« We humans think we're special. What makes us believe that? | Main | Stop talking to God... and other imaginary friends »

November 01, 2013

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Time to get over being hoodwinked?

It has to do with property?

Look, Akbar the Mughal emperor gifted the golden temple property to Bibi Bhani Ji, daughter of the 3rd guru...and she married the Guru Ram Das, the fourth guru....after that property was acquired it appears that the gurus thereafter were related. Coincidence? Maybe somebody who knows more about the Sikh gurus can add to this observation, or correct it, if need be.

As big chief once said 'sound like heap'm bull - attack!'

Those questions are not that hard to answer. I can think of many harder questions.
First let me give my versions of the answer.
(1) It has nothing to do with a will. The master decides who will be the successor and a will may simply be used to stop other ‘fake’ gurus claiming to be the nominated successor. However after Sawan singh this does not seem to have worked because Kirpal was one successor, Baba Teja Singh (Saidpur) was another. And there were probably more. However, the will served to keep the property of the Dera with Jagat singh and Charan singh.
(2) Well no, because it has not always been the case. Jaimal and Sawan were not grewals. Nor was Jagat. However it could be argued that the most worthy just happened to be a close family member. Sant mat teachings state that the guru will nominate the most worthy and one who has attained to Sach khand. If this is not a family member, then the gaddi should be given to whoever is worthy. However, personal interest and greed may take over in place of truth. This is how the mahabharat starts. It states that king Bharat did not find any of his 12 sons to be worthy to be the next king, so he chose an outsider. Remember this is about being a king. Spirituality should be far less materialistic. Even as a king, King Bharat chose the most worthy because that in one of the duties of a king: to appoint the most worthy successor as the next king. In the same way, it is the duty of a departing master to appoint the most worthy and spiritually advanced to be the successor. If he does not do this, then that master has given in to greed which has taken priority over truth.
(3) Easy one. Gullibility of the followers. I love multiple choice.
(4) No no, nothing to do with bullshit stories. Can be anywhere , but head office of radha soami happens to be in Punjab, so that’s where it will remain. Didn’t jaimal tell sawan that if he continues to build there – he would get bound? Now Radha Soami is becoming a well established religion – the same as any other. They have their own teachings. Muslims pray 5 times; Sikhs recite scriptures; radha soamis repeat 5 holy names. Can you see the pattern here? All believe blindly that their path is the REAL TRUTH and the only way.

God is said to be manifested in the form of Sri Gary Olsen born in Minnesota, USA according to his website:

http://www.masterpath.org

Sri Gary claims to have been initiated by Charan Singh of the RSSB Radhasoami/Sant Mat lineage but apparently has no blood relation to the RSSB gurus.

The website says Sri Gary,

"Entered this life as a Swateh Saint, a self-luminous soul whose mission is to represent the Sound in a new era, culture and geographical location."

This "Swateh Saint" status, I guess, is really special and exalted which may explain why Sri Gary charges $30 per month while RSSB is still free (last time I checked).

So, I hope this addresses at least a few of Sukhbir Singh's issues?

Wow, love the conversations and looking to learn something here. Thanks Osho Robbins and Tucson, you did provide some food for thought.

I now realise that my questions, and actually any questions about Sant Mat, will never make any sense unless it is viewed within the closed-circuit of Sant Mat itself. You see, these questions actually assumed the points of Sant Satguru to be true in the first place. Therefore the answers that were provided could be provided in the way that they were.

What is actually the main point was to look at the fact that all claims of Sant Mat are just empty claims. There is actually no evidence and can be no true way of assessing the claims of Sant Mat. During the Naam Daan process whatever is drilled into the hopefuls who are elated by their selection to get Naam will be the basis for their hallucination (the regions, their sounds, and their respective coloured lights).

I now see that these questions are actually meaningless questions which are in themselves faulty because they are actually setting themselves up for reinforcing the very claims that they are questioning by giving credence to those principles (Sant Satguru, Satpurush, Kaal) as realities.

Sant Mat literature is filled with circular logic as is any other religious system. Questioning outside the system to the supposed 'guru' within the context of a Satsang with close-minded followers will not get anything out of the 'guru' nor their followers other than a mild laugh.

I guess there is no true way to expose Sant Mat to those who are currently within the system itself. Facts won't do it, force won't do it, slandering won't do it. I guess nothing will do it until they see it for themselves.

Some clear facts:

@ Osho Robbins: Sawan Singh was a Grewal. That's where the Grewal line started. He's Charan Singh's paternal grandfather. And it might just be a coincidence, but I don't think there's room for any coincidence. Sawan Singh's lawyer just happens to be a first cousin of Sawan's successor Jagat Singh.

@Tucson: The mention of Harold Klemp is actually pertinent since he was one of the founders of another Sant Mat path and set himself up as a master and they have followers who can "swear by his powers". Eckankar did the same. They have followers who swear by it because they have seen their masters in their meditations. One of these masters, Fubbi Quantz, is actually from the Planet Venus! I guess people can fool themselves into anything they actually want to. Heck, Christians "see" Jesus Christ, Sikhs "see" Nanak or Ram Das or Gobind Singh, so why can't these guys "see" their master from Venus! It's all fair game.

What's my point in all this? I really don't know.. haha.. If anyone can make anything out of my ramblings, feel free to do so.

Perhaps, the gist of all this is in just one sentence in Sukhbir Singh's comment above:

"People can (and will continue to - my insert) fool themselves into anything they actually want to."

A corollary that could be inferred from the above might well be that people should continue to have a "sense of doubt" and "a spirit of inquiry" about anything that does not make sense to them.

1. They are special, magic lawyers. Jokes aside, having as little pomp and ceremony around the procedure just highlights how detached they are from the tedious legal procedures of the material realm.

2. Sat Purush incarnates into EVERYONE. A small handful of those people are awake in the spiritual sense.

3. Variety is the spice of life. I quite like it to be honest, it's like free market capitalism for spiritual seekers. If you don't like your current guru feel free to try another one, RESULTS GUARANTEED!

4. See answer number 2.

Peace out, bruv.

Sukhbir Singh,
You wrote: I now realise that my questions, and actually any questions about Sant Mat, will never make any sense unless it is viewed within the closed-circuit of Sant Mat itself.
Well discovered. Most people never realise this simple truth: That they are living in a world of their own creation which is created by their beliefs. And because they beliefs are never questioned - the world appears to be the REAL WORLD. When in fact it is a fictional world created by their own beliefs and assumptions.
You then wrote: All claims of Sant Mat are just empty claims. There is actually no evidence for the claims of Sant Mat. I now see that these questions are actually meaningless questions which are in themselves faulty because they are actually setting themselves up for reinforcing the very claims that they are questioning by giving credence to those principles (Sant Satguru, Satpurush, Kaal) as realities. Sant Mat literature is filled with circular logic as is any other religious system. Questioning outside the system to the supposed 'guru' within the context of a Satsang with close-minded followers will not get anything out of the 'guru' nor their followers other than a mild laugh.
Sukhbir Singh, you are absolutely right, but it takes something to happen before a person can ever see this. The ‘believers’ will never see it because they cannot face the possibility that their path might not be the ‘truth’. Every religion has absurd beliefs which everyone can see except the believers. Sant mat and Radha Soami is clearly just another religion. It has it’s own set of beliefs and ‘special techniques’.
The followers interpret scriptures to ‘fit in’ to their beliefs and to confirm them. I have spoken to GSD many times over the mic - putting my point of view over that sant mat type meditation cannot lead to enlightenment simply because the ‘doer’ (i.e. the ego) is strengthened through meditation (or any other practice) - and therefore that practice becomes food for the ego. I often quoted a scripture which said “As long as man considers himself to be the doer, he cannot find any peace..” His response is that I am taking the scripture out of context. However, the truth is that Radha Soami takes scriptures out of context to make the followers believe that it’s all about SHABD, NAAM and meditation. In fact the scriptures speak a lot more about ‘realization’ and that is why a guru is needed - not just to give you five holy names and tell you to get on your way.
You then wrote: I guess there is no true way to expose Sant Mat to those who are currently within the system itself. Facts won't do it, force won't do it, slandering won't do it. I guess nothing will do it until they see it for themselves.
Again - absolutely right. Those who are followers really believe they have found the ONE true path. The only way anyone ever gets free is when they realise the absurdity of their own beliefs. So typically a Radha soami will laugh at a sikh, saying how absurd to think that simply by reciting scriptures - he can get to God; But cannot see how absurd it is to think that by repeating five names the RS follower will get to God.
So in conclusion: To the Radha Soami follower - this appears to be the truth. There really is a Sat Purush, and the Guru is the Beloved of Sat Purush. When I used to be a national speaker for Radha Soami, I used the satsangs to get people to wake up to truth - rather than to follow blindly. Listen to this satsang I gave at Birmingham in the UK. This is the youtube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8zs
Finally, yes - Sawan was a Grewal being Charan Singh’s paternal grandfather. There is also the possibility that the will was not real because Kirpal claimed it was fake and created for the property to remain in the family. This is quite possible because how does someone hand over so much property to someone who is not a family member simply because they are the most spiritually advanced. Once property becomes mixed up with spirituality - this is what happens. Court cases are fought over property. Incidentally apparently Babani Ji was also disillusioned with radha Soami because it seemed all about taking people’s property without and concern for the poor. Babani was asked to drop a court case before he could have an audience with Baba Ji. If this is true - then it is simply a mis-use of power. The full details are in another blog on this site. I am not aware of the full details.

