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August 19, 2013

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Don't you just hate it when your guru dies and you're left with nothing but the organization you built around him?

I couldn't have said it better myself. You hit all the points. Corrupting power, ego encouraging teachings, brainwashed sense of privilege, military style dictatorship with mindless followers, devolved idiots giving satsangs like puffed up peacocks to cooing braindead zombies. Sorry, getting carried away. Actually I feel sorry for the earnest seekers who live in hope for enlightenment and believe that Babaji is the real deal. So sad indeed. Especially for their families who deserve so much more from them.

What keeps a RSSB disciple firmly in the grasp of the cult?
There are a number of factors and they are related to the primary motivations of a human being:
Human beings only do two things in life
(1) They seek pleasure
(2) The avoid pain

The pleasure that a RSSB follower gets is:
(a) they get to believe they are privileged disciples and the master will save them at the time of death and take care of them and their close ones.
(b) They believe they are the LUCKY ONES who have found the true living master and that this rare opportunity happens after many lifetimes
(c) They believe that RSSB has the REAL TRUTH about life and inner regions and that the master really is the master of the universe, and a close associate of God!
(d) main sevadars and speakers and secretaries have the additional pleasure of a massive ego and status boost because the sangat looks up them


The pain they avoid is:
(a) knowing they are not alone at the time of death, and the master will come personally to save them.
(B) the bad karma which they believe they will incur if they turn their back on RSSB.
(C) The family disapproval they will suffer if their families have been followers for a few generations

Leaving is not so easy to do because the follower has to give up all these benefits. So it is the path of least resistance to carry on following. Most of the followers are only following because its the only thing they know and it feels good to be part of the special group.

Facing the truth is mighty uncomfortable and people rarely do it unless they have to.

The person doing the seva that day, who asked me to stand on the other side - really believes he is doing some sort of useful service to master. If only he could wake up and see that what he is doing is not service at all. How does it benefit anyone if I stand on the other side of the path?

"order are orders" is the stuff that creates wars! That is why every country has brainwashed people called 'the army' who are required to follow orders and never think. If they were allowed to think - they would refuse to drop bombs. But they have been conditioned to be heroes for dropping bombs.

The sevadars are no different. They are following orders. They are army recruits and the higher sevadars are the generals. They are all nothing more than slaves of the system.

My recent experience when he visited a few weeks back was that the sevadars were simply helpful and not pushy.

Something not mentioned but that I believe to be extremely relevant?! The pot of gold. What is the pot of gold? It is physical proximity and access to the Guru. I have seen people behave very badly when they feel their position inside the organization, and the access it affords them, is threatened. People like to position themselves for the magic of darshan. One glance ya know. I know one woman whose ambition is to somehow be included on the Dera's "A" list. What the heck is the "A" list anyhow? Anybody know?

IloveDrAnn,
You say the sevadars were simply helpful and not pushy. That will be your experience unless you do anything against their 'helpful suggestion'. Even as little as not sitting down exactly where they say. Just try it and watch the drama unfold.
I was at a main satsang once, and I accidently walked on the wrong side of a rope. The sevadar asked me to go back and walk on the inside of the rope.
I thought he was joking. I asked him what benefit he will get if I go back and walk on the other side of the rope. He could not answer, so I refused and he asked me what centre I was from. What's that got to do with anything? I told them I have no centre. Perhaps I should have said the ‘eye’center.
What is the benefit if I go back and walk inside the rope? It is utter nonsense. This is called seva?
The sevadars are really crowd control staff and spies designed to make sure you don’t smuggle a phone or recording device into satsang.
I once saw a lady standing in the middle of the sangat, pretending to be lost, asking people if she can borrow a phone to make a call. When someone offer her his phone, she immediately told him he should not have a phone and sent him to check it in.
A clever trick – it turns out she was a sevadar, and this was her clever ploy to make sure nobody has their phone with them.
Getting on the A-list is about power. Getting to the top is just like the rat race. Those same people may have come out of the rat race and then find they are still in it. It just changed forms.
They are all deluded into thinking that one glance will wash away their sins. Those who are with the guru and work close to him are still as deluded as anyone, so it’s obviously not working.

