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May 23, 2010

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SHOCKING !!!

Thanks for putting up this information Brian. Strange, I got a call from my cousin this morning and he was telling me the same... :)

The more I learn about Gurinder, the less I feel I know ! It saddens me to see what RSSB has become. I hope these articles will be the last straw in the hat for some of my relatives who were left undecided after the Religare exposé.

Money from the Ahmedabad land deal is going to go straight into Religare, no doubt about that ! And, how I wish the government comes cracking down on RSSB for the river encroachment issue. Gurinder is very well networked politically, but I hope that the poor farmers get justice this time.

RSSB has come a long way from the days of Seth Shiv Dayal Singh meditating for 17 years in a back room and Jaimal Singh meditating in a cave in the Punjab wastelands with jackals running around, his hair tied to an overhead bar so that he would be awakened when he nodded off and subsisting on stale chipatis.

Did you actually read the article? It says: "The land was earlier
owned by the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB)."
So the construction is being carried out by a different organisation.

Also, does David Lane have any evidence whatsoever that the proceeds from the sale were not directed towards providing further facilities for the Sangat in India? His suggestion of a connection with Religare is at best mischievous, at worst malicious.

Thomas, you say "at best mischievous, at worst malicious"?? you haven't a clue as to what the hell you are talking about. fyi, RS satsangis are deeply involved in Religare.


Thomas, obviously I read the article. I wrote a blog post about it. David's point is that RSSB has become a big business/money organization, engaging in hundred million dollar real estate deals. And also, with Religare, high ranking RSSB officials have created intimate ties between the "spiritual" group and a major corporation.

So RSSB is tied to the real estate deal. And Religare is tied to RSSB. Whether there is a tie between Religare and the deal is another question, but one worth asking.

Same old blah blah blad....

Hello tAo. If you can't respond without being abusive, I'm not going to bother any further.
Good night and good luck!

Thomas, hang around !
Text has no tone so sometimes words may appear harsher than intended... :)

Which brings me to your comment. RSSB sold the land for a huge, huge profit. The money to purchase that land ( many years ago ) came from donations given by the Sangat. The existing facilities for the Sangat are deteriorating. RSSB is doing paltry little for the Sangat in India, what gave you the impression that they're doing anything worthwhile ?

The millions earned from the sale of the Ahmedabad land ( in all likelihood ) will be invested in Religare. Gurinder Singh and his family are now the largest shareholders of the company.

Another possibility is that Religare could be the pit-stop while RSSB looks around for their next big investment, but then someone will still profiteer from the millions. Like, if RSSB decides to buy a ' center ' in San Fran, the RS trust will need a financial services company to broker the deal. That's how Religare's New York office will get business. Wouldn't that be a plausible scenario ?

Gurinder Singh often flies from Amritsar to Delhi in a private jet for a Religare meeting and a Satsang. The charter is billed to RSSB by Religare. http://www.religarevoyages.com

Okay, who do you think should be billed, RSSB or Religare ? Tough one to call ! But, that is exactly what happens when spirituality gets mixed up with business.

Even if this sounds mischievous or malicious, its probably closer to the truth than the belief that RSSB is a spiritual mission. Of course, that is my opinion.

Thomas, I second Tara's hope: hang around. I apologize for not catching, and deleting, the personal insult directed at you in a comment. I've taken care of that now.

THe Internet often isn't a friendly place for thin-skinned people. However, since you spoke freely and strongly in your own comment, I'm hoping that you'll understand how others feel equally passionately about their own views.

Sometimes language goes over the top on blogs (and elsewhere). That's better than not conversing at all. With risk comes reward. So hopefully you'll keep risking a sharing of your views.

Same old blah blah pointing to same old lack of truth and integrity.Whats missing is a good old sex scandal.Us Yanks love those

I have been reading these comments about how this is "Shocking" without anone even asking Gurinder or RSSB what the facts are. Don't you think it would be a good idea to let RSSB explain there intentions and actions before making judgement? If someone really wants clear answers rather than reading the worst into RSSB then they should at least get all the facts before pronouncing judgement.

why should we go ask the leader and his cult, when the pertinent facts and the finacial info are already publicly available and known?

and what on earth makes you think that this feudalistic cult guru is going to actually answer any hard questions from his critics? you can't really be that naive now are you?

i think you are just another sucker for the myth that RS is 'fair and balanced'. dream on.

Howard -

On another thread, Robert has quoted Narinder Johal from the RS newsletter :
" It is a safe assumption to make that if the teachers way of life and particularly how he supports himself is at variance with the teachings, there is clearly a need to exercise great caution... "

They're saying it themselves ! That is proof that the way Gurinder supports himself is at variance with the teachings - QED


why should we go ask the leader and his cult, when the pertinent facts and the finacial info are already publicly available and known?

TAO, HAVE YOU READ OVER THE FINANCIAL RECORDS PUBLISEHD BY GOVERNMENT AUDITORS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO READ THEM? IN OTHER WORDS, DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? OR WOULD YOU AS USUAL PREFER VENTING YOUR SPLEEN WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT INVESTIGATING THE FACTS? IF I EVER MET A BITTER EX-ER IT IS YOU. YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DEEPLY IN LOVE WITH THE MASTER AT ONE TIME, DON'T FEEL ALONE, IT HAPPENED TO MANY OF US.

and what on earth makes you think that this feudalistic cult guru is going to actually answer any hard questions from his critics? you can't really be that naive now are you?

IN FACT THERE ARE PUBLICLY AVAILABLE AUDITS THAT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, ARE NOT DECEPTIVE. HOW MISTRUSTING OF EVERYONE ARE YOU? MAYBE YOU HAVE READ YOUR OWN MOTIVES INTO WHAT OTHERS DO. TAO, HOW HONEST ARE YOU WHEN YOU PAY YOUR TAXES?

i think you are just another sucker for the myth that RS is 'fair and balanced'. dream on.

YOUR LEVEL OF DISCOURSE BELONGS IN THE GUTTER. IT IS AN OLD STRATEGY IN DEBATE TO ATTACK THE PERSON WHEN YOU CAN'T ATTACK THE TRUTH. HELL, YOU ATTACK THE PERSON JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK OUR EARS ARE GARGAGE CANS. DID YOUR MOTHER EVER TEACH YOU HOW TO TALK TO THE OTHER BOYS AND GIRLS?

I DON'T KNOW WHY I EVEN RESPONDED TO YOU EXCEPT I AM TERRIBLY BORED. I KNOW THIS WILL PISS YOU OFF AND YOU WILL THROW UP ALL OVER YOURSELF AND THE REST OF US ONE MORE TIME; YOU HAVE DONE IT SO OFTEN WE HAVE LEARNED TO IGNORE YOU AS WE WOULD A RANTING CHILD WHO HAS JUST LEARNED THE F WORD. MAYBE YOU COULD TRY A LITTLE MORE CIVILITY AND THEN WE MIGHT TAKE YOU A BIT MORE SERIOUSLY.

TARA, I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT NEEDING GREAT CAUTION, BUT A NEWSLETTER IS HARDLY PROOF THAT GURINDER IS AT VARIANCE WITH HIS TEACHINGS. THE TEACHINGS SIMPLY SAY A MASTER SHOULD SUPPORT HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN EARNINGS. IS INSIDER TRADING EARNINGS? THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION, BUT WE STILL NEED THE FACTS AND THE MAIN WITNESS HAS YET TO TAKE THE STAND. HOW ABOUT YOU WRITE HIM AND ASK HOW HE MAKES A LIVING AND HOW HE RECONCILES THE ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY HE AND HIS CHILDREN HAVE MADE OF LATE WITH THE FACT CHARAN SINGH USED TO SAY IF YOU WANTED TO RUIN A MAN GIVE HIM LOTS OF MONEY. IS HE TRYING TO RUIN HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY? IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.

