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March 13, 2009

Comments

Shin, you ask some great questions. At first I was tempted to try to answer them. Or at least address them -- because I don’t think anybody, certainly not me, understands the nature of God or ultimate reality. But I’m not going to.

Because what’s most important, in my opinion (and that’s all I’m doing here, expressing my opinion) is the fact that you’re questioning some basic Sant Mat beliefs. Congratulations. It looks like you’ve joined the club of RSSB, and other religious, doubters.

Based on my own doubting history, I suspect that you already know where you stand. You’re just not sure whether this is the place you want to be -- even though it’s where you honestly are.

Since you love your still-believing family and friends, but they don’t love your questioning, you probably feel torn between following your own path to truth, and preserving good relationships with those who are more attached to RSSB than you are.

All I can say is, from my experience, that people who really care about you won’t mind (much) if you follow your heart...honestly, sincerely, truthfully. I haven’t lost any RSSB friends since I became “churchless.” What binds us is something deeper than dogma.

So what does it matter if you have questions about the Sant Mat philosophy? With absolute certainty, I can assure you than virtually every initiate has the same sorts of questions, doubts, misgivings, uncertainties. You’re just more open than most people, more willing to admit “I don’t know.”

Here’s my own question to you: About some things, you do know, don’t you? It’s clear that you want to try some different approaches to meditation and God-realization.

It seems that what is holding you back isn’t the knowing you want to do this, but a lack of confidence or trust in yourself.

I used to feel the same way. I’d been told for so long, “don’t trust your mind; it can lead you astray; you must have faith in the guru and not think so much.” But then I’d think (couldn’t help myself), “After thirty years of meditation and obedience, this is where I feel I need to go now; why shouldn’t I trust moving in that direction?”

You asked if people have found something better than RSSB and Sant Mat. Yes, I have. But if I tried to convince you that my “thing” is what you also should do, that would be pointless.

Truth is drawing you in a certain direction. I hope you’ll trust yourself enough to move in that way. It won’t be my way, or anybody else’s way, but YOUR way.

The way I see it, this may be the only life we have to live. Maybe we continue on after death; there’s no convincing evidence of this, though. So whose life are we going to live during the time we have here on Earth?

Our own, or someone else’s? Our own, or that of our family and friends? Our own, or a guru’s?

When we know, really KNOW, what we feel we must do, and that draws us powerfully, we should pay attention to that knowing. It often (or usually) doesn’t speak in words. But in that unspoken sensation of “Yes!” is the answer to our questions.

Dear Shin,
You say
"I seek the truth and will continue my efforts until I either find it or give up due to sheer exhaustion."
When you reach that state of hopelessness.The adventure of seeking
comes naturally to an end.At that point something Real may happen.
That Real will be only for you and will be unique to you.
It may take all your life but when it comes it will feel natural
and right and come from what you Really are.
Regards
Obed

obed:"At that point something Real may happen."
Or nothing will happen, if you are exhausted, you feel exhausted because after all who or what dictates that something Real(why the capital anyway?, because that socalled Real could be God?) may happen? Nonsense.

Dear JJQ,
Thank you for the opportunity to reply to you and to go a little deeper into what I meant.
The message that I wrote comes from my own personal experience of what happened to me when my belief and faith in RSSB was completely,irreversibly
destroyed by an incident that happened five years ago.The cruelty and indifference that was displayed by the hierarchy of RSSB I cannot forget
even though in myself I have forgiven them.
I don't think I need to go into the horrors the human psyche endures when
confronted by its complete demolition of its belief and faith suffice to say I was only one step away from taking my own life.
I was out walking my dog when inexplicably and spontaneously I was filled with a feeling of great love and the idea arose in my mind that I still had
something that remained untouched by what had happened and that was I still existed.
That thought saved me and has led me in the direction which I now go.
When I write Real with a capital it is a way of giving gratitude and love to that indefinable unknown that is me.
Dear JJQ I dont mind at all that this may also be nonsense to you.I am only
to grateful to be able to be here to reply to you.
If I had to meet you I would give you a big smile shake your hand and
say lets be friends.Words after all are just scribbles that tell stories.I like stories but I dont believe in them.

With kindest wishes
Obed

Shin,

The best thing to do is get it in your head that there is no God.

You have nothing to fear by doing so, no karma, no destiny nothing.

Let yourself go and accept that there is no karma and no destiny.

This will desolve the myth and fancy and dogma that you stuck in and allow you to see a far grander world and universe.

Then rebuild the whole picture again and you will find, and discover for the first time, the transcendent path with clear will/vision.

This is a good exersice. Then if you want, you can go back to RS.

Luie

Good questions, good answers!
I have put it on RSS forum.
Hope nobody mind.
Sita

My suggestion is to keep asking questions and trust that even the process of asking questions is all part of this path. In my opinion Life is the Path...all of Life...not just the part that involved you getting initiation into a particular group with particular practices and a particular mantra.

The life that 'I' am experiencing is the Path and so are all these questions. What happened upon making the choice to walk away from 'Sant Mat', in particular, was and is a slow process of trusting the whole process of living and learning and being and becoming.

All the best,

Gloria

Shin,

These "anomalies" are the answers to your questions. If these anomalies don't make sense, does RSSB make sense?

Listen to your intuition. If you feel something is "fishy" there is probably truth in that feeling.

When you are exhausted by your search for truth and have run out of ideas and are adrift like a boat with no sail or oars, then progress is being made. For it does not lie in the realm of ideas and things.

Find out, when your mind is blank and finds nowhere to turn, and no concepts to cling to, what is aware of that conceptual blankness?

What is the original source of this "me" that is looking?

Obed, Hope you are doing good and enjoying the peace with in. Would you be willing to share the incident that happened with you that destroyed your faith in RSSB ?

Dear sapient,
I dont mind.The point though is what was bad in my
eyes maybe just nothing to somebody else.
The story started when my dear friend's wife developed ovarian cancer.During the six year ordeal
until she died they as loving satsangis frequently
wrote to the present master for help and guidance.
They never ever recieved an answer.Towards the end when all hope had been abandoned they went on a final trip to Dera.They never got to talk to the
present master and returned in a state of complete hopelesness.
A few months after the wife died in terrible pain and agony.My friend ,who is a medical professional monitered her pulse to her end.She never lost consciousness until she took her last breath.He actually felt her pulse go.At no time did any radiant form appear to her.She died a lonely sad death.
Shortly after that a medium(who is a satsangi) contacted him and told him that his wife was in a
very sad state and had not found her way.
My friend sent an urgent letter to Dera.No response was forthcoming.
What really settled it for me was when he contacted the rep in our country and was told all her suffering was due to her not meditating enough.
That was it.I broke completely with these people and jumped into the abyss that opened up beneath my feet.
My friend despite close family,friends lives a
solitary sad life.My wife and I frequently visit and I have tried to help but he is closed completely to anything.He still considers himself
a satsangi but he really doesnt believe anymore and
is frightened to let go.
He is just marking time until he rejoins his beloved wife.

Obed

I always try to welcome pain, it makes to go away.

I think i read that in mirdad, only book sold at rs i still like.

cosmic consiousness is the next evolution and it's been happening to people for a long time.

None of the RS guru's,none on any of the offshoots either, have ever experienced it.

Swami Ji is probably the only one who may have had a little of it, or a lot but, not much is known.

I don't know if there's a god thing. I hate to use the word because it's so loaded. The evolution of the Void, well, everyone who experiences CC say they think there is. So it's part of the experience. You don't even have to be in mediation for it to happen either.


Everything that is required is provided by nature in the body and no guru is necessary other than a reference point.

Hi Cyfer,
Nicely said.I have always liked Mirdad.I have a
suspicion that it was removed from the rs list.
Probably far to heretical.
Kind regards
Obed

Dear Brian and others,

Thank you for replying and wish your truth takes you to God. Though i do feel God implies a higher being and as we are part of this higher being then we are already 'God'. I feel more comfortable in using the 'Creator' as the appropriate terminology.
Realising the Creator Or Knowing Thyself is the real Aim and i feel when we Understand and Experience the Oneness of everything, then and only then will we realise our self's as not only the creator but the manufacturer of everything we see & feel, in and round us. Is it so bold to say we are in fact the Creator {shattered into billions of microscopic parts, separated within differing planes, division & sub divisions} experiencing this human existence as a 'Game'!
{I asked Babji this question at Haynes and he confirmed to all that this is a Game. Again implying the imperfection of creation as the 'Artist' himself was bored!}. Why would you create a game.......to amuse yourself as you are truly not satisfied therefore imperfect!

I hope to find that truth and i concur with feelings of many who have replied, that the search in it self may open up a Truth.
I think when i referred to Exhaustion, the implication was one of merely giving up! But i am experimenting on a inner search with added determination. A real urge to communicate with a/the 'Creator', not an 'in between', guru or teacher. Just trying to simply discover, what i have always felt, we are the Creator.....everyone of us!
We are running around like worker ants, knowing what needs to be done, without pausing and asking the questions why. Many religions and faiths are based on this and like many have realised the fraudulent nature of it.

I would recommend the following link:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
If you watch the first movie release date 25/06/07. It made me question everything.

take care,
Shin

Dear Shin,

Congrats for being initiated by the Great Master. RSSB Gurus are the only gurus who guarantee you freedom from life and birth in four lifetimes, so you needn’t worry, all you should have is faith in your master, BUT since you been through the cycle of 8.4 million births and this is your first life that you have been initiated by a True Master you have full right to enjoy at least this life, so enjoy this life to your fullest and be sure that the master or his children or grandchildren (the future masters) are definitely going to free you from the cycle of birth and death, and if your faith is shaky or you have some doubts then you should not follow these thugs.

You have both the options, the choice is yours.

Best Wishes,

Dear Obed,

The Book of Mirdad is on sale at RSSB bookstores only where they have in stock, but it is no more ordered or printed.

Regards

Obed,

I am sorry to hear about your experience, especially the response of the representative. This is an unkind, even inhumane thing to say to a grieving person.
I often hear of people feeling neglected by not receiving handwritten letters from Baba Ji. I am confused by this, because I can relate to the desire to have one-on-one contact with one's teacher, but it may simply be that he doesn't have enough time to respond to all letters? There are a couple million disciples after all, and I know how long it takes for me to write one handwritten letter. I am not making excuses for anyone, but simply throwing it out there that receiving letters seems to be an expectation held by many and one that has caused a lot of disappointment.

Dear Shin,
When you put away the santmat doctrine,you have the possibilty,to go to satsangs at times if you feel like, because it is not that black or white so to say, it can be nice, to just be in a meditational atmosphere.
Not all satsangi's are that stuck in the dogma's and idea's as they maybe seem to be.
I feel free but can enjoy forinstance the love and dedication for meditation
and still enjoy brother/sisterhood,from people who also are seekers and workers on ''their''paths.
Some thoughts and experiences,
Sita.
ps
everyone does it in their own way and time is telling also..

Dear Adam,Juan and Shin,
Adam:thanks for the kind words.I can feel you are a sensitive person.
Juan:you realise you are in enemy territory.Walk with caution.
Shin:just keep going until the going stops being the going.
Love to all
Obed

Hey Juan,

You are being mislead. I know of 'gurus' who guarantee freedom from the cycle of birth and death in only two (2) lifetimes and say that Sach Khand is merely an intermediate stage and its agents, the Sant Mat gurus, exist to deceive unfortunate souls that Sach Khand is the ultimate stage.

These highly advanced guides are known as Ixtanuatl and only appear once every 493 years at the 1000 meter elevation on the mountain Ambato in Ecuador. Specially attuned souls known as 'ichtimatis' are drawn to these emisaries of the region Wa-h-umu who emit a psychic scent known as Xochita which penetrates the pineal gland causing it to grow to about twice normal size regardless of how far away the ichtimati lives. This enables the ichtimati to receive supra-physical instuctions from the Ixtanuatl who calls the souls to Ambato for the esoteric practice called 'mozoque' which includes a strict diet of llama milk clabber and remaining motionless in a position known as 'atantata' where the ichtimati holds his/her feet together in front of his/her nose with only the little toes touching. This produces an ecstatic state known as umu-umu-h-uchu which reveals all truths of the universe.

Nothing more need be said as all is in the hands of the Ixtanuatl. If you are called, you will go. If not, you won't.

All praises to Wah-h-umu.

That's hilarious Tucson; I wish you or somebody else will write a satire of RS and title it "Whatta Snobby Society!"

"Shin" said (in Brian's article):

"I am writing this more in hope than anything else....hope of finding the TRUTH."

-- If you truly desire to move toward truth, then stop searching for it in dogma and belief. You are still quite enmeshed in the RS belief system, and that is obvious in the things that you have said. If you desire to find more truth, then you must be ruthless in letting go of religious dogma and savior/guru-cultism. You are still flirting with RS. Until you drop that entirely, you will not progress toward truth.

"I have been initiated {RSSB - Current Master - Gurinder Singh} for over ten years."

-- Then its high-time for you to try a different approach.

"I do have one other in the family who [...] closes his mind [...], stating that there is nothing better out there!"