Osho -- yes, and then there is a higher expectation of an organization that is (allegedly) all about spirituality. So we expect a more refined interaction, I suppose.

As and IF I understand darshan -- it is the fervent hope that a gracious glance will come, maybe, rather than assuming it already has. Just being around a Saint does not qualify one for that glance, however. But that is part (not all of) of the desire for being around the guru...that traditional Indian thing. I believe the other part is some triggered endorphin, dopamine, sarotonin natural bio-chemical event
that happens with deep belief in, and feeling for someone, esp. if that someone is physically present. Such deep and abiding emotional (i,e, devotional) responses are, to say the least, very memorable. So the disciple/person wants to position themselves to have that experience as often as possible. The natural high of being around someone believed to be ineffable and Sovereign. Sovereign with a Capital "S"....in the highest sense.

Naturally when it comes to Seva (serving the guru?) perhaps the footnote of serving the Sangat IS serving the guru -- is oft lost in the flurry of bhakti animations.

Osho,

I am no fan of rssb and in most agree with your views, but regarding your recent experience- if your honest with yourself- you are being rather pedantic. This issue is that you was obstructing the flow of "traffic" and where there is traffic there must be a system, and you cant not expect the system to adjust to your view, you are an intelligent person so i dont need to give examples etc. overall i say keep up the good work Osho, but dont lower yourself.

I can completely relate with it. I am never manhandled so badly even at the security checkpoints at airports as I was treated at Dera. Those illiterate and brainwashed women at the checkpoint at Dera treated me like a terrorist. During my last trip, they yelled at me for not hurrying up while my little one was crying. (Though there was no line.)

Also inside the satsang hall, they push you like herds. Though being a NRI, I was treated special with those white cushions to sit ( racism as its best) but pushing was bad. I even told the lady in white suit not to push me, she stared back at me as if she is going to kill me. Compassion? really? These people looked like hired Goondas in a mafia clan!

Oh, I know! Those sevadars are so bossy and pushy! Sometimes I wonder why I belong to this idiotic cult! Jeez! Lighten up, guys! Can't a humble devotee get some respect?!

I've heard Babaji say darshan is like a spotlight. The farther you are from the source the wider the beam. Those sitting next to the source are often the most in the dark.

Enlightened,
I fully take your point about obstructing ‘traffic’
However,
(1) There was very little traffic and more importantly
(2) I DID stand to the side as instructed. I agree that it was reasonable for the sevadar to ask me to step to the side – which I did. The incident became confrontational only when he asked me to stand on the other side and not on the side where he was standing.
The point here being that the primary purpose of getting out of the way of traffic had been fulfilled. The logic behind being asked to stand on the ‘other side’ escapes me. Why was I being asked to stand on the other side? Perhaps there was a mango tree there – so I could eat mangoes while waiting.
That is why I asked the sevadar the reason for his ‘request’. I even said I would comply if he gives me a logical reason like the mango tree scenario. He had no reason to give other than – “I am asking (ordering) you to do so and you need to comply”. Sorry matey – but I am not a slave to anyone. The best reason he could give was “I have been instructed to do this.”
Now I am going to take an intelligent guess. It is most likely that he has been asked to make sure nobody obstructs the walkway. Not specifically which side of the walkway they should stand on. Most likely he added that himself. And the real reason he is upset is because I did not give him the ‘respect’ he deserved as a sevadar. And his ego was hurt.
This is actually the whole point of being a sevadar – to look at your own ego and drop it. But what will happen in RSSB is the ego will get strengthened because other sevadars will come and support him – thereby confirming that he was ‘right’ all along. Food for the ego.

I've heard Babaji say that his followers are idiots.

