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January 13, 2013

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It's a challenge to be churchless without being churlish because believers and followers set themselves up for mockery and ridicule.

Good times!

Very insightful post and I also like the wit you displayed with that last line! Thanks for keeping us thinking.

Hey David,

Which satsang tape did Charan endorse Chand?

Also has anyone ever asked Gurinder regarding Chand?

You lay yourself open, retelling for your readers cringeworthy episodes from your past. I appreciate that a lot. Openness is a very powerful emotional force.

Your larger point is certainly true -- it's challenging to relate your skeptical, rational, intelligent voice to the diligent believer and disciple that you describe as your younger self. I think you are as hard -- no, much harder -- on yourself than you are on others, and for the same reasons.

Getting angry as a reaction is just animal nature. Nursing anger is a distinctly human neurosis, however -- I don't see you doing that from where I sit. I doubt you could write like you do if you were just an angry or judgmental person.

You lash out at stupid beliefs or thoughtlessness because you hate to see them in yourself, and you work hard to remove them from your sphere. That's what I think anyway, based on what you've written. Thank you.

Hey Brian,
Happy new year! Geez...no wonder you've relinquished your former practices. What a bunch of superstitious hogwash. Unfortunately, there are many RS initiates who bring their own peculiar beliefs with them into the practice of Sant Mat. And, you simply cannot talk them out of those beliefs no matter how often Huzur or BBJ tries to disavow them of their nonsense.

For instance, no matter how often either Huzur or BBJ has said that it is NOT the physical guru (Hindi for "teacher") in India who is God but rather the "Shabd" that is God. (For those who don't know that Sanskrit term, here is the guru's definition (not Brian's misinterpretation): "Before the creation, the Shabd was unmanifested and nameless. It then existed in itself. In that state it was indescribable, invisible, unknowable, and inexpressible. Only when it became outwardly manifest did it become Shabd. What we call Shabd is pure consciousness." This, to me, much more closely resembles what immediately preceded the Big Bang than the nonsense you and others of superstitious bent insist upon believing about your so-called "GIHF". RSSB teaches we are ALL God in human form, whether we realize it or not.

I really wish you didn't feel the need to paint all satsangis with your own skewed brush. Just because you went waaay overboard with your clock-watching, chair-straightening, feed your cat parshad-and-it-will-reincarnate-as-a-human, fringe beliefs, doesn't mean we're all like you were. Why, when Huzur explains parshad is just a sweet reminder of the Lord, would you lick sugar off the floor?! That's crazy, dude.

The RS gurus do not (nor do they claim to) read minds, hover invisibly over followers, or do the nutty stuff you seem to have convinced yourself of at one time. They do teach a kind of "Jungian", cosmic consciousness accessible to all practitioners of contemplative meditation (not just RSSB). But of course, you already know that and wrote masterfully about it in your book, God's Whisper Creation's Thunder.

BTW, you may not know, BBJ instructs everyone, in writing, who is seeking initiation into this system of meditation, to go to the internet and read all the critical blogs like yours before deciding to apply. He instructs them to make informed decisions before committing to RSSB. Now, that, I admit, I really don't understand because you post SO much misinformation. Like your depiction of the Dera Christmas party. Yes, there's karaoke; no BBJ didn't take to the stage & sing (there is no stage). It's a group sing-along of Xmas carols, Beatles and hokey songs from the '50s (How Much Is that Doggy In The Window). There're no solos or performance of any kind by BBJ. Ditto for the finance stuff. Huzur's daughter happened to be married to the 10th richest man in India (a non-satsangi). Her sons are currently listed as the 5th & 6th richest men in India. No sangat money is EVER spent on anyone in their family. They're rich. So what? If they were poor-ass indigents you'd be slamming them by saying if the guru is so spiritually powerful why's his family a bunch of poor-ass indigents! And to show how one-sided you are, you never mention the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital that treats hundreds (thousands by now) people who can't afford health care; or the eye-camps at Dera where hundreds of cataract & other eye surgeries were performed, all free of charge every year.

