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February 10, 2013

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When we die, the Mystery really begins. The Mystery is the non-knowable. The Mind/Ego creates the heaven/hell/rebirth. But, the Mind/Ego, also creates the non-heaven, non-hell and non-rebirth too.

They have biodegradable containers for the ashes which enables them to be put in the water or wherever and slowly dissolve and that makes sense to me. As to what happens after death, we do not know but we know one thing for sure-- this life is the only one it gets. Regardless of any possible/or not afterlife, we should live this one as though it's all there is.

The latest talk on those who visualized a hell when they 'died' has been interesting as it didn't relate to how they had lived their life that they ended up there although it did mostly come to those with a Christian perspective who had been taught about a hell. I wonder also if they had watched/read a lot of sci-fi, fantasy, and horror type books or films.

"The cheaper alternative is cremation, yet they try to sell you an elaborate, expensive urn when an empty coffee can will do just fine! They can put me in a coffee can when the time comes!"

Nancy, you'll be pleased to know that there's a superior alternative to the coffee can urn. It's a glass urn I've named, "Remains To Be Seen". Along with this fine product, I'm offering enlightened shoppers my antidote to the well known dairy substitute Coffee Mate, which I call, "Cream Mate". It comes in an urn shaped container suitable for your ashes, should you choose not to purchase both of my products.

Congratulations on your enlightenment and welcome to illusion-free existence.

I wouldn't go patting myself on the back for recognizing that Life is exactly and precisely what it looks and feels like, cc. There is no advantage to "enlightenment" (so-called), nor is there any disadvantage to spending one's entire lifetime believing in things that are simply not true.

Enjoy everything while you can - it will not last.

People always think in yes and no's.

Always dualistic debate.

Afterlife, or no afterlife.

But, what if there is Something Else
we have not considered ?

Mike,

While reading your words here I was blown away where they were pointing at. You are right, the concepts of whether there is a life after death or not, are only found within the restraints of our mind. Could there be something else besides life or death found outside the perimeter of our puny mind? Why do we limit dying to concepts found in this life as we know it or could imagine it to be? Is it possible that when we die we go into another dimension outside the limitations of our mind? Why do we use our subjective reference point in life as a place to determine what death is? Maybe dying is beyond our thoughts of life or death?

"Is it possible that when we die we go into another dimension outside the limitations of our mind?"

If death is a transition to some higher, less limited consciousness than what you are at present, would that higher plane of consciousness want you to believe in it?

If death is a transition to some higher, less limited consciousness than what you are at present, would that higher plane of consciousness want you to believe in it?

I am not sure what you are getting at cc but my answer to "your specific question" is that I very much doubt that something after death would want me to believe in it.

"I very much doubt that something after death would want me to believe in it."

Yet you entertain the possibility that death may be, "another dimension outside the limitations of our mind". Why? If you hope your death might be your promotion and not your negation, just say so. If you can't abide the idea of your eventual non-existence, and you imagine your death might be your promotion to something more, something greater, less limited, could it be because you don't know what you are to begin with?

Hi Shawn,

Yes, our minds are puny. No one knows
if there is a God or afterlife.

There may be Something Else completely
beyond our comprehension.

And, it may be possible to contact this
Something Else right here and right now.

People are hypnotised. People are in a box
with duality debates.

That we ourselves do not know, does not
mean we may not be able to contact Something Else
right here and right now that does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

If you can't abide the idea of your eventual non-existence, and you imagine your death might be your promotion to something more, something greater, less limited, could it be because you don't know what you are to begin with?


With respect CC, I now know what you are trying to get at. You have a belief that when we die we experience non-existence. You also have assumed that my post is a belief that after death I plan on receiving some kind of promotion. If you read my post with an open mind :-), it is about the possibility about death being beyond our mind's sphere which your words are preceding from.

The only trouble with admitting that there may or may not be "something else" that we are currently unable to recognize is that it does nothing to alter the fact that our present situation is unsatisfactory.

Unless that "something else" could make suffering and death totally acceptable. Even the most fervent of beliefs have not done that.

