« Make the mind cat-like (and win a gold medal) | Main | Anxiety stretches between real and unreal »

July 30, 2012

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.


Brian!

You should have credited me for introducing the above material....

Robert, I thanked you via a comment in the blog post where you left the links:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2012/07/another-inspiring-rssb-why-i-left-story.html

I do usually thank people for a link in a blog post if they've emailed it to me. SInce I'd already thanked you in a post comment, I figured that was thanks enough. But thanks again. I'll end a third thanks to the post itself.

Even though it's been years since I've left RS, I still get shocked to see stories like this. I still have a hard time believing the Dera or its representatives could be involved in something like this. I think I still have the innocent image in my mind that no matter how much I don't believe in RS theories anymore, there is no way they would be like 'normal worldly' people and indulge in things like violence (above article), greed (Religare, stocks, private planes, Pumas), coercing folks in giving up land for expansion of Dera, and potentially hurting the sentiments of Sikhs by destroying an old Gurudwara site?
I still have the naive belief that RS all in all is still spiritual. But these stories are good reminders that it is just my wishful thinking that there are Saints who are perfect, and have the answer and ability to live in this world in a very pure manner that is above and beyond daily human interactions. I've left RS, but I think I still have not been able to let go of the IDEAL that RS had presented to me at one time....... Oh well......sigh.....

quote Robert Searle
Brian!

You should have credited me for introducing the above material.

Moon: What do you want, an olympic gold medal for links. And the copy paste winner issss....


Moon...why not...an olympic gold medal please!

Brian...a fourth thanks...may be in order..ha, ha, ha! Or should I say LOL!

You have got to have a sense of humour in this world, or else you go nuts..to use the American word...

On a serious note.

I am not suprised about the news on RSSB. Evidently, Gugu, or should I say Gurinder is getting more greedy on the land "grab" front. It is sad that RSSB has reached this sort of level. When I first got involved with it back in 1980 it was enjoying a good reputation but now....things are starting to get of control..

However, I still hold onto the Chandian concept of what is going on. The real Master is not GS out there but the one within (ie. the Higher Self).

http://thoughtsandvisions-searle88.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/religare-gurinder-and-beas-satsang-part.html


The following may be of interest as it shows pics of some of the RSSB centres, or centers to use the American spelling...!

http://radhasoamiji.weebly.com/centers.html


NC says : I've left RS, but I think I still have not been able to let go of the IDEAL that RS had presented to me at one time ...

Well said. I've struggled with the same and I still probably am ( at some level ) though coming from an RS believing family makes it twice as hard.

I think the RS IDEAL is a fantasy. I wanted it to be true also but imo this is not the case at all. Best to dispell this illusion if you can, NC and Tara. This is not to say there is not a "oneness" or "great spirit" to tap into (so to speak. So, perhaps all is not lost.

Oh yes dear tucson, oh yes ! However, I do have some fond memories of Charan and the RS era he belonged to, when things were not driven by materialism and greed as they are today. Just last evening my Uncle and I were talking about the plethora of Guru outposts that present themselves in Punjab in this day and age, and how almost all the leaders of these groups have lifestyles that are more akin to politicians than mystics. We concluded that the Guru-business is recession proof, tax friendly and a safe haven for undercover luxury.

Tara, was Charan your guru? He was likable i think. The only thing about him was that i think he had answers for everything instead of just saying, "sorry, i don't know that". Especially the stuff about Jesus eating fish and drinking wine. He claimed that was just some kind of mistake of the gospel writers and that Jesus could not have eaten flesh or taken alcohol. But 2000 years ago in the middle east wine was easily made and procured because water was not readily available to drink safely and the wine itself wasn't a high alcohol content, likewise fish was part of the diet because in that sparse land there wasn't much else to eat.

It's quite amazing to me that you were so close to this organisation to the point where you actually knew these gurus in person. Seems strange because there must have been thousands of people trying to get darshan.

Hi David R,

Charan was the Guru of my parents and my relatives from their generation. Up until a few years ago, I had family members who were initiated by Sawan Singh and my family knew / knows Charan's folks pretty well.

