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December 28, 2009

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The risk of being on the edge with no comfort pillow allows people to be more alert or more oblivious. At times we seek out one or the other. Any salesman will exploit these two desires. If he does it gradually, he will gently paralyse his willing victims.

That's amazing. We would like to think there are spiritual leaders who don't abuse their power and there probably are-- but not many unfortunately. It's in the nature of mankind to search out those who 'know' and some maybe who even did 'know' something become drunk on the power and they lose the little they did have. Others might have been frauds all along. Buyer beware really applies to religion as much or more than anything else inlife.

Rain,

Liked your post. Are you aware of the some that "even did know" that really know? This ability to "know" is something of interst. It's interesting because I don't have this special ability to know.

I recently saw a great documentary about another cult. It was SO eye opening to me. I mean iof course I have researched about cults in the past and even been part of several, but to see these people's EYES....One scene sticks out for me. The guru who they tought was the son of god---two women were stitting at his feet as he sat on a chair (they were his lovers too) and their EYES were GONE. They were totally taken over.
So it is very serious this cult trip.

Though not abusive in the physical sense,RSSB is equal to the task of entrapping minds into a system that does not deliver the goods promised.

I agree 100% with Dogribb.

RSSB is able to ensnare more followers than many cults due to its fairly innocuous overt requirements of vegetarian diet-moral life-no intoxicants-meditation. No demands for money, special attire, appearances with bells and chanting at airports, etc.

You are allowed, encouraged to live a normal family life, but as a karmic duty as it is thought best not to get too attached to worldly relations and activities for they are purely karmic in nature and ultimately a "downward pull" from our true work of meditation and our ultimate, lofty spiritual destiny in vast, grand regions of splendor and light far surpassing our current circumstances in this lowly "latrine" of a physical world.

The covert demands of RSSB are enormous and insidious: the complete surrender of one's inner being to a magical fantasy and unseen, incomprehensible mystical powers. The lifelong vow to never, ever consume even a fraction of an unfertilized egg (why?)or a piece of cheese that may contain the enzyme coagulant rennet which is usually derived from the lining of a cow's stomach. Drinking a single glass of wine or a glass of beer on a hot day could result in a state of guilt that could last for weeks, months, years. Same with missing one day of meditation or entertaining lustful thoughts for a co-worker. A lifetime of self loathing could be the byproduct of one's failure to adhere to the RSSB ideals of purity in mind and action.

And the guru always has an out when results are not forthcoming, even after decades of devotion and practice:

-you just aren't working at it hard enough.

-your karmas are heavy and must be worked through, but rest assured the master is doing everything to reduce your karmic load.

-the guru knows what is best in your spiritual interest and it just isn't your time.

-Don't worry. Every bit of effort is being stored on your behalf and will bear fruit one day, if not in this life surely after death or in another life.

-your mind is impure, keep working at it.

-progress may be coming at any time. Be patient and have faith in guru's grace.

-it is all his grace

-don't worry the master will appear at death.

-if we are given the grace of spiritual experience we may not be able to carry out our worldly duties. (if these spiritual experiences are so overwhelming how come the guru can carry out his worldly duties?)

-and my favorite: Spiritual progress is like boring a tunnel through a mountain. You may be only inches from breaking through to the light of the other side.

It is always blamed on the failure of the devotee and not the path (master) itself.

All this really is a crock of shit. C'mon satsangis, get real.

What you get in return is a profound sense of belonging and specialness.A very mundane psychological need btw. Being connected to the truth brings the idea"I know something you don't know" Many members suffer from "Magical thinking" This imparts even the smallest event or experience as his grace and intervention.I believe the magical thinking is substitute for the lack of real progress seen in practice of the Path.

The "magical thinking" is an interesting way to label the invisible chain that holds many to a guru based path. The God in human form is rather magical, when one thinks about it. I have never been on such a path, however I can see the magical nature of such experience.

Roger,

"magical thinking" is not about anything actually being magic ot magical... it pertains to a mental disorder. it is a psychology psychiatry term which relates to irrational thinking, irrational beliefs and fantasies, and psychosis and schizophernia. and in this case, the mysticism and various beliefs of santmat contain many manifestations of magical thinking.


I agree with 1%.

I think that the level of irrational belief and faith required to accept the dogma and cosmology of Sant Mat, without any evidence whatsoever, requires that one be in a sort of vulnerable, naive, weakened state of mind lacking in self respect and the normal defensive reflexes of logic and skepticism in the face of an absurd, unproven proposition (aka lolly,lolly land).

