gurus of other Sant Mat traditions also sometimes seem to project this Inner Guru? (I know what David Lane would say to this, and also what Brian would say to this : but theirs is the skeptic’s / unbeliever’s / disillusioned point of view : can you tell me what you yourself think about this?

One Inititated, thanks for your comment. I just noticed it as I was about to log out from here. The nice formatting drew my attention : You seem to have posted this quite a while back, I can't imagine how I missed it!

I have to rush off now, I'm going to be traveling actually : and your careful and detailed comment deserves far more attention than I can give it just now. I'm looking forward to going through it later on.

Meanwhile, thanks much for taking the trouble to respond!

Dear All,

I was initiated by Baba Ji in the mid 90s and I can tell you by personal inner experience that He is a True Master. He appeared to me in His radiant form and I was able to fly the blue skies with Him at a supersonic speed, until huge mass of light appeared which I could not bear, thereby losing concentration I came out of my state. Master appeared so radiant as if giving light to the entire creation. It was not a dream as I was more awake than ever.

I don't know if there are any other Perfect Masters on this planet, but He surely is One. Upon seeing His glory within, there is no scope of any doubt!

I have been a reader on this site but thought my post maybe of some worth to curious minds here.

Wishing love, light and happiness!

Osho,
Let me ask you a straight forward question. Based upon your observation of the "evolution" in GSD's "teachings" / "controversial (sometimes contradicting) statements", what do you think of him - is he genuine or is he fake?

Appreciative Reader writes:
"Taking all of what you said at face value, I do get a vague half-sense of what you’re driving at"
A vague sense is the best you can hope for.
because I am not driving at anything.
No answer can ever satisfy.
In zen it is said "All teachings are false - even true ones"
and "only those teachings have value that lead you to truth"

Appreciative Reader:
"although, like you say, holes do still remain in my understanding, wide ones."

It is very easy to find holes, because they are everywhere. Those who seek truth find it within the holes. Truth cannot be said - only danced around.

The wise man speaks from his wisdom. The seeker jumps on that wisdom and reduces it to knowledge (a conclusion) and misses the wisdom.

Appreciative Reader:
“What, ultimately, do you think is the point, the *use* if you will, of all this seeking and finding and not-finding?”
You ask very good questions. There is no point. It is the conditioned mind which creates and seeks meaning. There is no meaning except the meaning you create.

This is the trap. Seeking benefit. It is the “I” which seeks because it is always hungry.

First it wants things of the world: money, things, relationships, recognition.
Then when these don’t satisfy it searches for a spiritual answer.

But the greed remains the same. Now it wants Powers, Mukti, Sach Khand, Peace, mastery over emotions etc.

Nothing has changed – still the same greed.

Enlightenment is the final end of all seeking – because there is nothing to seek. Now you become just ordinary. No longer seeking to be special. Not trying the be a Christ or a Buddha – you are now simply yourself.

Avi asks:
“Based upon your observation of the "evolution" in GSD's "teachings" / "controversial (sometimes contradicting) statements", what do you think of him - is he genuine or is he fake?”

I am impressed by him. I enjoy the conversations I have had with him on the microphone. I mean it beats the hell out of the normal sant mat answer to just meditate and get to Sach Khand.

He has added a new slant and I find it refreshing.

Of course, as some readers have pointed out here – the previous masters have also said the same thing.
However, there is a big difference. The difference is the emphasis.

Let me explain.

When I used to listen to the local satsangs as a child, they were very different from now. The speakers would refer to the regions and the inner journey. There would be a pathi who recites the gurbani. The speaker would say “This is a reference to the second region” or something similar and describe the journey of the soul.

Now this does not happen. Why? Because Gurinder has made it clear that the regions are not literal. The speakers do not talk to regions anymore – but more of realization.

How could I call Gurinder a fake when he is changing the teachings to reflect a higher understanding?

A fake would just carry on and not upset the cart.
I don’t think the word ‘fake’ is appropriate.
Brian did a posting about the four ‘L’s
Lord, Liar, Legend, and Loyalist.

As far as Charan Singh is concerned – I have a different take on it.
He DID make it clear – and many times, that he was just an ordinary man.
He first tried to run away. He had a book printed before he left the physical body to make it clear that he was shocked when he got the gaddi.

He was a loyalist. He did his duty to the best of his ability.
He could hardly just walk away because he had a duty to his own guru. He make it clear that he had no special powers.

I don’t see Gurinder claiming any powers. He is giving out the teachings and tells people not to put him on a pedestal.
Not exactly how a ‘fake’ would behave.

And what reason is there for anyone to be bitter?

If they followed the path - it was out of choice.

I followed it for most of my life - I am not bitter.

I am grateful because it was a great foundation and it was an essential part of my journey.

App. Reader asks Jim to answer, or,......Spin"One thing that I find curious about Sant Mat is the sheer number of factions they have. Each faction has it’s own GIHF. You obviously believe that Babaji Gurinder Singh is the true GIHF. Do you have any thoughts about the other GIHFs within Sant Mat? Do you think they’re charlatans, or at least seriously deluded, or what? How is it that other Gurus of other Sant Mat traditions also sometimes seem to project this Inner Guru? (I know what David Lane would say to this, and also what Brian would say to this : but theirs is the skeptic’s / unbeliever’s / disillusioned point of view : can you tell me what you yourself think about this?"

Jim tries to answer with out Spinning: These are difficult questions to answer. If I , or any one else could PROVE that GSD was GIHF, then I would go on TV and all the News Media, and Proclaim, " The Good News" i.e. The Gospel of Salvation , that " Who so ever believes in Him, will be saved." That's what the Apostles of Jesus did. But, since there are no outer miracles to observe, then, no Seeker can come to ANY Master unless The Father draws him/her, to that particular Master. Jesus told his Desciples the same. So, FAITH is initially required to approach ANY man, considered by his followers to be GIHF.

So, first, Faith in the Path, which includes the Philosophy/Theology of Sant Mat , as compared to all other Religions and Philosophies. And there are plenty of those. For me, I started as a Catholic, offered to the god of my mother, as a baby, sprinkled, or Baptized by a Priest in the Catholic Church. Then, brought up as a Catholic, having First Communion, Confirmation, and even became an Altar Boy from age 11-16. I even considered becoming a Priest,.... until my male hormones took my body hostage, and I discovered the opposite sex!

Then, I lost interest completely, in religeon, joined the Air Force , married, and my Fate was sealed! Once married, a job is required, children are born, all must be supported, and my life or choices were survival choices, not desired choices. Competed in the Jungle world, and lived a normal life until age 35, when I had what Christians call a " Born Again Experience. " I became interested in God and religeon again, quit drinking Alcohol, using tobacco, and have never touched with since. The rest of my history is on my blog.

I had to do my own search for a Living Master the same as all Seekers do, who first, become convinced by Faith, that Sant Mat is the Camino Real to Salvation. I have posted here, how I came to Charan Singh, and how he came to me. My Faith in him, as my GIHF has been established. So, I can not prove that to any one else, let alone, prove that Gurinder Singh is now, GIHF to other seekers.

I don't think the other Sant Mat Masters think they are Charlatans. They are no different than I am. They have discovered God, as they understand God, and feel compelled to share what they think is real, with other Seekers who are still seeking , but have not yet found what they are searching for. For me, I do what I do, because I feel like I found Gold in my yard, and can't dig it up fast enough to share with my friends! I am not a Charleton. I have never taken a Dime from any Seeker. Follow the money. You will know the Charletons from the genuine Masters by following the money!

But, until a Seeker meets the Master that initiated him/her inside, in the Radiant Form, not just as a glimpse of a face after concentrating on a Photo or TV Screen for hours, then, I don't think complete Faith will be sealed by any Disciple until that occurs. Until then, the faith is akways shaky, on the fence, so to speak, with the seekers always looking for other Masters, depending on credibility of that Master and his followers. So, in summary, I really don't think the search ever ends, until the Desciple has an experience of the Radiant form, inside. If desciples of other Masters are seeing their Radiant Forms inside, then, I would think, there must be more than one Master at a time in human form. So, until a seeker finds one, Faith is required, along with the Testimony of the Masters following him. If no one is seeing the Radiant Form, and is following the Path and the Vows, then either they are following a Charleton, or are Reprobates not marked to return Home this life, and must have more Karma to balance, too much for any Master to accept.

That's the best I can think of, or comes to mind presently. Caveat Emptore.


Augustine,
Last year in a Q&A session in Spain, Babaji in response to questions answered that there are no Perfect Masters and further he was not a Master, albeit he was a simple teacher assigned with this job for which he never applied for.
Maybe his teachings are not the same for all. Of course his discourses are totally different in India and in the West.
Good Luck to all.

Augustine wrote:
"Last year in a Q&A session in Spain, Babaji in response to questions answered that there are no Perfect Masters and further he was not a Master, albeit he was a simple teacher assigned with this job for which he never applied for."

A charlatan would not make such a statement. I mean there are people on this site that make more claims than Gurinder.

If anyone chooses to follow the path - they have freely made that choice. He is playing his part and he even says "I am not coming at the time of death."

That is not a good marketing move since it's one of the major benefits of being a RSSB follower. Only an honest person would make that statement. It does not benefit him.

Most other sant mat masters would not dream of saying they are not a perfect master and that they are not coming at the time of death.


Tremendous statement Mr Robbins

For sure He has many serendipities .

He is The Beloved of the SatGuru Charan Singh Ji Maharaji, . . for sure too

And HE doen"t come because HE is there already :-) - :-)

777

"" But YOU cannot drop the mind – and there is no HOW. ""

Any puber know how to drop . . . . by LOVE

So, the question is : " How to obtain the Crush "
not by reasoning
certainly by :

Wow Augustine ( like "Confessiones, . . Thou being my helper ") :

"until huge mass of light appeared which I could not bear, thereby losing concentration I came out of my state. Master appeared so radiant as if giving light to the entire creation."
really worth googling from Saint Auggustinus"

So . .
I liked Augustine's story a lot
It generates mega, giga, tera useful Love

remember the man who stayed at the door when a Master
stayed a whole night with that prostitute the whole night and all disciples were gone
"I have no place to go" . . . he said

Clarification
" the double "the whole night" in my last comment is certainly Freudian "


777

“And HE doen"t come because HE is there already “ -777

Naturally the ONE is everywhere and at all times, as it is beyond time and space. However, the disciple is seeking the radiant form of the master. If he has meditated and sees the radiant form every day – he will not go to the mic to ask if the radiant form will come at death (as he sees it already every day).

If the disciples has never seen the radiant form or only occasionally (which is by far the majority of disciples) he is asking Gurinder Singh to confirm that the radiant form will come at death. The disciple is seeking re-assurance so he can carry on with his life in the assurance that the afterlife is taken care of.

Gurinder does not give that re-assurance.

Some take this to mean that the radiant form is definitely coming – and Gurinder is lying because he wants us to mediate. That also is not the case.
Gurinder has said many times that He cannot come since there is only the ONE.

He further elaborates that THE ONE cannot come and go, and you have to realise the ONE, you have to realise that the ONE is all there is, and there is no separate soul.

To say He is already there is to go directly against what Gurinder Singh says.

He could also say “Don’t worry guys, the radiant form is with you always and will become visible at death and take your soul on the inner journey.”

But He doesn’t.

That would make His life easier if He said that and stop the barrage of questions.

Many people also ask for grace.
He could easily say “Don’t worry, it’s all taken care of. As long as you have faith in me, I will come at death. You just try your best to meditate and leave the rest to me.”

But he doesn’t make those statements.

Instead he tells the disciples what they DON’T want to hear. That single act makes him stand out as authentic. He cares about the truth, and therefore cannot be a “fake”.

The disciples continue to manipulate what he says to make it fit their comfortable beliefs. That is plain and clear just by the fact that many disciples think I am making all this up despite the huge amount of evidence.

Many like Jeff even think I am giving out my own teachings and I have some hidden agenda and want people to follow me.

I mean – perhaps I didn’t hear him right once or twice. But he says it pretty much every satsang. And he says it to others – not just me. And others have heard it too.

That is why someone asked him specifically “Please don’t break our heart by saying you are not coming at the time of death.”
Why would that question even arise if He never made that statement in the first place?

Actually it is not the disciple’s heart he is breaking – he is taking him out of his comfort zone.

I mean it’s a major problem for most disciples. They have lived for many years with the comfortable idea that the master comes at death and takes the soul. Now if the master says “No, you are mistaken” excuse my French – they are screwed.

So what the disciples do is DENY he ever said it. When that door closes, they find another reason like Jeff stated “He means that He is not coming in his physical body”

Well of course He is not coming in His physical body. That would be impossible. That is why I asked Jeff several times to answer the question, which was “How can He possibly be clarifying something that is just too obvious. He is not an idiot.”

Obviously Jeff must think He is an idiot if he really thinks that is what Gurinder Singh was doing (just clarifying that He is not coming physically).

More likely Jeff just wrote that without thinking clearly which is why he doesn’t answer the question.

Gurinder is taking the disciples out of their comfort zone. And they don’t like it, one bit.

They love their comfort – as we all do.

But like one of my spiritual masters once said to me “Do you want comfort – or do you want Truth?”

Most want comfort. It is much easier to handle than the truth.

There is another objection to Gurinder Singh’s statement that the master does not come at death. Many disciples know of people who at death claimed that the Master has come.
How can this be the case, when He is saying “I am not coming?”

They conclude He must be lying.

But there is another explanation.

Gurinder said in response to my question, that NIRGUN is the goal, the truth. SARGUN is the means.

All forms, including the radiant form is SARGUN (the means). So while you might see the radiant form - it is YOU who is creating it. It is not really there.

Of course the disciple will say “I know it’s real”
Or “It remains even when I say simran”

However it is SARGUN – and everything in sargun is unreal.
That includes anything that you can see, with these eyes or inner eyes.

All forms are sargun including the Radiant form.

Gurinder has said many times that the ultimate is to realise the ONE.

Everything else is just the means.

So Radiant forms, regions, inner visions, whatever you might have achieved – is all maya – is all sargun, by definition.

It doesn’t matter if it took you years to attain.
It doesn't matter that you saw this while awake not asleep.
It doesn’t matter if you claim it is real.

You yourself are unreal and part of maya. Everthing that is born and dies is maya and sargun.

So if you are unreal, how can your claim be real?

And if you drop the “I” (which is unreal) then who is left to make the claim?

Someone may say I am just playing with words.

But I am not.
Or if I am – when aren’t we all?

Words can only point.
In Zen it is said “The Master is a finger pointing to the moon”

And you grab the finger.

And you miss the moon.

You hold onto the words and the concepts.
And you miss the REAL (the ONE).
Besides the ONE – all is unreal.

The SARGUN path is your play thing until you realize the ONE.
It is light entertainment for the mind.

Gurinder Singh’s answer made this clear.

Seeing the radiant form, having inner visions, flying around in your astral body, exploring astral and higher regions, getting to Sach Khand;
I understand that it's exciting stuff - but it is just the means.

All this is the MEANS not the end, according to Gurinder Singh.
The END according to Him is the ONE – realization of the ONE.

If this is incorrect – then ASK HIM!

Instead of asking him for grace, ask him for the truth!

No point in arguing with me – ask the source directly.
And if HE agrees with what I just wrote, what’s your next step?

To many earlier comments where Babaji said "I am not the perfect master. There are no perfect masters"

When Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, after 17 years of hardship in finding the perfect master, finally reached at the feet of Soami Ji Maharaj and said "I am here to meet the perfect master and I have heard about your grandeur" to this Soami Ji replied: "I am sorry to disappoint you, but no perfect master is here... talking about me ? I am the servant of the saints"
Later HE replied: "The Saint Nanak never called himself the perfect master and I am only HIS servant"
And later, Jaimal Singh Ji said: "Let me be a servant to the servants of the saints"

For a seeker of truth, it's not hard to interpret that servant of the servants of the saints, servant of the saints and saints are all just synonymous here and only a greatest representation of how humble the true saints the perfect masters are in actuality.


