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January 31, 2010

Comments

Thanks for the info Brian.

Not many families will receive a personal letter from “He who must be obeyed and served”. There’s always a pay off for those in power and Sam was almost worshipped as a mini guru in the sangat. Ah, the favored few, seems obvious to me that Sant Mat is clearly a hierarchical system just like any other organization in this world.

I'd agree with Brian and Jen.

As I see it, there is a great divide between the real teachings of (RS) Sant Mat, and the way things are today.

After reading Brian's post earlier this morning, I found this -
( Just some warmer feelings there... )

http://www.ytf.co.za/2010/01/articles/we-honour-the-life-of-sam-busa/

IMO, Sant Mat is a synthesis of both Eastern and Western Religion. And this factor may be responsible for its attractiveness to so many Westerners with a Christian background.

Kal = Satan
Guru = Jesus
Liberation = Salvation
Prasad = Christian Eucharist
Sant Mat Dualism = Christian Dualism
Shabd = Word of God (in St. John)

and so on.

Bob, good point. I've pondered this myself quite a bit. Here's an example, a post I called "Jesus is alive and well in India."
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2008/02/jesus-is-alive.html

Hi Brian, I don't snoop around your site much anymore except to see what kind of criticism you have for RSSB. I am still an agnostic, just got back from India, and found the trip to be powerful and transformative in very positive ways. My perception of Gurinder Singh is critical and I don't see God with a turban on, but I would rather talk to him than anyone else.

My visit confirmed my perception that the whole thing smacks of the type of religious practices and dogmas that I hate and that they say they eschew. Nevertheless, I would say this is unavoidable given the size of the organization.

Members of the organization are making it a religion because contact with the master is impossible. Charan Singh used to say worshiping a dead master did not make any sense because a dead master is as far away from us as god himself. I would say the current living master is as far away as god himself, so out of the need to have tangible contact we start religious practices such as building temples, singing shabds, holy books, etc. All of which are a part of modern sant mat and serve to make the untangible tangible. A hierarchy has developed based on wealth, the desire to dominate, etc. rather than spiritual qualities.

BUT, there is something about BeeJi, something almost magical, that I do not perceive in anyone else. He has something wonderful I have not perceived in anyone else. I plan to go back next year and consider myself lucky to be able to do so. I know it is not popular to say positive things about Gurinder on this mostly Gurinder bashing website, but that is my perception.

I try and look at sant mat from opposing angles at all times I try to remain on both sides. Sant Mat theology is just like every other theology. A guru in India appearing in my forehead is less plausible than Jesus coming down on a cloub so I count all theology as fantasy, but still, there is something about BeeJi that I cannot describe because I have no reference point.

When you say "to my mind what's better and more honest is to express one's sympathy and sorrow, and leave it at that" I think you are forgetting that to them what Beeji said is honest because it is based on beliefs they all honestly hold, or are trying to hold, just like you probably believe you are a good writer. My wife once said you spit out words like a slug spits out slime, like the slug, you just can't help it and we end up with a blog.

To these believers it is a daily reality that they both feel and believe, it colors all their perceptions, and to them it is not fantasy, it is real to them. They need to have these beliefs reinforced, just like you probably need to be told your writing is good to keep on doing it. This belief, assuming you do have such a belief, is something that is a matter of faith rather than scientific fact. There are some who hold the same faith and some who don't.

I am sure you are glad when people humor you. It is the same for these sant mat fundamentalists.

I personally think they are cowards for not following Mji's statement that you only know what you have experienced and perceived and that beliefs are hollow. If all you have are beliefs, be honest enough to say they are beliefs. Don't talk about them like they are facts.

I remember when I first got initiated everyone was expecting inner magical experiences and tried hard to produce them. Now all I hear "We will get them when we die", just like every other religion. This is disturbing and is another similarity to an organized religion.

I met Busa a few times in India and like many other satsangis I have met, I did not find him to be particulary likeable or loving. A bit of an egomaniac if I may say so.

BeeJis remarks sound like the kind of dishonest crap you hear at funerals, but I can see why he said what he said given his position. When I die I don't want someone telling my family "Well, he's gone, I don't know what the hell happened to him and neither does anyone else" even if it is true.

Hi Howard,

I discovered this blog about a month ago. I have read every single post ( and the comments thereafter ) that Brian has posted about RSSB & Sant Mat, because that category is of particular interest to me as I am beginning to question many things about the ' sect ' for the first time in my life.

However, as all of can see, Brian writes about a entire spectrum of things, listed under ' categories ' on the right hand side of the web-page. There is a lovely essay - The Spirituality of Avatar : The Movie. ( I made my husband read it, and even though he has never been on this site, he liked it very much as it gave him a different, interesting perspective... )

In my opinion, Brian comes across as an honest person. I personally know two people who have ' gone off the path ' but they refuse to come forward and openly discuss the many ambiguities they probably faced at the time they chose to disconnect themselves.

Brian is not someone " who spits out words like a slug spits out slime " as your wife commented. Brian is brutally honest about his experiences, and initially that was very difficult for me to accept. But a fortnight later, after many print-outs and many cups of tea, I began to see where he is coming from.

The wonderful thing about the internet is that I got to read your comment and the part I agree with, is quoted under -

" " I remember when I first got initiated everyone was expecting inner magical experiences and tried hard to produce them. Now all I hear ' we will get them when we die ' just like every other religion. This is disturbing and is another similarity to an organized religion. " "

Have a good day Howard !

The one thing I realized ( as I went through the contents of this blog ) is that it reinforced my desire to become a better person...


Many Splits, as I said before, I'm glad you're enjoying this blog. That makes me feel good. Which gets me to...

Howard, I found interesting your wife's comment about me spitting out words like a slug spits out slime, which results in this blog. I assume she doesn't resonate with my posts, which is fine.

But I wonder if she would similarly say:

"Devotees of a guru spit out meditation like a slug spits out slime."
"Lovers of music spit out songs like a slug spits out slime."
"Volunteers spit out charitable activities like a slug spits out slime."
"Mothers spit out child care like a slug spits out slime."

The plain fact is that all of us are drawn (or forced) to do certain things rather than other things. I happen to enjoy writing, both as a creative act and as a productive activity. Ever since I was a young kid I've enjoyed writing, inheriting/learning this predilection from my literary mother and father.

I don't feel defensive, but I do want to defend blogging, along with writing in general. It really is an art form, a way of expressing ourselves and communicating with other people. So often we keep our "inside" hidden from others, not to mention ourselves.

We speak of wanting to be closer to other people, but then we fail to break down the barriers between the "I" that is us and the "I" that is another. Sure, there are many ways of bridging this gap. Words are just one way -- an important way.

Howard said, “My visit confirmed my perception that the whole thing smacks of the type of religious practices and dogmas that I hate and that they say they eschew.” Very true imo.

He then said, “Nevertheless, I would say this is unavoidable given the size of the organization.” I suppose amongst large groups of people it is inevitable that control would come into play but it has been my experience during the Master’s visits to actually be physically pushed aside and told to move along by sevadars, told where to sit etc, you all know the story. Its almost like something comes over these people when they are being sevadars and behave in this aggressive way and I wonder if this is really necessary! This type of behaviour really put me off satsangs and satsangis and my friends and relatives also found it to be very rude and unusual behaviour, especially amongst a so-called spiritual group.

The remark by the wife about Brian, this is so typical of these people, every now and then their façade slips and their critical nasty shadow self shows, like when the satsangis come onto this site and show their nasty vicious side. It seems like just an act, all this pretence of humility and submission to the guru.

Howard also says there is something almost magical about Baba Ji. I would think that anyone with some degree of mental powers could fool many groups of people, we all know how many false gurus there are around. I remember Baba Ji saying “no-one even noticed me before 1990”. So it seems to me that mostly satsangis are projecting onto this person what they believe him to be. That’s a lot of power being given to one person. Anyone with a bit of charisma could be sitting in front of a large group of people absorbing this devotional charge of energy and reflecting it back to them. This is simply the power of the mind and belief systems.

I remember experiencing this power of devotion when sitting with a group of satsangis waiting for Baba Ji to appear and when they started to sing a shabd the power of this energy was incredibly uplifting. So it seems to me, after spending more than 40 years on this path, now that I am really looking at myself and how I have projected my own devotion and love onto someone I don’t even really know, and yes, have manifested some interesting experiences, but this is me, I am doing this, not some guru from afar. In some ways its been a very difficult experience to give up this strong belief system but I don’t regret following this path from a young age because I know I have benefited in many ways and this has been a very valuable learning process for me.

I lived in South Africa and I remember the love that the sangat had for Sam, myself included. Now I wish I could have met him as I am now, and probably seen him with more clarity and not how I wanted to perceive him. I still follow the four principles so all I am doing is emptying out everything I was taught and trying to experience life with a clearer consciousness.

