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July 22, 2012

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Very interesting post. I was most struck by the quote they cite from Gurinder Singh: "Sister, how do you know I am not a fraud?" This is a very revealing answer, primarily because I remember another guru (who I think was a charlatan)--Father Yod of the Source Brotherhood--giving a similar response. What is so odd about it is that it not only smacks of ego [Gurinder is supposed to be representing a path, not himself], but a twisted sense of humor, where millions clearly don't know whether a guru is genuine or not. So why indulge in such self-referencing given this epistemological cul du sac? It summarizes something peculiar about Gurinder and I think the writer's reaction was the right one. What kind of guru jokes about something that millions take so seriously and with a punch line that either way isn't funny? It is as if he is "playing" with people's emotions, just as he plays with thousands day to day lives when he doesn't show even the smallest courtesy of informing satsangis when he is going to visit.... but instead has thousands scurrying around and juggling their schedules (or relying on that infamous "phone tree"--where some are in and some are out) just so they can have darshan at a place which is built with their tireless work..... Yes, Gurinder lacks that simple virtue of respecting others and what they have to do with their own lives simply to accomodate his "gurudom"

Quite frankly, Gurinder's joking is more indicative than we may at first suspect. I commend the writer on being so honest!

In the comment above: "It was during a Q&A session when someone asked Baba Ji a question about how they could be sure he was real and he said, "Sister, how do you know I am not a fraud?""

--These were questions inside me over 40 years ago when I first came upon the teachings of RSSB. Of course there was no way to resolve these questions..unless the guru came clean and said "I am tired of this charade. I am not a Master, Saint or perfect guru. I am just like you and have no clue about the mystery of Life and Death."

I chose, for some 22-23 years to ignore this fundamental issue. Then, in San Francisco in 1991 I saw Gurinder Singh. I said, "Who is this guy, really?", and that was the catalyst for my departure from RSSB that unfolded over the next several years.

Every satsangi (initiated devotee of RSSB) and potential satsangi (seeker) needs to honestly face the reality of the question. I guess you can ignore it and go blissfully into the sunset. Maybe that is a good thing..never really knowing or caring to know. I mean, what if you found out?

"How do you know who the guru is?"

Yea, what a relief when eating out!!

I remember back in the RS days just driving the restaurant help bonkers over my silly inquiries about eggs in cookies, rennett, etc.!

In retrospect, it all seems so nuts!

BTW, I never found the meditation practice enlightening - period. IMO, it was "forcefully" engaging the mind in an effort to go beyond it. Never seemed to work from day one!

Tucson,

As you know, there is no way we can know whether the guru is fake or not. I think we have to ask ourselves, “Are we willing to follow the path and do the meditation in light of the very good possibility that the guru is fake?” Because given the high number of gurus out there, the chances are quite high that he is a fake. And, of course, we have to listen to our "gut" feelings as well.

The final blow that lead to my departure from RSSB came out of, what appeared to me, the Dera breaking its own vows - along with the fact that the meditation practice produced nothing of any value to me. It was dry and boring from the get go, with no guidance available on how to move through what appeared to be a perpetual "dark night of the soul".

I got into Sant Mat with the promise of experiencing the inner journey – thus transcending death with a full understanding of it. Well, after many years on the meditation mat, I’m just as ignorant today as when I started this whole trip. In fact, I celebrate the fact that I know nothing. It takes a hefty load off my back.

Love the post. I heard the same Petaluma story from a Fundie RSSBS'er.Reminded me of my fav quote "You don't know the Guru you only know his performance"

Bob,
I agree. How do we know ANY guru is "real". Even if they flew in on a magic carpet with a halo over their head. If we had the power to know they were real we wouldn't need them anyway.

I prefer teachers that show you how to find your own truth for yourself rather than setting down a rigid system of beliefs, practices and behaviors.

Although there were times when I meditated a lot I found RSSB meditation to be incredibly boring, difficult, and fruitless despite a few occasions of light and sound that were really no big deal. Yes, I was calm after sitting still repeating names for a couple of hours, but as soon as I got up and engaged with the world I was the same chump I was before with all the human frailties most of us possess.