The RSSB master has been asked questions like these over the years:

So you are God in human form and are here to take me to the highest spiritual region, to the very lap of God where I will reside for eternity in bliss?... Really? Far out!!

But how do I know you can do that?.. Oh, I see, meditate for 10-20-30-40 years or even until the day I die and the truth of this will be revealed when the time is right. Hmmm, makes sense to me. Count me in!! But waiting until I die, that's kind of a bummer man, but if you say so, OK. After all, you are God in human form and all that.

So, you have the ability to consolidate my karma for the most efficacious release from the cycle of birth and death? How do I know you can do that?

"Again, brother, you must follow the path diligently and eventually, if not in this lifetime, certainly in some future lifetime you will understand."...Well, gee, I mean wow!, that sets my mind at ease. Who wouldn't be satisfied with that explanation?

You are able to place a radiant image of yourself "inside" me that will guide me through inner spiritual regions and all the distractions there like 72 virgins?

"Yes Brother, in fact this is one of the preliminary stages and occurs when one reaches the 'eye center'. I'll be waiting for you in all my gorgeous splendour to take you on your journey to the unknowable land of no name or form."...Cool! Gosh, I'm ready for that!! How long will it take to get to this preliminary stage?

"Well, brother, these things are up to your fate karma and the grace of the Lord (me). But again, you MAY have to wait until the end of this life or some future life. Your karmas may be very heavy and it may not be in your destiny in this life. But don't worry, it never takes more than four lives. I promise."...Whew! No problem there Mr. Perfect Master. Only four lifetimes? What a deal!!

And there really are real inner spiritual regions so large that our entire physical universe with all its billions of galaxies and trillions of stars would be the size of a pinhead in comparison? There is karma and I have it stored up someplace? There is rebirth? There is a part of me called a "soul" or "jiva" that is immortal and transmigrates from one form to another, even a duckbill platypus, endlessly until saved by a perfect master (you)?

"Yes, brother, all these things are true and will be revealed to you, but you must have faith and do your duty with love, patience, and devotion to the Lord (me) and in time His grace (me again) will descend upon you."

Well, sir, this all sounds really great, but still I'm a little uncertain you are the real deal and can do all this. Is there anything you can do, maybe give me a little glimpse of the radiant form and the inner regions and your status there would set my mind at ease.

"Brother, you see, genuine masters (me) do not perform miracles. They confrom to the physical laws of the universe and karma and must obey these laws as a boon given to Kal, the negative power, so that souls do not easily escape his grasp."

Hey, wait a minute. You are for all intents and purposes the Almighty Lord but you still have to kiss this Kal dude's ass? Why don't you tell him to stay out of it and give me a little boost, so to speak? And who is this Kal anyway and why does he get special treatment? And if you are the master of my destiny (karma) why can't you just zap all that karma and take me to the lap of God now and dispense with all this four lifetime stuff? Aren't you supposed to be merciful? Why must I continue to suffer? Why is there suffering at all? Why does God allow it? Why, as long as we're on the subject of heavy stuff, is there anything at all?

"Oh Brother, we must not let the mind conjure up all these concerns and worries. Don't pay attention to these distracting thoughts. Just attend to your meditation and in due course (up to four lifetimes) your spiritual salvation will be accomplished and all this will be resolved. I guarantee it. After all, it's my job."

Well, OK. If you say so.

[Note: this comment refers to some incoherent, profane, hate-filled, personally insulting comments from one of this blog's regular trolls that I deleted. -- Blogger Brian]

You better add me as a 4th little snot nosed rationalist twat to your procalamations.

In two posts you have not managed to raise a single supported coherent point of arguementation. If you at least told everyone why they are a twat it would makes sense, but as per usual its the usual shite.

As for foundations of belief systems that you claim to be shakey, why not look at those of RS.

- RS claims no theology, yet its invented countless names for god and the word. It has an entire cosmology replete with different gods controlling each of these planes - and whats more is different sects of the Sant Mat tradition have different names and cosmologies themselves.

- Also, in the RS sect, thre are subsects including Beas and Dinod, each haviung their own perfected master - tho they appear at least superficially to follow the teachings of Soamiji - but who is the actually perfected living master and how can we tell?

- Why did the RS sect single Soamiji out as the Sant with the greatest perfected teaching, what of his teacher?

