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April 11, 2010

Comments

Another amazing one:

"What if you were a teacher or professor before you got called to be SatGuru, and you loved it - it was your pride and joy. Wouldn't you be tempted to keep up with what was going on in the world of education? Wouldn't you jump back in there a little if you could? Or if you were a computer geek before being Guru, wouldn't you still want to keep up with the IT world and technology, if you got the chance to? But when Baba Ji does some business transactions, his old profession, and we are ready to burn him at the stake! We are ready to call him a fake, an infidel, and we want to shun him. This isn't very fair of us, is it? Take care."

--It is amazing how satsangis rationalize inconsistencies in the guru's behavior and what he teaches.

Here we are talking about a Sat Guru who supposedly has access to the highest spiritual region (Sach Khand), the bliss of which makes this world (Pinda) seem like a latrine in comparison. Sawan Singh made that analogy. Also, RSSB teachings say unnecessary involvement with worldly concerns such as intense involvement with business transactions and making lots of money is detrimental to spiritual progress.

Why is a guru who has access to the sublime bliss of Sach Khand (heaven) in need of great amounts of money or the pursuit of wordly interests and hobbies associated with a world that is supposedly, from his perspective, a pit of shit in comparison to the exhalted region he has access to?

the person who sent those email messages is a stupid idiot and a cheap coward imo. and his/her points/arguments are lame.

but i am not going to bother explaining why this person is an idiot... until this person has the guts and the integrity to post a comment, just like everyone else does.

some little coward, hiding behind a veil of obscurity, is not worthy of any serious response.


This comment is a reply to the sender of the email that Brian has posted above - July 20, 2010 at 8:00pm. Sender, please excuse me if at any point you find my tone offensive.

SENDER says -
In your post ' RSSB's ties to Religare mix money and spirituality... ' what proof do you have that the RSSB Guru ( Baba Ji ) literally runs the company ? That he makes all the important decisions and spends a considerable amount of time driving the business ? And if he is making millions for his family and kids, is that such a big crime ? In America we do that, we call it capitalism.

Reply -
I hope you know that the Guru and his family are the largest shareholders of the company : Religare. The business model was conceived by Gurinder, and the Singh brothers are just a front-face of the company. In the second quarter of 2009, some members of the Religare top-brass understood that ' orders ' were coming not from the CEO but from a ' higher source ' and that the CEO was nothing but a pawn in the hands of a ' Guru ' who was taking all the decisions - but was actually incognito. They soon discovered that a shareholder by the name of ' Gurpreet Dhillon ' who was tucked away in the London office was actually the son of the leader of a large spiritual sect. A little more inquiry lead to further details that uncovered Gurinder Singh Dhillon of RSSB as the founder and ' hidden ' head-honcho of Religare.

( How the leader of a spiritual sect managed to set up and drive a billion dollar company is another issue, one that I'm not going to talk about at the moment. )

Now, lets talk about Charlie's Angels. The CEO of Religare Enterprises Ltd. is an initiate named Mr. Sunil Godhwani - the personal treasurer and right-hand man of the Guru. He is also the Guru's long-time friend. Closed-door meetings are often held at Mr. Sunil Godhwani's farmhouse in New Delhi and the Guru is constantly in touch with him on the phone when they're apart. ( Even the chauffeurs know about this ! ) Mr. Godhwani's residence is the Guru's home for all ' unofficial ' visits into the capital. How do I know this ? A close family has a relative who works for Religare, and I'm good friends with people who are well connected with the ' inner circle ' members. This information has also been confirmed by a dozen well known people from the Indian financial sector.

You're talking about capitalism ? This is not capitalism, this is a big guerilla coup ! Usually, there's always something shady when someone is hiding something, and your ' Baba Ji ' clearly has a lot to hide. Otherwise, why hasn't he come out in the open ? Why is this something that needs to be rationalized ?

SENDER says -
You've heard of Rev. Joel Osteen, I'm sure, http://www.joelosteen.com or maybe seen his weekly TV programs. He is a Christian minister, and spiritual leader from Houston, Texas. I'm sure he's very savvy when it comes to business and making money, and there's no doubt in my mind that he's a multimillionaire. I'm sure his kids are millionaires too, thanks to Joel. His books have been on the NY Times best selling author list - many times. He's rolling in money !

Reply -
I doubt if Joel's bestsellers would be describing him as a GIHF and he probably not handing out ' rennet free cheese ' lists to his faithful.

SENDER says -
My question to you is this - Does it spiritually matter that Joel Osteen is making big money for his family and kids and still running a big Church like Lakewood ? I'm sure he has lots of insider trading tips from his Texan buddies and Christian associates too. That's called networking, and we all do it.

Reply -
Does it spiritually matter... ? Sorry, but I think your idea of morality can do with some kindergarden basics, seems like you missed ' ethics ' class in school.

SENDER says -
Yet, when an eastern Master like Baba Ji does the same thing, we are quick to blast him and criticize him. We think that the eastern Guru should be in sandals, simple, poor, and his family should be poor too. Why the double standards ?

Reply -
I do not want my spiritual Master to be poor, but I think I'd expect him to practice what he preaches. Gurinder Singh's business operations are a clear departure from the teachings of RS Sant Mat. I think your ' Baba Ji ' is the one who has double standards - he talks about detachment, but silently runs a billion dollar company.