Howard says:

"TAO, [...] IF I EVER MET A BITTER EX-ER IT IS YOU. YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DEEPLY IN LOVE WITH THE MASTER AT ONE TIME""

-- i don't usually respond to people who use all caps. people like you who use all caps do so because a) you are weak and insecure; and b) you think that using all caps (shouting) somehow gives more strength, more power, and more credibility to the weak nonsense that you write. but i got news for you, it does the opposite.

anyway, fyi, i never had any kind of "love" for "the master". why would i love some guy that i did not know personally, and that i had almost zero contact with? its rather absurd actually. i have said this many times before: i was only interested in the meditation, and never the guru. i had no love or devotion to the guru. why should i? charan singh was nobody special to me. he was nothing more than the leader of a religious organization. so howard, go find someone else to dump your lame rubbish on. and btw, i am not "bitter" about RS at all. not even in the slightest. why would i be? why should i be? i have nothing to be "bitter" about. RS hasn't done anything bad to me personally. i actually don't even care about RS at all. my criticism of RS is entirely intellectual, not emotional. so you obviously don't know what YOU are talking about howard. your are just another immature believer who can't stand the fact that other people don't believe as you do.

"TAO, HOW HONEST ARE YOU WHEN YOU PAY YOUR TAXES?"

-- i don't need to pay taxes. the government does it for me. and its most always those like you who try to cast doubt upon the honesty of other, who are the real dishonest ones.

"YOUR LEVEL OF DISCOURSE BELONGS IN THE GUTTER. IT IS AN OLD STRATEGY IN DEBATE TO ATTACK THE PERSON WHEN YOU CAN'T ATTACK THE TRUTH."

-- is that why you HAVE attacked me personally, and why you HAVE NOT been able to dispute my truth or my facts? so you are only talking about yourself here.

"DID YOUR MOTHER EVER TEACH YOU HOW TO TALK TO THE OTHER BOYS AND GIRLS?"

-- didn't your mother ever teach you to be fair and honest, and not misportray and misrepresent other people that have different opinions from yours?? well sadly, i guess not.

"I KNOW THIS WILL PISS YOU OFF AND YOU WILL THROW UP ALL OVER YOURSELF AND THE REST OF US ONE MORE TIME"

-- well, it sure looks like you are the one who is desperately "throwing up all over". because nothing you have said so far holds any real substance. its really just a bunch of sour grapes and rubbish because you don't like that other people are skeptical of, and criticise RS and its guru's actions. your are just a loud and unhappy little guy who doesn't like his sacred holy cow laughed at. tough darts.

"WE HAVE LEARNED TO IGNORE YOU AS WE WOULD A RANTING CHILD"

-- who is "WE"?? i've got news for you, you are pretty much alone here. you might have ONE other person, like Ashy, on your side. but he rants even more than you do. so you are just a hypocrite and joke dude. and your shouting by using all caps, is clearly "ranting". you are the one who is "ranting", not i. you have basically made a fool of yourself here.

"MAYBE YOU COULD TRY A LITTLE MORE CIVILITY AND THEN WE MIGHT TAKE YOU A BIT MORE SERIOUSLY."

-- well what exactly was not "civil" in or about my previous comment? if you can't be specific, and show evidence, then no one will take YOU seriously. and thats something you seem to have missed. so like i said, imo, your over-all comment is a joke... and so the joke is really on you.

"A MASTER SHOULD SUPPORT HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN EARNINGS. [...] WE STILL NEED THE FACTS [...] HOW ABOUT YOU WRITE HIM AND ASK HOW HE MAKES A LIVING AND HOW HE RECONCILES THE ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY [...] IS HE TRYING TO RUIN HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY? IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY."

-- you really are incredibly naive aren't you? its quite amazing how much in denial people like you tend to be. not to mention how you like misrepresent other people (like me) who are not foolish believers like you are.


Howard, considering the position Gurinder holds - GIHF to his millions of followers, I think he should be responsible enough to clarify matters that have the possibility of being misjudged, if he is squeaky clean that is ! Why does the Religare shareholding pattern come as a surprise to all ? If you are a RS believer, there may be several ways to rationalize this, but there are unanswered questions and doubts in everyone's minds.

I do not need to write to him, I know what's going on and I've been rather fortunate to have seen things for myself.

tAo is the guy who will call a spade a spade and he does not mince his words.

Howard, what would you make of this, it happened a few months ago...

Cuckoo ( Charan Singh's son ) was appointed as the head of construction & development at the Dera by Gurinder about a year ago, as the Guru felt that he needed reliable people to oversee the ( many ) projects that are a part of the expansion plan of Dera. A while later, there were discrepancies in the accounts when presented to the Guru. Apparently, Gurinder was red-faced about this and ordered Cuckoo to leave the Dera. Charan's wife, who lives in the adjacent kothi ( house ) to the Guru was livid at the prospect of her son being sent-off and this issue caused quite a rift between the families. Then Gurinder placed Cuckoo within Fortis in a plump position. It may be their family matter, but then again, it is a good example of Gurinder being on an ' growth and expansion ' trip on all levels - at RSSB and at Religare. I don't know of any CEO who can manage two organizations ! I sometimes wonder, why did the Guru decide to expand RSSB in the first place ? Also, couldn't the ' Godly ' prowess of the Guru know that someone would be corrupt before appointing them ?

Taras qoute...

Also, couldn't the ' Godly ' prowess of the Guru know that someone would be corrupt before appointing them ?

The answer to your question lies with the seeming claim that Faqir Chand made that he was not omnipresent...even though his disciples experienced inner, and outer "miracles" "from him" ...

( Picking up from Robert's quote above... )
... which is at contradiction with the RS teachings !

Robert, if you think that Faqir Chand and Gurinder are saying the same thing, I'd say I strongly disagree ! The RS teachings clearly state the Guru's ' omnipresence ' in implying that not a leaf on this planet could sway without his ' grace ' or ' will ' and stuff like that. Anyone who is familiar with the RS doctrine knows how much stress is laid on the GIHF aspect.

And, if Gurinder claims that he is not omnipresent - it would shake up the foundation of the RS faith. The reason the devotees queue up for hours to get a glimpse of him or pine for his ' darshan ' is cause they believe that his gaze has the power to make a molehill out of a mountain of karmas, which again is based on the belief that the Guru knows the past, present and future.

I think you're rather confused and are developing your own version or interpretation of the Radha Soami faith. That probably works for you, but is quite off the mark from the fundamentals of RS - Sant Mat.

Know more about Radha Soami Ji here http://www.radhasoamiji.org/


Yes, my interpretation is from one perspective at odds with RSSB but is largely in agreement with Faqir Chand!

Why the fixation with Faqir Chand? True, I'm developing a fixation with the enlightenment of my neighbor's dog. However, I have my reasons.