I had to end a friendship of ten years with my closest pal because of his obsession with seva. It consumed his weekends but it also consumed his ego....he was a different person around non-satsangi's; friendly, funny, trying hard to blend in but he never dared speak about his beliefs; when the subject of religion cropped up he would say he was a Sikh....with his boys at Haynes Park he would talk about how the Sikh's had lost the way by not having a living master. It was like he lived a double life and the Seva personae he took on was very serious. He was only ever friendly to other sevadars as he considered them his equals. Consequently....feigning humility leads to more and more pride....people who are truly humbled by reality soon learn that humility doesn't always feel sweet but it's necessary to appreciate gratitude. I always thought the point of a sevadar was to serve the sangat in a loving and approachable manner...these days the masses at Haynes Park are seen as human furniture....seems like in RSSB there are too many cowboys and bot enough indians :-)

CC that was so funny you made me spit my drink out. I could totally see him saying that too. I think he and his family laugh their guts out at the stupidity of the sheeple who would all happily jump off the nearest ledge if he were rumoured to have possibly suggested it. And now i'm giggling as I picture the sevadars keeping everyone on the proper side of the line on their way to the ledge. If it weren't so scary it would be hilarious indeed.

If it weren't so scary it would be hilarious indeed.

The only scary thing about it is that there are so many idiots eager to do as they're told by their self-appointed masters.

Here's another way of looking at things.

Last time I attended satsang when GSD visited, as per usual I wanted to sit at the back and leave quietly before the rush at the end... standing in the entrance queue and being asked to hand over my handbag I started to protest and then pulled myself together and became very "present" and heard myself thinking.. I really don't want to do this. So, I quietly, calmly, politely said to the sevadar, "I really don't want to do this" and he took a little step backwards, looked at me thoughtfully and said, "okay sister if you really don't want to, thats okay" and I walked into satsang.

You dont need a TSA-background to be a RSSB-sevadar, but it helps.

I quietly, calmly, politely said to the sevadar, "I really don't want to do this" and he took a little step backwards, looked at me thoughtfully and said, "okay sister if you really don't want to, thats okay" and I walked into satsang.


He conceded because you were humbly honest instead of pathetically compliant, but what if you had questioned his right to make such a request of you? What if you had politely refused to comply?

You behaved submissively, and submission to their authortiy is all they want from you, regardless of how you express it.

cc:

The RSSB guru is not self-appointed.

The RSSB guru is not self-appointed.

This is your religious testimony. If you didn't decide to follow the guru, who or what is responsible for your slavish devotion? Please don't answer this by making another statement of faith. Prove, show, demonstrate, if you can, that your will (ego) is not the decisive factor in this matter.

cc:

Was saying this in a legal sense. He was appointed, or left in charge of the whole thing via a Will.

Slavish devotion? Hummm. Why the accusation?

Actually I don't even know who I am-- let alone who anybody else is -- including Mr. Gurinder Singh, etc.

Everyone has a temporary self-portrait, I suppose. Comes in handy.

"He conceded because you were humbly honest instead of pathetically compliant, but what if you had questioned his right to make such a request of you? What if you had politely refused to comply?

You behaved submissively, and submission to their authortiy is all they want from you, regardless of how you express it."

His right to make such a request? He's just following the rules and that is his right to do so and not for me to judge what others do. If he had refused my desire to take my handbag in with me I would have simply walked away and not gone into the satsang.

We live in a system guided by rules in this world and Sant Mat is an organisation within a system as well. We can either be defiant, submissive, or withdraw.

I probably shouldn't be commenting here but I am churchless and used to feel disgruntled like others on this blog. Just expressing another point of view here.

We live in a system guided by rules in this world and Sant Mat is an organisation within a system as well. We can either be defiant, submissive, or withdraw.

Really? What about just being reasonable? When an authority figure asks you to surrender your purse before entering the premises, don't you want to know why? And if you think you already know why, don't you want to know why you belong to such a paranoid organization?

Everyone has a temporary self-portrait, I suppose. Comes in handy.

Slavish devotees believe they're divinely inspired - not just playing out their fantasy. Comes in handy.

"And if you think you already know why, don't you want to know why you belong to such a paranoid organization?"

Aah, but cc I don't belong to any organization, neither the satsangis nor the ex-satsangis.

I like Brian's latest post about how we are all searching for security. Belonging to a group or clan is exactly that... seeking security with likeminded people with the same opinions. Yes, we all suffer from ego. There is ego that keeps us separate by feeling special because we are different and also ego that makes us feel we are always reasonable and knowledgeable when we have others agreeing with our opinions.