Hi Osho,

Somewhere, somehow I got the impression that Sawan Singh was suffering from senility (dementia) in his later years. I do not know if this is true. Do you?

I remember one or two photos where he looks a bit strange in his expression as if he were not quite "all there". Some would attribute this look to some kind of divine state, as I once did, but now I question that point of view.

If he was in some way mentally impaired I wonder how this would affect the validity of his will. There is even the opinion that Dr. Pierre Schmidt, his attending physician, "assisted" him in signing the will(s). The implication being that Sawan Singh did not fully comprehend what he was doing and needed to be told what to do.

one thing is for sure, Radha Soami has changed completely from it's roots in Agra. Swami Ji was pretty much a recluse who meditated for 17 years. His focus was not riches. Jaimal singh was not concerned with riches and in fact told sawan that he would get bound if he started to build in Beas. Now, eight years later, Radha Soami is a very different organisation. Back in 1940 it was impossible to imagine a person 'giving satsang' based on theory. Only a master would have given satsang. In fact satsang was the company of a perfect master - not a set of theories. Now Radha Soami is a rich organisation, and the gurus even richer. This is no longer a place where a true spiritual seeker would go. It is full of politics, power seekers and deluded fools who just interpret scriptures to fit the radha soami teachings

any remarks from anyone regarding my comment above on November 5, 7:34 pm?

Osho,

"Every religion has absurd beliefs which everyone can see except the believers."

Very nicely said.

After reading your two comments above, I am a bit confused as to what your current belief is. Could you please clarify by answering the following questions?

1. Do you still believe in Santmat in general, and in Swami Ji's teachings in particular?
2. Do you believe Swami Ji was a REAL guru or GIHF?
3. Do you believe that there really is a Sat Purush, and the REAL Guru is the Beloved of Sat Purush?
4. Do you believe that till the time of Charan, RSSB was more or less in line with Swami Ji's teachings and it was only after GSD took over that they not only changed the teachings (as you have noted in your videos) but started moving away from spirituality and coming closer to money and politics or did the PROCESS OF CHANGE start with Sawan itself?

Avi,
to answer your questions
(1) Sant mat is now a religion, with it's own set of dogmatic beliefs. It is not a valid path to enlightenment. Back in the days, it was not claiming to be a path to enlightenment - but a path to a place called Sach Khand, which was considered a real place where the followers of a perfect master will ultimately go. Now that illusion is pretty much shattered - which of course begs the question: What were all the satsangis from 1830 - 1995 doing? if they were trying to get to Sach khand - then that information (that Sach khand is just a concept - not a place you really go to) would have been very useful and saved them years of seeking an illusory place. By the way - plenty of people claimed and probably still claim to have gone to Sach khand and met Sat Purush (including Paul Twitchell - who claims to have met all the lords of each region in his book "The Tiger's Fang"

I do not believe in Sant Mat as put over by RSSB
(2) No
(3) No
(4) RSSB was pretty much in line with Swami Ji's teachings until GSD rightly pointed out that there is no place called Sach Khand and no master is going to turn up at the time of death to take you by the hand to Sach Khand or some other region. (Why? because these are duality teachings and duality is an illusion).
The Money is a separate issue. GSD happens to be a businessman and so he says wealth has no conflict with spirituality - which I actually agree with. You dont have to be poor to be spiritual.
Any spiritual teaching eventually becomes a religion with blind followers once the organisation becomes more important than the founder and what he really taught.

By the way - many people who saw my videos somehow got the idea that I am saying that GSD or the new teachings are a BAD thing. The implication being that because he changed the teachings - he did something incorrect.

In fact the new teachings are closer to the truth - becuase they take away the false sense of security that comes from believing that 'my master' will come and deatht and save me. The Buddha said "there is not external saviour - not even me"

Beliving is Sach khand or that the master will come at death - is like believing in Father christmas or on the tooth fairy. They are fine when you are a child and they serve a purpose - but when you grow up you realise they are not real. Nobody has to tell you - you just become mature enough to realise the obvious.


Tucson,

I have heard pretty much the same. I also believe Kirpal singh pretty much implied the same, although he may have had other motives.

Once thing is clear - property may have had a lot to do with the decision as to who to appoint. Kirpal claims that Sawan said that he has already given the Dera - but that he (Kirpal) should continue with the real spiritual mission. However, even if this was true - it raises some interesting questions.
(1) Why would Sawan give the property to family if he gave the real spiritual mantle to Kirpal? Surely it makes more sense to give the Dera to the person most spiritually qualified? Why would you make it harder to Kirpal to give out his message - if his was the true message? Isn't this really selling out your followers? Letting them follow a false master while the real one struggles set up his own Ashram?
I am just saying it would not be the proper thing to do if you want to help your disciples to prosper spiritually

Sawan may have told Kirpal that he was to be the successor, but certain individuals within Sawan's inner circle got wind of this and did not want Kirpal inheriting the whole thing. So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents. Undeterred by this, Kirpal went on with his duty, whether or not Sawan actually intended it, or it was simply Kirpal's egoic desire to be in the position of guru.

I have no way of knowing any of what I wrote above. It is pure speculation.

Some of Paul Twitchels's writings were verbatim plagiarisms from RSSB books. And other spiritual figures he wrote about such as Fubi Quantz were taken from the writings of another mystic/writer whose name and book titles excape me right now since I delved into this matter long ago and have not given it much thought for decades. THAT writer was also considered by many to be a fraud and therefore Eckankar, Sri Darwin Gross, Sri Gary Olsen and others that sprung from it. Generally, I think, the whole thing is a business/ego/power opportunity, the lure of which cannot be resisted by some to exploit.

I agree with most of Osho's response to Avi above.

The big question. Is there a Sat Purush?

Probably not in the sense that most Satsangis conceive of it. There is, I think, an interconnectedness of all things from here to the farthest galaxies and universes which paradoxically are here also. This interconnectedness may be accessed by superconscious attunement and seen as a stupendous cosmic mandala pattern of grand design by no one. It just is. It is sort of a great flow/procession of energy culminating in splendorous light into infinity. It is a big bang that never began or ended. We are stardust. We are golden. We are IN the garden. No getting back to it.

Man! That was good acid.

Osho says, "Why would Sawan give the property to family if he gave the real spiritual mantle to Kirpal?"
Tucson says, "So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents."

It would have made absolute sense (at least to me) if Sawan were to give the property and even the guru position to Charan directly and not to (or through) Jagat. But, as per my knowledge, neither Jagat nor Kirpal were part of Sawan's family. Are the two of you assuming (or implying) that Jagat was just part of an arrangement (because he was a close confidant) who would eventually handover everything to Charan? And if yes, would that imply that Charan knew all about this all along?
By the way, I myself have always suspected just that and am trying to see if there are others who also think/believe likewise. In fact, to go a step further, I also suspect (and I did express that suspicion in another post earlier) that there could also be some undisclosed arrangement between GSD and Charan's sons in terms of Dera property. Of course, I also have no way of knowing any of what I wrote above. It is just a suspicion.

Thanks, Osho, for answering my questions. I really appreciate that.

"GSD happens to be a businessman and so he says wealth has no conflict with spirituality - which I actually agree with. You dont have to be poor to be spiritual." - Osho That's alright. But the problem is that GSD actually preaches otherwise, at least that is what I heard him saying about 5 years ago when I last attended his satsang in India.

Avi wrote:

"Are the two of you assuming (or implying) that Jagat was just part of an arrangement (because he was a close confidant) who would eventually handover everything to Charan? And if yes, would that imply that Charan knew all about this all along?"

--No one knew when Jagat would die.
As it turned out he died three years after Sawan. But it could have been 10-20 or more years. So, one would assume that they were prepared for Jagat to hold the mantle of Sat Guru indefinitely. This could blow the theory out of the water of wanting to keep the Dera ownership within the family. Charan may not have been part of any original plan but was resorted to when Jagat passed away early.

Again, high speculation on my part, of course.

Personally, I think Charan was truly taken aback by his appointment, as evidenced by his behavior at the time (running away and hiding briefly), and had no foreknowledge of it.

Really loving the discussion the discussion and where it's leading. It does seem however, that some people here think that the while the "gurus" we are discussing are false, they believe the concepts might be real and that it is only a matter of finding out the "most viable and legit candidate who is currently holding the mantle of Sant Mat."