Just sharing my thougths...first time on the blog.
My father is a third generation initiate, after my great grandmother and grandmother. I am not involved in RSSB or attend their satsangs etc, though I've read their books (including ones authored by Brian),and have observed my own family as an 'outsider' for a long time now.
I feel the 'awareness' of the activities of RSSB is much higher on the outside, in places like this blog itself. On the inside, most of the initiates actually follow RSSB as a religion, with its own rituals: going to local satsangs, going to Guru's satsangs, and going to dera occasionally as a 'pilgrimage' of sorts.
I feel most people don't really understand what they should take away from all these activities. They are told that they should 'believe' in the living embodiment of God that will 'eventually' 'save' them.
In my opinion,this is not very different from objectifying God, which can be worshiped in a physical form, much like the statue in a temple. This is usually the behavior I've witnessed in most satsangs by the Guru.
(I'm not saying the RSSB promotes Guru worship.Even the satsangs also preach not to do so)
'Why do you have to pay that weekly visit to the satsang?' I asked my father. His reply: 'It reminds him of his duties as an initiate.' Well, good enough. 'Do you actually practice what is taught in the RSSB philosophy?' Reply: Just a smile.
Too tough a question, I thought.
Now I don't see how this weekly visit has changed his life in any form, or others in contact with him. He has the same strifes and shortcomings as a person as would anyone else.
If this is the 'usual' and 'common' RSSB initiate, I can understand why the awareness of RSSB's activities (like the ones above) are so low in India. People have fallen in the cycle of performing their weekly chores (and are satisfied at that, not realizing the entire concept is in nature, more intellectual and mental than a mere visit to the satsang every week)
I feel this hoard behavior actually keeps people away from understanding the entire concept of honesty and simplicity and realizing what the RSSB has been upto in recent times. I just hope that they 'think', and respond in some manner.
And thanks Brian, for providing a platform for these discussions. This is what the RSSB should have done long time back.

dman,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

You said,

"I feel most people don't really understand what they should take away from all these activities. They are told that they should 'believe' in the living embodiment of God that will 'eventually' 'save' them."

---Is this "living embodiment of God" training still occuring in 2010? Is the GIHF still alive and well with RSSB?

and

"People have fallen in the cycle of performing their weekly chores (and are satisfied at that, not realizing the entire concept is in nature, more intellectual and mental than a mere visit to the satsang every week)"

---Are you saying that RSSB would be improved and made good by realizing the entire concept is in nature, and made more intellectual and mental? That is, RSSB can be improved and made whole?

I'm not finding fault with your statements. Thanks for a reply. Roger

man, your comment was interesting. I think you've hit on some right-on points about RSSB initiates, which certainly applies to most of the people who belong to other religions and spiritual groups.

Namely, their primary focus isn't theological dogma, but personal relationships and needs. People go to church largely because they enjoy the social contacts, support, conversations, and such. The same is true of satsangis (members of the RSSB organization).

For most of the 35 years I was an active part of RSSB, I dutifully meditated several hours a day, or at least an hour. Yet when I'd go to gatherings, I learned that lots of satsangis didn't meditate at all. Or they'd consider that doing volunteer work ("seva") was more important than meditating, even though the teachings said exactly the opposite.

So you've communicated some important truths in your comment. Thanks for sharing them.

Roger, and Brian, thanks for your reply.
I think I can explain further.
"---Is this "living embodiment of God" training still occuring in 2010? Is the GIHF still alive and well with RSSB?"
Well, I don't know about the satsangs. But their books, most of them, use verses from Guru Granth Sahib, and contain plenty of references to the Guru being GHIF.
Secondly, I feel that even though not preached, this concept takes form from the ideas of love/devotion/respect etc. that are blown out of proportion (by followers?). I'll give you an example. My last trip (with my parents of course) to the Dera was about 5 years ago. There were two Satsangs, one in Hindi/Punjabi, and another one in English. In the English satsang, I could find a lot of non-English speaking people, even though they were clearly not understanding a word of what was being said. After about half an hour, some of them dozed off.
The reason why they attended that session was because there was a smaller crowd so they could sit closer to the stage, and see the Guru up close. My point is, does the value of the Satsang lie in just looking at the Guru sitting on the stage OR the stuff he's talking about? Given that these people are there because of their 'love and devotion' for the Guru, no one stops them from attending the satsang. But I feel that 'respect' in all kinds of social/spiritual settings is the respect for someone's ideas and values, not for their bodily presence.(The 'values' part has gone bad with RSSB, it seems).

Which brings me to your second comment.
"---Are you saying that RSSB would be improved and made good by realizing the entire concept is in nature, and made more intellectual and mental?"
I feel it would definitely help. Why is it that a visit to the satsang can now be equated to a visit to a temple/church etc? I think it has got to do something with the way RSSB has been functioning, and how its followers percieve and apply the entire concept.
Consider this. To prove a philosophy/hypothesis, you can conduct an experiment. Mostly, experiments are conducted in a lab because it provides 'controlled conditions'.
The core process of the RSSB 'experiment' here is the meditation, purely mental/intellectual work, and for best results, it should be done in a 'controlled environment'. Maybe RSSB wants to make it more appealing for people by involving the social elements (I'm not sure on that), but its definitely diluting and contaminating the entire 'experimental setup/process'. Such an experiment will obviously give bogus results, which can be explained in the form of satisfaction from chores/rituals and social contacts, support and conversations that Brian mentioned in his comment.
These are just my thoughts on what I think can be done, the 'how' part is another matter.

Hi dman,

What would be the 'experimental setup/process' that could make RSSB improved and undiluted? I'm guessing, this process is the meditation and any open discussions of meditation experiences. Thanks for a reply, Roger

Hi Roger,
Yes, it is the meditation ("The core process of the RSSB 'experiment' here is the meditation"). And yes, I think it should be open to discussion, both within the initiates, and the Guru/preachers etc, so that results can be compared, and the 'process' improved if possible.
I'm not an initiate myself. Actually I'm still undecided...

dman, Roger... I was often corrected by RSSB representatives for questioning fellow and older initiates about their spiritual progress. The reason I began to doubt the whole system stemmed from my opinion that RS-mantra meditation was unproductive for almost everyone practicing it. There was neither any 'spiritual' progress for them, nor were they outwardly relaxed and at peace with the world around them. Satsangis usually attribute the smallest of their problems to the 'karma' rhetoric and have an overbearing sense of dependence on the guru. To add to that, many appear depressed, dejected or frustrated because at some level they feel that their efforts are futile.

A few weeks ago, I bumped into a young ( Indian ) satsangi couple at a bar. They hung around till 2am sipping diet-coke and enviously gazing at groups of people around who were dancing and enjoying themselves. On their way out they said a cold 'hello' to my friends, then looked at our table and gave me a horrid 'you're-going-straight-to-hell' kinda look... :)

dman, you're undecided ?
I hope you don't buy into that euphoria at Satsang.
Its just like being in South Africa at the moment.

Tara,
I'm not concerned with any spiritual aspect of it, but I think on a therapeutic and scientific basis, just for relaxation and reducing stress, it can be given a try. Or any other meditation technique for that matter.
As for Satsangis in general, as discussed in the comments above, being vegetarian and teetotaler are common, many non Satsangis also do that. (I think most Satsangis don't even meditate, as Brian said in his comment. They feel that just the label of being a Satsangi makes them a better person. I feel this elitist assumption is total b.s.)

Tara,

You stated,

"... I was often corrected by RSSB representatives for questioning fellow and older initiates about their spiritual progress."

--Yes, I would agree that this issue is the problem. That said, if any open discussions were allowed, would anything really change in a supposed 'spiritual' process? Meditation experiences are simply one category of various types of experiences. If I tell you that during a meditation experience, I experienced an intense light. What would be the difference in you telling me that you had a more wonderous experience in turning on a 300 watt light bulb in a dark 10' x 10' room? Probably not much, maybe or maybe not.

Roger,
I agree with your point. Do you feel it would help if the issue was open to discussion with the 'preachers'? They are supposedly experienced in this, right? I mean, one's experiences are one's own, but maybe there are aspects of the technique that can be improved by taking advice??

