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April 09, 2010

Comments

Hello to all.
Even though I am a Radha Soami believer, I wonder why Babaji and his family are involved in large monetary dealings of this kind. Something is not right here. I find it difficult to accept this. I see that Mr. Jaickismin Balani is also on the board of directors. He was Babaji's ex-boss, the gentleman who Babaji worked for in Spain. This whole thing is sad and unbelievable.

Hi Brian,

Read your post just now.

I was wondering about haq-halal ki kamayee (honestly earned bread) -- which those in the Satsangs make a big fuzz about.

As a journalist, I used to work only about three hours a day. Satsangis used to call me scumbag.

Now I wonder what would they call their Guru who rakes in millions without working.

Hi Deepak, the RSSB representatives gave me that book after the initiation ceremony. Though my translation of the title was ' Earning Your Living Through Rightful & Honest Means ' it has a farmer tilling his field with a cattle-plough on the cover. So, on one hand, RSSB distributes this book after initiation. But, on the other, the Guru's 20 year old son is gifted with a ten-percent equity of a one billion dollar company he has never worked a single day for ! This is an absolute contradiction. What applies to the Sangat must first apply to the Guru and his family. What about the karmic implications of these deals, I wonder...

There were always questionable aspects about the RS theology to begin with, even in the days of Charan Singh and the other Great Masters. However, Gurinder has taken his ' gurudom ' to an entirely new level !

If you are a journalist based in India, it would be great if you know someone who might be interested to do a story. Many are ready to give their inputs.

@brian - its been a few years since I last visited your blog to see if you had anything new and fresh to say, but sadly its the same old intellectual bucket banging and rssb mud slinging.

Its obvious to anyone with a real hunger for developing a quiet mind, that the energy you and your same old tucson tao et al crew - that you are not investing the minimum time per day in rooting yourself within yourself.

Its always been easier to bluster and bloggerise than it is to still the mind and PRACTICE the teachings.

Also, you make no reference to personal enquiry within rssb about this matter, or heaven forbid - approach Master and enquire his opinion or comment on the matter.

When you were de listed as a speaker for rssb - as your talks were academic and likely as tiresome as your self serving posts -your nose was put out of joint. This blow to your ego fueled your efforts to create your own following of yes-men and women. All happier gabbing about spirituality rather than quietly trying to live it.

I'm sure your ego is still as big as big as you on several occasions have admitted it to be, and your tiresome themes will live on for the next couple of years. Good luck talking about the car you should be driving.

Brad,

I think mud slinging is useful, 'cos sometimes the mud sticks.

Bobo, well said !

Brad, you're wrong about the reason I was "fired" from being a satsang speaker. As I wrote in this post, the reason given by the RSSB representative was that this blog was making people uncomfortable. That's a fact. See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/10/ive_been_fired.html

Excerpt:
-----------------
Well, my Meister Eckhart fantasy has been fulfilled. I’ve been fired from giving talks (known as “satsangs”) at meetings of my spiritual group because my Church of the Churchless writings have been too heretical.

Yesterday our local secretary informed me that he had been told by a regional representative, Vince Savarese, that my blogging about Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) had caused a lot of people to be uncomfortable. In New York. In India. All around the RSSB world.

Naturally I blurted out “Wow, that’s great! People are reading my blog!” It didn’t bother me to hear that I’ve been making some people uncomfortable. I regularly hear from others that they appreciate my posts, so it all evens out. Yin and yang. Like and dislike. Attraction and repulsion. That’s the way of the world.

Regardless, the RSSB powers that be don’t want me to be a speaker anymore. I said, “That’s fine. Now the folks at the Radhasoami studies discussion group who have been taking bets that I wouldn’t last as a speaker beyond mid-2006 will feel vindicated.”

Interestingly, about ten days ago I’d been asked to write another article by an editor of the official RSSB magazine, “Spiritual Link.” She emailed me, “I so enjoy reading what you write on your blog. It is that kind of energy that I’d like to see in an article.” So what one hand chastiseth, another hand praiseth.

In a comment above, Brad says --- " Also, you make no reference to personal enquiry within rssb about this matter, or heaven forbid - approach Master and enquire his opinion or comment on the matter. "

Assuming that you are referring to this particular post, representatives of RSSB have been informally contacted by a few ( still believing ) followers, but they refuse to discuss Religare. For a more formal approach, try sending an email to the RSSB management to see whether you'll get a reply.

Why do you write " heaven forbid " as a prefix to " approach the Master " in your comment ? In a true guru-disciple relationship, there is no hesitation. One is free to discuss everything with the teacher who usually encourages questions.

I personally would have loved to hear one of Brian's " academic " talks instead of the fear inducing, dogma ridden and anti life sermons at Satsang.

@ TARA,

RSSB is not the hot gurudom that it once was.

Today, the most popular Gurus in India are somebody like sri Sri Ravishankar, Baba Ramdev et al (who are practical rather than give the old-guilt inducing morality).

I see institutions like RSSB as collapsing institutions. They are the older versions of Indian spirituality.

Let it die a natural death.

Sri Ravishankar and these others are same as going to a talk by Deepak Chopra, similar self help, bettering the world, psychoanalytical improve your external conditions mumbo jumbo that one gets, similar to the mumbo jumbo on here.

So Brian you have written to Baba Gurinder Singh directly and inquired from him where you stand in relation to your personal spiritual progress, since you are no longer required as a recognised speaker from any RS platform?

and you have also inquired directly whether RSSB funds have been usurped into any of these private family share transactions, or any of these financial associations with Religare or Ranbaxy?

Deepak - Interesting point, RS does not appeal to the educated lot and to the younger generation in India. The innocent and gullible villagers make up 95 percent of the devotee-bank.

Hukai - Self help is great, bettering the world - even greater ! And, improving one's external conditions - that's exactly what the RS guru is doing. So what do you think is better :

A. A whole lot of practical mumbo jumbo that addresses your present life.
B. A whole lot of authoritarian mumbo jumbo that clearly contradicts the karma rhetoric within its writings.

Brad,

you are so utterly self-assured and presumptious about others that look like a fool.

Here are some of your absurd statements:

"since I last visited your blog to see if you had anything new and fresh to say, but sadly its the same old intellectual bucket banging and rssb mud slinging."

-- you sound very much like another narrow-minded anti-intellect, anti-reason, anti-science RS fundamentalist (like Ashy). and in case you don't get it, there is some troublesome financial scandal and hypocrisy brewing around the upper eschalon of the RSSB and the guru's family. does it bother you that some of us find that corrupt? does it bother you that not everyone is a brainwashed little cult twerp like you?

"Its obvious to anyone with a real hunger for developing a quiet mind, [...] that you are not investing the minimum time per day in rooting yourself within yourself."

-- how do you know how much time i or others spend "investing" in meditation?? you simply don't know. you don't even have one iota of knowledge or understanding about my spiritual station or my spiritual sadhana (practice).

"easier to bluster and bloggerise than it is to still the mind and PRACTICE the teachings."

-- how do you know whether others are not practicising, or what their state of mind is?? it is YOU who is all "bluster" and presumption.

"you [Brian] make no reference to personal enquiry within rssb about this matter, or heaven forbid - approach Master and enquire his opinion or comment on the matter."

-- who gives a shit what the opinion of your "Master" is. i don't. the facts are the facts. you got some problem handling the facts?? it appears likely that you're in denial.

"[Brian] your talks were academic and likely as tiresome as your self serving posts"

-- you have something against being academic or academia?? or are you just a dumb-ass high-school dropout?? you seem that way.

"This blow to your ego fueled your efforts to create your own following of yes-men and women."

-- NO man, the people who comment on this blog are not "yes-men" at all. i think they would find you rather insulting. and fyi, i don't suck up to anyone, not even to your phoney RS master and his feudalistic slave colony. and its RS goons like YOU who are the real guru-cult "yes-men".

"All happier gabbing about spirituality rather than quietly trying to live it."

-- I have 'lived' more years of profound spirituality and mysticism than the years you have been alive, i dare say. you don't know anything about me.

"[Brian] I'm sure your ego is still as big [...] and your tiresome themes will live on for the next couple of years."

-- in order to make that statement, by necessity YOUR ego has to be even BIGGER, and more stupid, and more "tiresome".

LOL!... in fact, you're a f-ing joke, fat-headed Brad-y boy.

Better luck trolling at the next blog.


hukai says:

"you have written to Baba Gurinder Singh directly and inquired from him where you stand in relation to your personal spiritual progress"

-- what does that cultic pseudo-guru know about anything, much less somone's "personal spiritual progress"??

what a friggin hokey jokey you are, Hukai.


http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:210JyK5Ite4J:www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpfiling/AttachHis/Religare_Enterprises_Ltd_020310_SAST13.pdf+Religare+Enterprises+Ltd+(CRD4).pdf&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgG-KTE2c6-ZQZsRn5p29TNNKqdUPAq8Jg506PTzH_YlmdMCfBj7qVKiOJFmjMNfo3rXk2TRdf3-A4e6Xa2oU3Vs1DXMaevIGFhCwu0mUrdCNjnR-ZcokfHhg9j0RPiFM1GTNN7&sig=AHIEtbQQKvMXJ_IjZZ8F78oqk5FCDPqWqA

dear Mr.ABC(I don't know ur Name",

Greetings!

I have read ur blog dated 11Apr 2010.

First of all Believe in Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature and In God!!

See first of all check your experiences of Life, especially the bad ones like your mother father divorced and others too where people ditch each other for there benefits or may be some kind of other problems.

See you have experienced not a life which you desire!
your desire was: a kind of life where no one break any trust of any one, Everybody loves everybody kind of

Why i m writing all this because your bad experiences has CHANGED YOUR VISION, the way of percepting the Things especially People!

Now come to the point:
First of All The Current Guru :Babaji Gurinder Singh ji, has NEVER SAID that he is God!
his teaching(I m not sure wheather you have listen his lectures or not) where he says that the God is Word/Shabad etc. Guru is Medium who helps you to reach to your final destination :to GOD. So don't Considered that God is making money and his family too.
And if the Issue is that they are making Money and not giving it to the charity then you are right here.
Do you know even that how much they are helping people here in India?
there money goes in construction, running orgainisation, helping people, still the Hospital is going on , etc

I want to know what's your Point is:
He is making money?
or
He is not God??

If any of the scandel of money is going on (definately some people are involved)
But the Guru's Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life

Try to listen his teachings and trust on life, CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION!!
and if have have PERSONALLY experienced the issue of money then pls write to me in detail. not that buddy is saying this or that guy has experinced this. Your experince With the GURU??
We will ckeck it out.
Regards,
Ritu
ritu.perception@gmail.com

Ritu,

You stated,

"First of all Believe in Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature and In God!!"

and

"But the Guru's Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life"

--Are you saying the purpose is to spread the "belief" in spirituality, truth, honesty and life? I wonder if it is possible to spread a belief in dishonesty?

--Did someone train you to think this way?

Thanks for a reply,
Roger

Ritu,

it seems that you do not understand and realize that the issue here is about "Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature".

why should anyone have to or be told to "Believe In God", as you say???

believing or not believing in God is an individual matter. belief in god is NOT required in order for one to seek the truth, to live and appreciate life, and to be in harmony with nature. you are trying to impose your belief in god, onto others. thats not a good way to start off here.

"check your experiences of Life, especially the bad ones like your mother father divorced and others too where people ditch each other for there benefits or may be some kind of other problems."

-- i didn't have any of those problems or issues, and, that sort of thing has nothing to do with the RSSB guru's family financial scandal.

"your desire was: a kind of life where no one break any trust of any one, Everybody loves everybody"

-- that was not my desire, or my illusions, so you are wrong about that.

"your bad experiences has CHANGED YOUR VISION, the way of percepting the Things especially People!"

-- what "bad experiences"?? i think you are assuming things that are not yours to assume. people's perception of this is chaging all the time due to all sorts of factors. that has nothing to do with the facts about the RSSB guru and Religare.

"First of All The Current Guru: Babaji Gurinder Singh ji, has NEVER SAID that he is God!"

-- it is implied by the fact that he is worshipped as the shabd incarnate. it is also impled by the fact that he goes along with that widespread belief, and he does not do anything to change it. he is guiotly by omission.

"his teaching(I m not sure wheather you have listen his lectures or not) where he says that the God is Word/Shabad etc."