SENDER says -
Anyhow, I'm sure Baba Ji and his family are giving lots of money to help run the Dera, and all the centers he has around the world. Its not cheap to run these places. I know that I stayed at the Dera for a month once and didn't have to pay a dime for the room and board.

Reply -
That is totally incorrect. Dera is a self-sustaining economy which is run by the money that comes from donations by the Sangat and all operations are carried out by volunteers. RSSB centers ( in India and around the world ) are built and maintained by volunteers, so it is rather cheap to ' run ' these places. It is all monetary or physical ' Seva ' by the Sangat in every way, but it is the RSSB trust that owns these properties. RSSB has cut back on all charitable activities, so it is not likely that the Guru's family are giving anything at all ! You didn't pay a dime for the boarding & lodging at the Dera... Well, that was Charan Singh's idea, thank him for that. I wonder what Gurinder would have done !

SENDER says -
Anyhow, waiting to hear from you. Thanks.

Reply -
Would you like to have a dialogue via private email ? Any more questions ? It may be a good idea to step out of your cowardice and post your thoughts on the blog, trust me, you'll not have killed a holy cow.

Sender, this is in reply to your second email -

Sender says -
You ( Brian ) wrote ' since Gurinder Singh is considered to be (1) infallible and (2) utterly un-self interested. '

Reply -
Yes, that is what RSSB has propagated all along. Gurinder's primary role as the Param Sant Satguru of RSSB is to ferry souls back to their spiritual abode - Sach Khand. What is he doing the corporate shark-pit ? Why is he so interested in building a business empire ? What about the evils of ' Lobh and Moh ' ( greed & attachment ) that initiates are expected to overcome ?

Sender says -
I know the RS books say all of that but I guest I don't consider Baba Ji as a ' God man ' or God incarnate, or even infallible. I see him more like a Prophet, and a not perfect Prophet at that.

Reply -
Okay, he may be an imperfect prophet in your eyes, but no, he cannot error on matters of morals. I think you're stuck in the ' Modern Master ' loop, where you think its spiritually cool to have a Burberry-wearing Baba giving you witty one-liners and guaranteeing you a safe trip to heaven. I was stuck in that mindset too, until it dawned upon me that a Sadhu who truly enjoys his Sadhana has little interest in material pleasures.

Sender says -
Consider the old testament prophets, they had a connection to the Divine Energy or God, but they also made lots of mistakes. Moses killed a man in anger, for example. David committed adultery, Jonah tried to run away from his mission, some prophets visited prostitutes, etc.

Reply -
So you essentially think that even if the Guru's worldly life is questionable, it should be acceptable. Wow ! Are you seriously afraid of standing on your own two feet ? Damn, the Wall Street swindlers should be forgiven.

Sender says -
I think disciples put the Master on the pedestal too much ! Know what I mean ? But they do it because of what they read, I know. I did it too for many years. Anyhow, I prefer the word Prophet now, when I think of the Master.

Reply -
I think you're beginning to accept shades of grey when it comes to your choice of a spiritual Master. So the idea of a ' Perfect Master ' as presented by RSSB can do with a bit of change. What do you say ?

Sender, this is my reply to your third email which has had the honor of becoming a blog-post !

Sender says -
Thanks Brian. I think a lot of people confuse the ' inner Master ' with the ' outer Master ' and it is confusing too !

Reply -
Sender, there is no confusion. There is no doppelgänger of any ' master / nam / dynamic divinity ' within us. The RS initiates have been led on by a philosophy that is confusingly dualistic and is designed to have the initiate in a snare for the rest of his / her life.

Sender says -
As you know, the inner Master is Nam, the Word, or God in its dynamic form - and it is perfect. The outer Master is a human being who makes mistakes, just like you and me. Hopefully the mistakes are few, but other Prophets in history have made major mistakes - however the Lord chose them for whatever reason.

Reply -
Are you backhandedly admitting that Gurinder is like one of us, and has probably screwed up ? You're also implying that an imperfect Master can be perfectly realized. Have you ever heard of a bad cow that gave good milk ? And, the Lord did not choose Gurinder, Charan did. And, if ( by your logic ) Charan was a prophet too ( outer Master ) then how can he be Lord ( inner Master ) ? Did you receive an email from Lord about Gurinder's succession through Charan ?

Sender says -
That's why I like the word Prophet instead of the highly exalting titles for the Guru, like ' the word made flesh ' or ' the son of God ' or ' the word incarnate ', etc. Prophets can and do make mistakes sometimes - its a more human term. But when the Prophet is in perfect union with God or the Word, he or she does seem perfect like God. I have personally witnessed Baba Ji say things in Satsang that he couldn't have possibly know without a connection to a higher power.

Reply -
I've more than understood that you are in love with the word ' prophet ' as it gives your ' Baba Ji ' ample space for questionable activities in your mind. But how do you know that your ' prophet ' is in ' perfect union ' with ' God ' and what has ' Baba Ji ' said that has you convinced that he has a connection to a ' higher power ' of some sorts ? Please present your argument here, or send a reply to Brian. I'll wait for it, or else I'll consider you a real run-away leprechaun.