Roger, yes, nothing significant would change even if open discussions were permitted. However, if a group of people would collectively admit that they're not seeing the RF - it could lead to several unanswered questions, and possibly, some blinders could retract.

dman, I don't think there is anything scientific about RS meditation. Of course, the RS literature is full of scientific inferences, but there is no evidence to back it up. I find a ' target-free ' type of meditation more relaxing. The simple ' Om Tat Sat ' mantra can be therapeutic.

dman, are you aware of who the ' new ' preachers are ?
The latest Satsang Roster ( that a friend of mine forwarded me ) had the following names :

1. Shivinder Singh
2. Malvinder Singh
3. Sunil Godhwani

Roger and Tara,
You seem to be well in touch with the activities of RSSB. May I ask what do you feel about the present situation at RSSB, in relation to their functioning and theology? The feedback I get from my family is obviously not objective, so it would be good to know what's other's stand on this. My comments are directed towards what I think can be improved...or else the situation is already beyond repair...

dman and Tara,

No, I am not an expert on RSSB, and not an initiate or member. My understandings come from reading information off the Internet only. Improvement of RSSB would be like improving any other standard religion. Improvement or reformation is simply what it is. Reading and studying supposed spiritual issues is a hobby for me. Nothing more. The 'preachers' title for RSSB sounds like the standard 'dogma' barkers, one can find in any religion.
As far a relaxing meditation, I have found mowing my front lawn to be very relaxing.
This relaxation activity envolves purchasing a lawn mower. Home Depot have various models to choose from.

dman,
I don't know if you've gone through the RSSB archives on this blog, there have been many discussions on many aspects...

I come from a RS family too, got initiated but de-converted a few months ago. IMO, a lot has changed. Just to give you a small example, some Shabads have been put in the ' not to be used ' category. The eye-camps for the poor have been discontinued. There were many things that put me off and that eventually led to me becoming disillusioned, which of course was good for me !

Since I have many family members and friends who are RS's, I do get to hear about what's going on with and within RSSB. Other than that, I sometimes give my viewpoint to people who ask for it.

Tara
Your post upsets me a lot...........don’t mind I don’t want to give any personel comments but i think so that there is some lack of thrust thats why you de-converted...............


You are talking about the poor farmers have you ever met them? have you have any conversation with them.......i think no...........
so without knowing anything how can you comment on that topic.... I am living in India.....So I know about that…….there is no such issue............


You are talking about earnings and money of Guru ji .....but you didn't know about his charity.......b'coz he didn't want any show off and I am not goonna tell you about that charity because those are secret and meant to remain secret......So never comment on any thing which you don't know.......and you want evidence .....there are many things which rely on thrust If you start trusting may be you start getting the evidence...........First give the the evidence of God,…..do you have….no…..but still we people believe in them……… or who make this universe? how these mountain ,rivers origins……..from where oxygen originated …may be you have evidence of some of the things b'coz you truely starts thrusting on it..i.e. on the scientist who told us about them ………..


I only want to say that if you don't have any thrust on them so there is no use of any discussion on them.....so leave this discussion……and do what ever you like…..and stop hurting others by your word and belives which comes from rumors which doesn’t have any existence in real


".....some Shabads have been put in the ' not to be used ' category. The eye-camps for the poor have been discontinued........."
Shabad are restricted b'coz people start misusing them i.e make there own shabad and start selling them by using the name of RSSB outside the dera premises ………and you don't know some of them are really bad which misleads the wrong messages....they make shabad like a movie songs.......due to which people are starts making of fun of RSSB ……just for earning money many people(non-satsangis) starts doing so...... So to avoid such a situation they restrict them so that people will not buy those wrong things and didn’t waste there money…………
and about the eye-camp I don't know much about that but I know there was some genuine reason for that.......so I never try to know about that……………..


So don't go on anyone talks or rumors ……..he is the person who help us …..teaches us...that how we meet the God(the Creator) and for this he didn’t want even a single peny for this………and He didn’t want any fees for it……… If you go to college the University or college ask for fees before admission…….after getting fees then they will teach you ………..or any other course everyone ask for fees for teaching anything……………….but he didn’t do so…………He always say “just do meditation I only want this thing from you nothing else……….”…….and meditation gives benefit to us not to him but he still always say to do so…………..

I hope you understand……..bye this is my first and last post…….all the best

satsangi,
i'm only too glad you are not going to post here any more. because your one (and supposedly only) comment was about as dumb as it could be, imo. and, you clearly don't know anything about Tara, or about the actual facts... or about anything else for that matter. you are yet another example of how uninformed some satsangis are.


satsangi,
I'm sorry to learn that my comments have upset you, my apologies.
However, maybe there are some opinions that you identify with and maybe they are in conflict with your belief system.

FYI dude, I live in India too. ( My family members have been RS's through generations, though we are Sikhs by descent. ) The farmland and diversion of the river-bank issue has been going on for over a decade, which I closely followed even before I was initiated. So, its not like I'm making assumptions.

Don't talk about Gurinder not wanting to show-off or being secretive about his charity. RSSB has listed every small thing that they have done in the past ( there are about six or seven mid-size projects that you can read about on their website ) and sadly there is not much more that they have done for humanity or the poorer amongst their Sangat. I do not see how million-dollar investments in properties abroad will help the Sangat, when those funds can be used for basic healthcare and education for the rural Sangat's families and children.
What do you think ?

And, what's the obsession with fancy cars ?
I thought that a ' Perfect Master ' would be above the material world.

About the Shabads... I am referring to the Shabads that have been banned from internal usage within the RSSB Satsangs, so thanks for educating me about their external misuse ! ( I had a good laugh at you naivety... ) Here is the list, please note that some of them were Charan's favorites -

Aad Niranjan Prabh Nirankara - Guru Arjun Dev Ji
Namey He Tey Sabhu Kichhu Hoa - Guru Amar Das Ji
Dil Ka Hujra Saaf Kar- Tulsi Sahib
Har Ki Pooja Dulambh Hai Santo - Guru Amar Das Ji
Jag Main Ghor Andhera Bhari - Soami Ji
Dhun Sun Kar Man Samjhayee - Soami Ji

Do go and check with RS representatives in Mumbai and Delhi to confirm the same. Of course you'll find a way to rationalize and justify this, but I still suggest you to go ahead and find out things for yourself.

I do not subscribe to rumors, everything that I have written on this blog is either my own experience and opinion, or has come from a dependable source - like people who are high rankers in the RS community.

Finally, like tAo said, you don't know anything about me, so I don't think you're in a position to judge. And, I don't think my de-conversion was about a lack of thrust, it was more about realizing that the current Guru is totally out of line with what Beas once stood for.

Tara,

If someone 'knows' you, they are still not in a position to judge you. roger

oh ! you're right Roger... :)

Tara, if you would kindly email me, i would appreciate it. i have a friend, whose home is in northern India, that i would like to put you into contact with. he may be about your age. he is not a satsangi, but his mother is. his mother and father currently live in silcon valley (near san francisco). i will tell you the rest via email. if you send your email to Brian, i am sure he would not mind forwarding that on to me. please include your return email address in the body of your message just to make sure. i will then reply to you directly. tnx

Sure tAo, Brian has my email-id.
I look forward to hearing from you.
:)
tara.

Tara,

Brian may have your email address, but i do not. and i doubt that he would give out your address without specific permission.

so as i said, the easiest thing is for you to simply send an email message to me, via Brian's address, and he can then forward your email on to me.

then i will be able to email back to you directly. comprende?


tAo, I've sent the email via Brian... :)

Why don't anybody of you go and ask these things Baba himself?