-- yes, thats is my point. it is taught that "the shabd is God", and that "the master is the incarnation or the embodiment of the shabd". so that makes the master equal to God. this is obvious, but believers such as yourself do not want to admit this. and the RS master does noting to dispell this belief.

"Guru is Medium who helps you to reach to your final destination: to GOD."

-- that is a basically a religious belief.

"So don't Considered that God is making money and his family too."

-- why not?? the master (who is considered to be God incarnate) and his family ARE indeed making money. so you are wrong.

"And if the Issue is that they are making Money and not giving it to the charity then you are right here."

-- they are making money. i don't know what they give to charity, that remains to be seen. i doubt that they give very much. they feel entitled to live as wealty individuals. and RSSB is a feudalistic structured cult and society. and the master is the king, and his family and his inner circle are the overlords.

"Do you know even that how much they are helping people here in India? there money goes in construction, running orgainisation, helping people, still the Hospital is going on , etc"

-- they, the master and his family are contributing little or nothing. all that stuff is paid for by the donations coming from satsangis, from the sangat.

"I want to know what's your Point is: He is making money? or He is not God??"

-- both. HE (and his family) ARE making money, a great deal of money (relitively speaking) -and- HE is regarded as the same as the shabd incarnate or "God". so its both.

"the Guru's Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life"

-- that may be his purpose, but he isn't necessarily doing that. just because he is the leader of RS, that doesn't automatically make him virtuous and wise.

"Try to listen his teachings and trust on life, CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION!!"

-- i don't care about his so-called teachings. i happen think he is a fraud. and i have good reason to think that, and so i don't need to "change my perception".

"and if [you] have PERSONALLY experienced the issue of money then pls write to me in detail."

-- the financial data and information is already publicly available. you are just ignorant of the facts, or in denial.

"Your experince With the GURU??"

-- Brian has seen him, and so have i, and so have others. so what?

"We will ckeck it out."

-- who are YOU to "check" anything out?? as if you are some sort of authority?? give me a break. and all the pertinent information is already out there. you are just not open to looking at the real facts. you want to remain stuck in your illusion and fantasy.


Ritu, this is the first half of my reply to your comment and is directly in context with the subject of this post.

You write - " First of all, believe in honesty... "
-- I value honesty, and complete transparency goes hand-in-hand with honesty. So please tell your Guru to update the RSSB website where he states how he sustains himself. There is no disclosure of Religare or the millions of dollars that were gifted to him and his family.

You write - " Believe in truth... "
-- The SEBI documents give us facts about Religare's shareholdings pattern, and the prospectus is available for everyone's viewing. A fellow blogger ( Adrian ) has sent us a link above to make things clearer.

You write - " Believe in life... "
-- I do and surprisingly, your Guru does too ! He is making the most of his time as the leader of a spiritual organization. Ironically though, the sermons tend to be quite anti-life ! What do you think ?

You write - " Believe in nature... "
-- I'm quite a nature lover, I even love the bees that your Guru orders to kill in the Dera. ( Yes, they are sprayed with the DTT aerosol. )

You write - " Believe in God... "
-- Eh ! God ? Well, I do believe in the supreme truth and if you want to call that the unconventional ' God ' then it may be the only thing we agree on.

Ritu -
( Three glasses of brunello down, I'll try to stick to my usual politeness... )
This is the second half of my reply to your comment above -

Gurinder Singh more than implies that he's God, else he would have turned the RS literature on its head. Also, he would do away with the ' darshan ' requisite. As a logical after-thought, he would stop using that big picture of his on the first page of the ' Spiritual Link ' monthly divinity dose, and probably would consider being more accessible to the Sangat. Most importantly, he would refrain from telling Satsangis to visualize his ' roop ' while meditating. ( Now, don't tell me he does not say that, the RS representatives give those instructions during initiation, so those orders come from Gurinder Singh directly. )

If there is only the ' one ' then why would he propagate any of the above ?

You say - " ... the money goes in construction, running the organization, helping people, still the Hospital is going on ... "
-- The construction is done by unpaid sevadars.
-- The organization is run by volunteers, everything is seva.
-- Helping people ? Which people ? His sons, perhaps ? Wake up girl, he helps only the inner-circle, yet the Sangat seems to be helping him.
-- " Still " the hospital is going on : why, do you think that it should have been shut ? As if it is a big freaking deal to run one hospital ! There are doctors doing seva there ! There should have been at least twenty such hospitals in Punjab by now, considering how rapidly the RS cult has grown and assuming that money is not a problem - the purchase of a 5-million Euro property in Amsterdam and another 4-million USD property in Hong Kong does point in the direction of a cash rich organization. So they're " still " running the hospital ? Wow, how generous is that !

The RS guru is making money - big time.
The RS guru is not God - I'd like to think that the big guy up there would love the entire creation, not one-tenth of it.

You say - " If any scandal of money is going on, definitely some people are involved... "
-- Thankfully, it seems like you have accepted that there is a ' scandal ' at some level.

You say - " But the Guru's purpose is to spread spirituality, the truth, the honesty, the life... "
-- Well, that is what you expect of him, but he may not be necessarily doing that. There is a seeming disconnect between the two statements above, and you're trying to justify something to yourself.

At the end you say " We will check it out... "
-- Really ? You're putting up a defense for something that has you trapped. Stop offering yourself in the line of fire when you're in doubt about what you are defending.

I have a feeling that you may not post here again, but you may come around to read the replies to your comments. Take care Ritu, think for yourself. And remember - if there is a God out there, he has no favorites.

Tara, I think you may make even more sense after three glasses of wine than you do otherwise. Which implies...you should drink more! Then do more interfacing on the Internets.

well i'm mighty proud of you Tara. you done real good. so good, that you've earned your own place in the Churchless Hall of Fame (or is it infamy?), right here alongside tucson and meself, tAo.

so let us raise all our glasses to toast Tara, a gal much like the character that Uma Thurman played in Kill Bill Vol. 2, by the name of 'Black Mamba'... cause she kicks ass. and give that lady another drink.

i'm rather glad to see that there is now someone here to carry on after tucson and i finally disappear like the naguals and sages Don Juan and Lao Tzu... into the vast mysterous mountains of the great unknown.


Three cheers to Tara...one of the refreshing voices amidst a cacophony of mumbo jumbo.

Dear tAo, Tucson and Brian,
Your knowledge and understanding of Western and Eastern philosophies is expansive and admirable. I feel like I have so much yet to learn, and I hope to be fortunate enough to continue on my path of awareness. With your thought provoking posts you give the younger generation a great educational place.
Respects.

tAo

This is churchless blog. You discuss about your own ideology and own guru or whatsoever and don't spit any wrong words against satsang and its gurus. You don't have any moral right.

Anirudh Kumar Satsangi -
Please read my previous comment addressed to you on another thread.

Have you heard of the term - freedom of expression ? Everybody has every right to express what they feel. You sound like an RS policeman - running behind us, blowing his whistle and waving a baton in the air !

And, you have used the words ' moral right ' in your comment above.
Kindly expound on the subject of this post with regard to ' morality ' and the role of a guru as an example to his followers.

Come up with something substantial, else the churchless force will just whisk past you and you'll be left finding your whistle, baton and hat.

Others freedom of expression should also be respected

When a psychiatrist or therapist charges money for their "concern" there is already a duel relationship. That is why transference is so common in paid therapeutic relationships. And there is certainly a very authoritarian structure to them. The therapist is the one who is "helping" the client. The client must reveal their most intimate vulnurabilities at the price to get that help, and then the money adds more to it. Seems to me this is the real one-sided and seriously dualistic relationship.

If there is an organization investing in companies that are strictly vegetarian, strictly "green", don't pollute, have themselves large contributions to charity, and are profitable - this is the way to go!

It's a good model for how each of us should carefully spend or invest our money.

Stock is stock - the price can go up or down depending upon how well the company is run. If Howard Hughes Sr wants to gift Howard Jr with controlling shares of Hughes Tool and Die, that is his business.

Insider trading as an illegal activity is only applicable to shares of stock that skyrocket immediately AFTER the insider buys the stock, or plummets AFTER the insider has sold the stock. But then other information comes to light - the highly profitable sale of the company was shared to insiders before it took place, or the accounts were cooked to reflected more profit than was real. In the absence of such information, in the absence of sharp changes in stock value, you cannot use the label "insider trading" unless you are simply trying to find some fault somewhere.

But if you have found a way to invest in clean companies that live by the highest standards, and provide opportunity to your children to practice shepherding their inheritance wisely by giving them stock (instead of cash) all you have done is a service to your family and the world.

King Januka, the wealthy king-mystic said "pleasure and pain, it's all the same."

A mystic can be a pauper or a king, and both can be found historically.

Spence, actually "insider trading" has two meanings, one legal and one illegal. The first refers to non-market transfers of stock by company insiders, which is what happened with Religare. The second is using insider information to profit from stock trades.

Anirudh Kumar Satsangi -
You say " Others freedom of expression should also be respected... "
Funny. In most of your comments you're the one who tells people to shut-up !

Spence writes -
" When a psychiatrist or therapist charges money for their "concern" there is already a dual relationship. That is why transference is so common in paid therapeutic relationships. And there is certainly a very authoritarian structure to them. The therapist is the one who is "helping" the client. The client must reveal their most intimate vulnurabilities at the price to get that help, and then the money adds more to it. Seems to me this is the real one-sided and seriously dualistic relationship. "

--> When you are an " initiate " there is already a transference which is paid by the disciple in kind - dedicating time to meditation, physical seva in some form, giving one tenth of your earnings to RSSB, obsessive vegetarianism and absolute teetotaling. And there is certainly a very authoritarian and hierarchal structure within RSSB as an organization and as a spiritual sect. The guru is supposed to be the one who " helps " the disciple, but if you're a poor disciple, you'll probably never get to meet him. However, if you're an non-RS politician, you'll be invited for tea. The initiate must strictly follow the tenets at the price to get " grace " but one may never see the " radiant form " as promised. Seems to me this is the real one-sided and seriously misleading relationship.

Spence writes -
" If there is an organization investing in companies that are strictly vegetarian, strictly "green", don't pollute, have themselves large contributions to charity, and are profitable - this is the way to go! "

--> This is not " an / any " organization, this is a spiritual sect where the doctrine states that the guru is GIHF and his prime role in a disciples' life is to lead him to Sach Khand. Majority of the Religare employees are not vegetarian by choice, vegetarianism is imposed on them as a " rule " of the company. No, Religare is not " green " but for the logo and corporate identity - the company did not give bicycles to their top brass during last festive season ( http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News-By-Industry/Religare-gives-BMWs-Mercs-to-employees/articleshow/5140589.cms ) so they do promote Co2 polluting automobiles. And, which are the " large contributions " to charity by either RSSB or Religare ? Lastly, RSSB is profitable ( donations ) but Religare is not ( unless you think that a subsidiary fueled by the sale of the primary company accounts for genuine growth ).

Spence writes -
It's a good model for how each of us should carefully spend or invest our money.

--> It's a good model for how each of us should carefully think before we spend our time or invest our love in a spiritual master who clearly is not detached from the material pursuits of life.

Spence writes -
" Stock is stock - the price can go up or down depending upon how well the company is run. If Howard Hughes Sr wants to gift Howard Jr with controlling shares of Hughes Tool and Die, that is his business. "

--> Agreed, but I'd assume that Hughes Sr. would not be the adored GIHF for a few million people who have their hopes pinned on his promise of salvation. And, Howard Jr would probably not be in college.

Spence writes -
" Insider trading as an illegal activity is only applicable to shares of stock that skyrocket immediately AFTER the insider buys the stock, or plummets AFTER the insider has sold the stock. But then other information comes to light - the highly profitable sale of the company was shared to insiders before it took place, or the accounts were cooked to reflected more profit than was real. In the absence of such information, in the absence of sharp changes in stock value, you cannot use the label "insider trading" unless you are simply trying to find some fault somewhere. "

--> I second Brian's comment. And, only the guru's sons were gifted shares at INR-10 so I guess they are special in a different way than the RS literatures' definition of being special, which of course has little to do with familial relationships.

