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June 26, 2012

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Unless you're prepared to die, you can't help but fear death, so consult your things-to-do-before-I-die list and get busy.

It seems to me that what we really are is eternal. How can our existence be explained otherwise? If we will not exist forever after death, then we did not exist forever before we were born. If that were the case it would be impossible for the moment of our birth to ever arrive. Infinity works both ways. So, we just are but maybe not as we think.

The only possible death is the death of the ego and this psycho-somatic apparatus via which the ego sense manifests. But, as what we really are, unmanifest source, neither birth nor death are possible.

What's it like to return to unmanifest source(to die)? You can't return to what you are (die). It is just like this now if you don't think about it.

It is horror, horror, horror all the way. Not terror. Be there rebirth, heaven or hell or simply nothing, there is no consolation.

Dear Brian,
Maybe Vipassana or Mindfulness will help you,alone, or in some group.
Maybe doing meditation on it,make it deeper, then you can come to the dept of your fear.
Sometimes after some period of time it becomes softer or will disapear..

The key to peace of mind is the recognition of the perfect equivalence of existence AND non-existence. They go together and cannot be separated.

I am ready to give it all up at any given moment. If there is a problem, then it consists of the fact that there is nothing TO give up (capitalizations on purpose).

Being scared is natural. That will go away, too.

"Last night I had another of my Holy shit! I'm going to die and not exist forever! moments."

I just had one of those moments, started to Google about nonexistence and stumbled upon this article.

This feeling certainly fluctuates depending on the day. Some days I don't care about death and seem completely at peace with the notion of nonexistence and then there are other days like this. lol

I landed on the NDERF page today, and it offered some solace.


Accomplice to murder

Lovely early Fall day.
Autumn leaves , confetti on cars
Smileys toasting in the toaster-oven
Colombian coffee brewing

Pachi has grown fat
Neutered cats put on weight
Dog nail clipper awaits his sharpies
He's eager to walk and play

Let him enjoy his life
He's been cooped up
His harness 's too tight
Lumbering felines can't catch

Pachi walked in with a baby squirrel
Still warm but gone
My bad thinking or the Devil made me
No excuse - its glassed eyes now haunt

The people on this NDE site narrate their near death spiritual experiences.

http://www.nderf.org/


I believe in death and non-existence. While i was 15 years old, i will cried whenver i think of death especially before i go to bed. I will become non-exitence and there is no "me" anymore. For me, permanent losing of memory is equal to death. I don't know how to get rid of this feeling. I wish there is life after death but i am not able to convince myself for that. I am currently 31 years old and what i can do is force myself not to think of it. The feeling is really suffer.

I find the notion of non-existence a little comforting. Like coming home after a long day of work and falling asleep (Sleep is what I believe to be the closest thing we human beings have to nonexistence) living a fulfilling life and bringing it to a close with an infinite period of rest seems more than calming.

Another thing to consider is that fear of death and negative emotions regarding the end of life, like existence itself, are exclusive to living beings. It's probably like getting nervous before a doctor or dentist visit. It's frightening and uncomfortable to go through, but following the appointment all of the previous fears and anxieties are forgotten. Once you get past the period of fear regarding death and the thing you are dreading occurs, these fears will no longer exist.

It's a strange sentiment to explain, but I hope some of my examples will make you able to sympathize a bit with my views. Think of all the stresses in your life and the daily struggle to continue being successful evaporating. Imagine how much you love sleeping in - and what it would be like to remain in that state forever. it scares a lot of people, but I feel as if when my bell tolls I'll be ready to shuffle off to infinite sleep.I'll probably be exhausted from all of the great stuff here on earth.


It seems perfectly logical (and symmetrical) that we cannot have an "afterlife" [continue to exist forever in another "form" as taught by many religions] unless we have always existed before or have a "before-life" [call it a potential to exist of some "form".]

My logical (if not natural) reaction to the "argument" that "just as much as the religious are not certain of an "afterlife" atheists are not certain of "non existence" after death is to say an "afterlife" without a "before life" is unsymmetrical and hence illogical.

To illustrate this argument , as a 61 year old I recall how my deceased parents spoke about the joy of some of their life in the past or the stress of living during the second world war.My reaction was always "interesting!" or "I am glad I was not around then" .

However I find it difficult to have the same reaction about future events . For example when there are predictions like "In 2050 teleportation will be a reality (a la Star trek's "beam me up Scotty") or "we will have used up all our natural resources such as water and there will be wars fought over natural resources", I find it difficult to have the reaction "Interesting" or ""I am glad I will not be around when that happens"( As a 61 year old I will almost certainly be dead in 2050 for example while my 3 children who range in age from 24 to 30 will probably still be alive)

It is like we are prepared to accept that we did not exist in the past but we are not prepared to accept that we shall not exist in the future. Why is our previous non existence accepted so freely yet our future non existence is seen as somehow threatening? Is this a "natural human reaction" as some psychologists seem to argue or does it result from "religious indoctrination"?