...we all suffer from ego. There is ego that keeps us separate by feeling special because we are different and also ego that makes us feel we are always reasonable and knowledgeable when we have others agreeing with our opinions.

The notion that we "suffer from ego" is religious nonsense. We suffer from ignorance of our cognitive biases and our tendency to authorize others to do our thinking for us.

Take the time and trouble to look closely at your suffering as you experience it and you'll realize that chalking it up to "ego" is an excuse for not finding out what's really going on.

cc,

Beautifully said. I couldn't agree more with you.

The point is; it's not always about the request a sevadar makes...it's the way in which the sevadar makes it...undertones of arrogance...the request should be humble because that is part of the Sant Mat system is it not?
So the satsangi's are told to live a life of humility but as one goes up the pecking order of RSSB the humility can be relaxed....I wonder how humble it is at the top....it's just like any corporation...what they are selling the masses is hope...something very intangible.

...the satsangi's are told to live a life of humility but as one goes up the pecking order of RSSB the humility can be relaxed

Where there's a pecking order there's no humility, but believers think they can have it both ways.

Humility has to do with awareness of how mistaken and deluded you can be - not with spiritual upward mobility.

Why all the fuss,

All sevadars are equal but sum are more equal than others

Since I left RSSB I found solution to almost every problem that was haunting me then. I feel much much better now.

Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game? If you don't like something what is that need to find justification for your dislike?

"Psychological projection was conceptualized by Sigmund Freud in the 1890s as a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world.

Freud considered that in projection thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one's own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else. What the ego repudiates is split off and placed in another."

Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game?

When you see someone behaving stupidly, foolishly, irresponsibly, and you see the needlessly destructive and tragic consequences of their behavior, what is your response?

Just Me wrote:
"Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game? If you don't like something what is that need to find justification for your dislike?"

There is no blame. To interact with a person (like a sevadar) and to even disagree with his actions does not mean there is automatic blame.

Blame only occurs if a person feels victimized and considers the other to be 'wrong' in some way.

When the above incident happened at haynes - I definatly did not feel victimized and I did not blame the sevadar. In fact I rather enjoyed the whole incident. It was just a game I was playing and enjoying. There was no bitterness or blame.

In his eyes I was 'wrong' because I was not obeying his orders and therefore the master's orders. However, I only created the 'scene' for a little light entertainment. It really did not matter to me even if I got throw out. I just enjoy watching how some of the sevadars get so carried away with their 'duties'.

On the one hand a RSSB initiate is trying to get to 'God' through meditation. On the other hand he gets caught up in ego-trip.

A true seeker would simply refuse to be a sevadar or to 'covert' anyone until he himself had the results. Only then can he authentically say his path is correct - otherwise it is the same as every other religion - the blind leading the blind.

Every RSSB follower simply BELIEVES he has found the truth and he mistakes that BELIEF for the TRUTH. He thinks he KNOWS - when in fact he simply believes.

And belief keeps you blind, forever.

Hi cc: you wrote:

"When you see someone..."

Who are you "seeing"? Typing here, reading posts on Brian's blog, I wouldn't (thinking for myself) call that "seeing" anybody. If we were to get together for a cup of coffee we might end up laughing and sharing all kinds of stories. We might part the best of friends, enriched by the experience. That would be difficult here.

You chose the words: stupid, foolish, irresponsible...those are unkind words....they suggest anger on your part. Are you angry? If we were sitting and chatting together, I would have more clues..voice inflection, body posture...etc.

"needless destructive and tragic consequences.."

Do you have a specific person in mind that suffered tragedy and destruction because of the Radha Soami religious faith? Because IMO, these intense words are best reserved for events like the the Bubonic plague, Fukushima, Chernobyl, floods, earthquakes, wars; ya know, things that murder, wound and kill millions of humans and other life, and/or bring unprecedented harm to the natural world.

A few years back I met Brian and his wife at a satsang weekend, thus have a picture in my head of Brian...a reference. My impression? Brian is a funny, quirky, insightful, and approachable dude. His wife seemed quite wonderful and even more insightful than Brian. Point being?, I count that as partially "seeing". A legitimate foot in the door of "seeing". ( Also, if I had not met Brian my appreciation of his blog here would probably would be different.)