In my view, it is all totally concocted bullshit. Very plainly and very simply. This doesn't speak well for me because from the age of 17-22 I was deeply into reading only Sant Mat literature, praying internally to GSD to give me Naam, and all the usual bullshit of that sort.

To me, all of them are equally fooling either themselves or their followers. Some of them I believe, can be deluding themselves as well, being thoroughly taken for a ride by their belief system.

I mean when, like Kirpal Singh, you start saying something like "Master Sawan made me the successor by sending me the energy through his eyes," you start getting into the wacky zone (unless you are indoctrinated in it and by it and so that statement actually sounds like a legit way for gurus to operate). Kirpal Singh, himself, also used to allegedly say that successorship can't be passed on by wills. And he spent a lot of time criticising the fact that guru-ship can't be held in the family. However, as the time for his death approached, he wrote a will and gave it to his son (Darshan Singh) according to his account. Sant Ajaib Singh didn't agree with this and said Kirpal Singh gave it to him (again "Through the eyes") and that the successorship wasn't legit.

It's just a "he says, they say" game. There is no history of Sant Mat only hagiography in the guise of legitimate history. It's all nonsense from the time of the hookah-smoking Shiv Dayal all the way to the all the current branches of Sant Mat teachings. Taking a ride on the scriptures of the Sikh gurus (which I also believe was not free from this game of keeping it in the family).

I feel it is possible that the delusion is not one-way. The teachers themselves are deluded into believing their predecessors. Somewhere along the line, there was definitely one that was not deluded but carried it on.

Once again, I'm ranting. Can't control it when I start typing all this shit just comes out. Haha.

tucson,

Your arguments do make complete sense to me.

Please correct me if I misunderstood you but, isn't there some sort of contradiction between your earlier comment:

"So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents."

and your last comment:

"This could blow the theory out of the water of wanting to keep the Dera ownership within the family."

More specifically, are you referring to two different things by the phrase "with in the family" in the two comments above?

Avi,
This conversation about Sawan, Jagat and wills is so speculative on my part that I don't even think it is worth addressing any seeming contradictions in my comments. I just don't know. It may be me who is suffering from mental frailty. Beware!

I agree with Sukhbir Singh that the whole RSSB thing is a fraud, bullshit, a con. I could be wrong. It would be cool if I was wrong because as an initiate of Charan Singh I would be destined, at least within 3 more lifetimes, to be escorted under the guidance of the perfect sant sat guru of the time, to dwell on spiritual dweeps inhabited by exhalted hansas, sip nectar from Mansorovar to be washed clean of my karmic load, and ultimately sit in the presence of Sat Purush whose radiance is so bright that one hair on "his" body is equivalent to a million suns. Once this is accomplished, never again would I, this lowly jiva, return via rebirth to this foreign outpost, this gross region of Pind, a filthy cesspool-like dark corner in the cosmic scheme of things. Instead, I will soar on the wings of Shabd to regions incomprehensible, glorious and vast beyond measure.

Somewhere amongst all the gurus directly or remotely associated with the Radha Soami movement there may be one or two who actually had some "power", some kind of esoteric vision or ability to "see" how things are in the grand scheme of things. I think this is possible. Often in great stories there is a basis or element of truth. In such a vision I think God would be pretty bright.. radiant like millions of suns.

Mike Williams, who comments here from time to time, has a website devoted to the history of Radha Soami. In case anyone interested has not seen it:

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/

Sukhbir Singh,

" I was deeply into reading only Sant Mat literature, praying internally to GSD to give me Naam, "

So you weren't granted Naam? Is this the reason for your anger, resentment and looking for fault?

Anyone looking for fault in any organisation will definitely find something. People have many failings. This world looks to me like a disaster area with no hope on the horizon.

As for the question of the reality of a param sant sat guru, who knows? Is there a higher consciousness or awareness? Still worth looking for it imo, instead of playing the blame game.

DaisyDuke
Interesting insight into the similar issues back in the days of Sikh Gurus. 3rd Guru's daughter married the 4th Guru, and the Golden Temple was gifted to the Gurus's back then...HMMMMMMMM

"This world looks to me like a disaster area with no hope on the horizon."

I don't think so.

No doubt that there is a lot of suffering but, IMO, the world can indeed be made a better place to live. I believe that every one of us can and should continue to do our bit in trying to improve the situation in our own unique ways. For example: rather than making any donations to big organizations - religious or non-profit, I started, a few years back, helping a couple of deserving poor children directly by paying for the cost of their education. I feel good about it when I see the impact, howsoever small it may be.

Occasionally, I visit the local Hindu temple here in the USA. I have observed that there are quite a few people who donate $500-$1000 every month to the temple. Most of this money goes either in making unnecessary improvements in the temple building or paying salary for the two temple priests both of whom live in big houses and drive luxury cars. I sometimes think $500 per month can easily pay for the education of 25 poor children in India.

Overall, the world is a beautiful place but the beauty also lies in the eyes of the beholder.

@ just me - Naam is granted at the age of 25. So no matter how much I wanted it at that time, it was not going to happen. Anger is not a feeling that I had in regards to that. The attitude was more like "everything in its own time" and "if it's meant to be will happen".

So the plain answer is that my position is not coming from anger and there is nothing to blame. I just did further research and started seeing all of the inconsistencies that any person who has not been indoctrinated into the conditioning and using the circular logic via Sant Mat literature would see. And then as I grew up I started seeing that this is not the path for me. I then explored many more paths (not superficially, but really got into it). Started seeing the same thing.

So, no, I am not operating from the position of finding a fault with Sant Mat. I'm just stating the glaringly obvious inconsistencies if you don't have the "lens of the indoctrinated" on.

You can go ahead and look for higher consciousness if you want. I'm not saying it doesn't exist with full certainty. What I can say with full certainty is that Sant Mat in RSSB does not have it.

Tucson:
I like so much the way your mind travels : what you say is always superb reading and I thank you.
By coincidence I will be in Bangkok at the time of GSD's visit. I may or may not attend.
Elizabeth W

Sukhbir,

I loved reading your comment. Wonderful articulation!

"I'm just stating the glaringly obvious inconsistencies if you don't have the "lens of the indoctrinated" on."

Some see the world as a beautiful place, some see through the lens of indoctrination while others use reason and logic to make sense of the world. When some wake up to the programming and conditioning and the illusionary aspect of the world they see a prison planet.

To each their own.

Tucson wrote:
“Sawan may have told Kirpal that he was to be the successor, but certain individuals within Sawan's inner circle got wind of this and did not want Kirpal inheriting the whole thing. So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents. Undeterred by this, Kirpal went on with his duty, whether or not Sawan actually intended it, or it was simply Kirpal's egoic desire to be in the position of guru. I have no way of knowing any of what I wrote above. It is pure speculation.”
Many years ago I met an old satsangi at the dera and he told me it was common knowledge at the time of Sawan Singh that Kirpal was going to be the successor. Sawan was very close to Kirpal and it was strange that towards the end he was told not to come to dera until he was called.
Perhaps this too was some kind of conspiracy to make sure Kirpal was not around while ‘they’ had the will written. While Kirpal Singh claimed to be the true successor, Charan Singh was clearly saying “I ain’t got no clue what the heck is going on here – one thing is for sure, I ain’t no sant sat guru”
See – this is the whole point which RSSB followers don’t get:
Charan Singh clearly said “I have no spiritual progress”. He said he would play the role of guru, since his master had written it in a will. Well according to sant mat teachings – a line of successors comes to an END if there is nobody who has made spiritual progress and goes to Sach Khand. Charan Singh clearly said he has no spiritual progress. That means the line of gurus is over – and they are now FAKE!
There is no allowance for “But he will get to Sach Khand soon.” Or something like “The previous master’s power is transferred to the new master.” As this makes a mockery of the disciples because if even the master did not get there by his own meditation (and was given a BOOST) then what chance has the disciple got? Obvious answer is: no fucking chance.
Avi wrote:
It would have made absolute sense (at least to me) if Sawan were to give the property and even the guru position to Charan directly and not to (or through) Jagat. But, as per my knowledge, neither Jagat nor Kirpal were part of Sawan's family. Are the two of you assuming (or implying) that Jagat was just part of an arrangement (because he was a close confidant) who would eventually handover everything to Charan? And if yes, would that imply that Charan knew all about this all along?


My response:
I do not believe that Charan knew any of this – on the contrary he did not want to become the successor. I believe it was a set-up. Charan Singh was clearly surprised and even then did not want to be the guru. It’s even in his private diary entries. I believe other family members who wanted to make sure the dera remained in the family planned it all. Don’t forget – it was a lot of property – worth a lot of money. It has allowed GSD to become personally wealthy because of the influence of his position. I doubt if he would have been in a position to make some of those business deals if he was not in a position of power as the head of RSSB. Charan Singh himself avoided accumulating too much property at least abroad and was happy simply to give out the teachings.
However, under the leadership of GSD, the intention is for RSSB to become a wealthy and well-established religion (or science of the soul as he likes to call it). It has already become a religion with it’s own established dogmatic beliefs. Like for example that meditation will get you to God.