I prefer just sitting or being in presence now. Many people do it everyday waiting for the bus, riding in a car, raking leaves, walking, waiting in an office for an appointment. I go out on the deck and just sit there listening, seeing, feeling the environment without any thought or judgement about it. I can't stop thoughts from coming up but sometimes I find I was totally absorbed in the moment without any sense of myself. This is about as "spiritual" as I get these days.

Tucson,

Sounds like you're doing just fine being "present" to life!

BTW, I've incorporated a sort of "mindfulness" practice into my weight training program. It's really quite amazing! I never knew I could feel so centered and still amidst a gym full of people.

You wrote: "I prefer teachers that show you how to find your own truth for yourself rather than setting down a rigid system of beliefs, practices and behaviors."

I completely agree!

Guys, you've took this the wrong way, as I have said in the past, the world evolves and so will Gurinder if he is the Guru.
Satsangis need to learn to be open minded, I've said this numerous times and I'll say it again. The older lot won't be much open minded, but the younger lot are.
It's like you've got driving directions, you can only really know that the driving directions are genuine until you've reached your destination.
Also I heard a story of satsangi who worked in the Twin Towers, he got booted out of his job 3 weeks before the disaster struck. When he got booted out of his job, he was very angry and didn't know why. Guys, this isn't a coincidence, I firmly believe there is a positive power whether it be Gurinder or not.

God bless,

Gaz

In the concept, and possible reality of reincarnation it has been suggested that people can change sexes. Thus, in one sense there is nothing unnatural about homosexuality as one may have inhabited females forms. But for whatever reasons "she" has decided to become a man in the present birth.
If I recall correctly the psychic Cayce claimed that a certain individual has been reborn as a woman as punishment for being a woman hater in the past life, or lives!

"...there is no way we can know whether the guru is fake or not."

The guru may be as convinced of his authenticity as the followers are, so there's no knowing to speak of - just a bunch of believers playing politics.

I also left after 20 years and I so relate to this post. And Brian I read this site often and along with stories like this, I so appreciate your reading, musing and wondering. Deepens me. Thanks to both of you. KW

".......each of us is already perfect because we were created in God’s image. To me that means that together with God we are evolving. And just by being who we are, we are always automatically becoming our future higher selves."

---what would be a future higher self? Are we currently a lower self? Brian, see if the author could write something on how he knows this? Fascinating topic.

quote Bob:

practice into my weight training program

Moon: The weights do the wonderness!
I feel you bro,moon

Gaz wrote in quotes:

"It's like you've got driving directions, you can only really know that the driving directions are genuine until you've reached your destination."

--It's an act of faith just like any other religion. Some keep driving and driving but the directions never get them to their destination. At some point they might decide the directions are no good. Or, they could keep trying and trying...trying to prove the directions are good. It's up to the individual, but a lifetime of following directions that don't work doesn't seem rational to me. Maybe even a little stupid or at best, stubborn. THIS is your life not the hypothetical next one. How do you want to spend it?


"Also I heard a story of satsangi who worked in the Twin Towers, he got booted out of his job 3 weeks before the disaster struck. When he got booted out of his job, he was very angry and didn't know why. Guys, this isn't a coincidence, I firmly believe there is a positive power whether it be Gurinder or not."

--Sorry, this is meaningless and proves nothing. I once knew a satsangi female who stayed late at a store as a favor for another non-satsangi female employee who needed to leave early. A man came into the store and raped the satsangi. True story. Is this coincidence? Did Charan Singh want the satsangi to be raped? Maybe so, to pay off a karmic debt incured in another life? Or this one? Was this a sword thrust turned into a pin prick? Maybe, if the rapist had a small penis.

Also, I personally knew three satsangis that were killed in car wrecks. I won't go into that.

Sometimes its better to keep silent than to tell others what you feel.
Because it hurts badly when you come to know that, they can hear you, but can not understand.

Here many peoples are those who hv left RSSB and were part of it more than 20,30 or 40 years like Brian,Tucson,Moongoes,Kethie Weston and others.... I am surprised that u guys hv looked only some part which is wrong.

Here is a story in hindi.. kindly read it and ask from yourselves that how many of u put ur efforts like this..