Sender says -
And think about this : Baba Ji was a businessman in Spain before he was picked to be the Guru - an international businessman. He already had a lot of contacts and was a great businessman, I've heard - he could make money. He loved what he was doing in his business world too, but suddenly this ball and chain is dropped on him to become the SatGuru at Beas. Because of family and social pressures, he had to do it, but he didn't want to. It would be very tempting for anyone like that to want to get back into business again, even a little bit if they could - if they had half a chance to.

Reply -
Oh ! No ! You really have it upside down here homeboy ! Come on, get some facts in line ! The Guru was working for a gentleman named J.W. Balani in Spain, in his administrative department. The Guru was not an ' international businessman ' but an employee who was on a payroll like everyone else who worked in the company. ( You will find Mr. J.W. Balani < now ex-boss > on the Board of Directors on the Religare website. ) I have heard the Guru joke about his ' tough ' days in Spain and how ' lucky ' he has been to be in ' this position ' now. He was a reluctant successor, but he did have the option to cop out of the ' gaddi ' at Beas. Wearing the GIHF badge was his choice, not the Sangats'. So when do you think the ' satori ' occurred ? When that ' ball & chain ' dropped on him ? Or, was he born enlightened ? You're also suggesting he was ' tempted ' to ' get back to business ' somewhere down the line. Am I the only one who thinks that the words ' tempted Satguru ' could make for a new oxymoron ?

Sender says -
What if you were a teacher or professor before you got called to be SatGuru, and you loved it - it was your pride and joy. Wouldn't you be tempted to keep up with what was going on in the world of education ? Wouldn't you jump back in there a little if you could ? Or if you were a computer geek before being Guru, wouldn't you still want to keep up with the IT world and technology, if you got the chance to ? But when Baba Ji does some business transactions, his old profession, and we are ready to burn him at the stake ! We are ready to call him a fake, an infidel, and we want to shun him. This isn't very fair of us, is it ? Take care.

Reply -
Religare was not the family business, so your argument doesn't make sense. It was not his ' old profession ' but a new business venture that was started much after he became the Guru at Beas. ( The funding of Religare is another debatable topic... ) Gurinder was not a millionaire, and that is common knowledge amongst the people who knew him in his pre-Guru days. ( You can also verify this with some prominent business families in Punjab if you have a trustworthy link. ) He didn't have millions of dollars when he returned from Spain ! However, he now owns a global financial services enterprise. I think, in all fairness, Gurinder has a few things to explain.

Tara, excellent comments. As the saying goes, "the truth will make you free." You've spoken the truth as you understand it, which is in accord with facts -- unlike the twisted truths my email correspondent put forth in numerous instances.

It's interesting that so-called heretics like you and me try to present the Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas teachings as they are, rather than personalizing them to fit some individual agenda or need.

As you said, if initiates of Gurinder Singh view him as a "prophet" rather than a "satguru" who is essentially identical with God, they have a serious misunderstanding of the spiritual path they claim to follow.


The other day Gurinder appeared at the Southall Satsang. He was wearing what appeared to be Charans turban.I am wondering whether how often he wears it? He gave namaste as he was seated on the dias, and then gave a talk in Punjabi presumably..

Interestingly, he did not give a Q and A but slipped out of one of the halls of the Southall Satsang presumably via some side entrance. People were waiting outside around the front of the Satsang building to see him give darshan but he did not materialize..so to speak!

Maybe he was racing off in his chauffer driven mercedes to see his son in London, or may be he had some business interests in Southall itself which is quite possible but unlikely as it is not exactly a very wealthy area.....

SHARES IN RELIGARE....


I am wondering what effects these revelations about who is really behind Religare going to make to investors? This is especially true when Gurinder has been referred to as being a "crook" or words to that effect.

Ofcourse, most of the shares (if I am not mistaken) are owned by Gurinder, and his two sons, and presumably the rest by relatives, and Satsangis.

But there must be, or will be people presumably investing in them from outside the world of Sant Mat, and Surat Shabd Yoga? What are they going to think when they read this stuff on the blog? They might have second thoughts in investing but that is unlikely if Religare is doing well ofcourse.

Many high flying business people are probably crooks for how else could they have reached such dizzying financial heights??

Robert, I made the effort to send your comment ( above ) to a few people, so check this space in the next 48 hours. I'll compile the opinions and post 'em.

Tara,

How does one know that a particular person is wearing another's tuban? Does Charan's turban have any special markings?
Thanks Roger

Roger,
Charan's turban was a few color tones lighter than the one Gurinder wears. However, its most likely that Gurinder has got a few new ones to match Charan's. ( ?? ) No special markings that I'm aware of ! The turbans are just traditional Sikh " pugrees " that are self-tied clockwise around the head.

I thinking it didn't fit :) lol

Nietzsche... Hee Hee !


The followising comes from the Secret History Site on RSSB..

Did you know many RS gurus may be millionaires claiming to live off their own earnings and will not provide financial statements to the public for their non profit organizations, nor disclose the salaries they receive ? Why have all the major Radhasoami Gurus read this site and why are they unable to answer the major problems of theology and history contained herein ?

The question is how true are the above claims?

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html


WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RADHASOAMI INVALIDATION SITE?

Radhasoami Invalidation : Invalidation arguments for RS-Beas Group based in Beas, India. Based upon information from personal experiences covering over twelve years and on research data provided by David Lane through his web page THE NEURAL SURFER and personal communications with him, I have re-evaluated the claims, practices and activities of RS-Beas and now feel that there exists significant evidence to conclude that the group does not represent a legitimate spiritual path as it claims to do in its many books.
For the benefit of researchers of spiritual groups and other interested parties, I have outlined here the basic points that I considered in arriving at this conclusion. I trust the data will be useful.