Tara:

the eye camps --

heard that people needing that surgery now go to the Beas hospital instead --- safer. (?) Do not have any way to verify this though. Also the wonderful principal eye surgeon (Dr. Pawa - spelling?)passed away a few years ago as well.

still: Why don't anybody of you go and ask these things Baba himself?

Mungos,

Maybe you can get Baba to speak with us here on this blog so we can ask him questions? Thanks. That would be a great help as it would save all of us airfare to India, waiting in line, sucking up to high ranking sevadars, etc.

He he ,i am really not capable of doing that. But still i really wonder why these things are not discussed with Baba.I never was in India so only what i have is meditation and my own understanding.

Devotees do not challenge the master, and for those who would or do challenge the master access to him is made very difficult.

Hi Jon...
Gurinder discontinued the eye-camps citing " managerial " problems. I'm not sure whether most people needing surgery ( now ) go to the Beas hospital as it does not have one tenth the infrastructure if compared to the annual eye camp. I cannot comment on the " safer " aspect though, from what I noticed, the Beas hospital is in need of a major refurbishment. The eye camp was discontinued over five years ago, much to the surprise of volunteering doctors, post-operative caretakers and other Seva doers. I'm myself not sure about the chief surgeons name, will check with my father and get back to you.

Hi Mungos...
I've personally heard Gurinder say -
" We must not confuse spirituality with charity. "
< Bollocks ! >

I wonder sometimes i would go and ask and i am not afraid of Baba but other people would probably beat the hell out of me.

Mungos,

I would ask him anyway. This is your life. You must be satisfied the guru is worthy of your devotion, not if you are worthy of his grace.

I myself am convinced so i do not need asking anybody i just enjoy my freedom having conversation with anybody i want by that i mean i don't mind what people think of me whether here or in sangat.

@Tara i agree babaji may have said that we shouldnt confuse spirituality with charity even though i havent heard him saying this..but even if he has said it i think its abolutely true..Nanak Sahib and Kabir Sahib have also said it.I would like to share with you a paragraph from Guru Granth Sahib in which Guru Nanak clearly says that there is a huge difference between spirituality and charity!!


the practice of Yoga and righteous conduct;
sagal ti-aag ban maDhay firi-aa.
the renunciation of everything and wandering around in the wilderness;
anik parkaar kee-ay baho jatnaa.
the performance of all sorts of works;
punn daan homay baho ratnaa.
donations to charities and offerings of jewels to fire;
sareer kataa-ay homai kar raatee.
cutting the body apart and making the pieces into ceremonial fire offerings;
varat naym karai baho bhaatee.
keeping fasts and making vows of all sorts
nahee tul raam naam beechaar.
- none of these are equal to the contemplation of the Name of the Lord,
naanak gurmukh naam japee-ai ik baar. ||1||
O Nanak, if, as Gurmukh, one chants the Naam, even once. ||1||
na-o khand parithmee firai chir jeevai.
You may roam over the nine continents of the world and live a very long life;
mahaa udaas tapeesar theevai.
you may become a great ascetic and a master of disciplined meditation
agan maahi homat paraan.
and burn yourself in fire;
kanik asav haivar bhoom daan.
you may give away gold, horses, elephants and land;
ni-ulee karam karai baho aasan.
you may practice techniques of inner cleansing and all sorts of Yogic postures;
jain maarag sanjam at saaDhan.
you may adopt the self-mortifying ways of the Jains and great spiritual disciplines;
nimakh nimakh kar sareer kataavai.
piece by piece, you may cut your body apart;
ta-o bhee ha-umai mail na jaavai.
but even so, the filth of your ego shall not depart.
har kay naam samsar kachh naahi.
There is nothing equal to the Name of the Lord.
naanak gurmukh naam japat gat paahi. ||2||
O Nanak, as Gurmukh, chant the Naam, and obtain salvation. ||2||
man kaamnaa tirath dayh chhutai.
With your mind filled with desire, you may give up your body at a sacred shrine of pilgrimage;
garab gumaan na man tay hutai.
but even so, egotistical pride shall not be removed from your mind.
soch karai dinas ar raat.
You may practice cleansing day and night,
man kee mail na tan tay jaat.
but the filth of your mind shall not leave your body.
is dayhee ka-o baho saaDhnaa karai.
You may subject your body to all sorts of disciplines,
man tay kabhoo na bikhi-aa tarai.
but your mind will never be rid of its corruption.
jal Dhovai baho dayh aneet.
You may wash this transitory body with loads of water,
suDh kahaa ho-ay kaachee bheet.
but how can a wall of mud be washed clean?
man har kay naam kee mahimaa ooch.
O my mind, the Glorious Praise of the Name of the Lord is the highest;
naanak naam uDhray patit baho mooch. ||3||
O Nanak, the Naam has saved so many of the worst sinners. |

@Tara i agree babaji may have said that we shouldnt confuse spirituality with charity even though i havent heard him saying this..but even if he has said it i think its abolutely true..Nanak Sahib and Kabir Sahib have also said it.I would like to share with you a paragraph from Guru Granth Sahib in which Guru Nanak clearly says that there is a huge difference between spirituality and charity!!


the practice of Yoga and righteous conduct;
sagal ti-aag ban maDhay firi-aa.
the renunciation of everything and wandering around in the wilderness;
anik parkaar kee-ay baho jatnaa.
the performance of all sorts of works;
punn daan homay baho ratnaa.
donations to charities and offerings of jewels to fire;
sareer kataa-ay homai kar raatee.
cutting the body apart and making the pieces into ceremonial fire offerings;
varat naym karai baho bhaatee.
keeping fasts and making vows of all sorts
nahee tul raam naam beechaar.
- none of these are equal to the contemplation of the Name of the Lord,
naanak gurmukh naam japee-ai ik baar. ||1||
O Nanak, if, as Gurmukh, one chants the Naam, even once. ||1||
na-o khand parithmee firai chir jeevai.
You may roam over the nine continents of the world and live a very long life;
mahaa udaas tapeesar theevai.
you may become a great ascetic and a master of disciplined meditation
agan maahi homat paraan.
and burn yourself in fire;
kanik asav haivar bhoom daan.
you may give away gold, horses, elephants and land;
ni-ulee karam karai baho aasan.
you may practice techniques of inner cleansing and all sorts of Yogic postures;
jain maarag sanjam at saaDhan.
you may adopt the self-mortifying ways of the Jains and great spiritual disciplines;
nimakh nimakh kar sareer kataavai.
piece by piece, you may cut your body apart;
ta-o bhee ha-umai mail na jaavai.
but even so, the filth of your ego shall not depart.
har kay naam samsar kachh naahi.
There is nothing equal to the Name of the Lord.
naanak gurmukh naam japat gat paahi. ||2||
O Nanak, as Gurmukh, chant the Naam, and obtain salvation. ||2||
man kaamnaa tirath dayh chhutai.
With your mind filled with desire, you may give up your body at a sacred shrine of pilgrimage;
garab gumaan na man tay hutai.
but even so, egotistical pride shall not be removed from your mind.
soch karai dinas ar raat.
You may practice cleansing day and night,
man kee mail na tan tay jaat.
but the filth of your mind shall not leave your body.
is dayhee ka-o baho saaDhnaa karai.
You may subject your body to all sorts of disciplines,
man tay kabhoo na bikhi-aa tarai.
but your mind will never be rid of its corruption.
jal Dhovai baho dayh aneet.
You may wash this transitory body with loads of water,
suDh kahaa ho-ay kaachee bheet.
but how can a wall of mud be washed clean?
man har kay naam kee mahimaa ooch.
O my mind, the Glorious Praise of the Name of the Lord is the highest;
naanak naam uDhray patit baho mooch. ||3||
O Nanak, the Naam has saved so many of the worst sinners. |

Kabir,
You've posted the above message twice and I'm having trouble reading it once !

