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October 12, 2012

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Interesting analysis, thanks taking a further look at it.

Read this near death experience and thousands of others from around the world on nderf.org. Need more "evidence"? Next time I have an NDE, I'll remember to take a blogger along.

YA, there's no mind and we are all hallucinating!

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/anita_m%27s_nde.htm

And while on this theme, read mine as well.
( no, no, not trying to rep my nearly non-existent blog, believe me.)
http://cotcow.blogspot.com/

What in HEAVEN'S name is going on?

Even if it's indeed an illusion,don't you agree that its a darn convincing one? At least as real as ordinary life, but with a twist of-course.

The Mind is bigger and more complex than any man's opinion and we have the freedom to explore it. Some even call it the Universal mind. Explore it!

No self, no you, no mind . . oooooonly emptiness here, and (for some on) the other side as well. Everything, an illusion. But wait! stop! sit and think, could this be the final deception?

If there is no such thing as reality, then there is no such thing as Maya and we are all hallucinators. There are no fairies, but if fortuitously you find one, do remember to kill it.

Janya, did you read Harris' piece? He has a Ph.D. in neuroscience. He cites the concurring opinion of another expert neuroscientist at UCLA. He isn't just "a blogger."

Harris is very sympathetic to Buddhism, meditation, and mystical experiences. But he isn't sympathetic about people who make unwarranted claims about knowing some sort of spiritual, other worldly, supernatural reality.

Like I said, it seems blasphemous (if God exists) to say "God is like this..." or "Heaven is like this..." when someone really doesn't have proof of what they're talking about. It's better to just shut up and be silent than utter empty words about the divine.

That's how I feel, at least. Harris seems to feel the same way. Truth is important. We shouldn't treat truth lightly, especially when it comes to objective shared truth. I realize that we live in an age of "truthiness" (Stephen Colbert's term) where everybody's opinion is valid if they just feel it in their heart.

Or imagine it through a dream, hallucination, fantasy, or other neurological brain event. But that isn't genuine spirituality. If we're content to accept fake as real, how are we ever going to know what reality really is?

To declare there is nothing on the 'other' side is as fundamentalist as claiming there is. The truth is you don't know and neither do I. Maybe there isn't. Maybe likeliest odds are there isn't; but since nobody can really come back to tell us, we do not know. I don't think fundamentalism serves us well whatever its form. To have made up your mind and only look for more proof of it just doesn't leave you open to anything that goes another way. As for Harris being a neuroscientist, that makes him no more an expert on what happens after death than the doctor. Why people can't settle for I don't know and enjoy exploring anything new that comes along, that's what I don't get. Is it that important to make a decision and then constantly have to prove it right?

It's easy to prove religions are wrong and that they do more damage than good. History and current events does that for us. Why not leave it at that? I guess because it doesn't sell books? On either side as the religious likewise try to prove why their religions are good.

I just wrote a blog on collected energy and how others impact our lives because we are beings of energy which is scientific. It's why we should care about our brothers. It's why religions have done us wrong as they preach a false truth to gain power. But as to what happens after death, there is and will be no proof one way or the other. Why isn't that enough?

and to argue we might not be real or exist is as existential as any religious view. Meat rots. We are real. Make the most of it for however long the body lasts, take good care of it, use that brain to the max in whatever way is best for you; and if there is more, well there is (heaven or hell) but if there is not, then we had a good run!

I didn't mean Harris the blogger, Brian.

I concede that This Must be Heaven is a very well written post but not necessarily one of goodwill. Not only does Sam Harris
farcify Eben Alexander's critical medical condition as an "adventure in coma", he compares Alexander's benign purely personal, uplifting experience with the likes of the inquisiton (prosecution, torture),Crusaders and fortune tellers.

Its always amusing to me when people who don't have personal experience of something proceed to discredit someone else's experience on a technicality;in Alexander's case, the cortex. Alexander himself in his article states that the human part of his
brain, the neo-cortex was inactivated. Then, within hours his entire cortex had shut down. This is what Harris disputes and rightfully so because when the entire cortex shuts down biological death occurs. When the heart stops beating, breathing and circulation stop and clinical death occurs. Biological death occurs when brain cells die from lack of oxygen, between four to six minutes later. Since Alexander's medical records are unavailable, we can only guess. However having had several near death experiences, I don't believe anyone who has had an authentic near death experience would want to lie about it. Therefore, even though Alexander was obviously not clinically dead, his brain was shutting down because of the bacterial infection. Also as a lucid dreamer, I can say that a bonafide NDE is qualitatively, a different bird and Harris in fact couldn't care less about Alexander's NDE or total cortical shutdown experience or no shutdown. His concern is idealogical. And he admits this.