Osho you wrote:

"Every RSSB follower simply BELIEVES he has found the truth and he mistakes that BELIEF for the TRUTH. He thinks he KNOWS - when in fact he simply believes."


Have you met every follower? My experience has been that not every initiate is really convinced of the veracity of the teachings, nor the spiritual status of the current head sevadar (Mr. Gurinder Singh). I have heard some spectacular disclaimers -- some so very funny they'd me ROTFL. The non-Asian, Western sangat is getting pretty old, testy and more than a tad cynical.

It is a sad story. The teacher believes he is God yet he is not. Who will rescuee the children that did not grow up for many reasons?

If you are laughing and smiling
and having a good time .......

do you really care if you drop dead
right now ?

ILoveDrAnn quoted me:

"Every RSSB follower simply BELIEVES he has found the truth and he mistakes that BELIEF for the TRUTH. He thinks he KNOWS - when in fact he simply believes."

and asked:
Have you met every follower? My experience has been that not every initiate is really convinced of the veracity of the teachings, nor the spiritual status of the current head sevadar (Mr. Gurinder Singh).

When I wrote "every follower" I was specifically referring those who follow the RSSB path and consider it is the 'truth'

Of course there are those who take the teachings with a pinch of salt. I was not referring to them as they are not technically 'followers'

A follower, in this context, is someone who has faith in Gurinder singh and believes he is a true satguru and GIHF.

The point I was making is that those followers take it for granted that they are on the right path and that RSSB really is the only 'way'. They are not open to the possibility that they are simply following another religion, and are just brainwashed like the followers of any religion.

Every brainwashed follower of every religion believes they really have found the 'truth'. They also 'know' that all the other religions are deluded.


There are two ways to be fooled.
One is to believe what isn't true;
the other is to refuse to believe what is true.
Soren Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a
state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
--Thomas Jefferson, 1816.


"The individual is handicapped, by coming face-to-face, with a conspiracy so monstrous, he cannot believe it exists. The American mind, simply has not come to a realization of the evil, which has been introduced into our midst . . . It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy, which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent."
- FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, 1956

“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.”
THOMAS PAINE (1737-1809)

“There’s a plot in this country to enslave every man, woman and child. Before I leave this high and noble office, I intend to expose this plot.”
– President John F. Kennedy before his assassination

“The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot
to destroy the American’s freedom and before I leave office, I
must inform the citizens of this plight."
-President Kennedy was assassinated on the
22nd of November, 1963 ten days after he
made this speech to Columbia University
on Nov 12, 1963.
He knew what you are finding out now.

"Who controls the food supply controls the people;
who controls the energy can control whole continents;
who controls money can control the world."
Henry Kissinger

Quote osho
“Every brainwashed follower of every religion believes they really have found the 'truth'. They also 'know' that all the other religions are deluded.”
...“And belief keeps you blind...”

Yes yes yes! So true!

Regarding just me’s comment about Freud and cc’s quote
“Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game?
When you see someone behaving stupidly, foolishly, irresponsibly, and you see the needlessly destructive and tragic consequences of their behavior, what is your response?”
and the referring comment of IloveDrAnn (August 24,2013m 10.39 AM):

I want to say that I am noticing „projection“ -as Freud described it- very often with myself and with others.
But -
Projection is also true the other way round, so to say: the positive way round:
The only possibility to understand/perceive the “you”, the view of the others, is through one’s own thinking. There is no other way. Only by use of one’s own thoughts the thoughts of others will become somehow understandable. Nobody is able to “put oneself in the others shoes”.

How can someone understand the thoughts, motivations, desires of others? Only with the aid of his own way to look on things.
How can someone comprehend his/her own thoughts, motivations, desires? Through projecting them on his counterpart, assuming that the counterpart is thinking and feeling like himself.
Everybody is defining himself through his counterpart.

referring to cc's comment
"When you see someone behaving stupidly, foolishly, irresponsibly, and you see the needlessly destructive and tragic consequences of their behavior, what is your response?")
I thought that this statement was concerning the “projection-phenomenon” mentioned by just me, that makes it unnecessary to blame others.
I think that not every behaviour is comprehensible through the “projection-method”. Opinions and behaviours differ. Fortunately. That’s what makes life everlasting a juicy phenomenon.