Really, I respect your decision that RS just isn't your cup of chai but the way you distort and misrepresent it, according to your own wacky, over-the-top, former behavior is really a disservice to the earnest and honest questioners who read your blog. If you're going to discuss & dispute it at least do so with some modicum of objectivity. Your personal "disenchantment" is just as much knee-jerk emotionalism as you accuse satsangis of.

I, like you, have been a secretary, and after 40+ years practicing this system of meditation can hardly believe we're talking about the same practice, which, while it has left you bitter, angry and scoffing (and a bit of a self-defined egoist, I must say) has served thousands, like myself, in ways satisfying, nourishing, and rewarding, without ever once being asked for a fee or donation of any kind. As you know, any satsangi may retreat at Dera in India once a year & are fed and housed for weeks at a time completely free. (And if you want to claim volunteering for dishwashing seva (Hindi for "service") or community vegetable peeling as slave-labor, you should know, most visitors don't even do that much.)

Yes, there are fools at both ends of the spectrum. Some of the satsangis who've responded on your blog with religious hysteria are at one end. You seem to be at the other. Thank goodness, what RSSB actually teaches is a middle path of non-violence to all living creatures, contemplative meditation, sobriety, and devotion to a personal ideal. But, I fear, you'll find a way with your enormous writing talent and superior intelligence to turn these virtues into some kind of conspiratorial technique for manipulating weak-minded victims of an evil, god-impersonating scam artist bilking widows and orphans out of their grocery money.

Not everyone is the father-figure seeking, guru-groupie, flower child you seem to have been at one time in your youth. Yogiraj? Really? Good thing you never crossed Jim Jones' path.

Sorry about the length of this rebuttal but it seems only fair given your many critical posts over the years.

a satsangi, you clearly haven't had much experience in Sant Mat. At least, you weren't around during the "real" Sant Mat of Charan Singh's guruship.

What I described wasn't weird; it was absolutely normal. Most satsangis believed as I did, because this was the teaching: the guru is God in human form; the guru places his radiant form within the disciple and can be aware of everything the disciple does; meditating for 2 1/2 hours a day is the greatest service to the guru.

You seem to have embraced Sant Mat 2.0, as it is called. No problem. Just don't mistake Sant Mat 1.0, the original form, with what you are familiar with now. And please don't disparage the sincerity of people, like me and countless others, who followed the Sant Mat teachings as they were taught by Charan Singh.

You are entitled to your opinions, but not to the facts. Your understanding of Sant Mat 1.0 is quite shallow. You may consider this to be my opinion. But in my opinion, it's a fact.

Sorry Brian, but you're wrong.

I've been a satsangi since 1970 and was often in the company of Huzur Charan Singh both on his tour here and at Dera, right up until a few months before he died.

2 1/2 hours (at least) of meditation a day, yes, the highest service to the guru but, as Charan ji taught with the greatest humility, not himself but to the Shabd Guru.

Aware of everything the disciple does, yes, but not as in hovering ghost-like somewhere outside the bathroom door but within the cosmic consciousness of oneness exemplified in many aspects of quantum physics. Were those the words used, no. He used the example of the raindrops separate from but at one with the ocean; and the ray separate but as one with the sun; all part & parcel of the same consciousness. (I was at Dera in '89 when in evening Q & A someone asked Huzur if the guru heard our prayers when we prayed? He replied that no, "prayer is only the mind speaking to itself". So, tell me, was that your so-called Sant Mat 1.0 or 2.0?)

The guru as God in human form, yes, just as you and I and every other human is. How could you have missed that important fundamental upon which Sant Mat is based? It's the whole point of meditation, duh.

My understanding shallow; I don’ think so. Since you stopped giving satsang in 2004 and I have been giving satsang discourses for thirty years and written for the various RS magazines numerously I speak authoritatively, even though you seek to present yourself as the best knower of all things Sant Mat. And if so, how could you write that as secretary you were the "leader" of your group when you know doggone good and well the secretary is merely a volunteer grunt who sees to it that, as you said, the chairs get set-up, reads announcements, and sees to it the door to the hall gets locked after satsang. (Leader? You just can't help but aggrandize yourself.)