-- As long as you continue to listen to other people who are brainwashed and entrenched in guru-cultism and religious dogma, then you too will remain lost and confused.

"In the beginning there was nothing but God, therefore why was the world created in the first place"

-- You are assuming that there is "God" and that the world was "created". This is part of your problem. You must abandon all these notions and ideas and beliefs, if you wish to find truth.

"At the beginning of time we are told that some souls did not want to leave Sach Khand"

-- This is the same thing as the previous comment.

"the question is if Sach Khand is such a perfect place why did they want to leave?"

-- This is also the same thing. "Sach Khand" and "souls" leaving are merely ideas that you have bought into.

"the other question is that those who did not want to go had to leave against their will"

-- Again, this is anbother concept that you subscribe to, a useless concept that has no bearing or connection to your real life.

"At the beginning of time we were perfect ie. we had no karmas"

-- Again, this is merely an abstract belief that has no connection to reality. And you are caught and imprisoned by it. Let go of all of this kind of metaphysical nonsense.

"how did we get the first karma if we were perfect [...] God put this temptation here in the first place"

-- "God", "karma", "temptation", " perfect".... all these notions are all useless assumptions and obscurations.

"how then can we be blamed for our karmas?"

-- same as above.

"If God knows everything, which he must do if he is all-knowing, then he knows"

-- "God" is in you mind... and "all-knowing" is nothing more than impressive, but meaningless jargon.

"how then can we be blamed for our karmas?"

-- Who is "we"... and what "karmas"?

"Why was the world designed with bad karmas built into it"

-- The world is not what you presume it to be. And karma is not what you seem to think. Karma simply means action. Thats all. You need to drop all of your many presumptions if you really wish to move towards truth.

"we cannot breathe or eat without committing bad karmas. [...] how then can we be blamed for our karmas?"

-- Karma is not what you believe it to be. And there is no such "blame". That is another bit of nonsense, another fear engendering lie.

"If God loves us and can take us back in a second, why doesn’t He"

-- There is no "God" apart from anyone or anything. And there is no "back" to "take us" to. Free yourself from this ignorant notion.

"It is convenient to say "we cannot comprehend or understand the answers [...]you cannot disclose to anyone your findings"

-- That is just standard cultic manipulation rhetoric.

"Why was it decided that we should not know our previous karmas"

-- There is no such "decided". There is no decision, period. Karma simply means 'action'.

"this is very unfair as we cannot prevent making similar mistakes"

-- You are just whining, and only because you are still a sucker for the RS belief system. You can be done with all of that nonsense in a moment - if you really want to find truth. But you can't keep flirting with and believing in the dogma in RS mysticism and expect to progress toward truth

"If EVERYTHING is destined (each breath and hair on your body is pre-destined)"

-- "destined"is just another assumption, another blind belief.

"we are told that Baba Ji [...] will never give us more hardship than we can take [...]as Baba Ji controls our karmas"

-- This is a huge LIE. This guy you call "Baba Ji" controls absolutely no one and nothing. He is just another ordinary human being who has no such spiritual power whatsoever to effect any such thing. This is total bullshit. If you really desire truth, you MUST abandon this type of foolish nonsense, this deceptive lie, this guru-cult illusion.

"How can you be guilty of eating meat if you accidentally eat it even though from [...] it appeared it was pure vegetarian?"

-- There is no "gulity". Eating meat is simply a personal preference, an individual choice. There is no fault or guilt. This belief is another manipulative lie of religious propaganda.

"Baba Ji said poison is poison – you will feel the effects even if you did not know it was there"

-- This so-called "Baba Ji" is no authority on anything. To say that eating meat is eating "poison" is incredibly ignorant and it is also quite deceptive. You must stop buying into this myth. T put it bluntly, this "Baba Ji" is full of shit. He has his opinion, but his opinion is not rational or legitimate. You should not listen to such people. It is misleading and manipulating you, and it is keeping you trapped in lies and false guru-cult dogma.

"If meditation is the most important seva, why is it generally accepted that sevadars [volunteers] will sacrifice their meditation for seva"

-- Why? Because they are brainwashed cult goons. Neither meditation nor seva is superior. This is just yet another example of cultic manipulation of behavior and cult brainwashing. Meditation is not essential, nor is seva.

"How many times are we told we must do our meditation, living in this world and the struggles they present BUT the 'Special Disciples' [...] seem to have had the opportunity to go into caves or the forest and do years of meditation."

-- If you buy into that, then you will be controlled by it. You can do whatever you want in your life, You can live a worldly life, or you can go to a cave. Its up to you. Don't listen to manipulative RS dogma which is all intended to keep you remaining a slave to the cult organization. My advice: Run away from the RSSB, and don't let their dogma fool you and keep you from living and thinking freely.

"As most companies make money by corrupt means or unethically eg. employing slave labour, then this would mean avoiding working and buying goods & services from them"

-- Don't you know and relaize that RSSB is itself a company that employs slave labour? And as long as you buy into and affilitate with RSSB, you will be supporting that. Have some self-respect, and some respect for humanity... and don't support the despicable and deceptive feudal system of RSSB.

"Why is Parshad blessed by Baba Ji if it has no spiritual significance but is only served as a reminder of God when you eat it - as nothing but meditation is supposed to burn away karmas – this appears to be a ritual?"

-- Because it IS a ritual... and it is designed to keep the satsangi followers believing in the false notion that the master is special and holy and divine. It is an absolute lie, and the ritual is a deceptive and illusory myth.

"Why is Dristi [when the guru looks at disciples] by Baba Ji significant before satsang if there is nothing spiritual about it - as nothing but meditation is supposed to burn away karmas – this appears to be a ritual also?"

-- Because RS is full of hypocrisy and contradiction.

"In addition to this, would be the succession and the checkered history and the obvious family links. Through my own investigation you could probably add 'Business' to this list, i.e. property development etc."

-- The RSSB is a long-time family business that has used and deceived and abused tens of thousands of naive and gullible seekers.

"I feel utterly confused and truly yearn for the truth."

-- Then just simply STOP buying into any and all of the cult dogma of RS.

"I [...] cannot believe how the 'faith' has become institutionalised verging on a corporate scale."

-- The RSSB cult is a corrupt business organization that sells pseudo-mysticism as a front.

"The questions I would like to put to you and your readers are: have you found anything BETTER?"

-- Yes definitely. And for you.. even just your own life is better than being a slave and a sucker to that RS cult and its oppressive belief system.

"If it is just a case of "freeing your mind" will this actually help in realising the truth?"

-- And what do you suppose "the truth" is? Until you are free of the spell of guru-cultism and religion, then you will not know what "freeing your mind" really is. You SAY that you yearn for the truth. But then... why do you settle for falsehood and religious dogma? You are confused and have inner contradictions. You will never find the truth that you seek as long as you continue to flirt with RS or any other guru-cult or dogma. So at this point, it appears that you are not truly serious in your desire for truth. You are just playing a game with belief. You want your cake (RS), but yet you want to eat the cake of truth too. But you can't have it both ways. Truth is like a very jealous God. Remember that. If you really want the truth, then you MUST abandon ALL else. Otherwise you will remain confused and mislead.

"In recent weeks I have tried to meditate without using the names but feel at odds. What can I use, what can I say.....I have tried 'one with the creator' / know thyself / who am I / I seek the truth etc etc. [...] Can any of this work ?"

-- Why do you assume that you must have or use some mantra, some words or ideas to repeat? That is stupid. You can simply meditate without such any such obscuring encumberaces. Simple meditation. But even meditation is not necessary. So you just need to free yourself from all such assumed artificial impositions.

"Additionally is there anyone out there who after investigation feels Sant Mat and RSSB is in fact the truth."

-- You just don't understand.... yet. You are looking for truth in all the wrong places. You are looking for truth where it has never been and never will be. You are looking for truth in doctrines and dogma and institutions. You must abandon searching for truth where it is not. Truth is not far away - truth is very near - but you will never find it in gurus, or paths, or cults, or religions, or philosophies. Truth appears as a paradox and a mystery. As long as you continue to be a sucker - as long as you continue to think and hope that you will find truth in RS or any other dogma - you will remain confused. Stop thinking that there is any truth to be found thru Santmat, or masters, or meditations, or any other sort of strategy.

" Has anyone returned to the FOLD? The Masters always claim, disciples after becoming disillusioned with the faith eventually will return to the Fold."

-- That is religious propaganda designed to trick you and make you think that you are not free, that you are now possesed by the guru, forever attached to the guru. That is a outright deceiptful LIE, and you should literally run away from anyone who uses or believes such falsehood.

"Has this actually happened or are we now in the realms of the four lifetimes?"

-- You are obviously still flirting with the propaganda of RS dogma. You are still caught in its web of illusion.

"I seek the truth and will continue my efforts until I either find it or give up due to sheer exhaustion."

-- I must tell you that I don't believe you. You say that, but you don't really mean that. You are looking for people to present arguments to you. But if you really had intended and desired and sought truth above all else, then you would have already abandoned all that RS nonsense that you are still very enmeshed in. Until you drop all of that, then your supposed search for thruth is only superficial talk. It doesn't take but a moment to break free... but you have to really want to be free. You can't have the truth as long as you continue to follow RS or any other cult or dogma.


===========================================


Shin also wrote (in Shin's own reponse comments):

"Thank you for replying and wish your truth takes you to God. Though i do feel God implies a higher being and as we are part of this higher being then we are already 'God'."

-- These are just words Shin. God (or "higher being") is just a word, and an idea that you entertain, that you project as being somehow meaningful. You are caught in this spiritual/religious mindset. Its is only in your mind. Let go of all of those ideas.

"I feel more comfortable in using the 'Creator' as the appropriate terminology."

-- This is that same as I described above. Let go of this nonsense. It does not serve your search for trtuh. It obscures and obstructs clarity.

"Realising the Creator Or Knowing Thyself is the real Aim and i feel when we Understand and Experience the Oneness of everything, then and only then will we realise our self's as not only the creator but the manufacturer of everything we see & feel, in and round us."

-- This is just a jumble of words and ideas that have nothing to do with truth.

"Is it so bold to say we are in fact the Creator {shattered into billions of microscopic parts, separated within differing planes, division & sub divisions} experiencing this human existence"

-- Again, this is just a jumble of words and ideas that has nothing to do with truth.

"I asked Babji this question at Haynes and he confirmed to all that this is a Game."

-- This "Baba Ji" has no answers. He knows no more than you do. And HE is the one who is playing the "Game". You will not ever find truth as long as you continue to seek it from such pretrenders. You must abandon your flirtation with all of this RS nonsense.

"Why would you create a game.......to amuse yourself as you are truly not satisfied therefore imperfect!"

-- This subject matter ( ie: the "Lila" of prakriti & purusha) is far deeper philosophically than you realize. You are obviously not yet ready to delve into the philosophical implications and esoteric domain of this matter. At this point, you should simply free yourself from the mystic guru-cultism in which you are entrapped and entrenched.

"I hope to find that truth and i concur with feelings of many who have replied, that the search in it self may open up a Truth."

-- You must abandon your desire to have truth "concur" with you. To move towards truth, you must surrender your trip and embrace mystery. As long as you continue to play your game of spirituality and mysticism and guru-cultism, you will never find truth.

"I think when i referred to Exhaustion, the implication was one of merely giving up!"

-- Thats what you need to do - Give it up. Give it ALL up.

"But i am experimenting on a inner search with added determination. A real urge to communicate with a/the 'Creator', not an 'in between', guru or teacher."

-- That is a kind of duality. You "inner search" is itself the stumbling block.

" Just trying to simply discover, what i have always felt, we are the Creator.....everyone of us!"

-- There is no such "Creator". This is just a mistaken idea.

"I would recommend the following link: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ "

-- The Zeitgeist video is exteremely misleading. It is full of socialist agenda propaganda and new-age mind-control. It is not what it appears to be on the surface. You should wake-up from that sort of crap.

Hi Shin,

Your main question: “have you found anything BETTER?”

Somehow, I don’t sense a true seeker here. Your questions are the same old regurgitated questions the ‘cult of the ex-satsangis’ use.

I have a few suggestions, if I may: Why not try the mainstream way of life, have fun, eat whatever you like, drink alcohol, take drugs, screw around … and then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”

Or perhaps try the other religions, go to different churches, listen to the sermons. Or maybe, join some of the new age type cults; there are stacks of them around. And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”

Or perhaps you could try being an ascetic, like the Buddha, when realizing that all humans eventually become old, ill and diseased and then die, threw off the worldly attachments and through much suffering and sincere effort found enlightenment. Or maybe try 17 years of constant meditation in a back room (sound like anyone you have heard of?). Probably these options are far too difficult but you could try? And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”

Then maybe, you might think, having been born into a satsangi household, you could try being the good satsangi type. Do your seva, attend the weekly sermons (oops, I mean satsangs), also you may want to climb up the ladder of the hierarchy. And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”

Or, what about thinking to yourself … “I guess no-one else is going to be able to answer my questions or do the hard work for me, I could sincerely try putting in my own effort to find out who I really am”. And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”

Hi Shin, I was interested to read how you used the word 'Creator' in the comment section. We are in fact Stardust- what's left over from a star manufacturing itself.