Its hard to disregard Alexander's credentials. He is a neurosurgeon. His formative years were around neurosurgeons. He became an academic neurosurgeon. He taught at Harvard Medical School and other universities. He says, " I understand what happens to the brain when people are near death, and I had always believed there were good scientific explanations for the heavenly out-of-body journeys described by those who narrowly escaped death."

I recall, somewhere in the articles that Alexander's brain just switched off. I am in accord with this descripition. I was in a serious car accident nearly a decade ago. On impact my brain literally switched off. I even heard the click! It went offline, an instant power failure. The light in/of my entire brain instantaneously turned to darkness and I was shooting out into the cosmos amongst stars. I thought I was dying but I was back in a moment or two. Zoomed out and zoomed right back into my brain.

After reading the Alexander article, I find little fault with his account, potent imagery is an accepted part of an NDE. Also, not all of the cerebral cortex is neocortex. There are phylogenetically older areas (primitive) of cortex termed the allocortex. From what I've read in the Alexander experience article, it seems that his allocortex could still have been functioning. The allocortex functions are
olfaction and survival functions such as visceral and emotional reactions,encoding declarative memory and spatial functions.
Alexander now appears to believe that consciousness can function independent of the brain (the 4 to 6 minute time frame before biological death occurs).

As far as providing proof of the divine what can ever be acceptable to nihilistic skeptics? What proof of the divine is even possible?

The only way to know even a little about the divine is either through revelation or reason.

Those who share their experiences and say
GOD is like this or like that don't necessarily impose their view on others, but merely passionately state what they experienced. At times it even feels like a sacrifice of the self. However, I admit its easy to ascribe objective validity to one's personal but potent experiences, especially if some inner divinity tells one to. A stumbling block indeed!

***

I saw Eternity the other night,
Like a great ring of pure and endless light,
All calm, as it was bright;
And round beneath it, Time in hours, days, years,
Driv'n by the spheres. . .


The darksome statesman hung with weights and woe,
Like a thick midnight-fog mov'd there so slow,
He did not stay, nor go;
Condemning thoughts (like sad eclipses) scowl
Upon his soul,
And clouds of crying witnesses without
Pursued him with one shout.
Yet digg'd the mole, and lest his ways be found,
Work'd under ground,
Where he did clutch his prey; but one did see
That policy;
Churches and altars fed him; perjuries
Were gnats and flies;
It rain'd about him blood and tears, but he
Drank them as free. . .

Yet some, who all this while did weep and sing,
And sing, and weep, soar'd up into the ring;
But most would use no wing.
O fools (said I) thus to prefer dark night
Before true light,
To live in grots and caves, and hate the day
Because it shews the way,
The way, which from this dead and dark abode
Leads up to God,
A way where you might tread the sun, and be
More bright than he.
But as I did their madness so discuss
One whisper'd thus,
"This ring the Bridegroom did for none provide,
But for his bride."


Henry Vaughn
Hermetic philosopher and alchemist


Janya, you should read Harris' piece more carefully before criticizing it. Note that he doesn't say that people who have glimpses of the divine aren't being sincere in describing their experience. They believe in what they experienced. Problem is, their experience is brain-based, not reality-based.

I'll probably write about this in a blog post today. All of us have personal experiences which are deeply meaningful to us. But it is the height of arrogance to presume that what happened within our own brain is true for everybody. It's even blasphemous, because if God created reality, to assume that something is real that really isn't is to deny what God created -- substituting a subjective human creation for objective divine truth.

So I'll continue to defend God and Truth by challenging ridiculous "I saw god" and "I saw heaven" claims which can't be backed up with strong supportive evidence.

But what is REALITY?

Everything is brain based. We are yoked to the brain until death do us apart.

EVERYTHING therefore is an illusion, just like Peacemaker said.

Now, is there a something? GOD if you will, or the Self of all Humanity that penetrates these brain yoked subjective perceptions, both inner and outer and also spreads itself into the outside World? Is this the GOD of truth and the creator that you deem to be the REAL? The one you wish to defend against the onslaught by the "subjective human creators of some counterfeit reality?" Such a Being, does not need to be defended. Its huge, massive, invisible, only known by its effects. :) It can take care of itself and also others.

I saw GOD and I saw Heaven claims are precious personal experiences given to people by divinity that is interested in them. Like the Greek Titans who had their favorite humans and would gift them with all sorts of experiences and possessions. You wish to fight the Titans?


You said you are going to write another post? Oh, no. I'm going to do everything to stop myself from reading it. I just can't be investing this much time into this blog, as interesting as it is. :)


Janya, you're perfectly free to believe in your subjective god, but you don't have a right to expect anyone else to believe in it. That's the thing about reality: if it only exists in your own mind, it's not really real reality; it's your own mind.

Of course not, I don't expect everyone to believe other people's personal experiences! or their personal or non-personal "Gods."

Adieu

Janya, thanks for the clarification. In reading your comments, I've gotten the impression that you believe your "spiritual" experiences point to something objectively real for everybody, and weren't just dreamlike, imaginative, or personal.