Have you ever seen the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy"? You remind me of the innocent unsophisticate who sees a Coca-Cola bottle fall from the sky and unable to fully comprehend it, imbues it with misconceptions, worships it, then disappointed, discards it as useless. Had you been better grounded in the sometimes difficult to grock subtleties and less wowed by your own superstitions and superficialities (you were afraid to dry clean a shawl lest you wash off it's "blessedness"---I stopped that kind of magical thinking shortly after learning there was no Easter Bunny and Sister Mary Frances squatted to pee just like the rest of us chicks) you might have found something more sustaining and tangible. BTW, the shawl thing...If you have any of the old recordings from Huzur Charan Singh, go back and listen to what he tells the girl at Dera who told him she'd become "attached" to her sweater because he had blessed it. (And you call my understanding of Sant Mat shallow!)

There is no Sant Mat 1.0 or 2.0. There are only students capable of nuanced comprehension, and those for whom paradox, metaphorical analogy and symbolic equivalence mean the gods must be crazy.

Considering that I have an Christian Orthodox background I can safely suggest that the 5 names were:

Κύριε
Ιησού
Χριστέ
Ελεησόν

Kύrie Ιesoύ Christe Eleeson Me

aka "Lord Jesus Christ Have Mercy on Me"

In general the above is considered the most powerful mantra/prayer in Greek Tradition.

The Deep Greek Orthodox Christians have MEDITATION.. It is called "νοερά προσευχή", Noera Prosefche aka. Mental Prayer.

When an Orthodox Christian goes to Hindu traditions to find something new called Meditation he is a fool.

This tool pre-exists in his Greek Orthodox arsenal and it is far prior to Sant Mat shit.

Whoever studies Ancient Greek Philosophy and Christian Orthodox Mysticism will find that everything is connected.

a satsangi, one thing that you have accomplished through your many years of Sant Mat study and meditation is...

A marvelous judgmentalism and lack of humility. Thank you for reminding me how wise it is to escape the bounds of religious dogmatism.

Wow.

Many belief-bound satsangis are fond of criticizing me because I didn't give the teachings enough of a chance, or practice the teachings properly, during my 35 years of so of Sant Mat'ism.

Now you criticize me because I was too literal, too precise, too exact in following the path that Charan Singh instructed us in. I missed the subtleties which apparently only you have been able to discern.

Well, congratulations on being an enlightened soul. You're welcome to your enlightened understanding. Me, I'll keep on enjoying being a simple ordinary person, living a simple ordinary life.

Regarding one of your judgmental comments: I used the word "leader" to describe what the "secretary" does because most people reading this post would understand that word better.

Yes, our government does have the terms "Secretary of Defense" and so on. But that overstates what a RSSB secretary does, while the role is more than a secretary who types, schedules, answers the phone, and such.

The secretary is indeed the leader of the local sangat. I know, because I kept being reappointed by the guru to be one. Of course, there is a spirit of voluntarism in fulfilling this role. That's why I enjoyed doing more work than anyone else for so many years, and why I happily gave years of my time and spent lots of money in service of the guru.

Dear Brian,
Your hypocrisy is showing; and your inconsistency. You, in nearly every blog, taut your egocentricity. You seem very proud of the fact that it's all about your favorite person--Brian. That's not a "judgement" from me; merely an observation you yourself seem quite proud of. I can only think you jest when you defend yourself by adjudging me as lacking in humility. Even you must find that absurd.

To his dying day Charan ji referred to himself as as the "servant of the sangat". But not Brian. Brian was the "leader" of the sangat.

You say that you "did more work than anyone else" and "spent lots of money" and mustn't be "disparaged" for being a sincere practitioner of the teachings "happily". I'm confused. Are you bragging or complaining? You can't have it both ways, Brian.

I have no doubt you gave the teachings "enough of a chance". Just the opposite. You're like a little kid who gorges himself in a candy shop. Then when he makes himself sick with his excess, and vomits it all out, wants to blame the shop owner for making all that damn candy.