Ref link http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/links.htm

One of the claims made by the above site was there was a certain amount of smuggling going....and that the various Satsang Centres acted as a cover for spies! The last claims seems a little dubious but who knows??

Robert,

The site moved: http://rssbdata.i8.com/

Surprised no one has mentioned lightening strike, direct hit, on Babaji's house at Haynes Park, Bedford, July 14th when he & family in residence. Over 25 firefighters called, roof ablaze & extensive damage to first floor. Story now circulating in local UK Sangat, that this was just another example of Babaji taking on Satsangis' karmas. Alternative might be, that the Lord moves in mysterious ways to indicate a certain displeasure.
PS: dealings of Religare/Fortis appear to follow path of expanding global Sangat, would this explain focus on Chinese contingent this last few years, what with China being the new emergent market?

J Nisarga,
Thanks for the information. I heard that there is a ton of dubious paperwork that goes into bringing the Chinese Sangat into the Dera.

lightn'ins a strikin? ohhh yeahhh!

... well you can't say that i didn't give y'all some advance warning about this sort of thing awile back.

and as the power of the now impending apocalyse continues to intensify and reveal, its going to get a whole lot hell of a lot more uncomfortable (and dangerous) for these false gods and corrupt evildoers.

and as their masks (and turbans) come off, and their (false) power crumbles, and their rotten asses roast in the cosmic fire... think of it all as poignant object lessons.

you know its been a long time a'comin, and this is only the beginning. so grasshoppers, you'd best be fastenin yo seat belts and gettin down off those high horses and plastic jesus'.


The Crystal Ship - by The Doors

Before you slip into unconsciousness
I'd like to have another kiss
Another flashing chance at bliss
Another kiss, another kiss

The days are bright and filled with pain
Enclose me in your gentle rain
The time you ran was too insane
We'll meet again, we'll meet again

Oh tell me where your freedom lies
The streets are fields that never die
Deliver me from reasons why
You'd rather cry, I'd rather fly

The Crystal Ship is being filled
A thousand girls, a thousand thrills
A million ways to spend your time
When we get back, I'll drop a line



Rose,

Thank you for the new link. It is interesting that the name of the webhost does not appear on it. Moreover, some of the comments on it seem to raise a red flag as to the rationality of the writer(s).

Also, what we are seeing with the RSSB is the beginning of the end. What Gurinder is doing is simply the Mauj, or Divine Will. So, how can he be punished as such?? Realize that it was not Charan Singh who appointed him but his own inner Master "Sawan Singh" (or his Higher Self, or Personal God as indicated by Faqir Chands understanding) as revealed in the Will. The former may well have had doubts about Gugu. Charan was simply submitting to the commands of his inner Master, or"God", or the "Higher Self" which probably for whatever reasons wants to see the demise of RSSB Gurus at some point in the future. Hence, Gurinder Singh becomes Master, and sets the ball rolling....

Incidently, RSSB does not believe that the last five Sikh Gurus were perfect. Maybe Sar Bachan in the end may replace the need for a Living Guru...Anything is possible!!!

Robert,

Has it ever occurred to you that Charan may not have wanted to be entirely responsible for his choice ? Maybe diverting the decision making to Sawan was the best way to pass the buck... ( ?? )

Gurinder often refers to Charan in the same manner. " If Huzur wants it that way / pray to Huzur / if its Huzur's will / Huzur will have mercy... "

I don't think any of them want / wanted to take responsibility for their own actions. Just a thought.

Yeah tAo ! These tricksters that cheat people into becoming their followers are going down, and rapidly...

... and tAo, you did see it comin' !!!

In response to : Robert Searle | August 10, 2010 at 06:56 AM

Robert - I am wondering what effects these revelations about who is really behind Religare going to make to investors ?

--> Shareholding of Religare : I emailed a few people, it seems like Religare is largely privately owned. Gurinder and his family own approximately 45% of Religare, the Singh brothers own approximately 35%, Sunil Godhwani owns 1%, other institutional investors own 15% and 4% is owned by individual investors. The Singh brothers are the front-face of the company and have lent it the business legacy it needs. For an ordinary investor ( who doesn't know about the RSSB / GIHF angle ) its like investing in any other company, which it really is.

Malvinder and Shivinder ( the Singh brothers ) recently stepped down from the board positions and as NDTV ( an Indian news channel ) put it :
" Simultaneously, the Board appointed Sunil Godhwani, whom Singh described as his ' trusted lieutenant ' to protect the family's business interest, as CMD. "

Another financial newspaper, the Economic Times quoted Malvinder Singh :
" If there are professionals who can run the business better, we don’t need to be there, " said Mr. Singh adding, " I could take this decision because I have the luxury of a person like Mr. Godhwani. " ( Hmmm... and GS as well ? )

( Its most likely that Gurinder is now in total charge of Religare, while the Singh brothers will focus on their healthcare business : Fortis. The common consensus is that even to an unknowing outsider, the Singh brothers seem to be over-patronizing of Sunil Godhwani. Beyond this patriarchal mindset, there is also a slew of arrogant assumptions that they often make... )

Hottinger & Cie : ( Hottinger & Cie Banquiers Privés operates as a private bank. The bank through its subsidiaries offers private asset management services, trust and corporate services, financial engineering, legal and tax advice, investment advice, foreign exchange, securities trading, and margin credits services. The bank was founded in 1786 and is based in Zurich, Switzerland. ) This bank " owns " almost ten percent of Religare... ( ?? )

Robert - This is especially true when Gurinder has been referred to as being a " crook " or words to that effect.