Some people argue that "We do not really fear death , what we really fear is dying".I think this is a "half truth".True no one wants a "slow and painful death". However , I think even if we were to be assured that our passing would be "instant and painless" we would still be afraid of death.

As a "practising Catholic" I am "religious" in a manner of speaking, but I think our "belief" in a continued existence after death as well as the uncertainty of "atheists" about non existence after death are both more "psychological" than "logical". Logic points in one direction (death IS non existence) but that logic is hard to accept.

Brian, you express it eloquently. That fear is unlike anything else - the very definition of real and clear and final. Like cc, I put it down to believing there's still something vitally important to do. Or perhaps, more subtly, there's an insistent demand to push at life - OR ELSE! So when the means to push comes to an end, there's nothing to keep 'or else' at bay.

I don't know if others are like me, but in my case that 'or else' was compulsive and pretty terrifying. After decades of enslavement I finally managed to call its bluff. I deliberately ignored the demand to micro-manage my life, resigning myself to failure and damnation. Neither of which seem to have happened, fortunately ;-)

I know that feeling. It started happening to me not so long ago. It struck me all at once one day, the realization of what it would "be" like to cease entirely, when everything that makes up my conscious "world" just stops being abruptly and thoroughky.

That realization comes by now and then, usually when I have time to reflect on myself.

It's not fearsome. It is something different, breathtaking and much more disturbing.

In reaction to some comments yeah : in the end I think sheer horror describes it

It struck me all at once one day, the realization of what it would "be" like to cease entirely, when everything that makes up my conscious "world" just stops being abruptly and thoroughky.

What strikes is the realization that death is not "like" anything because it's the end of everything. You can contemplate your extinction, but your extinction is the end of contemplation.

it is a comfort to read of others similar fear of non existence
I first experienced this as a child and it has haunted me all my life
No one has mentioned it but in the past I allowed my anxiety re non existence to get out of control to the ppoint where ive smashed doors and windows in terror at the tought of being alive and one day not being
I try to cope by asking my wife to cuddle me nowadays but the underlying fear is always near the surface
I avoid things now like lying in a bath as it reminds me of coffins! its as if to live fully you have to accept your finity
I wish someone could say if they've ever lost control like me
I am totally miserable as it preoccupies me daily
Thanks

If you are compassionated (VG)
you can hear your Eternal Soul
above your eyes

At first so tiny but always sweet
You don't need initiations : just compassion c q Love

But to be sure that it is your Soul and then dive in it , ask some help

777

777 or whoever would bother to listen,

I am mostly a compassionate, nice guy (the operative word being "mostly") but I never hear my eternal soul above my eyes even on my most compassionate, loving days, so I guess I need your help. Sometimes I perceive something like an eternal soul within all things. Still, I just can't find the damn thing as any kind of object with shape, dimension, location. So, I am not sure I have one of those or not. There does seem to be an attribute I would ascribe to it that could be called "love" but that word is not quite right. Maybe "bright, unconditional, impersonal positive regard and sustenance" would point in the right direction.

HI Tucson

With compassionate I mean a 100 % meatless life.

Meat activates God's firewall at the Gate , the Door to Heaven the Third Eye Chakra,
it cannot function properly by the uric acid in the blood, coming from fear ( the adrenalin which is not inhibited at the moment of the animal s death - and some eat that )

Symbolic it one of the two seraphim angles closing paradise.
In other words killers can't ascend.

There are other mechanisms but this is a physical one

But any human being 6 month without that acid overflowing
has a better chance to have ALL his chakras in form
( also less illnesses )
You don't need the power of the rssb's 5 words - those words / energies are also for protection amongst much more, much more indeed !!!
The realm in the crooked tunnel can be amazon jungle-hysteric-wild like
The words equal the power of the responsible deity and it cannot even see/observe you
Just listen some minutes at the right side and you will 'hear'
It is/was always present but you weren't interested .

Bernard said : I wish someone could say if they've ever lost control like me

Yes
Some month before I had ever heard about the Real Master,
I( I wrote this already here I think )
I got a little book fro Yogi RamaCharaka :: The Yogi Teachings of Breath

So I did the special exercise of which he said you can do it only 3 times because it's to strong and can awaken Kundalini

What happened then was horrible after 30 times which I did
and I explained that already

Anyway , it made me very convinced of the need of guidance

Hope you don't have that kind of stuff Bernard ? hell was a tea party, compared with that experience in 1964
>3 to You

777

777,

You wrote, "With compassionate I mean a 100% meatless life."