I was at a lecture last week given by the American Astro-physicist Debra Shepherd from the National Radio Astronomy Observatory. She is in South Africa to promote the Square Kilometer ARAY also known as Meerkat. This field of massive Radio telescopes stands a good chance of being installed in the South African Karoo. Dr. Shepherd confirmed our origin with spectacular photographs.

www.ska.ac.za

Some people may wish to believe that there is a Creator who manufactures humans in this way. I prefer to take things at face value- we are caused by what is scientifically shown. It is grand enough. Creators and the likes- Science hasn't come across a Creator, infact no-one can be proved to have done so.

As far as Oneness is concerned, read Brian's previous post where abstraction is discussed.

Your questions are excellent incidentally. Give them to your family to answer. They will not have the anwers of course, but look out for this predictable one- "reason is the enemy of faith, sometimes you just have to have faith". Here you will know that they are all swimming in the warm waters of their comfort zone.

HI Zenjen,

"I have a few suggestions, if I may: Why not try the mainstream way of life, have fun, eat whatever you like, drink alcohol, take drugs, screw around … and then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”

Hey, when you put it like this, mainstream life sounds pretty good :)

(though I've been a vegetarian far too long to start eating meat now)

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the chuckle … I was just being a bit outrageous and I wouldn’t really recommend that kind of life. I like being a veggie and if the drugs and alcohol didn’t kill me the guilt probably would!

Dear Catherine,
I have approached the family with all these questions, though not all at once but periodically. As you can guess not one could give me a satisfactory answer and the majority telling me to do my Medi and find out for myself!!

Dear tAo,

Thank you....i may have needed that!

All those questions highlighted have been festering in my mind for some years and all i wanted to do was to share them with people who understood.
You must realise i would be virtually ‘torn to shreds’ and disowned if family and friends who are 99% satsangis found out about my misgivings!
I found this site and felt the 'weight' had started to come off and could once again begin to feel free to some extent.

tAo, i appreciate your direct approach verging on the blunt and i WILL try to LET GO but please understand it has been in my family for FOUR generations and i need the SUPPORT of everyone on here! I suppose it is like giving up smoking or drinking....just takes a wee bit longer...but boy do you feel good afterwards.

All,
I appreciate your insight and candour and hopefully in the very near future, be able to FREE myself, without turning back and questioning my decision.

Shin

I see nothing has changed.

The same questions are asked and the same people munch on them, regurgitating their doubts and debates.

Anything to keep them from the practice and progress that counts. The tough stuff. The sacrifice. The discomfort. The pain and itches and ... well if you didnt persevere you'll never get past the natural barriers.

The mind will say... question this, debate that, incite doubt and lets talk and talk and talk.

Because its easier than the other stuff.

the same brian, the same tucson, the same tao and crowd.

amazing how much time can pass, and just like a pathetic tv soapie, you can quickly catch up with the mindless storyline.

church of the churchless. more like a society of disgruntled athletes who never bothered to come to training, to sweat it out on the track - day in and day out.

now, flabby and pasty they sit on the sideline and flap their lips against the athletes and their efforts.

lets yak and yak they say. so much easier than the other stuff.

Unknown, I enjoy your comments in this sense: they show up so clearly closed-minded head-in-the-sand fundamentalist dogmatism. You could be a Muslim, Christian, or Jewish true believer. Instead, you're a Sant Mat true believer. But you're equally threatened by direct experience and facts, instead of blind reliance on holy books and holy gurus.

Many of us here have a huge amount of experience with meditation. We're marvelously qualified to describe our experiences. For about thirty years I meditated almost exactly (perfection isn't possible) as taught. For around half of that time, two and a half hours a day, as instructed. When I was working full time and had a child, more like an hour and a half.

So don't preach at me about sacrifice and discomfort. You don't know what you're talking about. I've sat for countless hours with pain, restlessness, tears, intense devotion to the guru.

I wrote three books in a spirit of seva. This entailed way more time and effort than almost anyone else in RSSB puts into volunteerism. It wasn't a weekend here or there. For each book it was, literally, years of almost-daily writing seva, usually for four hours or so a day. Or more.

So yes, you ignoramus, I have "sweated it out on the track." I have "come to training."

For at least twenty years I served as secretary for our local RSSB group (sangat). I organized meetings, gave talks, got to the meeting place early and set up chairs. So don't blab to me about "athletes and their efforts." You have no clue about what I and others put into following the Sant Mat path.

No clue.

and yet you continue to bang your tin drum to your new audience. do you want a medal for your failures? do you want your ego stroked by your pseudo cyber sangat? its easier isnt it?

you gave up. you threw in the towel and exchanged the drivers seat for the back seat.

Adam & Zenjen,

Now don't be shy y'all. Don't be afraid to break your taboos. You might just like the taste of freedom that you cannot know until you overcome those self-imposed
limitations that you adhere to. Eating meat, taking a little alcohol or drugs, and indulging in sex instead of boring old meditation... is damn good medicine. You won't ever realize that until you let go and give yourself the freedom to LIVE. I hear in your humorous responses a slight glimmer of wishful thinking, but your knee-jerk taboos and fixations squash it before you go further. You have to just trust that all will be well (you won't burn in karmic hell) and just go ahead and venture into that unknown, which as soon as you do, will no longer seem like such a big deal, big obstacle. Then you will laugh and feel the freedom that you knew as a child. Presently, you are trapped and bound by self-imposed limiting ideas and taboos and all manner of supposed reasons that you have in your head or that you acquired from others.

Just let go. Live a little. A little meat, booze, and drugs will not kill you or prevent your enlightement. In fact, it will probably be very enightening for you. But remaining stuck in bunch of suffocating self-imposed limitations WILL eventually kill you - or bore you to death.

Just take it from me... a guy who has most certainly done more drinking, and more sex drugs and rock & roll, than anyone you have ever known or will ever know. And yet I am probably far more healthy - more physically and mentally fit - and stronger and more alive and happy and wise, than all of the repressed sexually inhibited vegetarian spiritual meditators and uptight sadsangis put together.

So to to get your Churchless asses moving, just be sure to repeat this mystic mantra before and after meditating: SEX, DRUGS, and ROCK & ROLL!!! And be sure to stop for a meal at Burger King, either before or after Satsang.


there. my observations were spot on. tao responded right on cue. the tattooed yobbos in their pews, cheering on their minister of no direction.

Shin,

Who cares what your family says? Who cares what answers they offer? What do they know anyway? They have no broad perspective. Why do you worry about them? Live your own life, and let them live theirs. If they bother you, tell them to mind their own business.


As for all those questions that have been festering in your mind, it is good for you to share them. I am not criticising your questions. I am trying to get you to think for yopurself, rather than remain stuck in dogma.

You said that you "would be virtually ‘torn to shreds’ and disowned if family and friends [...] found out about my misgivings"

-- You should not live this way. You must be bold and stand up for yourself and your own views and path in life. Just tell them to mind their own business. Don't be afraid of them, or let them oppress you. As soon as they see that you have a mind of your own, they will leave you alone. You must become an adult. Spirituality is a personal choice. They have no right to impose Santmat upon you. But you must let them know that you are your own person and you will not be swayed by them. You need to take your power.

"I found this site and felt the 'weight' had started to come off and could once again begin to feel free to some extent."

-- That is very good. I am sure many here feel joy at hearing you say this. Continue your progress and growth in whatever direction you feel best.

"i appreciate your direct approach verging on the blunt and i WILL try to LET GO but please understand it has been in my family for FOUR generations and i need the SUPPORT of everyone on here!"

-- You have my total support. I was blunt with you because I felt I needed to shock you a little - to make you really THINK for yourself.

"I suppose it is like giving up smoking or drinking....just takes a wee bit longer...but boy do you feel good afterwards."

-- Yes... as you begin to think for yourself and gain more clarity, you will feel stronger and happier and a sense of freedom. This will then spur you on. Don't fear that you are losing anything. You cannot lose what is inherent in yourself. You are now on the path to discovering your own living path, your own spiritual life, your own reality. Whatever is real, you can never lose. You will only lose that which you do not need, and that which is inhibiting your growth. The guru and path is Life itself... your own unique life. You WILL find your way. Just trust in the mystery of your existence. If you meditate, just let it come naturally. Don't try to impose anything artificial on your life. Trust in your own awareness, in your own being, in your own natural self-perfected state, in your own self-liberation.

Best of luck to you.

Tao says

"I am trying to get you to think for yopurself, rather than remain stuck in dogma."

Tao is a narrow-minded hypocrite who battles to accept alternate opinions himself.

A simple search through this blog - for his tiring comments - will verify that.

Its amazing how these tin-drum men and 'ministers' love their own company and the company of 'lost souls' that they can 'guide'.

pathetic

Unknown,
Why are you so angry? What are you afraid of? Have your cultic mind lost (blind) trust in the Guru that he will take care of his disciples and will save them from people in churchless? Why are you feeling so challenged when few people are talking about cultic approach of RSSB?
Why should you be different from a Islamic Jehadi who needs to throw bomb when somebody criticizes Islam :)

Unknown says:

"I see nothing has changed."

-- That only means that nothing has changed with you.

"The same questions are asked and the same people munch on them, regurgitating their doubts and debates."

-- Thats just what people do. Thats apparently what they need to do. So whats it to you? You think you are better than them? Well, you obviously are not.

"Anything to keep them from the practice and progress that counts. The tough stuff. The sacrifice. The discomfort. The pain and"

-- Sounds like you are saying: "don't question, don't think, don't discuss, don't debate... just have faith and go do your spiritual practice, meditation, or whatever" If thats what you mean, then thats lame.

"well if you didnt persevere you'll never get past the natural barriers."

-- "natural barriers" you say? Thats just an assumption in YOUR mind. And your sense of the meaning of perserverence is skewed. Compared to myself, you have little or no clue about REAL perserverence. You sound like just another advocate of blind faith. If you are not, then indicate otherwise.

"The mind will say... question this, debate that"

-- Yes, it does sound like you are one of these folks who puts blind faith above reason and logic. But that is the way of the blind leading the blind. You can fall into that ditch if you want, but I will trust in my own innate intelligence and insight, which has proven to be far more reliable thooughout the whole of my life. I'll place all my bets on my own innate wisdom and awareness and common sense... and in not in ignorant blind faith.

"Because its easier than the other stuff."

-- What is "easier"? Thinking and reasoning for oneself is not easy at all. It takes mental strength and guts and a clear mind. Its not for those who are disempowered blind followers.

"church of the churchless. more like a society of disgruntled athletes who never bothered to come to training, to sweat it out on the track - day in and day out."

-- You don't know what the fuck you are babbling about. You have no clue about what other people here have done or have experienced or have achieved, or how much they have worked or struggled. You are just a shallow sack of shit who has no wisdom or insight or knowledge into anyone else.

"now, flabby and pasty they sit on the sideline and flap their lips against the athletes and their efforts."

-- Sorry "unknown" jackass, but I for one have 'been there and done that', and long long before you ever even took a single step. You have no idea who you are talking to, or what you are talking about. Thats why you are not say anything of any substance.

"lets yak and yak they say. so much easier than the other stuff."

-- You know nothing about "the other stuff". And btw shithead, I HAVE walked the walk, and so I've earned the right to talk the talk - to "yak and yak" - so go stick it up your pathetic spiritually self-righteous fat ass, you juvenile troll.

You are just a dumb-ass and a joke... and yes I'm definitely laughing at you.


Unknown,

Why do you bother to read this blog if it is inhabited by "tin-drum-men" whose comments are so "pathetic" and "tiring"? If you are confident and secure in your path, why are you so defensive and offended by the commentary here that you feel you must lash out? Why do you care? Isn't everything in the master's hands? Leave it to him and attend to your simran and bhajan. Right?

Unknown says

"Tao is a narrow-minded hypocrite who battles to accept alternate opinions himself."

-- You know nothing about me. And you also know very little or nothing about my opinions. You are only reflecting your own narrow-mindedness and your own pathetic cult mentality which disrespects others who are free and who can think for themselves.

"Its amazing how these tin-drum men and 'ministers' love their own company and the company of 'lost souls' that they can 'guide'."

-- Wrong again. I am not any "minister", and I have no such interest in guiding anyone. You could not even pay me to do so. You are clearly merely grasping at straws, but unfortunately you are unsuccesful. And you have not offered or contributed anything remotely positive. That makes you a troll.

Its obvious that you are here as a troll, and you are a troll who is probably also part of some irrational cult like RS.

You need to get yourself your own real life.


Unknown,

You said,
disgruntled athletes who never bothered to come to training, to sweat it out on the track - day in and day out, this applies to me at least, all I was curios is who would be the next successor of RSSB.

Thanks

How interesting it is to hear all the diverse opinions expressed here. Also to feel free enough to be able to just be myself, say my stuff in my own way. Feels great, quite liberating.

A person who questions and then weighs up the answers is finding themselves and directing their path; they are not lost.