--> Ordinary investors wouldn't care, though Gurinder's " crookery " would probably go down as " divine grace " with some RSSB initiates who could make a beeline for " God's own company... " Yes, I've heard statements like " Religare can never go down because Baba Ji is behind it ! " and crazy stuff like that.
Quite strange what faith can do to logic.

Robert - Of course, most of the shares ( if I am not mistaken ) are owned by Gurinder, and his two sons, and presumably the rest by relatives, and Satsangis.

--> Relatives are strictly kept out. Only the Singh brothers and the Guru and his two sons are partners in this venture. Anyone who knows Gurinder and his extended family knows about the feuds that abound between them. Gurinder is known to have favored his relatives and friends with plump positions, but giving them equity - never ! I don't know of any Satsangi's ( and I know many ) who had big investments in Religare before Gurinder's involvement became public. But I heard that a number of Satsangis have now invested small amounts after the Religare revelations... Religare has applied for a banking license now, maybe it will be the official bank for RS initiates ! ( LOL )

Robert - But there must be, or will be people presumably investing in them from outside the world of Sant Mat, and Surat Shabd Yoga ? What are they going to think when they read this stuff on the blog ?

--> Like I said, nobody cares ! Regular people who hear about the GIHF tagline and Gurinder's business interests, simply laugh. If you look at it as an outsider, the RSSB mission looks like a huge scam. Have you heard the jokes ?

Robert - They might have second thoughts in investing but that is unlikely if Religare is doing well of course.

--> Last year Religare declared a profit of only 10 Million USD. Presently, it is struggling with quick employee turnover and bad PR. Sunil Godhwani was a garment exporter and had no experience or exposure to financial markets before he was entrusted with the task of creating a financial services company. ( His profile on the Religare website makes no mention of this... ) You can read up about Religare's corporate governance on several sites, you'll get the picture.

Robert - Many high flying business people are probably crooks for how else could they have reached such dizzying financial heights ?

--> Yes, and that includes GS as well. I don't care about the high flying business people and their crooked ways, as long as they don't call themselves GIHF and rob innocent followers of their emotions, time and money.

Tara wrote: "... I don't care about the high flying business people and their crooked ways, as long as they don't call themselves GIHF and rob innocent followers of their emotions, time and money.

--That is the crux of the matter and why, if all of this is true, Gurinder is a bad dude...really bad. A con artist. People invest the foundation of their lives on this fraud, this cynical creep. All this love and obedience to the "perfect sat guru" and he just takes it to the bank. Sickening. I hope tAo is right and there is a mass awakening to the sinister reality of RSSB and they leave the cult in droves.


Thank you very much Tara for your communication. Obviously, you know your stuff so to speak!

However, as far as I am concerned the REAL MASTER is ones Higher Self which lies within irrespective of whether the outer physical link to it (ie GS) is corrupt, or not.

I have explained all this before in connection with Faqir Chand, but the trouble with it is that people find such a notion socially unacceptable. This is understanble especially if more serious revelations emerge from the outer "master"!


Tara,
This is just another message to you in public. You appear to be well-connected as far as RSSB is concerned.

On this site I mentioned that Gurinder sometime before he became the Master was involved in something "questionable" of a business-like nature. But the Dera sent a mesage to those connected with the matter in which it was said that he was a Perfect Master!!! Hence, he could do no wrong even though something appeared possibly "wrong". This claim I heard from an English teacher who was working in Spain...and was mystified about the whole matter, and asked what power are we dealing with?

I am wondering whether a number of "high up" Satsangis knew that he was regarded as a "Perfect Master" before Charan passed on? With your connections you might be able to throw light. Apparently though, some people were surprised that he was made a successor to Charan Singh....

....which incidently takes me back to the Wikipedia entry which now says the GS succeeded Charan Singh. There is no mention of him being a Sevadar. However, in the discussion section I mention this, and so far it has not been removed...

Also, I have noticed a few Facebook Religare sites....

Robert,

You stated,

"I am wondering whether a number of "high up" Satsangis knew that he was regarded as a "Perfect Master" before Charan passed on?"

--Before Charan passed on, I'm guessing that Gurinder would have been a regular satsangi. Maybe, a "high up" one. To be given the "Perfect Master" title before his Master Charan 'passed on' would be an interesting bit of info.

Robert & Roger,
Here is a summary of the succession.

At the time of the announcement, Gurinder was in Spain. He received a phone call after Charan's passing that he had been chosen by his Master ( Charan ) to become the next Param Sant Sat Guru of RSSB. This came as a big surprise to most people ( friends & family ) who were close to Charan. Some were expecting Dr. Parminder Singh, the son-in-law of Charan Singh to become the next Guru. ( Parminder was the husband of Nimmie Singh & father of the two Singh brothers - Malvinder & Shivinder who now are partners with Gurinder. )

I remember having a conversation with GS a few years ago and he himself told me about the " phone call " and what a surprise it was to him, though at that time ( as I believed he was a GIHF ) I thought he was just being humble. Gurinder was just another member of the extended family and was not considered to be a Perfect Living Master ( PLM ) before he became the Guru ! He was not a " higher-up " in RSSB and was actually quite disconnected from the Dera politics and was leading a quiet life in Spain with his family.