777

My dear loving elder brother.
Very true and what a beautiful incident to remember and learn from.
The Master was Hazrat Nizamuddin and the disciple was Amir Khusro.
Amir Khusro's poems are amongst the top spiritual poetry specially in India.


Osho Robbins

I think you have greatly and rightly emphasized upon all the Sargun is means (only means) and the reality is realizing the One.
Also you just mentioned "I understand that it's exciting stuff - but it is just the means."
So when you admit and accept that this all is exciting stuff, then why to ignore all this exciting stuff ?
Why not enjoy this excitement of meeting the Radiant Form of Master,
going through all the journey of inner realms and reaching the Sach Khand.
As being said, below Sach Khand, everything is perishable... but at least above the Physical and below the Sach Khand, everything is so exciting, why can't we also enjoy the journey also by keeping our focus on reaching to the One ?

Just like visiting the City of Simla (in Himachal Pradesh, India), the journey of reaching Simla is as beautiful as the Simla City. And I think every single person who visits Simla equally enjoys the beauty of the journey as well.

I have seen no single person who says your focus should only be on the final destination, although that is correct, but that to me somehow sounds a little disrespecting for the Master's Physical and Radiant Form.
And I should not end this without mentioning that it's correct everything is perishable below Sach Khand excluding: Naam, Master & Soul.
And if Master and Soul are also made up of Naam, they are already one, but in unrealized form. And it's a sheer joy that after millions of years of hardship, finally the Soul is observing it's unity with the Master and the Naam because of the selfless act and kindness of the Master.

With this analysis, the Master really deserves much much much more respect and honor in the very Physical plane as well.

Osho, you mentioned, "Realization of the ONE."

-- Is this Realization rooted in the workings of the Mind or brain? It takes the Mind to create the word, Realization. Outside the brain and workings of the mind, how would one know one has Realization?

To the Oneness Devotees, I believe I present a much more reasonable, and believable view of dealing with what we are presently doing ( living ) than imagining we are not here, living as individuals experiencing Duality.
Eat, Drink, and Make Merry, for Tomorrow We May Die Lost For Ever!
Atheists argue that they are able to live moral, productive lives with out Faith in survival of consciousness after death of their bodies in present lives.

Christians, believe that they are transferred to Heaven by Faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross 2000 plus years ago. ( Where ever Heaven is, remains vague. ) They believe those with out faith in what Jesus did for them suffer in Hell,.....where ever Hell is.

Most Eastern Religions teach that individual souls Reincarnate or Transmigrate to other physical bodies after death of present bodies, based on Karma created from present and past lives, until all Karmic actions are exhausted, by various methods too complicated to describe in this Article. But the final Goal is to return to the One Creator of all life.

Krishna Consciousness Teachers do not subscribe to the "Oneness" teaching of Advaitists that Individually of souls are ever completely lost or absorbed in to the Whole. ( of which I also agree, along with the Krishna Folk and Spiritists)

"
Advaita (Oneness)

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Reading Complexity:
Dvaita means "dual,” and advaita means "nondual." The material world is a world of dualities—heat and cold, happiness and distress, up and down, black and white. According to the Vedic literature, however, theAbsolute Truth is free from all such material dualities. It is called advaita.
Some philosophers hold the view that because the Absolute is free from dualities, it must be totally impersonal and devoid of qualities. According to this view, known as Advaita Vedanta, in the Absolute there can be no desires, thoughts, or perceptions, no sense of personal identity, no forms, qualities, or activity, but only undifferentiated spiritual oneness. This being so, whatever we now perceive is illusory.
But this view raises a question which Advaita Vedantists can't answer, "If nothing really exists but one undifferentiated Absolute Truth, where does the illusion of variety come from? How can illusion exist (or even appear to exist)? And if truth and illusion both exist, how can there be oneness?"
Read More
Our view is that the Absolute Truth manifests itself in unlimited diversity. The Absolute is void of material characteristics, but that doesn't mean that it has no characteristics at all.
The Absolute Truth is understood to have a multitude of energies. But because the Absolute is spiritual, these energies are ultimately spiritual, too. In this way, there is oneness between the energies and their source. The varieties we perceive are not illusions; they are energies of the Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, Krishna.
Our vision may also be enlightened by truth or bewildered by illusion, according to our own desires. This, too, is made possible by Krishna, through His energies. As parts of Krishna, we are naturally meant to serve Krishna, and when we do so we are in perfect oneness with the Absolute Truth. But when we separate ourselves from Krishna we plunge ourselves into illusion and duality. We attain liberation from illusion and duality by surrendering to Krishna, accepting Him as advaita, "one without a second."

As every aging human contemplating death of their present bodies, they all eventfully must:

Choose between three theoretic alternatives: Annihilation, Absorption, or the individuality of the soul before and after death. It is to this last belief that we are led by reason; and it is this belief that has constituted the basis of all religions in all the ages of the world.

I choose to believe in the Combination of Allan Kardec's Spiritist Philosophy and Sant Mat, or what s called "The Path of The Masters."
The Following is taken from Allan Kardec's Spiritist book, Heaven and Hell, and offers very reasonable arguments regarding survival of individual Personalities.

"1. It is certain that we live, think, and act; it is no less certain that we shall die. But, on quitting the earth, whither shall we go? What will become of us? Shall we be better off, or shall we be worse off? Shall we continue to exist, or shall we cease to exist? “To be, or not to be,” is the alternative presented to us; it will be for always, or not at all; it will be everything, or nothing; we shall live on eternally, or we shall cease to live, once and forever. The alternative is well worth the consideration.
Every one feels the need of living, of loving, of being happy. Announce, to one who believes himself to be at the point of death, that his life is to be prolonged, that the hour of death is delayed—announce to him, moreover, that he is going to be happier than he has ever been—and his heart will beat high with joy and hope. But to what end does the human heart thus instinctively aspire after happiness, if a breath suffices to scatter its aspirations?

Can anything be more agonizing that the idea that we are doomed to utter and absolute destruction, that our dearest affections, our intelligence, our knowledge so laboriously acquired, are all to be dissolved, thrown away, and lost forever? Why should we strive to become wiser or better? Why should we lay any restraint on our passions? Why should we weary ourselves with effort and study, if our exertions are to bear no fruit? If, erelong, perhaps tomorrow, all that we have done is to be of no further use to us? Were such really our doom, the lot of mankind would be a thousand times worse than that of the brutes; for the brute lives thoroughly in the present, in the gratification of its bodily appetites, with no torturing anxiety, no tormenting aspiration, to impair its enjoyment of the passing hour. But a secret and invincible intuition tells us that such cannot be our destiny.

2. The belief in annihilation necessarily leads a man to concentrate all his thoughts on his present life; for what, in fact, could be more illogical than to trouble ourselves about a future which we do not believe will have any existence? And as he whose attention is thus exclusively directed to his present life naturally places his own interest above that of others, this belief is the most powerful stimulant to selfishness, and he who holds it is perfectly consistent with himself in saying: “Let us get the greatest possible amount of enjoyment out of this world while we are in it; let us secure all the pleasures which the present can offer, seeing that, after death, everything will be over with us; and let us hasten to make sure of our own enjoyment, for we know not how long our life may last.” Such as one is, moreover, equally consistent in arriving at this further conclusion—most dangerous to the well being of society—“Let us make sure of our enjoyment, no matter by what means; let our motto be: ‘Each for himself;’ the good things of life are the prize of the most adroit.”

If some few are restrained, by respect for public opinion, from carrying out this program to its full extent, what restraint is there for those who stand in no such awe of their neighbors? Who regard human law as a tyranny that is exercised only over those who are sufficiently wanting in cleverness to bring themselves within its reach, and who consequently apply all their ingenuity to evading alike its requirements and its penalties? If any doctrine merits the qualifications of pernicious and anti-social, it is assuredly that of annihilation, because it destroys the sentiments of solidarity and fraternity, sole basis of the social relations.

3. Let us suppose an entire nation to have acquired, in some way or other, the certainty that, at the end of a week, a month, or a year, it will be utterly destroyed, that not a single individual of its people will be left alive, that they will all be utterly annihilated, and that not a trace of their existence will remain; what, in such a case, would be the line of conduct adopted, by the people thus doomed to a certain and foreseen destruction, during the short time which they would still have to exist? Would they labor for their moral improvement, or for their instruction? Would they continue to work for their living? Would they scrupulously respect the rights, the property, and the life, of their neighbors? Would they submit to the laws of their country, or to any ascendancy, even to that parental authority, the most legitimate of all? Would they recognize the existence of any duty? Assuredly not. Well, —the social ruin which we have imagined, by the way of illustration, as overtaking an entire nation, is being effected, individually, from day to day, by the doctrine of annihilation. If the practical consequences of this doctrine are not so disastrous to society as they might be, it is because, in the first place, there is, among the greater number of those whose vanity is flattered by the title of “free-thinker,” more of braggadocio than of absolute unbelief, more doubt than conviction, and more dread of annihilation than they care to show; and, in the second place, because those who really believe in annihilation are a very small minority, and are consequently influenced, in spite of themselves, by the contrary opinion, and held in check by the resistant forces of society and of the State: but, should absolute disbelief in a future existence ever be arrived at by the majority of mankind, the dissolution of society would necessarily follow. The propagation of the doctrine of annihilation would lead, inevitably, to this result.
But whatever may be the consequences of the doctrine of annihilation, if that doctrine were true, it would have to be accepted; for, if annihilation were our destiny, neither opposing systems of philosophy, nor the moral and social ills that would result from our knowledge that such a destiny was awaiting us, could prevent our being annihilated. And it is useless to attempt to disguise from ourselves that skepticism, doubt, indifference, are gaining ground every day, notwithstanding the efforts of the various religious bodies to the contrary. But if the religious systems of the day are powerless against skepticism, it is because they lack the weapons necessary for combating the enemy; so that, if their teaching were allowed to remain in a state of immobility, they would, erelong, be inevitably worsted in the struggle. What is lacking to those systems—in this age of positivism, when men demand to understand before believing—is the confirmation of their doctrines by facts and by their concordance with the discoveries of Positive Science. If theoretic systems say white where facts say black, we must choose between an enlightened appreciation of evidence and a blind acceptance of arbitrary statements.

4. It is in this state of things that the phenomena of Spiritism are spontaneously developed in the order of Providence, and oppose a barrier against the invasion of skepticism, not only by argument, or by the prospect of the dangers which it reveals, but also by the production of physical facts which render the existence of the soul, and the reality of a future life, both palpable and visible.
Each human being is, undoubtedly, free to believe anything, or to believe nothing; but those who employ the ascendancy of their knowledge and position in propagating, among the masses, and especially among the rising generation, the negation of a future life, are sowing broadcast the seeds of social confusion and dissolution, and are incurring a heavy responsibility by doing so.

5. There is another doctrine that repudiates the qualification of “Materialist,” because it admits the existence of a principle distinct from matter; we allude to that which asserts that each individual soul is to be absorbed in the Universal Whole. According to this doctrine, each human being assimilates, at birth, a particle of this principle, which constitutes his soul and gives him life, intelligence and sentiment. At death, this soul returns to the common source, and is merged in infinity as a drop of water is merged in the ocean.
This doctrine is, undoubtedly, an advance upon that of pure and simple Materialism, inasmuch as it admits something more than matter; but its consequences are precisely the same. Whether a man, after death, is dissolved into nothingness, or plunged into a general reservoir, is all One, as far as he himself is concerned; ..................
I prefer to be compared as a grain of sand returning to the Beach or Desert, retaining my individuality and accumulated Personality.
A current Sant Mat Guru, Dr. Ishwar Puri, if correct, about our Astral Body living 1-3 thousand years, depending on Karma, and our Causal body living another million years or more, then to me, Soul growth after transition from the physical body most likely happens on other less dense, higher Spiritual planets than Earth, and if we do have to reincarnate, it will be on higher Spiritual Planets as taught by Krishna in The Bhagavad Gita. It all lines up perfectly. You can have your individuality, and KEEP it, not loosing all the positive things and knowledge you have done in this life and past lives.

Live Life and enjoy it to the fullest now, but do consider all life has an expiration date!

Until we meet again, I remain,
Eternal Flame

“Is this Realization rooted in the workings of the Mind or brain? It takes the Mind to create the word, Realization. Outside the brain and workings of the mind, how would one know one has Realization?” - Roger

The mind is part of maya / illusion and time/space.

Everything we experience here is through the mind.
Realization is beyond the mind.

If I realize something here – that realization is within the mind. For example I might say to someone “I did not realize what you meant – I now understand”

In that sense – the word realization is used synonymously with ‘understanding’.

So it kind of means a deeper understanding.

However, realisation of the ONE is different. It is not an intellectual understanding, which is what most people think it is. Hence the question.

Sure, words are used as the means – but the thing itself (except it’s not a thing either), has no relationship to the mind or brain.

HOW would one know?
Good question. I cannot give you an answer.

It’s not even a knowing. Knowing requires a knower and there is no knower and no known.

So what the fuck is it?
I cannot say.

The very attempt to explain is ridiculous. How can that which is beyond mind, beyond time, beyond concepts, beyond words, be explained in words.

This is the real reason it is said that one who knows will not say. It’s not so much that he will not say, but he cannot say.

And even if he does say – it will just be more words. Truth cannot be said.
So in the light of what I have just written

Listen to this video of Osho describing why it cannot be understood – only mis-understood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMi0whFEA&t=447s


Thanks OSHO,

"However, realization of the ONE is different. It is not an intellectual understanding, which is what most people think it is. Hence the question."
----If it is different, then it is dualistic. To say it is different, then one has come to some kind of Mind based understanding.

"It’s not even a knowing. Knowing requires a knower and there is no knower and no known."
----One's Mind reasoned that, "It's not even a knowing."

"So what the fuck is it? I cannot say."
----True, one can not say, however the dropped F-bomb was well reasoned. Ha Ha.......

"Sure, words are used as the means – but the thing itself (except it’s not a thing either), has no relationship to the mind or brain."
----the "thing itself" term was created in one's mind. Also, the non-thing term.

"The very attempt to explain is ridiculous. How can that which is beyond mind, beyond time, beyond concepts, beyond words, be explained in words."
----Excellent, and your Mind/Brain came to such a proper............Realization of non-Wordage-ness.

"And even if he does say – it will just be more words. Truth cannot be said."
----Relative Truth can be discussed all the time. Absolute Truth cannot be said.

Therefore, would "Realization of the One" be a statement that is not necessary?

Roger,
Your arguments and the points you raise are correct.
Because we are discussing it, we are using words. And obviously we are operating in the arena of the mind and duality in the process of discussing it.
“"And even if he does say – it will just be more words. Truth cannot be said."
----Relative Truth can be discussed all the time. Absolute Truth cannot be said.” – Roger
Yes – that is true – and we are speaking of the absolute – using words and the mind.
“Therefore, would "Realization of the One" be a statement that is not necessary?” – Roger
Basically – nothing can be said – but since we are discussing it – something has to be said. So we are saying it.
In zen it is called the First Principle. A seeker asks a master If he can say something about the first principle.
The master says “No, because then it would become the second principle”

Well, at 160 comments and counting, (161 now)
this looks like this might just be the post with the most comments ever.

I found this posting
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2013/05/gurinder-singhs-son-become-ceo-of-religare-subsidiary.html

that has 136 comments - which looks like the previous record,
- but that has taken 4 years - not a few weeks to happen.

So this is obviously a hotly debated and controversial topic to generate such interest.

Yes and Gurinder always cares for Brian. Brian even doesnt comment he just sits back and enjoys attention that he gets.