Hi Willie,
The reason I present the idea
of Something Else is because
it may have a direct effect on reality
right here and now.

Not philosophy, but daily life.

You peope don't realize it, but
I have performed an experiment here.
The results were quite interesting.

My conclusions are you people are about
10 years behind the curve.

You are just at the point where you reject
gurus and pass off all philosophy as bunk.

My congratulations. You people have wised up.

And, you are correct, it is all bunk.

That's why I have U G Krishnamuti on
my website.

This is your very first baby steps toward
reality. Some of you here are even enlightened
and understand there is no
self.

Now I want to piss all of you off
and tell
you that you are on your first step, not
your last.

You are all just babes in the woods.

But, this will all change in a decade.

"You have a belief that when we die we experience non-existence."

---What would be the origin of this belief system? How does one engage in "experiencing" after we die? This implies that there is a type of experiencing outside or independent of one's death.

"With respect CC, I now know what you are trying to get at. You have a belief that when we die we experience non-existence."

With respect, Shawn, you have misunderstood. Non-existence is non-experience. It's impossible to imagine your eventual non-existence, but if you can allow for the possibility that you can come to a complete and total end, ceasing to exist in any form, never to arise again, you won't bother entertaining other more comforting notions.

To fully acknowledge the meaning of death is to put wishful thinking out of its misery.

CC,

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't know. My mind is just incapable of figuring it out to know for sure. It looks like your mind has cleverly figured it out. Congratulations.

And a big congratulations to you Mike for being so much more spiritually evolved than everyone else here on this forum. Thanks for leading us along and then coming out with such an enlightening punchline. Our lives are indebted to you.

Shawn, my own attitude is that death, and a possible afterlife, isn't something that can be figured out. It will happen to each of us. Dying will be experienced (if we're conscious while dying). Death likely won't be, as cc argues.

I think you're correct in believing that anything is possible. But not everything is probable. The evidence lies in the direction of "death is the end, forever and ever, non-existence without end." Yet I can understand why people want to embrace the possibility of that being wrong.

However, it isn't defensible to equate the probable'ness of no life after death, with the possibie'ness of life after death. Every person who has ever lived has died, with no demonstrable evidence of them living on after death. So the odds are strongly in favor of "this is the end."

Saying "we can't be sure..." ignores the evidence of death, and the lack of evidence of life after death.

Hi Shawn,
There are two very intelligent people
on this club. Tucson and Tao.

They are rarely here. But,
when they are I suggest you strike up a conversation
with them.

My modus operadi is to take the opposite
side of arguments, so that the person will
start doubting their conclusions.

When they reach the point they realize
they don't known anything ..... this is the
point at which they may realize there
is Something Else that does.

Something completely unexpected.

Brian,

Thanks for interjecting your thoughts regarding death. You are a fan of Taoism. Chuang Tzu once said, Can a frog in a well know what the ocean is? A frog that has lived his life in a well surely cannot know what the ocean is. Does this mean because of the lack of evidence in a well that an ocean exist that most likely an ocean doesn't exist? Should the lack of evidence of what we clearly do not know be the basis of a conclusion as in showing favoritism that "this is the end"?

Saying "we can't be sure" does not ignore the evidence that death is looming. I'm not sure about what death is but I am surely convinced that I will die.

Einstein once said, "I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being".

"I'm not sure about what death is but I am surely convinced that I will die."

You might as well say you don't know what life is but you're convinced you're alive.

If you're going to consider what death might be, you must allow for the possibility that it is the total and complete end of you, or hope that it might be something else. You are doing the latter, and you're trying to justify it by pretending you're being more reasonable than wishful.

No, we can't know what death is and death itself may not enlighten us, but you can die psychologically and live without illusion, or you can comfort yourself endlessly with hopeful speculation.

Nietzsche,
The most famous atheist of all time,
believed in an afterlife.

Eternal recurrance. That we re live our lives over and over.

Gurdjieff group believe the same, except
you can alter this life by becomming more
conscious each time in their theory.