Gurinder's tenure started out on low-key beginnings. It was a long while before he gave his first Satsang and wore dark glasses for almost a year and a half. Initiation started much later. The brimming confidence that you see today is the result of a well orchestrated succession. What I saw ( back then ) was a reluctant successor who was cautious about every move he made.

What would you do if you suddenly became the head of a large spiritual sect and had everyone looking up to you for " grace & mercy " on one hand, and for all management related decisions on the other ? How would it feel to have Sevadars ( double your age ) standing in submission with folded hands, saying... " Baba Ji, hukum karo ! " ( translated as ) " What do you desire Master ? "

I'm sure it was rather difficult for him in the initial years and maybe there were times he may have just wanted to run away from it all, and that's why IMO, he pursues his business interests on the side, as a break from the " Guru " thing.

Robert,

I don't know of that particular incident, though I know of a number of similar incidents where the RSSB publicists pulled out one of these cards...
" His Will / Perfect Living Master / He Knows Best / Do Not Question " etc.
Well, the point is that Gurinder is considered to be over and above " mistakes & follies " and that gives him enough room for questionable activities.

You mentioned the wikipedia entry, has it changed ?
I find it quite vague anyway... :)


Tara,

Again,thank you for taking the time to come out with some more illuminating comments. You seem to have quite a bit of "inside" knowledge (so to speak!)about the Dera, and GS..

Hi Tara,

Thanks for your message. You mentioned,

"At the time of the announcement, Gurinder was in Spain. He received a phone call after Charan's passing that he had been chosen by his Master ( Charan ) to become the next Param Sant Sat Guru of RSSB."

---Does anyone know who called Gurinder on the phone? How was the authorization/confirmation of succession carried out? By mouth or some certified documentation? If Gurinder was truely engaged in a 'big' suprise, then one can guess that there was no pre-authorized succession 'action' plan in place. I'm guessing.

The formal process of succession is what I would find interesting, based on your message. Thanks again..Roger

Hi Roger.
To my knowledge, Charan's will was sealed in an envelope. It was read out by the RSSB secretary ( I'm forgetting his name, will ask my father later ) to a congregation of important RSSB members soon after Charan's passing. Gurinder was called by the secretary, who was very close to Charan. In the will Charan had mentioned that he had received an insight from his Master ( Sawan Singh ) to appoint Gurinder Singh as the next Guru of RSSB. In my opinion, there was no pre-authorized succession plan in place. The succession ceremony was held at the Kothi ( Charan's residence ) in Beas where extended families and friends gathered. The will was read out again and the " Rasam Pagri " or turban ceremony was conducted. ( This is a Sikh turban-tying tradition and signifies that the mantle is being passed on from one generation to another. Usually the oldest son of the family has the honor to receive his father's turban. In this case it was a succession, so it marked Gurinder as the new Param Sant Sat Guru of the RS sect. ) After the ritual, lunch was served.

I've mentioned this before... During the time when Charan Singh was the Guru, personal business interests and RSSB matters were kept separate. Also, the RSSB secretary and management had more authority than they do today. Most of Charan's core RSSB members were older men who had committed themselves to a lifetime of Seva, were well reputed and respected by all. Of course, they were annoyingly old-fashioned, but they also possessed a lot of love and went about serving the Sangat and RSSB quite selflessly. The term " higher-ups " has acquired a different connotation today and refers to Gurinder's band of close aides who share commerce and RSSB positions, so " higher-ups " is not such an eyebrow-raising term when I think of the Charan days.

The reason I state the above is to emphasize that RSSB Sevadars during Charan's time commanded a certain authority and no family member could over-rule or jeopardize the validity of the succession.


Tara,

I was intrigued by the following comment...

".....I know of a number of similar incidents where the RSSB publicists pulled out one of these cards...
" His Will / Perfect Living Master / He Knows Best / Do Not Question " etc....."

I am wondering if you still own one, or more of these cards mentioned above. It seems somewhat bizarre.Are such cards still being used, and how often, and where usually?

More light please....

The following maybe of interest, and relevance and comes from "foolishworld"...The English may seem a little odd....

People of this world are so fool they make comment without knowing the facts. Private jet is not bought from people's money by RSSB Guru it was given to Him by her cusion sister who is extremely rich. And she till now giving huge amount in seva. And RSSB Guru doesn't need anyone's money even if you will see their family history 100 years ago when they were not Guru, they were royal family and having huge acres of land. They announced many time during satsang not to give money in seva if it is not earned honestly. I am 100% sure whole of money which is received is not managed by RSSB Guru but people like me and you who are working in management. All money is managed by many groups of people totally on the wellfare of humanity. Even Babaji give a lot of money in seva from his private business and also send tons of foodgrain free from his farmhouse. Because he has huge land and it is too much for Him to consume all of it. But people of this world can never imagine that this is possible---there can be goodness, truth and love. Because they are culprit and have association with all culprit people. Thief always think others as thieves. Poeple greedy of money always think that others are also greedy like them. Their mind plans are to deceive and kill others for money so they think whole world' s people are thinking the same way.....