Gurinder hold ratio for Beyonce...sorry for Brian

Osho, when ever Pot Stirrers show up, that know the right Hot Buttons to push, they get lots of nibbles on their Bait. Oneness Advaita obviously is a controversal issue, no less than God is. You have obviously thrown your Oneness Bait out in to many Ponds. You know which fishing Lore to use in each Pond.

Are you aware or conscious, that while you operate in Duality, that you are continuing to create new Karma for your SELF, with each new action, or non action you take, which will surely delay your arrival to become unconscious, in the Oneness you expect to eventually enter, dropping individual Duality?

Living with out keeping rules, or disregarding to consider what you do, as immoral, illegal, self destructful, or is it helping others to escape Charausi will not put you on the Anami Express!

Or with out keeping the Vows you agreed to do your best to try to keep, when you were accepted for Initiation by Charan Singh, aren't you just eating, drinking, and making merry, as in my prior post, postponing your arrival to Oneness?

As for the other thread that has the Hot Button discussing Gurinder's son, and money, do you think Gurinder robs Seekers of their money, and uses it on his own luxury buying Jets, and Rolls Royces as your Guru OSHO did? Why should a Master suddenly become ignorant to the Business world and earning money after becoming the Leader of RSSB? How do you know Gurinder Singh doesn't earn money using his Buisiness Skills, and uses it to expand RSSB and provide shelter and Solitude to more and more marked seekers?

Instead of fleecing the Flock, and using their donations for his own use, he most likely is earning his money and wealth out side of RSSB activities, and contributing much of it to operating RSSB, along with the help of his Business savy sons.

When Gurinder Singh was appointed by his Uncle to succeed him, to become leader of RSSB, why would a Business savy man suddenly loose his Business expertise, and ability to earn money and prosper?

Hopefully, Gurinder will appoint his successful Son to suceed him, and continue the Family Blood Line, rather than turning RSSB over to an unknown, or leaving it to some self proclaimed guru, trying to take over RSSB, as Kirpal Singh did, when Sawan Singh passed, and appointed some one Kirpal thought was unworthy. We all know how that turned out!

One Initiated, that was truly beautiful! I mean your detailed account up there, written in response to my request. Thank you.

Your experiences themselves were, well, beautiful, and there really isn’t anything else for anyone to say there about it, except to enjoy the beauty of it. These accounts are inspirational for anyone on the spiritual path, even if that path is different from yours. Once again, thanks.

The reason you put forth for not allowing general discussion about experiences, as well as the provision of spaces for discussion when needed for the strictly utilitarian reasons (those elderly Gyanis of yours, for instance), those make sense to me. That is, if you were to accept the RSSB premise, I can see no outright inconsistency there.

On small quibble/question from someone with much less knowledge of these things than you : my impression was that RSSB practice centers around the Ajna Chakra. You on the other hand talk about the Crown Chakra there (which I guess would correspond with the Sahasrara of Tantric and Kundalini schools). Is it that you graduate from the one to the other in RSSB meditation?

That was just a very minor detail that I found curious, and is certainly no critique of your whole rather lovely post, just a request to clear up a small detail.

Jim, thanks for your answer. You’re saying that other Sant Mat Gurus also would probably be GIHFs if it so happens that they too project out their Radiant Selves. Sound reasonable. That would mean, per your paradigm and basis your own argument, that RSSB isn’t necessarily the only bona fide Sant Mat path, as far as you yourself know.

I don’t know what you meant, in your reply to me, when you spoke of “spin”. Do you think I’m trying to obliquely trip you up in some way? I assure you I’m not : I can barely walk straight enough my own self in this world, without remotely wanting in any way to impede *anyone* else’s walking as they think fit, neither you nor Osho Robbins nor anyone else. I only asked about non-RSSB Radiant Forms because I was curious, nothing more ; and the context was the Radiant Form of Thakar that came up in the course of your discussion with Osho Robbins.

Incidentally, did you read One Initiated’s long and detailed comment, where he talks of experts over at the Dera in Beas, who are competent to field questions and are authorized to give answers about people’s inner experiences? That should be useful to RSSB meditators (but then I guess they’d already know). That same role is played in smaller Tantric schools by the Guru himself -- as, I suppose, did happen at RSSB itself in earlier times, when the group was smaller, perhaps during the founder Jaimal Singh’s time. And it makes so much sense. It would be weird if a tradition, any tradition, that gives primacy to meditation and to inner transformation, did not have a mechanism for checking if that meditation was proceeding on course. Apart, I mean, from the inner pointers you told me about earlier on, for which thanks again!

I like how you ended your comment to me. “Caveat emptor”, that does sum it all up when you look at matters religious. (And that is precisely why I go round prying and asking and pettifogging away, even at the risk of perhaps over-thinking simple stuff.) Those two would make a nice pair of mottos for some religious tradition’s escutcheon, each balancing the other one out : Caveat Emptor on top, and Carpe Diem at the bottom.

You know, I’ve said this earlier, and I’ll say this again : despite Brian’s disillusionment with RSSB, and despite Osho Robbins’s recent very competent critique of some elements of the RSSB organization, I myself find this path rather fascinating. I’m already in the midst of some ‘experiments’ of my own, more than one as a matter of fact, else I’d have loved to experiment with the RSSB technique myself! It sounds decidedly appealing to me, in terms of something to at least try out for myself. Perhaps one day, The Force willing?!

Appreciative Reader,
Way too complicated for me. It's hard for me to keep up with what you are asking. so let me see if I understand.
Are you asking this:

If someone (like, you, for instance) were to read and understand all the advaita theory and shall we say, believe it?
then how is that person any different from me?

is that the essence of what you are asking?

Appreciative Reader,
"Advaita is a nifty philosophical system that, if you buy its basic axiom(s),"
You go on to say, that they are axioms that you personally do not buy into.

Which axioms? Can you elaborate here in detail.

Appreciative Reader writes:
“That is why I had referred to Ramana Maharshi : the “Oneness” *was* his particular domain after all, and although he too did not (or could not) describe that actual state, he did, in straightforward words, describe his early and later experiences, he did talk of how his ego dropped off and what it felt like, and he did explain exactly how all of that contributed to his world-view of Oneness "

So what? I could also describe many experiences in great detail leading to the ONENESS – however, I don’t for one reason:

they are all irrelevant. The point is NOTHING you do: no technique, no experience, no methodology, no meditation will take you to that state, It cannot. It will all be part of your journey – but once you arrive at the destination, it’s all irrelevant.

When it happens – it happens DESPITE all efforts not because of them.

That is the case with me – I went to many masters (and I don’t mean sant mat masters) and each played his part – then I went through a painful experience which triggered the ONENESS and suddenly it all became instantly clear.

In that moment – all my previous identity disappeared and I became nothing. I dropped all connection to the old me – it was like it was someone else.

If I describe all this in great detail, how does that validate my state? It is all irrelevant.

Again – just words and you can always find holes in wards. You have to have plenty of salt and take all words with a pinch of salt.

“To the specific questions I asked, you’ve said *nothing* at all, although you’ve used very many words to say it in.” - Appreciative Reader

I am afraid it is the same for all “enlightened” people. They all use many words to say nothing. Nothing can be said because for YOU to realize truth, you have to go find a realized person and hang out with him or her and see what happens.

The words that get spoken there are not that significant. Something else happens that I cannot tell you in words.

When Vivekenanda asked Ramakriskna “What is the proof there is a God?” do you know the answer he gave?
He jumped up and said “I am”
What kind of answer is that?
Yet it is the only answer that can be given.
Because the question is theoretical. “What is the proof there is a God”
There is no God, so how can you ask for proof?
Ramakrishna was saying – get to know me – come on the journey and see what happens. No amount of talking is going to help.

Hi Appreciate Reader - thanks for your thoughtful & considered post. You ask some terrific questions! To be honest, these days I have no real inclination, passion or desire to discuss these topics beyond the most superficial level (which all of my previous posts in this thread have been - you've been the first to make any remarks requiring of any deeper thought :), either online or in "real life". Some 17 odd years ago (and for the subsequent 10 odd years), I had an irresistible urge to share/put into writing all my experiences, perhaps more for my own therapeutic benefits than anyone elses. Though I do wonder about the younger me who used to devour all the forum posts over at Radhasoamistudies (and elsewhere) when I myself wasn't a member or posting.....in some sense, all my posts are a little payback to that younger me who learnt so much, considered so many ideas I myself never considered/was aware of from all those wonderful and fascinating posters......Anyway, all my posts are still there, unedited or deleted. There's one called "Diary of a Fool (or Madman?)" over at Radhasoamistudies which shares a LOT of my life and experiences, especially in relation to my time with RSSB....

Regardless, on the off-chance you or somebody else is genuinely interested & open-minded, I will struggle to write a post that does your questions justice, without writing a huge novel :)


AR: "I’m intrigued by your mention of your apparently diverse “experiences”, some fuelled by certain specific drugs, some not (to paraphrase from one of your comments above). Would you talk of these experiences of yours (or, if they’ve been too numerous, then of those experiences that to you seem the most remarkable or at least those which turned out to be the most pivotal for you personally)? What led you (I mean what process, or what sequence of events or efforts) to such experiences, and what were the experiences actually like?"

Me: Well, sorry, this question could take a lifetime to answer/express and I still wouldn't be able to succeed! I can only summarise, briefly and quickly: I've been obsessed with the concept of "God" and spirituality since I've been conscious, aged around 3 or 4. I was born that way, as nobody in my immediate family is religious. I am well known across my entire extended family (around a 100 people?) as being "odd" in that sense (I could be more explicit, easily, but in the context of the mindset of most readers here it will merely be seen as "self-advertisement" or boasting, fair enough....less shared! :). I've been meditating, off and on, since aged around 5. I have gone through long periods of no meditation at all, especially when very young to my early twenties. I have also gone through long periods (months) of meditating between 3 to 8 hours a day, as well as practicing sleep and dream practice during the night (one of the 6 Yogas of Naropa in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition). I practiced a wide variety of "western occult" practices from aged around 10 and was able to "astrally project", lucid dream or OBE virtually at will (or at least within 24 hours of desiring to "OBE". I've had spontaneous visionary experiences since I was aged around 8. The undercurrent to all of these early in life experiences was a deep, deep devotion and love towards a Divinity which often lead me into rapturous states of ecstasy (where, incidentally, I've already cried rivers of tears :). At aged around 12 I came across Charan Singh's "The Path" book and immediately recognised it as the "truth" (and immediately became 100% vegetarian in a family of meat eaters, still am to this day 27 years later! Though I had spontaneously given up meat and even refused it sporadically since being a baby, as my mother often reminded me!). Aged around 17 my devotion went into hyper-drive - I wrote a letter to Gurinder and subsequently became completely obsessed with him. For the next 3 odd years I would have countless visionary "inner experiences" with Gurinder & even Sawan Singh, many intimations of past lives and relations etc I even had one experience of Gurinder which turned out to be a premonition of an exact event later that same day (shared on RSS forum...basically had a dream/vision of Gugu walking up to and past me, sat on the floor on green grass, with folded hands looking me right into the eyes and saying "Radhasoami". Upon awakening went to do my regular Saturday seva (I mainly used to shovel shit, just about my station in life in general :) at Haynes Park London, and just before we got to the road, I turned to my good, good friend (nay, brother) from those days and said "Baba Ji's here today" (there was no expectation he would be, it was a regular Saturday).....now here's a clue.....I to this day don't WHY I said that, the words just came out of my mouth before I had consciously thought about them. My friend looked quizzically at me, not saying anything knowing I was quite an odd sort! A few minutes later, when we pull into the grounds, we notice all the cars are being queued in such a way that shows Gurinder was there....I'll never forget the look on my friend's face when he said "how did you know?!"...I just smiled and said nothing......he must have read so much into that smile that wasn't warranted. Smart people be aware; I had absolutely no clue myself! Since that day, I've had hundreds of similar experiences in a completely "secular" context. The narrative, theology, dogma etc we read into these experiences is often driven purely by context, we lose the meta-reality, the meta-truth.....anyway, point being later that day Gugu walks past, while I'm sat on grass identical to my dream some 8 hours earlier, with folded hands, within touching distance, looks me into the eye and says "Radhasoami"....EXACTLY as in the dream. I had NEVER seen him that close or in that setting before.......

Well, this is only Q1 and, well, just look! I'm not even half way into shit :) Okay, then I started questioning the deeper truth or reality of my experiences and what they may ultimately mean or signify. I started broadening my information base, I absolutely devoured David Lane's Neural Surfer website, all of it, in one day's sitting! The teachings of Faqir Chand especially effected me. I thought Dave's tale of Chand fascinating and resonated with what I was learning myself from my own experiences and new knowledge (too much to expand). Something wasn't "quite right" with this path, but I kept that all suppressed deep down as all believers do. Anyway - now pay attention any still reading - through another well known sevadar at Haynes Park who'd been going for years (we'd go in each others cars together for years, unless 2 cars were needed for the local sangat), I was told to come and meet this guy talking about "non-duality" (I'd drifted away from the path myself for about a year I think??). This person appeared out the blue after my not going for a year. At the time I was undergoing some serious physical pains, so bad in fact (aged around 22 or 23?) that I had to leave work and was more or less bed ridden. I went to doctors, hospitals and a dentist, had numerous (around a dozen?) scans etc, but nobody ever could tell me what this may possibly be. I was certain I was going to die. Having been disillusioned with RSSB a while back and more or less becoming a sceptical, nihilist sceptic who thought all inner experiences were delusions, I at no point thought this had anything to do with spirituality or whatever, I just assumed I had cancer or something and docs couldn't find it. Anyway, I struggled to this meeting with this "non-dual" fellow, which I thought might be interesting. That fellow was our very own Osho Robbins :) During that meeting, we ended up discussing for hours. I would say I had the classic "advaita" realisation of modern times during that discussion. And it is indeed a palpable "thing" that changes everything in one's perceptual experience, forever, without doubt. And it cannot be explained in words. The very best I can say is that there is no perceptual centre to being (Buddhist realisation of annata or no-self), whereas before, there is. Everything externally remains the same.

Annnyways, I no neo-advaita fan myself, so moving swiftly on. Following that day, over the next days, weeks, months (and years), I had what I would label a non-dual kundalini awakening. The pain would completely disappear (actually, would turn into indescribably intoxicating nectar....as I subsequently found is described in numerous tantric texts) over the next 2 days and has never returned, unless I focus on a specific region in my head........

Since then, I had had experiences so utterly non-linear and non-human, that I simply do not have the energy to attempt to describe them here. I've attempted to do so before, I'm not sure the current context/readers is the most conducive to exciting me enough to describe them. Which, I have to admit is shame....THIS right here is where it's all happening :) The vast majority have occurred spontaneously......but bearing in mind many of those days I'd been meditating for 8 hours.......

Re. "drugs", I had taken LSD and mushrooms ostensibly for "recreation" as a teen (though, truly, it was just a manifestation of my desire to explore consciousness). However, since my "kundalini advaita event" some 17 years ago I've had zero interest in using anything like that for kicks or recreation. I've taken mushrooms twice, DMT once over a period of several days, and Salvia 3 or 4 times in that 17 years and always alone. On each occasion my sole interest was in comparing and contrasting my conscious state "post kundalini" (which was heavily visionary, ecstatic etc) with these substances to both "test" my state and also see if there was a potential connection between my experiences and these chemicals.

DMT, for instance, is a naturally occurring endogenous chemical (meaning it is produced within our own bodies). I read books & watched documentaries about this chemical for around 5 (?) years before I tried it, and that too just the once! Now, I have my own ideas about this chemical, but it is indeed interesting to note that this is produced within our own bodies, is one of only a few chemicals able to cross the brain blood barrier, and if I'm not mistaken there has been some scientific evidence to suggest it is actually produced in the pineal gland (as found in rats). Perhaps all this RS meditation is merely the art of releasing internal DMT?