Praise belongs to Allah, before whose oneness there is no before, unless the before is He, and after whose singleness there is no after, unless the after is He. He is, and there is not with Him any before or after, above or below, closeness or distance, how or where or when, time or moment or duration, manifested existence or place. And He is now as He has always been. He is the one without oneness and the single without singleness. He is not composed of name and named, for His name is Him and His named is Him and there is no name or named other than Him. He is the first without firstness and the last without lastness. He is the apparent without appearance and the hidden without hiddenness. I mean that He is the very existence of the letters of the names the first and the last, the hidden and the apparent. There is no first or last, apparent or hidden except Him, without the letters which form these divine names becoming Him or His becoming these letters.

Understand this so as not to make the mistake of those who believe in incarnation. He is not in anything and no thing is in Him, whether entering into Him or coming out of Him. It is in this way that you should know Him and not through theoretical knowledge, reason, understanding or conjecture, nor with the senses, the external eye or interior sight or perception. No one sees Him except Himself, no one reaches Him except Himself and no one knows Him except Himself. He knows Himself through Himself and He sees Himself by means of Himself. No one but He sees Him. His veil is His oneness since nothing veils Him other than Him. His own being veils Him. His being is concealed by His oneness without any condition.

No one other than He sees Him. No sent prophet, perfect saint or angel brought close knows Him. His prophet is He, His messenger is He, His message is He and His word is He. He sent Himself from Himself, through Himself to Himself. There is no intermediary or means other than Him. There is no difference between the sender, that which is sent and the one to whom it is sent. The very existence of the prophetic message is His existence. There is no existence to any other who could pass away, or have a name or be named.

He manifests Himself in His oneness and hides Himself in His singularity. He is the first in His essence and His self-subsistence and the last in His everlastingness. He is the very being of the name the first and the name the last, of the name the apparent and the name the hidden. He is His own name and what is named. Just as His existence is necessary, the nonexistence of what is other than Him is necessary. What you think is other than Him is not other than Him. He is free from there being any other than Him. Indeed, other than Him is Him without any otherness, whether this is with Him or in Him, inwardly or outwardly.

Know that He is never in anything, nor is anything in Him. He
is neither inside nor outside of anything. None can see Him,
whether with the eyes of the head or with the inner eye; nor
can any conceive Him with senses, knowledge, mind,
intelligence or imagination. Only He can see Himself; only He
can conceive Himself. None can know Him; only He can know
Himself. He sees Himself by Himself; He conceives Himself by
Himself; He knows Himself by Himself. None other than He
can see Him. None other than He can know Him. That which
hides Him is His oneness. None but Himself can hide Him. The
veil that hides Him is His own being.

He is not within you; nor are you in Him. He does not exclude
you, nor are you excluded from Him. When you are addressed
as you, do not think that you exist, with an essence and
qualities and attributes; for you never existed, nor do exist, nor
ever will exist. You have not entered into Him, nor He into
you. Without being, your essence is with Him and in Him.
Without having any identity, you are Him and He is you. If you
know yourself as nothing, then you truly know your Lord.
Otherwise, you truly know Him not.

You cannot know your Lord by making yourself nothing.
Many a wise man claims that in order to know one's Lord one
must denude oneself of the signs of one's existence, efface
one's identity, finally rid oneself of one's self. This is a mistake.
How could a thing that does not exist try to get rid of its
existence?

If you think that to know Allah depends on you ridding
yourself of yourself, then you are guilty of attributing partners
to Him, the only unforgivable sin; because you are claiming
that there is another existence besides Him, the all-existent;
that there is a you and a He.

You presume others to be other than Allah. There is nothing
other than He, but you do not know this. While you are
looking at Him you do not recognize Him. When the secret
opens to you, you will know that you are none other than He.
Then you will also know that you are the one whom He
wished, and that you are forever and will not disappear with
time, for there is no passing of time. Your attributes are His.
Without doubt, your appearance is His appearance.