I agree. Personal experiences are just that: personal.

My only suggestion is that when you talk about those experiences, use more words like "in my opinion," or "I feel, or "the way it seems to me." That way people will know that you're just speaking for yourself, and aren't claiming to know anything special about objective reality.

Ok Brian, sounds like I need to change my writing style. Those are probably good phrases to use. Do you use them often, when you write?

But no, my experiences were absolutely NOT dream-like, NOT imaginative but yes they were personal.So personal that I never spoke about this to anyone for nearly 30 years. In addition my awareness was as clear and heightened as it now as I write.

Through out my near death experience I was alert and awake inside myself, but disoriented, afraid and wondering what was happening to me.

What do you mean by, "that way I won't be claiming anything special about objective reality?

All this is getting so tiresome. You don't need to answer my last post. Really.

Janya, I won't. Oh, damn it! I just did!

have you heard of dr susan blackmore?
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/

she's got a PhD in parapsychology. she started out as a 'believer' in parapsychology and paranormal things (her PhD was on ESP), but became a sceptic over time as she could find no evidence.

she also had an out-of-body experience, before her PhD, detailed here:
http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00075&ss=1

interestingly, she had the presence of mind the next day after the experience to do a little fact-checking:
"The next day I tried to check up on things I had seen and immediately discovered that some were wrong. For example, I had 'seen' old metal gutters on the roofs of the college when in the morning I realised that they were modern white plastic ones. I had seemed to travel through rooms above Vicki's room which were not in fact there, and had seen chimneys which did not exist. This led me to all sorts of sceptical questioning, but more to elaborate my astral theories than to abandon them. For many years I continued to think of my experience as an astral excursion."

she's spent the better part of her career studying how consciousness works, both from a scientific external perspective, and an internal meditation perspective. (more recently she's moved on to studying memes, including the memes embedded in religion.)

//Eben Alexander's ridiculous claim that while in a coma, when his cortex supposedly was "completely shut down," he had an experience of heaven that must have been separate from brain activity.//

I'm an old warrior on this subject matter and I know a neophyte when I read one. Your objections are the sort I read a decade (and more) ago. Let's just go over your opening salvo.

//"ridiculous claim"//

Says who? You? Sam Harris? Based on what evidence?

//"his cortex supposedly was "completely shut down,"//

Supposedly? Based on what evidence? What constitutes a "cortex" that is sufficiently "shut down"?

//Hence, a soul travel of some sort to God's realm.//

Why use loaded terms like "soul" or "God" to describe Alexander's experience? Entirely setting aside whether Alexaneder's experience was real, you are already creating a number of red-herrings and convenient straw men.

//Rain, I'm not much impressed with near death experiences, especially where the person having one experiences things that fit with their religious beliefs.//

This and your subsequent objections are as stale as month old bread in a greenhouse. You seem completely ignorant of the (again, setting aside whether the experiences are real or not) symbolic, metaphorical and archetypal signs common to all these experiences, regardless of religious affiliation. If your objections had any value, then one would wonder why so many individuals who have had these experiences frequently become less religious rather then more.

//Gosh, what a coincidence. Out of all the many religious beliefs existing among humans, it turns out that this Christian believer finds out that the one he accepts is true.//

You obviously have a shallow knowledge of the NDE. In fact, almost no NDE currently confirms contemporary Christian dogma. It hardly takes much research to confirm that Christian dogma is antethetical to the NDE experience and that these experiences are largely considered heretical by the Catholic and Evangelical Christian community.

//He wants to claim that his brain was completely shut down, but how can he know this?//

This is a vapid objection. What are you suggesting? That it wasn't? Are you asserting that you, unlike any other neuroscientist, know when a brain can or can't create a lucid conscious experience?

//CT scans don't show the functioning of the brain, to my understanding. And even fMRI scans aren't sophisticated enough to show what really is going on in every corner of the brain.//

This argument is as nonsensical as the Christian who asks whether Hubble has seen into every nook of the Universe. God is still out there, right? You are asking that a negative be proven and you are filling in the gaps with your own God. Harris does the same thing.

//But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And Alexander doesn't offer up any.//

Perhaps not individually, but when the NDE is considered as a phenomena experiences by thousands of individuals, the extraordinary evidence you are opining is more than ample and available. To deny that it is out there is an act of willful ignorance. Mind you, at no point have I or am I arguing that the NDE is a true paranormal experience. I am trying to nudge you out of your own smug belief system. The evidence is there. What it siginfies is a matter for debate, but it is there.