And speaking of judgements, thanks for anointing me "an enlightened soul" but actually I have no idea what an "enlightened soul" is. If you DO know, please enlighten me now as I'd really like to know what that trite and often bandied about term means.

As for me being the only one to grasp the "subtleties", again you flatter me. There are millions of libraries, filled with thousands of books, written by hundreds of people dealing with the subtleties of man's place in the universe. I am certainly not alone in the realization that there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.

I do not, in the least, fault or criticize your personal decision to become an atheist. Some of my best, most moral and interesting friends are atheists and truly, had I not found RS I'd be one, too, I'm sure, as I certainly don't believe in an anthropromorphised sky deity who spies on me and tells Santa if I've been naughty or nice. What I've personally discovered is far more subtle than that.

Sorry you feel you wasted 35 years of your precious life on a fool's errand. I don't blame you for being angry. I'd be pissed, too, if I thought that. But I don't think I'd waste the next 35 bashing and misrepresenting my former fellow-travellers who are happy with their path.

Hmmm...on second thought, maybe I would. As they say, life's a bitch and then you die. Meanwhile, peace, grease and love to you, Brian.

a satsangi, you may have read lots of books, but you haven't read much of this blog. I'd like to suggest that in the future, before you judge people, you should learn about what you're making judgments on.

I'm not angry at RSSB or Sant Mat. I don't bash or misrepresent people who are still religious. I express my opinions and give visitors to this blog a chance to correct errors in what I say, or to disagree with what I say.

I enjoy playing around with my blogs. I enjoy life. I don't feel like I wasted 35 years on a "fools errand." I've never said that; you said that. Perhaps a little projection from your own not-quite-sure mind?
Don't know... just a hypothesis.

I don't believe it's possible to know, much less judge, someone else's experience. However, you seem to believe that you know more about me than I know about myself. You're mistaken. And also misguided.

Like I say over and over on this blog, each of us is entitled to embrace our own meaning that we find in life, but not our own facts about the objective reality of life.

I'm pleased to note that in your comments you haven't really come up with any factual errors that I've made in my criticisms of RSSB/Sant Mat. You just have had different experiences with the teachings and the organization.

Great. Diversity is terrific.

Enjoy your life, and what you find meaningful in it. I'm just saying that when you get all judgmental and ascribe thoughts, emotions, and experiences to ME which I don't have, and haven't had, you are making a classic mistake of religious people:

Believing that your way is the ONLY way. It isn't. Your way is your way. My way is my way. Understanding that is a big part of being spiritual, in my opinion.

a satsang,

What meditation experiences have you experienced in your many years of meditations? Hopefully, you can write something in your own words. I shall wait for your honest and sincere response.

Hey Roger,

I won't be explicit about inner experience even though I know some people see this as, I dunno... sinister or fraudulent in some way. For me, it's up there with making love to one's spouse, which maybe because it's wonderful you want to shout it from the rooftop, but it's just too intimate, too profound to share.

I will say this: there have been times when I have rushed through my day, couldn't wait 'til bedtime, so morning would come all the sooner and I could get up EARLY and back to my med. chair and do it again.

Other times, not so much.

But, nearly always (once one gets the hang of it, and has put in those MANY dry, fruitless mornings) the joy is enough to keep me coming back for more.

a satsangi, that's EXACTLY how I feel about longboard land paddling! Joy! Uplift! Exaltation! Oneness with the cosmos! Check me out:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2013/01/videos-of-my-longboard-land-paddling-at-64-years-young.html

Lots of ways to enlightenment. Lots of ways...

Yes yes yes different strokes for different folks! For my cousin it's Tai Chi. It transcends him! (Amazing, the stories he tells me about his Sensai--hope that's the right term.)

By no means is contemplative meditation meant for everyone. It's whatever elevates the ehh... soul, the spirit, the chi, the inner man or woman. The universe is startling in its diversity with something for every someone fortunate enough to know that their bliss is out there, or in here, waiting for them.

I too have been deep into Tai Chi for about eight years. Meditation in movement. Or moving meditation. Same difference. Tai Chi is Taoism practiced as a martial art.