Therefore, do not think anymore that you need to become
nothing, that you need to annihilate yourself in Him. If you
thought so, then you would be His veil, while a veil over Allah
is other than He. How could you be a veil that hides Him?
What hides Him is His being the One Alone.

The condition for self-knowledge is to know that if you had a
being of your own, independent of other being, then you would
neither have need to annihilate yourself in Allah nor to know
yourself. You would have been, as yourself, a God, self-
existent; while it is Allah Most High that is free from the
existence of any other God but Himself.

And when you come to know yourself, you will be sure that
you neither exist, nor do not exist, whether now, or before, or
in the future. This is the meaning of "la ilaha il alLah", There
is no God but Allah, there is no being but His, nor any other
except Him, and He is the only One.

Know that this existence is neither you, nor other than you.
You do not exist; yet you are also not a nonexistence. Your
existence is not someone else; nor does your nonexistence
make you someone else. Without being and without not-being,
your existence and your nonexistence is Allah's being.

~ Muhyiddin Ibn 'Arabi


That this body-mind will cease to exist is a certainty. All these cherished memories, talents, achievements and preferences built up over a lifetime will fade to nothing. Contact with all our loved ones will be no more. That it could be otherwise is a religious/mystical/gobbledygook idea.

But I think that Shawn is intuiting something else. Something that doesn't have to be supernatural.

Everything that we know about reality, existence, life and death comes to us via the cognition of an evolved mammal - a shrew with a bigger brain. It is more than a strong probability that what we know/understand/cognise is but a tiny fragment of reality's true depth.

Even now, reality may be multi-layered in ways that we have no cognition of - in the same way that the universe holds vast depths of potential understanding that are withheld to an earthworm.

So do I think that something of me endures? As I've said, no! But it's possible that the whole premise or question regarding this type of duality is false in ways that we cannot understand from our current juncture in evolution (and perhaps can never be understood due to the biological limitations of this particular bipedal species.)

Now I'm not claiming any profound insights into all this (I simply don't know) but when I stop to contemplate reality I do have a sense of the vastness and mystery of all this and my puny manifestation within it. And as far as I can tell, that's all that Shawn is expressing here.

"Nietzsche,
The most famous atheist of all time,
believed in an afterlife."

From what I know of Neitzche's writings, this is not true.

It's bad form to claim someone believed in something without providing the proof.

"I'm not claiming any profound insights into all this (I simply don't know) but when I stop to contemplate reality I do have a sense of the vastness and mystery of all this and my puny manifestation within it. And as far as I can tell, that's all that Shawn is expressing here."

It's part of what she's expressing but not all. The other part of what she's expressing is that she'd rather contemplate not dying than dying. Why? There's less reason to believe in surviving or transcending death than there is to believe in dying. Ever hear of Occam's razor?

Hi cc,
It is common knowledge Nietzshe believed
in eternal recurrance. The slighest check
would prove it out. He died in a mental
institution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzp7iCaWNvE

Hey tao, how are you ?????

It seems you are your usual brilliant self.

But, don't expect the people here to realize what you are saying for another decade. GRIN

My mentor, Jiddo Krishnamurti, taught me
alot about how people realize things for
themselves.

You plant seeds in their minds. Then one day
they wake up and say Hey !!!!!

You above all know people must think they
are the realizers of their own enlightenment.

They forget the people whom planted the seeds.

It's OK.

We want them to think that.

CC,

You can call me dumb. You can call me delusional. You can call me deceived but don't ever call me SHE :-)

"You plant seeds in their minds. Then one day
they wake up and say Hey !!!!!"

What Himmler said about propaganda...updated.

"You can call me dumb. You can call me delusional. You can call me deceived but don't ever call me SHE :-)"

Sorry...but why take offense? I'd enjoy being mistaken for the opposite sex.

"My mentor, Jiddo Krishnamurti,"

I've never had a mentor whose first name I couldn't spell correctly.

I used to believe in reincarnation. After I read Tony Parsons' book and many other writings on no-duality, I became uncertain. After all, if there is no person (I find that quite likely) then how can that non-person reincarnate?