//This current tale of almost-dying and going to heaven really is no different from countless others. All it proves is that the brain is capable of conjuring up some marvelous fanatasies, something anybody who dreams or has imbibed a psychedelic has experienced.//

This is a demonstrably ignorant dismissal of the phenomena. It reveals a profound ignorance of the testimonial difference between dream, the psychedelic experience and the NDE. And, yes, the brain is capable of conjuring some marvelous fantasies. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the brain is capable of conjuring these fantasies during profoundly traumatic physical stress - such as cardiac arrest and lack of any brain fuctioning that any neauroscientist would consider a base requisit. If one experiences a marvelous fantasy while ones brain is showing no discernable or measurable neuronal activity, this argues that consciousness is not produced by any model of the brain we currently understand.

//It'd be nice if heaven was real.//

Yes, it would be. What's your point?

//The problem, however, is that “CT scans and neurological examinations” can’t determine neuronal inactivity—in the cortex or anywhere else. And Alexander makes no reference to functional data that might have been acquired by fMRI, PET, or EEG—nor does he seem to realize that only this sort of evidence could support his case.//

Harris' points may or may not be valid. We haven't heard from Alexander. More importantly, Harris thinks that he can treat Alexander's experience in isolation. This is silly and leads to the kind of reductio ad absurdem that we regularly read from skeptics. The jury is still out.

If you want to read more balanced commentary:

http://thesurvivalindex.wordpress.com/2012/10/13/sam-harris-and-eben-alexander-proof-of-heaven-part-1/

http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/4323-sam-harris-lambasts-eben-alexander.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/134315754-nde-sam-harris-critique-eben-alexander.html

//I'm impressed with myself. //

Me, not so much.

sgl, yes, I've heard of Blackmore. I've written several posts about her. For example:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/11/susan-blackmores-zenish-theory-of-consciousness.html

Interesting researcher. I like her approach/style. Like you said, both scientific and personal.

"Like I said, it seems blasphemous (if God exists) to say "God is like this..." or "Heaven is like this..." when someone really doesn't have proof of what they're talking about."

But that's exactly what you did in your title, isn't it...

Jason, didn't you notice the title of this post: "Heaven is NOT real..."

I didn't say what heaven is like. I said that heaven isn't like anything, because there is no evidence that heaven exists anywhere except in human minds which imagine heaven exists.

There's a big difference between claiming something doesn't exist, and claiming something does exist.

As I've noted before on this blog, I can say "there are no fairies in our garden." I'm justified in saying this because neither I, nor anyone else, can show evidence of fairies in our garden. I'm not claiming I know anything about fairies in our garden, because there aren't any.

You should spend some time thinking this stuff out, and studying the scientific method. It would save you from making errors like the one you just made in your comment.

You obviously allowed your own "my way or the highway" lifeview to color what Dr. Alexander said in his book.

I'm just as turned off by traditional Christian theology as you are--and for the same reason as I'm turned off by your review: "my way or the highway."

Yes, Dr. Alexander is a Christian. But absolutely nowhere in his book does he give the exclusivist Christian message about heaven or love. Indeed, I dreaded that he would as I started the book--and I was pleasantly surprised to see he didn't even mention Jesus--not once. Much less saying he'd been surrounded only by people who'd "accepted Christ as their Lord."

He simply emphasized, over and over, that the essence of the afterlife, of heaven, of God, is simply Love.

Two of the three major messages he was given were: "There is nothing to fear" and "You can do nothing wrong."

Where, in this, is the traditional Christian message that *everything* you do is wrong? Where, in this, is the traditional Christian message that you have *everything* to fear if you don't become a Christian?

If anything, his book denies traditional Christian theology--and I find it amusing that a number of Christian booksites are offering his book.

I'm not suggesting that anyone *must* believe Dr. Alexander's story. But he's simply saying what *he* experienced. Yes, he wants to share it with everyone. But not as dogma; rather as having faith in love and in higher consciousness. (There's absolutely no penalty--especially not eternal torture--if you don't have that faith.)

Sadly, people who are adamant against belief in God are as militant as those who try to shove their own particular theology down everyone's throat, with a monster version of God to "encourage" them.

If someone tells what happened to him/her, and it doesn't align with your own beliefs, then--as long as that person isn't trying to "convert" you to their own beliefs--can't you just respect what they're saying without trying to rip them to shreds?

rubart, I saw Zeus in a vision last night. He told me that everything in the Bible, and everything you believe about heaven, is wrong. I realized that the Greek gods are true, and monotheism is false.

You've got to respect what I'm saying, because I'm claiming that I experienced it.

Will you? Does it make sense to you to believe in whatever anyone says about god, heaven, afterlife, no matter if there's any evidence for what they say?

How could you live your life if you accepted everything anyone says about anything? How long would you be able to protect your money from scammers?

Likewise, how long could you protect your preference for truth (I assume you have one) if you accept every vision, every claim, every dream, every imagination as if it was true? That's an insult to reality, in my opinion.

If God is real, God is very disturbed at people who believe in what is untrue so readily. That's why I consider myself a genuine lover of God, in the unlikely event God exists.