Spence writes -
" But if you have found a way to invest in clean companies that live by the highest standards, and provide opportunity to your children to practice shepherding their inheritance wisely by giving them stock (instead of cash) all you have done is a service to your family and the world. "

--> How do you know that Religare is a clean company that lives by the highest standards ? Strange that it does not figure in this list ( http://www.greatplacetowork.in/best/list-in.htm ) don't you think ? Maybe, what you are really trying to say is that the RS guru is clean and lives by the highest standards... Okay, that would be your opinion then. And, I'd like to think that encouraging your children to make it on their own would make them less dependent on their inheritance. Let them rub and rough with the world ! Giving a college going kid a chunk of stock is just bad parenting.

[Note: I deleted the offensive comment Tara is referring to. Like she said, it was cowardly. Why Radha Soami Satsang Beas initiates believe that posting profane insulting comments reflects positively on their faith is beyond my understanding -- Blogger Brian]

halohumper - maybe you could take a few lessons in blogging etiquette, if thats at all possible for an RS fanatic a.k.a Ashy !

Lets have a genuine argument.
Abusing is just cowardly.

halothumper a.k.a ashy -
Mediation relaxes the senses and induces a calmer state of mind. Obviously, you have not achieved much ! That being said, your extreme fanaticism reflects poorly on your chosen spiritual path - Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

Well, I think I've made some valid points somewhere that have made you question your own beliefs. Else, you would not be reacting like this !

Go, put your creative writing skills to better use.

If all the money in the world was put in Guruji's lap and the laps of his sons, satsangis on the whole would be delighted, because a satsangi would believe that guruji and his sons who would be believed to be very high souls, would do the very best thing with the money. Whatever was done with the money, no matter how questionable to outsiders, would be highly applauded by insiders.

If sant mat was a democracy and not a dictatorship, then, the guru would ask his investors for suggestions on how to spend any money, debate the issue with a hundred or so accountants, lawyers and so forth, publish in advance what was going to be spent and on what and consider objections, make sure that all incoming money was externally audited and a prospectus sent out to all literate folk who were on e-mail. Tax would be paid out, because santmat is not a religion supposedly, but a prescribed system of how to get to the highest level, just as motivational speaking companies must pay tax.

What a good comment Catherine !
I believe that public disclosure would be rather important in this case, specially if you're the spiritual and administrative head of RSSB.

Tara, the thing is... how do you advise or question God's decisions? You can't, because he's all knowing etc. The guru virtually cannot work in a democratic way, because he presents as God. If his dealings are under-informed, or questionable, or a mistake, he wouldn't want anyone to know, because he would be exposed.

The best way would be to teach his inherited imprisonment approach only and get his stock brokers to invest. Then he can say, ah well, so and so made a mistake and that was his karma.

People who agree with the unquestionable rights and afterlife sequences of guru god, want to be shepherded, don't want to think, want to surrender, just want to sit in a quiet corner for two and a half hours a day and repeat the mantra for the rest while doing the bare minimum other work. Similar people with less ambition who don't find santmat might choose rather, to watch t.v. or sleep a lot.

tell me Catherine what do you do to free your mind from self deluded superstition and mind filled indoctrination?

Seems that all these enlightened beings that come to websites such as these are the very most bound up fools thinking they've arrived at some clear sighted self illumined self righteous paradise.

Your understanding of who the guru is compared to who you are is so fundamentally flawed its simply not even remotely funny.

By the grace of universal evolutionary will we can but hope that such poor irresolute fools catch a wake up before the real sleep overtakes their vision less souls.

Cathrine,
( The last paragraph of your comment ) reminds me of some of my family members who ardently tread the RS path - more out of fear, less out of faith.

I for one could never meditate ! I would try my hardest, but I'd spend most of my time ( meditating ) making mental notes about ' worldly ' stuff. Though I had a lot of love for the Master and it was very difficult to shed the belief system that I was brought up with - the further I moved away from RS, the more centered and easy I felt !

IMO, the present guru is a capitalist in the garb of an enlightened mystic.
( Apologies to those who may find my opinion offensive. )

one smack takes the cake A.K.A Ashy -
( Why don't you just stick to one name I wonder... )

You write -
" Seems that all these enlightened beings that come to websites such as these are the very most bound up fools thinking they've arrived at some clear sighted self illumined self righteous paradise. "

Firstly, you come here too and are probably writing a reply to my comment above as I type this one, so you are :

A. Another " very most bound up fool " ( !! )
B. Someone " who has arrived at some clear sighted self illumined self righteous paradise. " ( Correction, that is not you !! )

And, by the way, before you pull out your gun - I'd rather be thought of as a fool, than be fooled by a contradiction ridden spiritual mission.

So, spare me your onslaught ( it will probably be deleted ) and put in that time to write something about RS for your RS people.

Ciao !

the cake (aka ashy heller - an RS satsangi fundamentalist troll from south africa):

"tell me Catherine what do you do to free your mind from self deluded superstition and mind filled indoctrination?"

-- what makes you assume that her mind is not free, or has "self deluded superstition", or "indoctrination"??? she shows no indication of any of that. but you on the other hand, you are well known for being quite "deluded", for rigidly adhering to "superstition", and for being full of "indoctrination". so it appears once agin that you are merely projecting your own mental problems onto others. what benefits and wonders the RS guru-cult does for people like you!!! and you are not alone. most of the other RS guru-cult adherents who visit here show similar mental problems... so it clearly has something to do with the effects that believing and practicing the RS path has on people. and you are a prime example of the sickness that is common and typical of some (and possibly many) practicing RS satsangis. its just amazing how your meditation is making you be such a mentally balanced and loving person!!! but still its a good thing that there are not too many sick and demented RS satsangis like you. that wouldn't be very good now, would it??


"Seems that all these enlightened beings that come to websites such as these are the very most bound up fools thinking they've arrived at some clear sighted self illumined self righteous paradise."

-- who says that the people who came here are enlightened?? no one here claims to be enlighted. you say they are enlightened? well you are obviously not enlighted at all, so how would you ever know that others here are enlightened?? i thought you just said above that the other people here are "deluded" and "bound up fools?? so it appears that you are now contradicting yourself. but then i guess we should expect lots of contradiction coming from a such well known delusional schizophrenic like yourself. i bet you forgot to take your meds today. yes, i believe so. well, that's too bad.


"Your understanding of who the guru is compared to who you are is so fundamentally flawed its simply not even remotely funny."

-- well then, WHO is "the guru" Ashy?? and also, WHO are YOU?? why don't you tell us all about who "the guru" is and who you are, instead of criticising other people that you have nmever met and don't know anything about?? why don't contribute something positive, some light, instead of cursing the darkness. oh i forgot, you haven't ever gained anything positoive from sant mat and RS that you can share here. i guess thats why you are such a miserable person. well that must be the reason. all that meditation and nothing to show for it?? don't you have anything good to say at all?? not even something positive about your guru?? nothing?? thats too bad. i guess doing RS meditation doesn't produce very much results. well, that's too bad.


"By the grace of universal evolutionary will we can but hope that such poor irresolute fools catch a wake up before the real sleep overtakes their vision less souls."

-- well, if it it all depends upon "the grace of universal evolutionary will", then its not anybody's fault now is it?? its certainly not the "poor irresolute fools" fault. and btw, have you caught a "wake up" lately?? i don't think that train comes anywhere near your neighborhood. i think there are too many "vision less souls" over in your neck of the woods. we don't allow any "vision less souls" or dogmatic guru-cultists around where i live, mainly because we'd blow em away with our shotguns before they could utter more than one wimpy "radha soami". we're awgful careful to keep them kinda varmits from making any nests around here. this is god's country, and we don't take kindly to any guru-cakes comin around here. no way jose. *grin*


Thanks Tara and tAo. tAo, is that icing I see on your teeth?!

LOL Cath !


THE RSSB CRISIS, A TIME FOR CHANGE, AND RENEWAL..A BLESSING IN DISGUISE?

Though understandably there appears to be some controversy about the aims of Gurinder Singh, or Babaji, and what I say here may throw some fuel on the fire. I should also stress that I still believe in the Faqir Chand type concept of the Real Inner Master as being the Higher Self, and that even an "imperfect" master can still act as a link to it with the aid of his "largely" genuine predeccessors. In other words, what I refer to as intelligent blind faith.

What is unfolding here is part of a Divine Play, and a test of faith for those devotees who come into the know about the claims made here about GS, and Religare. Infact, it might lead to a full blown crisis in which I believe RSSB should split up into smaller separate groups with transparent accounting, and a whole series of Satgurus who in part should be elected by advanced Satsangis via "corroborative" inner experience. This is something which Dayalbagh Satsang has done, and moreover, full legal background checks, and other kinds of character referencing should be carried out at the sametime. This will help to create confidence in who is outwardly a fit Personality to be in charge of particular satsang groups. So, in other words, the RSSB crisis could be a spur for change, and Gurinder Singh could ideally resign (which would be the honourable thing to do ..unless he were to come up with convincing counter-arguments not to do so), and set up plans similiar, or identical to the above. Ofcourse, this may all be just wishful thinking on my part!

Some of the following may be of interest as I feel I can speak more freely..

1. Sometime after Charan had died there was serious talk that there should be a small "run-way" for the Masters plane to land whenever he came to Haynes Park in England..At the time, my Satsangi friends found this amusing!

2. As some may know GS lived in Spain, and was involved in some manner or other with the import/export business. One story by an English teacher called "Robin" at the London Satsang claimed that he was involved in a commercial "mistake" but in spite of this a message was sent from the Dera which claimed that he was a Perfect Master, and hence could do no "wrong". This ofcourse occured when Charan was around. "Robin" wondered what sort of Power we were dealing with?

3. I remember once that I met a gay(!) Satsangi who claimed that he had met GS (before he was married it should be said ) at some governement building if I recall correctly. Apparently, there was a group of people in which he asked an offensive question, "Do English girls f---k well" The gay Satsangi retorted by saying "You are a rude littlef-----er!" If I remember correctly there were some English girls present, and ofcourse, they would have been offended.

Apart from this it seems that GS in his young days was a bit "wild". I recall one story in which it was claimed that Charan had just landed at an airport, and GS had music on full blast at the same time..presumably, out of respect, or rather "disrepect?" Ofcourse, one can rationalize all this as being like the controversial stories of Krishna. In other words, it would "validate" him as a Godman, or indeed, a Godman in the making from a traditional Indian point of view...

Ofcourse, the invalidation site on RSSB has some interesting claims which may have some validity along with the Beas Secret History site. As they say there is no smoke without fire....

I may explain more but as far as I am concerned the Real Master lies within, and the present crisis should be seen as a POSITIVE OPPORTUNITY FOR CHANGE though this would be arguably resisted by the dera management, and ofcourse, by GS. I look upon all this as a Play of the Lord. Let us hope something good will come out of it.... It is all his Mauj (or Will)............................

I will for the time being contiue to attend the RSSB Satsang in Southall, England. Each time I go there by Gurus Grace (ie the Grace of ones Higher, or Real Self) I feel joy, and awareness of superconcious energies. So, clearly irrespective of whether GS is perfect, or not there is still a positive uplifting power (whose degree of contact depends on ones receptivity)...How can that be rationally explained away unless one takes into account somethng like a Faqir Chand explanation ??


Robert, you say -
"... even an ' imperfect ' master can still act as a link to it ( the higher self ) with the aid of his ' largely ' genuine predecessors ... "

Well, I think that the ' genuine predecessors ' would be kinda pissed-off with Gurinder and would preferably put all ' aid ' on hold !

I sense that you feel that there is a ' Bigger God ' there - cool stuff from an RS believer. Thanks for the stories, I have many to share, some other time... :)

Robert writes:

"I still believe in the Faqir Chand type concept of the Real Inner Master as being the Higher Self, and that even an "imperfect" master can still act as a link to it with the aid of his "largely" genuine predeccessors."

-- what makes you think the predecessors are "largely genuine"? how you pr esume to know this? also, if there is a "higher self" like you speak of, then what need is there for "an imperfect master" (or any master) to "act as a link to it"?? what you are proposing is a duality. if you are saying the the so-called "higher self" within each person is really the guru, and the guru is really the higher self within each person, then what is the point of following an "imperfect master" who is just another ordinary human being?? so your theory doesn't makes good sense. if one's "higher self" is the real guru within, then there is no need for any other (outer) guru. so i have to disagree with your theory. its a contradiction. you need to decide which it is... either the real guru is your higher self (your real self), or, the guru is some other individual.

i persoanlly don't believe in the idea of outer gurus (masters). and if there is a true self or higher self, then that is all-sufficient. no "link" or outer guru/master is needed. so this outer guru/master thing is an illusion, a myth, and it is a myth that supposed gurus tend to capitalize on and use to attract and manipulate disciples. its a sham. and thats basically what you are suggesting. you are suggesting that gurus (either perfect or imperfect) are somehow needed as links to one's so-called "higher self". i think thats nonsense, and for the reasons that i indicated.