Physicalized philosophy, which appeals to me a lot. You can fool yourself, and others, with mental B.S. But the body don't lie. You either can do something physical, or you can't.

Brian, you have enticed me with regards to the paddling, I love stuff like that. Also the area in your video which I assume is Oregon looks great! I'm from the UK, so there's not much like that over here.
You should try trampolining, it might seem a bit kiddy but its actual real fun, this is what life is about isn't it? Having fun.

I might try Tai Chi one day, i'm more into bodybuilding/powerlifitng, but soon want to transition over to combat sports such as boxing,mma etc.

Thanks a satsang,

You mentioned,

"I won't be explicit about inner experience even though I know some people see this as, I dunno... sinister or fraudulent in some way."

---I don't see your response as sinister or fraudulent in some way.

likewise you stated,

"For me, it's up there with making love to one's spouse, which maybe because it's wonderful you want to shout it from the rooftop, but it's just too intimate, too profound to share."

---would your many years of meditation experiences be summed up as a "making love" experience? Could a "making love" experience be a spiritual experience? I'm fascinated with your honest and sincere conclusion that, it's just too intimate, too profound to share. Finally, could you describe what the purpose of RSSB meditation is? Does the RSSB guru, require the RSSB meditation, not to be shared with others?

Roger, I too am interested in learning more about "a satsangis" making love allusion. Seems sort of contradictory to me.

In an earlier comment, this commenter criticized me for not understanding that spirit/shabd is universal, not personal. So how could coming into contact with a universal impersonal power be akin to "making love" with a person?

Methinks this is indeed the oft-heard ploy of religious believers who won't admit that they have no proof of God's existence, and want people to believe that they have had profound supernatural experiences.

I wish they'd just be honest. Either say, "I don't know." Or say, "I know, and here's why..." Don't play the egotistical game of "I know, but I can't tell you, because it's too personal." Dude, universal reality isn't personal; it's UNIVERSAL REALITY. If it exists.

Brian,

Yes, this might be a good time to have a review of what RSSB meditation is and it's purpose. I'm guessing, this information is given at the time of initiation. Surely, a satsang, with his/her many years of meditation experience can give further details.

a satsang did mention,

"But, nearly always (once one gets the hang of it, and has put in those MANY dry, fruitless mornings) the joy is enough to keep me coming back for more."

----is the joy, the love making? What is love making, the orgasmic joy?
----a satsang, may just be a long term sincere devotee, who enjoys surfing the internet and some blogging. One would think an advanced RSSB meditation person, would have no need for blogging, etc.

Roger, good points/questions. On the "making love" front, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to divulge intimate details of a sexual encounter with a loved one.

However, how about describing holding hands, kissing, embracing? And share a description of the loved one. All this talk among meditators about "I can't say anything about my joyful divine experience because it too personal and intimate" strikes me as absurd.

Like I said before, this presumes a relationship with a personal supernatural entity. Also, one which is embarrassed easily. And maybe even has sex organs? Otherwise, why all the reluctance to talk about "embracing" the divine?

Best explanation: it never happened. People just want to sound like they're better buddies with God they really are. (Better lovers is the better term, I guess.)

Brian,

Yes, good points from you too.

Well, let us just presume a relationship with a personal supernatural entity. And, the meditation process will develop a meditation experience of the supernatural entity. So, with this established, how does the meditation process allow the experience with the SN entity, filter through the human brain? If one does describe the experience, then it surely flows through the mind/brain/ego. I'm guessing, I really don't know.

I'm assuming the meditation experience is occurring outside the human brain first. Again, I don't know this to be true.

For some, a sexual encounter can be quite a spiritual experience. Maybe this is how females experience lovemaking and for men its more physical and egotistical.

The essence of Shabd (also known as the Tao) is LOVE ! When one experiences the Shabd within the mind becomes intoxicated with LOVE.

Geez, get over it fellas. Squirming around trying to vindicate your egos and intellectual prowess because you lack spiritual knowledge.