गुरु गोविन्द सिंह जी के समय इक शक्स था. वो शक्स न तो पड़ता लिखता ना कुछ और करता था. इक दिन वो गुरु जी के पास जा कर कहता है, गुरूजी मुझे काम देदो. गुरूजी कहते है कि पढ़ा लिखा है,.. जी नहीं. कहते है हथियार चला लेता है?? कहता है.. जी नहीं. इस बिच इक बंदे ने कहा जी घोडा सँभालने वाले जरुरत है महाराज जी ने रख लिया उस बेले को ..घोडो की देख भाल करने के लिए .. फिर उन्होंने देखा सभी घोड़े कितने ठीक से और अच्छे रखे है. गुरूजी ने अपने सेवक से पुछा भाई ये किसने रखे है. सेवक कहता है जी बेले ने. महाराज जी ने कहा भाई उसको बुलाओ. गुरूजी ने बेले को कहा भाई आगे मैं तुजको पढ़ाऊंगा. वो रोज एक लाइन देके जाते भाई बेला वाही पड़ता था. एक दिन गुरु जी लड़ाई के लिए जाने लगे. तो भाई बेला खड़े हो गया और कहता है लाइन तो दे जाओ गुरूजी. तो गुरु जी बोले हम लड़ाई पर जा रहे है और आपको लाइन कि पड़ी है. गुरूजी वैसे उसे कह दिया “वह भाई, बेला न वेख्हे वक्त, न वेख्हे वेला’. भाई बेला ने सोचा मुझे लाइन देके गए है प्रेम प्यार से यही लाइन जपते रहा. जब गुरूजी आये तो किसी ने कहा जी आप इनको कोई लाइन दे के गए थे. गुरूजी ने कही नहीं. यह तो एक ही लाइन बोल रहा है कबसे सभी बंदे हसना शुरू हो गए भाई बेले पर. गुरूजी खुश हो गए और सुई दिन भाई बेले कि सूती जुड गयी उस मालिक से. और गुरूजी ने भाई बेले को अपना ही रूप बना लिया. लेकिन जो किन्तु परन्तु करते रहे वो रह गए. तभी गुरू साहिब ने कहा था ‘सच कहू सुन लेयो सभी, जिन प्रेम किया तिन ही प्रभ पायो’. सो गुरु के हुकुम में रहने वाला ही उसका रूप बन पाता है.


How many of us wud hv followed the duties of gud satsangi, Did we..

Prepare a list of it
1. Do we love each other.
2. Do we respect and help each other.
3. Do we put our body,mind and money in human's sewa or help.
4. Do we give two and half ours in "Bhajan Sumiran"
5. Do we concentrate in Bhajan Sumiran with love and affection.
6. Do we hv complete faith in our God and Guru.
7. Do we give a single minute in Bhajan Sumiran with love.
8. Did we follow the rules which was given at the time of "Namdan".
(a) Be a Complete Vegetarian.
(b) Live a simple life.
(c) Haq halal ki kamai(earn money with honesty)
(d) Do not discuss or show about your inner spiritual progress and digest it.

Guru never told that he is god or worship him, he only says that i am a sewadar of sangat who are trying to be follow his guru's order to show the spiritual path to others.

He always say that first become an good human than become a gud satsangi.
How many of us did it.

What every spiritual book(like Bible,Kuran,Ramayan,Geeta and others)say that become a good disciple of god or guru.

None of them, only the essence of the books are Being gud Human....
If you are not satisfied with RSSB, than why wasting your time on it. find and discuss about a new way of spirituality.

But here you people will suggest me that we are putting here only our experiences and views about RSSB and their frogery with peoples and all.

But here you should discuss about new ways and approaches to god. or about them..
1. Who are we?
2. What we want?
3. How we can find God?
4. Who is God and what is the right approach or way?


Here is the duty of the publisher that change the topic of just wasting time on these nonsense things and show them a right way.

If i agree that you all are 99.99% right that RSSB is misleading people and just by discussing and putting your views and experinces(which can be right or wrong because many of your experiences are only other peoples experiences which are no head and leg) that you can save people from associating with them.

But you should just think about it that if it is 0.01% right that RSSB is only the right path and not misleading people than think where are you going.......

May god show you all right path. Please forgive me if i hv hurted anyones feelings.

" Was this a sword thrust turned into a pin prick ? "
" Maybe, if the rapist had a small penis. "

tucson, thank you for making my evening ...
" Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! " — this is the first laugh I've had all day.