"In other words, what I refer to as intelligent blind faith."

-- i don't consider "blind faith" to be "intelligent" at all. in fact, i think its extremely lame and unintelligent. but some people are insecure and want someone or something to believe in. thats a weakness imo. its also an illusion because they think someone else is superior and possesses something that they don't. but that is not true. no one has any special divine powers. thats a myth. some people are wiser than others, but they are still ordinary people. the "perfect master" thing is a fraud.

"What is unfolding here is part of a Divine Play, and a test of faith for those devotees who come into the know about the claims made here about GS, and Religare."

-- i disagree with that too. i think its a test of their reason and rationality and willingness to look at facts and not hide their heads in illusions and denial... not a "test of faith". they don't need faith, they need reason and reality.

"Infact, it might lead to a full blown crisis in which I believe RSSB should split up into smaller separate groups with transparent accounting, and a whole series of Satgurus who in part should be elected by advanced Satsangis via "corroborative" inner experience."

-- that would be absolutely ridiculous, and it would not improve anything. people don't need any more gurus. thats the old paradigm. that era is actually over and done and is on its way out. all that is being done away with as we shift into the new aeon. you'll see. all that guru crap is history. seriously. you are still stuck in the guru fantasy.

"full legal background checks, and other kinds of character referencing should be carried out at the sametime."

-- again, thats absurd. i encourage you to get into contact with that true "higher self" that you mention, and dispense with all this guru-cult nonsense. awaken into freedom from gurus and religion.


Just with all good fashion, the era of the gurus as gods or even guides, is over. I agree with tAo. There is just too much information available these days with which to weigh up perspectives.

Receptivity to the natural world, or to what the body is needing is rewarding- and gawd, could that be a Faqir Chand experience?

Rob, feeling good at satsang is simply to do with an hour of quietly sitting listening to something which you believe may be true. Your mind has stopped racing around and you are with kindred spirits- that's the rational explanation in the station. Sometimes particularly good moments are felt grinding away at the office (not even with the secretary), doing difficult work and solving a problem or two.


Investment bankers can also = thumbin da cookiejar! These are not the sort of people who can be seen as being credible themselves..especially in connection with financial crsis!!!

....And what about banks ability to create money out of thin air electronically through the process of so-called credit creation!!Hhmmmm...it can be seen as a sort of legalised global con-trick...


Apologies...the above post relates to someone claiming to be an email by an "investment banker" who may have "spilled the beans" so to speak...


I agree entirely that the old guru paradigm is old hat. I believe it is possible to achieve self-salvation, or rather Self-Salvation so to speak. The problem here is our own spiritual evolution, and whether the "right" Power within can be contacted, and help the stuggling soul to achieve the "highest goal" of "God-Realization."

...And yes, there is a "Bigger God", and indeed, a "Bigger Picture" gradually unfolding in this RSSB drama...

....And moreover, the experiences of "higher conciousness" at the Southall centre are not the same as worldly pleasures..It is something far more real than the imagination...This can only be experienced by the individual...

There is alot more to this RSSB controversy than meets the eye. In the future I beleive these things will be better understood with the development of Multi-Dimensional Science.
Our understanding of the psychic, and spiritual will become more objective, and scientific...

My other project may be of interest though it has nothing to do with the above matter...

http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics


This may be of interest

"Sometimes the Master seems to do things that some of us find inexplicable. Could you tell us why this should be?"

Shoti said,"That does happen. Sometimes he seems to act in a way that you think is entirely wrong and perhaps your opinion is shared by others and on occasions all the satsangis present think it wrong and say so. Then Maharaji explains and convinces them what had seemed wrong to them was really the only feasible solution because (as becomes apparent later) he could see the full implication of the whole problem and had foreseen, on another plane, what they could not possibly know". Then he made very memorable remark: "When we see flaws in a Master, it is because he is a mirror. When we look at him, we cannot, with our limited vision, comprehend his masterhood; all we see is a reflection of our incompleteness". (This makes me feel that it could be used as a very good yardstick of ones own progress, or rather, lack of porgress.)

In Search of the Way by Mrs.Wood, 2003 RSSB edition.p119-120...

In certain places of RSSB literature there are one, or more references claiming that the Master can be hypocritical, and it can be difficult to have faith in him if we were somehow closely connected to him physically ..

Remember the Guru is meant to equal God. Thus, he can do good...as well as bad even though our credibility in him in the latter respect may be largely, or totally destroyed during the process.....The individual alone can decide whether the Guru is truly divine, or otherwise..........

Robert, you have me confused !

You write - " The Guru is meant to equal God... "

So you do subscribe to the GIHF thing, right ? Can you imagine Fakir Chand pulling off a Religare during his time ? I cannot ! And no, a big no, the Master is not a mirror. He is a mirage that is conjured up by the hallucination of one's own imagination. Perceive him as the ' Shabd Incarnate ' and you'll see him that way, perceive him as an ordinary human being and you'll begin to see him like one of us - it is all in the mind. This ' mirror ' thing is mere story telling by RSSB via their cleverly crafted writings to make you feel like shit.

You write - " It can be difficult to have faith in him if we were somehow closely connected to him physically... "

Obviously ! Thats how you'll discover the ' real ' Gurinder - an impostor. He is a calculative, shrewd, stony-hearted, power hungry schmuck. Spend some time with him and the ' inner circle ' and you'll reach for the next muffin you'll find. Do you think that any of his core group members are interested in spirituality ? That would be a joke ! These clowns are busy stuffing their pockets with cash as they load up more for Gurinder on the Religare money-train.

Robert, you have me confused !

You write - " The Guru is meant to equal God... "

So you do subscribe to the GIHF thing, right ? Can you imagine Fakir Chand pulling off a Religare during his time ? I cannot ! And no, a big no, the Master is not a mirror. He is a mirage that is conjured up by the hallucination of one's own imagination. Perceive him as the ' Shabd Incarnate ' and you'll see him that way, perceive him as an ordinary human being and you'll begin to see him like one of us - it is all in the mind. This ' mirror ' thing is mere story telling by RSSB via their cleverly crafted writings to make you feel like shit.

You write - " It can be difficult to have faith in him if we were somehow closely connected to him physically... "

Obviously ! Thats how you'll discover the ' real ' Gurinder - an impostor. He is a calculative, shrewd, stony-hearted, power hungry schmuck. Spend some time with him and the ' inner circle ' and you'll reach for the next muffin you'll find. Do you think that any of his core group members are interested in spirituality ? That would be a joke ! These clowns are busy stuffing their pockets with cash as they load up more for Gurinder on the Religare money-train.

Robert writes:

"Sometimes the Master seems to do things that some of us find inexplicable. [...] Maharaji explains and convinces them [...] he could see the full implication of the whole problem and had foreseen, on another plane, what they could not possibly know."

-- thats bullshit. complete bullshit. its so obvious. so why are you posting this? do you really believe this?

"When we see flaws in a Master, it is because he is a mirror. When we look at him, we cannot, with our limited vision, comprehend his masterhood; all we see is a reflection of our incompleteness."

-- this is just more of the same kind of bullshit. saying that people cannot "comprehend his masterhood", and that "he is a mirror". this the same bullhit trick that so many other destructive cults and cult leaders (or gurus) have used to deceive and brainwash people into thinking that the leader or guru is godly and divine, or special and superior... and all the followers are inferior and blind. its absolute garbage. so why are you posting this kind of crap?

"Remember the Guru is meant to equal God."

-- thats what they want you to believe. and thats the problem.

"The individual alone can decide whether the Guru is truly divine, or otherwise"

-- look, the guru is no more "truly divine" than anybody. the guru is just an ordinary mortal human being like everyone else. that is the truth, not all this other garbage propaganda and cultic mind control. so why even post this kind of crap? we all know what RS teaches. so instead of repeating the same old dogma, lets talk more about what is actually real. in other words, no ffense, but i'm not sure why it is that you are posting this sort of stuff. it sounds like you want to believe it. but then you say you don't really. so i just don't know where you're at. you say you get a spiritual high when you go to an RS satsang. personally, i think that feeling is just your illusion. why? simply because its temporary and superficial. but... whatever floats your boat, i suppose.


Robert,
I agree with tAo above. You seem to be influenced by RS cult mind control, but at the same time I sense you could be open to different ideas.

One thing I notice in your comments is that you seem to think that any sort of show of human weakness, mistakes, poor judgement, etc. by the master or the RSSB organization is there as a test of the disciple, to assess his worthiness, purity, and spiritual advancement.

You seem to think that the Lord requires all this blind obedience before you can be accepted by Him...like jumping off a cliff if the master tells you to, or if you discover the master doing something unethical you should accept it as a test of faith or some kind of divinely motivated lesson.

Why is it that the mind of the faithful excuse unethical, hypocritical, inconsistent behavior as something originating for the good of the disciple from a higher region? Why is it rational to believe that?

Why does the Lord need to play such games? Why does He need to test you and find out if you are worthy? This sounds to me like a judgemental God caught up in duality of right and wrong and the pairs of opposites. It sounds like a God with a very human mind. It sounds like a God that hasn't transcended anything and is only merciful if you behave a certain way according to certain conceptual standards.

What if the master decides that all satsangis should wear royal blue pants, yellow shirts and red shoes? You say he wouldn't do that, but what if he did?

Tucson's second last paragraph gives an excellent perspective as to how some perceive god. First he creates imperfect humans and then he judges and tests them.

How insane and perverted is that?

THE SUBTLE HIGHER ENERGIES OF SATSANG...


Irrespective whether GS is genuine, or not it still leaves something unanswered. How is it that depending on your receptivity one can become aware of this higher subtle energy of conciousness when one attends Satsang? I am sure Brian, and others here must have experienced varying degrees of it. It is clearly something more real, and wonderful than our imagination can conceive. This energy may well come from a number of advanced devotees in full, or in part because of their devotion to meditation, and the Real Inner Master (ie. Higher Self, or Personal God as opposed to the physical form, and personality of the Guru which can act as a link to the True Master). This devotion may well radiate itself as higher conciousness/love into the surrounding environment of the Satsang. In the case of the Southall Satang buildings it seems to also radiate beyond its parameters. As one gets close to these structures (especially the main opening of the Satsang in which people "flood" in,and out) the energies become very intense, and uplifting.It has an extraordinary calming effect on the mind.

As someone pointed out this energy when one returns home does not necessarily last for long. However, with more visits to Satsang it can be present at home to some extent, and can manifest itself as a slowly developing inner bliss via meditation...though the latter may be unconnected in some way....

How does all this relate to the present "allegations" about RSSB...and indeed, does it really matter if people are experiencing such varying degrees of this bliss at Satsang...? How does it connect up..if at all to our limited understanding, and vision?

For what its worth my psi senses seem to indicate that the energies do indeed come partly from advanced Satsangies collectively, and ALSO very gently descends from the ceiling suggesting a secondary source. What is the source of this secondary source..so to speak!! Remember we are dealing with something beyond the imagination
...

Robert,

The energies of love and devotion that are felt at satsang are very uplifting and reading what you have just said has made me quite nostalgic.

With regard to the allegations that are happening, my thoughts are that as history has shown, when the last guru in a line dies and a successor is not nominated that is when that particular path becomes a religion.

With all the RS study centers being built in different cities around the world and also the growth of the organizational side, perhaps this is an indication that RSSB is already moving in that direction. Probably quite a few of the older satsangis are thinking this as well.


Two fuzzy black, and white photos of Gugu, or baby Gurinder Singh with Charan Singh. It is sad to see how things have worked out for the latter so far especially in connection with Religare...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2439576764&ref=ts#!/group.php?gid=2439576764&v=photos


Ref. Radha Soami Mat Spiritual FRIENDS Facebook


I would like to point out that the sort of energy one experiences in RS Satsang, and other eastern groups surpasses anything experienced in any church,temple, mosque, or other similiar religion. Such places are "DEAD" no matter how well-meaning their followers may...