So Howard, when you say about Baba Ji, “He has something wonderful I have not perceived in anyone else”, I know exactly what you mean because that is how I also “perceived” this person but is this all it is, our own perception?

those are insightful comments Jen, especially your last point about disciples imagining and projecting the so-called 'charm' and supposed exaltedness of their master. i totally agree with you. the same thing happens with many gurus, leaders, and celebrities. its all projected from the imagination of the followers. they want to deify the guru.

my question about Howard is that, if he recognizes that rssb is just another religion with the same hierachical power and money trips and elitism, and the master is not a gihf or even a really wise man, then why does Howard keep going back for more of the same? this thing about the current master having some unique and special quality compared to other gurus and sages is hardly the case imo. i have to wonder, just how many other more truly wise gurus and sages has Howard actually been around? because i for one had the complete opposite feeling and conclusion about this so-called "Beeji" character. i did not find any subtly unique or special quality. but like Jen says, some ordinary guy who steps into and inherits the position of being a sort of spiritual god figure and savior to hundreds of thousands of people, ends up getting a lot of supposed charm and charisma and spiritual hype projected onto his person. so i think Howard is mistaking that for spiritual wisdom and uniqueness and thus giving credit where it is not deserved.


Dear Jen & Tao, I'm happy to read your views.
Dear Brian, a million thanks again for hosting this site !

I am finding it extremely tough ( at the moment ) to question and partially shed some of my beliefs about RSSB. It has been building up for a few months now...

Whenever a ' questioning ' thought would surface in my mind, another thought from my ' belief system ' would instantly spring up, counter-check it, and swat it like a fly ! It was like my ' belief system ' was on an auto-control mode.

The thing I find completely strange is that once you're totally absorbed with RSSB, you stop seeing yourself as who you really are.

You get into a GROOVE where you begin to feel and believe that you are on the right path, you keep this ' target ' in your mind that you desperately need to achieve and you think that you have found the true purpose and meaning to life - all of which is very comforting, uplifting and superficially rewarding.

However, over a period of time, as I'm beginning to see it -
One tends to lose touch with oneself.

Sam initiated me in 1981 (is it 29 years already!) and I enjoyed his addresses at satsang. When he initiated me all those years ago he was an old man, onto his 3rd marriage and copping lots of criticism for that "failing". Does anyone know how old he was when he died? He must have been in his 90s or even nearly 100!

What struck me, though, was how similar these thoughts are to a traditional Christian (or other religious) reaction to a true believer's death. He is in a much better place; he is united with his beloved.

Perhaps this is true. I doubt that it is.

However delusional I may be tempted to conclude a path's followers - or even the path itself - I try not to be dismissive of assertions unless I have direct, rock-hard evidence that they're cuckoo. And I know "cuckoo" especially well just listening to my mind's constant chatter. Yet I often find myself rolling my eyes at certain Christian -- nowdays Islamic too -- beliefs and claims. But I think there's a kind of hubris in that.

Mystics and sincere practitioners of every faith have well have a piece of the truth. I suspect there's no limit to what's attainable following a rigorous discipline of awareness/ mindfulness. But I can't say I've emulated them at all.

Sam initiated me in 1973, and I have always felt that he, even though very privileged to have spent a lot of time in the Master's personal company, he never got drunk on his own position or ego, even though many of the Sangat looked up to him almost like a mini-master.
I believe his divorce and subsequent personal issues were just an illustration from the Master that he was no different to the rest of us.
Bon voyage, Sam: for you the worst is over.
see you at home again one day!
Much affection from Colin MacDonald

"I was informed about Sam's passing."
--As a Godman, wouldn't he inform himself?

"He lived a full and complete life."
--What are the guidlines of a full and complete life? I need to check the requirements, and compare to mine. I may get pissed if mine is half full.

"He is once again united with his beloved Master."
--So, there was a period of separation? From Charan Singh? Wasn't he united in his meditations? After all his years of meditations, surely he was united in that Sach Kand(sp?) place.

Roger asked, As a Godman,wouldn't he inform himself?

As long as these Godmans are on this planet in the physical form they behave like normal human beings.

What are the guidelines of a full and complete life?

To get initiation from a perfect living master and complete surrender to the master with love,of course medidation as well.

There was a period of separation? From Charan Singh? Wasn't he united in his meditations?

Sometimes yes,the seperation could be because of his karmas, anyway masters always work in mysterious ways which only the present living masters can understand.
If you want to understand all this, you will have to take initiation by the living master(as other people on this blog),work hard with love and fulll devotion and then only with the masters grace you will have answer to all your questions.

Juan, you are preaching again.

You know this is not a site for preaching sant mat. So why do you continue to do so? If you wish to merely share your own personal opinions, then you should make that clear. But even then, nobody likes to be preached at, no matter what you think or believe.

So why don't you just go attend an RS satsang if you desire to preach sant mat religious dogma? or perhaps go to the "radhasoamistudies" yahoo group.

Your tendency to use this site to preach sant mat dogma is rather annoying.

Preaching posted by Juan on February 06, 2010 at 02:24 PM:

"As long as these Godmans are on this planet in the physical form they behave like normal human beings."

"get initiation from a perfect living master and complete surrender to the master with love,of course medidation as well."

"because of his karmas"

"masters always work in mysterious ways which only the present living masters can understand."

"you will have to take initiation by the living master(as other people on this blog),work hard with love and fulll devotion"

"only with the masters grace"


Hi Juan !
May I politely request you to share you experiences with regard to RS meditation - Simran & Bhajan.
Have you crossed ' trikuti ' or have you seen the iridescent ' sach khand ' somewhere in the horizon ? I well understand that these are ' planes ' but according to the RS doctrine, they stress that the initiates have to ' reach ' there. Am I correct ?
Since your disposition comes across so convincing, I thought it would be informative to some of us to get a descriptive idea about these ' regions ' that many want to see.
Okay. Lets just talk about Level-I.
Kindly describe ' sahans dal kanwal ' translated - the thousand petalled lotus...
I am curious.
Thank you !

the thousand petal lotus - that sounds like one helluva a flower.

there seem to be many parallels to psychotropic drugs, since all these experiences have distorted light and sound, which seem all pervasive - i'm sure its phsycoligically induced delusions that can only be achieved after meditating very hard.

"Sam initiated me in 1973, and I have always felt that he, even though very privileged to have spent a lot of time in the Master's personal company, he never got drunk on his own position or ego, even though many of the Sangat looked up to him almost like a mini-master."

---Yes, but what meditation experiences did Sam have? In the 55 years of meditations, giving initiations and being a mini-master, what did he experience? So, tell me that. I'm not saying he didn't. I never knew the guy.

I remember when I first got initiated everyone was expecting inner magical experiences and tried hard to produce them. Now all I hear ' we will get them when we die ' just like every other religion. This is disturbing and is another similarity to an organized religion.

The imagery of becoming more child-like to open the "doors of perception" has always resonated with me. If I look at my consciousness, it's still a mess. My foibles - both inner and outer - are clearly the "elephant in the living room" blocking the exit door. How could there be a set timetable for achieving magical visions with this scenarioi? Without an enormous amount of effort to increase my openness/mindfulness/readiness and some evidence of progress, how could things ever change in the future? If someone promises all will be well at physical death, I'd disbelieve it too. If there's no internal transformation - even incremental - after tons of effort, how could I catapult into Nirvana/Heaven/SachKhand when I die...? Maybe then the problem is the practice and we're off-the-hook.

First of all you insensitive man,
you posted a privated letter that adressed the death of a family member, NOT IN ORDER TO FEEL SYMPATHY OR EMPHATHY FOR THE FAMILY,
But in order to find that threat which you could pull and accuse and smear the sender of the mail.
Great to find you what thirty years of meditation have done for you.

What business do you have commenting on this issue, on a prv letter, on someone else's grief? What would you have written?
Listen to something random before I literally abandon forever this site; like a a guy above i only enter it once and a while to see how elaborate you have made you critique. , A great master, a param sant, shits, pisses and picks his nose as much as you do. Pls delete this post after you read it.

Hi Alexi !
Why are some RS initiates so edgy and angry when they see a RS post they don't quite agree with ? Is it a sign of frustration ? Deprivation perhaps ?

Well, it seems like you are rather intolerant of someone else's opinion... Probably, more intolerant than an average person out there would be.

Quoting Huzur Maharaj Ji in one of his Q & A sessions -
" Who are we to judge ? "
That one statement is a ' satsang ' in itself !

I know many ' initiates ' who do not understand the basic tenets of Sant Mat, but are perfect advertisements for RSSB !

Cheers !

Alexi, Sam Busa's family released the letter to other people. I simply further released it after it was emailed to me. Complain to Sam Busa's family, not me.

No man,
you "did not [just] further released it".
You used it as a platform to comment against this man's master who he followed and adored throughout his life.
Personally I found it a beautiful comment which reflected this relationship. And it is beautiful regardless on your ideas of death, life or life after death.

"However" you wrote "to my mind what's better and more honest is to express one's sympathy and sorrow, and leave it at that". That is in your mind exactly! And what does your mind or thoughts have to do with the relationship between these two men. Is everything you say always correct and right?
You would express your sympathy? and Sorrow? Your Sorrow? Pls Brian, pls, give it a break. That is why you commented on Baba Ji's letter? So that you can say that you would have done it differently? And that it sounds Christian? What is christianity, show me the two billion people or more who practices it? The greek orthodox church? the evangelical- which evangelical exactly? The russians, the ethiopians? The indigenous peyote christian churches in peru and brazil? Who? Faith is faith??what does that mean anw? Get out of the US bubble a lit bit and realise that the web is being read from people all around. The page you are looking at is not in the US..let me refrain it...to locate the internet is difficult as locating the mind..
"If you feel like shit is because you yourself is the shit" Maulana Rumi

Besides, I asked you to delete my commend.