There is projection, no doubt, but not every behaviour is projection. So, blaming others for their stupid behaviour also has it’s right of approval.

things that murder, wound and kill millions of humans and other life, and/or bring unprecedented harm to the natural world.

Religion/spirituality with it's anti-science bias and its dishonesty bears more responsibility for suffering, misery, and destruction than any natural disaster. Most mass murder is, when not orchestrated by religion, condoned by it.

Brian is a funny, quirky, insightful, and approachable dude. His wife seemed quite wonderful and even more insightful than Brian.

Why be snide? Wouldn't it have been enough to say she was insightful?

Yes, the rot of authoritarianism in RSSB has been going for sometime.I was not suprised by the blog article at all

Who controls the energy...Mike wrote.
Who controls the thinking about energy. The big bang? Do we really life inside a nuclear explosion? Children of the bomb.
Before Einstein there was Tesla wo was litterally the bringer of the light but he was ignored. There is no energy in matter but from the environment.
Children of the sun!

cc:

obviously -- religion, science, knives and words are useful or destructive, depending on the kindness, nobility, and wisdom of the human(s) involved. Science as a method of inquiry can't, obviously, totally compensate for the defects in human nature (such as short-sightedness, greed, hubris, and easily taking offense) and neither can religion. If we are looking for something to blame...the study of our dear cousins, the chimpanzees, might be a good place to start.


As a die-hard RS-fanboy, I will concede that the RSSB sevadars can be power-tripping weirdos. Which is ironic given that the main thrust of the teachings is to decrease your ego as it's a barrier on the spiritual path. So the next time a power-tripping weirdo sevadar tries to bully you around, just feel pity for their wretched soul and know that you aren't any better than them.

:sound-of-leaves-rustling:

The position of being a sevadar is ego-enhancing. The higher up your seva the more your ego. There is no way to avoid this. As a sevadar in a position of power, you have to exert your ego as part of your job.

Can you imagine an egoless sevadar?

The dialogue would go like this:

sevadar: can you please stand to one side?
sangat member: No, piss of you lunatic
savadar: As you wish. I am sorry to have bothered you today.

the sevadar would not last every long because he would get fired. RSSB needs egotistic sevadars to enforce the rules.

a humble sevadar is a contradiction in terms. A sevadar has to enforce rules.

Ironically this means you cannot become a sevadar if you want to make spiritual progress. Being a sevadar is a barrier to spiritual progress because it is ego-enhancing and the disciple is trying to diminish his ego - not enhance it.

Why would a sincere disicple ever become a sevadar? Why would a sincere disciple want to boss the sangat around? only a egoistic disciple can want to be a sevadar.

Why would a sincere disciple ever become a sevadar? Why would a sincere disciple want to boss the sangat around? only a egoistic disciple can want to be a sevadar.

….This is part from a newsletter of RSSB Spain:

Master repeatedly tells us the key to spiritual success. Three S.

SIMRAN: We can only realize its power when we do it. Its power is revealed over time.

SATSANG: Master has given us one of the most powerful links to keep us in his company by offering us the opportunity to attend satsang. Satsang is the weekly balm that soothes our pains and worries.

SEVA: Seva is at the cornerstone of Sant Mat.
Simply put, seva is one of the greatest gifts of the Master to bring home the awareness of our weak little egos. How else can we be made to realise our insignificance, to shed our self-importance? When we perform our seva, whatever it may be, with the right attitude of mind, MASTER DRAWS US TOWARDS HIM.

Juan quoted from rssb newsletter:
“Seva is at the cornerstone of Sant Mat. Simply put, seva is one of the greatest gifts of the Master to bring home the awareness of our weak little egos. How else can we be made to realise our insignificance, to shed our self-importance?”
Okay, so now relate this to the REALITY of what happens in seva at RSSB. When was the last time you saw a sevadar who had a weak little ego? How does ordering the sangat about make you realise your ‘insignificance’? I have yet to meet a sevadar who shed his self-importance through seva. However I met a lot of sevadars who had massively inflated egos through their seva.
So it appears to be having the opposite effect.

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