As for Gurus per se one I would recommend is Sant Harjit Singh who enjoys a very good reputation. He does not have huge amounts of property, and I believe he still works for his living. He is extremely approachable.

I have often had long conversations with him on the phone...and you can also feel his energy coming through at the same time!! He is a very good channel of higher spiritual energy, and ofcourse does not charge a penny.

Harjit comes from a line of teachers going back to Shiv Dayal Singh. Faqir Chand was also his master. Initiation is actually spontaneous for the real seeker, and can at any time.... There is no form filling, or any other bureaucratic stuff like that. If you listen to some of his music extracts several times you should be able to pick up his energy if one is sensitive, and if one focuses love on him even though he is not physically present..

http://www.babafaqirchand.com/

Robert,

here are some of the statements that you made, and then my reactions to them.

you said:

"How is it that depending on your receptivity one can become aware of this higher subtle energy of conciousness when one attends Satsang?"

-- but you are assuming that there is a "higher subtle energy of conciousness", and that exists in a particular location, the venue where the satsang is held. i find that to be an odd and rather unlikely supposition. i do think that it is your belief and perhaps the belief of other people as well. however, beliefs are well known to create impressions and experiences. but this phenomena is largely the result of indivividual and collective imagination, and does not have any actual reality. in other words, if you believe that satsangs have unique spiritual energy, then thats the experience that you tend to manifest. but it is really just imagination and illusory, although you may seem to feel uplifted by it. the reason that i say that it is not real, is because it is temporary and isolated. also, if you have a whole group of people assembled in one location, in a room, and they all believe this same sort of thing, then it tends to create that illusionary atmosphere. and in my opinion, thats all it really is. but i suspeact that you don't want to recognize that. i can tell it by the over-all drift of your comments. also, i know how this works, because i used to feel the same way that you do - that satsnags and temples and holy places have an atmospher of spiritual energy. but i eventually found that to be nothing more than a projection of my own belief and mind, and not something that has any real existence.

"I am sure Brian, and others here must have experienced varying degrees of it."

-- like i said, i used to think that was true, and so it seemed and felt to exist, but it was only my own 'spiritual' consciousness, and not any independent spiritual energy present in some outside location or satsang. and contrary to your belief that it is unique to RS satsangs, i have experienced (or projected) that sensation (or illusion) in circumstances other than RS. such as in some hindu holy dhams (temples, ashrams, and holy places), some tibetan monasteries, around some sufi saints, at the abodes of a few sages and yogis... at various places around India and Nepal and Sri Lanka. so it is not at all unique to only RS satsangs. and it is not a feeling of any superior spiritual energy with RS either. and as i said, its an illusion in the mind. in other words, beauty (or spirituality) is in the eye (or the mind) of the beholder.

"It is clearly something more real, and wonderful than our imagination can conceive."

-- i do not agree with that at all. it is merely your wishful imagination. perhaps someday you will realize that. that its all in YOU. its not 'out there'.

"This energy may well come from a number of advanced devotees in full, or in part because of their devotion to meditation, and the Real Inner Master (ie. Higher Self, or Personal God"

-- again, imo, this is an illsuion. first, you are assuming there are "a number of advanced devotees". then you are assuming that their devotion and meditation and belief in a personal god is emanating 'higher spiritual energy'. these are all completely unfounded and unsubstantiated assumptions and beliefs. and when i was involved in RS (back in Charan's day), i didn't see ANY "advanced devotees". most RS satsangis that i encountered (several hundred) were struggling with their meditation and other rather mundane stuff in their personal lives. but i have known a few truly advanced sadhakas, yogis and sages (outside of RS), and they were far beyond and more "advanced" than any of the RS satsangis. so on that basis, i completely disagree with you that there are any advanced RS satsangis. if the truth be told, i think you would find that most RS satsangis have not achieved anything at all from their years of RS meditation and guru devotion and seva. and i think that Brian suspects this as well. so i think you are basically caught in a wishful fantasy.

"This devotion may well radiate itself as higher conciousness/love into the surrounding environment of the Satsang."

-- i already explained above why i do not think this is true. however, devotion does tend to create an kind of atmosphere... its just not the true "higher consciousness" that you believe it to be. far from it.

"In the case of the Southall Satang buildings it seems to also radiate beyond its parameters."

-- thats an illusion, imo. its a trype of spiritual materialism. think that supposed 'spiritual energy' pervades material space and objects. its a total myth. there is no evidence to support this. its just a belief in the metaphysical or the supernatural. its nonsense imo. so i can see where you are at. you are an RS satsang & guru-cult believer. thats ok, but it doesn't mean that what you believe is real.

"As one gets close to these structures (especially the main opening of the Satsang in which people "flood" in,and out) the energies become very intense, and uplifting."

-- like i said, this phenomena happens around all sorts of groups of people (not just RS). like a big rock concert for instance. or in a place where there is religious fervor. but it is not 'higher spiritual energy'. thats an illusion.

"It has an extraordinary calming effect on the mind."

-- thats just YOUR OWN belief that is causing that.

"As someone pointed out this energy when one returns home does not necessarily last for long. However, with more visits to Satsang it can be present at home to some extent, and can manifest itself as a slowly developing inner bliss via meditation."

-- again, this is an illusion. the 'after-glow' is all in you. its not anywhere else, or from anything else. its all your own mind. so wake up from this fantasy.

How does all this relate to the present "allegations" about RSSB...and indeed, does it really matter if people are experiencing such varying degrees of this bliss at Satsang?"

"For what its worth my psi senses seem to indicate that the energies do indeed come partly from advanced Satsangies collectively, and ALSO very gently descends from the ceiling suggesting a secondary source."

-- i am sorry dude, but i have to say that you are in pseudo-spiritual la-la-land. there is absolutely nothing coming from the ceiling or another "secondary source". there are no advanced satsangis. and none of these people are experiencing real bliss. so i can really see how you think now. you are not any different than millions of other very deluded and irrational people who believe all sorts of supernatural and superstitious nonsense. i hope that you wake up soon out of your dream. reality is much more fulfilling than any mystical illusion or fantasy.

"What is the source of this secondary source..so to speak!! Remember we are dealing with something beyond the imagination"

-- "something beyond"?? no, thats not what it is. YOU are dealing with something that is WITHIN YOUR imagination.

"the sort of energy one experiences in RS Satsang, and other eastern groups surpasses anything experienced in any church,temple, mosque, or other similiar religion."

-- i addressed this above. i totally disagree with you. and i have much experience to back up my position. i have seen the same sort of illusion going on with christians and christian churches, moslems and islamic mosques, new-agers & their 'sacred sites', and so on. so your premise i that only eastern spirituality has this going on, is incorrect.

"Such places are "DEAD" no matter how well-meaning their followers"

-- listen dude, ALL supposed spiritual or 'holy' places are "DEAD", including RS satsangs and RS satsang venues. even the RS doctrine says that. Sar Bachan perhaps?? and btw, i just wonder how many satsangis at your Southhall satsang are of Indian origin?? probably alot. that makes for an east indian spiritual/religious atmosphere. catch my drift?

"As for Gurus per se one I would recommend is Sant Harjit Singh who enjoys a very good reputation. He does not have huge amounts of property, and I believe he still works for his living. He is extremely approachable."

-- well, i am not looking for any more sant mat gurus, or gurus period. so i really couldn't care less. its basically the same trip even if your guy isn't rich and powerful and hs lots of disciples. i am just not in the guru seeking business. in fact, i would advise people to avoid all that. so you are promioting something that i happen to take a rather dim view of. people these days don't need to get hung up in any more gurus. they need to become self-empowered and just accept and be themselves. they don't need to follow some pseudo-guru who is no more spiritual than they are. so i don't dig what you are promoting. its not liberating, its misleading. no guru (or sant mat master) can offer more than that which innate, that which is always already the case. all these supposed gurus and sants are fakes, shams, and con-artists. its the business of selling spirituality. and i don't give a hot what he does for a living. if he props himself up as being a master or a "Sant", then he is playing a role and misleading people. and you are a sucker if you believe that you need a master. my hope is that you can break out of that myth, and be free of it.

"I have often had long conversations with him on the phone...and you can also feel his energy coming through at the same time!! He is a very good channel of higher spiritual energy, and ofcourse does not charge a penny."

-- its irrelevant that he doesn't charge money. he is still settinhimself up as a "sant", a master. he has disciples. so he is misleading those people. he is not freeing them. he himself is not free. otherwise he would not be doing that. its as simple as that. so you are just a seeker and a believer who is gullible and fooled by the myth. you have not awakened to thatr which is always already the case... hence you still seek and follow after pseudo masters and gurus.

"Harjit comes from a line of teachers going back to Shiv Dayal Singh."

-- so what? are you kidding? as if that really means anything? it doesn't. who was shiv dayal singh anyway? well, he was basically a nut and a misfit and a wannbee guru who (supposedly) locked himself up in a dark closet and didn't come out for 17 years. thats not admirable or mentally balanced. then there was all the strange politics etc. so the guy is certainly not someone that i regard as sane or wise or saintly.

"Faqir Chand was also his master."

-- faqir chand was also a goofy character for most of his life. he played the guru game. only at the end did he begin to admit honestly that sant mat was somehat full of shit. but he vacillated too. so he is no great inspiration either. all of these sant mat gurus are more or less frauds.

"Initiation is actually spontaneous for the real seeker, and can at any time.... There is no form filling, or any other bureaucratic stuff like that."

-- well, i do agree with that at least. but being a "seeker" (or a disciple) is a dead end. reality is that which is always already the case.

Good comment tAo. I especially agree with "they need to become self-empowered and just accept and be themselves".

After being enmeshed in guru type worship there has to be a kind of "self awakening".

It may take some time for this new perspective to take hold... speaking from experience here :)

Jen, just remember how you were before you knew anything about gurus, back when you were younger. you were just fine being yourself. you didn't even think about it. you didn't need spirituality, salvation, mysticism, or belief. you were full of life and fully present in the moment.

but then eventually you lost that presence and reality when you got fooled into thinking and believing that you needed a spiritual master (a guru) and that you needed to escape from this world into some other inner realm.

but you didn't really lose yourself or lose your true reality. you can never really lose it. reality is that which is always already the case. you simply got tricked into the duality of thinking that you need spirituality and mysticism. so just realize that that was an illusion. because the real is that which is always already the case.


I was amused by the comment that the subtle energy experiences of Satsang are products of the imagination. The question is what is IMAGINATION apart from the obvious verbal definition....

What I am saying is that though science has made great strides in brain research the fact remains that mental imagery such as those in visions, and concious phenomena such as feelings, and will-power are clearly not the same as neuron nerves firing in the brain,and elsewhere in the body proper. To put it simply, the mental imagery, and indeed, the supertactile experiences of an "extraordinary nature" (ie. the Satsang energies)are largely if not wholly inexplicable, and seem to be experienced by more than one person (ie. a collective delusion??)..Now, since we cannot FULLY explain scientifically the actual mechanics of the imagination itself (apart from "unscientific" semantic games!!) as being some kind of neural brain activity it is somewhat premature if not obtuse to suggest with any authority that these higher energies experiences are purely self-created delusions...It is essentially an open question. You have your opinion, and I have mine....

I should point out that I have never ever taken drugs....but even if I had you cannot explain away one unknown(ie. imagination) with another unknown (ie.the Satsang energies)......

It would be nice to ask Brian Hines himself whether he experienced any kind of positive "atmosphere" with his long experience of RSSB?

There is a wonderful calming energy in R.S. satsang if you are a believing or an aspiring satsangi. I carefully consider it to be caused by a group mixture of faith, hope, masocism and ambition threaded with the habit of sitting quietly in meditation.

If you are not a satsangi, then it can be peaceful but nauseating.

So the probability is high that the feeling is what one believes in the safety of ones own type of crowd.


Depending on your senstivity it does not just come from the people at Satsang but also manifests itself as a highly subtle energy gently descending from the ceiling.Sometimes, a bright highly subtle glow is detected from some devotees along with rays of white ethereal light. Yet, I cannot prove it in any objective sense...

Robert, I agree with Catherine: different people experience different things in satsang with the guru. I've had direct experience of this myself.