I want to know the REAL god, not made-up gods with no evidence behind them like Eben Alexander describes in his book.

Listen Sam Harris..continue to disbelieve...Heaven IS NOT meant for you. You can go along with the "other side". They will indeed be waiting for you. And when you feel the heat..and sense their jagged teeth that will surely cut into your soul...laugh it off it you can. I can assure you Sam...you will meet what you believe. You spread hate..you take away hope..you destroy the essence of the Soul with your denial and your "freedom" to speak in such absolutes...something you don't have a clue about. If a piece of heaven or beauty exist here as well as a piece of hell here..why in the Hell would it not be waiting for us? It's a reality. You idiot. You are an idiot. You really can't fathom reality...death...life living or life dying. They are all a part of the same continuum. But be blind my friend...when you call for the great Dr. to forgive you while you bask in hell..remember your arrogance and swallow it till you choke again and again to death. Readers...I am incensed by this man's arrogance about something he knows absolutely nothing about. Death is real..so is hell so is heaven. You all better pick sides while you have a fighting chance. Sam has his side. He's doomed. (And Sam...when that dark corridor comes crashing down on you...You better not change your mind and become a believer)..People believe in Good and live for Good. You will see heaven. I can assure you. From a Person who Ascended and though afraid to speak about it...I sometimes have too..Demons are real and hell is too. And heaven...a place for the Souls who love...care...and seek a genuine relationship with the "hidden one". Believe. I appeal to you from the depth of our Souls which run like the strands of time..YOU MUST BELIEVE. The Dr. Saw good because he does Good for Man. He was seranaded by what he deserved...the best that Heaven has to offer. Just live good..well...help man and you will see heaven. Peace.

By the Way...who in God's Creation actually thinks that CT scans..brainwaves...etc... trumps the Universe and the way it choses to create man and the mind of man? We are but little humans "trying" to figure it out...yet we act as if WE ARE THE GODS IN CHARGE of this thing. How's that? What is a ET SCAN over lifesource and existence? Who's the real true Doctors here? Death..heaven...life after..hell is far from our understanding and we are not to go around denying their existence. It's not wise nor smart. It speaks to our stupidity and arrogance. Just like back in the day..when people thought the earth was flat...Now we have kooks saying There is no afterlife...same damn difference. (Thing). For some of us...we know the truth...trying to reach the many who are blind is always a challenge. I for one have been...have seen...met the Great one...who indeed does exist...and listen...it is so much better to do something soooo simple..."believe" Just believe while you live so that your life when you pass over will be filled with the beauty that you desire in your hearts. What do you have to loose by believing in Good? If it does not exist? Which I find so hard to even say. Heaven...Angels...God is real. So is the book that list your life. It will be recorded...and you will have to answer to your choices. Anyone who does not believe who is reading this...and you still choose not too...I know that people are "blinded" and they cannot understand due to an innate sense of self rightiousness and arrogance and faithlessness. I don't try to change that...maybe death will be the only equalizer who will. And I am merely hoping that I will be ready and welcomed the second time around...after living an adult life with much regrets..it was easier to get in those gates as a child...with less sin than now. But I hope pray and believe that I will go the way of the Great White Light. Not the Demons that were also waiting for my Soul. I speak the truth. So does the Doctor. Think about it.

Cher,

Did Sonny go the right way?

Cher, thanks for your dogmatic "fire and brimstone" scary talk. Every time I read ridiculous stuff like this, I feel even better about not being religious.

"Demons are real and hell is too. And heaven...a place for the Souls who love...care...and seek a genuine relationship with the "hidden one"."

---why is the hidden one, hidden?

Despite the fact I would desire to answer much of the statements done at the main article and in the comments on this thread, I will start my participation with one anecdote, over which I would desire to have feedback from you:

Just this past week, my father died while he was at the street, because a car beated him. The incident happened between 20:25 hrs - 20:40 hrs. The facts about his fatal accident were that, while he was crossing at the street, some car running with abnormal velocity (around 70 milles/hr), reached him.

My family knowed about the incident around 21:15 hrs. My mom became to my house and my sister to the incident's place. The first person to recognize the body was my sister around 21:45 hrs.

What about that history? Ok, let's start with the main issue: My girlfriend, who lives 50 kilometers away the place where the inciden happened, became to his beed and sleeped around 20:50 hrs as he was with headache. While se was sleeping, one dream came to her: Into the dream, she watched my father crossing one street, and while crossing, a big car with two brilliant lights approached too fast to him; in his dream she watched my father getting up his arm and covering his face with his left hand. Because the impression, she waked up shortly while saying a long "Noooooooooo!". When she waked, there were around 21:40 hrs. Inmediately she called to my house thinking that possibly I had a trouble. My mother (who for that time was in my house) hanged up and told her my father several minutes ago were involved in a mortal accident. She became very impressed (as later she told me) and basically, she wasn't believing what she was listening. One day later the event, while I was with her in my room, she told me her dream. She's very dependable, there's no reason why she would joke with something like that and no one reason for making a tale, as she's (just like me) not religious and she's not paranormal believer.