Yes, Charan had an answer for everything and he very often came across rather apologetic for what he said. But of course, you couldn't argue with " the " Guru. I always liked Charan. In hindsight, I feel he was caught in the Guru-situation but he played the part with love and humility. He was a sensitive man and that sensitivity reflected in the Dera of that era. I'm glad to have known Charan, he was a grandfather-like figure for me. I cannot comment on his enlightenment status, but he sure was lovable and the Sangat loved him to bits. That kind of vibe is wholly missing in the Dera today. There was always the odd bully even in Charan's time, but this kind of out and out aggression by the Sevadars that you see today is the result of a deliberate policy change. GSD, in my opinion, had very different ambitions for the sect and for himself as well.

I know I'll probably get a lot of flak and rage from RS believers, but I'm going to say this right here, at the Church of the Churchless ...

The present RSSB Guru will renounce his gurudom in his living years.

Tara you said,

Charan was caught in the Guru-situation but he played the part with love and humility. ..

He had to play the part with love. Charan was not doing well in his law practice, he was a failure, and who doesn’t wants a comfortable, respectable life. He was much better off in his guru business than practising law.

Charan was lovable and the Sangat loved him to bits. Even Don Gurinder whether lovable or not is loved by the Sangat.

The income of the sect at present has risen to probably ten thousand times that it used to be at the time of Charan, even the number of followers are more than 5 times, so without aggression and policy change the sect would not have been have been able to reach these heights.

Why should one think the present Guru is going to renounce his Gurudom in his living years... normally no guru would ever like to do so, could it be because of some life threat,or illness, or some other reason?

We are all playing a role in life. I am thankful that the RS guru woke me up to the realization that I am more than this current role I am playing in this illusionary game of life.

Hence, to me, the guru shows the way and method of self discovery. This is what I learned from the teachings. If others who follow him tend to perceive him as more than they are themselves then that is their problem.

Nowadays the catch phrase is "we are all one". We understand this with our mind. If we realize it then that will probably mean enlightenment. Then do we still have a role to play?

When you take a close look at the current RSSB organisation - it is not a spiritual organisation at all. It's focus is to acquire property and to get the followers to do free work (or shall we call it seva?).
Gurinder singh is hardly some recluse who meditates 3 hours a day. Neither has he spent many years in deep meditation.
Swami Ji spent 18 years in meditation, Baba Jaimal singh spent 13. Sawan singh spent 9 years. Since then none of the masters spent many years in meditation.

Gurinder Singh is primarily a businessman and is using his marketing skills to increase the RSSB business.

However, this is a far cry from what spirituality is. Baba Jaimal singh told sawan singh not even to build the well in beas - because he would get attached and get bound to beas and one day it will become a place where people visit and it would become a religion. This is already the case.

RSSB is now a RELIGION. People follow it like they follow any other religion - blindly.

The followers are FANATICAL and they are no longer focussed on spiritual progress - but on status and fame.

RSSB is getting richer and is busy acquiring property and becoming an international religion. Pretty soon it will be the next sikhism.

Juan ...

Well, I'm against any sort of aggressive marketing technique for any spiritual sect, more so where most followers will never meet the Guru in person. You seem to think that Charan was a loser and you're probably more attracted to GSD and his Don-like ways, which is fitting of the RS believers of today, who, like you, are proud of the expansion and muscle of the sect. Therein lies the difference between the old-school and the new-school. Charan was against the expansion of RSSB, is all this disobedience on the present Master's part ? Is it okay to attack journalists ? Is it okay to push out unbelieving neighbors so that the Dera can have another few hundred meters of land ? If you're okay with this sort of strategy, then you're better off having that egg-glazed cranberry muffin and going back to everyday religion. The initiates that I know are very confused between the real teachings and the worldly realities of the sect.

I'm not defending Charan, but any shavings of the parmesan Sat Purush ( if in existence ) that were there in the RS fromagerie, are currently out of stock.

In my opinion, any mission, spiritual or otherwise that receives donations from its members must give back in an entirely tangible way. The poorest amongst the poor RSSB sangat save up to put something in the Seva box. I find that very disconcerting, specially when the teachings have been altered. Either there is a Sach Khand or there isn't. There cannot be one for the village Sangat and none for the newbies. One follower is seeking salvation, the other is on a Oneness high. What's going on ? Of course, you disagree, I know that. Doesn't matter !

As for the renunciation, I'm only taking a valid call. Maybe he'll set up things brilliantly ( infrastructural and organizational ) so that RSSB runs autonomously. Maybe that's eventually better than having a Perfect Living Master.