What I think it so interesting is that people in RSSB actually meditate. LOL

I mean, I am officially a member of RSSB but I don't meditate... I need my sleep!

Also, I don't give a hoot about gel pills and how restaurant food is prepared.

I grew up in a fundie family and my sangat is full of fundies which is one of the reasons I don't go to satsang much. There is too much judgment.

I know! I'm so sinful and disobedient.

Anyway, it's that time of the year... rumors are swirling that "He might come" to the US for a "surprise visit." I guess I'll have to bear all the judgment I'll get from the fundies iif he does come because I'm not dropping everything to make myself sick driving all day, then sleeping through his surprise 45min. visit and then driving all the way home again. Surely there is a better way!

quote not a fundie:

rumors are swirling that "He might come" to the US for a "surprise visit."

Moon: pre planned surprise viset ????

Oxymoron

Robert, thanks for the links. I fashioned them into a blog post.

Counting the number of years being the follower of RSSB and had gained nothing at all is a baseless expression.

To exemplify, it's just like since last 30 years I was wishing one day I'll be having an empire setup like a big company 'Apple' or 'MS' etc.
I started following a great Entrepreneur who had achieved such an empire, and who is now a teacher who teaches how to build wealth and also gives his books to read and know which actions are required to attain such a thing. viz. disciplined life, discipline at work, sacrifice your own needs of the hour and pump up your efforts and money into the business instead of fulfilling your silly immediate needs.
And after 30 years, since I only wished I'll have something like that but since I didn't put the right actions required, I couldn't have that such a big company... at last finally I'd say these things:

-> My wish to have anything of that sort was a bullshit
-> It was totally fake.
-> The greatest entrepreneur I was following is actually a fake.
-> The books I was reading are fake and total non-sense.
-> All the actions required to achieve that thing were a total non-sense... like being in discipline ... meditating... vegetarian.. blah blah blah!
-> Oh well, after so 30 years, I've now decided to unfollow these stupid habits of being in discipline, sacrificing my needs etc... and WOW, I am feeling so relieved now after pulling myself away from that cult of being able to create an enormous wealth and a great company. That wish was a shame and that entrepreneur was a shame, he is a fake, his company is a fake and his empire is also a fake and he writes fake things in his books... I am so relaxed that now

-> I can eat any non-vegetarian, anyhow by eating vegetarian was not making me any money, and actually also it was very very very hard to always being vegetarian.. I can now eat any dead meat I want.

-> I can now be happy if I am not meditating... at least I will do it by my own means, if no meditation HOORAY!! if 10 minutes HOORAY!! and forget the freaking 2.5 hours daily, even doing 2.5 hours daily I wasn't making any big money, and actually also it was very very very hard to always spend 2.5 hours daily in meditation and trying to achieve the required thoughtless notion was next to impossible.. so why not remain happy without having the load of this action and forgetting the fake big wealth and company.


The fact is that the Articles and Stories on this blog are the experiences of those who had no experience at all.


Another fact is there will be so so so less numbers, nearly no one will be there who has actually (by the grace of God) got something behind the closed eyes and is discussing it with you.
Because, it'd very very hard that those who actually had some experience will come here and even try to give any clarification.
I personally have had very tiny, but extremely beautiful experiences, I don't even have words to share it here, I can't take a photograph inside by closed eyes... I honestly, I can't tell you how much sacrificing of this virtual worldly needs and how much time devotion is required even for the smallest of the experience, that the day that God, that Guru will really come to you, gives his kindness and will open up your Curtain. But, surely that happens and happens with an utter brilliance that is nowhere in this material world.
2.5 hours are not merely required to just sit with closed eyes and keep on thinking of all worldly bad/good things... that's nothing.
2.5 hours of thoughtless notion, there should be no single thought of worldly matters for those hours. Do it for 40 straight days, and you would for surely going to taste the flavor of the SantMat.

If you do little trust on me please trust me for God sake, I can't prove my experiences to you but I am honestly telling you, I was rocked even with slightest of light and it took months for me to absorb it and feel natural about it. The thing is that our body, mind and soul are not prepared yet to handle such a level of energy, by meditating 2.5 thoughtless hours, we are actually strengthening our inner self to be able to handle such an enormous energy.