For Shin, it is not to her advantage to do this after being born into generations of RSSB initiates. It is far easier and more pleasant to stay in the fold.

Incidentally, Unknown you may consider yourself an athlete for doing two and a half hours of meditation a day, but maybe, you should have a look at the quality of it. How attentive is your coach? Has he advised the right diet and supplements? Do you feel an improvement in yourself Although RSSB gurus may say quality doesn't matter, the best barometer is to look at yourself and observe whether it does matter. Internalising for such long periods of time is considered in various meditation paths to actually create psychological problems; read what the other Unknown has written in his 4 posts recently.

It is often difficult to read the origin of our reactions. Yours is a mixture of anger, superiority and resentment. Resentment is incidentally one of the main negetive mindsets in Tibetan Buddhism. The belief is that it ties a person to the wheel of Samsara.

Unknown,

I can only speak of my experience amongst four generations of devout satsangis and within a community full of so called devout satsangis.
Your actions show others who you are and if you do indeed follow the principals of RS. Hitherto i have not see the humilty, forgiveness, humbleness etc required of satsangis.

I was born into this, started seva when i was 4 or 5 [yes that’s correct} and now 40 years later i cannot differentiate it from any other religion.

People i thought who were pious, people who i thought who were humble, people who i thought were genuine, people who i though t were moral...turned out to be a bunch of frauds!

Many speak a good faith but to this day have not put into action....it is all book knowledge, stories and gossip! Many of these so called premie satsangis are involved in corrupt businesses {i know this as a fact}, others as soon as they leave a satsang go back to their old ways of gossip, in fighting, family squabbles, bitching, illegal practices etc. I am talking about people who have been on the path some 50-60 years!I have not seen any change! What was the point of being initiated if NOTHING changes? Even at Haynes people who are around the Master are worshiped just as much as the Master! Do you need even more evidence of how lost they are?

I was like you, having a go at anyone who was not satsangi. I enjoyed all the stories, i enjoyed the books, the seva and would relay all this to others making them feel these were MY experiences BUT then i realised that's all it was, stories and so called experiences of others. In fact i ‘shook the world’ of a Jehovah’s Witness a couple of years ago but before leaving he said quote ‘ you are fortunate to have seen all this and experienced such wonders’, he then left before i could correct him. I felt totally corrupt and thought, how many more people have felt that way and have come onto the path on Experiences of others that in fact did not occur.

You talk about lazy people, you talk rubbish! Many have put in decades of practice and have achieved nothing....Yes maybe the numbness of the body or sounds {i suppose you have not heard of Tinnitus - especially in old age} but you get this with Any kind of Yogic / Meditation practice.
Present me with someone who has fully experienced what the Masters promise....you can't, why, because they are not allowed to say...how very convenient. Must take it all on faith....how does this make it any different to any other faith.

Let me convey to you my own family experience;
My Grandfather has been meditating deeply for 40+ years. Ever since i have known him he has NOT been outside the realms of worldly influences....bickering, arguing, selfishness etc etc, basically being human, like we all are. He went back to India some five years ago and according to my father is tied up with the same family problems and issues as before.
I recently found out he was donating all his money to Seva, to the extent that he was not paying his servants the going rate!! Can you believe this, the poor old servants were being neglected basic human rights so he could further grow the Coffers of RS.
He is nearing 100 now and what he is trying to do......he is trying to BUY HIMSELF INTO SACHKHAND... FEAR that is what this faith and others rely on. I see it all the time, wherever there are seva boxes there are old people stuffing huge amounts of money in them! As i said just fear and nothing else...do you not feel sorry for them?

There are now many, many satsangis out there who doubt. They are using their intellect and not suppressing it as they have been told to do!

I have been fortunate, sorry let me rephrase that, unfortunate enough to be around people in the know with RS and it’s not always a pretty picture.
One incident, which all are aware of and happens all the time;
When people attend Haynes Park and the Master is present, they are made to feel shameful and demeaned, as when they go and their names are not on a list, {due to no fault of their own}, they are put into a little cabin and are left their for an hour - hour and half. Then the representative would come in and 'tell everyone off' and ask them not to repeat this mistake! Is this your representation of the faith? By the by, nobody cares of this when the Master is not their.

There are many instances of an organisation but i will be here forever if i began to relay all.

You have a nerve to call people lazy when you have not one iota of evidence supporting your claims.... your assumptions are just wrong.

Shin {Mr}

Dear Shin,

Very True,I think its not only you, but thousands who would be having similar sort of experience. You said,

People i thought who were pious, people who i thought who were humble, people who i thought were genuine, people who i though t were moral...turned out to be a bunch of frauds!

Many speak a good faith but to this day have not put into action....it is all book knowledge, stories and gossip! Many of these so called premie satsangis are involved in corrupt businesses {i know this as a fact}, others as soon as they leave a satsang go back to their old ways of gossip, in fighting, family squabbles, bitching, illegal practices etc.

IS THE MASTER AND HIS FAMILY NOT INCLUDED IN THESE PEOPLE?

Further you said,

There are now many, many satsangis out there who doubt.

Even the so called Master and most of the high ranking sevadars are well aware of it and have resolved their doubts by offering them sevas of importance.

Thanks and best wishes

There may not be any reasons why certain people have spiritual experiences and others don't. Karma is an inadequate concept to attempt to explain that. But if you truly do not believe that people all over the world, since the beginning of time, have had spiritual experiences, i feel sorry for you because you are wasting time here venting your personal frustrations even with that knowledge.

On the other hand, i understand why you are frustrated. Everything is deeply mysterious in this universe though. You seem to be on the verge of becoming a materialist atheist because of lack of spiritual experiences. But before you completely close your mind why don't you read about and consider the fact that there have been, and continue to be, unknown things in the world that do not conform to a materialistic point of view? If you carefully looked at the evidence and kept your mind open, you would see that there are in fact plenty of anomalous experiences recorded.

I do not know why you haven't had any spiritual experiences and i don't think anybody else knows either. It is not because they do not exist, as i stated before.

I know pratically nothing about the organisational details of RSS because i haven't personally been involved but the kind of corruption you are talking about exists EVERYWHERE in EVERY organisation. It is an inescapable fact. You might have been personally unfortunate in that the particular people you came across in that organisation happened to be particularly "bad". But i wouldn't point the finger at every single person in that organisation as being personally responsible for the situation, nor would i conclude that every single person has not had spiritual experiences, especially because you haven't.

If you read these blog comments you can see that many people come here and tell others that they do, in fact, see lights within and other similar things. So it is not as if every person on this website is like you. Your personal frustration might be temporarily clouding you to this fact.

Another thing, meditation generally relaxes people deeply. So if you have spent the last 40 years meditating you haven't done it in vain if you have become relaxed from it. So don't think you have wasted your time either.

I would like it if you searched the internet for astral projection websites and forums and see that people do indeed experience those things. Nobody knows why some people do and some people don't. There can be a million opinions on that and a million explanations of what the truth of the experience is but the FACT is that it happens to some people, and that is the only important point to take away from all this. I have even seen a person write on a forum that they helped Robert Monroe write some of his books and they have been trying to have an OBE for 40 years without luck! So again, some people have these experiences and other people don't and there doesn't appear to be any valid reason why.

Some people here might object that seeing lights, having out of body experiences and hearing sounds have nothing to do with genuine spirituality. But they are mistaken.

"Some people here might object that seeing lights, having out of body experiences and hearing sounds have nothing to do with genuine spirituality. But they are mistaken."
---What is genuine spirituality? How does One free oneself from being, mistaken? What is wrong with someone that is truly mistaken? What is an "out of body" experience, that could be explained by One that is not mistaken?

Thanks for any replies,
Roger

p.s. - still need to know what Hell, Eternal darkness and Eternal life are.

Dear David/Juan,

You misunderstood.

My comment was directed at Unknown and his assumption that people who are no longer on the path are out due to their inadequacies and general laziness in practice.

I never said experiences cannot be had. I also never said there is no other path.

I was relaying my experience within RS and the reliance on Reading material and unsubstantiated experiences of others.

Like i have continued to say, i am trying to free my mind and if this Forum works then great, i would be the happiest person alive. If it does not, i won't curl up into one corner and decry my efforts. I will move on and maybe realise a truth one day when staring at my own reflection in my mirror at home.

Shin

I didn't say you said that experiences cannot be had but judging by what you said about tinnitus and your overall post it sure seemed to me that you were frustrated at a lack of experiences.

Likewise, you talk about the unsubstantiated experiences of others. If you aren't talking about spiritual experiences here what are you talking about? And why does it matter to you whether other people claim to have experiences? Surely your experiences are more important?

What do you mean by "trying to free my mind"? That sounds ridiculous to me. You already seem to be sure you are right so why would you need to come here to prove it to yourself? If you genuinely have doubts about the authenticity of the RSS path then i CAN understand your frustration but it sounds to me like you have already made up your mind, which is why i cannot understand what you hope to achieve at this website.

David, you're confused. Suggestion: do some clear thinking, take a deep breath, and look freshly at what I and other people are saying here.

You'd be hard pressed to find any assertion that people don't have what they call "spiritual experiences." Heck, I have them all the time. Every time I walk the dog on a clear Oregon night when the moon is full, owls are hooting, and stars are shining brightly. I feel a connection with the cosmos that can't be put into words.

What we hope to achieve here, or at least what I do, is open discussion. And support for those who want openness rather than dogmatism, independence rather than authority, evidence rather than blind faith.

Who says we have made up our minds? Quite the opposite. People here are seeking truth in an open-minded fashion. It is the true believers who have made a firm distinction between truth and falsehood.

From personal experience I recognize that it is difficult to break out of a fundamentalist mindset, where skepticism and questioning is viewed as heretical, wrong, the devil's workshop. Look at things from a different angle and I suspect you'll feel more comfortable with a freer approach to spirituality and philosophy.

No, sorry to burst your bubble but i am not confused and i don't need to take any deep breaths.

You have repeatedly, all over this website, talked about your lack of spiritual experiences with meditation. I wasn't talking about mundane, everyday experiences that some people call "spiritual" like walking the dog. I was specifically talking about spiritual experiences in meditation and also things like Out of Body experiences and psychic phenomena. So that needs to be cleared up.

As i said just now in my other post in the newer thread, skepticism is fine and it is needed. But dogmatic skepticism is no better than religious dogmatism. And you appear to be persuaded by arguments from dogmatic skeptics.

Of course religious dogma is bullshit. I don't think anyone around these parts has a problem with that. And obvoiusly the cult of RSS has dogma and questionable organisational practices and claims made by the gurus. Everything should be submitted for the "acid test" so to speak.

Shin has reasonable doubts and has made good points but i see flaws in some of what he has said and i have pointed them out. Let me be unequivocal here - spiritual experiences with meditation and b) his observations of people within the RSS cult and how they don't live up to his expectations, when behaviours of this sort happen EVERYWHERE in EVERY organisation. That is all i have said really.

You are all right, every single one of you, Shin and David and unknown, maybe even Brian in his unknowingness is getting closer to knowing

Problem is we judge from a position of blindness, unknown is not wrong, perhaps he is frustrated with the audacity of blindness, but ultimately nothing will be found outside of your center, not by anyone, and whoever gives you a false notion to challenge just challenge yourself, egocentric wrangling about right and wrong, spiritual or mundane will fundamentally get no one anywhere further than they are already.

It is so simple its almost mind blowing, thats exactly how succinctly simply it actually is.

ashy, that is so nice and so well put. Thank you.

All,

Let me clear up a couple of things first:
1. I am only 40yrs old
2. Initiated 10yrs ago
3. Male.

Ok hope that's that.

Why are people questioning their beliefs...because they have seen, heard or experienced or lack of, something that does not conform to the beliefs.

You have faiths that do indeed promise a lot and do not deliver! Therefore it is only natural to Doubt and Question. We are human after all, though some may think they are far superior.

When I came across this website all i wanted to do was remake my mixed up and confused JIGSAW {actually pieces were indeed missing}. After reading the numerous posts and making further investigations, i have the pieces and it is up to me how i use them and what my Jigsaw will ultimately look like.

Brian is exactly right when he says:
Brian Writes:
What we hope to achieve here, or at least what I do, is open discussion. And support for those who want openness rather than dogmatism, independence rather than authority, evidence rather than blind faith.

Who says we have made up our minds? Quite the opposite. People here are seeking truth in an open-minded fashion. It is the true believers who have made a firm distinction between truth and falsehood.

That is why i came here and am extremely grateful for all the comments from whichever side they came from.
I would hope you would now let me 'get on with it' as it is true, all this wrangling as Ashy would like to put it is achieving little.
But it is indeed needed {scientist make many mistakes before achieving anything of note - trial & error}.
Future readers will gain Spiritually as i know others who are new to CC but are on the outside are keeping an close eye on all posts before committing their own opinions or making judgements.