"Complain to Sam Busa's family, not me." What??? I loved it that they released the letter. U missed my point and you are probably not really picking up this point.

Let me rephrase it to you so that you, my friend,Brian can understand better,

You said that you would have expressed your sympathy, sorrow and leave it there....after you bashed the letter from Gurinder. This is your expression of sympathy and sorrow.... The post, the replies, the tension between the words, the argument, your comments, are your obituary for this man. You are not expressing you "Sympathy??" and "Sorrow?" like that. Your expressing other stuff but not those.

Your comments,which tried to rip Baba ji's reply from essence, was your opportunity to "Honestly" express your "sympathy and sorrow" but you missed your chance. Do you see what I mean? Do you do what you say and say what you do?? While you are writting what you would write, you are writting....well you get it. Look at what I am doing right now. Look at what I am writting right now. Split, you think I am angry? Not at all actually. My mood is quite alright actually. Positive vibrations from this Rastafari satsangi Greek Cypriot pagan Christian Muslim Jew Buddist Voodooist atheist. But is this, what I am writting beautiful? I try 'Many splits' I sincerely try to do my best, to make as beautuful and loving as I can.

Look Brian, what I am trying to get across here is that you could have just commented,,,
".....I would also like to express my sympathy and sorrow for this man...which I knew.. (did you know him btw?? and if u did, tell us a little bit about him)... Instead you put his death in the personal existentialist arena that you call "my mind"

Let me put it this way. Delete you comments, sit down, and write something beautiful about this man. If you didnt find his life beautiful then dont f****** comment. (For a good overview what the F**** is google OSHO Fu*k) But dont tell me "I would have done it this way" while your way is..... well, read your obituary again.

You Would, you WOUULD, Have Expressed your Sorrow?? This is sant mat man, this is not high school. We swim in death, give us death, DEATH DEATH from Babylon, yes yes,,,,Sant mat wants you to look at death in the eyes and Kill it. This is not kindergarden man. This is sant mat. Life? Life? This thing that you call life, sant man calls death. You think the inner moon is an abstract idea? You think the shabd is unreal?

Time alone,
ooooooh time will tell,
You think your in heaven but your living in hell" google video marley. Nice song.

Faith is Faith?
Here is a poem on faith my brother, cause you are my brother either you like it or not,

Its by Kabir,
--------------------------------------------

Where do you search me?
I am with you
Not in pilgrimage, nor in icons
Neither in solitudes
Not in temples, nor in mosques
Neither in Kaba nor in Kailash


I am with you O man
I am with you
Not in prayers, nor in meditation
Neither in fasting
Not in yogic exercises
Neither in renunciation
Neither in the vital force nor in the body


Not even in the ethereal space
Neither in the womb of Nature
Not in the breath of the breath
Seek earnestly and discover
In but a moment of search
Says Kabir, Listen with care
Where your faith is, I am there.


With this poem in mind,
Here is a re-representation
of the Baba Ji's words to the Busa family

Dear friends,

I was informed about Sam's passing. Rest assured Sam is in a much better place now, free from all suffering and concerns. His guidance and help which he gave tirelessly to the sangat in South Africa for so many years will be greatly missed. He lived a full and complete life. He is once again united with his beloved Master. Though you will all miss his presence, his friends and family should rejoice in the knowledge that his was a life well spent and that he is now enjoying the fruits of his lifetime of devotion and service.

With love and affection,
G S Dhillon

I would still prefer if you delete this and my previous two comments

Alexi, I don't see what you're so disturbed about. Gurinder Singh has some thoughts about Sam Busa's death. He sends a message to Busa's family. The family wants other people to see the message, so they share it with others.

The other people have a thought, "I'd like to share the message further." That's my thought also when I see the message. I then have a reaction to the message, just as Gurinder Singh had a reaction to Busa's death, and Busa's family had a reaction to getting a message from the guru.

Everybody is simply sharing their thoughts and feelings, and reacting to other people's thoughts and feelings. You're doing the same thing. A post from me leads to several comments from you.

That's fine. This is what life is: acting and reacting, communicating, sharing ideas. Where is the problem?

Lastly, leaving another long insulting comment after saying you wanted the first long insulting comment deleted sends a mixed message. I'll leave your comments up for a while, since you obviously enjoy hearing the sound of your own offended voice.

heh
good answer

You need to get a grip Alexi. You are angry and confused, and your spiritual trip is a mixed-up mess.

Who do you think you are to come onto someone else's blog and start telling them what to do?

Brian said what he wanted to say about the reps death and about the letter from the RS master... and Brian's comments were quote sensible and meaningful. And Brian can say whatever he wants to say.

Your comments, on the other hand, are incredibly uptight, irrational and rather schizo. You also seem to have a problem with your identity.

You need to relax and chill out. If you wanted to say something good about the guy who died, or about the RS master and his letter, then you should have done that. But angry griping and mixed-up nonsensical babbling about Brian's commentary and perspective on the letter, is really rather stupid, and it shows just how immature you are.


I met Sam Busa once a long time ago. He seemed pleasant enough, but I never understood why people were all ga-ga over him and put him on a pedestal.

Maybe it's because since he had a personal relationship with Charan people thought he must be special.

There's definitely a priveledged class in RSSB.

I agree. It is fairly typical for people who belong to guru-cults to revere those who are closer associates of the guru or the leader.

This is a common trait whenever there is a hierarchy, and there is definitely a hieracrchy and a priviledged class in the RSSB. Anyone who has ever been to the Dera could see that.

People go "ga-ga" over the guru because they don't know their own self-worth and because they mistakenly think that the guru is somehow special, extrordinary, and spiritually superior, and that they themselves are just ordinary or inferior.

But the truth of the matter is that everyone is ordinary, and everyone is also unique. So it is foolish and unintelligent to worship other people, regardless of whether it is a so-called mystic master or a "mini master".


Hi Alexi !

Your first comment said -
' ... before I abandon this site forever ... '
' ... I only enter this site once in a while ... '

01. This site obviously draws you back.
02. You are seriously perturbed by something.

Calm down. Try and recognize the fact that you would want to engage in a mini-debate. No harm ! That is the whole point of this blog. I do not want to criticize you or your faith. But I have my reservations about RS and their teachings. This is a platform for open discussion, that is all, and that is all we're doing.

I cannot help noticing that on almost all the RS posts on Brian's blog, people who are hardline RS believers have this ultra-strong resistance to anything that is said against RS.

Why can't they be defensive without being angry ? Why can't they quote something nice from a book ? Why can't they simply be more open to someone else's opinion ? Why can't they accept that others may have questions they want to explore ? Why is everything here such a trigger to their bent-up emotion ?

I do not know you. But I can sense how you feel, cause I have felt like that before. The fact is that these posts do make you question your faith - if it was solid, this blog will not disturb you. And if it was not blind, you will have more to share.

There are no answers to many things about RS and RSSB. I'm just waiting for the blogger who'll come around and say... " I have faith. I have blind faith. But that's just the way I like it... "

What gets to me is the reaction that the RS's have ! And that reaction comes across like a buried frustration.

Alexi, I'm sure you're enjoying your life, in your own way.

Just try and enjoy it a little bit more, to the point where you do not feel the need to react like this.

Respects.

juan, you are preaching again.

You know this is not a site for preaching sant mat. So why do you continue to do so? If you wish to merely share your own personal opinions, then you should make that clear. But even then, nobody likes to be preached at, no matter what you think or believe.

So why don't you just go attend an RS satsang if you desire to preach sant mat religious dogma? or perhaps go to the "radhasoamistudies" yahoo group.

Your tendency to use this site to preach sant mat dogma is rather annoying.

Hm, "preaching" usually connotes some tiresome, patronizing, proselytizing, long-winded diatribe. I didn't discern that at all in Juan's response. His answers were short and on-point as far as I could see. Perhaps,
the "dogma-meter" flared with the last question/answer:

There was a period of separation? From Charan Singh? Wasn't he united in his meditations?

Sometimes yes,the seperation could be because of his karmas, anyway masters always work in mysterious ways which only the present living masters can understand.
If you want to understand all this, you will have to take initiation by the living master(as other people on this blog),work hard with love and fulll devotion and then only with the masters grace you will have answer to all your questions.

Assuming the question was genuine and not just a rhetorical dart, a two-sentence response doesn't seem too excessive. After all, once anyone hears "...mysterious ways only the present living masters can understand", they might as well know the rest of the "inner sanctum secrets" such as RS faith in initiation, love, devotion, and grace. Whew.. at least it was only a sentence. Anyway, it wouldn't be any fun bashing someone who doesn't answer back...

Charles DeRykus,
fyi, "preaching" doesn't always have to take the form of a "tiresome, patronizing, proselytizing, long-winded diatribe".

its not about how log or short it is. its about the way its presented. and in this case it was not presented as just a mere one opinion among others... but rather in an authoritarian manner as the one and only only truth. that is what makes it sound preachy and dogmatic.


FYI Alexi,
This letter of Gurinder singh has been forwarded by all the satsangis in last few days. My close (satsangi) relatives' inbox is full of this forwarded message sent by every possible satsangi he knows! Off course they have been discussing it like Brian but using it for reinforcing their beliefs about after life and how Master is going to come and take over their karmas !