I mean, come on - has anybody listened to these people recounting their experiences? The only part of the traditional RS spiritual journey narrative that comes anywhere near matching the kind of experience/information these people are having is Soamiji's Sach Khand and above!!! Some parts are narratively indistinguishable, and narrative is all we have here

Okay, moving on as this is already far too long and time consuming!......

AR: "Also -- since you’ve evidently, from your comments, analyzed these things a good deal (rather than simply accepting your experiences, or accepting some doctrinaire explanation about them) -- how exactly do you interpret your experiences, and what do you think about them in the larger scheme of things? Have they been of any real use at all to you, and what overall world-view do they lead you towards? (That’s a great many questions, I realize, and a request for a potentially very lengthy answer : so whatever and however much you are comfortable answering here.)"

Me: My ultimate realisation is I really haven't got a clue about anything at all, but something freaking strange is going on here!! :) I suspect reality will turn out to be far stranger, far more mysterious, far more beautiful than the rather miserable & elitist theology of RS or ANY OTHER existent religion, science or belief that any human has ever conceived of.

Let me say a few things in my defense, over the years I let much nonsense said about me slide, I really have no interest in defending myself, it's the subject matter that interests me. But in the hope that it may perhaps clarify what I'm saying.......

Many people, many people, have accused me of saying "my experience is better than yours" or "self-advertising" as mentioned in this very thread. And, despite almost never defending myself from this claim, I can very, very easily see why people are saying/seeing it in my posts. I prefer subtlety, and I genuinely think anybody who is to understand and appreciate my posts will see through superficial appearances to what I'm actually saying.

If anybody's actually understanding what I'm saying, they will notice it's infinitely more so a "so what" or "okay, that's nice, but what does that actually mean" rather than thinking I've had special experiences. I don't lie or exaggerate about my experiences, but I also don't pretend I haven't had them...precisely because they are so much of "nothing" in my mind. Did I drink a cup of tea today or was it coffee, what is there to be "proud" about either way? What's the big deal & so what? Intelligent and astute observers may notice that I personally in no way am proud of my own experiences. The most intelligent may notice that I don't place much value in such experiences at all......there is a deeper truth or reality which isn't anybody's property or "experience".

What is that deeper truth? Well, as I said before, I really haven't got a clue and it certainly cannot be expressed here! As a tangible manifestation that can be "grokked", I don't give the slightest monkeys about Radhasoamis, Islam, Christianity, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, materialism or any other belief system (however much I'm accused of hatred or bitterness by those emotionally invested when I challenge these anthropomorphic belief systems). What DOES remain from "experiences" and insights is a deep sense of CONNECTION. I have no interest whatsoever in the perpetual bliss of Sach Khand nor any fear whatsoever of the hells of Islam or "chaurasi" of Radhasoamis. If there remains even ONE "soul" in any of these places, then what care or concern should I have about my own "soul"? This is a sense of "connection" that is utterly non conceptual, utterly non-dogmatic. It just IS and it needs no justification. (many realisations can & do arise out of this sense of connection, not least of which is the illusion of separateness, karma, reincarnation, individual "souls" etc. An entirely different reality is observed AND lived in....) There is a sense of freedom, liberation, exhilaration that comes with this realisation that cannot be matched when traversing dualistic paths as individual ego-souls.......because duality is incompleteness, fear arises naturally.

In this reality, it is not so much supporting this or that "belief" or "dogma", it is more about lessening the suffering of all living beings, to the best of our meagre capacities. In this - and I have stated it many times to many people, the only thing I think is of any importance! - I have failed miserably, time and time again. All of my posts online, imo, have been arguments against the suffering of conscious beings. The RSSB narrative, as well as being stunningly naive & demonstrably false - is an elitist one (a narrative for a hyper-inflated ego, if there ever was one!). And you could smell it right the way through the pro-RSSB comments on this thread, From multiple usages of the term "rejects" to thinly veiled threats for criticising the teachings and gurus. Asides from those comments, more importantly, the RSSB world view is a pretty miserable one as well as elitist. God created this virtually eternal hell-hole of "chaurasi" solely for the purpose of escaping it? And how do you escape it? By getting initiated by the "true" master or religion - out of thousands - even it be headed by a multi-millionaire businessman who is as seemingly disparate from the mythological description of a "true master" as it is possible to be!! Seriously, God must be an absolutely evil & demented crackpot if this deeply absurd and patently anthropomorphic narrative is true.....

Okay, getting too long and I'm sure I'm not unpacking even 1% of the information I'm trying to relay.....next Q:

AR: "And finally, if I may be permitted a third question : You mention at one place that these “experiences” are quite commonplace, and that thousands and perhaps even millions have had them. Do you mean that literally, and can you point me to some source for those numbers (and I don’t ask this in order to challenge you about the exact numbers, I only mean source/s that point towards such large magnitudes, generally speaking -- so that I’d be fine if, in case it turns out there are no documented sources as such that you referenced, you could then talk anecdotally of subjective sources that led you to such large magnitudes in this context)."

Me: Good question. And yes I do mean that figure literally!

Look, I've been absolutely obsessed with all aspects of the spiritual, mystical, paranormal, altered states of consciousness etc since I can remember. And I mean obsessed. When everybody else was out building careers and making families, and working their spirituality INTO all this.........THIS is literally all I was doing and interested in! I am almost entirely uneducated (despite easily being one of the brightest at school - as told by teachers on more than 1 occasion in front of class, when I was being disruptive :), work rubbish mind-numbing jobs, am fairly poor and have no wife or children or partner at all! This wasn't an accident. :)

Having studied thousands of books about meditation, mysticism, tantra, yoga, NDEs, astral projection, OBEs, kundalini, after death communications, mediums, alien & UFO experiences, fairy lore, dream work, psychology, psychiatry, neurology, physics, entheogenic experiences, parapsychology, philosophy, cults, Virgin Mary apparitions, various occult practices, "sacred history" etc etc etc, having spoken to hundreds of people in a variety of personal contexts, having been a reader of dozens if not hundreds of forums over the past 20 years across a wide spectrum of experience and perspective, having watched countless online clips and podcast interview - perhaps thousands just there! - I can without doubt say thousands are having these experiences, if not millions.

But what do you mean by these "experiences"? Shall we take One Initiated's experiences which they have so kindly and informatively shared? (PS I've said the same as I'm going to say here about another poster's experience on the RSS forum - several people, inc. those who appreciated my posts and were sceptical of RSSB misunderstood my meaning, so I'll try to make it even clearer here).

When I say these are all common "basic" experiences, I am not downplaying them. I am simply sharing my knowledge and understanding, as well as personal experience. There is LESS than zero percent to suggest these experiences are somehow unique to RSSB or even the RS method in general, and that is my only point. These are common experiences within all schools of meditation that practice for several hours a day. Indeed, every single experience OI has recounted in described in detail in the texts of Daoism and Buddhist (without doubt the 2 most "advanced" meditation traditions and texts in the world, technically speaking, RS is child's play in context, as may become clearer below). I'm NOT questioning the experiences (many if not all of which I've experienced myself, btw - I'm not initiated), I am simply questioning how we extrapolate FROM these experiences the elitest dogma and theology that is overlayed upon them? Again, intelligent observers may note the sheer amount of dogma & beliefs that have been spoken in this thread - and just how LITTLE those claims are supported by the actual experiences which have, thankfully, been shared! Ah, a little experience of something mysterious gives many the confidence to assume everything else must be true.....

There is a wonderful book which may give some context those uninformed and ignorant of the sheer depth and technicality of Daoist and Buddhist meditation practices It is worth buying the full book for those who can afford it and have an interest in the subject:

http://www.meditationexpert.com/Chapter4.pdf

http://www.meditationexpert.com/Stages2.pdf

Having read hundreds of books on Daoism and Buddhist meditation, there is absolutely nothing in One Initiated's experiences that isn't described therein, or shared by people on other forums who've never heard of RS or been initiated by anyone...

OI: "After the meditation your breathing frequency drops significantly and it’s length also gets way way too shortened. Like, once you inhale.. "

Yes, this is known as "khumbaka" - the real khumbaka, not the imitated one in modern yoga schools. As I wrote and asked about on the RSS forum several years ago, one of the phenomena I experiences was what seemed like a complete cessation of breath, just prior to entering "samadhi", for lengths of time that seemed physically impossible. A few people said they agreed, one person - ironically a kriya yoga teacher (I found out years later in Kriya Yoga this is a well known phenomena!) and RS initiate - said they don't believe this happens. As I said, I believe this is a fairly common phenomena for people just about to enter Samadhi. It doesn't matter whether you're initiated by Barney Rubble or a stick of Candy.......obviously.....

OI: "You tend to cry so much frequently."

Too common to even address.

OI: "The whole body feels so lightweight"

Too common to even address.

Just read any advanced book on Buddhist meditation and what one may experience from it.....

OI: "From the top of the head (crown chakra) to your whole chest feels like super wet, and when I actually checked there is no wetness outside it’s all plain and dry,"

Ah, something not too common! You're making progress! If only you had somebody competent to guide you through those experiences, because for sure RS is woefully inadequate to guide in comparison to Daoism and Buddhism!

No seriously, these feelings of liquid being dropped on one's head I've read about so many times in Daoist and Buddhist texts. There is a reason why religions "anoint" people with an oil on their forehead. These are very specific experiences at very specific stages, according to both Daoism and Buddhism. Obviously these experiences also occur in Indian tantra (of which the RS meditation is a "stepped down" relatively modern sub-set of). Whilst I haven't experienced this exactly, I've experienced a liquid down the back of the throat - possibly spontaneously released endogenous DMT imo - but not this over the top of the head one. I have, however, read about it several times from experiencers, none of whom associated with RS, and definitely read about it at least half dozen to a dozen times in a variety if buddhist and daoist texts.....

One Initiated wrote after this experience, obviously referring to my earlier posts - patently misunderstood posts btw - "Dogma ? Delusion ? - these are hilarious words for someone who is experiencing this feeling"

No my friend, your EXPERIENCE of these things is no dogma, no delusion. I've experienced many of them myself, and THAT'S the point.

Your experiences here prove absolutely nothing about RS, RSSB specifically (indeed, most people online have the delusional belief RSSB has no mystical "juice" as Kirpal had it all! We've all got our own juice, and it has ever been thus!), initiation, Gurinder or any other guru etc

It certainly doesn't prove anything whatsoever about me potentially crying rivers and being in "trouble" for speaking my truth. :)

You cannot even see where you experience ends and where your dogma and delusion begin....it is all one, unexamined, uninformed, whole.......

But, again and again, my personhood & point is misunderstood and misrepresented time and time again, as if I'm the one missing something here......

Right - 2+ hours in?!! Enough for a long long while! I feel like I've covered less than 1% of what I intended to & that 1% was done with no real passion or desire to do so, so was done poorly! Peace.

Appreciative reader wrote to Jim,.... "I only asked about non-RSSB Radiant Forms because I was curious, nothing more ; and the context was the Radiant Form of Thakar that came up in the course of your discussion with Osho Robbins."

Jim answers,...both Osho and I were initiated by Thakar Singh. Osho will have to answer tor him self, but I have never seen, or had a glimpse of Thakar Singh inside, nor have I ever heard any of his initiates share that they have.

As for "spinning", its what Liberal Politicians do the best. They dodge the questions asked of them, and spin other answers not related to the question. I think I answer most questions directed at me, head on, with out trying to spin them.

If you really don't know what spinning means,........Manjit's recent Megatone Rant here and in RSS is a Spinner's Delux! "He really isn't interested in discussing these meaningless children's issues " ( my paraphrase ),.... but posting enough to choke Oldies and Newbies alike, which is only 1 % off what he would REALLY would like to shere,....if he had time, and wasn't just passing thru to dump on RSSB, ....if we, his audience were not so spiritually dense,......." HA, HA. Excuse my spiritual ignorance.

Manjit,
Just finished reading your lengthy post. I NEVER read posts that long - I just don't have the patience - but I read yours all the way through. You mentioned the book "The Path." Co-incidentally that was my first ever book too. Just like you, I was into all this "god-shit" at an early age. I mean I used to take "spiritual link" to school and laugh when they talked about the "facts of life" because I thought "I have the REAL facts of life that matter."

I too had only one ambition - and that was to meet Sat Purush face to face and sit down to have tea with him in Sach Khand.

"The Path" (the book) had a huge effect on me. I didn't just believe in Radha Soami at the time - I just KNEW it was the absolute truth without a shadow of a doubt.

At age 18, I went to university in London and came across and joined a group called "SOTM" Spiritual Organisation for the Teachings of the Master. They had a guru called Ishvara and I got initiated and used to meditate 4 hours a day and 6 hours a day at weekends. They had, at the time, 27 enlightened people who we could meet. They called them adepts. That path prepared me for what was to come.

I spent the next 20 years in following Thakar, Darshan and RSSB. I had many experiences of light, numbness, and visions. I also tried astral projection but was not too successful.

I came across "insight Seminars" and "life training" and "landmark" which all gave me a different perspective of life.

Then in the year 2000 a friend told me about a man who he said was very interesting. "I don't know if he is god-realized but he seems to be a good man" is what he said.

I went to see him and he talked and talked for hours on end. He told me stories and quoted scriptures. He explained that God is not somewhere far away, and that there was no journey and HERE NOW was all there is and God can only be found HERE and NOW.

I listened and listened but I didn't get it. I thought he was deluded.

Finally, two months later I asked him a question. "That is all every well, I understand everything you say, but what shall I do to get there?"

He said, "Have your not understood anything?" I had heard it all but I did not believe it as it was so different from the RSSB teachings.

I had never even heard of anything called Advaita. All I knew was sant mat.
It was over a year later that I went through a very painful experience and I wanted to commit suicide.

It was in that moment that something happened that I could not explain. Suddenly everything the man had said to me made sense. It became real and obvious to me.

I had visions of Gurinder telling me that this was the final truth.

I then went to a Master who completely transformed my whole life in four days. It was a five day intensive (12 hours a day) that ended up being four days for me because he threw me out on the morning of the fifth day. Why? Because I was sitting in his chair, teaching before he arrived.

That was the final meeting with him and I emailed him to thank him. I told him I wanted to meet him again to thank him.

He said "I am just a sign post. There is no need to thank a sign post - just use it and continue on your journey."

I stayed isolated from the world for just over a year and then came out and lived a normal life again - except this time - it was all a game.

Even now - what I do is just a game. I am not trying to achieve or attain anything. The idea of achieving God is a joke.
How can YOU achieve God? Are you bigger than God?
And - here's the real punchline

The EGO is the barrier between you and god, right?

and it is the EGO which wants to attain to God.

The very thing that you need to drop and lose

is the one that wants to attain Godhood.

The four day intensive I did with the master I went to was not about listening - it was a process of being with him and being AUTHENTIC.

That means dropping all the pretence and lies that have become second nature to you.

It is not an intellectual exercise.

No amount of writing and talking can give you even the slightest taste.

The process involves being true to yourself and acting from that truth, Then something happens that cannot be explained. And once it happens - you disappear, or more accurately, you never was and never will be.

And it's not a theory. Anyone who says they understand Advaita teachings just doesn't get it.

Advaita cannot be understood. It either happens or it doesn't.

If it doesn't - then you don't understand anything - you just have theories and and ideas and lots of questions.

Once you get it - all questions disappear because it is not a mind subject.

OshoRobbins,

What's true here and now? Is reality still the dream of existence to you?
You are stuck and claim not to be. You are far any experience of Nirguna and claim to understand it. Mind can understand with the aid of knowing of the awareness. Without that, all it does is believes. You believe in Nirguna. And claim that there is no Saguna or the way.
You claim that there is nothing to be done. But, you don't let go and surrender. You never accept your present condition. The truth for a master and you are different. Both of you are on different levels of existence. Free will is true for you, but their is none for a master, just choicelessness.
Similarly, Saguna is true and real for you, you need to go through it; there are no shortcuts.
What you show is like imagination of experience compared to the memory of it.