Gaz: Brian forwarded you my email and you didn't get back to me. I'm guessing you don't want to converse.
a satsangi and Brian:- I found your exchanges quite entertaining. Clearly "a satsangi" is a great writer....I find it interesting how some people hide under a cloak of "humility"; when let's face it....humility, love, being a Gurmukh....it's all so overrated. Some people do Tai Chi, some want to body build, some want to meditate...blah blah...the bottom line is this...there are two types of people in this world....those who have POWER and those who don't. Those that DO have Power need not bow before any man; need not seek refuge in another. They are autonomous, confident, calm and they take responsibility....those that have no power indulge in pseudo ramblings and turn to others to be their master and to feel awe and humility towards. I thought all you peeps would have figured it out by now....one should be awed by ones own ability to shape ones own life, ones own courage to grow a pair and demand the truth because let's face it...people like Brian and many others have done the work...followed the instructions on the packaging to a tee...purchased the product with a positive frame of mind and relentlessly tried using the product with much patience...if people like Brian were unhappy with what they got back after so many years of dedication and sincere devotion then there is clearly something wrong with the Quality Assurance of the what Sant Mat is selling. I hope Babi Ji has the humility to admit....there is no such thing as a bad student; only a bad teacher.
p.s. it's very hard to put ones thoughts across eloquently through written prose; so forgive any grammatical errors etc.
Enclosing...Richard Dawkins would have a field day on Sant Mat and probably rip Gurinder Singh a new asshole like he did to Deepak Chopra. I'm going to have to make some calls.

Where did I hear this joke?

There are two kinds of people in this world: those who think there are two kinds of people in this world, and those who don't.

POWER=testosterone?
Consider it a working hypothesis based on the provided data set.

The9thGate

So sorry man, my email account has been having troubles, I did send you a reply, but got an email saying it didn't go through. I'll try again.
Anyway you enjoying the snow? There is an extensive amount of snow here in the UK guys.

"The essence of Shabd (also known as the Tao) is LOVE ! When one experiences the Shabd within the mind becomes intoxicated with LOVE."

---So, the spiritual experience occurs in the mind? And, the mind finds it's origin where? The human brain? Or, some other place?
---Nothing wrong with the essence being LOVE. But what do you mean by LOVE? What do you mean by becoming intoxicated? Is the mind in an altered state when intoxicated?

"For some, a sexual encounter can be quite a spiritual experience."

---Yes, this could be true. Is this type of sexual encounter explained at the RSSB initiation?

"Maybe this is how females experience lovemaking and for men its more physical and egotistical."

---True experiences of lovemaking could/can be different between men and woman. However, what the f__k does any that have to do with RSSB meditation???????

A couple of points, folks. What purpose could possibly be served by telling anyone or everyone about my own experience, either "inner" or "outer"? How would anyone possibly know if I was telling the truth, or flat out lying, or brainwashed, or have a tumor on my temporal lobe, which functional MRIs have associated with delusional religious perceptions? No one will ever, ever objectively know for sure. Whatever I say could all just be, as Brian has come to believe, just a bunch of hooey. Truly, anyone who would take up contemplative meditation because I say I perceived this or that during meditation should have their head examined, because you just don't know and can never know, is it real, or only a meme spread from person to person within the Sant Mat culture? So a fundamental of RSSB is don't ask, don't tell. Just do it and decide for yourself. You, Brian, have come to one decision; I to another; both to what serves us best. (I only wish those who have been personally disappointed in Sant Mat weren't so intolerant and disparaging of those who have had their expectations met. And vice versa.)

Anyway, since we're agreed that what one experiences in meditation cannot be verified based on someone else's disclosure, let's take a more verifiable example of the inexplicable and extraordinary power of meditation.

Ever burn yourself on a hot skillet? The reaction is completely involuntary: you snatch your hand away, may holler, jump around and grab the closest ice tray! Now, do a Google search of Tibetan monks self-immolating. There are photos and video of monks, fully engulf in roaring flame, sitting calmly, peacefully, with legs crossed, backs erect, hands folded until there's nothing left of them but a lump of charcoal. How the hell do they do that?! What's their "inner experience" as they sit there?