Personally to me, it looks like a publicity stunt by Dera :) Every once in a while, they try to make the people more confused. I remember very clearly in the last satsang in Petaluma, Gurinder Singh clearly said that its not true that master will come at the time of death. Dera corp. must have realized that this might reduce the effect of cult. There was an urgent need of filling the cult belief again!! Here they go again, forwarding a letter supposedly written by him to every other satsangi. Do you think cultic satsangis who always keep hush hush on everything, would have forwarded it without permission from Dera. they must have got special orders to forward it ...lol

I have been to one satsang in the past 17 years, so I am an outsider now and don't really know the current happenings with RSSB. I get a few tidbits from a couple of old satsangi friends but that's about it. One of them reads this blog but rarely chimes in. His name is Ben Dark. Hi Ben!!

One thing that I continually get wind of is how Gurinder is changing things about the teachings as I learned them in Charan's day.

I don't care to take the time now to cite examples except for what Sapient said above: "...Gurinder Singh clearly said that its not true that master will come at the time of death."

This was always presented as a guarantee to any faithful satsangi who stayed within the four vows. Now Gurinder says its not true?

RSSB teaches that perfect masters have the same teachings to offer throughout the ages. Now Gurinder is changing the teachings or saying some of them aren't true. This would bother me a lot if I was invested in this religio-cult.

Is he saying his master, Charan, was wrong? What does that make Gurinder..the appointee of an imperfect master? Then could it be Gurinder is imperfect?

I don't know how you satsangis buy into this path, but I still wish you well.

Dear Tucson,
I would be really kind of you to give me some more information about how things have changed with regard to the teachings. It will help those of us who are unshackling our RS belief system.

I have clear memories ( as a child ) of Huzur Maharaj Ji and Dera - as it was back then. Much has changed now. The Sangat ( faithful ) have multiplied by the millions. The charitable eye camps have been shut down. When I asked a RS representative about the closure of the eye camps, his reply was ' We must understand that we are a spiritual organization, not a charitable one... '

The sad thing is that in a country like India, so much is needed to raise the basic standards of millions. An organization like RSSB could do so much for the same impoverished lot that are a part of their own community.

Right before Satsang commences, RSSB is now showing short films ( that are developed in-house ) about organ donation. In my opinion, a message like this could be misleading for the multitudes of uneducated, naive villagers. A great percentage of those who are a part of the congregation present are in need of better nutrition and healthcare themselves !

Just thought of sharing this information and my views on the same.
Have a wonderful day !

Many Splits,

One thing a reliable source told me Gurinder said which differs greatly from former masters is that the inner regions are symbolic and not actual places. This is definitely a departure from any RSSB teachings I have read or heard and changes everything if you think about it.

Even Faqir Chand, a sant mat heretic guru of sorts who said he was unaware of his astral image within his disciples, seemed to support the factual existence of inner regions.

Personally, Gurinder's view about inner regions makes sense to me but it is certainly not traditional Sant Mat.

I have heard a number of similar departures from old Sant Mat that Gurinder reportedly said which I don't have time to go into, but they are significant. To a true believer this would be disconcerting, I would think. Which is true? The old? The new? Neither? Who is this Gurinder? A master? A fraud?

Then there is the petty issue of rennet in cheese. Back in my sant mat days any old cheese was "kosher" in the Sant Mat diet. Charan used to say we have to live in this world and can't be too fanatical about food. Sounded sensible to me, but Charan was against mayonnaise which I think is off the deep end and not "living in this world."

Gurinder has banned eating cheese made with rennet. What was OK with Charan is now a no-no with Gurinder.

There is something about Gurinder's vibe that leaves me uneasy to say the least. I have only seen him once and was completely turned off. It was a major turning point for me. It was like a switch was turned on and I saw the RSSB movement for what it was. All these gullible people chasing their imagination about who this guru figure is supposed to be without any evidence at all. Zero.

That was in 1991 and I steadily withdrew from Sant Mat starting that day.

Do what you like satsangis, but imo Sant Mat is a deception. Why not be a Christian? Both require blind faith. At least you can eat and drink what you like in christianity and you don't have to meditate for hours every day. A few prayers will suffice and occasional church on Sunday. Much easier, and it comes with the same guarantee, heaven (sach khand). You don't even have to wait for up to four lifetimes to get there.

Take it from me. Jesus has the better deal and I don't even believe in him.

Dear Tucson,
I appreciate your time.

I had heard the ' no-no ' about certain varieties of cheese from a point of view to completely avoid them, and I was quite shocked about the whole issue. ( I did of course continue eating my parmesano and pecorino... ) Glad to learn that Maharaj Charan Singh was less of a hard-liner in this regard.

One day I came across an ' initiate ' carrying an expensive exotic skin bag ! Wow. No pizza with rennet, but exotic leather is okay... ( ? )

I've read many of your comments on other RS posts as well, thanks for sharing ! They help me validate how I feel about RSSB now.

I'm just beginning to empty out all that I learnt on an obviously dogmatic path.

Respects.

I'm going to give my opinion simple and direct.

RSSB is a mind control cult business. Period.

It is less overt than some cults on the surface but very insidious once it is bought into. It enslaves people's lives and traps them in a coccoon of deception.

The master is not a magic man. The master's charisma is your own imagination reflected back to you. It is 'you' who is the magic one. The Wonder is what you already are, not the dreamed figure on the dais.

The master is not a magic man. The master's charisma is your own imagination reflected back to you. It is 'you' who is the magic one. The Wonder is what you already are, not the dreamed figure on the dais.

Ironically, I think all mystical paths would subscribe to those beliefs. Mysticism insists on validating beliefs and faith with inner experience. The real deceptiveness is that we generally want to critique others' beliefs and faith without any real knowledge. We even deceive ourselves by following some path and then complaining because there was no magic after years of "trying". I think everyone's guilty of it sometime or other. We're diletantes who would be kings.

...and we critique others' critiques without any real knowledge also. That's OK. It's only a blog and we're just good 'ol boys havin' fun. And in the end isn't the diletante really a king and the king a diletante?


And in the end isn't the diletante really a king and the king a diletante?

Right on.

... just good 'ol boys havin' fun

Damn... there goes the neighborhood.

Tucson, I totally agree with your reply to my comment -
' RSSB is a mind control cult business... '

I know I'd be up against many ' satsangis ' if I'd announce my departure, so I've decided to discreetly disconnected myself.

In time to come, I think I would share my thoughts with a few people who believe in RS and be far more open about how I feel.

I will also reveal my identity instead of hiding behind ' Many Splits '.

Respects... :)

Once upon a time a captain was in a procession riding on an elephant before a king.

"Oh, it is the captain, but where is he?", asked the king.

"There, on the elephant," said a nearby diletante.

"You say the captain is on the elephant. Yes, I see the two," said the king, "but which is the captain and which is the elephant?"

"Huh?" said the diletante. "You see the two but you can't see that it is the captain above riding on the elephant below?"

The king said, "But you said 'above' and 'below'. What do they mean?"

The diletante became impatient. "Look sir, you can see the captain and the elephant, one above and the other below. Yet you want to know what is meant by 'above' and 'below'? If words are so incomprehensible to you, bend forward if you don't mind and I will show you what I mean." (Don't worry folks this is not a prison story.)

The king did as he was asked and the diletante got on his shoulders and said, "Now do you understand? I am above as the captain and you are below as the elephant."

"No, not yet," was the king's reply. "You say you are above like the captain, and I am below like the elephant. The 'captain', the 'elephant', 'above', 'below', so far it is clear. But please tell me what you mean by I and you?"

When the diletante was confronted all of a sudden with the mighty problem of defining the 'you' apart from the 'I', light dawned upon his mind. He fell at the king's feet and thanked him profusely for showing him the true Being of the Self.

Now do you see 'who' the king and the diletante are?

Nice story Tuscon,

All these critiques of Santmat fall short in two aspects:

First it implies a discourse whereby the disciple still clings on to the physical form of the guru; his personality, idiosyncrasies and his attitude.

Second: It emphasises, while already in the discourse above, what he or she perceives as imperfections within the guru and system.

The guru, is like your math teacher. He teaches you how to add and subtract, do algebra, differentiation and further differentiation, but it is up to the student to solve problems using math language. The guru initiates you, because you requested it, as fully conscious individuals. The mantra "I was bewitched" by sant mat at the time implies that you could also be 'bewitched" at this time. No. Take responsibilities for your actions and if you come to consider yourselves in the Present as mature agents, then it goes without saying that your interaction within the network and philosophy of sant mat contributed to this, lets say, present lucidity, that you claim to have. Don't dismiss sant mat like an aborted foetus. Embrace it as you embrace a path that brought you, where you are now.
Besides.
The emphasis is on meditation and listening to the sound current, which the mystics of age have called Nam, Shabd, Logos, Tao. There are many methods of meditation; Vipassana, Kriya, Ashtanga, Hatha, Mantra yoga etc.
The basic difference between these and sant mat is that Sant mat differentiates between Varanatmak and Dhunyatmak. This you accept initially on faith. Not so much with a pinch of salt, but with pure faith. The first as you all should now, is acc. to santmat all the exoteric sounds that come into existence and go out of existence; a miracle of miracles if you think about it. A leaf playing against the wind or the string of the guitar being strung. Dhunyatmak sant mat is the unborn, un-creaded sound. It just exists without 'two' surfaces 'encountering' each other 'within' space. It just exists and because it does 'just exists', it exists literally everywhere. We are swimming in this Dhunyatmak vibration and energy. This, at the beginning you accept on faith, and you accept on faith that another man can open your inner capacities to come in contact with it.