Not being judgemental for you guys... but,
I am still very concerned about how and where most of above of you are heading.
After all every human being, and every living being is the part of that very One.
If you really do not want anymore of SantMat, why not just remain cool and calm and stop blaming and disrespecting it ?
A really very humble request, even if you are not following RSSB, please please do not say so so very disrespecting things for it or for the Guru. Abusing and Disrespecting him is not going to let you achieve anything. Instead, please believe me here, it'll be really really a wrong deed to show such a disrespect.

Someone, you ARE being judgmental. Open your supposedly enlightened eyes and read what you just wrote again.

You imagine that you know what those who have decided to pursue a different path than RSSB's Sant Mat have experienced, what their motivations are, how they view life.

But you don't know. You just imagine you do.

You don't know what kind of beautiful "inner" experiences other people have had who hold different beliefs than you. You don't consider that God, ultimate reality, Deep Truth, or whatever you want to call it can appear to different people in different ways.

You don't know whether there are better meditation approaches for people than sitting motionless for 2 1/2 hours repeating a mantra and waiting for divine light/sound to appear. (Thus you dismiss Buddhist meditative approaches, and many others, though I'm sure you haven't experienced them yourself.)

You blame and disrespect other people who don't think like you, while calling on them to stop blaming and disrespecting your belief system. What don't you practice what you preach?

I understand where you're coming from, because I used to be a fundamentalist true believer like you. I'm wiser now. Hope that doesn't sound to you like a putdown. I'm just speaking the truth as I'm experiencing it. That's all any of us can do.

Accept diversity. Reject the notion that there's only one way everyone should act and think. You'll be happier, humbler, more relaxed. Or keep on what you're doing. It's your choice. Just allow other people to act and think as THEY want to.

I often wonder why some vegetarians use their diet preference as a sword to vanquish nearly all arguments, even those not connected to health and diet.

Each type of diet has its pros and cons. A vegetarian diet, even a vegan one, unless accompanied by clear and rational, logical thinking often leads to delusions, fantasies, anti-social behavior and such like. A vegetarian diet, however aids in esoteric development. A meat diet, because of the type of protein it is,aids certain constitutions. If meat had not been eaten by humanity in its earlier phases/ development, we would all have been like slugs with no hardening forces. We need hardening forces as well as the soft ones. Yin-Yang. But eating or not eating meat is more an issue of one's constitution and not a critical requirement in esoteric development. When the body no longer needs meat as a food source, it naturally gives it up, and it seems like this would be a better giving up then a forced one by way of externally imposed rules-vows.


Janya, I became a vegetarian before I knew anything about Sant Mat. I'm still a vegetarian, though I no longer believe in most of Sant Mat.

Some Buddhists are vegetarian. Some aren't. Same with believers of all religions. To equate vegetarianism with spirituality is ridiculous. Like you said, meat-eating is part of human nature/evolution. So is not eating meat.

Personally, I believe vegetarianism is morally better than killing animals for food. I also believe it is healthier for most people. But not for all. And if I and my family were starving, I can almost 100% guarantee that I'd be killing some animals to eat.

I wholly agree with you Brian. I have been a vegetarian for nearly 35 something years and a vegan for nearly 20. Indeed, I too might eat meat if I were starving.

It is also true that people have even eaten their dead friends while shipwrecked or on frozen mountains, sometimes with the dying person's blessings.

Its a matter of conscience. When the conscience awakens we realize that all beings feel pain, all wish to avoid suffering. I think all right actions are based on this awareness.


Well, per my belief... there is nothing really nothing wrong in consuming non-vegetarian food as in specific comparison to veg, but yes it has a very important relation with the Spirituality.

I thought it was very basic and simple principle to understand how being Vegetarian helps in the Spiritual Journey.

The Universal Law is that every living being has to consume a living being to sustain life. And then by consuming anything (veg or non-veg), we are creating our Karmas. The small/big Karmas are created on the basis of what we've consumed. All living being are divided into the different levels based on how many elements (out of 5) they are made up of. Human Being is made up of 5 elements, animals 4 and so plants are made up of only 1 element i.e. Water.
The beings, made up of more elements we will consume, the bigger Karmas we will create of ourselves.
For our survival we have to consume something, and so when we only consume Vegetarian Food, we create very small Karmas for ourselves.
Every Karma has to be paid off, smaller the karma, smaller the debt.