For some, uncertainty is hard to tolerate, but I like it. The universe is, after all, a very mysterious business (I was going to say "place" but is it a place?) There is a lot we don't know about it.

I can't agree with the one who said "there is no reincarnation", though. It's very hard to prove the non-existence of something.

tAo's comment above of Feb. 13 at 12AM should not be missed. For me at least it is one of the best offerings ever posted on this blog in regard to the subject matter of this comment thread:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2013/02/when-you-die-thats-it-no-heaven-hell-or-rebirth.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c36d5bb31970b#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c36d5bb31970b

It's certainly a powerful offering.

We could replace the word Allah with Tao or dependent origination and lose some of its anthropomorphic tone. No need for a He or Him - no need for a personification or gender.

Better still, we could take it out of the 12th century and use words like Existence or Reality or even Universe or Cosmos.

We could, perhaps, capture its essence by saying something like; all there is is Existence or universal laws - and everything that appears is merely a temporal, contingent, shifting manifestation or modulation of that - without own-being independent of that.

We can acknowledge that this Existence, Reality or Cosmos is ultimately mysterious - or at least its ultimate understanding is beyond the biological limitations of one of its temporal manifestations.

Oh, and we can certainly be in awe of this - but no need praise it.

Jon wrote: "We could replace the word Allah with Tao or dependent origination and lose some of its anthropomorphic tone. No need for a He or Him - no need for a personification or gender."

--I agree. Dualistic language doesn't allow conveyance of these things without the use of objective terms such as Allah, It, He, God, Reality, Truth and so on. There is no such word as "thisself" nor can the word "this" be repeated indefinitely. Besides it would only be a pointer anyway. Maybe "0" or "X" would suffice.

The writer chose "Allah" probably because he was a sufi who lived in the years 1165-1240.

Sorry Mike W, i think u completely paranoid crackers in the noggin - when you talk about Something Else is this the illuminati or secret order or Negative Power or Gurdinder Moles - i lost track with all the bullshit, in fact my bullshit detector is tingling ... gdam i must be peter parker.

i'm not picking on you per se, but damn you can talk the kinda shit that spills over into other dimensions.

Hello Everyone,

I enjoyed reading your comments especially Rain Trueax. You had me laughing my ass off! Great one liners!

Anyway, I agree with living life to the fullest and enjoy what we can as nothing is permanent.

Nancy's all wrong. Human existence has HELL on earth and people suffer. There are many roles to play for a human being. You can't just be born a celebrity and not know the other side of life. God is the motherfu*ker who enjoys the misery on earth of his people. There are two sides to a coin and two sides to life. You need to see the good and the bad. Those suffering bad karma will be reborn until karma is complete. Once you are a worthy soul, you get heaven otherwise it's HELL on EARTH. Earth is Hell but not heaven. Those having a good life right now on earth are not facing heaven but an illusion. The truth is that if they mess with karma, they will face hell on earth.

Reincarnation is fucking true. I was REBORN in this life. It's not untrue.

"Nancy's all wrong."
"Reincarnation is fucking true. I was REBORN in this life. It's not untrue."

Well, may be, but where's the proof?

Shouldn't such strong assertions be supported/substantiated with at least some sort of evidence?

IMO, everyone has a right to have an opinion and live one's life the way one wants to. Till the time we know the TRUTH, everyone also has a right to continue to have a "sense of doubt" and a "spirit of inquiry" about anything that does not make sense to them.

aTo Salem a Lakem to you brother...Roger..o so true..Shawn why don't you comment more, you talk a lot sense. I like your name my son's is Shaan. Tuscan you are so dear, you remind me of one of my favourite charcacters...Don Quixote..Mike of course brilliant as usual..cc once again your comments go over my head and funny enough I do think of you as female...You come across a little B....chy

It funny when a person mocks another by saying they're for sure wrong and by doing so they commit the same fallacy by claiming to have the answer. No one has the answer to what happens after we die, just as no one has the answer to why we exist in the first place.

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