After that is meditation. And meditation is difficult. Now forget about at the master. This is just the individual soul on its own, discovering its own. Everyone did the same; the buddhas, the soami jis, the charan sings, the ramanas, the jesus's, the kabirs, the sufists, the shamans, the frogs as they are sitting silent over the old pond. You want to prove me Sant mat wrong. Sit down for three hours of proper focused and loving meditation for the inner master, without 'counting minutes backwards' or 'counting errands that need to be attended afterwards".

Now sant mat says to do simran in order to concentrate the mind, but the words themselves are just the names of the regions as they were named by the mystics of the present. They could be five, they could be seven, they could be "Los Angeles, Moscow, Timbaktu, Patagonia, Church of the Churchless, Kathmandu -Los Angelaes, Moscow, Timbaktu, Patagonia, Church of the Churchless, Kathmandu". Each inner region is named after its ruler, like Saudi Arabia, or Washington, or Hinesight. The first ruler, region, vibrational level, in sant mat, is the Flame. This is known as this is in the books not only of sant mat but all over the world. Its the Flame.

Quoting:
"No word has any intrinsic meaning; it means whatever it is meant to convey by the writer or the speaker. Words are not conscious or living entities. It is we who infuse life into them and give them meaning and significance. It is to our past association that we understand words uttered by other people. Meditating on words cannot elucidate their import, meditating on a word cannot throw light on its implication and significance. In fact meditating on a word in the sense of true meditation and not mere thinking has no meaning; it is absurd and futile....

....The practices of Zikar which Hindi called Simran 'i.e' repetition of a holy name leads us to experience a sort of mystic transport, which opens to us mysteries hidden and reveals heavenly things, which the intellect cannot know...[..]..But it is still varanatmak. The internal happiness experienced in these is neither deep or constant. It comes like the flashes of lightning between indifferent moments. These practices are our bullock carts; they stop within the creation of subtle matter" Mysticism II

Sant mat practices surat shabd yoga and surat shabd yoga practices sant mat. Now, you think the Guru of this branch of Sant mat is fake. Fine. I have absolutely no problem with this. I cannot comment anyway. The master himself says that he could indeed be fake, and soami ji himself says "Do not believe your guru until you see". Fine I do not believe the guru. How can I? Will I give my money? No. My time of attention? Yes. Initially on Faith. After faith, you do not believe that your are sitting on a chair,and you dont believe that chair exits. The chair exists. And the captain is on the elephant and the elephant is on the captain. It is sad though that the captain would eat his elephant if he was not a vegetarian. Now that is just me. Cause I read in the past tuscon himself saying that he would eat his elephant on the cunning assumption that he and the elephant are one in any case,,,So who is eating who? You smart smart man. All these are irrelevant anw.Eat and think whatever you want.

But the shabd, excuse me, excuse me....The shabd,,, be very careful, do not dismiss the shabd 'just like that'. Sand mat does not practice Simran...the Simran is dropped when shabd is heard. Sant mat emphasises sound listening, no breath, no words, no thoughts, no empty and full spaces, no concepts. I sound apologetic of sant mat? Get real, apologise for what and for whom?

The teachings of sant mat are the most straighforward and simple teachings from all the teachings on the planet. Shabd yoga is simple, sweet and doable. So if you want to talk about sanmat lets talk about the practice. The practice...Lets talk about the practice, nots its social network within this F****ed up planet, but lets talk about practice...What is the practice...How many hours, which hours are the best, what food is best, what thoughts is best. 'Talking' about sant mat and not. about the practice of meditation of sant mat.., is talking about sant mat in context of what a community is, what ideology is, what power relations are, what social network are, what culture is, what translocated identities imply, colonialism, hegemony, imperialism, modernity, globalisation, conflict, history, histories, narratives, rituals, culture, cultures, languages, sustainability, ecology, anthropology, sociology, philosophy, nanotechnology,cults, religions, engineering, space explorations, aliens, semantics, authenticity, hermeneutics, politics, teleologies, economics, kinships,...Sant mat, as an unbounded and undefined community and organisation is fully entangled without all these concepts,,,So what are you trying to do? Locate where santmat is placed within all these con-currently manifesting discourses? Or are you trying to de-entangle it from all these webs? And place it where? What are you trying to describe and prove...against what?

So lets talk about practice,, cause if you dont talk about practice you must be talking with respect to all the aforementioned jargon.And the jargon is like as ambiguous as purple reflections in water that are formed by the green leaves and the orange fruits above, against the sunset...and which can be observed only for a moment.

The reason that I begun wriiting on this post is because the webmaster,Brian, used the letter by the master to the disciple's family to critique the master, calling him basically dishonest, that he sounds like a christian minister, and that he (Brian) would have done it differently while what he ended doing is exactly the opposite of what he WWould have done. In the ideal world.
So you think of the beas Guru is dishonest. I dont have a problem with that. You can use a million other examples to prove or express yourself without entangling in your argument the family who is experiencing the loss of a dear one. I may be wrong in critiquing you for this, I wont deny. Perhaps I shouldnt have.
But, to return to basics, what matters the most is the practice of the sound current and not he global social and power related networks within sant mat (as a meditation school/organisation/cult) l is entangle with. While you can get somewhere with the Dhyan, with the second you only become a social critique and a blubbering internet new age hippie philosopher.

"Man is an animal suspended in webs of significance which he himself has sprung. I take culture to be those webs" Clifford Geertz

Peace out brothers and sisters,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


"Close your eyes, your ears and your mouth and listen to the Anhad shabad like the sound of 'Jhinga' " -Kabir


Alexis

Tucson - Great story ! Read it twice !

Alexi - Thanks for quoting from ' Mysticism II ' but please shed some light about your own mystical experiences. You sound totally confused !

Alexi,

"Each inner region is named after its ruler, like Saudi Arabia, or Washington, or Hinesight. The first ruler, region, vibrational level, in sant mat, is the Flame. This is known as this is in the books not only of sant mat but all over the world. Its the Flame."

--The first name of the 5 in simran is Flame? Thought it was that jotnarigen (sp?) word. Thought the 5 words were to be kept secret, so why are they in the books all over the world?


"blubbering internet new age hippie philosopher"

---Interesting job title. Is the pay good?

Hi Alexi,
Dont believe your thoughts.Here have a laugh!
- EXERCISE FOR PEOPLE OVER 40.


(You can use it even if you aren't "there" yet!)

Begin by standing on a comfortable surface, where you have plenty of room at each side. With a 5-lb potato bag in each hand, extend your arms straight out from your sides and hold them there as long as you can. Try to reach a full minute, and then relax.

Each day you'll find that you can hold this position for just a bit longer. After a couple of weeks, move up to 10-lb potato bags. Then try 50-lb potato bags and then eventually try to get to where you can lift a 100-lb potato bag in each hand and hold your arms straight for more than a full minute. (I'm at this level.)

After you feel confident at that level, put a potato in each bag

All the best
Obed

Alexi, have you ever thought about taking your own advice -- as you ended your lengthy comment with:

"Close your eyes, your ears and your mouth and listen to the Anhad shabad like the sound of 'Jhinga' " -Kabir

I wonder whether, if Kabir had been alive in the age of the Internet, he would have added "your fingers that type preachy blog comments" to the list of things that should be closed.

But, hey, I don't expect you to practice what you preach. Preaching is what true believers do. They can't help themselves. Nor can non-preachers. We're all simply doing what we feel compelled to do.

Lastly, is "blubbering internet new age hippie philosopher" supposed to be derogatory? I think it sounds cool, something I'd aspire to. Hope you're referring to me here, and not someone else. Is it OK if I use those words on my resume? (in case I decide to re-enter the work force and apply for a job as a greeter at Wal-Mart)

yeah man go ahead
use it as you like
It wasnt referring to you in particular to be honest, you were there in my thoughts when I was thinking it offcourse, but it was not being directed to you,in particular. It was abstract. It was referring to me, you, her and to whoever else identifies with it. George Carlin would be one that I would think fits the role and I love George Carlin.

No I don't practice what i preach, cause I did not preach. I quoted.
Cause like i said, if we are to talk about sant mat we should talk about he practice of san mat and be very careful not critique within and across the multiple and contested discourses that it is entangled in. Its not that is not fair. It is futile. Its like talking politics in the tavern. Which might be exactly what this blog/place is. Which I like. Cause if it is a tavern and since we are all here obviously seekers of something, (and please do not tell me of what and certainly dont quote from the buddha or the tao teh ching) then we should feel comfortable in talking and conversating as if it is a church of the churchless tavern. Like an Agora where you had the stoics battling it out with the cynics.

You call me confused because I said "While you can get somewhere with the Dhyan, with the Varnatamak analysis you only become a social critique and a blubbering internet new age hippie philosopher."

And then you become offended... Oh come on. Chill. Its a discussion.Its a discussion. Enough with the guilt trips and the freudianisms. This blog is called Church of the Churchless. I think the only guy who is in the tavern ambience is Stephen S. Fine. I was only wondering if the same thing can work with other type of tubers and roots. Does the colour of the chair matter? The lighting of the room? How will I put potatoes in each bag if I am holding bags in each hand. Please elaborate.