Again, i appreciate all that has transpired and you never know, one day, when in between incarnations {if you believe} we will all sit down and have a good chuckle at the Game we have just played and took so seriously.

take care,
Shin


Shin,

Bravo! Your comments are quite thoughtful and articulate. And contrary to what David may say, I can see that you are honestly trying to step back and away from the hype of RS. Its really great to see someone like you asking the hard questions, and your willingness to face reality and let go of illusions and hypocrisy of cultic pseudo-spirituality. Keep on moving forward an onward brother.


David,

Those "mundane, everyday experiences" that you mention are not necessarily not spiritual. Some of the most profound spiritual insights and trascendent experiences happen in seemingly normal circumatances.

And also, your idea and belief that so-called spiritual experiences are restricted and confined only to "meditation and also things like Out of Body experiences and psychic phenomena" is not valid or correct.

In fact, so-called out-of-body experiences (OBE) and psychic phenomena etc are not of the level of true knowledge, wisdom, or direct insight/realization. They are merely nothing more than transitory perceptual phenomena, regardless of whether they are experienced through the five external senses or via meditation.

You apparently do not yet know the difference between a)perceptual sensory phenomena; and b)direct insight-awareness or realization. To put any stock or value in the transitory out-of-body and experiences and psychic phenomena that you mention, indicates an fundamental absence of real discriminative wisdom or realization - jnana.

You said: "Of course religious dogma is bullshit. I don't think anyone around these parts has a problem with that."

-- I disagree. A percentage of folks who visit here do in fact have "a problem" of denial realitve to their attachment to religious dogma.

"And obvoiusly the cult of RSS has dogma and questionable organisational practices..." "...behaviours of this sort happen EVERYWHERE in EVERY organisation."

-- Yes, and so what? Just because they happen elsewhere in other organizations, does not make it any less applicable to RS. And a lot of the discussion here centers around RS.


Ashy,

I disagree with you too. Not necessarily everyone is "all right"... nor is it a matter or issue of "getting closer to knowing". But then its difficult to ascertain what it actually is that you are referring to.

Who is "getting closer to knowing"?

And "getting closer to "knowing" what?

Do you think that there is something to know, something that others do not yet know?

"we judge from a position of blindness"

-- Who is in this "position of blindness"?

"ultimately nothing will be found outside of your center"

-- And where is this "center"?

"egocentric wrangling about right and wrong, spiritual or mundane"

-- Who here is "wrangeling about right and wrong"? Just look at yourself.

"will [...] get no one anywhere further than they are already"

-- And just where is there to "get" to?

"It is so simple its almost mind blowing"

-- What is "so simple"? If you are going to say that "it" is "so simple", then you really ought to indicate what "it" is. Otherwise, you're meaningless. Don't expect people to read your mind. If you wish to say something, then say it more clearly.


tao, there is really no point in reading your posts because you seem to knock everything a person says in a very aggressive way and then you tout jnana as if it is the be all and end all of everything. How do you know that?

I didn't say that spiritual experiences cannot happen in mundane ordinary activities. In fact i said the opposite.

If you are going to dismiss the spiritual experiences i mentioned (and i didn't mention others so there was nothing i did wrong there!) that is your call but you are mistaken. So what if they are perceptual phenomena? The eyes you are using to read these words are perceptual phenomena and your response to these words is perceptual phenomena. You don't get one up on me or anybody else simply by pointing that out. And your one-upmanship is clearly a psychological disorder of some kind.

I've seen you bash almost everybody that writes here. You can't expect people to take you seriously if you curse and swear. (although it would be funny reading a spiritual book of jnana where every other word contained was "bullshit").

People generally earn respect in this world but you piss in people's faces and seem to expect them to acknowledge your spiritual brand of choice thereafter. It doesn't work that way.

"what way is "is" and how doesn't "it" work that "way"?" and so on, garbage ad infinitum. A dissection of words with the obvious intent to plug jnana.

Let me put it this way: you say that perceptual phenomena are transitory so i infer you mean they are somehow meaningless, and i simply do not agree with you. Your opinion is yours and my opinion is mine and never the twain shall they meet.

David,

I don't "tout" any such thing. And I don't claim to know anything.

"So what if they are perceptual phenomena? The eyes you are using to read these words are perceptual phenomena and your response to these words is perceptual phenomena."

-- Perceptions are transitory, thats what. And apparently you have a different definition of "spiritual experiences" than I do.

"You don't get one up on me or anybody else"

-- I did not imply any such "one up" or "one-upmanship". And your mistaken interpretation of that indicates that you are the one with some "psychological disorder of some kind".

"You can't expect people to take you seriously if you curse and swear."

-- Thats merely your own limited opinion. Others don't necessarily see it that way.

Btw, you seem to have some odd fixation or reaction to the term "jnana". Is that something you have a charge about?

Also, I am not looking for any such "respect"... in fact, I could not care less about your so-called "respect". And to you, if I seem to "piss in people's faces", then that's something you'll have to sort out yourself. But then maybe life will do it for you.

I also don't "expect" anyone "to acknowledge [my] spiritual brand of choice". I don't do "brands". And you don't seem to have any clue where I am at (or not at) anyway.

"A dissection of words with the obvious intent to plug jnana."

-- You really do not have any clue. And clearly, you do have some kind of big hang-up about "jnana"... which I don't at all. Its just a word. You obviously have some problem with that David. You really need to grow-up dude... philosophically speaking.

"Let me put it this way: you say that perceptual phenomena are transitory so i infer you mean they are somehow meaningless"

-- No. Transitory simply means transitory. I did not say "meaningless", so don't try to put words in my mouth.

"i simply do not agree with you."

-- In other words, you don't agree with somehing that I did not say. You are putting words in my mouth, and then disagreeing with them. That is disingenuous bullshit. Go pick a fight with someone where you have something legitimate to argue about. I am not interested in your pointless game.

"Your opinion is yours and my opinion is mine and never the twain shall they meet."

-- Pretty damn hard-headed aren't you? Brian was right about you. Later for you dude.

That is why i said i "infer" you meant meaningless, because that is the implication behind your comments on the transitoriness of those phenomena. IF that isn't the implication behind what you said, what were you trying to get at exactly? Simply saying those phenomena are transitory is like saying precisely nothing. Just hot air. You should have instead at least mentioned something about the relative worth of those phenomena but your style seems blatantly dismissive.

Yes i do have a "hang up" with jnana yoga teachings because they say that it is possible to experience something absolute ie the subject becomes aware of themself and only themself. But how can an experience contain no object when all experiences are based on perception, which denotes a suject AND an object?

Brian wasn't right about me. He was totally wrong. And he deleted a whole new thread presumably because he wasn't comfortable with what i said when i pointed out that his lack of spiritual experience in meditation is inadequate and doesn't explain how other people have spiritual experiences in meditation and have done since the beginning of time.

David, speak the truth. I deleted nothing. The only comments I ever delete are spam and duplicates (when people publish the same comment twice).

You should make sure that your facts are straight before you spread lies. Notice that I've left your erroneous comment about me up and simply corrected your untruth.

Why don't you try criticizing a religious organization of East or West on their blog and see how open-minded believers are compared to churchless folks like me?

Oh, I forgot -- you can't. Because the faithful don't like criticism or open discussion. You should feel grateful that you're able to take advantage of this forum rather than spreading crap about me deleting comments.

David,

You seem to be looking for an argument. And you are still nit-picking my use of the term "transitory". And in that respect, you are still attempting to twist my meaning.

You said: "i said i "infer" you meant meaningless, because that is the implication behind your comments on the transitoriness of those phenomena. IF that isn't the implication behind what you said, what were you trying to get at exactly? Simply saying those phenomena are transitory is like saying precisely nothing."

Transitory simply means transitory, or ephemeral. It doesn't indicate "meaningless" at all. That is your idea, not mine. Perceptual phenomena are transitory, but that does not mean that it is meaningless. Meaning can be derived from many things, and depends on the individual. What is meaninless to you, may be meaningful to someone else, and vice versa. When I said transitory, thats what I meant.

For instance, you can call OBEs and psychic experiences "spiritual" if you want to. But I don't regard or define transitory perceptual phenomena such as you mentioned, to be spiritual from my point of view, understanding, and experience. I myself have had a great deal of such kinds of extraordinary or mystical perceptions and experiences, but since they are all temporary and transitory, I do not regard them as being "spiritual". From my point of view, spiritual relates to spirit, ie: not in the transitory and impermanent domain of the physical/material or of the mental/mind; not of the realm of impermanence, change, or birth & death; that which is not transitory - and which is also defined as that which is 'real' or permanent.

So in my view and definition, the "spiritual" is that which is not transitory or impermanent. And contrary to your mistaken interpretation, "transitory" had nothing to do with "meaningless" in my comments. As I said before, meaning can be derived from many things, including transitory phenomena. Every phenomena throughout life is transitory. But that does not make all such transitory perceptions and experiences and phenomena "meaningless".

To gain a better understanding of what "meaning" actually is, I would suggest that you read "Man's Search for Meaning", by Dr. Viktor Frankl.

"You should have instead at least mentioned something about the relative worth of those phenomena but your style seems blatantly dismissive."

-- On the contrary, I wrote very plainly and to the point. The problem is that you did not take what I said at face value. You have attempted to put a spin on it, to create a straw-man, and then use that false inference to then criticise me. That is disingenuous and wrong. You obviously want to use your own distorted interpretations to pick a fight with me.

And you also did more or less the same thing with my use of the term "jnana". Its not my problem if you have a hang-up or charge relative to the term "jnana".

You said: "Yes i do have a "hang up" with jnana yoga teachings because they say that it is possible to experience something absolute ie the subject becomes aware of themself and only themself."

-- That is not at all what the term "jnana" refers to, nor do the teachings of so-called jnana yoga say "that it is possible to experience something absolute ie the subject becomes aware of themself and only themself".

That is an extremely mistaken, erroneous, and distorted interpretation, which has nothing to do with jnana, atma-vichara, jnana samadhi, yoga, or with dvaita or advaita vedanta.

"But how can an experience contain no object when all experiences are based on perception, which denotes a suject AND an object?"

-- Brahm-jnana or atma-jnana (self-knowledge) is not an sensory "experience" nor a subect-object "perception" or orientation.

"Brian wasn't right about me. [...] with what i said when i pointed out that his lack of spiritual experience in meditation is inadequate and doesn't explain how other people have spiritual experiences in meditation and have done since the beginning of time."

-- Brian never denied that other people may or do have meditation experiences. Many people throughout history have had mystical or supernormal experiences, and that is undeniable.

The real questions are:

a.) The RS doctrine is based upon meditation experiences - so if experiences are not forthcoming after 30 years, then the doctrine and practice deserves serious questioning;

b.) Merely having some so-called inner experiences (light and sounds and visions) in meditation does not equate with the stated goal of RS shabd-yoga, which ukltimately is transcendental god-realzation, liberation, or enlightenment. There is no evidence of that in any practioners, even after engaging in years of Santmat meditation.

Perhaps Ashy will challenge himself in a mind blowing so succintly simple fashion from the centre of his ego-centric wrangling self. Firstly all are right, but then next he says how wrong most are; Brian is in his unknowingness; there is 'perhaps'frustration with the audacity of blindness (of his respondents); apparently a false notion has been given that is tempting to challenge but should rather not be (note that Ashy has been doing some challenging and not of himself); people are full of ego-centric wrangling; he assumes that what is being discussed here will get no-one any further and then he suggests that because nothing has been 'found'that people can't be coming from their 'centre'. So all together misunderstanding, judgement, authoritarianism, abstraction, and a budding love for alliteration.

Shin,

Glad you're here Bro... and I hope you hang around from time to time.

Btw, our new arrival Ashy wouldn't be one of those uhh vengeful satsangi relatives of yours? *just kidding* ;^}

tao, i respect your reply this time as "my" interpretation of it is that it wasn't agressive. No need to comment on that further.

You said that jnana had nothing to do with the things i mentioned as if jnana was some monolithic construct, which it clearly isn't as you can see from writings such as Swami Vivekananda. He talks about the subject-object relationship and how all objects disappear as the subject merges into the Self. I beg to differ (again) that the examples i gave on jnana indicate a lack of understanding of jnana. I don't think there is any point in belabouring this point and taking it further.

Since you yourself said you have had many spiritual experiences of transitory phenomena such as OBEs, it surprises me that you wouldn't relate that to Brian's lack of experiences in meditation. That is simply just my observation and is not intended in any way to be condesending.

The best approach here is to ask questions. So, have you ever told Brian that these spiritual experiences do indeed exist? If not, why not?

Brian, i'm not spreading lies at all. Did you or did you not write another blog which you removed? And why did you remove it? All i said was, "and he deleted a whole knew thread PRESUMABLY BECAUSE.." That is, i presume you deleted that thread for the reasons i gave though that doesn't make those reasons correct. The qualifier in that sentence was "presumably". Make no mistake about it, i am being extra careful with my words here to avoid being misunderstood, which seems to have happened already anyway.

Now, if you want my opinion, i believe that YOU ARE LYING. You did create another thread which had 10 posts comments to its name before i started writing there. When you speak about religions having a bad time with dissenting views and then go on to say people like me should be grateful for a website and blog like this one, it sounds like a veiled threat.

Perhaps a better question would be, "what happened to that thread?" Did you move it? Where is it now?