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7bU4AnwTQg4J:www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/aka68/my_mom_is_in_a_cult_radha_soami_satsang_beas_shes/%3Fsort%3Dnew+gurinder+singh+sant+mat&cd=69&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Thanks Tara,

Your message was very educational. Many thanks to you. Were you around to know Charan on a personal level?

I found this interesting,

"In the will Charan had mentioned that he had received an insight from his Master ( Sawan Singh ) to appoint Gurinder Singh as the next Guru of RSSB."

---It would be interesting to understand what an 'insight' is according to a GIHF.
Interesting from a blogging conversation point of view. I don't make a big deal out of any of this. It's just a interesting topic.

Thanks again to you, Roger

Robert !
That was just an expression implying that RSSB pulls a lame excuse whenever they have to defend Gurinder's actions. His Will / He's a Perfect Living Master / He Knows Best / Do Not Question / He is God / He Can Do No Wrong / He Can See the Future - are standard answers that RSSB representatives give when they are faced with a question that they do not have an answer for. I've run into this clichéd responses over the years and more so now when you ask them ( the representatives ) about Gurinder's Religare adventure...

( Reply to your next comment... ) That gibberish posted by an RS weirdo deserves little attention. For starters, Gurinder was not gifted a private jet ! He has an entire fleet at his command at Religare Voyages, so these blind followers know nothing about their Guru / RSSB and are just caught up in a fantasy that they think is real.

Quoting the anonymous weirdo " Their mind plans are to deceive and kill others for money so they think whole world' s people are thinking the same way... "
Seriously, this person needs help !

Hi Roger,
My family knew Charan very well, I met him several times. He was a kind man, I'm not getting into the PLM thing here, I just liked him as a person... :)

In RS-Sant Mat it is believed that the Guru is in constant touch with his Master and receives messages / instructions from him. Sawan's instruction to Charan was to appoint Gurinder, that's what the will read.

Tara,

Silly me....about the "cards!" But you never know!! And yes, I suppose the post from another site was a bit lame to put it mildly. I just put it here just for fun if you can call it that!!

Tara, you said,
At the time of the announcement, Gurinder was in Spain. He received a phone call after Charan's passing that he had been chosen by his Master ( Charan ) to become the next Param Sant Sat Guru of RSSB.... I remember having a conversation with GS a few years ago and he himself told me about the " phone call " and what a surprise it was to him.
I am surprised, I saw Gurinder in Dera when Charan Singh died and he was present at the time of cremation also, to my knowledge he had left Malaga for India after the Easter.

Juan,
Like I said, that is what Gurinder told me ! What if he was in another city in India or Europe or anywhere else - I don't know where he was. But, I'm certain of what he told me, and it was about a ' surprising ' phone call that he received which told him that he had been appointed as the new Guru.

Like ' miracles ' and other such stuff, I always noticed how things were sensationalized. I don't mean this in a gossipy way, but my personal experiences have led me to believe that there really are not two but many versions of what actually happens / happened. Then, there's another dimension to it - the Master works in mysterious ways. ( Well, I don't buy that one anymore. )

Thanks for your version though !


I think my blog maybe of interest.

http://thoughtsandvisions-searle88.blogspot.com/2010/09/religare-gurinder-and-beas-satsang-part.html

There is still more material to go on it when I have the time,and energy...

Robert, you've set up your own blog ! Okay, I must admit I found that last line rather hard to digest if I may put it mildly...

Quoting you - " In spite of Gurinder RSSB is still a living faith par excellence. "

Hmmm... You've become more like a friend at the Churchless and you know what I think, so I'm not going to say anything. ( I'm just smiling... )


Maybe someone throw light on this...

http://bangalore.click.in/classified/real-estate/houses-flats-rent/3-bedrooms-apartment-for-rent-yelahanka-1591347.html

There is reference to Radha Swami Estates! I assume this maybe a Beas operation which may have been discussed already? Dayalbagh Satsang on occassions allow the name of Radhasoami to appear on their business I believe !

http://www.unp.co.in/f16/radha-swami-satsang-beas-expose-business-dealings-65652/

Found this story about a man that thought his apartment belonged to him and later his family but it turns out that his payment was to be seen as a deposit so Gurinder told him. His apparently belonged to the dera the payment allowed him to live there during his life. It shows too how the administration works with lawyers to maintain the feudal dera organization. There is no need to make a last will everything goes to the dera anyway.

The following google search link gives references to some "new" data, and dealings by Radha Swami Estates...

http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=radha+swami+estates&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=fb65bc885a9abf7

With respect to Nietzche I believe the info in his link has been put on this site before..

i was walking in the woods the other day and security guards walked towards me in a threatening manner (this is a public footpath)... most peculiar behaviour. For an organisation so committed to spirituality (God 'is love'), they are doing very well at alientating themselves from the local villagers, they even tried to ban people from walking in the woods adjacent to Haynes Park.
Not a very loving way to go about welcoming people... in fact rather disturbing. Sounds like the case of a good cause turned corrupt (like all organised religion)

Dave ...

I'll tell you something about these " sevadars " which ( in this case ) are the security volunteers of RSSB. They are just a bunch of jackasses — seemingly intimidating on the outside but surprisingly faint hearted on the inside.