Different notes of word have created different universes in the same space or so, according to RSSB. You are far from aware of their existence, but claim to understand the realm of the word. That's something far beyond mind and infinite of such tools in existence.
Wait, let me guess. You don't think awareness or consciousness is you.
What keeps on changing about you, can't be your identity. Arms, limbs, thoughts, memory... none can be you. But you are so stuck up with your human experience, that you have ended up with the distorted perception... actually group of thought patterns of nirguna, right?
I don't like you for your superficiality.

Jim writes:
"Jim answers,...both Osho and I were initiated by Thakar Singh. Osho will have to answer tor him self, but I have never seen, or had a glimpse of Thakar Singh inside, nor have I ever heard any of his initiates share that they have."

I have seen his form inside many times and so have so many others. This is because it has nothing to do with Thakar - and everything to do with the person who sees the radiant form. At the time I was devoted. I used to meditate 2-3 hours every day, I had set up a daily routine. I was serious.

I used to also go to the group meditations at the house of the UK representative. I also visited Thakar several times in Sawan Ashram.

Jim wrote: " They dodge the questions asked of them, and spin other answers not related to the question. "

Then he uses Manjit as an example of a spinner. Is Jeff also an example? since he has not even now answered a question I have asked many times and just says "He has won the argument". Or is that more than spinning?

If you use that definition of spinning, you will have to call just about every conversation with an enlightened person a "spin" because he is aware that the question cannot be answered, so he just speaks around the subject.

It is the nature of the topic - when speaking of enlightenment, no answers can be given because it cannot be adequately conveyed in words. Direct answers cannot be given.


Goku writes:
“What's true here and now? Is reality still the dream of existence to you?”
Osho replies:
I am guessing you might be referring to this
“I went to see him and he talked and talked for hours on end. He told me stories and quoted scriptures. He explained that God is not somewhere far away, and that there was no journey and HERE NOW was all there is and God can only be found HERE and NOW.”
Goku, you have gone off on a tangent. You had added the word “true” and then gone ever further by asking “is reality still the dream of existence to you?”
I was writing what he said to me. That God is not in Sach Khand or some distant place or in the future. He is in the HERE and NOW meaning that you have to realise it NOW and HERE – as opposed to TOMORROW and in SACH KHAND.
In other words he was saying to me “don’t postpose and wait for God to come tomorrow.” There is a play called “waiting for Godot” by Samuel Beckett.
You can see it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wifcyo64n-w
A few excerpts to wet your appetite:
“nothing to be done” says one vagabond.
“I am beginning to come around to that opinion. I have told myself,
“Vladimir, be reasonable, you haven’t yet tried everything and I resumed the struggle””
“There’s man all over you. Blaming his boots for the fault of his feet”
“all people are bloody ignorant apes”
Enuf about that – watch it yourself for more. But you will need two hours.

Back to Goku
“You are stuck and claim not to be.”
Osho: How the fuck would you know? And what do you mean by stuck? and in what sense and how do you come to that conclusion?
Goku: “You are far from any experience of Nirguna and claim to understand it.”
Osho: WTF? “experience of Nirguna?” It is not an experience. It is a realization. And I don’t claim to understand it as it certainly cannot be understood.
Goku: “Mind can understand with the aid of knowing of the awareness. Without that, all it does is believes.”
Osho: give me a fucking break! Mind ONLY understands – that is all it can do – and it has trouble doing even that most of the time – hence mis-understanding happens. You speak of “knowing of the awareness” I presume you are writing of what you have personally known?
Goku: “You believe in Nirguna. And claim that there is no Saguna or the way.”
Nirguna is all there is. And nirguna is the empty set. It does not require belief. What makes you conclude that I BELIEVE in nirguna? I don’t.
I am not claiming there is no sarguna. I am saying that sarguna is the means. Everything you “DO” in order to arrive at emptiness is sarguna. So meditation, devotion to the guru. Going to an enlightened master and being in his company and listening to his reantings and spinnings and calling him a liar – all of this is sarguna. Of course there is a sarguna – but it is not the destination – it is the means. And yes – some means is required. Go find a enlightened master and be in his company – THAT is sarguna. I have done that too, many times. That was the path, sarguna.
Goku:
“You claim that there is nothing to be done. But, you don't let go and surrender.”
Osho: “Let go and surrender” is the way. Only I don’t call that a DOING. If you want to call it a DOING – then in your world – you could say there is something to be done – and that is to let go and surrender.
Goku: “You never accept your present condition.”
Osho: What “present condition” are you talking about? And what is there not to accept about any “present condition”? If there is a “present condition” it has to be accepted. Now sure what you are getting at. Maybe you have created some fictional belief of HOW I should be and I don’t fit that “should” – is that what you mean?
Goku:” The truth for a master and you are different. Both of you are on different levels of existence.”
Osho: The truth for a realized person is different from the unrealized – yes that is true.
Goku: “Free will is true for you, but there is none for a master, just choicelessness .”
Osho: FREE WILL is a topic we have not even discussed. So where do you get that belief from? So a master does not have free will, just choicelessness. Now that is what I call a belief. You have heard it somewhere, but do not understand it – but it sounds nice – so you repeat it. Please define what you mean by “FREE WILL” and “CHOICELESS” then I will repond. Otherwise we are not speaking about the same thing.
Goku: “Similarly, Saguna is true and real for you, you need to go through it; there are no shortcuts. “
Osho: When did I say there was a shortcut? I have never mentioned short or long cuts. I am not saying just understand this and that is it. There is a journey – but when you “arrive” then you realize you was already there.
This is how I put it: “Enlightenment is a journey, the destination of which is the realization that there was no journey and no destination and nobody to undertake it or to arrive”
A play on words? yes, perhaps. Full of holes? Yes, Definitely! Contradictory? Yes.
Nonsensical? Yes. It is just a way of saying what cannot be said logically – it can only be said illogically. Anyone seeking logic and definite answers is going to be disappointed.
But if you choose to take on the journey to enlightenment, that is what you sign up to. Oh yes – I almost forgot - you can’t choose – it’s choiceless. So if you choicelessly go on thos sarguna path, it will be full of holes and contradictions and you will say it is all bullshit.
All I can say is embrace the bullshit and become the bullshit and perhaps you will realize that the bullshit is just another name for the NOTHINGNESS – or perhaps not. And then one day you might speak the bullshit and others will say “Bullshit” and you will say “Yes, thank you”
Goku: “What you show is like imagination of experience compared to the memory of it”
Osho: “imagination of experience?” compared to a memory of it. I am afraid I have no idea what you are writing about. Perhaps something imaginary in your mind?
Goku: “Different notes of word have created different universes in the same space or so, according to RSSB.”
Osho: Now you are truly writing nonsense. Different notes of the Word? Oh you mean like BAGPIPES created Sach Khand and the “thunder” created a different region (I will have to refer to the books to check which one). I see – so all this is the truth because it is written in a RSSB book? The same one the guru told you to burn, or a different book?
Goku: “You are far from aware of their existence, but claim to understand the realm of the word.”
Osho: The existence of regions? There are none – so there is nothing to be aware of. I don’t claim to understand Jack Shit. I am having trouble understanding where this is even all leading.
Goku: “That's something far beyond mind and infinite of such tools in existence.”
Osho: Now that, Goku, is a belief. And because you only have beliefs – you think that I have only beliefs. But I don’t believe in all the nonsense you speak about. I have nothing to believe in.
Goku: “Wait, let me guess. You don't think awareness or consciousness is you.
What keeps on changing about you, can't be your identity. Arms, limbs, thoughts, memory... none can be you.”
Osho: When did I say my body was my identity? I am saying there is no identity. The very idea of “Identity” is the core issue. There is no ME – so no identity is required. Sure there is a body and a mind that interacts with the physical world – but it is not ME. I used to think it was ME when I was a struggling sant mat follower.
I used to think that I was a separate soul and that I had been separated from God and now I had to meditate and go through the regions to merge my soul back with Sat Purush.
So if I was to believe that again, That would somehow be the correct path?
Give me a break!
Goku: “But you are so stuck up with your human experience, that you have ended up with the distorted perception... actually group of thought patterns of nirguna, right?”
Osho: How do you know what is distorted? At best you can have a belief. I am not interested in beliefs.
Goku: “I don't like you for your superficiality.”
Osho: “You don’t need to “like” me. That is your business. But I thought it was choiceless? And how do you decide what is superficial? These are all beliefs.

What does it mean that "I don't exist"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxkTX_9JfwM

He says a lady said "I can accept that I don't exist but I cannot accept that my husband does not exist - that is impossible"

All our experiment into self awareness because
"The person is conducting the enquiry"
and the person does not exist.


Advaita is an endless black hole that no one that has ever been born in to a human form can ever prove even exists. Other wise, that Sage would be Anami Purush. And He/She/It does not share Authority.

He has cloned His Soul in to countless individual souls, to explore Multiverses.

Plus, he has created a Chain of Command to expand His Play of Consciousness.

His Overseer of Material Creation is Kal, i.e. Brahma, Lucifer, Jehovah, Universal Mind,.....etc. but, they can not do any thing, with out Anami's permission.

Kal further clones his Universal Mind to seduce individualized souls to host cloned minds, Agents of Universal mind/ Kal, to snare physical bodies to use as slaves.

Sense organs of physical bodies become the Seducers of minds, that have taken individual souls prisoners of Charausi, which keeps its inmates in prison forced to work for the Prison Warden, Kal.

Each individual created soul is a Neuron, in the Kingdom of God, i.e. Anami Purush.

But the Mystery each soul must seek for, and find, is Who has The Key to Open The Kingdom of God to return Home?

Osho and Manjit claim to have found The Key. But their Key doesn't open my lock.

His Overseer of Material Creation is Kal, i.e. Brahma, Lucifer, Jehovah, Universal Mind,.....etc. but, they can not do any thing, with out Anami's permission. - Jim Sutherland

Jim, you have got to be kidding me!
How do they get his permission? and do they sign a contract? and are these actual beings?
are they six feet tall, or 60' giants?
and what happens if he does not give permission? can they get into a fight? or an argument?

obviously they MUST be in TIME/SPACE because there is MOVEMENT and MIND (in order to get permission)

So if it is within TIME/SPACE then it is illusion and part of DUALITY
And anything in duality is UNREAL (Charan singh says this)

So now where do you go from here? (or is it there?)

either Sach Khand is UNREAL
or it has to be the final resting place (well not really a place) of the advaita-ists

What happens if when you get to Sach khand, it is full of
Advaita-ists and you can't stand them.

why don't you drop by in your meditation tonight and ask Anami and his two pals
Alakh and Agam if there is space/time is this Sach Khand and see what they say

That is if you can get close enough without getting burnt
because Alakh Purush has the light of a 1000 suns coming from each hair on his skin


Osho, Sant Mat is taught by using " Allegories".

The Bible may be taken as historical events, that happened, or as Allegorical examples to teach lessons.

Obviously, most of us know Kal and his Pals are Allegories, same as animal sacrifice is an allegory for Mystics to sacrifice their inner animal lusts in order to ascend to Redemption.

Advaita is a black hole with no bottom , so no one who ever entered there has returned to report who was there.

Outside of Anami, its all Duality, and will remain so, as long as there are impermanent witnesses to observe Maya.

As a Fundamentslist Advaitist, are you ready to don a dhoti, sit alone starting at nothing, in silence, as Ramana ended up doing to prove he didn't need any material Maya?

Sach Khand is with out gender, religion, race, nationality, or form, but souls recognise each other there.

Only the Master Lock Smith shares the Combination to the Lock that will open the Door. The Combination Code of Five Names has already been given to you.

Why don't you use the Code to open the Lock to Sach Khand, and come back and share what you expeiienced there?


There certainly is a lot of interest and ongoing discussion in regard to this post. Mind you quite a lot of it is from Osho Robbins. Many contributions are heartfelt and I believe useful in helping to clarify thinking around this issue, particularly in regard to ‘soul’. It is THE issue in my view and ongoing throughout many of Brian’s past posts, (Jim, not all religions have the individuality of soul as their basis - one of the core teachings in Buddhism is the notion of ‘no-self - Anatta - (Manjit spells it differently)).
The last time I was at Dera (end of 2009), someone asked GS what soul was, he answered ‘the truth’. My interpretation of truth is it is that which is unchanging, eternal, without cause, timeless. So my view and understanding of what GS said is that soul must have such ‘attributes’ also. Therefor ‘it' is already home, not separated, cannot be affected by karma as it is not in the sphere of ‘cause and effect’ and cannot be reincarnated as it is not in time/space. As I said previously such things happen to a body/mind, sense-of-self, not soul. I consider this to be one of the confusing elements in regard to what GS now says and the concepts/learnings/satsangs built around the ‘older’ teachings and adopted by satsangis and other truth seekers. The ‘oneness’ approach does simplify things, as it’s more about ‘now’ - less about belief in something ‘once joined’, then kicked out, only to have to suffer separation and struggle through a hierarchy of stages on it’s way back again over a time period. My view is that what we strongly believe in the world of the mind comes to pass. If we believe we are separate then that’s how it will be.

Some writers strongly proclaim that separate souls exist and maintain a sort of individuality even when merged back ‘in the father’, others that this cannot be the case in light of Gurinder Singh’s recent utterances (as understood by them). Earlier, Manjit mentioned Charan Singh’s words ‘May your love of the form culminate in love of the formless’ (very last quote in Legacy of Love). He (CS) also said many times ‘Love is becoming another being’. Both sayings, in my view outline the ultimate non-dual nature of Sant Mat, however there is this indication of time as well as separation. Trying to make sense of this in light of ‘soul’ reminds me that Sant Mat is essentially about Bhakti and its teachings incorporate and elaborate this notion of longing for the beloved. Here separation is key, devotees want to merge with the beloved yet cannot bear to part with the intensity of love generated by the longing created by the separation - gurumukhs. Is this then where soul fits? How does this relate to your average Joe Bloggs satsangi/truth seeker? In what way does this equate to Gurinder’s ‘Oneness’ teaching?

Best wishes to all

Tim

All joking aside,

here is a real serious question for Jim and others who follow RSSB and have experience of the inner regions.

Alakh, Agam and Anami are all BEINGS of some kind. Which means there MUST be some type of FORM. There has to be for separate being to exist.

The individual souls like Jim, Jeff, must also have form because "separate" means form.
Formless is not separate.

So if you accept there is form (which is what it means if you assert that individuality is retained in Sach Khand), then there MUST also be SPACE for those forms to move about in.
And there must also be TIME.

If all this is true, then Sach khand is MAYA and Illusion.

If it's NOT TRUE, then it means there is no individuality.

no individuality means just the ONE or the VOID of the Advaita-ists

As long as we are referring to the regions up to Sach khand, there is no issue.
We can be in our Astral and Causal bodies and can move around as there is TIME and SPACE as those regions are part of MAYA and duality.

The issue becomes apparent as soon as we enter the "purely spiritual realms" where there is no trace of matter (not even astral or causal)

There CANNOT be form. There can only be NO FORM.

NO FORM = FORMLESS = NO SEPARATENESS = NO INDIVIDUALITY.

This is not a matter of opinion or subject to debate.

It is impossible to retain your individuality in Sach Khand.

And Sat Purush and Anami cannot be beings. It can only be ONE.

So anyone who argues that individuality is retained - please explain HOW this is possible.

because it is clearly IMPOSSIBLE.

There is ONE WAY in which it IS possible.

Many years ago I read it in a book called Mysticism Volume 2

Prof L.R. Puri writes that there are COPIES of the higher regions in the lower regions.

so he says, there is a COPY of the next four regions in the Astral region.