Peace out brothers and sisters,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

…seriousness burdens us with hopeless situations, but laughter lifts us above them and delivers us from them. Laughter does not encumber man, it liberates him….[while] everything that is truly great must include an element of laughter.” Bakhtin

Yep, sometimes we quote, sometimes we preach and sometimes “its like talking politics in the tavern” and “since we are all here obviously seekers of something, (and please do not tell me of what and certainly dont quote from the buddha or the tao teh ching)”...

… oops hang on, now we are being restricted on what we can discuss? Fair game Alexi, it can be tough here in blog world but here at least we can have the freedom (hopefully) to state our opinions and yeh, quote and preach a bit too, but then like you say “it’s a discussion” and also I would say just a blog.

Hi Alexi !
Thanks for the quote, good one -

'' Seriousness burdens us with hopeless situations, but laughter lifts us above them and delivers us from them. Laughter does not encumber man, it liberates him, while everything that is truly great must include an element of laughter. ''

You quoted from ' Mysticism II ' and talked about some serious stuff in your previous comment and then ended the next one with the quote above. Just wondering now, how does everything connect ? But then that's the whole point ! Nothing in the RS - Sant Mat literature connects. When you join the dots there is no picture, it depends on what one wants to see.

Dear Many Splits,
Whether things need to connect or need to make sense to a person I personaly think depends on
how a person chooses in life.I nearly always make
decisions by asking myself "does it feel right?".
Logic and reason are not my strong points.
Funny enough being like this many of my life choices have turned out well for me.
Be Well
Stephen S Fine

Dear Stephen, very good point indeed !

I was making a statement from the standpoint of RS Sant Mat calling itself a SCIENCE, so logically, there should be some provable research or evidence of what is written in the books.

For many months I was confused and RS / RSSB was not ' feeling right ' and eventually I withdrew.

Respects.


Dear Blogger Brian,
You wrote,
"I happen to enjoy writing, both as a creative act and as a productive activity. Ever since I was a young kid I've enjoyed writing, inheriting/learning this predilection from my literary mother and father."

You are true to it and to pursue this passion, you can put anything at stake. You have spent 35 years in RSSB and Gurinder's words do not look different from those of politician.

with regards,

It's only a blog and we're just good 'ol boys havin' fun. And in the end isn't the diletante really a king and the king a diletante?

Yes, someone could argue that king and diletante are ultimately the same. But, for most of us, it's a beautiful concept only. We have no idea who/what we are, where we came from, who's king or diletante... We're "children crying in the night with no language but a cry". Maybe some of the "good ole boys havin' fun" can add some enlightenment. We've all seen them staggering from the taverns. They swear and shout great ideas ...

Here they rail against dogmatism even while drowning in their own. They utter mysticism is nothing but mind-control (even with unintended irony). It's deceptive, cult-ish, etc. But they come across stridently to me. I'd wager they've stopped having fun as well.


Anytime I feel compelled to attack a path without real inner insight, I know I've lost my way.

And, I hope none of this comes across as dogmatic or hurtful.

Science is a result, Many splits, which an be demonstrated repeatedly. Sant Mat is a science, but one that can only be shown to the practitioner. Sorry if it is disappointing in that way. -Robert Wahler
www.saviors-robertwahler.com

Robert Wahler, if sant mat is really a science as you say it is, then it must necessarily show results for more than "only the practioner". sant mat is not a science if it "can only be shown to the practitioner".

please educate yourself as to the requirements and demands of real science. and stop calling sant mat a science when it is clearly not a science.


Robert,

What would be an example of a "shown" experienced by a particular practitioner? Could you write something about one? I'm not finding fault with you.


Robert,

Sant Mat is "marketed" in the West as "Science of the Soul" which is supposed to give it the appearance of having an advantage over faith-based religions ostensibly because the Goal is attainable in this life if certain instructions are followed. However, in practice there is no objective way to verify the possibility of the achievement of the goal or any evidence of its existence even in the case of the "Master" scientist. Is the master a master? How do you know?

This is certainly not any sort of "science" as the term is defined in the english language. At best it could be called "Theory of the Soul", a theory that by all evidence offered exists only as an idea with none of its supporting tenets available as a basis for the possibility of its validity.

Therefore, Sant Mat (RSSB) is simply another faith based religion with the master serving as "Pope".

Would you jump from a cliff if some stranger told you he could give you the ability to fly after he initiated you? Wouldn't you want to know that at least he could fly before trying it yourself?

Believe if you wish.

Robert,

From your website,

"The author, Robert Wahler, is a life-long follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ and is a practitioner of Surat Shabd Bhakti Yoga. He maintains a home in the Bay Area of central California and a farm on the Big Island of Hawaii."

---The follower and practitioner titles are going to present limitations. That said, maintaining a home and farm sounds interesting. Write something about a farm on the Big Island.

Robert, there is no evidence of RS being a science.
tAo and Tucson have made the point clear.

many splits you seem to crawl up others back sides on here who you deem to be authorities on subjects they most certainly are not.


I'd suggest you find out for yourself whether RS is in fact a science or not, because as at this juncture you simply don't have half a clue, as do neither these fools who you deem to be fake authorities on such matters.

hey neither... who made you a judge and an authority on whether or not others are authorities??

how do you know others are not?? and how do you know that others are "fake"?? and how do you know others are "fools"?? who mde you an authority??

maybe you are the fake and the fool. maybe you are full of crap. it sure sounds like it. there is no science in RS. its a premise based on faith and belief.

any nut can make bold claims. but what have you got to show?? can you prove others are wrong?? can you prove that RS is a science?? if you can, then lets see it. otherwise, shut up.


Neither... I'm in total agreement with a few people on this blog, so you can call that whatever you want. They articulate exactly what I have come to realize, and I have no qualms in expressing that.

I have a little more than half a clue about RS.
You know nothing about me or my RS experiences, so you are no one to judge.

Just the way you are suggesting me to think for myself, I wish that the RS Guru would encourage the same with his followers.

hi for the first time in my life i spent a few moments reading your words.unless you are able to get behind the mind and withdraw from the body you will continue to talk talk talk. i know there is something else,i went there, you obviously have not.so whats left for you is talk..there is a saying.......verbal garbage....

bernard, thanks for talking on this blog, in words, that I shouldn't be talking on this blog, in words.

Do you see anything strange about your comment, any hypocrisy, any failure to look within yourself and see whether you might not be practicing what you're preaching?

I don't feel that communicating with my fellow human beings is "verbal garbage." I'm sorry that you do.

bernard, where is this mind? where is it located?

if you don't know where it is is located, or even if it exists, then how could you "get behind the mind"??

why should anyone "withdraw from the body"?? and what/where is the something that would "withdraw"?? in your entire you have never withdrawn from the body. even while resting in sleep, your body is still alive. you are never out out of your body. and moreover, there is nothing within the body which could withdraw or depart out of the body. you ARE the body (which incleds the brain). so there is no separate 'you' which can withdraw from the body. your existence is your body and brain. without that, there is no you.

You say: "i know there is something else,i went there". how do you know that? what is the "something else"?? you say that you "went there". so then where did you go?? and where is "there"??

you complain about "talk", but you yourself offer little if any explanation for your own "talk" - your own written statements, comments and claims. so then who is really the one with the "verbal garbage"?? if all talk is nothing more than "verbal garbarge", then your comments are "verbal garbage" as well. implying that yours is not, well thats blatant hypocrisy on your part.

so your comment is also just "talk". that's what a blog comment forum consists of - namely, talking in the form of written comments and dialog.

you chose to post a written comment here, so than how is it that your comments are any different than anyone else's comments??

you talk, and others talk. so you are just talking like everyone else. do you think that you are somehow different or unique?? no, you're not. your comments are just "talk" as well.

thats what we do here... talk. so grow up and join the discussion (whatever you may believe), or go elsewhere. saying that the blog author's or other people's comments are "verbal garbage" must necessarily include your own comments as well. if all talking is verbal garbage, then your comments are verbal garbage too.

attacking and belittling other people's comments without providing any substantial evidence in favor of your own beliefs and claims, is just plain ole stupid and lame.

so instead of acting like yet another angry dogmatic believer, just show us what you got. we are open to considering anything that is reasonable and valid.


everyone here is born with half knowledge and will die with half knowledge.
May be perhaps with NO Knowledge.
keep on wasting time.
Its a blog for losers.
it should be re named as church of losers.

Mia, I'm curious: who do you think does die with full knowledge?

Scientists? Christians? Muslims? Buddhists? Hindus? Baseball players? Ballet dancers? Taoists? Prostitutes?

Who? I'm assuming you know who has the FULL knowledge, and who doesn't. Is it you? If so, what is that knowledge that you know, and that people who visit this blog don't?