Of course it is easy to accuse me of lying here because you control this website and can delete the evidence. However, Shin had commented in that thread so unless Shin is a troll and puppet, i have a witness to verify my claims. And you can hardly suppress that.

To take up what you said about religions being intolerant, i have nothing to disagree with there.

Tao, the 2 points you mentioned deserve recognition. My question about point (1) is, do people joining the RSS cult expect to get spiritual experiences handed to them by proxy? Doesn't the RSS literature state quite clearly that not everybody sees light or hears sounds at initiation? Doesn't it further say that not all people go on to have those experiences even after initiation for quite some time? I would say that if the gurus of RSS are supposed to have the actual power to transmit those experiences at initiations then it shouldn't matter about any karmic disposition of the student. Furthermore, this RSS literature also states that people coming to RSS are "marked souls". So the concept that karma has anything to do with having a spiritual experience at initiation makes even less sense. From what i have read though i believe Charan Singh said that even people assosiated with RSS are not all marked souls. So it is definitely a confusing situation all this stuff.

Promises, promises, and failing to deliver the goods. Sure enough, people like Brian are quite right to question their lack of spiritual experiences after being associated with RSS for such a long time. Personally if it was me, i would have given up the meditation racket way before 30 years had elapsed. It is astonishing to me that someone can meditate for such a long time and have no experiences but still cling to the RSS cult. I would have left as soon as Charan Singh died because apparently he was the person dishing out those spiritual experiences. He obviously had no such ability in the first place.

Dear David,
I dont know anything about Brian deleting blogs but I would consider that TypePad is the possible cause of this problem.
Best regards
Obed

Some of my comments didn't go through. I later determined that I forgot to type in the Spam protect code letters and numbers. My oversight.

How long is this "spiritual experience" bullshit going to continue? Any other topics, to end the week with?

I really enjoyed the nutrition discussion, from last week.

Roger

tAo,Brain & Others,

I will look in periodically and let you now how i am doing. I will also keep an eye out on friends & relatives who may wish to 'Dip their toes in' and rightly question. Just like they you would question anything else in life....there is no point supressing those very real feelings.

take care,
Shin

David, I repeat, with some irritation: I didn't delete any comments or any blog post. If you don't know how to post a comment, that isn't my fault. Like someone said above, you need to put in the "CAPCHA" code before a comment is posted.

I have to do this myself. I wish that wasn't necessary, but when I've removed the CAPCHA requirement I get hundreds (literally) of spam comments showing up in this blog's spam folder. Then I have to delete them. Plus, a few will get through and actually appear online.

Hope you aren't irritated with my irritation. I just am bothered by your unwillingness to consider that you're wrong, and I'm right. Of course, I also have to consider the slight possibility that I also could be wrong.

However, since I've never consciously deleted comments other than spam or duplicates -- which does include a few instances of "religious spam" (lengthy quotes or preachings totally unrelated to the post they were attached to) -- I find it very difficult to imagine that I did that this time.

So you should seriously consider that you're mistaken. I have no memory of deleting any comments recently, or close to recently. And it appears that no one other than you has such a memory either. Thus the problem seems much more likely to reside within you, rather than in reality.

Lastly, I agree with Roger about the "spiritual experience" bullshit. Is this supposed to be a competition, "my spiritual experience is bigger than yours"?

OK, I'll play. When I go for one of my moonlit dog walks around a nearby lake on a clear cold Oregon night, and owls perched on the top of tall fir trees are hooting to each other across what otherwise is serene silence, I have a profound spiritual experience -- that the cosmos is absolutely fine just as it is... Mystery.

So there, match that! Oh, except you'll probably say that the only genuine spiritual experiences are those in closed-eyed meditation, following exactly a certain supposedly mystical practice. Thus my own mystical experiences don't count.

To answer your question tAo, not quite sure which Clan Ashy originates from....but i would say he/she has probably got more to think about since 'dipping those toes'!

I would also just like to add one final point.

Think logically...is that logical....before you decide on anything, did you use logic!

Long live the word 'Logic'....used so many times by so called masters, preachers, followers....but put into practice by so so few!

I am here because of my logic and when it does not 'fit', it is not logical!

Shin

David, a P.S: TypePad (which hosts my blogs) sends me an email whenever a comment is posted. I delete those after I've read them, but they're all still in my Trash folder. If you tell me the day you posted some comments that supposedly were deleted, I can look for them in that folder and see if they actually were posted.

Like I said, I'm open to the possibility that they got deleted inadvertently. I'm just certain that I didn't do this on purpose.

David and all, well, I was right. And David was also partially right, in that some comments on this post left on March 17 and earlier are missing. I found them as published in the TypePad comments file, but obviously they aren't.

I tried republishing them, but they still don't show up. So I'll put in a TypePad help ticket. Hopefully they'll reappear soon. These glitches happen -- no blog service is perfect.

A lesson here, David, is not to jump to conclusions. You should have simply said, "some comments seem to be missing." That's what you knew, but you went beyond that and attacked me for deleting them.

Not surprisingly, I focused on your unfounded charge that I'd deleted them, since i knew I hadn't. Yes, I guess I should have realized that you could be wrong about that but right about the comments missing. So we're both at fault.

Things would have gone more smoothly if you'd simply said, "Hey, Brian, can you check on some comments I left that aren't there any more? We seem to have a problem." Instead, you went into a big rant about how I don't like criticism and such.

Good lesson for us all here. Stick to what is evident and don't jump to unfounded conclusions. This was a computer software problem, not a moral problem.

[addendum: in describing the problem to TypePad support via a help ticket, I realized that the fifty missing comments range from March 17 to March 13, when the post was published. Almost certainly not coincidentally, March 13 is when TypePad announced "improvements" to its commenting feature. One of the changes probably caused the comments to disappear.]

All of the comments on this post seem to be back now. Looks like there was a lag between when I republished them and when they showed up, perhaps because fifty comments take longer to be published than a single comment.

I haven't noticed any missing comments on other posts. Hopefully the TypePad glitch was limited to this post.

David said,

" Let's not debate anything about mundane experiences ".

VERY GOOD THEN !! LETS DEBATE ABOUT MEDITATIONAL EXPERIENCES !!

david, you see sant mat is not a science.

In science you must know the results of an experiment. You analysis and discuss the experiment and the results. And that's how you learn.

Sant Mat does not allow the discussion of any experiences (how convenient i might add). Therefore there is nothing to study and nothing to learn from sant mat. Just faith based on dogma with no substantiation whatsoever.

It's all just pretending.

"Bennoon: Forgive me, Master. But your logic confounds me with its illogicality.
MIRDAD:No wonder, Bennoon, you have been called 'the judge'.You would insist upon the logic of the case before you can decide it. Have you been judge so long and have not yet found out that the only use of Logic is to rid Man of Logic and lead him to Faith which leads to Understanding?
Logic is immaturity weaving its nets of gossamer wherewith it aims to catch the behemoth of knowledge. When logic comes of age it strangles itself in its nets and then becomes transmuted into Faith, which is the deeper knowledge.
Logic is a crutch for the cripple; but a burden for the swift of foot;and a greater burden still for the winged."

About the "Book of Mirdad on Logic" comment...

"it is a Tale Told by an Idiot, Full of Sound and Fury, Signifying Nothing"

-- from William Shakespeare's Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5


David,

"You said that jnana [...] as if jnana was some monolithic construct, which it clearly isn't"

-- No, I did not imply that. Jnana is simply direct knowledge, not intellectual or conceptual knowledge.

"from writings such as Swami Vivekananda. He talks about the subject-object relationship and how all objects disappear as the subject merges into the Self."

-- Those are merely words and ideas that attempt to describe something that is non-dual, but framed in a dualistic concept. In reality there is no "merges into the Self". There is no "subject" that is ever apart from the Self that "merges". Jnana is simply the awareness of, or direct knowledge of, this non-duality.

"I beg to differ [...] I don't think there is any point in belabouring this point and taking it further."

-- You can argue about the concept of "jnana" all day, but jnana is simply direct non-conceptual knowledge, Self-knowledge. You either understand that, or you don't. And to truly understand that, one must abide in the actual state of jnana. So all debates about jnana are in fact pointless and useless.

"Since you yourself said you have had many spiritual experiences of transitory phenomena such as OBEs, it surprises me that you wouldn't relate that to Brian's lack of experiences in meditation."

-- To clarify... I did not say that I had "OBEs". And the experiences I have had are difficult to relate and are of no use to Brian anyway.

"So, have you ever told Brian that these spiritual experiences do indeed exist? If not, why not?"

-- Brian is well aware that other people do have what you describe as "spiritual experiences" and altered states, either in meditation or otherwise. So I am sure Brian is aware that these experiences do "exist". I also do not need to relate my own personal experiences (most of which happened outside of formal meditation) to Brian, or vice-versa.

"Tao, My question about point (1) is, do people joining the RSS cult expect to get spiritual experiences handed to them by proxy?"

-- David, fyi, here is what I said:

"The RS doctrine is based upon meditation experiences - so if experiences are not forthcoming after 30 years, then the doctrine and practice deserves serious questioning"

I said "after 30 years" (of diligent meditation)... I did not say or imply that anyone should "get spiritual experiences handed to them by proxy"

"Doesn't the RSS literature state quite clearly that not everybody sees light or hears sounds at initiation? Doesn't it further say that not all people go on to have those experiences even after initiation for quite some time?"

-- Yes, but that does not exempt it from questioning.

"I would say that if the gurus of RSS are supposed to have the actual power to transmit those experiences at initiations"

-- I have never heard any such thing (ie: "the actual power to transmit those experiences at initiations"). I was never given that expectation, and I doubt that Brian had that expectation either.

"Furthermore, this RSS literature also states that people coming to RSS are "marked souls"."

-- Yes, RS says that... but that idea is merely propaganda and myth. It is conjecture and cannot be proven.

"So it is definitely a confusing situation all this stuff."

-- It is confusing, but more importantly, it is basically abstraction, theology, belief in supernaturalism, and myth masquerading as fact and science.

"it was me, i would have given up the meditation racket way before 30 years had elapsed. It is astonishing to me that someone can meditate for such a long time and have no experiences"

-- That IS the point.

"I would have left as soon as Charan Singh died because apparently he was the person dishing out those spiritual experiences."

-- No, that is not quite what RS doctine says. Maybe you think or belive that is the case, but I never ever held any such notion - namely that Charan (or any RS master) "was the person dishing out those spiritual experiences". But yes, they tend to say that mediation experiences are the "grace of the guru". But that too is just another way to manipulate people to have faith in, and surrender towards the guru.

"He [Charan] obviously had no such ability in the first place."

-- I don't know for sure... but I doubt it because the entire idea is a myth, imo.


Brian, you will forgive me for stating my OPINION, as i put it suscintly, that you were lying. I was careful to say it was my opinion and that should be enough to clear away misunderstandings here. As you have pointed out, there was a mistake in the software or what not and i am sorry and i apologise to you for perhaps jumping to the conclusions i did.

Roger, the fact of the matter is this - you didn't really produce anything worthwhile with your questions and then you turn around now and say that there was some kind of defect in my questioning Brian's lack of experience in meditation. There was no defect. You see things that don't exist in reality here. Why don't you bring your platter to the table and tell us all about your experience in meditation so far? It would be completely comprehendable to me and perhaps to other people that your apparent lack of spiritual experience in meditation prompt you to react in the way you have. On the other hand, if you really do possess those experiences then you shouldn't have a problem with what i said.

I have tried to be as plain and simple in my words as it is possible for me to be, and i have tried to point out that Brian's lack of experience with meditation is not a valid reason for concluding that other people do not have genuine spiritual experiences with meditation. I cannot possibly be more explicit than this. If you have a problem with my conclusions on this matter then it reflects your own biases and misinterpretations of what i have said and doesn't reflect truly what I have said.

How fitting! - that people can come here and not give their real name or reveal anything about themselves and then post a sarcastic diatribe about the use of logic and how that logic is somehow inadequate. NEWS FLASH! - logic is not the problem, it wasn't MY problem and the contention that it ever was is your false interpretation of the meanings behind the points and words made.

David, re. the comments...no problem. I should have checked the comment conversation sooner to see if there were any obvious problems. Which, there were.

Regarding experiences in meditation, I don't doubt that people have them. What I keep asking for, though, and rarely getting, are detailed, explicit descriptions of those experiences. How they came about; what was seen, heard, etc; what lasting changes or increased wisdom resulted from the experiences, if any.

I also keep waiting for evidence that any sort of supra-physical knowledge results from the experiences. I still have a dollar bill tucked in a corner of my wallet, after somebody commented that through meditation it was possible to gain ultimate knowledge.

So far he hasn't even been able to tell me the serial numbers on the bill. So much for ultimate knowledge.

David, I still sense a particular tone or attitude or edge to your comments and responses. Are you in a bad mood much of the time?... because it sure feels that way.

Moving ahead...

You said to Roger: "you didn't really produce anything worthwhile with your questions" -- Questions are questions - they are not supposed to produce something. Its the answers that are supposed to produce something. Roger likes to ask questions, and usually because he is seeking clarification or addition info.