He says many get deluded and think they have arrived in Sach Khand, when they are just in the Astral.

In the Causal there are copies of the 3rd 4th and 5th region. Again same thing - those who arrive there get deluded.


Sorry about the BOLD type in my last comment

I was experimenting with the bold tag and missed the closing bold tag

Osho, in Rai Salig Ram's Catechism, he said that The highest Spiritual Realm where Radhasoami Anami Pad is, notice the FORM he said descended from Anai Zpad,....passed thru both Agam and Alakh as SOUND. ( Q 13 )

Check Mate, Advaita! Rai Salig Ram was Swamiji's appointed Successor.

Q, 12. What is Maya ?
Ans. Maya is the mist which covers the spirituality lying below Dayal Desh. In downward or lower creations this mist or cover went on becoming coarser and coarser.

Q. 13. Please describe in detail the stages in the descent of Surat (spirit).
Ans. The real abode of Surat is Radhasoami Anami Pad. Rare Surats have access there, and they are called Param Sants.
A Mauj (wave) arose there and descended in the form of a current of Shabd (sound). Passing through the two stages of Agam and Alakh, it came to Sat Lok. This region is highly refulgent, pure, free from alloy and absolutely spiritual. One who reaches there, is called Sant and Sat Guru.
These four regions of Radhasoami Anami, Agam, Alakh and Sat Lok are collectively called `Dayal Desh'. Mohammedan Fakirs call Sat Lok "Hoot".Leaving two stages of Bhanwargupha and Maha-sunn below Sat Lok is the region of Sunn or Daswan Dwar (tenth door or orifice). From here Surat went down to Brahmand and Pind. This (Sunn) is the Atma Pad (Spirit Pole) of Sants, and Lahoot of Fakirs. Upto this region, Surat is free from five Tattwas (elements), three Gunas (qualities) and body (instrumental, subtle and gross). Purush (Brahm) and Prakriti (Nature) emanated from this stage. It is also called Par Brahm Pad. One who has attained this stage (Sunn) is called a perfect Sadh.

Below Sunn is Trikuti, also called Gagan. This is the region of Brahm, Pranava and Ong. Fakirs have called it Arsh-i-Azim. From this region (Trikuti) have emanated three Gunas and five Tattwas in their subtlest form, and the 'Words' or
sounds of the Vedas and other revealed books, and the subtle matter of entire creation, and pure Maya. This region (Trikuti) is also called Maha Akash. The presiding deity of this region is Brahm, but Sants call him Brahmandi Mana (Universal Mind). Fakirs call him Khuda-i-Azim or Great God.

Below Trikuti is Sahas-dal-kanwal, also called Jyoti Niranjan, Shiva Shakti, etc. In Sant Mat or Radhasoami Faith, a novitiate is instructed to take this stage as the starting point. Sants call it Nij Mana (higher mind). From this region originated the subtle elements (sound, tangibility, form, taste and smell), followed by coarser elements (ether, air, fire, water and earth), and subtle senses and organs, and Pran and Prakritis. An impression or reflection of this plane is received first by the third Til (which is situated behind and midway between the eyes), and then extends to both the eyes. Chidakash (subtle Akash), which is called by some Gyanis as Brahm, originated from Sahas-dal-kanwal, and permeated the body, i.e., Pind and the entire creation below this region.

Jim Sutherland, I have stated some simple points and you have quoted some scripture of Rai Saligram, which does NOT address the points I raised at all, then you say “Check Mate”

Is that an example of what you call “spinning?”
It certainly fits the definition. i.e. don't answer the question and instead write about something completely irrelevant to the topic.

I am writing about TIME/SPACE and stating that IF there is any type for FORM
( that is to say, SHAPE, COLOUR etc) then there MUST BE time and space.
This is the first point
in response to this – you have to say

(1) there IS form
or
(2) NO – there is no form.

you have said nothing.

If you say NO – then I will respond by saying that if there is no form – there cannot be separateness. The very meaning of SEPERATE is that there has to be a shape – an outline to that form. If there is no shape, then it is all ONE.
So – please address this.

And then the next point it:

IF it is within TIME/SPACE then it is illusion and part of DUALITY

IF it is NOT within TIME/SPACE then there is no separateness.

There is no third option, no matter how many scriptures you quote.

You say you always answer any questions addressed to you without spinning.
Then please answer these simple and straight forward points - without spinning.

This is nothing mystical - it is simple logic.


Jim, perhaps you are saying there IS FORM.

because you wrote:
"notice the FORM he said descended from Anami Pad"

I couldn't see where it said that in the subsequent quote, but putting that aside,

it appears you are saying there IS FORM.

If that is correct - then this is the next question to address.

If there is FORM - then, there HAS TO BE (it's not optional) TIME/SPACE.

FORM has to occupy space.
for MOVEMENT to happen - there has to be SPACE.
for there to be an Anami Purush - there has to be SPACE

for example, all dreams and astral projection happen within TIME and SPACE.

And if you admit (as you appear to) that there is TIME/SPACE - then it means those regions are perishable and part of MAYA and DUALITY.

because EVERYTHING (no exceptions) within TIME and SPACE is illusion and UNREAL.

OshoRobbins,
Do enlightened people need to guess? Aren't they supposed to have untied the knots between the reactive entity and their consciousness?


 If you are enlightened, then you have no shadow of the reactive entity or the embodiment of intelligence on your awareness. Then, you are full of light of awareness and hence aware of everything. 

 But, you don't seem to be omniscient. There was also no godliness in Bagwaan Rajneesh Osho. Both of you have at best used only the deeper intelligence of the mind, which is usually covered under the surface of waves of thoughts. And you judge others based on this achievement. 


 What is realization? That's the manifestation of understanding. If you plan on using and cultivating intelligence instead of wisdom, then be my guest. But, atleast don't let your dysfunctional relationship with the present moment make you regress to using your surface level intelligence, and create emotions and feelings. 

 

 You guessed wrong, Osho. I didn't referred to anything, but your level of existence in the present infinite. 

 You think too much for an enlightened person. 


 When awareness becomes aware of something, it's knowing. And understanding is developing trust based on the inner intelligence if the mind. Believing is relying on thoughts and emotions/feelings produced by them. 


Do you know what's wrong with your argument? Your concept of nirguna looks the very same as that of a nihilist. And that's the reality of deep sleep consciousness. And it's much worst than that of a solipsist, whose reality is the reality of physical dreams.


Beyond the dream of existence, there is no illusion of non-existence or absence. 

 There is true existence, but no sense of it. That's advaita. 

There is existence, light and true saguna. But, no sense of how it's like to not have what isn't. 

 There is presence, but no absence. Hence, no sense or awareness of presence. That's why the creation exists, because the presence said "I" and it's all self awareness. 


You kind of say that there is neither presence nor absence.

But, the world is still very real to you, isn't it? 

 Well, I gave an example of how things are different at different levels of existence. But, you certainly do a lot of labeling and judging for an enlightened person. 

 Oh and you evaluated Gurinder's answer, even though you said that you weren't testing him. 


You don't have to use your ability to discrimination and tell me what's a belief and what's not. Things you aren't aware of shouldn't be labelled as beliefs. 


 There were two books published by RSSB, both written by Sabrina Oberoy, one called Wake Up Call in which she worked with Beverly Chapman. I'm not sure about the names, it's been a while since I read them. Anyway, they explain things related to the change in teachings etc, that you try giving your own explanations to. You should read them ASAP, so that you stop making a fool out of yourself. 


Oh and it's available in multiple languages. And you can see that Gurinder doesn't gives dosages of different teaching at different places. I accuse all people who claimed he did of believing so. Are they going to apologize for stating that?

Jim Sutherland writes:
“Osho, Sant Mat is taught by using " Allegories".
Obviously, most of us know Kal and his Pals are Allegories.”

Osho: so there is no actual being called Anami? Or kal? Or Sat Purush? Or even Jot Niranjan?
Despite the detailed descriptions given in Sar Bachan and other books.
Is that correct?

Jim Sutherland writes:
“Outside of Anami, its all Duality, and will remain so, as long as there are impermanent witnesses to observe Maya.”

Osho:
So Sach Khand is also duality, except the very highest rung of Anami Desh?

“and will remain so, as long as there are impermanent witnesses” - WHO are these impermanent witnesses? Do you means SOULS? Are they IMPERMANENT?

Jim Sutherland writes:
“Sach Khand is with out gender, religion, race, nationality, or form, but souls recognise each other there.”

Osho: Without religion? That's a real problem, because I thought we'd all be RadhaSoami's all lving together over there in harmony, eating veggie burgers and attending satsang and doing lots of seva.

Joking aside, you say there is NO FORM. But obviously you are saying Separate Souls exist.
You can't have BOTH.

Here's an example.
Take a cup of tea. Does it have form? Obviously.
Now I want you to make that cup of tea FORMLESS (I.e so it has NO FORM).
Assuming you have the ability to do so, will I be able to SEE and FEEL and experience the cup of tea?
Obviously NOT – because it is FORMLESS and the formless cannot be seen or experienced.
Can I recognize the cup of tea? I can't SEE, FEEL or DRINK it. It's vanished.
Just like all things that have NO FORM.
If I made YOU (Jim Sutherland) FORMLESS right now – I can guarantee that in that very moment you would vanish.

Let me address the advaita question now even though I am not an “advaita-ist” just as I am not a Radha Soami.

Jim Sutherland writes:
“Advaita is a black hole with no bottom , so no one who ever entered there has returned to report who was there.”

Osho:
Well I am going to report it right now – for and on the record. So pay attention because this will only happened the once – then I will vanish into the black hole.

I went there – into the big fucking black hole, and guess what? I still have not reached the bottom of the hole. I wonder why? Oh yes – it's because it is bottomless.
Something else also happened to ME when I entered. It was really strange. But I will describe it in detail.

I fucking disappeared. I am not kidding.

And I don't mean slightly gone – I mean – I was instantly history. I was FORMLESS.

I wanted to MEET the ONE – but even HE was not there. He had also vanished.

I mean it was the strangest experience of my life. One minute I was there and the next minute, POOF - I was GONE.

But just before I disappeared, I had a good look around just so I could write about it on here.
Guess what I saw?
You guessed it! Absolutely fucking nothing.

I mean it was weird man. Just blank empty spaceless timeless void. Even the ONE was nowhere to be seen.

I repeated the five holy names – to see if the rulers would come, but no, not a sign of any of them. Not even Anami. They must have vanished too! I mean the whole lot of them - all gone.

Then I realised what had happened. All the souls who had entered before me had also vanished into thin air.

Now at last I understood. So this is what NOTHING means.

I looked around to see if I could recognise Jim or Brian, or Jeff, or Appreciative Reader, but NO – NOTHING. They had all disappeared.

I thought “The moment I get to the bottom of this – I will reincarnate, take a FORM again and go tell all the living souls what the fuck is in store for them.”
But I have still not got to the bottom of it.

Then I thought “even if I report this – who the fuck is going to listen? They are going to tell me to fuck right off."

So I may as well stay here, and I did.

End of story, err, I mean allegory.

Goku:
“Do enlightened people need to guess?”

Osho: Yes – all the time. Guessing is their best pastime.

Goku:
“ Aren't they supposed to have untied the knots between the reactive entity and their consciousness?”
Osho: what reactive entity? And which knot? You have too many ideas and concepts from the bullshit you have read. It is all nonsense. And there is no “Enlightened” person. And these is no “supposed to” and no “should”. There is simply what IS. And what ISNT.
Goku:
“If you are enlightened, then you have no shadow of the reactive entity or the embodiment of intelligence on your awareness. Then, you are full of light of awareness and hence aware of everything.”

Osho:
What do you think enlightenment is? According to your definition – I am not enlightened and I agree – I am not interested in your or anyone else's version of enlightenment. You are welcome to chase your version. But it is nothing more than concepts.
My version is unique to me. I am not interested in achieving any ideal version that is full of concepts. Enlightenment is not a goal to be achieved. Your version is and you are welcome to spend eternity trying to get there.
Goku:
But, you don't seem to be omniscient.
Osho: Omniscient? What the fuck is that? I have no interest in being all knowing. What is that supposed to mean anyway? I don't claim any powers. I am just me. And I don't even know what it is. I am happy in the not knowing.
Goku:
There was also no godliness in Bagwaan Rajneesh Osho.
Osho: What is this Godliness you speak of? Define it. And I have no interest in what Osho was or was not. I have no allegiance to him. He is just an interesting character.
Goku:
Both of you have at best used only the deeper intelligence of the mind, which is usually covered under the surface of waves of thoughts. And you judge others based on this achievement.
Osho: on what achievement? I have none. Osho can speak for himself.
Goku:
What is realization? That's the manifestation of understanding. If you plan on using and cultivating intelligence instead of wisdom, then be my guest.
Osho: You don't know what it is. You are guessing.
Goku: But, at least don't let your dysfunctional relationship with the present moment make you regress to using your surface level intelligence, and create emotions and feelings.
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Goku: “You guessed wrong, Osho. I didn't referred to anything, but your level of existence in the present infinite. You think too much for an enlightened person.
Osho: again too much nonsense. What has thinking got to do with anything? You have way too many concepts related to your fictional idea of whatever you consider “enlightenment” to be. So let me make it clear. I do not and will not fit into your concepts. Neither will anyone else. Not now and not ever.
You can spend your entire life seeking and looking for someone who fits your ideas ot enlightenment – and you will never find such a person. If you do find them – let me know.
Goku:
When awareness becomes aware of something, it's knowing. And understanding is developing trust based on the inner intelligence if the mind. Believing is relying on thoughts and emotions/feelings produced by them.
Osho: You have your own definitions based on your own concepts. They make no sense to me at all. And I am unenlightened according to your concepts and I wish to remain that way. Thank you.
Goku:
Do you know what's wrong with your argument? Your concept of nirguna looks the very same as that of a nihilist. And that's the reality of deep sleep consciousness. And it's much worst than that of a solipsist, whose reality is the reality of physical dreams.
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about, and I have no interest. I don't have a concept of it. And I don't understand all the complicated labels. Way too complex for me.
Goku:
Beyond the dream of existence, there is no illusion of non-existence or absence.
There is true existence, but no sense of it. That's advaita.
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not an advaita-ist. I am not interested in achieving the goal of Advaita, sant mat, or any other theoretical philosophy. But thanks anyway.
Goku: There is existence, light and true saguna. But, no sense of how it's like to not have what isn't. There is presence, but no absence. Hence, no sense or awareness of presence. That's why the creation exists, because the presence said "I" and it's all self awareness.
Osho: You seem to know a tremendous amount for someone who has not realized it? Or have you realized all this you write about. Personally I can't make head or tail of it and I have no interest in trying. Are you writing from experience or what you have read?
Goku: You kind of say that there is neither presence nor absence.
But, the world is still very real to you, isn't it?
Osho: too many concepts and that leads to living in the mind. Enlightenment is the opposite. Drop all the silly ideas and go to some enlightened idiot who may take you out of the world of concepts. The world is not real. It is only as real as a dream while the dream is happening.
Goku: Well, I gave an example of how things are different at different levels of existence. But, you certainly do a lot of labeling and judging for an enlightened person. Oh and you evaluated Gurinder's answer, even though you said that you weren't testing him.
Osho: I wasn't testing him and I liked his answer. If I hadn't have liked it – that too was fine. And I can comment and evaluate as much as I like – it doesn't mean I am testing. And what is all this obsession with “testing” anyway?
Goku
You don't have to use your ability to discrimination and tell me what's a belief and what's not. Things you aren't aware of shouldn't be labelled as beliefs. 
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about.
Goku:
There were two books published by RSSB, both written by Sabrina Oberoy, one called Wake Up Call in which she worked with Beverly Chapman. I'm not sure about the names, it's been a while since I read them. Anyway, they explain things related to the change in teachings etc, that you try giving your own explanations to. You should read them ASAP, so that you stop making a fool out of yourself.
Osho: Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us? Because all the RSSB believers here are struggling to make sense of it all.
Goku:
Oh and it's available in multiple languages. And you can see that Gurinder doesn't give dosages of different teaching at different places. I accuse all people who claimed he did of believing so. Are they going to apologize for stating that?
Osho: Any statements I have made are from what I have heard. Not hearsay.