The next time they try to threaten you with their presence, just look at one of them in the eye and tell them you'll call the cops. Firmly reinstate that they are violating the law and that you will not tolerate their jerkish antics.

If you grab them by the horns, you'll end up with a halloween bull costume in your hands and you'll see a coward scurrying back into the woods. Peace.

Tara, I can't recall how much I've shared on this blog about my own extensive "security seva" experiences. Someday I'll check my past writings and add on to them. This is an interesting subject. It says a lot about the religious mind, how people relate to other people when they feel they are on a mission from God.

Having read the initial post and peoples comments, one must understand there is nothing illegal in the activities of Gurinder Singh Dillion regarding Religare in this story. Yes, I can understand peoples initial reactions and concerns, but one has to earn money in this world in order to live in this world. Sprirtuality promotes honest living, especially living off your own income. It does not matter whether you purchase shares or work as a shoe cleaner. As long as you do not do anything illegal in the process, there is no harm done.

Someone, I don't agree with you. Here in the United States, as around the world, lots of people have been hurt by financial dealings by big investment firms which weren't technically illegal, yet were decidedly wrong (derivatives trading that caused a collapse of the housing market, and many other shady practices).

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Someone can legitimately be criticized even though they haven't broken the letter of the law.

As a Brit, most here would consider that the 'law' as such, that is what is considered legitimate - whether within society at large, or within the more rarified world of business - is always open to interpretation ... so it is never a matter of being absolutely right or wrong, rather how much one may slip/slide within given parameters.

Considering what is now known about Gurinder's business dealings perhaps it could be argued that he has become quite adept at slipping & sliding! And, it is that - yes - which has raised legitmate concerns amongst those who follow the spiritual path of Sant Mat?

Someone says : Having read the initial post and peoples comments, one must understand there is nothing illegal in the activities of Gurinder Singh Dhillon regarding Religare in this story.

Reply : Things don't necessarily have to be illegal to be immoral. The person in question is not your local billionaire, but Gurinder Singh Dhillon — the Perfect Living Master, the God In Human Form and the Param Sant Sat Guru of RSSB, worshipped by millions of his followers. His sole purpose according to the RS theology is to free his disciples from the cycle of rebirth and rid them of the five evils — lust, rage, greed, attachment, ego. It seems like his interests in the material world have distracted him from his soul-saving responsibility.

Someone says : Yes, I can understand peoples initial reactions and concerns, but one has to earn money in this world in order to live in this world.

Reply : There is a strong focus in the RS teachings on detachment as a stepping stone to spiritual ascension, so how much money would a Perfect Living Master really need ? Does he need a Bentley ? I'd imagine that someone who is so close to God ( well, God himself ) wouldn't need extravagant worldly trappings that draw the Surat downwards into the lower regions of Maya. So IMO, preaching detachment from a bullhorn while riding in a Bentley is hypocritical.

Someone says : Spirituality promotes honest living, especially living off your own income.

Reply : Well then, it is of utmost importance to all believers to discern whether the Guru they follow ( and who preaches exactly that ) is himself practicing what he's teaching. There cannot be ifs, buts and loopholes when it comes to a GIHF. He ought to be squeaky clean, like an internally flawless diamond.

Someone says : It does not matter whether you purchase shares or work as a shoe cleaner.

Reply : Here the " how " factor becomes very important and if it is the Guru we're talking about, then even the smallest doubt should be brought out into the light and should be easily able to withstand scrutiny. As you have said you understand people's " initial reactions and concerns " may I ask you what has stopped Gurinder from coming out with the facts if there are no discrepancies ?

Someone says : As long as you do not do anything illegal in the process, there is no harm done.

Reply : The political, civil or corporate legality of an issue cannot serve as a stamp of approval for a set of means that may be questionable, debatable and objectionable under the established code of ethics of the entity itself — in this case : Radha Soami Satsang Beas. We're not discussing the law of the land, this is an out-and-out comparison with the tenets of the RS faith — where the means are equally important as the ends, where fairness and righteousness in the Guru's dealings must emulate and uphold the philosophy's teachings, where allegations of infringement must be directly answered by the Guru himself and where " Honest Living " must either be withdrawn from circulation or Religare must emphasize and accurately declare the Guru's participation as contextually valid, open to audit and in line with the core RS beliefs.

The following mahy be of interest. It is from a Sikh site....

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/61749-radha-soami-a-mix-of-money-and-spirituality/

Robert, that link you shared has content copied from one of my own blog posts about RSSB and Religare.


I do not understand. What is the problem? There is reference to your blog after all?

Robert, I didn't see any reference to my blog post in the person's discussion group sharing, so I wasn't sure whether you realized the material came from this blog. There's no problem in sharing the info. However, I do think that when people copy something from a web site, they should clearly indicate the source -- just as a courtesy (well, also as a matter of copyright law).

I second Brian. You will find dime a dozen RSSB-Religare links all over the net which have just copy-pasted content from this site. Yes, it is always polite to give credit to a source site, so I do think it is mini-big-deal of some kind ... :)

Malvinder & Shivinder Singh are worth 3.5 Billion US Dollars according to the Forbes billionare list in March 2012. It must be nice to be rich, and to make the Forbes list!

http://www.forbes.com/profile/malvinder-shivinder-singh/

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