--Well then, I am not compassionate anymore.

However, I was vegetarian for 27 years. No meat, no fish, no birds, no animals of any kind, no eggs either and I was strict about it. I did eat some milk products from time to time. That must have been the problem. In order for the animal to produce milk it must have offspring and the offspring are often killed for meat. You know, for veal, dog food and the like. So, I was responsible indirectly for the deaths of countless animals including all the animals killed by farm machinery, habitat destruction and pesticides so I could eat veg food.

My RS spiritual practice yielded no transformative results after 27 years. I was the same schmuck I was before. At some point you feel like, "Hey, I should be in Mansorovar or some place like that by now floating around on dweeps with hansas. What's up with this path? Maybe it isn't a 'science of the soul' after all." So, I phased out of it.

I know, you are supposed to keep beating your head against the wall and eventually a hole will open up with light streaming in, but I am impatient. I have this one life to live and I didn't want to spend another 27 years beating my head against a wall just on some guru's say so. Especially since I had no way of knowing if he actually knew what he was talking about or if he was a phony or not.

777,
I was very strict veg for 27 years. Meditated the RS way all that time. Nothing changed. I was the same at the end as when I started. Very little light and sound. Certainly none that was transformative, enlightening or helpful in any way. I began to have doubts about this path and drifted away. For me, there was no evidence Charan and Gurinder were who they claimed to be. Life was too short to invest another 27 years in this. For health reasons I began eating meat again and felt better. My blood test parameters improved. A burden was lifted off my back. No longer was I confined by the vows of this path. I was free and just a regular person again...just a slob on the bus, I am fond of saying as these were lyrics in the song "What if God was One of Us?" by Joan Osborne that was popular at that time. This was the most "spiritual" thing that had happened to me in 27 years. That was a long time ago. It really doesn't matter any more. It was just a dream like the one I am in now.

For me, there was no evidence Charan and Gurinder were who they claimed to be


They never claimed

lola,

You're right. I meant to say "who they were supposed to be" but once a comment is up you can't fix it.

Nevertheless, they allow themselves to be presented and revered as "perfect masters", "God in human form" and all that. It is implied that is who they are. Otherwise why would people follow them? Why would people call them "Maharaj" "Babaji" "Master" "Huzur". They sure don't think they are just a couple of slobs on the bus. And Charan and Gurinder go along with it.

Tucson it is time for you to sit again. No matter if you eat meat or dont like Maharajies duet or this or that cause you will never be in the same dogma again..never. You are a great man and honest and it would never do any harm to you if you sit for 20 min without expectations rather oposite it would melt anf bring even more of your prescious heart out..you will shine even more .love

lola,

Thanks. It's about time someone around here recognized that I am a great man. What's the matter with all you people?

Anyway, I will take your suggestion into consideration. I do a type of meditation but it is not simran/bhajan. It is my own thing although I imagine many do something similar. I just sit and sort of "empty out" for a while..10 minutes, 20, 30. Sometimes I do a meditative breathing exercise. My wife calls it snoring.

Tucson
Ithas almost no effect to practise when practicing hate

Also great men are subject to the law of the universes that you get what you want but have to give back what you steal, an apple, a car a wife , a smile, a planet or a life.

This planet is a place where due to cruel evolution , compassion has the greatest chance yo develop in someone

It's the goal , the end of evolution , the start of ascend

Anti compassion by torturing descends
and you know it
Laughing about it gives you 3 seconds of boasting proud sensation
like any kapo knows

This has nothing to do with being initiated or not, it is the minimum of ethics
It's at the root of all wars and sadism

But this sad but instruct if planet represents a trillionth to the power of trillion
of all which exist
Vegas will soon be over

777

-
-


777, so true.

The very smart, intelligent intellectual types can become very superior and egotistical and with the bigger ego comes less compassion and kindness which unfortunately can evolve into coldness and cruelty.

There is definitely a kinder energetic frequency which can be felt when in the company of other vegetarians as compared to being around those who eat animals.

777,

I see you are not convinced that I am a great man. Somehow that does not trouble me. Probably because, being a great man, I have deep humility and magnanimity as well. Not to mention just generally being a really really cool guy.

It is not necessary to hate in order to kill an animal in order to eat it. It is a practical matter for survival. Many of us, especially those with the predominant type O blood type are genetically "hard-wired" to thrive on animal protein. Some of us do not even possess the enzymes necessary to convert plant sourced Omega 3 fatty acids to the bio-available ALA and GLA which the body needs.