I wanna say I'm software engineer, my mind is abstract and logic oriented. I've no reason for making a tale or any hoax. I'm clearly watching some event that current science would have too much troubles to explain, basically why, several minutes after the event, and through a dream, someone watches the incident without prior knowledge about the event, how it happened and without to be near the location.

So, for my friends at this forum: Can you explain me, in a scientific way, with a logic, rational-based approach, why my girlfriend watched through a dream the facts about the incident? From an statistic point of view: How much possible is that, without prior knowledge about the incident itself, she watched details about this one?

Keep in touch :).

I'm the last poster, as I'm not English-native speaker I did some mistakes while redacting my last message. I'll repeat my post here with corrections:


Despite the fact I would desire to answer much of the statements done at the main article and in the comments on this thread, I will start my participation with one anecdote, over which I would desire to have feedback from you:

Just this past week (to be exact, last december 17), my father died while he was at the street, because a car beated him. The incident happened between 20:25 hrs - 20:40 hrs. The facts about his fatal accident were that, while he was crossing at the street, some car running with abnormal velocity (around 70 milles/hr), reached him.

My family knowed about the incident around 21:15 hrs. My mom became to my house and my sister to the incident's place. The first person to recognize the body was my sister around 21:45 hrs.

What about that history? Ok, let's start with the main issue: My girlfriend, who lives 50 kilometers away the place where the inciden happened, became to her beed and sleeped around 20:50 hrs as she was with headache. While she was sleeping, one dream came to her: Into the dream, she watched my father crossing some street, and while crossing, a big car with two brilliant lights approached too fast to him; in his dream she watched my father getting up his left arm and covering his face with his hand. Because the impression, she waked up shortly while saying a long "Noooooooooo!". When she waked, there were around 21:40 hrs. Inmediately she called to my house thinking that possibly I had a trouble. My mother (who for that time was in my house) hanged up and told her my father several minutes ago were involved in a mortal accident. She became very impressed (as later she told me) and basically, she wasn't believing what she was listening. One day later the event, while I was with her in my room, she told me her dream. She's very dependable, there's no reason why she would joke with something like that and no one reason for making a tale, as she's (just like me) not religious and she's not paranormal believer.

I wanna say I'm software engineer, my mind is abstract and logic oriented. I've no reason for making a tale or any hoax. I'm clearly watching some event that current science would have too much troubles to explain, basically why, several minutes after the event, and through a dream, someone watches the incident without prior knowledge about the event, how it happened and without to be near the location.

So, for my friends at this forum: Can you explain me, in a scientific way, with a logic, rational-based approach, why my girlfriend watched through a dream the facts about the incident? From a probability point of view: How much probable is that, without prior knowledge about the incident itself, she dreamed details about this one (my father, the street, the car, and the beat)?

Keep in touch :).

Wow, I should have read the comments here before even bothering to write! Excellent comments.

Rain Trueax, Janya Barrish, PGillepsie & Jason - I thought your comments were very insightful, and well made.

Enyix Mexico - if you read this, sorry to hear of your loss....but thanks a great deal for sharing your personal story, really. :)

Both RS and your commentators are TWATS!!!!

Both side couldnt prove anything!!!! Twats

To BS hater... The social engineers who are creating divisions in the world will be very happy with the way things are on this blog. Yes both sides arguing and opinionated in thinking that they are right.

I include myself amongst the twats!... gotta laugh

Over and out from me...

Let's clear a few things up. Stop personifying religion. Religion does not cause problems in this world. It is man who chooses to argue and fight because of it. Man has fought over land. Do we blame land for wars? No. Also, nothing is objective. Absolutely nothing. The whole world around you could be a figment of your imagination. There's no way of proving that it is not. Rather, it is a universal self truth that we all accept. Some things, many things in fact, cannot be proven, just like the existence of the world around you. An afterlife is one the things that cannot be proven. If you choose to believe, you don't have any more or less reason to than someone who does not. One last thing. When reading the post, I noticed you said if the person found out that Hinduism or Buddhism was correct instead of his own religion, you'd be more willing to accept his claims. The problem with this is that you're eliminating the fact that his religion could be right regardless of what he believes. You're saying that he can't be right for you to consider his claims as valid because of his prior faith in it. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense, mainly because of the third to last word in the last sentence. Faith.

I meant to say his claims could be right regardless of what he believes prior to that experience. My mistake

Dr. Alexander does not claim to have realized that Christianity is validated by his NDE. He was essentially a non-believer beforehand, an Easter/Christmas churchgoer who did not believe in life after death, and none of his descriptions of the divine in the book conform to a specifically Christian cosmology. He describes orb-like beings made of light and says he can see how the idea of angels came into being but he does not claim they are in fact angels. Interestingly, he refers to "god" as "the Core" and also as "Om", for lack of a better descriptor. That Om is also the Hindu mantra invoked before prayer or during meditation lends even more support to the idea that he is not using his NDE to flog a particular religious view.