- RS is laden with regulations of purity for initiation and having to recite particular words and special meditation techniques. More than that RS has inherited a swathe of theoligical doctrine from ancient indian religious philosophy, such as the doctrine of Karma. What evidence is their for Karma? None, yet it is central to the transmigratory re-incarnation beliefs of RS theology.

RS is yet another sect or religion with its own very intricate theology. The only thing that differentiates RS from organised rreligion with its shaky theological foundations is that RS claims a method for direct communion with god.

But even some who practice the RS method religiously do not experience this union and then the fobbed off answer is more theology - that their karma load is too great. This is why is it not a science because it is not a repeatable method, apart from the obvious fact that the experience has no objective proof and is therefore indistinguishable from a hallucication so commonly observed in religious sects.

- Even christians have their rapture and have all sorts of sighting and communions and miracles. Moreover, Christian and muslim sains had revelations as a result of their communions with god, resulting in their own theology.

Total theology. You want to target science's shakey foundations, fine, we've gone thru that ad nauseam on here, now lets see if you have any repose to the shaky foundations of your own belief system RS or if its all just effing and blinding against all who dare to question.

I doubt it.

1%,

Yes, I was referring to the beginning "follower" mentality regarding how something could become "magical" in one's thinking. Someone could find a God in Human form as magical. I think I can understand how this could come about.

Well thank you. I would say too, "I don't have any iota, clue about how anything "true" or real or spiritual absolutely could come about." There are mysteries I simply don't know.

Not sure how I am governed or controlled and conditioned with fixed thought patterns. True, one can portray something out there in open cyberspace. And, I like the "iota" term as you use it in the clues of how anything in life actually comes about. Don't worry I will not use such term against you. Likewise, if I gather something, I may want to share it with others and not just take it.

[William Yenner had a problem when he tried to post this comment, so I've added it for him -- Blogger Brian]

ENLIGHTENNEXT SELLING ITS "WORLD CENTER"

EnlightenNext, the non-profit founded by Andrew Cohen which owns the 220 acre Foxhollow estate located in Lenox, MA, has decided to put the property up for sale. According to the broker Stone House Properties, EnlightenNext is trying to relocate to smaller facilities and into the Connecticut River Valley town of Northampton. Foxhollow, described by EnlightenNext as its "World Center", was purchased in 1996 for $2.8 million; it's now being marketed for nearly $7 million.

During its tenure in Lenox, EnlightenNext has been subject of considerable controversy about its founder and spiritual teacher Andrew Cohen. Over the years multiple allegations of abuse of students have come to light including three books, one of which, The Mother of God, was written by Cohen's mother, Luna Tarlo.

In the fall of 2009 another book by another former student was published: American Guru, by William Yenner and contributors. Several events have marked the introduction of the book including talks at book stores and interviews on CTSB TV in South Lee on the Bob Balogh Show on WBCR Radio, as well as feature newspaper articles in the Northampton Daily Hampshire Gazette and The Greenfield Recorder. In December American Guru was selected as one of 10 Best Non-fiction Books by P2P Foundation, a media think tank.

The controversies about Cohen and EnlightenNext include many well documented allegations from many witnesses of physical, emotional, and financial abuse.

Recently some of the public figures whose contributions Cohen has solicited for publication in EnlightenNext magazine have come forward to express their own concerns about the situation at Foxhollow; their statements can be seen on the American Guru website.

What we have here is a smear campaign. There are other former close students of Andrew Cohen who witnessed or experienced the "documented allegations" and have a very different perspective on the actual events and forces that were at play at the time. Mr Yenners views are by no means typical of former students, and his portrayal of the facts is distorted because of the other facts that he choses to omit...a tangled web indeed
www.guru-talk.com

Read about current developments; Andrew Cohen and his fall from Grace:

http://whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/2013/06/andrew-cohen-and-fall-of-guru-in-age-of_21.html


Gagdad Bob

I read some more above and must say
it's not stupid - it's thinking

Concerning evolution
Tmho cruel evolution aims at compassion

I mean how could we develop empathy ?
and empathy is the driving force back to the source

Is God responsible . . . No, We are**

In the mean time :
there is this Guy, who, when you look at him seems to make you feel better
and the peace stays rather long in us after leaving


As for the vows :
They just tell you about maximum efficiency -
Why would the Gurus instruct us for 10% . . .


I mentioned Swami Ji's words one time but
i like to re-type them
and it will please Mr Cohen , -I never heard about him-up on today :-)


Radha Swami's Teachings page 302
( notice that he was already in Agra writing this ):

""Millions opf sins I have committed, and even more;
how many can I say
Innumerable & countless are they
O my SatGuru ( Tulsi :777 ) be Thou merciful now
With what face shall I implore Thee?
NO FAITH HAVE I, NOT EVEN A BIT OF LOVE
How shallt Thou save me?