Goku,
you have a head full of concepts about what enlightenment should be and should not be. According to YOUR concepts, is Gurinder enlightened? Is Charan Singh enlightened?
What about Kirpal and his successors?
Are you a RSSB follower and initiated? and have you had any inner experiences.

Osho Robbins, your imagination about Anami Pad, whete you vertainly have never had even a minute glimpse of, is running wild!

Swamiji witnessed seeing " Hansas" in Sat Lok, where he must have been allowed to visit, unlike Advaitists who are never allowed to enter these Regions, because they have never revived the Combination to the Master Lock shared by the Master Lock Smith.

Carefully study Swamiji's full description of the " Regions" you keep saying don't exist, and that Gurinder Singh said ( accorcing to you ) don't exist.

Scroll down to Sat Lock and see that " Hansas " exist there. So, FORM of some kind, obviously exists thete, in Time and Space, where RADHASOAMI dwells.

Sent from my i Pad -- Jim Sutherland


Begin forwarded message:

From: James Sutherland
Date: June 4, 2017 at 5:54:58 AM EDT
To: Jim Sutherland
Subject: Hidaytnama

HIDAYATNAMA

(ESOTERIC ..INSTRUCTIONS)

'REVELATION GIVEN OUT IN THE COURSE OF TEACHINGS IMPARTED ABOUT THE VALUE OF ASSOCIATION WITH, AND SERVICE OF, THE PERFECT GUIDE, AND ABOUT THE DIFFERENT GRADES OF ADEPTS, AND INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF SHABD, AND THE SECRETS OF SHABD MARG (YOGA), AND THE VARIOUS STAGES ASSOCIATEDWITH IT.

This discourse is meant for those who are desirous of finding the Supreme Being, and who are true seekers and want to know which religion is the highest and what path is the most sure and direct. They should minimise their worldly attachments. In other words, leaving the care for wealth, wife and children to fate, they should give paramount importance to the company of saintly persons. And out of saintly persons, the company of that Adept should be adopted who is a practitioner of Surat Shabd or of Drisht; (sight), that is to say, who is conversant with the technique of the Yoga of Surat Shabd, has perfected the practice of withdrawing the spirit currents from the pupils of the two eyes, and of uniting them ; and who performs the practice of raising the spirit, by hearing, internally, celestial sounds.

In case an Adept of this class is not available, they should search out one who performs the practice of `striking the solar plexus with Name' (repeating the Holy Name in a particular manner at the heart centre), or one who performs the practice of 'breath control'.

The company of such a person would: also purify the heart, curb evil propensities and confer some inner joy. But the ascension of the spirit can be achieved through the practice of Surat Shabd Yoga alone.

It behoves the seeker to develop love and devotion for such a personge, to perform His service with zeal, to solicit His attention and kindness by rendering service of all kinds with body, mind and wealth, and to gaze at His eyes continuously for an hour or two, without letting the eye-lids close, as long as possible.

The duration of this practice should be prolonged day by day. Whenever He casts His benign gaze on you, your heart will be purified. When, in His grace, He initiates you into the secrets and methods of the practice referred to above, your spirit will begin to catch hold of the celestial sounds. You should perform this practice daily, twice,,four times or as many times as you find time. If your mind gives rise to delusions and wanderings, prayers should be offered to Sant Sat Guru and the practice should be performed with greater effort. Guru's kindness and your application would certainly result in progress day by day. It is not proper to be hasty or impatient, because haste makes waste, and is characteristic of the devil.

Whatever is achieved gradually is beneficial, and what ever is acquired pronto does not last, because such an acquisition is the gift of Satan. Whatever is obtained from the Merciful Guru endures. All this refers to external modes of devotion. The inner state and the stages to which Sants have access are described below.

When your eye turns inward in the brain and you see the firmament within, and your spirit leaves the body and rises upward, you will see the Akash in which is located Sahas-dal-kanwal, the thousand petals of which perform the various functions pertaining to the three worlds. Its effulgence will exhilarate your spirit. You will at that stage, witness Niranjan, the lord of three worlds. Several religions which attained this stage and took the deity hereof to be the lord of all, were duped. Seeing the light and refulgence of this region they felt satiated. Their progress was stopped. They did not find the guide to higher regions. Hence they could not proceed further.
At the apex of this Akash, there is a passage which is very small like the eye of a needle. Your Surat (spirit) should penetrate this eye. Further on, there is Banknal, the crooked path, which goes straight and then downward and again upwards. Beyond this passage comes the second stage.

Trikuti (Region having three prominences) is situated here. It is one Lakhi Yojan2 in length and one Lakh Yojan in width. There are numerous varieties of glories and spectacles at that plane which are difficult to describe. Thousands of suns and moons look pale in comparison to the light there. All the time, melodious sounds of Ong Ong and Hoo Hoo, and the sounds resembling thunder of clouds, reverberate there. On attaining this region, the spirit becomes very happy, and purified and subtle.

From here onward, it becomes cognizant of the spiritual regions.

After having enjoyed the bliss of this region for some time, the spirit goes up one crorel Yojans and reaches Sunn, the third stage. Mohammedan Fagirs (Saints) bare called it "Lahoot." It is indescribable. Here, the spirits enjoy great beatitude. The refulgence of this region is twelve times that of Trikuti.

Pure pools of ambrosia, called . "Mansarovar", abound here. There are innumerable flower pots and gardens. Spirits,, like beauties, dance at various places. There are pleasing and sweet victuals, all savoury and fresh, and sonorous and musical strains can be heard every where. All this bliss can be experienced by the spirit only when it reaches there. It cannot be described. At every place, fountains of nectar are at play; in other words, pools of nectar are overflowing and streams of nectar are gushing out. How can one describe the splendour and decoration of this region ? There are platforms of diamonds, beds of emeralds and plants of jewels, all studded with rubies and precious stones. Bejewelled fish, swimming in pools there, display their beauty and ornamentation and their glitter and sheen attract attention. Beyond this, there are innumerable palaces of caystals and mirrors, in which spirit enities reside at their respective spots, as allocated by the Lord. They witness and exhibit ever changing revels. In Hindi, they have been described as "Hansa Mandlies''. The decoration and embellishment of these regions can be appreciated only by seeing them. The entire creation there is purely spiritual. It is Free from material constituents. The denizens, there, are spiritual and free from
physical taints. Full particulars of these regions are known only to Sants. It is not meet to describe them in greater detail.

Having sojourned there and having enjoyed the glory thereof for a very long time, the spirit of ` this Faqir moved on, in accordance with the instructions of the Guides. After traversing five arab and seventy-five crore yojans upward, the spirit entity effected ingress into the bounds of Hahoot and witnessed the panorama of that region. There an expanse of ten Neel is enveloped in darkness.

The depth of this dark region cannot be fathomed. The spirit went down one kharao yojans, still the bottom was nowhere to be found. Then the spirit turned upward and proceeded on the path chalked out by Guru. It was not considered advisable to go down right to the bottom of this region I his region is called Maha-sunn There are four extremely subtle sub-regions there, the secrets whereof have not been revealed by any Sant. There are prison cells for the condemned spirits, ejected from the court of the True Supreme Being. Although these spirits are not subjected to any trouble and they perform their functions by their own light, yet, as they do not get the Darshan of the Lord, they are restless. However, there is a way of their remission also. Whenever Sants happen to pass that way with spirits reclaimed from the lower regions, some of these spirits fortunately get Their Darshan. Such spirits go along with the Sants who very gladly take them to the court of the Lord and get them pardoned.

The spirit, thereafter, went to Hootal Hoot, which, in Hindi, has been described as Bhanwargupha. There is a rotating swing here which is all the time in subtle motion, and the spirits ever swing on it. All round, there are innumerable spiritual islands from which the sounds of "Sohang Sohang" and "Anahoo Anahoo" rise all the time. Spirit entities playfully and rapturously enjoy these sounds. Other characteristics of this region cannot be reduced to writing, as they can be realized by the spirit only when it reaches there by performing Abhyas. Hence it is necessary to continue the practice of this mode of devotion and it is called the Shabd (sound) practice. Do not give it up.

Having witnessed the spectacle of this region, the spirit entity proceeded upward and went on ascending. Whiffs of scents of various kinds and sweet fragrance of sandal were enjoyed by the spirit and the melodies of flutes were heard, while it proceeded onward. On crossing this plane, the spirit entity reached the outpost of Sat Lok, where melodious sounds or "Sat Sat" and "Haq Haq" were heard coming out of the Bin'. On hearing this, the spirit penetrated further rapturously.

There rose to view silver and golden streams full of nectar, and vast gardens, each tree there of being one crore-Yojans in height. Crores of suns and moons hang from them as flowers and fruits. Innumerable spirits and Hansas sing, chatter and play on those reel like birds. The wondrous beauty of this region 1s ineffable. While enjoying it, the spirit entered Sat and came into the presence of Sat Purush.

Now as regards the glory of the person of Sat Purush, each hair of His is so brilliant that crores of suns and moons look pale in comparison. When such is the refulgence of each hair, how is it possible to describe the glory of all His hair, and where are the words to describe the beauty and glory of His entire person ? How can one describe His eyes, nose, ears, face, hands and feet ? They are all nothing but refulgence ; even to describe them as oceans of refulgence does not give even he remotest idea.

The expanse of Sat Lok is one padam Palang, a palang being equal to Triloki in vastness. Hence it is -difficult to imagine the stupendous vastness of Sat Lok. here dwell spirit entities called Hansas who enjoy the Darshan of Sat Purush, hear the music of the Bin and -partake of ambrosial food.

After witnessing the glory of this region, the spirit proceeded to Alakh Lok and got Darshan of Alakh -Purush. The expanse of this region is one sankh, and each hair of Alakh Purush has the effulgence of arab kharab suns.

Thereafter the spirit entity went on and attained gam Lok, which is Maha Sankh Palang in expanse and the magnitude of the person of Again Purush equals crore Sankhs. The forms of Hansas of this region are amazingly wondrous, and the state of ecstasy and bliss that obtains there passes description. The spirit entity sojourned there for a long time and, on going beyond, it got the Darshan of Radhasoami, that is, Anami Purush, and merged in Him. Radhasoami Dham is boundless, infinite, endless and immeasurable. It is the fm ma Nij Sthan, the special resting place of Sants. (Fagirs). That region is the Ultima Thule of all Sants and all speech and description end here. I also conclude here..

So great and exalted is the status of Sants (Fagirs). Hence, how can the followers of all those who stopped at the very first stage, calling it limitless and boundless,. be convinced of the existence of these higher regions ?

No one but Sants and perfect Faqirs knows them. Only those who have met Sants and Fagirs can be convinced about the existence of these regions, provided that they have faith in Their words. Neither the Prophet nor, Vyas and Vashishtha knew of these regions. Hence no Hindu or Muslim can believe in their existence.

It is, not desirable to tell them about this, because they are fettered by the teachings of the Prophet and Quran, and. Hindus are slaves of Vyas, Vashishtha and the Vedas. They cannot even tolerate hearing these words.

As such,. communication of this revelation will do good only to those persons who have faith and belief in the words of Sants and who accept that the status of Sants is exalted above all and that Sants are, in fact, the creators of Khuda and Parmeshwar (God). For this reason, this secret should not be divulged to any one until and unless faith and conviction have been ascertained as conforming to what has been stated .

A petrol attendant who owned a cat, was filling a customer's car with fuel when some spilled onto the floor and into the cat's milk pot which was right below. The cat drank it up in a moment, thinking it is milk, just a little strange tasting.
The cat felt a strange, then starting running around the yard at 60 mph for about five minutes. Then it stopped dead.

“Is it dead” asked the customer, looking worried.
“No” said the petrol attendant, “I think it has just ran out of petrol”.

The attendant's life is all about petrol. So the cat must have ran out of petrol too.
That is how conditioning works. Everything is seen through the filters of the mind. And the way you see it, appears to be the truth.

So Jim has lost the ability to think clearly - that is the reason why he insists that there is form in Sach khand but does not see that in making that statement he is also signing up for TIME and SPACE.

You cannot have one without the other.

Goku does the same. He makes statements without realising what he is saying, yet he is convinced it is all true.

There is something I'd like to address. Time and space aren't essential for the existence of form.
The form the human mind knows is 4 dimensional( Length, breadth, height and time).
Now, using physics we have given concepts of more than 11 dimensions. Most are length and time based, but there are dimensions not based on them.
So, when we are using a tool infinitely better than the mind; and taking all of the existence in consideration, is it right to talk about 4 dimensional forms?
Each universe in the Multiverse has different laws of physics.
And there is no physics when we talk of spiritual dimensions. They are far beyond the dimensions of mind. Every universe kind of falls under the category of physical dimensions.
If a realm has been claimed to be beyond mind, how wise is to childishly talk about it in terms of physics?

Quote Osho Robbins : “… I went through a painful experience which triggered the ONENESS and suddenly it all became instantly clear. In that moment – all my previous identity disappeared and I became nothing. I dropped all connection to the old me – it was like it was someone else. …”


Dear Osho Robbins,

First of all, I have just now emailed Brian requesting him to delete those last two comments of mine, like I’d promised you I would.

Second of all, my apologies for that somewhat trenchant tone of those two comments of mine. I hadn’t wanted to get confrontational, but I could see no other way of getting something solid from you, something more concrete than all that theoretical faff (and I could sense that there was indeed something solid to be had from you).

Those two short sentences of yours are, to me, the distilled essence of your whole spiritual journey. The rest is easily reproducible theory. Of course even those two sentences don’t actually validate or prove your experience, how could they? But I hadn’t asked for validation at all, or proof, all I’d asked for was simple clear jargon-free explication. Which is exactly what those two sentences are. I see no reason to disbelieve what you, or what anyone else, is saying here : and this is you, the person, talking here, talking of your own experience and sensations, as opposed to you quoting theory and/or intellectual opinion.

Thanks much for that last comment of yours, and if you will allow me, I’d like to probe those two brief sentences of yours just a bit more. Perhaps you could quote the questions I’m asking below, each of them, one by one, in full and without leaving any part of my questions out, and answer each of them in turn, one by one by one, just like I’m quoting your comment here? That’s standard chat-forum deconstruction/response format, and you do use it yourself at times when replying to RSSB-ite comments. That way you won’t inadvertently leave out anything I’m asking in this particular comment of mine. .For your convenience, I’m putting all of my questions, for which I’m requesting answers from you, in bold. Apart from this particular paragraph, whatever you see in bold, just copy the whole portion, one portion at a time, and answer them in your own words. I’ve tried to qualify each question in some detail, to make clear what exactly I’m asking.

Quote Osho Robbins : “… I went through a painful experience which triggered the ONENESS …”

Would you talk, please, of (a) that experience, and (b) what led to it?

I fully understand your oft-stated point of view that both the process and the experience itself were ultimately irrelevant ; nevertheless, if you have no objection, I’d like to know about them please. I’m interested in knowing about that situation you referred to in your comment addressed to Manjit, as well as the five-day workshop you mention there. I fully respect any desire for privacy you may have (after all I’m posting anonymously myself!), so please feel free to mask any details that you don’t want to make public when you relate the process and describe that experience.

And just to clarify : I’m referring, at this time, to that single specific experience that you say triggered your realization of Oneness, and not any other experiences (including RSSB experiences) that you may have had before that or after that one pivotal experience.