Except...oops, you visit this blog. So you're part of "everyone here." Welcome to the half/no knowledge club.

blogger brain there's no point in sharing much here,as you guys rather than listening to any other rather keep on finding alternative views for the comments posted here,especially about rssb,
why you all have been habitat raising fingers on any other path,which is actually doing good,
ok i understand you guys haven't benefited from it,but that doesn't mean that there was any problem with the path,
ofcourse you might be a problem,even being an author of the book of rssb,still what you are doing here in blog is a point raised at your character.

and i m not talking about the knowledge as a whole,i m just talking about your knowledge about rssb,

see ur spending duration in rssb for 30years and later on as you haven't beeen benefited from the path neither anything happen neither you had any experience as said in santmat teachings,doesn't mean that the path was in question.

so when you guys dont have complete knowledge about rssb why you people keep on spreading incorrect messages,
what will you guys gain from it?


you guys have no idea about the teachings and life of Jaimal singh ji,neither sawan singh ji neither jagath singh ji,inspit of being with charan singh ji u guys know nothing about it,
and even you guys no nothing about the present master.

i actually want to know the motive behind this rssb topic?
what is the interest?

and if u wish to say ,speak ,write, first know the reality and then speak,
do not rely of second or third hand informations.


and instead spend time on something worthful,
rather than wasting time in blaming about someone you do not even know .

and about the religare issue first know the truth then speak.


mla,

are you stupid, or what? whats it to you what other people may think about the RSSB cult? as if eveyone else is wrong and you are right? get real. you're a narrow-minded little nobody. and if you want to believe in RS and its master, then thats your business. but the facts and opinions expressed on this blog are no less valid than yours.

also, YOU more than anyone else needs to "first know the reality and then speak".

and lastly, i happen to know vastly more "about the teachings and life" of Jaimal Singh, Sawan Singh, Jagat Singh, and Charan Singh... than you ever will.

why do you come here and post here, if all you can do is to write a bunch of stupid, confused, and irrational nonsense? you don't ven make any sense half the time. and you have done this many times before.

why don't you go do your meditation and leave the thinking and reasoning to others.

mia, I've been to the Dera (in India) twice. I've written a book about core Sant Mat teachings that was published by RSSB, and another book that was sold by RSSB. I've met the current master quite a few times, including in several private interviews. I've heard the guru speak at public talks (satsangs) during his visits to this country. I've given satsangs myself at both regional and national RSSB meetings.

So I do understand the RSSB philosophy and culture, along with others who visit this blog.

mla,

You said: "because till now i haven't seen any meaningful discussion about rssb here,neither any 100% true matters related to santmat."

--You are wrong. The subject of RSSB has been discussed very thoroughly on this blog. If you will go to the top of the page and click on "archives" and then scroll down to "Radha Soami Satsang Beas" you will discover many posts by Blogger Brian on RSSB and many hundreds of comments. There is enough material to keep you reading and quiet for a long time.



no tucson i would not agree,
the material available here regarding rssb is all 2nd hand or 3rd hand material,
or the personal point of view of few followers,
but none are accurate neither true,
just assumptions,imagination or may be some kind of disliking even hatred,
and the author of this blog itself is in question
he is simply a cunning man satisfying his ego
as he always deletes my important messages and he only allow the messages which interest him,nothing else.
and some one said why rssb followers bother a lot about these blogs,
well thats so innocent about this blog visitors and author as well.

rssb just come here to guide you,nothing else..
but then who cares,
as the author is interested in just one point of view and that is his point of view,

so this is actually a kind of fake blog.
with weak heart and weak minded people.

i have many times mention many post about the real truth about rssb,
but then they get deleted.

so basically the author of this blog cannot be trusted completely.


you can talk,yell,shout.scratch,itch,spit about any path you like.
but with a right approach,
with some reality and truth involved in it.

and which is not at all happening here.

i have been more closely associated with rssb compare to brian.

brian is just kind of child,
grow up brian,
grow up.

ur age is ticking.
realise the truth.

mla wrote:

"the material available here regarding rssb is all 2nd hand or 3rd hand material,
or the personal point of view of few followers,"

--What do you expect? This is a blog. And what do you mean by second or third hand? Many commenters here such as myself have personal 'first hand' experience with RSSB and the practices it teaches.

"but none are accurate neither true,
just assumptions,imagination or may be some kind of disliking even hatred,"

--Some may be accurate and some may not. Again this is a discussion blog. It is not presented as a blog of absolute truth. People here have the right to dislike and/or hate RSSB. You have the right to like RSSB. Get over it.

"and the author of this blog itself is in question
he is simply a cunning man satisfying his ego"

--So what? If you don't want to participate go elsewhere.

"as he always deletes my important messages and he only allow the messages which interest him,nothing else."

--Your messages may be important to you, but the host of this blog may feel otherwise which is his prerogative. He pays for this blog not you. Perhaps your "important" messages are excessively dogmatic and preachy. The host doesn't go for that stuff. Check your dictionary for the meaning of "dogma".

"and some one said why rssb followers bother a lot about these blogs,
well thats so innocent about this blog visitors and author as well."

--Your English is not very clear, but why bother with this blog if you don't like it? Do your meditation instead and leave the master's work to the master. There will always be critics of various religions and paths including RSSB. Surely you must understand that.

"rssb just come here to guide you,nothing else.."

--Some have the opinion that the guidance of RSSB is not very good. You may feel that such people are deluded and wrong, but how do you know that you are not deluded and wrong?

"but then who cares,
as the author is interested in just one point of view and that is his point of view,"

--It seems to me you are interested only in YOUR point of view. If you don't like the blog or other points of view then don't participate.

"so this is actually a kind of fake blog.
with weak heart and weak minded people."

--What is a real blog? One that supports RSSB teachings? Go to that one.

"i have many times mention many post about the real truth about rssb,
but then they get deleted."

-- Avoid being preachy and dogmatic. See what happens.

"so basically the author of this blog cannot be trusted completely."

--In other words, you are saying that he can only be trusted if he believes in RSSB. Your objectivity is completely shut down by the cult indoctrination of RSSB. Think for yourself. Until then, why should you be trusted?

"you can talk,yell,shout.scratch,itch,spit about any path you like.
but with a right approach,
with some reality and truth involved in it."

--The same goes for you. It's all opinion anyway no matter what anyone says about anything.

"and which is not at all happening here."

--In your opinion.

"i have been more closely associated with rssb compare to brian."

--I doubt it. He was deeply involved with RSSB for several decades starting in 1971. I would guess you weren't even born then. Brian wrote RSSB books such as "Life is Fair" and gave many satsangs.

"brian is just kind of child,
grow up brian,
grow up."

--Did you hear that Brian? Grow up!!

"ur age is ticking.
realise the truth?"

-- Your age is ticking too. What if you think you know the truth but actually you really don't?


tucson, thanks for taking the time to respond to mia's ridiculous comment. I didn't have time, or the desire, to give it the attention that it barely deserved.

If I deleted some of her comments, the reason was preachiness and/or personal insults -- as you said. For a supposedly spiritual person, mia sometimes uses some pretty profane language. Those comments get deleted also.

Dear Innocent tuscon,u said


""--What do you expect? This is a blog. And what do you mean by second or third hand? Many commenters here such as myself have personal 'first hand' experience with RSSB and the practices it teaches.""

what do i mean is which you guys do not want to understand or accept,
and ur personal experience is ur point of view,
may be your own attitude wasnt qualified enough to understand the path.

""--Some may be accurate and some may not. Again this is a discussion blog. It is not presented as a blog of absolute truth. People here have the right to dislike and/or hate RSSB. You have the right to like RSSB. Get over it.""

if this is a discussion blog there should be reasonable discussion,and that too from both sides,just not the authors side,
i m not bothering who hate or love rssb,
grow up dear ones,understand simple english language,try to understand,its very simple.


""So what? If you don't want to participate go elsewhere.""

my dear first of all your r no one to say me to go elsewhere,because this typepad doesnt belongs to anyones father,brian is a mere silly a 0.01% part of this blog,
and i m not here for fun,
because here people are talking rubbish about rssb,they can talk,but there should be a truth in it,

""-Your messages may be important to you, but the host of this blog may feel otherwise which is his prerogative. He pays for this blog not you. Perhaps your "important" messages are excessively dogmatic and preachy. The host doesn't go for that stuff. Check your dictionary for the meaning of dogma"".

well you need to check dictinary tuscon not me,people with overloaded egos need dics not me,and brian is preaching dogma,not me,
its just he cant handle my truths he avoids it,and thats enuff to true my statement that this blog is fake and it can be fake,u all can talk shit abt urself and others but you can never talk ill without knowing the truth.
and if the host cannot go with reality then he has to adjust it and accept it,
but he has no right to ignore it or avoid it or delete it no matter whatever he pays,

if paying solve the problem,
then it means everything comes for a price,
if its yes i would like to know the price of brian,perhaps i would like to buy him,if he is for sale.
if he is not ,then do not raise the points about paying and such stuff,
brian is a poor man that way.

"-It seems to me you are interested only in YOUR point of view. If you don't like the blog or other points of view then don't participate."

its not about liking dude,
its about being rude,the way tao is always,
its about reality,but here there is no enuff reality,so i have the right to participate,no one can say not to participate anyone.

""Avoid being preachy and dogmatic. See what happens.""

sorry dude,brian is preachy and dogmatic and diplomatic and unreasonable,thats why u used the word grow up,it doesnt mean some is of age 70 is grown up,
its all dependant on ones mental status.
which i can see,here,people with weak mind.

""I doubt it. He was deeply involved with RSSB for several decades starting in 1971. I would guess you weren't even born then. Brian wrote RSSB books such as "Life is Fair" and gave many satsangs.""

you will doubt for sure,because every person associated with Brian is in doubt,no one is clear neither they can be,because they dont want to be,
and my dear innocent dude,we r related to RSSB from the time of soami ji maharaj,so not even brian every other person visit this blog is a baby,and dear innoncent,if someone spend 100 years and wrote 100 books will make no difference,
thats what i said already grow up,grow up.

my dear my age is ticking i very much know thanks for reminding,but see who is actually nearer to the time.brian thoughts and comments says a lot about his weak mind and is old age,
he has lost into the world of illusions.

and brian and tao both are ridiculous,even i dont have desire time to spit on this blog
but seeing incorrect information about path forces me to come here,.
if not even my servants would not be interested to talk to brian.neither my pets.