For example, my non-initiated wife felt nothing in the presence of Gurinder Singh. Once, in a non-satsang meeting, she was ushered to the front row which brought her as close as possible to the guru. She felt nothing special from him.

I've been in satsangs with the guru where some people were crying tears of devotion and others were unmoved.

Robert, are you old enough to remember when the Beatles first came to this country? Girls were fainting all over the place. Other people simply enjoyed a concert. Fervent emotion/devotion, of any sort, produces strong effects in the brain.

It makes sense, as I've been blogging about recently, to make an inference to the best explanation. Since the devoted feeling you speak of is mostly limited to people who already consider the guru to be "special," and there is no demonstrable evidence of anything divine other than in the minds of the devotees, the best explanation is religious fervor.

Robert writes:

"the fact remains that mental imagery such as those in visions, and concious phenomena such as feelings, and will-power are clearly not the same as neuron nerves firing in the brain'

-- well how do you know that it is not? you don't know that. you just believe that. you seem to repeatedly mistake your personal beliefs as being facts. neuro-science would disagree with your assertion. because visions, feelings, and will-power all apparently do originate and are dependent upon the brain and so-called "neuron nerves". you are just not well informed. and you quite obviously believe in supernatural explanations for such things. that's magical thinking. and so i happen to find YOUR mentality 'amusing'.

"the mental imagery, and indeed, the supertactile experiences of an "extraordinary nature" (ie. the Satsang energies)are largely if not wholly inexplicable"

-- not true. the brain can and does produce all sorts of various sensations. and there is really nothing "extraordinary" or "inexplicable" about that. you seem to want to make this all seem mystical and spiritual and extraordinary. its not. you are being deceived by your imagination and your tendency to resort to supernatural explantions.

"and seem to be experienced by more than one person (ie. a collective delusion??)"

-- yes, collective delusions do happen, especially if the people involved all have the same beliefs and magical thinking. and i see that is quite evident in your comments. you tend to entertain a significant degree of magical thinking. magical thinking tends towards the irrational and illogical. hence your belief in the supernatural. go look up the definition of "magical thinking" and see how your views compare to that. and you are not the only one. in general, almost all satsangis already had magical thinking, or they have bought into magical thinking when they got into sant mat and the RS guru-cult. from your beliefs as evidenced in your statements, i observe that you have a considerable degree of magical thinking.

"we cannot FULLY explain scientifically the actual mechanics of the imagination itself [...] as being some kind of neural brain activity it is somewhat premature if not obtuse to suggest with any authority that these higher energies experiences are purely self-created delusions"

-- regardless of the question of how imagination works, your explanation about the nature of your supposed perceptions of 'higher energies' coming from the ceiling etc etc, is clearly magical thinking.

"You have your opinion, and I have mine."

-- my opinions are based only on known and accepted facts. your opinions are based on a belief in supernatual causes and magical thinking. thats the difference. you are clearly a believer in RS mysticism and the supernatual. i am not. i don't have any need for what i consider to be the myth of mysticism and belief in the supernatural.

"I should point out that I have never ever taken drugs....but even if I had you cannot explain away one unknown(ie. imagination) with another unknown (ie.the Satsang energies)"

-- wrong. imagination means imaginary. imaginary means that it has no demonstrable evidence, hence it is merely "imaginary" or delusionary. in your case, "imagination" simply pertains to your obvious magical thinking and belief in supernatural causes. and to anyone else who entertains belief in supernatural causes. you may think that perceive what you have described, i am not arguing or doubting that, it is your explanation of what you say you perceieve. that is the issue here. and i say YOUR EXPLANATION of the phenomena that you claim you perceive during and around RS satsangs... that is magical thinking.

and it is also quite telling that people who are not believers in the mysticism and theology and cosmology of sant mat and RS, they do not perceive any "extraordinary" or "higher" energies going on there.

it is a well known fact that belief has a tendency create a corresonding experience or perception.

"It would be nice to ask Brian Hines himself whether he experienced any kind of positive "atmosphere" with his long experience of RSSB?"

-- i am sure he will give you his honest reponse. for myself, also having 30 years of experience, i can say that the atmosphere at RS satsangs is not much different than being at the satsangs of other meditation paths.... generally a quiet and peaceful atmosphere with people being in a reverent mood. when people gather together who all believe and practice the same meditaion and have the same guru (or line of gurus), then what you get is a seemingly 'spiritual' atmosphere. but thats all it is. and some christians have virtually the same type of experience as you claim to have. also, i have also known sufis who do experience the same atmosphere and the same supposed subtle or divine or "higher energies", and feelings of transcendental spiritual illumination.

but it is my conclusion that this phenomena is all just self-generated. i don't deny that some people experience it... its just your explanation of what is the nature, origin, and cause of it, is what i disagree with.

your explanation of the nature, the origin, and the cause of the "higher energies" you claim to perceieve at RS satsangs, is magical thinking due to your belief in RS mysticism and the supernatural. and, you may possibly even have had some magical thinking before you ever got into RS.

geez for folk to propound with such supposed clarity and certainty on the fakery of RS gurus and the suckers that follow them - despite also having sought out sages and wise men from tibet to sri lanka.

maybe you suckers are more confused than anyone else. you dont know your metaphysicals from your fundaments any more.

most of you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers. thats the truth of the matter, call me guru georgey ji.

what was quite interesting was Brian's reference to the Beatles and the almost intangible hold they had over certain of their acolytes. it does raise a more general question of the human psyche's apparent yearning for charasmatic leaders, who are transformed by minds from men to demi-gods - not just rock groups, cult leaders and political leaders too.

George wrote: "most of you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers."

--As far as I am concerned you are correct. I was a sucker to buy into RS. Maybe other appropriate words would be gullible, stupid, or naive'. But that does not necessarily invalidate my views about RS now. I'm not sure what your point is in saying that. Do you mean to imply that we former satsangis are still clueless because we bought into RS decades ago...once a fool, always a fool?

Robert wrote: "... a bright highly subtle glow is detected from some devotees along with rays of white ethereal light..."

--I know what you are referring to and I have seen this frequently for many years. It is no big deal. All it takes is a little concentration and focus and you will begin to pick up the pranic, vibratory energy emitted from living beings (people, dogs, trees, aardvarks) and even some supposedly inanimate objects.

I first began to notice this in my early satsang days even before I was initiated. I would be so focused on the satsang giver that I would begin to see this halo or glow around them. Some people have more of this vital energy than others. For most people it extends out a few inches to a couple of feet. Some people fill the room with their energy, but I haven't noticed that this means they are any more "spiritual" than anyone else. They are just powerful in their persona, focused in a task, strong in their egos or talents. Like celebrities, and that sort of person.

George, almost everyone is "addicted" to something. And often it is recognized that this thing which was believed to be so true and wonderful, isn't.

A large proportion of marriages end in divorce. Many people end up dissatisfied with the car they bought. Careers often are changed because they don't appeal anymore.

Religious beliefs/attractions are no different. Life is change, growth, learning. We try something, see what it is like, and then decide whether to keep on with it, or try something else.

quoting George:

"for folk to propound with such supposed clarity and certainty on the fakery of RS gurus and the suckers that follow them - despite also having sought out sages and wise men from tibet to sri lanka." quoting George.

-- not all paths are the same, and not all gurus are wise sages. and more importantly, i wasn't criticising RS per se, i was addressing Robert's perceptions, explanations, and beliefs. in your rush to be flippant, you seem to have missed that. so i don't think you have any idea about what you are criticising. also fyi, i didn't 'seek out' sages and wise men. but i did encounter some sadhus and yogis who were sagely and wise.

"maybe you suckers are more confused than anyone else. you dont know your metaphysicals from your fundaments any more."

-- i'd say that you are the one who appears to be confused, and you have an attitude.

"most of you been signed up to RS for decades"

-- you are wrong. i have not "been signed up to RS". i never "signed up" to RS. i am not "signed up" to anything. so in my case, you are incorrect. fyi, i haven't had any involvement or participation with RS or its beliefs and practices for over 20 years. the last time i had any sort of proximity to RS, was in the spring of 1990. i haven't had anything whatsoever to do with RS since then. and other folks involvements are likely different than mine. so not everyone is the same here George. people's involvements with RS vary. so lumping everyone together is incorrect.

"so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers."

-- you don't know that either. you don't know how much i or anyone was "suckerd"... unless they tell you. and i have already said many times that i was never any sort of firm believer in RS. i got initiated into RS only because i wanted to check it out. i didn't buy into it, and i wasn't "suckered" into it, like you are suggesting. i was never a believer. i merely gave the meditation a 'test drive' for awhile. i wasn't into all the beliefs or the cult aspect of it. other folks im sure were different about it. so again, stop lumping everyone together.

as Brian so rightly said: "Life is change, growth, learning. We try something, see what it is like, and then decide whether to keep on with it, or try something else."

"thats the truth of the matter, call me guru georgey ji."

-- no that is NOT "the truth of the matter". your comment is far away from the truth. and you are obviously belittling critics and skeptics, and making blanket personal judgements by calling anyone who has ever even minimally checked out RS as being "suckers". thats pretty darn lame, if you ask me.

and frankly, i am a bit weary of that kind of attitude and personal insinuations thaty have no basis in fact. its a waste of my time responding to this sort of thing.

so it think i'm gonna bow out of here for awhile. i will leave you to your denigrating the skeptics and former RS initiates. you don't seem to want to engage in reasonable discussion and debate (outside of the topic of science).

i simply offered my well considered thoughts, reasonings, and conclusions about what i observe as Robert's magical thinking as it relates to his theories about "higher energies" at his RS satsang. and i pretty much said what i wanted to say about that in a fairly polite manner.

but you are on a whole other trip george. one which clearly borders on personal ridicule and denigration. i have quit doing that sort of thing some time ago. you haven't.

however, i don't have time to waste responding to those kind of comments. so, the only way for me to go... is away. therefore...

adios amigos. keep it real.

tAo, I would like to say that most of your comments lately, especially to Robert, have been right on the mark and insightful, imo.


Ofcourse, people experiences different "things" at Satsang. Some may experience nothing at all.However, I think we could posit the claim that many of them have similiar "devotional energy experiences". But depending on ones level of receptivity the experience is more pronounced than in others.

There is something I should add here. I was initiated by Harjit Singh via spontaneous initiation in 2007 which involved instant contact with higher energies of conciousness. I may cut, and paste my experiences here including an almost identical happening with Dr.Sharma in 1990. The point here is that both teachers came from the same line of gurus (ie. the Faqir Chand one). So what? Well, I have met many gurus, and yes, I did not feel much if anything from them at all save for the two mentioned here....This might suggest an objective dynamic at work because it could be assumed that both Harjit, and Sharma came from the same "highest" plane of existence,and for some reason, or other I was somehow easily connected to them so to speak...

Moreover, due to Harjit, and the awakening he gave to me I found when I returned to RSSB this year that the Satsang energies were more pronounced than ever before when I used to regularly attend them in the 1980s, and the early 1990s.

I think my evolving project of Multi-Dimensional Science will through the process of time help to clarify many things. For more info just press on my name....

I have decided to cut, and paste my experiences...

Meeting Dr Sharma.

Back in summer 1990 I met up with Dr Sharma also referred to as Manav Dayal a
teacher of "Shabd Yoga" in the Faqir Chand tradition. I came across him via a
contact who claimed that it might be best to meet him at Heathrow Airport which
was not far from where I lived at the time (ie Slough). This I did, and went to
the correct arrival point for passengers. I had a sign with his name on it. The
only pic I had of him was as a younger man, and it was not a particularly good
reproduction. Anyway, I waited awhile as the passengers left the plane, and then
I saw an Asian go towards a portly elderly man from the crowd of onlookers. He
put a garland around the new arrival to Britain. This I knew to be a traditional
gesture of respect to someone of importance, and I rightly guessed that it was
Dr. Sharma being honoured. The Asian devotee though seemed taken aback by
this....

Anyway, I talked briefly to Dr. Sharma, and for whatever reasons he mentioned
something about psychic odours. Personally, I found this an odd subject compared
with the high brow thinking of "Shabd Yoga", and Sant Mat. Indeed, I have to
confess that I found Sharma to be somehow eccentric in manner.