When the brain is dying, it needs to go out on a happy, positive, hopeful note, so it creates the illusion of moving on to a better place. What better way to wrap up one's existence? Why shouldn't you (the brain) enjoy the experience of total annihilation? It's the end, so make the most of it!

God is real. Who created us. Evolution? Who created evolouton? God our lord.

True "open mindedness" can only lead to the revelation of "human spirit". Athiests are just human beings who simply think too much with their miniscule brains, instead of exploring the thing that truly makes us human: the human spirit. Atheism, by the way, is it's own religion: the belief that all human beings are their own "god". Atheists, in my way of thinking are the most closed minded people of all.
It is SO much more beneficial to humankind to spend your life trying to prove that something "is" or "can be " or "can happen" than to try to prove that something "is not", or "can't be" or "can't happen". Take a look at history!

Laurie, I've never met one agnostic or atheist who believes that she or he is "god." Where did you get that idea? Probably from the same place you get your religious beliefs -- your own head/mind/brain.

Some things happen. Some things don't happen. Reality means living in the world where things do happen. Fantasy, wishful thinking, imagination -- that is the place where things don't happen, except in the human mind.

When something imagined does happen in the world, it becomes reality. Real reality, not just inside-the-head reality. So you have it backward. Atheists are the most open-minded people, because they open their minds to what is happening in the real outside world.

History is about stuff that really happened. Religions are about stuff that never happened, except as fantasies within the human mind. So who is more open, and who is more closed? Religious people are more closed-minded, obviously.

Yes, faith is all in your mind and fact is all in your face, but the faithful have got it upside-down and backwards. How do they do it? It's a miracle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxNw8OhmVZE

Every once in awhile Something Else speaks
out. It comes from the most unlikely
people ... at the most unlikely times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxNw8OhmVZE

No wonder JFK was assassinated.

Mike- that's quite scary stuff. I am guessing you do believe in the Illuminati?

The New Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Historically the deadliest organization
ever created.

If you want to find out how naive you are
about history in just one hour, watch this.
You will be shocked and stunned. My investigations confirm this astonishing video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8YUN1GcV-k

Yes , all the seven heavens are completely personal and subjective

Next you can share with those
in harmony with your ""ideas"" of places
circumstances

But there are these 7 time space refinements

I mean, when you are completely pure and loving
you cannot be lower than the so called highest.

I love dualism
I don't aspire to be the Source

To 'stare' to that Source , the Highest of the High

We all can try


777


-

Mike...Will do. The J.F.K. speech I watched last night had links to all kinds of stuff. I was up until 3a.m....quite enthralling stuff. Stumbled across a dude called David Icke; who I remember as a football pundit. Watched his infamous interview on Wogan years ago and I see now he has a lot to say on conspiracy theories, The Royal Family and a handful of stuff. What are your thoughts on him if you don't mind my asking?

Hi the 9th gate if you like David Icke you might want to check Michael Tsarion he is similar but goes into more detail.....Mike I'm sorry but I did not enjoy the link on the Jesuits...I found it a very one sided attact against all catholics not just the Jesuits.....I wonder if any of them have read his life story...Ignatius of Loyola that is...I read his spiritual exercises often along with Cloud Of unknowing and St Teresa Inner Castle, also most of Tolkien works...That is the catholism I know.

Hi 9th gate and June,
June,I was brought up Catholic and went to
Catholic school. I believe Jesus did not exist and wasthe the product of Josephus,
Jewish historian under Caesar Vespasian.

Jesus was created about 68 A D. His real
identity was Titus Caesar. 40 events took place in the life of Titus in his Roman attacks on Israel.

These 40 events exactly run off in historical sequence in the life of the fabricated character Jesus in the Bible.

Hi 9th Gate,
(Long post just blown up. Sorry)
Watch video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68rMTRhqKok


Mike:- Man I am surprised nobody has tried to shut David Icke up if you know what I mean.
June:- I will check out Tsarion thanks...

Hi Mike I don't know if Jesus really existed or not. He might well be a myth like Aragon in Lord Of Rings I don't know...But I'm quite happy with myths..That was my religion as a child...The only real thing in my life was Table Mountain and Devils Peak.I can't augue with a mountain...I only know that I love Him..There is no lodgic for my love...One thing I do know though that I will end up in a better place than where the gurus were taking me.

Hi June and 9th,

Icke is a facinating character. I first met
him about a dozen years ago. He had contacted me about my book and wanted to link it on his website. He did for a year.

We had a long email communication. He is famous for shape shifting reptilians. Ancient part of man's brain in our evolution.