An Observer ... very well said.

Tara, you said,
I'm against any sort of aggressive marketing technique for any spiritual sect, more so where most followers will never meet the Guru in person.
...Its not that I’m in favour of this, but what I think is for that much rapid expansion of RSSB, this is the only way.
You seem to think that Charan was a loser.
...Not at all,neither Charan was a loser nor Don Gurinder is a loser, both are winners, Charan changed his business/profession for a better life,so did Gurinder, and both of them have done very well.
Charan was against the expansion of the sect.
...This is what he used to say in theory, but practically he tried enough for the expansion of the sect according to the situation and finances within his reach, whereas Gurinder had far more ample opportunities and finances for the expansion and he availed them.
Is it okay to attack journalists ? Is it okay to push out unbelieving neighbors so that the Dera can have another few hundred meters of land ?
...Most of the sevadars have to just obey the orders of Babaji, without any judgement.
If you're okay with this sort of strategy, then you're better off having that egg-glazed cranberry muffin and going back to everyday religion.
...Not only egg glazed cranberry muffin, even eggs, fish chicken and a good glass of wine is okay for me.
The initiates that I know are very confused between the real teachings and the worldly realities of the sect.
...The business of Masters is to create confusion.
In my opinion, any mission, spiritual or otherwise that receives donations from its members must give back in an entirely tangible way. The poorest amongst the poor RSSB sangat save up to put something in the Seva box. I find that very disconcerting, specially when the teachings have been altered.
...Like any businesss, one has to switch from one product to another according to the demand and supply,similarly don gurinder has also to do the same.
Either there is a Sach Khand or there isn't. There cannot be one for the village Sangat and none for the newbies. One follower is seeking salvation, the other is on a Oneness high. What's going on ? Of course, you disagree, I know that. Doesn't matter !
...There is Sach Khand but nothing is for free, you have to pay a price for everything,the newbies have to still work a lot and further the work of the disciple is to meditate after getting initiated, not to get entangled in the dirty tricks of the mind, only then these masters can shower their grace if they wish.
As for the renunciation, I'm only taking a valid call.
...Is it difficult for any of his family members or relatives to handle this empire?

I must say, Juan's comments come off as significant hypocrisy.

Juan writes (in quotations:

"what I think is for that much rapid expansion of RSSB, this is the only way."

--Why does RSSB have need to expand? Is is to gain more power and money, or is it because God is cranking out more "marked souls"? Obviously the former.


"neither Charan was a loser nor Don Gurinder is a loser, both are winners, Charan changed his business/profession for a better life,so did Gurinder, and both of them have done very well."

--So its really all about the guru getting a "better life" (a better "business/profession") for HIMSELF, is it now? Hah hah hah!


"what he [Charan] used to say in theory, but practically he tried enough for the expansion of the sect according to the situation and finances within his reach, whereas Gurinder had far more ample opportunities and finances for the expansion and he availed them."

--You mean he has had more or better opportunity to amass his own personal wealth. Don't try to hide the obvious.


"the sevadars have to just obey the orders of Babaji, without any judgement."

--So its all just the "orders of Babaji". Meaning that Babaji is the guy who is soley responsible. You know, like a totalitarian DICTATOR. But then, that also means that Babaji is the guy who is to blame for everything. You can't have both ways.


"Not only egg glazed cranberry muffin, even eggs, fish chicken and a good glass of wine is okay for me."

--So eggs, fish, meat and alcohol are good ("okay") for satsangis?


"The business of Masters is to create confusion."

--Not according to what all the holy scriptures and spiritual teachers since time immemorial have indicated. In fact, quite the opposite. So Juan apparently has a rather twisted and warped sense of what is the intent and purpose of the so-called "Masters". Enlightenment (clarity and understanding ) is certainly not brought about by causing confusion. Confusion has always been said to be 'the work of the Devil' (the sower of doubt and confusion).


"[RSSB] Like any businesss, one has to switch from one product to another according to the demand and supply,similarly don gurinder has also to do the same."

-- So then, RSSB really is nothing but a big "business", and it is out to sell a "product". But only if you are a sucker. Buyer beware.


"There is Sach Khand but nothing is for free, you have to pay a price for everything,"

--Not according to Radha Soami. Radha Soami has manifested everything for free. And there is no price on grace. Not that I have ever heard or seen. Thats why its called "causeless mercy".