Mia - I'm Tara.
Firstly, you sound like an arrogant advertisement for RSSB. ( But a real bad one, so learn to defend your faith in a proper manner if you want your comments to stay up on this blog. )

Secondly, I think that understanding Brian, Tucson and tAo may just be out of your league, as you clearly did not even try to comprehend Tucson's reply to your message - you came back with more stupid stuff that makes for a good laugh ! Like they say, the trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.

Besides your apparent intolerance of others opinions and your overtly rude language, I can't help noticing your feudal mindset - do you label the people who work for you at home as ' servants ' like you mentioned above ? Is that what Sant Mat has taught you ? What a shame that your spiritual path has not been able to inculcate a basic sense of dignity ( in you ) towards all humans.

And, while you hurt about the comments we make about RSSB, your Guru is busy making money.

mla (not mia) is Manish Arora... oh what fun

tara if u find mind language arrogant,because of its ur own attitude,
because you guys all arrogant,
if you have guts come and talk face to face and make ur parents proud,rather than shouting in these kind of blogs,
and my dear innocent tara,i m not doing any kind of advertisment for rssb,do u understand that,im not,and i do not want,
and my language has nothing to do with santmat,
because u guys are zero worth,you guys arre shame,you guys are all arrogant and egoistic people,
its not me who is arrogant,its all you.
and you silly guys when will u all behave like a man,
who the hell is defending the faith
and what faith your talking about,
this blog is about faithless,meaningless,useless discussions,
so its stupidity to talk about faith,
i just safeguard the truth thats it,because may be my language,my fluency in english may not be up to the mark,but my knowledge is far far far more better than you guys,
you are all just nonsense people,,
who hide behind this kind of blogs and satisfy ur egos.
tuscan,tao and brain are unfit to be in my league.
and about intolerance,tara if someone say urdad is bastard(will it make you happy or if intolerant,if someone say ur mom has illict relation with mutiple guys,will it make u happy or intolerant)and thats what happening here,no accurate truth is discussed here,esp about rssb.

yes who work for money are called servants
why the hell there shame in talking about reality
u silly tara u should be ashamed of talking shit here,
u all r blot to human kind,
and my dear silly dude u take care of urself,
do not utter word santmat from urside
u guys are not worth to spell this world,.
especially tao who have sex with many sisters and daughters like he said he enjoy sex with multiple women
now u stupid tara,
this is what santamat taught tao,to have sex with different females,ask those idiots such qs?not me
u silly
and do not talk about the path dear
first talk abt urself,
u guys have no dignity at all
and its been proved atleast 100 times in the blog.

and what does my guru is doing is none of ur business
u take care of ur family and parents first then talk about other path
ur an unfit man,dont have right to talk about any path.
and if u want to talk,learn to respect the path and unless dont know the reality
keep ur mouth shut.

brian its a request do not delete any of my post or comment
and there are never
personal insults in my comments
just i reflect back to the individual according to his response.

mla-you are real gurmukh.

And, while you hurt about the comments we make about RSSB, your Guru is busy making money,and fishing new souls.

juan u all real brianmuk(but brian has no brain)
cheers
and which mukh i m why do u bother dear child juan
u take care of urself..

Mia, before you post any more comments read (and then follow) this blog's commenting policies:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/commenting-policies.html

Such as:
---------------------
(1) No personal attacks on me or other commenters. Challenge the message, not the messenger. Best: You're wrong, because... Semi-OK: You're a fool, because... Not-OK: You're a fool.

(2) No extreme obscenity. Write as if you were in a congenial coffeehouse discussion group, not a high school locker room after your team lost the game in the final seconds. Mild swear words are fine. But goddamn it, don't go over the top.

(3) No rants about the uselessness of this blog. If you're a religious believer, I can understand why this blog could make you angry. Solution: don't read it. If you need to vent, leave a comment on my "I Hate Church of the Churchless" anti-site, not here.

actually this setup here has nothing to do with free thinking

this is an avenue where disillusioned disciples of perfect saints have fallen off the wagon and come here to cry about it one to the other

actually a pretty sad bunch of poor lost self aggrandized fools, but such is the way of the egotist, it cannot see its own emphatic blindness only the apparent blindness of others.

mla,

and also to ahankar, aka ashyhoochiehukaiklanger who posted while I was writing this to mla.

My dear innocent one(s),

I usually don't resort to this but I have to say that you are like a braying jackass.

Why?

Because you are incapable of comprehending and intelligently addressing the issues people place before you. You have nothing worthwhile to offer this blog but close-minded dogma and criticism (braying) of those who disagree, and further, you are a very poor representative and example of the ideals and tenets of the spiritual path you compulsively feel you must defend. Do you think Gurinder Singh would argue like you do on this blog? Do you think he would approve of what you are doing?

tucson, excellent points. I was just about to delete ahankar's "braying" comment, but saw that you referred to it, so I'll leave it as an example of religious closed-mindedness.

From now on, I'll be more stringent about unpublishing comments where people simply bad-mouth this blog, me, or other commenters without offering any substantive thoughts of their own.

As I often note, the Internet is a big wide wonderful place. No one is forced to visit this blog. If you come here, it's your decision. If you're offended, head elsewhere. But while you're here, you need to play by the blog commenting rules:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/commenting-policies.html

ahankar said:

"this is an avenue where disillusioned disciples of perfect saints have fallen off the wagon and come here to cry about it"

-- well thats funny... because the posters that are notorious for crying, bitching, whining, fussing & fuming, and griping about everyone else here are: mla (manish arora) and ahankar/hukai/klukluxklanger/hootchie (ashy heller)... along with a few other troublemakers who also post here occasionally.

these two misfits seem to think that its their job to attack the author of this blog as well as other commenters, and generally harass this blog with their intolerant RS religious fundamentalism.

these trolls (mla/manish arora & ahankar/ashy heller) are both a downright shame and their behavior is a poor reflection and an extreme embarrassment to Sant Mat in general, and particularly to Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB).

"a pretty sad bunch of poor lost self aggrandized fools"

-- thats a rather good description of these two trolls mla (manish) and ahankar (ashy).

"such is the way of the egotist, it cannot see its own emphatic blindness only the apparent blindness of others."

-- another apt description of them as well.

I suspect that the author of this blog is now getting weary of their obviously disruptive intentions, and the rather impolite and demeaning comments and ranting personal attacks.... especially coming from mla/manish. mla/manish is clearly a very intellectually and emotionally immature individual.

its actually sad to see someone make such a fool of themselves like this guy mla is doing. not to mention making himself quite unwelcome here. but mla's pattern is to continue being trollish and rude until the blog's author is forced to delete his ridiculous comments which are full of bogus personal attacks on other commenters.


mla / Manish ! I'm a woman, not a man ! ( LOL )
Your personal attacks are a sign of lack of self esteem, you really need help !

Who Let the Dogs Out?
the Baha Men did...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8


I understand recently that when a Cape Town Satsangi thanked GS for the new property there, and asked if he was going to visit, the answer was, ' No, because the sangat does not meditate enough'.

I realised instantly that the person had misheard and that actually 'Donate' should replace ' Meditate'.

in case anybody didn't understand the meaning of my last most recent post above...

mla (manish) had posted a rather 'barking' rude comment (which of course Brian has deleted).

mla's comment had asked: "who let the dogs out?" apparently mla was referring to the rest of the good folks here as "dogs".

so... i aksed the Baha Men if they would sing a tune to mla (manish), and send him on his barking way. *grin*


Good evening good folks. Appropriate video response.

Yes-Gurinder(aka "Beeji") has a different vibe than Charan.When the RS cult was fairly new and fresh in the West-it did have a certain irrepressible charm--which disappeared,upon Beeji's ascension to the "Throne"-and like all religions--blah-blah-blah.......v152
ps-I like the opinions of "Wei Wu Wei" best.

i came upon this blog quite by accident. i have been in a spiritual crisis for some time now. i was initiated in 1969 and had some extraordinary experiences in the beginning. i was raised as a christian and i have been doubting my "loyalties". i just want to understand who i am what i am my purpose here
and connect to the center of all that is. my meditations are quite frustrating and now with the NEW teachings am really freaked out. this wasnt the plan i signed up for, HELP!!! carlita

Carlita,
I wasn't even born when you were initiated, but as a child, I felt a strong bond with Charan. As I was raised with the RS belief system, my understanding of the philosophy was on the lines of what I've now come to call ' old school ' Sant Mat.

The current Guru's tenure is nothing like that of his predecessor, and a few months ago my god-idea fell by the wayside. Though it was quite a struggle to unlearn and shed what had once been so precious to me, my life has been enriched in a different kind of way - I am a much happier person now !

The problem with having a ' RS spiritual crisis ' is that there is a possibility of having feelings of guilt and fear which are indoctrinated within initiates.

There are several posts on Radha Soami Satsang Beas on this site.
tAo, Tucson, Brian and others have given many interesting viewpoints.

Listen to your heart, have a good day !

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