He fills stadiums now with 10 hour lectures
and is the most famous anti occultist debunker in the world.

He is risking his life going after the
Rothschild Zionists (Freemasons), whom
control the monetary system of the world.

Radhasoami has a connection to the Freemasons and their goals are very similar.
Salig Ram had the complete set of Swedenborg's in his house. Swedenborg
was a major influence on the Freemasons.
The Mormons and Jehovah Witnessess also
have stong ties to Freemasonary and Swedenborg. Same initiations.

I have studied the Jesus debate amoungst
scholars for decades now. I have just
recently come to the conclusion, that
the evidence is overwhelming Jesus did
not exist.

Many preachers are telling their congregations now Jesus was a myth.
Honest ones.

Jesus is big business. Big money.
Jesus was the invention of historian
Josephus 68 AD. At that time Tutus and
Vespasian were Caesars proclaiming
themselves God.

The life of Titus is literally the life
of Jesus. Perfectly.

The gospels often use Josephus history
almost word for word. Their were 40 events
that perfectly match in exact sequence.

Beyound all mathematical probability.

Mike: You wrote a book? What is is called if you don't mind my asking?
I can't quite get my head around the reptilian theory.I need to do some re-search. I start thinking of that television show called V. Remember that?
Mike; you strike me to be more of a Quantum Leap type of guy...You'd make a good Sam Beckett.
On a different note...what did you think of the movie Wolf of Wall Street? Pretty dirty dealings going on there if you ask me!
June:- Again; I can relate to the love of Jesus. As a child it was just awesome hearing about the person who is chosen to bring goodness and love into the world. I'd go as far as saying that if it were not for growing up hearing stories about Jesus; I may not have gotten into collecting superhero comic books and eventually American wrestling. I suppose; deep down everybody wants to be a hero.
Oddly enough it was only when I started dating a girl whose father was a pastor of a prominent church in Holland (this pastor's father also worked with L.Ron Hubbard);that I started to have gripes with Christianity and some Christians. The same thing happened to me with the Radha Soami crew...the closer I got, the more ego's I encountered and I was faking humility. Looking back...I am quite ashamed of that. My pretending to be humble was actually just my personal insecurities seeking to find an excuse to exist.
These days; I have very brief moments where I feel humbled and in awe..I try so hard to hold onto these moments and let them linger...but just like all beautiful things in this world...they are elusive.

Hi 9th Gate,

There was a messianic movement along
the entire mediterreanean coast before Jesus.

From Egypt to Isreal to Greece.
The Romans fought many battles to stop
it.

The most famous about 68 AD when Rome conquered Isreal.

It was Titus and Vespasian
Caesar's whom did this. 1/2 million Jews
were killed in one battle.

Josephus was a jewish historian and traitor
to the Jews. He became Titus and Romes
official historian.


He incorporated the messianic legend to fit
Titus, whom claimed to be a God and the Roman senate made Titus and Vespasian gods.

Rome killed anyone with messianic scriptures. Rome replaced them with Josephus
history of Titus.

The teacher of righteousness of the Essenes
for example was another person.

There were many people claiming to be the messiahs of the day, to fit the legend.

In 325 AD Constantine called the council
of the first Christians and only 4 gospels
were allowed, although 36 existed. The
first bible.

Constantine believed Titus was the godman,
not Jesus. But, to make everyone happy,
they used the name Christ.

A common name of the coming messiah before
jesus. This messiah never showed up.

And, the Romans hated the Jews, they would never have proclaimed Jesus.

Jesus was Titus caesar. Titus helped
build the colleseum in Rome.

The dead sea books, etc, spoke of
another person other than Jesus.

There were lots of cults back then, as now.

Josephus was an Israeli Jew whom wrote the
histories for Vespasian and Titus Caesars.
He was in Israel when the generals Vespasian
and Titus attacked the Jews and saw it first hand.

Vespasian took him to Rome and became emperor. Then Titus became emperor.

For example Josephus was with Vespasian
when he was crucifying 3 men. Josephus
told Vespasian the 3 men were his friends.
Vespasian had them taken down from the cross. One of them lived.(came back to life)

There are over 40 such incidences in Josephus history of Titus, that exactly match the New Testament stories of Jesus.

And, they are exactly in the same order
and sometimes almost word for word.

Titus and Vespasian were declared Gods
by the Roman Senate and worshiped.

Constantine at the Council of Nicea only
allowed 4 gosphels in the Bible. Mary Madelena was Jesus chief disciple by all
accounts of the scriptures left out of
the Bible. She had a gosphel, so did Judas,
so did Peter. They were all deleted.
They have all been dug up now.

Jesus was seen as violent. He once struck a little kid dead and was chased up on a roof
by people trying to kill him for doing this.

Mary Magdelena was seen kissing Jesus.

There is even one scripture where Jesus had a homosexual affair with a young naked man.

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