I have set up a facebook page - so anyone can comment on it and become part of our 'group'.
it is called
www.facebook.com/TruthAboutSantMat

feel free to go there and post any comments
or start new discussions.

in reply to sukhbir singh's comment above (9 nov)

"Kirpal Singh, himself, also used to allegedly say that successorship can't be passed on by wills. And he spent a lot of time criticising the fact that guru-ship can't be held in the family. However, as the time for his death approached, he wrote a will and gave it to his son (Darshan Singh) according to his account. Sant Ajaib Singh didn't agree with this and said Kirpal Singh gave it to him."

It is questionable if Kirpal really wrote a will. The will emerged much later and thakar singh was inhabiting sawan ashram in Delhi.

Kirpal always said "I want many ambassaders" so I really don;t think he left a will.

Also - there was not so much property at stake - compared to Beas. His personal doctor also claimed to be the successor.

It's all an ego-trip and delusion. You can believe anything you want to believe. Visions, Radiant forms, master coming at death - it is all in the realm of mind and the mind can create any reality.

True enlightenment is about the end of seeking - Like the Buddha said "I found nothing".

No time - no Space - No mind - No thing.
No soul to be saved - No Sach Khand - No Sat Purush.

The idea that there is a ME to be saved is the delusion. There is no ME therefore there is no need to save it. The 'soul' is not real - it is an illusion. There is no separate soul and therefore it cannot be saved. The separate self is a delusion created by the mind because we have separate bodies. We start to assume we must have a separate soul too - which is seeking union with the oversoul (God).
Sant mat teachings say that you are a separate soul and by effort (meditation) you have to merge into God. In fact you are not separate. You just need to realise there is no separate person. The deluded sant mat follower wants to make sure the master will come at death and save him. He won't because there is no soul to be saved and there is nowhere for the master to take the soul and there is no master either. All these are duality teachings. Enlightenment is about the ONENESS - which means nothing to do and nowhere to get to.

Go within and ye shall find all answers.
Stay outside, and see only bull

Go within and ye shall find all answers. (that you make up or that others have made up for you and which can't be verified.)

Stay outside, and see only bull

The third option:

Went within, didn't find shit
Came outside and saw the bullshit for what it was.


sageseeker,

The truth is that RS is the same as any other religion. It has no special truth. There is no 'going inside.' It's just another belief system. Read Fakir Chand who states that it is all fiction.
The idea that the master will come at the time of death and save the disciple is the main motivating factor for disciples to follow the RS path.

How many people do you know who will tell you clearly that they have made spiritual progress (whatever that is). Everyone thinks that others have attained and one day they too might get there. Dream on. Even Babani Ji (who devoted many years of his life to Radha Soami) realized in the end it's all about money. No compassion for the poor people who just wanted their rightful property. They had to file a lawsuit to claim what was rightfully theirs (and they had paid for). Is this how a spiritual master who is unattached to money behaves?

How would you feel if you was one of those satsangis who had their property taken from them? RS has become all about money. It is a far cry from it's humble roots. It is totally commercialized now. Even satsangs are conducted by people who have no direct experience of what they are talking about.

When I gave a talk which actually woke people up to the truth and the people who heard it loved it - the politics of sant mat came into play to start the process to ban me from being a speaker. This is not how a real spiritual organisation would behave.
This is the talk I gave that got me banned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8

When "I" gave a talk which actually woke people up to the truth .....

I think this is the fourth or fifth time in the last one month or so that Osho has posted the link to his talk on this blog.

That again proves the point cc made on a related post:

"....... This (blog) makes for a congregation composed of recovering believers (like the founder of this church) and preachers (like Osho) who, unable to draw their own audience, come to this church to prey."
Posted by: cc | November 08, 2013 at 10:36 AM

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2013/11/faith-is-pretending-to-know-things-you-dont-know.html

VVIP, I don't go to any church to PRAY or PREY.

Because I don't need to do either.

I posted the link because I (like Brian) used to be a speaker for RSSB. And I decided I would post the satsang because it was clearly a threat to RSSB - otherwise why ban me? Since it's my talk - I have taken the liberty to post it on youtube.

Doesn't make me a 'preacher' any more than it makes you a preacher for posting the above comment.

You obviously have an issue with what you call 'preaching' and you think it is in some way a 'bad' thing. I would suggest that RSSB is preaching to the world - because it has a dogma and teaching to actually preach. Not that 'preaching' is a 'bad' thing - whether to the choir or anyone else.

I say - preach to your hearts content. In fact I suggest you start preaching too - might take you beyond your issue about 'preaching' since this is the second time you have posted this comment about preaching.

by the way for anyone who has missed them
here are links to some of my youtube
videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8zs

and for good measure - here's a link to an osho video - about confusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggTJCCxFss

Sukhbir Singh.

"Went within, didn't find shit
Came outside and saw the bullshit for what it was."

This is kinda funny. I remember reading Sawan Singh saying that it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle before one even begins to meditate! How many hours did you manage before you decided it was all bs?

just me,

if it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle - then all the followers are screwed - because they are told to meditate for 2.5 hours. That's 30 mins less than it takes the mind to settle.

Holy shit - that means almost nobody is going to make any progress because it's only rare satsangis who find even 2.5 hours to meditate in one sitting.

Anyways - moving briskly on - Baba jaimal singh meditated for 13 years - and tied his hair to a hook to ensure he didn't fall asleep. So that means it was a struggle for him too. So not many people see much inside.

I have personally meditated for long periods. In the days I followed sant mat - I would meditate for a whole weekend or even longer. I saw light, I heard the sound - but now I know it means nothing - all visions are creations of the mind and delusions.

Everything that has a form - comes and goes - is within time and space - and it maya - illusion. This includes all visions and radiant forms you may see 'inside'.

This is also why there cannot be a place called Sach Khand - because there is no 'place' - there is no 'form' and there is no 'time'. and everything you see inside is a figment of your vivid imagination.

Osho,

"if it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle - then all the followers are screwed "

Exactly what I thought when I read it. Somehow it did take the pressure off my efforts. I thought oh well, no use having any expectations then... just do what I can.

When I hear about Buddhist monks sitting in meditation for long periods of time I wonder how they do it. Its amazing.

@ just me,

I'm not sure whether you would count my time in meditation as official meditation since I have never been initiated. However, I did used from seeing other Sant Mat paths that this whole thing must be concocted. During the initiation process, you are told to repeat to yourself over and over again the names that were given. You are also repeating to yourself over and over again the names of the regions, the colors for each region, as well as the sounds in each region. This, to me, is nothing short of brainwashing and indoctrination.

More research into it brought me to my conclusion that you only see what you are told to see because you created it. The emotion of excitement, and the feeling of being blessed, and the massive hypnosis of the huge group that you were being initiated with all add to the power of the imprinting into your psyche.

This is why members of Eckankar see Fubbi Quantz. This is why they see in their meditation a master from Venus. If the members of Eckankar are seeing these masters, who are made up, then what is the proof that the Sant Mat meditation that RSSB is teaching is true?

It is an open question. But due to these observations I came to the conclusion that the methods that RSSB are teaching are completely made up; their complete cosmological system is made up.

@justme

Not all meditation means the same thing. Not all meditation is a struggle.

For example what Osho calls 'meditation' is a completely different process. He says meditation is not concentration.

His meditation is about awareness.

In sant mat meditation is a struggle because they tell you it's a struggle. Sitting there for 2.5 hours repeating the five holy words and listening to the shabd - I mean - it's boring unless you are seeing light or hearing the sound - which is why the disciples desperately want to hear or see something - so they go to GSD and say "Please give me some grace"

Sukbir and Osho,

Thanks for your replies. I agree with much of what you both have to say.

I see a very illusionary world now. The divisions grow more than ever between the spiritual and scientific or materialistic viewpoint.

If it is just the brain, as science says, which creates our so called reality, I am very happy to continue exploring my own individual consciousness by quieting my mind with meditation and doing it without struggle and expectations.

Osho says:

" ..... I saw light, I heard the sound ....."

Very interesting. I am curious to know more.

If possible, could you please describe in words the light you saw and the sound you heard ?

To be specific, for the sound, I am looking for a description which is NOT something like "purer than the purest" and "sweeter than the sweetest". Similarly, for the light, I am looking for a description which is not like "brighter/better than millions of suns shining together".

It's perfectly fine and I will understand that if you describe the experience as "indescribable".

Osho,

I am amazed that you got so upset just by my two comments. As you know, the comment was actually made by cc; I just highlighted it. Don't you think you should rather have responded to cc directly?

Avi is refering to your testimony, "I saw light, I heard the sound...", Osho, not to anything I said.

" ..... I saw light, I heard the sound ....."

----whats the big deal?????? Are you sure a description is better than better, and the best and brightest? My descriptions will always be better than the best.

So,come let me initiate you. Oh, I forgot I charge a $100 initiation fee.