Which is better - ( ?? )
A. The purchase of an expensive piece of real-estate ( by RSSB ).
B. An eye-camp for the poor who cannot afford healthcare ( by RSSB ).

Where there is no love and compassion, there can be no spirituality.

Quoting a commenter from another blog -

" Was driving back from Mussoorie ( hill station ahead of Dehra Dun, India ) and in every town I noticed Radha Soami properties. In one town they had two huge properties. I noticed most of their properties hardly had any activity. Do they need so many properties or are these just NPA's or Non Performing Assets ? "

If guru Nanak thought it was better to chant the name of the lord in stead of helping his disciples you would not have a name to chant at all :)

Still wondering where all this money comes from. I don't hear people donating so much more nowadays. Also can't believe that increased efficiency pays out so much. So where does the money to buy all these assets come from? Or am I missing something?

@Nietzsche-seems like you havent read the paragraph properly:)a guru is not here to help his disciples in a financial way or to solve his worldly problems but to attach his disciple to the name of lord..

@Tara-The eye camps have been discontinued but the people who need a surgery are sent to the dera hospital and the surgery is done FREE OF COST as it is safer and better as compared to eye camps...Please make your facts clear before arriving to conclusions..you can confirm with the Dera hospital about it if u wish to..

@Kabir Okay the guru should help spiritual and not by giving food and the like. But I also read somewhere that the guru should not accept any donations from the disciples. And if he does (which meens that the disciple is helping the guru financial) he should at least find ways to give it to the people that need it most. Seems even like common sense to me regardless if guru Nanak said it or not. And if RSSB gets this money through donations it seems not right to me that they just pile it up like Dagobert Duck in the famous strip stories. Seems like Gurinder is reading Dagobert more than he reads Nanak :)

Nietzsche, good point ! ( I have left a reply to your question in the post titled : Religare's connections with the Radha Soami Guru... )

Kabir Advani -
People who are brainwashed by cult practices almost always find a way to rationalize and justify the obvious fallacies and malpractices within the cult.
It is a part of expressing what you will call " unshakeable faith " in the the cult.
In your case - RSSB.

I know my facts well, you're simply dismissing them as " conclusions " because you are auto-conditioned not to question. The " fact " remains that Gurinder has said himself " We are a spiritual mission, not a charitable one... "

And, just FYI, the Dera Hospital caters to a fraction of the people who need eye-surgery and I'm more than aware that it is free of cost ! How do you know that things are " safer and better " at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ? Do you know someone who has had one surgery at the eye-camp and then another at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ? The eye-camps were as safe or as unsafe as the procedures being performed at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital. So, when RSSB cuts off a large scale charitable activity, cult members like you begin to think that it was unsafe ? Aa ha.

With the kind of money that RSSB has and Gurinder has personally, there should have been five, well organized eye camps for the poor. Charan pulled it off successfully for years, and now with all the healthcare developments in India and the Guru's extended family in the healthcare business ( Fortis ) instead of stepping up the ante, Gurinder decided to shut it down.

Now, if you can give your opinion on the following three questions, this discussion may be worth pursuing...

01. What do you think about Gurinder's Religare involvement ?
02. Why is Gurinder so interested in swelling the RSSB asset corpus ?
03. Why does Gurinder scorn upon charity, when RSSB money-boxes continue to collect pennies from the poor ?

I'd appreciate a logical answer, even if it comes from an RS injected perspective. Just don't quote some random prose from Nanak and interpret it !
That would be quite lame indeed. You've already said that I will " come back " as a worm or a snake, so I've had enough dogma... :)

Tara,
You obviously don't "know your facts well" regarding why the Eye Camp was stopped at the Dera-All Eye Camps in Punjab State were banned in 2003-2004! Here's a quote from the Dera Sachkhand Bal website:

"Around the year 2003-04 the Punajb Govenment stopped all eye operations being carried out in the field. It was mandatory for all eye operations to be conducted only in well-equipped operation theatres of the hospital. As a result of these orders during the eye camps at the Dera only eye check-up was done and for operations the patients had to be shifted to Sant Sarwan Dass Charitable Hospital at Adda Kathar. Shri Swaran Bangar was not fully satisfied with this arrangement becouse he had a deep attachment to the Dera. So he requested Sant Niranjan Dass Ji to build an eye hospital at the Dera himself and at the same time offered to give a personal donation of Rs. 1,00,01,111 (One Crore One Thousand One Hundred and Eleven Rupees). As a result of his initiative Maharaj Ji acceded to his request and laid the foundation stone of the Sant Sarwan Dass Charitable Eye Hospital at Dera Sachkhand Bal on 10-11-2004."

http://sachkhandballan.net/main.php?page=Sant_Sarwan_Dass_Eye_Charitable_Hospital_Ballan

Another canard bites the dust!

DJ -
The link you have posted is the website of Dera Sach Kahand Ballan which are the headquarters of the Ravidassia community or the Ravidasi faith — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravidasi

The Ravidassia community has no affiliation with RSSB whatsoever. They have their own charitable hospitals, one of which is the Sant Sarwan Dass Charitable Eye Hospital, in the village of Ballan, near Jalandhar in Punjab. At RSSB's Maharaj Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital in Beas ( now merged with the Dera Hospital ) there is no specific eye-care initiative.

I hope you are also aware that all Dera's who held their individual eye-camps were instructed by the Punjab government to join the National Program of Control of Blindness, which RSSB declined. As you know, RSSB does not like to partner with any consortium — whether it was on the ground water contamination issue or on the sex-ratio correction drive, which are two very serious concerns for the people of Punjab.

Besides, the ban you talk of was lifted a year later, while other Dera's from Punjab merely shifted their charitable initiatives in the neighboring state of Haryana — http://derasachasauda.in/eye%2520camp_dec08.html

How much do you know about the other " Dera's " in Punjab and their charitable endeavors ? Like it or not, the fact remains that RSSB has the largest asset corpus, the largest following of devotees and the largest chunk of donations coming in — but the smallest scale of charitable activities.

Would you like a list of the participating Dera's and other charitable trust's in government recognized eye-treatment campaigns ?
Let me know if you are interested.

Did you say duck ?

I thought guru kwakwak was the dug ? :)

Radha Soami Ji,Radha Soami its an Pious word in itself..May God bless you all..

your mind would always divert you to illusions.. and would take away far from realising truth & just finding faults...

Believe in the Lord, have complete faith in him and then see how he is always always with you in your every moment..

may God bless you all..

Please leave at least this pious spritual area from your materialistic, critical comments.. thanks.

Radhasoami Ji, which God is blessing me? Christian god, Muslim god, HIndu god, Jewish god? Some other God?

Likewise, which of these "Lord's" should I believe in? You left out some crucial information in your comment.

Hi Radhasoami ji ,

The method of trusting in
the Lord does not work. I have
seen the radiant forms in ALL
Radhasoami groups give horrible advice
to the diciples,
often destroying the persons life.

These people often slink away
into the darkness and are never
seen again.

It is very sad.

The Guru trusts in money. The disciple
trusts in false hope.

I live in a state of having no hope
at all.