Quote Osho Robbins : “…suddenly it all became instantly clear. In that moment – all my previous identity disappeared and I became nothing. I dropped all connection to the old me – it was like it was someone else …”

Lovely! Beautiful! Thanks for sharing this. Can you elaborate this please, in some more detail? I fully understand that this is the point where words start getting inadequate, no need to discuss or even mention that linguistic inadequacy again. Also let’s not discuss, not at this time, how the Zen paradigm or the Advaita paradigm or the Totapuri paradigm relate to this. Just tell me, please, in as much detail as you can (and in as much detail as you feel comfortable making public), in your own words, what it was you felt and saw in that instant. Just let yourself go, will you, and talk, man! Don’t worry about whether it makes sense, as long as it is in your own words and relates to your own self at that point. I’m all ears, eager to listen.

What became clear? What did this “became nothing” feel like? This new you that seemed to emerge : how exactly (in your subjective estimate) was/is this new you different from the old you? And has the old you been obliterated forever, and has that new you remained since then, constantly?

.

Third question : You seem convinced that realization happens in spite of any effort or meditation et cetera. What leads you to that opinion? Yes, it’s happened to you, so it’s personal, I agree : nevertheless, what makes you think that the realization that happened to you did not have anything to do with the efforts/meditation you put in? Answer that, please, without invoking established systems like Zen or Advaita or Vivekananda or what-have-you : it is *your* thoughts I want to hear.

.

Fourth question : Have you met any other “enlightened” people, people who’ve had bona fide Oneness realization? How does one tell? Okay, in a bit more detail, a bit more specific : Can a realized person tell if another person he sees is actually realized too? And : Of all the enlightened people you personally know, is there any commonality that they, to your knowledge, share?

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Fifth question : You seem to think that realization happens in spite of any effort put in for it. But it is a fact that NOT EVERYBODY has this realization experience. What, in your view, sets apart those to whom this realization happens, from those to whom realization doesn’t happen? Or to put it differently : Why does realization happen to Individual A, while it does not happen to Individuals B, C, D, E and F? Why do you think it happened to you, but did not happen to, say, your wife, or your father, or your mother, or your friends, or to your work colleagues? (Here I am expressly asking for your opinion and your thoughts, but again, in your own words please, and without referring to Zen or Advaita or Totapuri or whatever!)

.

Last question: In sum, has this realization of oneness been of any real use to you, in a strictly utilitarian sense? Is there any reason why someone should actively seek out realization? Does realization do anyone any good at all : are the realized, when dead, any less dead (or any more dead) than the not-realized? Why would anyone want to go to the trouble to seek out realization, why would anyone want to spend even an hour of their life in trying to realize oneness? (And once again, please don’t say that since the self doesn’t remain, there is no remaining to make use of anything. No theory, no doctrinaire explanation, please. *You*, Osho Robbins, are very much there at this time, whoever or whatever “you” might be, thinking things and typing at your computer or your smartphone. I’m asking whether this you, who’s reading this comment of mine, has benefited in way from going through the realization and the dropping away of the ego in the realization episode, and to describe such benefit/s. … And a brief “No, it has been no use to me to the best of my knowledge” is a perfectly acceptable answer, if that happens to be the case.)


---

Your experiences and realization and your thoughts are precious, and they are your own. (Not just yours alone and you alone, this applies to everybody.) I recognize this, and I say this now because I’ve been sending all these questions your way, and apparently *demanding* answers from you. I’m not, actually, I’m simply asking. You say what you say here at your own pleasure, as do I. But I do hope you’ll take the effort to answer fully, since I see no other way of your conveying to me what you’re at, and conveying your realization of Oneness is presumably why you’re here commenting about Oneness in the first place, right? I’m very grateful for your sharing what you’ve already posted here thus far, and look forward to your response.


With best wishes,
“Appreciative Reader”.


.

MANJIT, that was a lovely post. I absolutely enjoyed going through it. Thanks much for taking the time and effort.

Taking all you say at face value (no reason why I wouldn’t ; and there’s no point discussing on here at all if I’m not prepared to do that!) -- taking you comments at face value, I’m very VERY impressed. Yes, I know you don’t seem impressed yourself with what you’ve been through, but that was my first reaction.

To have had such clear focus when so very young, and to have actually had such experiences at such an early age, surely you see how unusual that is? Those are the kinds of things you read about in hagiographies of saints! As you say, you are indeed “odd” ! :-) One is tempted to use the word ‘blest’, except you yourself don’t seem convinced this is necessarily a blessing.

A question here, if I may : Have you any ideas, speculation even, about the reason for this “oddity” of yours? Why is it, do you think, that you’re so different, in this respect, from others?

Your specific experiences, as you describe them, are mind-blowing! They make riveting reading. You haven’t actually been initiated in RSSB, you say : but have you had any kind of spiritual guidance at all, early on, perhaps in those western mystic system you refer to, or in some Gurdjeff-like practice in controlling dreams and inducing lucid dreaming, or even (since you’ve seen visions of Gurinder Singh) informally in RSSB-type practice (despite not having been initiated formally)? Or has it all been wholly spontaneous, so to say? It’s actually very fascinating, sitting here and having a conversation with someone who’s actually been through all of this (rather than reading this in some long-dead seer’s hagiography), and having them directly explain their wondrous experiences to me.

Drugs don’t seem to have played an important role in your quest/path/whatever. I’d been half-expecting a Carlos Castaneda-esque account from you, but this was nothing like that, at all.

That’s a fascinating idea you present, that perhaps certain types of meditation might release chemicals within the brain, which might in turn lead to the meditational experiences. (I must dig around a bit, “research” if you will using the Google-machine, about these chemicals you mention, especially ones that might perhaps be produced by the body itself.) This, if true, is surely something that can be objectively, scientifically validated? This could end up providing a much-needed bridge between subjective intuition and objective empiricism.

David Lane’s Neural Surfer and Radhasoamistudies sites are often mentioned in Brian’s blog, sometimes in his main articles and more often in the Comments section. I think I must go check those out when I have a bit more time than I do right now. I’ll be sure to look for your accounts there. You post as “Manjit” there, right, or do you use some pseudonym over there?

Incidentally, your account of your realization on meeting with Osho Robbins I read with great interest. One doesn’t look for proof or validation in forums like this, only lucid explication, nevertheless your account does provide a validation of sorts for Osho Robbins’s narrative as well!

This particular experience of yours, that you’ve had when speaking with Osho Robbins (that sounds so very Shams-Tabrizi-ish, incidentally, that account of yours!), since this is what led you to a realization of Oneness : would you talk a bit more about this specific experience? I ask because this would seem to be pivotal (if, that is, you agree that realizing Oneness was indeed pivotal for you).

I enjoyed your critique of One Initiated’s experiences as well, although I’m not very sure I agree with this approach : I mean if One Initiated, or Jim Sutherland for that matter, experience things in a certain way, and then choose to interpret them in a certain way, then surely that is their business? I’m not sure it’s very good form to force your own interpretation down their throats! I mean if they’d themselves asked for your views, then that’d be a whole different matter, in that case you’d actually be doing them a favor by sharing your thoughts with them ; but as it is, given that they *don’t* seem to want to know your views at all …? Isn’t that how all religious conflicts start, by people trying to prescribe how other people ought to think and behave?

Nevertheless, that’s between them and you, and nothing at all to do with me really. And of course that post of yours was addressed to me after all, not to OI, so perhaps all that’s moot in any case. I myself enjoyed going through your interpretation of his experiences, and found it instructive.

Incidentally, with your wide reading you’re no doubt aware that Kumbhaka is an integral part of Hatha Yoga, albeit a very ‘advanced’ part. One comes across this practice in books on Yoga, and I remember reading a century-old account of it in one of Paul Brunton’s books, I forget which one specifically. (Although I remember Paul Brunton, despite his Indophilia -- rare in those colonial times -- seemed to see in it something devilish, for some reason. But that’s neither here nor there.) Some actually go physically slicing away up there, gradually, to bring that about, Kumbhaka I mean ; and I’ve actually read books (I remember one specific book published by the Munger school) that guide you on how to do that slicing. They too (like your account) talk of Kumbhaka resulting in nectar dripping down your throat (or something like that). Sounds perfectly ghastly, that slicing-mutilating part, although for all I know it might work.

As for it “working”, whatever that might mean : I wonder if you could answer something for me, something I’d asked Osho Robbins as well, earlier on. Would you say your Oneness experience has been of any real use to you? In what way? Your other experiences you didn’t really seem to have control on, and for you they were a part of your life throughout. I don’t suppose you can really evaluate those, since they’ve always been so integral to you. Yet your experience of Oneness, that came when you were an adult. You recognize your experience of Oneness as something distinct from your other experiences. (I’ve already requested you, earlier, to describe that session and that realization.) Anyway, what I’m asking here is, if that Oneness realization has been of any real *use* to you?

Reason I ask is this : If these experiences have been basically running up and biting you in the backside, so to say, as with you, then I don’t suppose you can do anything other than take them as they come and deal with them as best you can. But for Joe Everyman to whom all of this is wholly alien, is there any reason at all why he/we should want to share in this, want to actively seek it out? Focusing for now specifically on your Oneness experience : do you find you are in any way better off for it? Is there any reason for anyone to spend any time at all, even one single hour of their life, in quest of this Oneness? (I think you understand what I’m trying to ask, not very coherently perhaps. Explain, would you, in your own way?)

.

I think you’re truly blest, Manjit. (Okay, there, I’ve used the b-word!) Your experiences and your life-journey has been amazing! I’ll look forward to reading to your response to my specific questions, and to anything further you may want to add to what you’ve written here. It’s a really fascinating account! And I’ll definitely check out those sites of David Lane’s one of these days (I’d been meaning to anyway, since some time, only I never got seem to have got round to it), and I’ll look for the journal that you say you’ve posted there.

Thanks again for sharing all of this here. Good luck going ahead : you do seem to have far broader potential open before you than most of us (although who knows, perhaps we too might, God willing, find some way to share in some small way in all of that?).

.


Jim Sutherland, thanks for that clarification. I stand corrected. It was indeed Osho Robbins who’d mentioned Thakar Sing’s Radiant Form, not you, and so I have no cause to hold you to it or to conclusions that might follow from such a thing happening. Also, I appreciate how you accept without prevaricating that, should such a thing actually have happened, then that would mean there is more than one GIHF extant at the same time.

Incidentally, I do know what a spin might be, in this context. I was only wondering if you were actually using it to describe my questioning, and if so why. I hope I haven’t given you reason to apprehend any such thing from me?

As I just said in this very comment, you yourself have most certainly been very forthcoming with wholly spin-less responses, at least to me. Absolutely head-on, absolutely straightforward. I’ve never suggested otherwise, ever.

It’s been a real pleasure to read of your RSSB-led experiences, and One Initiated’s as well. One can draw a great deal of inspiration from these accounts. I know I do.

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=
We don't need All these words when we apply SOLOPISM , Solipsism
That makes it so simple
and lovely
777
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Jim Sutherland writes:
“Osho Robbins, your imagination about Anami Pad, where you certainly have never had even a minute glimpse of, is running wild!”

Osho: I agree – I have never been to Anami Pad. Because it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for such a place to exist and I will prove it in this response.

Jim wries:
“Swamiji witnessed seeing " Hansas" in Sat Lok, where he must have been allowed to visit.”

Osho:
Have YOU ever seen a hansa? If so, can you describe it?

Jim writes:
“Carefully study Swamiji's full description of the " Regions" you keep saying don't exist, and that Gurinder Singh said ( according to you ) don't exist.”

Osho:
First of all, it is not according to me. There is now plenty of evidence that it is not just I that is making those statements. The only people who doubt this are those who are simply too stuck in the dogma of sant mat and cannot accept it is posssible for Gurinder to make those statements.
I have studied the descriptions many times – it doesn't make it real just because it is written about. And please understand I am not saying that YOU or some people cannot experience Anami Pad or any other region. Definitely the regions can be experienced and you are the proof because you openly claim to go there every day.
I am not refuting your claim and I am not calling you a liar. What I am saying is something else. Let me explain it step by step.
(1) Swami Ji claims to have seen hansas in Sat Lok (the purely spiritual region). You claim to have been to Anami Pad, and must have seen either Anami Purush or other beings there and perhaps even hansas.
(2) It is clear from this that in Sat Lok there are FORMS, and beings (hansas at least).
So that means there is TIME and SPACE in Sat Lok.
Goku in a comment says that “Time and space aren't essential for the existence of form.” Then he quotes the latest string theory and 11 dimensions of space. I won't go into that.
Let's just keep this simple. FORM cannot exist if there is no SPACE and TIME.
So TIME and SPACE exist in Sat Lok.
Which means Sat Lok is perishable – because EVERYTHING within time and space is perishable.
Everything within time and space is part of MAYA and DUALITY. It changes and ends.
So it can't be Sat lok or Anami Pad because those are without TIME and SPACE.

Jim writes:
“Scroll down to Sat Lok and see that " Hansas " exist there. So, FORM of some kind, obviously exists there, in Time and Space, where RADHASOAMI dwells.”

Osho: form exists there in TIME and SPACE. Well that much is clear. Let's take it from there.
EVERYTHING witjhin TIME and SPACE – without exception is MAYA, ILLUSION and subject to change. That means DEATH also exists there. How do I know? Because everything within time and space is perishable and subject to death.
So – this CANNOT be the true Sat Lok because that is claimed to be eternal.

Jim (from sar bachan):
“On crossing this plane, the spirit entity reached the outpost of Sat Lok, where melodious sounds or "Sat Sat" and "Haq Haq" were heard coming out of the Bin'. On hearing this, the spirit penetrated further rapturously. There rose to view silver and golden streams full of nectar, and vast gardens, each tree there of being one crore-Yojans in height. Crores of suns and moons hang from them as flowers and fruits. Innumerable spirits and Hansas sing, chatter and play on those reel like birds. The wondrous beauty of this region 1s ineffable. While enjoying it, the spirit entered Sat and came into the presence of Sat Purush.
The expanse of Sat Lok is one padam Palang, a palang being equal to Triloki in vastness. Hence it is -difficult to imagine the stupendous vastness of Sat Lok. here dwell spirit entities called Hansas who enjoy the Darshan of Sat Purush, hear the music of the Bin and -partake of ambrosial food.”

Osho:
Well that is pretty detailed and leaves no doubt that TIME and SPACE both exist there as there are very clear references to both. This is very clearly duality. There is no reference to ONENESS or the VOID. Clearly when souls arrive there, they DO recognize each other and remain separate. They also HEAR and SEE and ENJOY.
This means DUALITY.

Jim (quoting The Hidayatnama) continues:-
“Thereafter the spirit entity went on and attained gam Lok, which is Maha Sankh Palang in expanse and the magnitude of the person of Again Purush equals crore Sankhs. The forms of Hansas of this region are amazingly wondrous, and the state of ecstasy and bliss that obtains there passes description. The spirit entity sojourned there for a long time and, on going beyond, it got the Darshan of Radhasoami, that is, Anami Purush, and merged in Him. Radhasoami Dham is boundless, infinite, endless and immeasurable. It is the fm ma Nij Sthan, the special resting place of Sants. (Fagirs). That region is the Ultima Thule of all Sants and all speech and description end here. I also conclude here.”

Osho: Sat Lok clearly has time and space according to this description.
So is perishable and unreal as is everything within time and space.
The only thing that is eternal is that which is OUTSIDE of time and space.
The above states: “and merged in Him” - so clearly there is a process of merging which happens in time and space.
I remember a question being asked of Swami Ji, that if I merge, what guarantee do I have that Sat purush will not separate me again. The reply is simply “don't worry, it wont happen again”
All this is duality. The very questions being asked as duality questions. They are being asked as if there is a mind there.

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