@VVIP,

I addressed my reply to you because I saw your post, and you are the one the one who is counting the number number of times I have posted my links.
Why is that an issue for you?
And by the way, I respond in any way I consider appropriate at the time. I am not upset.

@avi
Seeing light, the body going numb, hearing the sound, seeing the radiant form. It's no big deal. At the time it was, because I was in devotion and I made it mean something.

Of course to many satsangis it is a big deal because they are striving for it. However it is part of phenomena and therefore not real.

Ramakrishna was a devotee of Kali and could manifest her at will (as in - see her in his mind = radiant form). Totapuri, an enlightened master told him that he must go beyond all form including the form of his beloved kali. Ramakrishna killed kali (in his mind) as in "if you meet the buddha on the way - kill him".

Then Ramakrishna attained full samadhi because he reached non-duality wheras before he was in devotion to a personal God.

so seeing light, hearing sound, and all phenomena are all part of the initial stages of spirituality, where the disciple worships a personal God and seeks a spiritual thrill through light, sound, radiant forms etc.

Thank you both Osho and Tucson for responding to my comment.

Osho says:

"I believe other family members who wanted to make sure the dera remained in the family planned it all."

I agree with both Osho and Tucson that the way Charan reacted, after he knew of the successorship having been enthroned to him, provides enough evidence that he had been caught unaware.

I don't remember the exact words used in the the "wills" made by Sawan and Jagat, but I do know that Charan said in his "will" that he was appointing GSD as ordered by his guru (Sawan Singh).

Do you believe that the current guru actually gets "orders" from his guru in choosing his successor or do you think that he makes his own choice? In the latter case, please also answer the following questions:

1. What does "it all" (in Osho's comment above) include? Does that include the transfer of guruship from Sawan to Jagat and subsequently to Charan or only from Jagat to Charan? In the latter case, do you mean the family members couldn't influence Sawan but they could influence Jagat? So, was Jagat more vulnerable than Sawan?

2. Who all could the "other family members" be? Are you referring to Charan's parents and/or his siblings etc.?

3. Any inside knowledge/guesses on why Charan preferred GSD over his own two sons?

@avi

I don't specifically know the answers to all your questions and I suspect nobody does because a lot of it is speculation.

However, here are a few points to note.

1. Charan Singh clearly did not KNOW that he was appointed the next master. Which incidently means he was not 'all knowing' as many followers believe the master knows everything - clearly not the case.

2. Charan Singh did not WANT to be the master - and tried to run away from it. In fact, his diary shows that he was clearly upset at being appointed the master. He only took on the role reluctantly and did not even give satsangs for quite a while. When he did start satsangs they were pretty much rehearsed and all had mostly the same content.

3. Charan Singh did not claim to be spiritually advanced in any way and said he was just fulfilling a role.

so from the above, the following is quite clear:
Charan singh was not a 'sant' in the sant mat sense of the word. He was clearly not all knowing and did not go to Sach Khand, as per the teachings.
This obviously means that the beas line of masters ceased and came to an end because the teachings in Sar Bachan state that only a person who goes to Sach Khand can be appointed a master. It is not that the master gives the mantle to anyone and instantly take them to sach khand - it's not magic.

The teachings state that the disciple who goes to Sach khand is appointed the next successor. If there is nobody then the departing master can give the mantle to someone who goes to the fourth region or third region. Failing that - the second or first region.

So this also begs the question - was there nobody after sawan or jagat who was going to 'sach khand' or even a lower region?

Because if there was - that person must be appointed because it's about who is qualified to take on the role - not who will inherit the property.

In fact once it becomes about property - it has already got to the point where the spirituality has departed - and the real gaddi has gone elsewhere. Obviously if it's about inheriting property, then the priority is money, wealth and property - not spiritual truth.

I think anyone can see that RSSB is now heavily focused on expanding globally through acquiring property and wealth.

Even the people who are sevadars are all about enforcing authority and rules, not about humility, helping others or seva.

The fish rots from the head.

Osho,

I understand that RSSB is acquiring property globally. And, from where I stand - Petaluma for example - it appears that properties are set up for large gatherings when GSD has a publically held program once every 5 years or so. In the meantime, that are used for local satsangs.

If this expansion is primarily to build wealth, I just don't see how RSSB or GSD's family are capitalizing on this wealth unless they sell the property or rent it out.

Now, since the property was purchased via donations, there is a lot of potential monetary gains available once the properties are sold. However, in the meantime and to the best of my knowledge, this ain't happening. Nothing has been sold or rented.

BTW, I enjoyed your satsang very much!

Bob

I think you people are over analysing everything here. It's not really very difficult:

Step 1: Meditate.
Step 2: Become enlightened.

It's not rocket science people! An idiot could follow these steps.

just bob, I guess I'm an idiot, because I don't understand your two steps. Please elaborate:

(1) What kind of meditation am I supposed to do? There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different sorts of meditation approaches. Do I follow Zen meditation, Christian meditation, Hindu, Islamic, Wiccan, Taoist, whatever?

(2) What kind of enlightenment is my goal? There are so many different ways of looking at "enlightenment." Does this mean seeing the physical world extremely clearly? Or reaching some sort of supernatural understanding? Am I already enlightened and just need to realize this, or is this a new state of consciousness?

And whatever enlightenment is, how will I know when I am an enlightened being? (If the criterion is asking lots of questions, yay! I'm enlightened!)

Enlightenment is an endless procession of good questions.

just_bob,

The point of all the analyzing is this:

Why meditate according to the instructions of a person or organization that is fraudulent?

What if you don't become "enlightened" as a result of doing this meditation?

I meditated for a couple of decades. Nothing. Damn! Fell asleep a lot. I don't have much hair so I was unable to tie it to a rod over my head to keep me awake. Maybe that's what I did wrong. I should have pierced my ears with rings and tied them to the overhead rod. That probably would have solved the problem. Whew! Glad I figured that out before it was too late, i.e death. Back to meditation so I can get the enlightenment thing over with and get on with life.

Why meditate according to the instructions of a person or organization that is fraudulent?"

What if you don't become "enlightened" as a result of doing this meditation?

If meditation is for enlightenment, then meditate on what you think "enlightenment" is until you realize you want what you can't imagine, or you're imagining what can't be.

@bob Russo

Bob, The point I was making was that the focus is on expanding the movement and acquiring property.

I remember Charan Singh was asked about buying property when satsangs used to be held weekly in school halls. He was specfically against it because he said it would cause friction and he did not want anything to distract from the satsangs.

Now, look how much time and energy is focussed on those buildings and property. There is a constant growth and expansion - so the focus is no longer on spirituality - but on growing the organisation.

When people are so involved in 'seva' and the day to day running of the organisation - they have forgotten that their reason in coming was not to build centres or get distracted - but to realise the truth. The goal is forgotten when the focus is to keep people busy doing 'seva' so they never think for themselves - instead they get busy doing lots for the 'guru' and decades go by - spiritual progress is a distant dream.

Go back to the humble roots. Baba Jaimal singh did not even build the real necessities because he did not want anything to distract from his meditation. Can this still be the same spiritual movement, when the focus of Baba Jaimal Singh was to simply meditate and now the focus has shifted totally to expansion.

@just_bob

you got to be kidding me!
The success rate with your magic formula is close to zero, if not exactly zero. You really think a person gets enlightened by repeating five words, parrot fashion?

You say an idiot could follow the steps. What you miss out is that most idiots do - and it's totally futile because they never 'arrive'

RSSB advocates that the goal is to be ACHIEVED through rigorous and arduous meditation on five holy words.

Zen states that enlightenment is already the case - there is nothing to achieve or attain. There is something to LOSE or DROP - the illusion that the goal is far away and that there is a ME that is trying to get there.

Also - there is no 'there' to get to.

All effort enhances the 'ego' (ME) and the ego is the root cause of the problem in the first place because it is the barrier.

Remove 'I' and there is nothing to do and there is no ME to enlighten. The 'persona' or the personality (ME) is trying to find immortality which is impossible because it is an illusion. The unreal can never become real. And the real does not need to seek immortality because it is real.

confused?
Good.
Meditate.
or ponder a zen koan.
or do nothing

Remove 'I' and there is nothing to do and there is no ME to enlighten. The 'persona' or the personality (ME) is trying to find immortality which is impossible because it is an illusion. The unreal can never become real. And the real does not need to seek immortality because it is real.


But Osho, if your 'I' has been removed, who removed it and who says it has been removed? Who or what will answer this question if not 'I'?

'I' say you're full of shit, Osho.

"There is something to LOSE or DROP - the illusion that the goal is far away and that there is a ME that is trying to get there.

Also - there is no 'there' to get to.

All effort enhances the 'ego' (ME) and the ego is the root cause of the problem in the first place because it is the barrier."

Yes, and for so long I viewed spiritual advancement as a linear progression from point A to point F. So Fruitless!

...for so long I viewed spiritual advancement as a linear progression from point A to point F. So Fruitless!

Is it fruitless because there's no such thing as "spiritual advancement", or because you've advanced by dropping your ego?