After that, I drove down to Hammersmith, London to a certain address to meet him
again for an interview I was doing for the magazine Yoga and Healing Dr. Sharma
was staying with some devotees, and I hardly got any questions out as he seemed
to be intent in giving a long rambling intellectual discourse on Hindu
mysticism. This was recorded ofcourse but unfortunately the tape was later lost.

Anyway, he referred to Sant Mat as Sat Mat ,or the Path of Truth, and regarded
Beas Satsang as ".....being like an empire." He may well have got these two
points from his own master Faqir Chand, and simply repeated them to me. He also
gave the old traditional interpretation of the word Radha, and reversed it by
repeating it as "Dhara, Dhara, Dhara,"..... .meaning spiritual current! At some
point during the interview (or should I say discourse from Dr Sharma!) I thought
I heard him say the following... ..."I do know not who is saying this. Some
current is flowing through me.." or words to that effect. Again, I must stress
the word "thought" of him saying this as I do not fully recall whether this
actually appeared on the tape, or not! Maybe a trick of the mind........

After all this, I had an informal chat with him. At one point, he left the room,
and thereupon re-appeared, and said "I am your Satguru!" Later, we had a
wonderful vegetarian lunch.

When I left to return to Slough in my car I had an extraordinary experience. I
became aware of a power flowing through me. It was controlling me in the most
NATURAL, and SPONTANEOUS manner. There was no fear of any sort involved. It was
as if something truly wonderful had been re-discovered from ages past. This
energy was incredibly subtle in a way that is difficult to describe. It was a
super-tactile experience. No sounds, or lights, or anything similiar was had. It
was a PROCESS of AWAKENING from the dream-like creation of the physical
universe. Though I used the word "natural" just now in capitals it was somehow
more than "natural".

This experience went on for a long while. The following day after my encounter
with Dr. Sharma I rang him about it. He commented to his suprise "......that it
was happening already " (spontaneous initiation). However, I felt that this
subtle energy seemed to be trying to "control" me too much, and I managed to
break away from it. I would have loved the intensity of that experience to have
continued but the problem was that I did not really take Dr. Sharma very
seriously, and did not regard him as my real Satguru. Yet, as Jashan Vaswani
once informed me, and an audience that "THE REAL SATGURU IS WITHIN YOU" Oddly
enough, this was what Faqir Chand claimed...that the physical master only acts
as a catalyst for psycho-spiritual experiences. This was something I did not
appreciate, or fully knew about at the time.

Sadly, Dr. Sharma passed on several years ago, but the teachings continue
through various lines of "masters".

Postscript. I should also said that at the interview Dr Sharma claimed that the
Sound Om could be heard not just in the lower realm but also in the higher ones.
A Sant Mat purist might well interpret this as indicative that his "version" of
Shabd Yoga did not lead beyond the planes of Kal, and Maya. Morever, it is not
seen as the highest spiritual meditation, but seen as being one of many.
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MEETING HARJIT SINGH

In January 2007 I made contact with Sant Harjit Singh. He is one of the
recognized successors of Faqir Chand. Before actually visiting him in Southall I
viewed his website, and on occassions listened to his music, or rather extracts
of it to be more precise. It definitely carried a highly subtle energy, and
helped to create a devotional "atmosphere" in me (ie. a heightening of
conciousness) . What occured was a PROCESS largely identical to that experienced
after visiting Dr. Sharma back in 1990. This could be suggestive that both
teachers reached the same "highest", or "ultimate" level of superconciousness
usually indicative of "God-Realization" though ofcourse there are an infinity of
different planes. The key features of the PROCESS OF AWAKENING is as follows.

i) An awareness that ones own inner lower self was being slowly transmuted into
something else in the most NATURAL, and SPONTANEOUS manner. In other words, I
was "dying" to gradually be reborn into a higher state of being......

ii) An awareness of being surrounded by the unseen energies of higher
conciousness especially in the evening.

iii) An awareness at times of being "possessed" in the most NATURAL, and
SPONTANEOUS fashion by these extremely subtle "forces" without any sense of fear
at all. Yet, there was something akin to awe by the growing onset of these
experiences, and at times an overwhelming sense of gratitude. This was ones
feeble response to the awakening process.

iv) An ability to spontaneously control, and dissolve any improper thoughts
entering the mind.

v) A greater ability as never before to actually calm the mind without any
mental chatter . In other words, I often became one-pointed with the repetition
of the Five Holy Names in a wonderfully NATURAL way. I suspect the unseen
energies were stilling my mind oftentimes to perform "real" meditation.

The above is all GRACE without which any kind of spiritual practice is virtually
impossible. Infact, I am coming to the conclusion that a true Master of any
degree should be able to successfully transmit such experienes irrespective of
the evolution of the disciple. However, I suspect that it depends on ones
sincerity for it to happen rather upon the amount of purity an individual soul
may, or may not have.

Anyway, I met Sant Harjit Singh at his Southall home. Just before that, and
earlier on at home in Slough I was acutely aware of energies of higher
coniousness. When I arrived at Harjits home positive vibrations were virtually
palpable, and inspiring. As I entered the front room I shook hands with him. He
was dressed in orange, and wore a homemade turban if I recall correctly.

I explained I had some experiences before meeting him. I claimed that the higher
conciousness which was trying to "posses" me in the most SUBTLE, NATURAL, AND
SPONTANEOUS fashion was influening my behaviour for the good. Submission to it
was proving beneficial. I also mentioned being suddenly awoken in the bed when I
felt a transmission of energy shoot right though me. This caused my body to
jerk. Harjit claimed that this was do with the (spiritual) heart though I did
fully understand what he meant by this.. I also mentioned my contact with a
certain Sound though this may well have been a trick of the mind.

Though I asked only few questions Harjit two, or three times asked "Can I go
now?" as he was wanting to do some meditation upstairs. Admitedly, he did have
some doubt about the genuiness of my experiences. He also seemed to regard Dr.
Sharma, the chief successor of Faqir Chand a little questionable too. This was
evident in the way he spoke. Like many devotees of the latter Master the former
was not liked particularly. However, Sharma did visit Harjit Singh on a certain
occassion.

One thing that did clearly tanspire in the meeting was this. Harjit Singh
clearly revealed that there was no set sequence of planes as indicated in the
Radhaswami literature. Indeed, such things were merely mental projections
nothing more, nothing less.

What I did not fully appreciate at the time was the fact that though Harjit
Singh was billed as a master of surat shabd yoga he also taught other yogic type
systems. In other words, it was not treated as being the highest, and most
advanced form of meditation. Rather it was actually seen as one of many other
systems of spiritual evolution. This contradicts the Radhaswami Teachings as
presented notably by Shiv Dayal Singh.

Harjit Singh understandably wanted his exact address secret. The reason was that
he wanted to make sure that whoever visited him was "genuine" in their desire
for spiritual progress rather than someone who was merely interested in
intellectual "games".


...Also another thing, I recall Faqir Chand making the claim that unsrupulous gurus would ofcourse take advantage of disciples knowing that visions, and miracles connected with them would make them believe in them as being Divine. Such self-generated phenomena however does not imply that they are all "hallucinations" or decptions from the lower mind. Instead they could also come from the Higher Self, or our Personal God.
Similiarly, a devout Christian may have visions of Jesus. But these could possibly come from his, or her Higher Self depending ones karmas, and grace...But ofcourse, we know nothing about Christs real character, or indeed, whether he existed at all!!!!

now now grandmaster Tao, no need to get so serious.

i;m just pulling your leg, besides there's a bit of truth to what i say - do you not think its a bit hyprocritical calling others suckers for their beliefs if you've dabbled in the same esoteric ponds yourself, or is that not fair comment?

sorry for the flippancy, but i seem to picture you travelling thru tibet like mr mayugi...'ahh grasshopper you have much too learn'...or 'rearn' if expressed in a tibetan accent.

Robert - I'm quite willing to accept your personal experiences with Dr. Sharma and Harjit Singh. Good for you ! However, I'm assuming that both of them had just a handful of followers and that their ' spiritual groups ' were not mass movements like RSSB. I have come to believe that ' spirituality ' or whatever you want to call it, cannot be fodder-fed to millions. I've become skeptical of most guru-types, and I'm happy without a Guru.

I've had a few ' uplifting ' moments at RS Satsang. A couple of years ago, I was completely overwhelmed after one of Gurinder's discourses. ( I cannot really describe the feeling ) but I wept for a while, then a sort of ' bliss ' lingered on till late in the evening. Of course, I was an extremely insecure person back then and I felt like there was a void in my life that I needed to fill.

Also, I thought that the initiation ceremony was nothing special. I tried very hard to induce a top-of-world feeling, but I felt burdened with the commitment to meditate. I've never really had a love for desserts and I wasn't even a weekend drinker, but the stringent vows had me staring at brownies and ordering champagne breakfasts - only to return the champagne... :)

I think that conventional religion is more relaxed in many ways and RS Sant Mat is nothing but a whipped-up concoction of Hindu, Christian, Islamic and Sikh philosophies plus their own chapter on GIHF and Kal etc.
Actually, I find it all quite twisted !

I've had the good fortune to know and interact with several RSSB higher-ups. Speaking from my experience, there is one trait that binds them all - superiority. You can add arrogance and overbearing elitism to that ! Not one of them was ' enlightened ' and most of them behaved obnoxiously with the ' lower rankers ' and other non-satsangis. Don't you think that the ones closest to the Guru should be full of love and compassion ? ( Well, some will say that the Guru keeps the ' bad ' ones closest to him, but then again, that's exactly the kind of bullshit that RS is popular for. )

Lastly, in my opinion, there is something inherently wrong in worshipping someone who is as attached to the material world as we are, but preaches otherwise ! Gurinder is a superficial ascetic, IMO !

Brian - Ditto. My husband met Gurinder on several occasions but never felt a thing ! Besides, he was always weary of Gurinder's la-dee-da entourage and thought that most of them were total jerks.

George - I was quite a hypocrite when I was involved with RSSB. But hey, it feels great to be unshackled, or should I say, unchurched...

well george, here's how i look at it:

i was only responding to Robert's theories and beliefs about what he says that he perceives at RS satsang meetings. and i gave my own opinions and conclusions regarding that. thats all. i was not critiquing RS or calling Robert a "sucker" because he is involved in sant mat. i simply said that he is obviously a believer in sant mat. i don't have a problem with that. but you have tried to imply that i do. perhaps you were only joking, but you did not make that known. and saying that anyone who has ever got intitated or done sant mat meditation is somehow a "sucker", and any former intitate who criticises RS is a hypocrite, well thats not funny. its not a joke. why? because its not true. its personal ridicule and sarcastic misrepresentation. there are other far better things to joke about. i'm all for a litte humor, but that did not come across as humor at all.

also, as i have carefully explained, i was never an RS believer. lots of other RS initiates (satsangis) are very much hard-core RS believers, and very dogmatic. i was never that way. i simply received the initiation so that i could try out the meditation. thats all i ever did. in the process, around that time, i did go visit the RSSB colony in northern India a few times. but i was never into the RS cult. i always remained pretty much detached from it. i don't like cults, and never did. i have been involved with other spiritual teachers and teachings, but i was the same way with those as well. so i was not, and am not a hypocrite. on this blog i have criticised RS dogma and cultic believers. but i was never one of them. since i know quite alot about sant mat and RS, and i have experience in it, i feel that i am more than entitled to critique the RSSB, its teaching and doctrine, its gurus, and its followers. that doesn't make me another sucker or a hypocrite. so thats why i take offense when you try to assert that everyone who has had any involvement with sant mat is a "sucker". people can and do try out spiritual paths without being hard-core believers or "suckers". and i am one of those people. there are many other sant mat and RS satsangis who are very much dogmatic cult-minded believers, fundamentalists if you will. but not everyone is or was. i have tried to explain this before, about a year ago. but you seem to continue lumping together anyone who has ever done sant mat meditation, and call them all suckers. and, you implied that i am also a "sucker" and thus insinuate that i am a hypocrite, simply because i tried out RS meditation about 25 years ago. well thats just wrong.

so i think it would be very helpful, that if you don't agree with my thoughts, views and opinions, to simply address WHY you don't agree with them, instead of making false insinuations and ridicule about me persoanally. if you think that my opinions are incorrect, then explain why. don't just ridicule me for being a supposed hypocrite merely because you assume (albeit wrongly) that i am just another RS "sucker" too.

and btw, imo its not too cool to tell me "no need to get so serious", when you were the one who called anyone who ever got sant mat initiation and has tried out meditation, a "sucker". criticising mysticism and religious organizations is one thing, but personal stuff is another. so lets try to be fair to each other. (unless of course somebody is outright attacking and ranting and preaching a bunch of dogma)


tAo, I've been through almost all the RSSB archives here, thanks for reiterating your stand. On a separate note, I know an RS initiate who goes through this site on a regular basis - he does not blog - but has moved from being a cultist to someone who's more open minded now. The absence of ' inner experiences ' cannot help a thinking mind from questioning one's beliefs when you're surfing through the Church of the Churchless... :)


Tara,

I was interested in your reference to a RS elite so to speak.