The point is, there is phenomena beyond our "normal" state of consciousness that is, well... phenomenal. Do I aspire to serene self-immolation? Hell no!! Never! But, if deep and prolonged meditation enables such transcendence, then I'm going to tell the waiter--I'll have what he's having.

a satsangi, we're pretty much on the same wavelength. Everybody has their own subjective experiences. It isn't possible to know what those subjective experiences are like, unless you're the person having the experiences.

Great. I have my subjective experiences. You have yours.

A problem arises, though, when someone claims that their subjective experience is more valuable, true, or desirable than someone else's subjective experience.

If that claim is made, then good arguments and demonstrable evidence need to be provided in support of it.

Maybe you weren't claiming this in your comments, but that's how they sounded to me.

Meaning, I got the impression that you were saying, "My experiences in meditation (or those of other RSSB initiates) are more valuable, true, and/or desirable than the experiences you have had in meditation, Brian."

Now I assume you aren't saying that. Which means you and I are exactly the same: we're each having our own subjective experiences, neither of which are better than the other person's experiences.

After all, how can you compare something that can't be compared? Glad we cleared that up. For a while I thought you were claiming that Sant Mat meditation provides some sort of glimpse into objective reality.

a satsangi wrote:

What purpose could possibly be served by telling anyone or everyone about my own experience, either "inner" or "outer"?

...Since he is a disciple of RSSB, I would put down the words of Hazur Maharaj Charan Singhji which can throw light on the subject, though I personally have never been able to understand the message or teachings of these kind and soft hearted Masters.
“Every soul has a two fold purpose: First to help ourselves, to get redemption from the mind, to get release from the mind, to make ourselves purer and second, to help others to come on the path. This is a real disciple of a Great Master.

...Further in a Q.A. session Maharaj Charan Singh also said.
“When you share your internal experiences with anybody, you are inclined to give yourself airs, and you lose what you have. Also, when people know that you are spiritually advanced, they may try to take advantage of you, of your powers. Then you may be tempted and thus lose what you have gained.

So a fundamental of RSSB is don't ask, don't tell. Just do it and decide for yourself.

...If one is going to do it and decide for himself, how can he help others to come on the path, and if everything the disciple is going to do then what would be the role of Babaji?

Correct,

"Everybody has their own subjective experiences. It isn't possible to know what those subjective experiences are like, unless you're the person having the experiences."

---However, what is a RSSB meditation experience? Why is there a need for RSSB initation into a meditation process? Is the RSSB meditations nothing more than one's subjective personal experiences?
---So, these RSSB meditation experiences of the various astral planes or regions are nothing more than one's personal subjective experiences?
---How would a honest and sincere RSSB devotee know that their subjective experience didn't just come from their brain? Surely, the human brain can generate various experiences, without the need of a GIHF......
---Finally, why is there a problem with sharing one's subjective experience with another person? The other person is listening to what is being described, nothing more.

Roger, excellent questions. I was thinking along the same lines myself this very morning, before meditating. Well, probably also while I was meditating. Might share some thoughts on this subject in a blog post soon.

Maybe today. I never know what exactly will happen... which makes it irritatingly tough to pick lottery numbers.

Dear Brian,
BTW Please allow me to apologize if anything I said in the heat of debate offended you or seemed unkind. Who am I to judge you or heap coals upon your head.

I'm sure your decision was a heartfelt and difficult one, and I believe you loved Huzur every bit as much as I. Who could help but love such a kind heart as his.

So, please accept my sincere wish for your happiness; not that I'm going all soft and mushy on you now. I'm sure we'll perhaps tangle again in future and dance the mysterious cosmic dance with grace and style.

Be well, brother.

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Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
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    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.

Posts compendium

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  • Brian Hines: Return to the One

    Brian Hines: Return to the One
    If you'd like to support the Church's efforts in a small way, and also learn about a great Greek mystic philosopher (Plotinus) who wonderfully embodies our creedless creed, consider buying our unpastor's book, "Return to the One: Plotinus's Guide to God-Realization."

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