You asked Roger: "Why don't you bring your platter to the table and tell us all about your experience in meditation so far?"

-- Well I can't speak about Roger's meditations, but I can tell you that Roger has previously indicated that he is not an initiated practioner of santmat/shabda yoga. So therefore I assume that he has no specific santmat/shabd meditation type of "experiences" to report. So Roger isn't deliberately avoiding sharing his experiences.

"It would be completely comprehendable to me and perhaps to other people that your apparent lack of spiritual experience in meditation prompt you to react in the way you have. On the other hand, if you really do possess those experiences then you shouldn't have a problem with what i said."

-- Again, you seem to be assuming that Roger is a shabda yoga practioner or an RS satsangi. Why can't you just ASK Roger... minus the challenging attitude? It is unnecessary to attack Roger about his meditation experiences or lack thereof. Why are you on Roger's case anyway? Roger is a good man, and he simply asked you some questions.

"i have tried to point out that Brian's lack of experience with meditation is not a valid reason for concluding that other people do not have genuine spiritual experiences with meditation."

-- But you seem to continue missing the very important point that, whether people do or don't have some sort of experiences in their meditations, it does not validate the over-all premise or the supposed goal of the RS teaching and path. Some people say that they do have experiences, and Brian has never denied that.

But so what if they have "experiences"? Please tell us, what does that mean to you? Lets get to the crux of this. Why is it so important to you that some people say they have experiences? Even if they do (have experiences), of what ultimate consequence is that? Do you think that having experiences in meditation has some great significance? Do you think that just having experiences equates to achieving the goal of santmat? I am asking you these questions simply to find out and understand what exactly your premises are. If you would explain your own views, instead of attacking others for asking questions, then we might get somewhere with this discussion.

"If you have a problem with my conclusions on this matter"

-- OK... what exactly ARE your conclusions? about meditation, about so-called experiences, about the core premises of santmat, etc.

"then it reflects your own biases and misinterpretations of what i have said and doesn't reflect truly what I have said."

-- Thats basically what I said to you.

"people can come here and not give their real name or reveal anything about themselves and then post a sarcastic diatribe about the use of logic and how that logic is somehow inadequate."

-- What "diatribe" are you referring to? I honestly did not see that. Could you indicate what you are referring to? You aren't referring to that quote from "Mirdad" that someone posted are you?

"logic is not the problem"

-- You are correct, I do agree with that.

Tao,

Thanks for the kind words. Best wishes to you.

To the Regulars,
Not that it is important, however, what is the big deal with a lack or abundance of meditation and spiritual experiences?

If these experiences are important, then, could someone explain, in their own words, why? What special situation is obtained by having such experiences? Not that there is something wrong or right, regarding such.

In addition, the mechanism, as to how an experience is translated to the brain. Are these experiences conceptual mental activity, nonconceptual, or a mix?

Best wishes,
Roger

Brian,

The contention that people become omniscient by meditating is obviously false in my opinion. I don't see many people walking about with omniscience! They might hint at it and claim to possess it that way but it is a sham.

It's good to hear you don't dispute that other people have spiritual experiences within meditation. So i take back everything i said before.

I truly do believe that life is a mystery and there is an intelligence behind it that we cannot fathom with our minds. Whatever that intelligence is it must have at least some kind of omniscient quality. But that doesn't mean that a human being can know the same thing. And so i reject claims made by gurus where they say that omniscience can be aquired.

Swami Vivekananda said something to the effect that through yoga a man can become ALMOST omniscient. I think his words give the game away. At least he was honest though, unlike a lot of other gurus.

Kirpal Singh seems to have been one of those that claimed omniscience. If you have ever read his book where he compares all the yogas with sant mat it is clear to me that his knowledge is great but unsatisfactory in certain respects. For example, he said that Ramakrishnas bhakti approach was limited because Ramakrishna couldn't get past duality, and that this is the characteristic of bhakti yoga and therefore Sant Mat is superior. However, he failed to mention that Ramakrishna did indeed get past duality when he described his experience of slashing the Divine Mother in two. So we can see very clearly from this example that Kirpal Singh had an agenda.

What i would say about RSS meditation is that it is a very good way because it cuts to the chase and avoids a lot of other useless diversions and practices. Having the body go numb is actually sleep paralysis and that state is conducive to OBEs. But the mystery of life here appears to be that not everyone will have an OBE, and i can see no reason to it.

Tao, i cannot respond to your lengthy response because it is time consuming and i am pretty stupid. The only thing that seems obvious to me is that if there is an afterlife, that is the most precious information a human being can know of. There might be people such as yourself that transcend these phenomenal experiences but to me and most of humanity the existence of an afterlife would seem paramount.

David,
I hardly think that you're "pretty stupid".

You said to me: "if there is an afterlife, that is the most precious information a human being can know of."

-- Well you see, that IS the question. But spiritual experiences and obes via meditation do not verify that there is any afterlife. Simply because you're not dead yet... and no one has ever come back after being really and truly dead, to tell the answer.

You also said to me: "There might be people such as yourself that transcend these phenomenal experiences but to me and most of humanity the existence of an afterlife would seem paramount."

-- Whether or not I "transcend phenomenal experiences" is irrelevant. These experiences simply do not prove "the existence of an afterlife".

This is something that so many people on various spiritual paths seem to miss and fail to see and understand. Just because you have supposed Obe experiences, psychic experiences, yogic expewriences, mystical experiences, visionary experiences, or whatever... does not prove the existence of any afterlife. So you can have all sorts of experiences, but all such experiences are while you are still alive and your brain is still functioning. They don't happen (or at least we do not know if they happen) after you are truly 100 percent dead. So what is the point in belaboring this issue? There is no proof, because if there realy was conclusive proof, it would be headline news.


There are some pretty convincing proofs from NDE research. Not evidence but at least something towards proof. Or is it the other way around?

I think it's true though that nobody knows because nobody has come back from being fully dead to tell us. There are some supposed materialisation mediums but i find that kind of thing unconvincing.

More promising to me are the psychics because they seem to be able to pick up information that they couldn't possibly ordinarily know. I am certain that psychic ability does exist even though 99% of psychics are fraudulent. So the question here becomes, how are they picking up that information? Is it some kind of brain function or unconscious data processing? That is the most likely alternative explanation.

I think the important point to make here is that when people get spontaneous spiritual experiences they seem to come from nowhere and are not the product of the will or desire of the person that has them. This for me raises many points about that msterious thing we call "God".

And i cannot help but note that in physics is says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so when we die where does the energy go? There is clearly a difference between a dead body and a living body even though we haven't discovered what it is yet.

But the reason for me why all this is important is because i have a huge fear of death and i don't know how to relieve that fear. I so much want that issue to be resolved and i can't see any other way than by meditating to try to discover it.

"But the reason for me why all this is important is because i have a huge fear of death and i don't know how to relieve that fear. I so much want that issue to be resolved and i can't see any other way than by meditating to try to discover it."

---Very revealing statement. Seeking a spiritual experience thru meditation, based on a genuine(huge)fear of death. Nothing wrong with being honest.

Revealing in what way?

Do you have no fear of death yourself? If so, why?

David,

Perhaps revealing in the sense that it helps explain your strong adherence to a belief system. You're not alone in your fear of death. Have you seen this comment thread? See what you discover there..

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2006/02/death_and_the_p.html

Interesting topics for discussion:

What is a spirtual experience? A non-conceptual, non-mental activity?

If so, then what would be the mechanism, as to how this (nc,nm) activity would be transmitted to a conceptual mental activity, with the goal of "reducing" a genuine conceptual fear of death?

Does this mean, the seeker, goes thru training, practice sessions, daily or weekly monitoring of progress meetings?

If this process works, just think of the countless fears, One can reduce. A reduced realm of fear, is this what One's purpose is?

Roger

Dear David,
You are a brave courageous person.I want to give you a strong virtual hug.
I have no magic pill for your fear of death.But admitting it and talking about it surely is a sensible approach.Perhaps time and age will bring
you peace and acceptance of this most certain of certainties.
I really hope you will continue to post here
Love
Obed

Hi Obed. I will post so long as my life energy doesn't retire! Who knows when that will be. Thank you for your comments.

I have thought i have been close to death in the past, went to the hospital to get checked and turned out there was nothing wrong with me etc. So i already know what acceptance of death is like to a certain extent. But death is not a problem to me - i fear pain more than death. I have been having aches and pains in my body that don't seem to want to go away and i have been feeling depressed. I cannot reconcile these things with a loving creator God, and yet there are many things in life that cannot refute the existence of anomalous experiences. I simply do not know anything about these things, and i am pained by that. I wish it didn't have to be like a conspiracy.

David,

I agree with Obed and hope you continue to comment here, surely its good to have a variety of opinions?

Maybe fear of the unknown and death could be a strong impetus to keep on seeking to find the truth? Face our fears and we become stronger and btw I face my fear every time I post a comment here :)

Dear David,
This answer you may very well like to file away as B.S.
When I feel pain I feel it is the underlying reality or if you like god which is expressing its
own deep pain through me.By me accepting and facing this pain I feel I am helping this reality to come to terms with its pain.I suppose it is away of dissociating from the pain and seeing it in a positive light.
In a side I see a great tension in an underlying reality which though may be a power of love it has
within it a terrible angst which by necessity it
expresses through us and the universe in which we live.By trying to endure and overcome the sometimes
incredible horrors of life I feel I am helping this underlying reality and at the same time help myself and others in this world.We are all connected and those people of goodness and strength
who endure allow for this strength to flow to all of us who may be in pain and suffer.
I hope this may be of some help to you.

Kind regards
Obed

Dear All who may read my last post,
What I wrote is a psycological model that I came up
with in order to have some way of coping with pain and grief.It is not meant to be anything more than that.

Hi ,

Let me say what i have to say with out beating around the bush , There is light and sound you can hear within the center of the two eyes or the third eye (between the 2 eye brows) .

When you finally calm you mind down and eliminate your desires and raise your awareness behind the eyes (the place where your thoughts generate , your mind ) . Light does appear and with further practice sound is heard .

To go even further , these same sounds are present even when you have angry moments , happy moments and other emotions . with further practice you will be able to hear the sounds even when you do have the emotions ...

Now , the problem is getting to the point where these light and sound energies exist. No easy task , from complete blackness to denial to more denail then finally a glimps of a tiny dot of light for 2 a sec appears ...

That one dot of light energies you and you try harder meditating , but the light does not appear again you think it was just your mind playing tricks , you give up and then enter again because you did see a dot of light .

This is the process many of us have been through and are still going through . Even see light and hearing the sound everytime we close our eyes , but we want more we want to be one with our creater our father GOD ...

I am not a Radha Soami but there teachings have truth in them . I am a Sikh , but the teachings of Radha soami helped me understand the sikh scripture better . I feel more relaxed and still do the Jap ji sahib but i have added meditaton to the process because it energies the soul ....

I am amazed at the sheer ignorance of so many of the criticisms on this blog-site about the philosophy of Sant Mat taught by RadhaSoami Satsang Beas. One particularly arrogant idiot wrote a very long essay on this site full of criticisms including what he sees as a decline in the messages given by the the present Guru Gurinder Singh Ji - he refers to it as Sant Mat 2.0 as though this is some software which will undergo evolution.

Simply put, the Sant Mat philosophy including the satsangs of Baha Gurinder Singh Ji, teach the same eternal teachings of Jesus found in the gospels, which (although few people would agree) are exactly what Socrates taught and what is at the core of ancient Hindu and Sikh teachings as well. Basically that we are living in a lower material/animal/carnal world, and are afflicted with qualities/technologies that are required to enable us to function in this carnal world - namely vanity (especially evident from the essay of the idiot referred to above), greed, lust, anger, and attachment or love for the things of this world. Jesus described this as 'build not your treasure in this world of moth, rust and corruption'...but in the eternal (unseen) world of spirit from which matter descended. Socrates (read Phaedo) said the same things - that we in the carnal world do not know 'true beauty' - which is the soul - and which can only be discovered by training and tuning in with the mind's eye. One of the key teachings of Sant Mat is that we have been living in carnal bodies for aeons....and therefore pulling our minds out of carnality will take all our will, effort, sincerity and persistence. Plus humility - as Jesus put it - whosoever exalts himself will be humbled, and vice versa. I have been going to satsangs and visited the Dera at NO COST several times, and no one has ever obliged me to do any seva or make any financial payment. People who are performing labor over there are not 'serfs' - they are doing it voluntarily and out of love, and humility. Yes they are not all perfect.... but the vast majority of the sevadars in any RSSB location are vastly more humble than the arrogant idiot who thinks salvation is something that should be served up like a dish in a restaurant. No- dumbass - it is the hardest thing of all - and appropriately so - since the objective is to be rid forever of carnal existence and to find the Supreme Being.... so if it means 30 years or 4 lifetimes or more - that is a small price to pay....