If the former, welcome to reality. If the latter, you're still deluded.

Osho,

You said a plain NO in response to my question: "Do you believe Swami Ji was a REAL guru or GIHF ?"

In other words, Swami Ji, the founder of RSSB, was fake, and by extrapolation every guru after him was/is also a fake.

Now, if you REALLY believe the founder of RSSB itself was not "a REAL guru or GIHF", how can you say the following:

1. " ..... and the real gaddi has gone elsewhere"

What "real gaddi" are you talking about and where exactly (in your opinion) has it gone?

2. "This obviously means that the beas line of masters ceased and came to an end ....."

Do you mean it (the beas line ....) came to an end with Jagat (just before Charan)?

You seem to be, at least to me, very selective in your criticism of RSSB. You want to both defend and attack at the same time. Please correct me if I am wrong but don't you see some sort of contradiction in your comments above?

HANDBOOK FOR THE NEW SATGURU (SUPREME TEACHER) OF THE RSSB (RADHA SOAMI SATSANG BEAS).

In my inner journeys up to Sach Khand, I happened upon a library. I decided there was still an eternity left to go and worship Satpurush so I went to look at the books in that library. I came across a pamphlet. It was called THE HANDBOOK FOR THE NEW SATGURU.

HERE are some tips for the aspiring Sant Satguru from the pamphlet:

1. Use all existing sources (scriptures, books, etc) to cement the belief that God comes in human form. If they believe this, you've got them by the balls and can do anything.

Once by believe CLAUSE 1, you move on to the next clause.

2. Play the "Heads, I win. Tails you lose." Game. In this situation, since you are "GOD IN HUMAN FORM", you are perfect. Therefore any errors are due to the incomplete, imperfect human beings. Any good things that may happen to them are then attributed to the Mercy, Grace, Daya, of the Master.

When sufficient guilt and slave mentality has been achieved by playing the game in CLAUSE 2, you can move to CLAUSE 3.

3. Do whatever the hell you want. Why? Because your ass is covered by CLAUSE 1 AND CLAUSE 2.

Enjoy your Satguru-hood.

And Remember,

DON'T LET YOUR AUDIO SATSANGS BE RECORDED BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF SHIT YOU'LL HAVE TO CONTRADICT LATER. THE POINT IS TO KEEP THE PEOPLE CONFUSED AND IF THEY HAVE EVIDENCE TO IMPLICATE YOU, THEY MIGHT SUSPECT CLAUSE 1 AND 2.

Cheers.

Then I came out of my meditation, drank my beer, ate my burger, and smiled my ass off.

@cc
You are taking the statement too literally.
I am saying the sense of ‘I’ the ‘me’ the personality is an illusion. Therefore it is not real. It is not that ‘I’ have to drop it (which would be impossible) – but to realize that the ‘I’ is an illusion. That is what it means to drop the ‘I’.
Your entire statement is based on the premise that ‘dropping the I’ is an action that is done by the ‘I’ (this premise is not true)
Hence you conclude I am full of shit because you did not understand.
just because you don’t understand something does not make me full of ‘shit’

cc wrote:
Is it fruitless because there's no such thing as "spiritual advancement"?
If so, welcome to reality.
My reply:
Reality does not mean ‘there is no such thing as spiritual advancement’
That is just your version of ‘reality’ which has nothing to do with reality as it is!
Are you really saying in a single all-encompassing statement that there is no such thing
As ‘spiritual’ (however defined by various people) – so the Buddha did not get ‘enlightened’
(whatever enlightenment is) and zen is crap, and so is all of Sufism and all spiritual paths.
All except for cc – who is the world authority on this topic – why because he says so!
Is that what you’re saying? And you’re NOT deluded?

Are you really saying in a single all-encompassing statement that there is no such thing
As ‘spiritual’ (however defined by various people) – so the Buddha did not get ‘enlightened’

As far as can be ascertained, there is no such thing as "spiritual" anything. Whether the Buddha or anyone got "enlightened" is a matter of opinion and belief because there is no evidence of any such thing.

If you're enlightened, Osho, you're living proof that enlightenment is delusion.

@Avi
You asked me if I personally BELIEVED Swami Ji was a real guru or GIHF
My answer was NO and still is.
However, I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore. There is no contradiction.
When I refer to ‘real gaddi’ I mean when I believed in sant mat.

@cc:
as far as can be ascertained, there is no such thing as "spiritual" anything.

This is a delusional statement, because you are taking YOUR PERSONAL OPINION and projecting it on reality as if it was a fact.

"as far as can be ascertained" - by who?
you or everyone? are you a spokesman for the world?

- the Buddha would say that I have found 'nothing' and he called it 'Nirvana' - his own word because 'enlightenment' is not a 'thing'.


It's just your opinion - just as there is the THEIST and the ATHIEST. The person saying "there IS NO GOD" is just as deluded as the person saying "there IS A GOD".

The truth is - you don't KNOW - and also it depends on how you view 'God'.
For example Osho's view is "there is no God" - but there is 'Godliness' - again it's
his personal way of seeing reality - not reality itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQFUpOOINd8

So you saying "there is no Enlightenment" is just your personal opinion - not a fact.

Enlightenment is defined in many different ways - so to even say "it exists or does not exist" is nonsense unless you first define it.

Once you define it - you cannot make a sweeping statement like "there is nobody who is enlightened" because one exception will prove your statement wrong.

@sukhbir Singh

Then I came out of my meditation, drank my beer, ate my burger, and smiled my ass off.

Well well well.
You should not be drinking beer straight after meditation - especially after a meditation that was taking you to sat purush.

And definately you should not be having burgers - unless of course you forgot to mention is was a VEGGIE-Burger.

Just imagine if Sat purush saw you drinking your beer, eating your burger and laughing your ass off - I mean he would definately cancel your visa to Sach khand.

So if you do such things in future - keep them secret and don't post them publicly - you never know if sat purush is reading this blog in his spare time.

I personally think it's not quite as sinister - but rather they (the gurus) just believe they are really following their master's instructions. I think this was the case with Charan Singh
With Gurinder Singh - he is mixing 'enlightenment' teachings in with traditional sant mat to create a new hybrid teaching. Why? Probably because he can see the absurdity of some of the sant mat teachings.
Power does strange things to people and they can start to believe all kinds of nonsense.

Osho,

Thanks for clarifying.

In response to a similar query (by me) above, Tucson made a very categorical statement:

" I agree with Sukhbir Singh that "the whole" RSSB thing is a fraud, bullshit, a con."

I believe that includes all versions of RSSB Santmat - 1.0, 2.0 or 3.0 etc. etc.

Are you also willing to make a similar statement so that everyone clearly knows your "current mindset/stand"?

Osho,

Good comments,

I liked,

"Enlightenment is defined in many different ways - so to even say "it exists or does not exist" is nonsense unless you first define it."

---When I read someplace, that there are the "enlightened few" -- I start to giggle.

Those few, just have their opinion. Nothing more.

"I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore."

Is there another blog where you comment with your current or "new" mindset? if yes, you must indeed be enlightened because you can even shift between "old" and "new" mindsets at will.

"When I refer to ‘real gaddi’ I mean when I believed in sant mat."

So, even in your "belief" days, you actually believed that the 'real gaddi' was elsewhere, and therefore NOT with the organisation you were part of. You just wanted a position where you could preach something and so you continued with an organisation you actually didn't believe in, till the time, of course, they threw you off.

The fact of the matter is: in cc's words, "You, Osho, are full of shit." and just can't live without some sort of preaching all the time.

@VVIP

you wrote: Is there another blog where you comment with your current or "new" mindset? if yes, you must indeed be enlightened because you can even shift between "old" and "new" mindsets at will.

Now you're taking the piss just for the sake of it! The point I was making is that I was commenting based on the RSSB mindset.


You wrote: So, even in your "belief" days, you actually believed that the 'real gaddi' was elsewhere, and therefore NOT with the organisation you were part of.

FYI: I was initiated by Thakar singh (kirpal's line) and Darshan Singh.

You wrote:
You just wanted a position where you could preach something and so you continued with an organisation you actually didn't believe in, till the time, of course, they threw you off.

Again - you are speaking nonsense. As you would know if you actually listened to the two parts of the satsang I posted on youtube - I was not preaching belief in RSSB. Where in those satsangs am I towing the party line?

You wrote: The fact of the matter is: in cc's words, "You, Osho, are full of shit." and just can't live without some sort of preaching all the time.

Can't you make your own statements? that you have to quote others? Do you have any constructive comments to make? apart from just repeating the same statements as if that will make them true?

"as far as can be ascertained" - by who?

Your ignorance of the scientific method is your downfall, Osho. Fact is, there is no evidence of "enlightenment". No supposedly enlightened person has demonstrated anything more than a knack for attracting credulous people...a talent you, for all your preaching, lack.

Enlightenment is approached as a holy grail, but it's a wild goose chase for the aspirant, and profound delusion for the one claiming attainance.