In the world there is no other man as bad as I am""

This seems exaggerating but it has to do with meditation
The whole Path is a sinusoidal wave on a slowly rising spiral

A moment will come before the real happenings arrive that the nature of our mind is reveled

This is a very rough moment and it happens in the same way people see their whole life when they

think going to die
One sees former lives included but specially the present state of mind
- you see what this mind really is, represents
and it is mega ugly and horrible -
there is no act, Hitler, Djengiz, or You would have done worse ...
Christian real mystics say : The black night of the Soul

We HAVE to see that before going up the next jump of the trampoline where you can easily touch a

"Very High Heaven", seeing other "Heavens" below You
and
you know for sure that you are also absolutely without the slightest merit indeed


and for the WAVE and the SPIRALE /
he writes :
""Partialy hypocritical and partially out of Fear
was my love for my Guru"


. . . . and a little bit about
"Why does the Satguru doesn't take all my burden and free me in a second , which I read above :

""When Thou dost 'will', in an instant canst Thou drve them away""

Makes me think of a moment in my life asking : "Can this path not do a little bit faster , please

?"

The next 6 weeks were the worst of my life karma-wise - like the book JOB but more
and I lost 16 kilos "
Perhaps I lost 16 kilos of karma as well
I literally begged to consider my request as NOT done
and that worked too -luckyme

Charan said:
The SatGuru , he very prudently removes the thorns without damaging the shirt


Now about this non results
in meditations :

HAVE YOUR BACK STRAIGHTER THAN STRAIGHT ALL THE TIME and stop with
finding excuses for a low back pain we all have at the start

Lateron you will be in meditation and hear the Sounds
while paying in the mall

Cheers

777,
It seems that you like to torture yourself.

Where is Ken Wilber? That's the interesting question.

777 first you came here with saying that we are stucked people here on this blog. Thus far you went further and started to heal us and i can tell you with this attitude in real life off the net you would get butt kicked and smacked a few times man, can't you relax a bit don't be so tensed. You know by attitude like that it is obviously you are the one who need this things you are saying, you are talking to your self you just don't realize that, and my personal feeling and opinion,,, no i don't believe in forceful advices like your and i think they are dangerous and destruct full,moon

Again
What else can an all powerful Being desire except LOVE . . . ?


several times I hear people with concerns for their children and
they are right
Attached to their parents they will go
where the parents go now

ps
I cannot image my comments to be felt as negative

My main statements so far :

Most People are miserable, comfortably or uncomfortably

Reason:
Attachments to temporally stuff

Solution
Attach ourself to a better thing more beautiful
and perpetual; something that can never be taken away from us
with the bonus that it will grow forever

Try- it out


Y'r the source but you are not aware.

If you were, you heard the
presence s or at least her
emanation tiny and super sweet on vibration level

There are humans on this world who can help , - I do some writing;
others can envelop you with vibrations

Also you can desire more
Dhyan is powerful - one cannot find his car keys without imaging them

If you have better proposals for todays happiness
I will join
Heaven is Now and Here

The Sound Path is terrific, wonderful
I think I made you think again in other patterns
hence the panic

If you stopped, try it again
I believe everybody here stopped killing
and didn't take it up again
which facilitates a lot
Nobody went backwards -

I'm going to place my textes on a blog
to namd 777 or more sevens :)
Let's see how the web pundits will react if they ever do . . !

Dharma, it's only time and there is a lot of it
Personally , I'm very happy
and died already

Please tell me what paragraph frightened you?


quote 777
I think I made you think again in other patterns
hence the panic

If you stopped, try it again

moon: What are you babbling, you did not made me think and there is no panic. You think that we need your pedestal preaching but tell you what we all here are and were and are great meditators from many branches and paths and we are developing ambient which can set non preaching mood so everyone can enjoy his own personal freedom and i don't actually give shit what others think about me and what or which technique i use in life wether meditation,Brazilian Jiu Jitsu,weightlifting...cause i actually gave a lot of respect and value to others and lost myself in the ocean of respecting others. My non care for others opinion comes from my care for others opinion.
You are actually trying to break our legs so you could heal them.A nasty self centered act of dishonesty.

Thank you Moon


Let's break a leg

Cheers gurmukhiMoon

-

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