"the work of the disciple is to meditate after getting initiated, not to get entangled in the dirty tricks of the mind, only then these masters can shower their grace if they wish.

--"shower their grace". that means freely.


"Is it difficult for any of his [Gurinder's] family members or relatives to handle this empire?"

--Well, seeing as how the family business [RSSB] is now (as Juan says) an "empire", I would think that it must require a team or even a company of relatives to manage it. Especially if they want to keep the money in the family.


tAo:
Good to see you drop in once in awile and do your thing in your own inimitable way. (That's a compliment).

... thanks tAo, it was beginning to get way too warped with the way " Juan " presents things, even visually. I wholly share your opinion, Juan has a rather skewed view of the RS theology, this one line is a real teller of that for me -

" Like any businesss, one has to switch from one product to another according to the demand and supply, similarly Don Gurinder has also to do the same. "

Quite a far cry from the days of Jaimal, Sawan and even Charan ! I still find it unbelievable that RSSB believers come up with such statements.

Tara wrote:
"I still find it unbelievable that RSSB believers come up with such statements."

--and even more unbelievable that they are OK with it...that Gurinder, a supposed perfect master god in human form, can be influenced by the winds of fashion, popular appeal and supply/demand concerns. In other words...marketing.

tucson, I agree ! I dumped the entire RS spirituality thing the day I realised that the path had become RS Inc.

For how many days this jounalist was hospitalised by the way! We are leaving it to our Loving God. God must give them what they deserve for these nasty comments to hurt sentiments of others. May God turn them into pile of rubbish and make them unable to make such a stupid and rude comments against others who have done nothing against these people. All bloggers are doing for purpose of having fun and out of jealousy. God please give them what you think is right - for their this fun.

A wise man said, " When dogs bark, elephants keep moving without taking care of anyone". We can not do much because backbiters are not public, they are anonymous. They are hidden monsters and also intruder in others's life. If they will come infront of me, I will punch on their face for insulting our Indian culture, values and all old Indian religions.

Anonymous, aren't you, um, leaving your comment anonymously? Aren't you "backbiting" people you disagree with in a "not public" way? I'm confused by what you're so upset about. Nobody forces you to visit certain web sites on the Internet, do they? Aren't you free to read what you want, and not read what you don't want?

Also, please be specific about these supposed insults to Indian culture, values, and all old Indian religions. I can't recall anyone ever doing such on this blog. Personally, I love Buddhism (the non-religious variety) which originated in India. I also love Indian food, dancing, and movies. Bollywood1 So what are you talking about?

I'm copying my previous comment on this post as well, plus, how could I miss out on " monsters " so please add that to the list below ...

Wow ! What stands out quite dimly is that the RS fanatics who have dropped by are displaying a whole lot of repressed anger and hate. Fellow bloggers, please be advised that I suspect that the recent hate agenda being posted against us is probably the work of one or two individuals who are hiding behind the comfort of multiple blog names. To call some of us ex-sats " dogs / culprits / devils " with cyber attacks of " punches " and wishing that we're reduced to " rubbish " and / or whatever else that they have expressed along the same lines is a clear example of how religious intolerance can ruin the human psyche. I must add that this kind of vicious slaying cannot come from people who have the courage of conviction or are real seekers of the Supreme Truth ... good day folks !

RS believers — please quit the sanctimonious BS about Indian religions, culture and values. India is corruption central with a deteriorating social and cultural fabric. The day you start recognizing this, instead of foolishly defending your nationality, the country may stand a chance of redemption.

I know that the RS trolls will jump all over my comment posted above so before they go down the dirt track I have to tell them that my views are akin to what Khushwant Singh has to say about Indian religion, politics and culture.

Please take a peek into the grand old Sardars' archives and you'll get the idea. Let's not start a whole new debate about how pristine your Indian-ness is !

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.

Posts compendium

Teeny-tiny Collection Plate

  • Brian Hines: Return to the One

    Brian Hines: Return to the One
    If you'd like to support the Church's efforts in a small way, and also learn about a great Greek mystic philosopher (Plotinus) who wonderfully embodies our creedless creed, consider buying our unpastor's book, "Return to the One: Plotinus's Guide to God-Realization."

Blog powered by Typepad

Become a Fan

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...