Brian has been giving you enough rope to hang yourself, Osho, and you've done a good job.

Osho,

"I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore."

"The point I was making is that I was commenting based on the RSSB mindset."

"I was initiated by Thakar singh (kirpal's line) and Darshan Singh."

Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission and RSSB are two different organisations. Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission is considered by RSSB to have been started by Kripal Singh against the official "Will" of Sawan Singh who appointed Jagat Singh (and NOT Kripal Singh) as his successor. Kirpal Singh is, therefore, considered a rebellion by RSSB.

Since Kirpal Singh did not publicly name a successor, after his death in 1974, a number of proposed successors appeared including Darshan Singh (Kirpal Singh's physical son)and Thakar Singh among others.

Are we supposed to infer the following from the above or not? Please clarify.

1. Your old mindset was RSSB mindset, but you were actually part of an organisation named Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission.

2. You didn't want to take a chance, so you preferred to get initiated by at least two successors of Kirpal namely Thakar singh and Darshan Singh.

Thanks for clarifying as it will help many people understand where exactly you are coming from.

VVIP,

Are you an initiate of Kirpal Singh? I'm curious as to how long you have been in the fold.

Roger,

I am not an initiate of any guru. I have, however, done some research on RSSB and some other organisations that emanated from RSSB after Sawan Singh's death.

VVIP,
You wrote:
Are we supposed to infer the following from the above or not? Please clarify.
1. Your old mindset was RSSB mindset, but you were actually part of an organisation named Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission.
2. You didn't want to take a chance, so you preferred to get initiated by at least two successors of Kirpal namely Thakar singh and Darshan Singh.
Thanks for clarifying as it will help many people understand where exactly you are coming from.
Here are my answers:
1. When I say RSSB – I mean in the loose sense – meaning SANT MAT specifically if you want to split hairs. The teachings of ruhani satsang and RSSB have been the same apart from a few minor differences – as they originated from sawan / jaimal/ swami Ji. At the time I believed there was a place called Sach Khand and a Sat Purush who ruled the region. And I was following a path to meditate to ‘get there’.
2. It’s not that I “didn’t want to take a chance”. My parents were RSSB and initiated by Charan Singh. I did not know there were other offshoots until I heard about a fellow called Thakar Singh who was giving a talk in London. I went to the talk and he was talking about initiation into sound and light – which was intriguing for me at the age of 20. So I got initiated. I used to meditate 2-4 hours a day – I really wanted to get to Sach Khand. I went to Delhi to visit “My Master” and was not too impressed by what I witnessed and I met an old satsangi of Sawan Singh who came to Delhi with Kirpal and he told me the ‘real gaddi’ and power was with Darshan Singh – not Thakar Singh. He took me to see Darshan and I left Thakar and later got initiated by Darshan. Incidentally, this was before the Thakar scandal. This was all part of my ‘search’. I also met Swami Divyanand and Ajaib Singh and also Kirpal’s doctor: Dr Harbhajan (who also claimed successorship).
At the time I was a seeker – searching for the ‘true path’ wearing the ‘glasses’ or sant mat (i.e. pre-supposing that sant mat is the true way).

cc,
you wrote:
"as far as can be ascertained" - by who? (quoting me)

Your ignorance of the scientific method is your downfall, Osho. Fact is, there is no evidence of "enlightenment". No supposedly enlightened person has demonstrated anything more than a knack for attracting credulous people.

let me reply first with a quote:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio

and your downfall, cc, is attempting to fit a round peg into a square hole.
The scientific method - is a method. Not everything can be analysed by the method - it has limitations.

For example - how will you analyse 'love' ?
There is no scientific proof of such a thing as love - so will you deny it?
What about consciousness? will you deny that too? And science is not absolute - in fact it is constantly changing - once new evidence arises. Once matter was considered to be made of atoms. Then we had the wave theory.

Even something as 'solid' as matter is not understood by science. There are many theories - but science still does not know - all it postulates is theories.

here are two links to demonstrate my point.

http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/

http://www.rhythmodynamics.com/Gabriel_LaFreniere/matter.htm

here's a quote from the second link:
"Despite our immense knowledge, we are still standing in front of the Unknown"

and here's Osho on the "science and the inner journey"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2u1g1dnKT8

@ Osho,

Cheers bro. After meeting sat Purush my karmas are cleared, so no one can revoke the visa, haha! Now I am just creating my daily karma so that I can remain in this body and enjoy the world Kaal created just abit longer.

I found out that the best way to do that was to keep drinking and eating REAL burgers, bacon and steak :) , that really keeps you grounded.

I'm not in a hurry to get back to Sach Khand now because once I go I have to take up the mantle of Sant Satguru and I'm just not ready for it. Need much more hookah before I get THAT high. By the way Shiv, Jaimal, Rai, Sawan, Kirpl, Thakral, Ajaib, and even Paul (Twitchell) say "hi."

Cheers to all of you.

Avi,
you wrote:
Tucson made a very categorical statement:
" I agree with Sukhbir Singh that "the whole" RSSB thing is a fraud, bullshit, a con."

I believe that includes all versions of RSSB Santmat - 1.0, 2.0 or 3.0 etc. etc.

Are you also willing to make a similar statement so that everyone clearly knows your "current mindset/stand"?

My reply:
Yes - I agree that RSSB (and sant mat teachings) will not lead the aspirant to the goal which he seeks.

However, (probably like tucson) I do not follow on and say that ALL PATHS are bullshit and that science is the only 'answer'. Science has it's place but it cannot explain everything. It also has it's limitations.

I do not believe like 'cc' that there is no 'spiritual' - because this is subjective and science does not work too well with 'subjective' things.

I do not reject the whole of Taoism, sufism, zen, buddhism, and all enlightenment teachings - just because 'sant mat' happens to be invalid in my opinion.

Maybe Buddha (to give one example) was deluded. Maybe all of zen is total crap. Maybe there is no such thing as consciousness. Maybe love does not exist.

or (more likely) maybe as humans we simply reject certain things just because we have not examined them or experienced them.

A person who has never experienced love may say there is no love because there is no scientific proof of it.

Some things are outside of the scope of science. That does not mean those things do not exist - but simply that the tool is not useful in that area.

Osho wrote:

"However, (probably like tucson) I do not follow on and say that ALL PATHS are bullshit and that science is the only 'answer'. Science has it's place but it cannot explain everything. It also has it's limitations."

--That is correct. Science is a belief system as well, forever mutating and changing. I think this fluidity is good. Makes things awesome and mysterious. I guess some scientists think there are immutable laws of physics. Let's just say that maybe these immutable laws are not yet fully understood. Ironically, the only "thing" that seems to prevail is "what" we perceive when we find that what we are is not the presence of what is present and the absence of what is absent, but rather the absence of what is present and the presence of what is absent. Way cool. Thanks WWW.

As far as the question of chosing Punjab as a place for spreading Santmat,You must find some time to make a trip to the world and see that there are so many religious masters on the earth.It is just that you only know about Gurvider Singh Dhillon. Only in India ,there are so many Gurus which are having Huge number of followers behind them.
Now one question is here for you --
Why you r raising questions only on Gurvinder Singh Dhillon? Simple reason is that The total number of followers that Gurvinder Singh Dhillon is having and the popularity ha has gained all over the world , No other Human being Living on this earth has got.

Im a new comer to this forum and Id like to add mine.Although very dissalusioned about Sant Mat for various reasons , one comment I want to make is this/ Unless one has actually been to the Dera and felt the love and fellowship there I don't think one can judge the Path. It is truly amazing. I have never been asked to pay a cent. You have free board and loggings are treated with kindness and love it feels like home.whether or not that will lead to enlightenment or not is another question But I have only always experienced love Perhaps that is the problem. The love we have here in South Africa is very real that's why its so hard for me to break away but Im no longer part of the party line

june, volunteer service and a feeling of community indeed is great. But this can be experienced everywhere.

There's a bakery in my town that gives free slices of bread to everyone who walks in. Very generous. You don't have to buy anything.

No religion is peddled there. These are just generous people who have made it a practice to give away bread.

The Path, as you call it. doesn't have anything to do with the Dera and free lodging. Charan Singh was fond of saying that there is no need to go to any meetings. Just do your meditation.

What you call the Path actually is a social organization that people enjoy. Sure, free meals, free lodging, meet friendly people, have good conversations. All good. But this has nothing to do with spirituality or religion.

You have free board and loggings are treated with kindness and love it feels like home.whether or not that will lead to enlightenment or not is another question

Yes, the loggings were treated with kindness and love...more kindness and love than the guests were treated with, making my attainment of enlightenment that much more difficult.

I do not believe like 'cc' that there is no 'spiritual' - because this is subjective and science does not work too well with 'subjective' things.

Spirituality is all in your mind, so your faith, your gods, your enlightenment, are all grist for the mill of psychology, which does very well with it.