Life feeds on life in this world. This is the savage underbelly of the unfathomabaly beautiful surface appearance of our world. A man soon finds out where he is on the food chain and what his body requires in a NATURAL environment when he is placed in that environment with only the most primitive tools such as a sharp stick or sharp obsidian or chert.

Our modern civilization and technological food production/transportation system allows for idealistic diets to be possible. We might keep in mind that there were no tofu trees during the Pleistocene when homo sapiens developed to its full development as a species. No amber waves of grain in those days of the type sung about in "America the Beautiful".

But there were herds of bison, antelope and aurochs aplenty which made our brains grow big and strong, maybe too strong for our own good.

-

OK
You prefer the past

777

-

To discover what sort of creature you are in the natural world it is necessary to leave modern technological civilization and return to your biological roots in primeval conditions. Go into the forest, jungle, desert or savannah with nothing. I would say naked, but a pair of organic, free trade cotton or other natural fiber undershorts may be worn to avoid arrest and frightening children. In lieu of that you may fashion a garment of leaves, animal skins, peeled bark, fiber, etc.

Try to make shelter, find water and make fire. Obtain food from the environment. You may find a variety of tubers, roots, fruit and vegetation to eat, but you may find that is not enough to maintain strength and normal energy levels over the long term as seasons change and availability of vegetation changes. It is at this point where you may find that fat and protein are what your body craves. This is the crucial point... can you continue to survive and thrive on the vegetation you obtain? Or, will you find yourself needing to capture a fish or animal to meet your nutritional needs.

To get some idea of this watch the TV series "Naked and Afraid". Also, there is a new one that has good potential called "Live Free or Die". The old standby was "Survivorman". Or better, see documentary shows about indigenous people living in the wild and what they do to survive. All of them eat some form of wild animal food ranging from fish to monkeys to grubs.

It is perfectly permissible during this trial to continue your meditation practice, prayer or whatever you do to connect to the divine although you may, under such circumstances, discover you are that.

My forefather was a crocodile

But I learned some, don't have to kill & I have different standards than yesterday


777 I must disagree with you. Being vegetarian did not make me a more compassionate human being, although I am still basically vegetarian, proberly just habit..I was arrogant..I thought by not eating meat I was more refined, better than those carnivous..But that did nothing to change my heart I still remaind deceiptful, angry and resentful..The only thing that is softening my heart and making me a better person is....Going to Mass and The Eucarist. Peace to you brother.

Jone;

It is compassion that makes one q vegetarian
maybe pushes someone to sweetness

But I agree with you that the reverse can happen as
was in my case
I stopped , just because it was a requirement for receiving Nam
and later on realized that slowly my heart softened somewhat

btw it is the only vow I find easy

777

PS
I understand your".Going to Mass and The Eucarist. "

That is working on the heart/throat chakras ( Hence all the Jesus with pierced heart statues )

It is the crooked tunnel from the Bardo Thodol
and gives peace too


777 thanks for your understanding, encourageing reply...I will meditate on it..Joan is my patron saint...June is what I am called.

Actually, I'm not scared by the idea of not existing, though I used to be. Instead, now, I'm scared by the idea that there MIGHT be something after death. It's not just that I don't want to be reborn or to go to hell; well, yeah. I also don't want heaven, and I don't want to swim in the eternal oneness of the divine sea of love. ESPECIALLY I don't want to be have these things while other people are excluded from them. All I ask for is oblivion. I just wish I could be SURE of it.

I'm scared by the idea that there MIGHT be something after death.

Yes, a terrifying prospect, my friend, but fear not. By acknowledging the holiness of our master, and by practicing the meditation and prayer techniques he has transmitted to us, you can avoid Hell and go directly to Heaven.

Sign on the dotted line, include your credit card number, and your fear will promptly cease and desist.

x you are so unkind...Unknowing pay no heed, he has not even met any of the gurus, so what does he know...But I.m afraid there is no such thing as oblivion..I also wish there was but my experience has been that life is eternal and I,m beginning to think that death is not the end but the beginning..Explore other channels, maybe even read the book mentioned in the first post you wrote.."The Cloud of Unknowing" It helped me.

Thank you for writing this. I had one of those moments today, and I've just been so overwhelmed by it. None of my friends understand this terrible fear I have about not existing, forever, nothing. not like sleeping. Like nothing. It won't feel like anything because we won't exist to feel anything.

I was so overwhelmed with this feeling today that I started googling it and found this blog. I feel less alone now. Thank you so much for writing this. And all the commenters too, thanks.

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