When I went to the London Satsang in the 1980s, and early 90s I met William Pryor, and took an instant dislike towards him. I found him to be a cold obnoxious snob. He always mixed with the "elite" members of the Satsang, and avoided those who might be of a "lower social order" of one kind, or another. I would be very suprised if he has changed at all in spite of presumably doing meditation!!

Unfortunately, Pryor was the person who gave me, and others the Five Holy Names to repeat, and practice at initiation into RSSB.

Unsuprisingly, he has a blog which is ofcourse beautifully edited (as he is a stickler to grammar, spelling etc, and is, or was the editor of the Spiritual Link).He also makes mention of his ancestral connection with Charles Darwin, and also ofcourse his "privileged family background" of the British Upper Class! So, my claim that he "suffers" from cold obnoxious snobbishness is not totally unfounded..He also claims to be an entrepreneur...Maybe he has shares in Religare..who knows!!??

There is something else I should add. Back in the 1980s I contacted a phone in, and I talked about the RS Faith. Sometime later, I got a call from Pryor. He seemed dumbfounded that anyone (even me!) could publicly discuss RSSB on air (even in a free country!!??) Admitedly, I lost my rag with him, and put the phone down. But he continued to phone again, and again saying that I had no authority to talk about the subject. I did apologize to him several times but I got the distinct impression that this was clearly not enough....Fortunately, I got rid of him in the end.

<<< Robert, thanks for your story. Unfortunately, I cannot drop names here as the Indian RS social network will ostracize some of my friends if I do... >>>

Well, there is a man who's a part of the RS ' inner circle ' and has has become very busy with the affairs of Religare. I heard that Gurinder told him to meditate when he finds the time... ( ?? )

Having known this man for more than a decade, I can safely conclude that he's gone from being a jerk to a being a mighty jerk.


Two interesting vids..one of them is of the actor Martin Shaw who claims that an entity shepherds the soul after death. He does not refer to it as his Masters Radiant Form...or refer to it as his Higher Self manifesting as his Master which would correspond with Faqir Chands ideas...or what the Sufis sometimes called the Man of Light..the psychopomp of the "dead".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOI1hAbDuw

The other link is on Charan from David Lanes You Tube site. The last part of it deals with a test of faith....I include Lanes vid site..

http://www.youtube.com/user/neuralsurfer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOI1hAbDuw

I remember Mrs. Wood (former UK rep) saying that most people do not experience anything in Sant Mat. So, I presume Brian Hines, and many others fall into this category...At the time of writing she is 97, and still helps the Satsang at Haynes Park especially in a sectarial sense. I wonder what she would have thought about this controversy about GS. I suspect she would just ignore it!! She is an advanced disciple of Sawan Singh, and is highly respected...I have met her on a number of occassions.

Robert,

How did Mrs. Wood get to be an advanced disciple of Sawan Singh? What does this title or description mean? Thanks Roger

Grandmaster tAo

for the record I believe humour albeit in satirical form was needed.
If not for humour I would go insane listening to such hypocracy.
The word 'sucker' was not initiated by myself, you will see you used it in your response to Robert higher up.
I feel humour is very much needed cos the concistency is farcical and I feel it's best pointed out thru satire.

Robert, you asked if I ever experienced a positive "atmosphere" during my involvement with RSSB. Answer: of course.

In fact, I'm experiencing a positive atmosphere right now, typing at my laptop in my home. I experience such frequently, more of the time than not, because my basic nature is positivity (one of my wife's favorite sayings about me is, "you don't worry enough").

When people have strong emotional feelings toward someone, like a guru, this will create an emotionally charged atmosphere. I've felt this in the presence of the guru, in much (or exactly) the same way I felt the atmosphere in the auditorium where my wife and I saw Barack Obama when he came to our area in 2008.

George,

fyi, this is exactly what I had said:

"all these supposed gurus and sants are fakes, shams, and con-artists. its the business of selling spirituality. and i don't give a hot what he does for a living. if he props himself up as being a master or a "Sant", then he is playing a role and misleading people. and you are a sucker if you believe that you need a master. my hope is that you can break out of that myth, and be free of it."

Posted by: tAo | June 01, 2010 at 03:59 PM

--------------------------------------------

and fyi, right after that, this is what YOU said:

"geez for folk to propound with such supposed clarity and certainty on the fakery of RS gurus and the suckers that follow them - despite also having sought out sages and wise men from tibet to sri lanka.

maybe you suckers are more confused than anyone else. you dont know your metaphysicals from your fundaments any more.

most of you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers. thats the truth of the matter, call me guru georgey ji.

Posted by: George | June 02, 2010 at 03:05 PM

--------------------------------------------

so you are correct that i did initially use the word 'sucker'.

but the key word in my comment was "if".

i said: "you are a sucker IF you believe that you need a master."

i was not saying that Robert IS a sucker... i was only merely saying that "IF" he (or anyone for thet matter) BELIEVES that they "NEED" a master, then they are a sucker.

i don't know what Robert believes. thats for him to say. all i said (imo) was that, "you are a sucker if you believe that you need a master". "you" could refer to anyone. that is not saying that Robert IS definitely a sucker. thats only saying that IF Robert BELIEVES that he NEEDS a master, then imo, he is a "sucker". thats the difference.

you then came along and distorted the point of what i was saying, and you also implied that i am a hypocrite.

you misconstrued and misinterpreted the point that i was making. you also made a wrong assumpption and then deemed it hypocritical of me because i simply said that i feel that people who BELIEVE that they NEED a master are suckers.

you based that on YOUR assumption that i was once a "sucker" too. but that is not true at all, as i have explained in detail several times.

i was never a BELIEVER in the NEED for a master. but that was your premise, that i was once a "sucker" too. thats not true. i was never a "sucker" for RS. i simply checked out the RS meditation for awhile. i was never an RS guru and cult believer.

so therefore, you ARE correct that i did indeed "inititate" the word "sucker" (but not in the context that you have implied it and portrayed it).

but you are NOT correct when you say that my opinion (that those who BELIEVE that they NEED a master are suckers) makes me a HYPOCRITE. because for me to be a hypocrite, i would have had to have been a BELIEVER in the NEED for a master. but as i have said many times, i have never held that belief. i have never believed that a master is necessary, or that i needed a master. so i am not a hypocrite. and also i was not saying that Robert is a sucker. i was only saying that IF he BELIEVES that he NEEDS a master, then i consider such to be a sucker. and i do. thats the difference.

so your blanket assertion about me and others here, saying: "you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers", is flat wrong. i was never "signed up" to anything, and i was also never a believer (a sucker).


you can think what you like george, and you can keep on spinning and distorting this as much as you want, but you will not alter the truth...

the truth that not everyone who tries out a spiritual teaching or spiritual practice, is a believer or a sucker.


amen, i think we've covered who are the suckers, now after all that semantic tom foolery as i understand it one would be a 'sucker' IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india, but one is not a sucker IF one believes the teachings of sages and wise men from tibet.

Is this correct?

\i sincerely hope i have it right so that this willful and heinous distortion on my part can come to an end.

one man's sucker is another man's lollipop.

anyways i wish you no anguish, if you cannot see the inconsistency, then fair enough, i dont suppose it makes any difference in the greater scheme of things.

Take it easy Mr. Mayugi. Wax on Wax off.

george, you write:

"after all that semantic tom foolery"

-- there was no such "semantic tomfoolery" in my comments. i meant exactly what i said, but you have tried to alter and re-phrase what in said.

"as i understand it one would be a 'sucker' IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india"

-- no. thats NOT what i said. you are putting a different spin on this. i did NOT say "the teachings of RS gurus". i simply said: "IF he BELIEVES that he NEEDS a master". [or anyone who BELIEVES that they NEED a MASTER] i did NOT say (or imply): "IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india,"

so you are again attempting to change my words and meaning.

i had originally said (quote): "if you believe that you need a master". and i have not varied from that.

i did NOT say: "one would be a 'sucker' IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india". thats your erroneous interpretation and misrepresentation. it is not what i said.

you are playing games and trying to disort my words and the meaning of my words and statement.

"but one is not a sucker IF one believes the teachings of sages and wise men from tibet."

-- i never said (or implied) that either. i have never said that i "believes the teachings of sages and wise men".

simply practicing meditation, and believing "teachings of sages and wise men", is not the same thing.

and this is not sematics. this is simply a difference, on the one hand, between doing meditation, and on the other hand "belief in the need for a master'.

i never said anything about my "believing in the teachings of sages and wise men from tibet". so i would appreciate it if you would refrain from misrepresenting me.

"Is this correct?"

-- NO, it is NOT correct. see my comments above.

I googled "William Pryor satsangi" and found an excerpt (chapter 12: India - an oasis in the desert) from his book "The survival of the coolest: an addiction memoir" - an interesting part of his memoirs of when he was a drug addict and visited India and was initiated by Maharaj Ji in 1967 at the age of 22.

Jen, imo, pryor is an obvious goon for RS, a suppressor of free speech, an RS guru sycophant, and a hypocrite. so i don't think that he is "coolest" at all... regardless of what he did back in 1967.

and here is some fairly obvious evidence in support of that opinion:

http://dlane5.tripod.com/war.html


tAo, reading through the thread of the exchanges between William Pryor and David Lane in the link above, I came across Pryor's mention that "The content of this email have been approved by the Dera." He then wrote, in part:

"I was at the Dera last Christmas. Baba Ji spoke out about the Web with some force in December. He is concerned that RSSB should not be promoted, discussed or argued over on the Web. He talked about such activities trivialising the path and he does not want curiosity seekers turning up at satsang or the Dera - only real seekers. He says that people should only ask for initiation when they can resist it no longer."

Hmmmm. Obviously the will of the guru changed at some point after that. See:
http://www.rssb.org/

DID GURINDER WRITE THE ANONYMOUS ESSAYS ON THE OFFICIAL RADHASOAMI WEBSITE?

I have a strong suspicion that Gurinder wrote the essays on the official RSSB website, and possibly the rest of the site. For example,A Spiritual Perspective gives references to computer terminology, and it is well-known that he has an interest in the subject. Indeed, he apparently used the expression of the need to "deprogramme the mind" in one of his discourses. Moreover, the word religare is used in One Spiritual Family but ofcourse not as a corporation but as a term meaning binding back to God.

Another indication of the real authorship of the above is that it can only be translated into Spanish. What about German, French, Russian, et cetera? The answer would suggest to me that this was Gurinders idea because ofcourse he lived, and worked in Spain for a time, and he may well have spoken Spanish to a certain degree..

Reference is made on the official website that Gurinder is a teacher as opposed to a Sant Satguru, and the following biodata may be of interest....


Baba Gurinder Singh was born in 1954. His family is from a traditional agricultural community of Punjab, India. He was named by his predecessor as spiritual head of RSSB in 1990. Based in Spain before accepting this position, he is now retired and lives off his own income. In keeping with the policy for all volunteers, he does not receive any money or honorarium from the Society. As with his predecessors, he has dedicated his life to serving the Society and guiding its members on the spiritual path.

..It is interesting here to note the emphasis of Gurinder living on his own income..But ofcourse, in Sant Mat the Satguru can break any of these rules..because after he, or indeed, she is the manifestation of God in spite of the potential negative consequences it could have on the faith of Satsangis...



As for William Pryor I recall a long time ago that he referred to Davd C Lane as "just an intellectual..."

Brian wrote "obiviously the will of the Guru changed at some point"

...Maybe these are the mysterious ways of these kind and soft hearted Masters to take back the marked souls back to the Lord.

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