Hi Brian yes I agree going to Dera is not The Path and cc I don't get your drift What do you mean by the loggins (my spellings mistake) were treated with more love than the quests Ba GI is a perect host He cant be faltered on that

Dear June,

I can not claim to understand what you are going through. However, I know that you are going through a very uncertain time in your life. The worldview which you have held for more than half of your lifetime has come crumbling down in your own eyes.

It is hard to cut the cord with something you've been associated with for so long. At this moment it sounds like you are still trying to salvage or find a reason for why you followed it; still seeing that there must have been something that attracted you there.

It will take a long time to heal through this. The lenses of indoctrination are cracking and you can see through the cracks. It will take time until they are broken down.

We support you in this endeavour and don't make light of it. Take the time you need. We are here if you have any questions. We are not going to push you to reach where we are as we ourselves have taken our own time to get to where we are in relation to RSSB.

Regards,

Sukhbir

well thank youSukhbir for you kind words >I think if we had this kind of dialogue in the Satanga there would be far less Ex Satsangis

Sant Mat: Truth Teachings or Belief System?

Question 1: Do you control your mind, or does your mind control you?

Practical exercise to help with obtaining an answer: select any single thought and then mentally continue repeating it without it being displaced by another thought.

Question 2: How long were you able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought?

Question 3: If you were NOT able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought, for an indefinite length of time, or even for two or three hours, is it true that you control your mind?

Question 4: If you were NOT able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought, for two or three hours, is this state of affairs the basis for your view that Sant Mat's spiritual teachings are false or invalid?

Question 5: If you were able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought, for two or three hours, did you notice any change of sensation in the extremities of your limbs?

Question 6: Do you have an easier time doing uninterrupted repetition of attention at the sex center in the body (i.e. 2nd energy center), compared with the thinking center (i.e. 6th energy center)?

NOTE for #6: I remember reading a spiritual revelation by a spiritual teacher (non-Sant Mat) in the early 1980s. It was about the difference between sexual ecstasy and spiritual ecstasy. I do not remember the exact language, but the revelation went something like the following: Everybody knows the thrill of the experience of sexual ecstasy, and the thrill of the experience of spiritual ecstasy is so much more.

Question 7: If you do not control your mind, what makes you think you possess the fitness for healthfully managing the realities of the next plane of life, much less the planes of life above the next plane?

Question 8: Is your body a cage to your self, or is your self free to leave the body?

Question 9: Is your mind a cage to your self, or is your self free to leave the mind?

Question 10: What kind of body are you operating in while in the dream state (lucid dreaming or otherwise)?

Question 11: Would you believe someone who has seen the Radiant Form of the Master and who personally told you of this?

Question 12: Would you believe someone who has heard the bell sound of the first region and who personally told you of this?

Question 13: Would you believe someone who has experienced separate episodes of receiving overwhelming inflows of transcendent spiritual energy from the Master during darshan and who personally told you of these?

Question 14: If you think you would believe someone who gave you a personal testimony of the things in Questions 11, 12, and 13, why won't you believe what has been said about these things in the Beas Sant Mat literature.

NOTE for #14: In the vernacular of this blog, I am a church member, and I happen to be of the Beas variety. I am aware of other sources of Sant Mat literature, and I have read a bit of this other literature. However, my main familiarity is with the Beas spectrum of literature.

If you have not had your own spiritual experiences, and if your mind has confounded you into feeling or believing that there is no spiritual reality, I would recommend the aid of serious research into Near-Death, Out-of-Body Travel, Shamanic, and esoteric metaphysical literature. Surely, not all of the authors in these fields are fiction tellers, leaving the authors of posts on this blog as the only truth tellers.

For those without starting places for this literature research, I can point to some beginning sources: 1) Pim van Lommel for Near-Death studies, 2) Marilynn Hughes for Out-of-Body Travel studies, 3) Hank Wesselman for Shamanic studies, and 4) Urantia for esoteric metaphysical studies. There is a large amount of literature in all of these areas, for any true research effort.

For those who are content with their present attainments and circlings, this post may not contribute much of value. This post is mostly for those who have a sincere and fairly deep and regularly recurring yearning for conscious connection with God. I do not claim to know anything about the ultimate spiritual reach and stature of the Shabd Saints of Beas.

Question 15: If it is not anti-social to leave human society and sleep for 6-8 hours a day, why is it anti-social to spend 2 or 3 hours in solitude seeking liberation from the cage of the body and lower mind?

NOTE for #15: The first kind of activity serves one kind of health. The second kind of activity serves another kind of health.

Question 16: If it is not anti-social to leave one's home territory and travel to far away lands, why would it be anti-social to leave one's body and travel to non-physical planes of reality (for those who are accomplished "travelers")?

@ Aim4Truth

I really love the title of your post: Sant Mat: Truth Teachings or Belief System?

It was a very promising title until you started off with your first series of questions which only reflected the bias toward belief systems and not truth.

Repeating something to yourself over and over again and being able to do it for hours and hours is not an accomplishment. It is a 'dumbing down' of your system. It is basically self-hypnotising yourself into a state. It is not the power of the words, but any thing repeated over and over again will give your mind a 'stilling' effect. But it is just an effect, not a sign of truth.

Your extremities numbing down has nothing to do with soul leaving the body 'cage'. It has everything to do with the fact that as you leave something in one position without moving it for a long time your sensations become more numb as it becomes accustomed to that position. Which makes it possible to focus the awareness on something else. In this case, on the constant repetition of phrases. Constant movement creates constant sensations.

Am I supposed to believe that people who see what they are taught to see are actually doing something grand? All the books mention the regions and the colors and the sounds. You can make all of it up in your head once you got it. You can hear the bell sound or what 'sounds like a bell sound' with your eagerness. "oh yeah, it does sound like a bell, this must be the first stage of the shabad". "Oh, i'm beginning to see the star and I should just look at it and do my simran and not get too excited otherwise it will all become black again." Why, oh why? Because when you are excited, you are stimulating yourself and therefore you come out of the hypnotic state.

People see what they are trained to see, this is not proof of the truth. It is only proof of the power of indoctrination.

Fundamentalist Christians see Christ, not Krishna. Followers of Eckankar see Fubbi Quantz and Rebazar Tsar or whatever (masters made up by Paul Twitchell), they don't see Ajaib Singh or Bin Laden.

You get it? None of your questions up there are ways of knowing the truth. However, they do show that your bias as the language in your questions is the language of belief not of a "way to know". Your assumptions about the "body-cage", and soul-travel, and mention of NDEs and studies of Shamanic (hallucinogenic induced issues) are all the same.

There is no way to make the teachings of Sant Mat by Beas falsifiable. You can't just stop at the meditation. The meditation is one aspect of the entire story. The story is that Sat Purush gave Kaal this world and sent souls away from His abode to fill Kaal's world. Why? Because it was his Mauj (will) to populate the world and because Kaal performed penances. Now Satpurush feels bad for his souls who are yearning for him so he comes into Kaal's world as Sant Satguru to bring souls back to Sach Khand. Satpurush is sorry for the mistake and will never do it again (go read Sar Bachan). Once the souls are back with him they are back for good. But the ones who are not yearning for him will suffer.

Revert back to the story of Christianity and God. God banished Adam and Eve because of their Original Sin. Now the world is suffering. God feels bad so he decides to incarnate as Jesus Christ and suffers and dies to purge humanity of original sin. Those who accept Jesus as saviour will be saved from Hell. Those who don't will suffer hell.

Don't you see the same fallacious background on which the two teachings are based? Don't make Sant Mat sound like it's just about the meditation and soul travel. It is build on the foundation story mentioned above. Without that story, you don't need to do the meditation required by Sant Mat.

There is no way the above story can be the truth and therefore your very attempt to show Sant Mat as a truth has been destroyed from your very first words after the title.

Enjoy your indoctrination, but don't bring bullshit masquerading as truth to this forum. You are a sincere believer. That's fine. Sincerity is not a measure of truth.

Sukhbir Sing,
I appreciate your excellently written posting!

Sukhbir, why were all the SIKH gurus from the Punjab, YDF?

I am assuming you are a Sikh or atleast a punjabi? Why are all the 10 SIKH gurus from the Punjab. What stupid questions ! Yeah - Hail Sukhbir.

Sukhbir Singh - the tales of Kal and all of that? I think either they lost their positions, or maybe some were demoted, during the tenure of the present guru. In fact the more exotic and story-ish elements have been put in storage...somewhere. Tis a new day bro. Out with medieval tales and in with the bottom line. What is the bottom line? Meditation. Why? Ooops, well, let me get out a few of the old stories and see if I can figure it out.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.

Posts compendium

Teeny-tiny Collection Plate

  • Brian Hines: Return to the One

    Brian Hines: Return to the One
    If you'd like to support the Church's efforts in a small way, and also learn about a great Greek mystic philosopher (Plotinus) who wonderfully embodies our creedless creed, consider buying our unpastor's book, "Return to the One: Plotinus's Guide to God-Realization."

Blog powered by Typepad

Become a Fan

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...