But, I would rather live with no hope,
because I have to remain true to myself.

From the base of no belief, one
can look out on the world with
clear eyes.

The world of reality.

Mike you wrote:

"have seen the radiant forms in ALL
Radhasoami groups give horrible advice
to the diciples, often destroying the persons life."

Could you flesh that out a little? Examples?

Did you SEE the Radiant forms giving the advice, or just talk with people who claimed they chatted with a Radiant Form? They could'a been crazy beforehand.

Hi Jon Weiss,

The story of radiant forms is quite
interesting. Especially since I belonged
to all the RS groups.

But, there are Sant Sat Gurus from
other lineages. They use Krishna
as the mediatation form. Any idea or
conception of Krishna is just fine.
The Sants from Bridraban, I should say.

So, one day when I was young, I got
initiated by one Sant Sat Guru and
meditated on Krishna. The image came to
life and started dancing around to my
astonishment.

Then all of a sudden, a dog barked outside.
The image of Krishna turned into a
dancing dog.

So, I learned early on, the Radiant form
was a mental projection. It never fooled
me again after that.

When I was initiated by Prof. Dr. Agam Mathur, RS Guru at Pipal Mandi, great
grandson of Salig Ram, he told
me to use Salig Ram as my master.

And guess what ?

But, I knew by this time, the tricks
of the mind. No matter how fantastic,
they were all mental creations.

The most remarkable radiant form was
that of Ram Chandra, pranahuti master.
No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't
get it to go away. Yet, with this group,
your not even supposed to see the radiant form. That form gave me remarkable predictions that were all correct. Still,
I dismissed it.

But, the Radiant form can very definitely
be felt as real. I have seen several Kirpal
group people loose their spouses caused by
the radiant form. Their spouses usually
thought they had gone nuts and in fact
were correct.

But, the worst case was a Charan initiate,
a woman. Nicest person you would ever want
to meet. She talked with the Radiant form
all day long. Her husband left her with
two kids and no money.

She was always late to work because the Radiant form told her not to worry about it.
She lost her job and I got her another.
Again, the radiant form told her not
to worry about being late. She was fired again. At any rate, she ended up getting married to a major Beas rep. and I went
to their wedding. Guess what. He had been
married three times before !! Guess why ?
So, you might say this was a match made in heaven (grin).

Your assumption the people whom see the radiant form are nuts is true. But, you
only go nuts if you believe the radiant
form is real, or if you believe what you are
seeing is real.

Quite honestly, I don't know how any
rational person can believe for long
the radiant form is real.

The masts wander around India in a daze
because they think they see God.

I know a few delusional ( but happy ) people.
They are pretty much lost in their " Guru " wonderland.
Heck, whatever makes one happy, as long as getting out of the rabbit hole isn't a painful experience and you can look back on it as a learning experience.


Mike --

An amazing palate of experiences.

My guess would be that you had unusual experiences before you started your long and comprehensive journey through the acres and ashrams of so many gurus??

I wonder if some disciples all too gladly and eagerly assume that their prideful imaginings are a holy interior presence? Not that they mistake a meditation induced "Radiant Form" for Real, but rather they really never had such experience(s) at all, but rather convinced themselves that certain imaginings and emotional fervor were the same thing. Children sometimes believe the sun is following them around.

When you experienced these Radiant Forms were they also accompanied by Sound? Did you concentrate on a certain (inner) Sound and then experience these Radiant Form(s)??

Not many people actually experience anything extraordinary in meditation. Both you and David Lane are valuable in this regard. The two of you might consider cooperating--- and venture to transform this religion of inner experience into a real science. !

Hi Jon,

I believe inner experiences are not real.

But, I believe there are some states of
being that are. There is no way to put
into words a state of being.

I have known David Lane maybe 18 years.
My Bachelor of Science in Accounting comes
from the very school he teaches at now.

We used to send each other books and talk
to each other on the phone long before
these clubs began.

Yet, our personalities are very much
different, yet I agree with David Lane
on our conclusions. Today I am 59 years old.

I also knew historians Maheswari and Agam Mathur.

My long jouney was as a seeker. Nothing
else.

It seems I lived through the Golden Age
of Gurus. So many Gurus, so little time ?

And, my business had me traveling the world
at the time. And, these Gurus would travel
out of India to Europe and America.

I believe most Gurus are insane. In fact,
a 'good' Guru must be insane. That's why I
hesitated getting initiated by Charan, he
obviously was not insane.

A 'good' guru had a very mysterious look,
which I took to mean as Godliness.

Now that I am older, I realize it was insanity.

If a person walks through an insane asylum,
the residents will have the same look
on their faces surely.

So, I spent my life getting advice from
insane people. Not Godmen.

I was young and naive and very foolish.

My conclusion is inner experience is absolutely
worthless. Makes a person no better than they
were before they had them. Just like the Gurus
are no better and hide their faults.

Inner experience does not change character.
It does not create a better world.

Inner experience is the carrot before the donkey.

So, Gurus are insane and inner experience is
worthless.

Where did this get me ? No where.

Absolutely no where.

So, my message is, don't follow in my foolish
footsteps. You people will never be able to
duplicate my journey.

Do the simple things in life. Take walks.
Go to the movies. Read a book.

And, thank fortune you are safe at home.

The Criminally Insane

Has not India unleashed its criminally
insane upon the earth ?

The Asylum doors have been thrown
open by a freak storm.

The Great Madmen have given us God.

And, if we are lucky, we can sit
at the right hand of these Madmen
in heaven.

Is it not time for a cattle drive ?

Is it not time these Wildmen to be herded
back in the corral ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMfMXCyr9z0

Mike — very interesting thoughts. The essential problem that I had with the RS philosophy was that there was very little emphasis on personal development. I have not met even a handful of initiates ( and I know many, many RS's ) who have progressively developed themselves, or displayed a different disposition as they grew older. If they were good people, it was by virtue of their own character and if they were not so nice ( IMO ), that too was simply because that's just they way they were. It had little to do with being " initiated " or on in the RS fold. Of course, at that time I assumed that the " meditation " wasn't working for them — the karmic load being too heavy.

( RF or not ? ) ... When I was nine or ten I was lying on the grass in my garden on a sunny winter afternoon. I saw Charan come up from behind a rose-bush and he stood there for about 10 seconds : he draped his shawl around his left shoulder and smiled at me, then he walked away and disappeared. I don't know if that was the Radiant Form, but yes it was enthralling while it lasted. For many years I yearned for a second experience. I've also had ( and continue to have ) many dreams of Sawan and the other RS Guru's. On the other hand, about ten years ago, I had this awful feeling and was convinced that a Kal like creature was in my driveway. I couldn't sleep till four in the morning. Then all of a sudden I had this surge where I felt that I was being protected — it was very strange, believable, crazy and real at the same time. I shared this with an older family member and he said that there was definitely something karmic behind it. But I was unsure. I remember having second thoughts about the experience and a voice inside me tugged at telling me that I was loco.

You mentioned something about India unleashing the criminally insane...
Well, India is the " holiest " land on earth and it is also the most corrupt ! It is an irony. Things are corrupt at every level here - China does not even compare. Yes, our greatest export has been our diverse religiosity : God's, Guru's et al.

"Well, India is the " holiest " land on earth and it is also the most corrupt !"
quote Tara

Your posts are very good Tara. To my mind
being the holiest country means the exact
same as the most corrupt.

The terms are not mutually exclusive,
....... they are kissing cousins.

Right Tara...few if any RSSB folks have anything significant to show for their years of devotion.Thats why so much magical thinking and emphasis on talk about Masters hand in their worldly affairs substitutes for REAL PROGRESS...lol.