By doing Meditation, we are trying to clear off the Debt of our this and older berths, Curtain raises on the Day when our debt is cleared off(by the Grace of God).

If our Curtain is already closed, means a lot of Debt, how sensible it would be to consume Non-veg and build up more excessive debt, which could have been minimized by eating Vegetarian ?

THERE IS NO TRUTH UNTIL YO DECIDE WHAT TRUTH IS, WE CAN DISCUSS ALL THE THEORIES IN THE WORLD BUT IF THERE IS NO FACTS OR EVIDENCE, ONE MANS BELIEF (BE-LIE-TO EVES SEED) IS JUST AS GOOD AS ANOTHER..... WE ARE TRAPPED WITHIN A PERSON PLACE AND THING, MEANING NO ONE CAN THINK OUTSIDE THESE THREE THINGS...IF YOU CAN CONTACT ME -:)

@Bishop Spellbreaker

Truth doesn't depend on your or my decision. Death is the truth, whether I decide or not, I will surely gonna die and so you and so everyone around.

The Truth never change. What changes is never The Truth.

Love this post! I am a recovering ex-wife of an RSSB uber-Satsangi. I feel as though I've found my support group!
Thank you all!

I was initiated in 1971 - it has been a love/hate relationship since the first day - and I have been on/off the path every since. It is refreshing to read these post and to realize I am not the only one with major doubts regarding RSSB. You may have just changed my life for the better. Thank you!!!

Real Meditation is managing to stay awake/semi-alert while falling asleep by focusing between the two eyes with simran, and listening to the subtle sounds thereafter. The books and the satsangs are meant induce the seeker to stay both erect and receptive in order to manage on his her own to go within.
Everyone struggles to achieve results in meditation, even lamas in caves, the Puranas write that evacuating the body is like the stings of a thousand scorpions. The Masters bring nothing new to the table: even in 100000000 yucas from now their message will be the same. So it is a life/hate relationship; pain/pleasure. As Great Master says "Bird is singing praises to the cage but when the door is opened it instantly flies away".

Indeed nothing new and if it is new like science you can bet it is false ;)

But the sound of the universe and the light of the universe that is our real master and I think the stream might appear like Gurinder or a dog you love. It is still the stream.

" As Great Master says "Bird is singing praises to the cage but when the door is opened it instantly flies away"."

---So a "Great" Master came up with that line? What would a regular Master say? Or, a below average Master?

The bird, using it's brain, figured the cage kept the hungry cat from eating him/her. Once the hungry cat left the area and the door open. The bird probably thought, f**ck this lousy stinkin cage .....i'm outa here!!!!!!!!

Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked and immoral person on the seat of a Guru, develop faith in him, his form too shall manifest and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints. You are not helped by any Saint or Guru, but by your own faith and belief.

http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/faqirchand/faqir6.html

You put a wicked and immoral person on the seat of a Guru…

…Already occupied by them. No vacancy.

you put a wicked and immoral person on the seat of a Guru, develop faith in him, his form too shall manifest and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints.

You seem to be saying that "a Guru" could be anyone because he's no more than what you would have him be, just a placebo, and in the same breath you refer to the Great Saints, which presumably, are not just placebos. Very confusing.

I think great master as an example of a great saint as far as I guess lyed too about all-knowing and all power. He just knew that if he said that he would inspire awe and love into people so they would create there own master.

So they are all lying but some are nive and good people that have extraordinairy control over this creation and some just fill their pockets. My 2 cents ;)

My pockets are filled with two cents, too.

This might give us a clue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akasha

Now ask yourself the question who said that there is no aether? Might the foundation of the scientific building be a way to make the universe emotion less controllable and objective scientific. Perhaps it is a psychoanalytic defence mechanism like ridiculing an idea. We are criticising a lot lately and ridiculing....
But there is a difference between criticising to control and to not let emotions in or objective critic. What has been said about Gurinder I think is objective and not a psychoanalytical defence reaction to his power because he really does not seem to have much. When the teachers say not to criticise to much they must meen to open up for their powers and stop fighting them.
Another penny ;)

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