Tara - thank you for your interesting post.

Always assumed that "spiritual progress" would upgrade each personality. Not through emphasis, but just naturally. How can one be lifted from the dregs of karma and NOT become a more refined, loving, and deLightful person?

Just shut up all of you..
there is nothing such about RSSB connected to Religare and that land issue...
It's not all your business to see what and how they do..
when you are not sure what is there in real and just don't bark anything about anybody...

Coolwista:

I think it is sensible and incumbent upon every potential and current devotee of Gurinder Singh to know exactly what their Sat Guru is up to in his business dealings. They should delve deeply into the matter and find out why a guru who decries this creation is so involved in business affairs pertaining to it.

You know, the time you are wasting in futile chatter could be spent in meditation in order to get to know yourselves. All the answers are within you, but you search for them outside. Dont worry about anothers dealings. Deal with yourself.

Gunther, so why are you spending time on the Internet searching for web sites/blogs to complain about? Why are you worrying about what other people say? Perhaps you should take your own advice and deal with yourself before you try to control other people.

Remember: one person's "futlle chatter" is another person's "enjoyable conversation."

gunther,
You wrote: the time you are wasting in futile chatter could be spent in meditation in order to get to know yourselves.

What makes you think that sitting down repeating five meaningless words for hours on end will somehow tell you anything about yourself?

All it will really tell you is that you're a friggin idiot.

You do this for years on end - and get no results - it is insane to think that something will suddenly change and the heavens will open up and Sat Purush will shower his grace.

Especially as he is actually a fictional character - and is not real.

Meditation is only designed to tire the mind according to the current RSSB master.

The teachings have been upgraded. You need an upload.
full details here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50


"Remember: one person's "futlle chatter" is another person's "enjoyable conversation."

--This passage was so funny. Thanks for making me laugh so hard, this Saturday morning.

RSSB has done a lot for the Sangat, all over the world not just India. Many people often view them with ignorance because they have not actually gone to see how the Sangat actually is. I am not a follower but attended satsang with a friend once or twice and have seen the passion the satsangis have for their beliefs. Most of them attend their own religious venues along with satsang on sunday. They have learned to be spiritual while keeping ties with their true religious roots. The satsangi's openly donate money because they believe in the teachings. It is the same as Church collection baskets, or fees paid at the synagogue. Everyone profits, the money is used to improve these venues. Radha Soami Satsang Beas do not focus only to improve the lives of the followers in India but around the world. Satsangi's love the venues, because they are a place where they can go to forget their worldy problems. If any of you ever get the chance, attend a satsang weekend like I have. You will experience a sense of calm, that you can't get on a daily basis. One should experience and learn about all aspects that influence the beliefs and actions of others before stating your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's better to follow the phrase "Think before you speak."

Nina says : " RSSB has done a lot for the Sangat, all over the world not just India. "

-- RSSB has expanded its asset corpus in India and abroad, but how does that qualify as " doing a lot " for the Sangat ? What is RSSB's current charitable status / initiative ? When was the last time RSSB financially contributed to a social cause / challenge ?

Nina says : " Many people often view them with ignorance because they have not actually gone to see how the Sangat actually is. "

-- Some of the ex-sats's here have been speakers and the others are better versed with the philosophy than GSD's closest cronies, so you're clearly off-track.

Nina says : " I am not a follower but attended satsang with a friend once or twice and have seen the passion the satsangis have for their beliefs. "

-- So what ? You can be passionate about anything. How does " the passion for their beliefs " make them kind and compassionate, or good people ?

Nina says : " Most of them attend their own religious venues along with satsang on Sunday. They have learned to be spiritual while keeping ties with their true religious roots. "

-- According to the doctrine, the Guru is a Perfect Living Master / God In Human Form — so no temple-treks are needed. So, the people you speak of are either confused or open-minded. How would you define " true religious roots " and " learned to be spiritual " ? These phrases sound quite lame to me.

Nina says : " The satsangi's openly donate money because they believe in the teachings. It is the same as Church collection baskets, or fees paid at the synagogue. "

-- Obviously. These organizations need funds and are funded by the faithful. However, sometimes, donations are not " openly " given as favors are often exchanged when it comes down to politicians and bureaucrats.

Nina says : " Everyone profits, the money is used to improve these venues. "

-- You have a very naive perspective about everything RS ! Please tell me, how do Satsangi's " profit " ? Or, do you mean " benefit " ? The venues have always been well maintained, but how does better infrastructure at Satsang venues help the poor multitudes cope with the perils of their everyday life ?

Nina says : " Radha Soami Satsang Beas do not focus only to improve the lives of the followers in India but around the world. "

-- The person who told you that is either lying, too sucked-in or plain deluded. And, you sound like you've been given a good dose of an RS primer ! RSSB does not have initiatives that are centered on " improving the lives " ( read that as — health / hygiene / nutrition / education ) of any followers.

Nina says : " Satsangi's love the venues, because they are a place where they can go to forget their worldy problems. "

-- Again, you're not speaking from your own experience. It seems like you're parroting someone else's views. Besides, not everyone attends Satsang to forget their blues — some people genuinely seek out the promise of the mantra meditation. This follower-friend of yours, I think she's given you some very skewed impressions.

Nina says : " If any of you ever get the chance, attend a satsang weekend like I have. You will experience a sense of calm, that you can't get on a daily basis. "

-- Been there, done that. A sense of calm can be found in any place. Maybe you need an RS Satsang to induce a calming state, but I need a eucalyptus oil massage or a long walk with my dogs.

Nina says : " One should experience and learn about all aspects that influence the beliefs and actions of others before stating your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's better to follow the phrase " think before you speak. " ... ... "

-- That's being preachy without practicing ! This is a discussion forum where opinions are encouraged. Thank you for yours.

nina tara is not much aware of rssb activities,what all she says is her personal hatred for rs path and rs followers,
she has no accurate knowledge and true facts with her,
but then she will take you long way discussing her blah blah blah,
and at last she anyhow gains satisfactions,
but you will gain nothing.
actually she is a silly lady just pouring out her hatred for rssb,
because she got initiated with a sense of guarantee that she will see inner world,
which right now doesnt exist for her,and the same world once seemed reality for her,
so nina,
these bloggers will talk against duality,but they themselves are dual personalities.
one will flaunt and say i have spent 35
years and the result is i m here,
well but yes,if you too has started doubting the path,seeing with your own dual point of views,
if you too lost faith,think rude bad about your master,
if you are also diluted,upset,irritated,frustrated,unable to progress(because of your own lacking),
and think that you are wasting your time with RSSB,then perhaps here you will have a company,
you can waste lot of time here,talking to them for the topics(which makes no sense)and most have them have no meanings.

and a point to be noted,
most of the regular bloggers are old people,with retirement,have ample of time,
as may be they have been rejected by the society,family and friends.

so nina choice is yours.
According to this blog-either waste your time with RSSB
or according to rssb-waste your time here in this blog.

Oh yeah!
Tara and me, we got us some...
♫ ♫ ♫ !!! SATTISFACTTION !!! ♫ ♫ ♫
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zylJUbqIggo


Outside the Box

We think when we die our consciousness
dies.

But, could there be something completely
different from consciousness, we couldn't
even dream of ?

If this existed , how could we use
it in our logic, if we don't even
know, or suspect it ?

Something no philosopher, or preacher,
has even speculated on.

Than maybe Mike that cannot be realized with mind maybe that can be realized by It self and maybe informs the mind that it was realized even before.

Mike?

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