One of the reasons intellectual fools like the one I have criticised in this message find fault with Sant Mat is that their so-called intelligence gives them VANITY..... Read ANY SCRIPTURE and it will say vanity must be erased to find God. That is what Babaji and Jesus meant when they said one must become like a child - i.e. rid oneself of the animal 'cunning' that we are so proud of having acquired, to be successful in this world - the so-called 'street smarts'. Street smarts or book learning may be valuable for success in the material/carnal world, but it is a liability in the spiritual quest. As Jesus put it - No man can follow 2 masters - it is either God or money.

That is why simple, uneducated, even illiterate people find this path enchanting - because their hearts are in the right place. It is the meek who will inherit heaven, not the arrogant. When one is primarily interested in finding fault with the Master, or looking for seeming inconsistencies in his message, one is starting off with Vanity, and one is guaranteed to fail. I will just give one example. It is correct that former RSSB Masters said if an initiate faithfully performs the prescribed meditation, salvation will occur inside of 4 lifetimes. And Babaji has said something a little contradictory... Instead of arrogantly attacking Babaji for this seeming inconsistency, one ought perhaps to think a little about why he made it. Too many people take Sant Mat for granted, and constantly complain at Q&A sessions about how meditation is too difficult and so on, and think simply because they are initiated they are already 'saved', to borrow a phrase from Christianity. So what Babaji is trying to tell them is that the guarantee of 4 lifetimes is only if the initiate performs his/her share of the bargain....not otherwise. Thus if the initiate does not perform meditation with utmost sincerity, why should he/she be entitled to a free ride within 4 lifetimes? If they do not perform the meditation in this lifetime, what makes them think they would do so in the next 3 lifetimes..? This is no inconsistency but an explanation of the terms and conditions that the guarantee came with. A simple humble person would understand that. But not an arrogant ass full of himself/herself. Alternatively, even the former Master CharanSingh Ji in one satsang talked about some initiates who were particularly blessed with love, and their love could potentially make even meditation unnecessary. An arrogant person could call this an inconsistency too, and they would again be wrong. Every satsang says the relationship between a soul and God is Love. That is why Jesus' first commandment was "Love thy God with all thy heart and mind and soul'... The purpose of meditation itself is not to hear 'bell sounds' or astral travel, or other visions - they may happen, but the main object is to build that love with God, through the Master/Messiah..... so that the union of the soul with God takes place.

I have used language (idiot, dumbass etc.) that Babaji would neither use nor approve of. But that is because I was offended by the ignorance and arrogance of the people on this site who misinterpret and misrepresent the teachings of Sant Mat, and show an utter lack of gratitude for the gifts given freely by the Masters of RSSB.

Hi Harinder,
why be offended? Do you think the words of the said "idiot" actually hurt anything? Why give them any power at all? IMO, The power of the idiot's words comes from you--who gives them energy by reacting in such an energized way.

"The purpose of meditation itself is not to hear 'bell sounds' or astral travel, or other visions - they may happen, but the main object is to build that love with God, through the Master/Messiah..... so that the union of the soul with God takes place."

---When the "bell sounds" and "astral travelings" do happen, when they actually do happen, is this a non-conceptual non-mental activity?
---This "building of love with God" through meditation, is this a conceptual mental activity? If so, why is meditation any particularly unique method to accomplish such love?
---When God receives this Love, what does he/she do with it? Does God suffer from the lack of love?
---Has anyone ever experienced the "union" of the soul with God? Would love to read more on this event.

Thanks for a reply,
Roger

Rog,

-- Why do you ask so many questions?

-- Do you have any answers?

-- If not, why not?

Best Wishes
George

Harinder, I'm the person who wrote the post you refer to about Sant Mat 2.0. See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2006/01/sant_mat_versio.html

Thank you for coming up with some colorful language to describe myself: "arrogant idiot," "dumbass," "intellectual fool." You reminded me of my self-description on my Twitter page, so we're in agreement on that point. See (on right side):
http://twitter.com/oregonbrian

That said, I re-read the Sant Mat 2.0 post and it sounds fine to me. I guess you disagree that the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, has a different style than his predecessor, Charan Singh. That's fine. What would blogging be without disagreements? We'd have nothing to talk about.

I respect your commitment to Sant Mat 1.0, including a belief that if an initiate meditates for 2.5 hours a day for four lifetimes, salvation is assured. My main question is: how do you know this? How can you be sure that this is true?

Christians assure me that if I believe in Jesus, I'll be saved in this very lifetime. That sounds like a better deal -- especially since I don't have to do all of the meditation. Why should I believe you rather than them? Or you rather than what Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and members of other religions believe?

Lastly, whenever I am insulted by a true believer in some faith, whether it be Sant Mat or some other religion, I think to myself: "Gosh, here I am, churchless, yet I'm not nearly as angry; I don't dismiss other people's ideas to the same degree; I don't call other people names in the same fashion."

Yet supposedly I'm the arrogant one, and the guy insulting me is the humble godly one. That confuses me. But since I'm a fool, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I'm confused so easily.

Dear Harinder,
On the last page of "Legacy of Love".It is written
in Charan Singh's own hand writing the following
"May your love of The Form culminate in the Love of the Formless"
I humbly suggest study these lines very hard.In my
opinion they contain what the teachings of sant mat
are all about.For me they contained a secret that took many years to discover and it required from me the complete abandonment of the traditional
teachings of santmat.

All the best
Obed.

I am pleased to respond as best as I know, Roger, to your questions. Actually if you read my message again, and carefully, I have already answered them. Our minds are part of the software that enables our bodies (the hardware) to function in this creation - by keeping us enthralled with the things of this world - food, sex, movies, sports, tech toys, relating to others - well or poorly, earning a living, etc. etc. etc.

Meditation is the effort to reverse the natural tendency of the mind towards matter. By turning inwards with the help of a Messiah, it slowly gains control over its natural tendency, so that it comes to "know itself' int he true Socratic meaning of 'Know Thyself'. We are not just bodies and minds - our most highest essence is soul. But soul is untraceable in this world without intense meditation. You are using intellectual concepts like conceptual and non-conceptual. Meditation is trying to truly understand who and what we are. Are we just animals or ants busily serving other interests, or is it possible to discover where we came from, how we got here, and how we can get back home...?

This is the purpose of human life, as opposed to the life of non-human creatures -insects, animals, etc.... Now you are trying to get me to answer the deepest questions of life with 2 or 3 superficial questions.... but this is the greatest knowledge and wisdom of all, so why should it come easily? How long did it take you to learn your profession, or get a degree?

Has anyone experienced this union with God? Scripture says yes - but scripture also warns that it comes only to a few - to the most dedicated, sincere and humble. How many people have climbed Mount Everest? Can everyone do it? So the union with God which is incomparably more difficult, is surely something that will not happen easily. But there is one thing we do control - our effort and our sincerity. If we keep that up, sooner or later - and it could be 4 lifetimes even with the best of effort - one's efforts could be granted.

Do you have a guarantee of success in any field of human endeavor? Whether career, marriage, politics or sport - are you sure you can win? The possibility of failure exists in everything we do. But still we do it, don't we? So how is it that people think they will get the ultimate goal of life without serious effort, 'tests', and failures?

Why does God need love? That is God's natural state, Its Highest quality. It is the natural relationship between a soul - which has been described by Persian mystics as a drop of the Ocean that is God - and God. God separated us from Itself (It is Spirit - beyond time and space and therefore neither male nor female - these are conditions of matter) when It created the incomprehensibly vast and unending universes (read cosmology - Harvard and Cambridge scientists are convinced that multiple universes exist and also higher dimensions - 10 or more)..... and all religions in their essence are Sant Mat - leading some of the separated souls (the chosen few) back to God. Why did the Force do this? It could, and did.... Don't you like to use the powers you have been given....

To understand these things, you need humility, dedication, a willingness to loving submit to the guidance of a True Master. As you meditate, if your heart is sincere, things will slowly start to be revealed to you. More than that, you will experience the Master in your life, and invisibly communicate with him, and see how he guides your life. Some of that guidance will be the administration of pain for the settlement of karmic accounts, but some of it will also be protections that you will notice, as long as you are humble.

Those people who write letters to the Dera have not even heard the satsangs. Master Charan Singh Ji said often in his discourses - don't ask for things - God already knows what you need. Ask only for God. And be patient - destiny must be endured as there are reasons for it. But if we keep the faith sooner or later and it may be later than this lifetime, it will be rewarded. This life is like a dream that we will one day awaken from. Doing one's meditation and keeping the faith actually does lighten the load.

Love is the highest thing we have. But the loves we meet in this world are the selfish kind, and the temporal kind. This is one jewel - True and Eternal Love - that God has selfishly kept for Itself. But what's wrong with that? Think of it as the greatest Treasure Hunt in existence.

As for the bell sounds and visions, these are only meant to provide support for meditation - to keep us motivated. But they are not given to everyone because few people meditate sincerely. Master Charan Singh used to say if one is lost in a forest at night, a sound or a light could guide us to other people. Sounds and visions in meditation serve a similar function. But they are not the goal - the goal is to develop the Love.

Hope this helps. Before you post further questions though, please carefully read through and reflect on the 2 messages I have left on this blog.

Best regards.

Harinder,

Thanks for your reply,

A few statements for analysis;

"As for the bell sounds and visions, these are only meant to provide support for meditation - to keep us motivated. But they are not given to everyone because few people meditate sincerely."

---Bell sounds and Visions are meant only for motivational support? This is new information for me. But, what if a "bell" sound is not very motivating? Are other sounds available, for motivation?
---So, out of the tens of thousands of RSSB initiates, only a few meditate sincerely? Are you sure?


"Master Charan Singh used to say if one is lost in a forest at night, a sound or a light could guide us to other people."
---But One can get lost in the forest during the day too. Can Satan create these sounds and visions, and direct One to it too? What would stop Satan from recreating a "bell" like sound? One could get directed in the wrong direction. Just an example, no information on a Satan.


"Meditation is the effort to reverse the natural tendency of the mind towards matter. By turning inwards with the help of a Messiah, it slowly gains control over its natural tendency, so that it comes to "know itself' int he true Socratic meaning of 'Know Thyself'."

---So, this meditation "effort" reverses natural tendencies of the mind towards matter? However, as you stated, only a few meditate sincerely. Therefore, the many, majority of RSSB initiates are locked into these natural tendencies?

Finally, Harinder, do you know which life cycle(possible total of 4), you are currently in? The initiation age requirement of 24, seems odd, for One in their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cycle?

Anyway, thanks for your reply,
Roger

To: Harinder Jadwani

First off, to be quite honest, I am even more amazed at your ignorance regarding the import of the info and criticisms on this blog-site about the philosophy of Sant Mat and about its guru-cult the RSSB.

Furthermore, I am one of those critics that you have referred to as "idiot", "dumbass", and "fool". I also have been well acquainted with RS and the teachings of Sant Mat for many decades, and so are others. So there is no need for you to engage in such lengthy preaching of Sant Mat here. If you disagree with the critics of Sant Mat, then you should present some reasonable and substantial arguements which defeat their criticisms. You have not done that. All you have done so far is to preach RS belief system dogma. You have offered nothing to counter the numerous criticisms that have been leveled against against Sant Mat and the RS organization and feudalistic guru-cult.

Furthermore, I disagree with you on many of your points:

I disagree with your claim that "the Sant Mat philosophy including the satsangs of Baha Gurinder Singh Ji, teach the same eternal teachings of Jesus found in the gospels [...] and what is at the core of ancient Hindu and Sikh teachings as well.".

I disagree with your claim that: "we are living in a lower material/animal/carnal world, and are afflicted"

I disagree with your claim that: "we in the carnal world do not know 'true beauty' - which is the soul"

I disagree with your assertion that: "we have been living in carnal bodies for aeons....and therefore pulling our minds out of carnality will take all our will, effort, sincerity and persistence."

I disagree with your claim that: "the Dera [...] People who are performing labor over there are not 'serfs' - they are doing it voluntarily"

I disagree with your assertion that: "the arrogant idiot who thinks salvation is something that should be served up like a dish in a restaurant."

I disagree with your assertion that: "the objective is to be rid forever of carnal existence and to find the Supreme Being... so if it means 30 years or 4 lifetimes or more - that is a small price to pay."

I disagree with your assertion that: "vanity must be erased to find God."
I disagree with your assertion that: "Jesus meant when they said one must become like a child"

I disagree with your assertion that: "That is why simple, uneducated, even illiterate people find this path enchanting"

I disagree with your assertion that: "It is the meek who will inherit heaven, not the arrogant."

I disagree with your claim that: "one is primarily interested in finding fault with the Master, or looking for seeming inconsistencies in his message"

I disagree with your claim that: "It is correct that [...] if an initiate faithfully performs the prescribed meditation, salvation will occur inside of 4 lifetimes."

I disagree with your assertion that: "what Babaji is trying to tell them is that the guarantee of 4 lifetimes is only if the initiate performs his/her share of the bargain"

I disagree with your assertion that: "Every satsang says the relationship between a soul and God is Love."

I disagree with your assertion that: "The purpose of meditation itself is not to hear 'bell sounds' or astral travel, or other visions - they may happen, but the main object is to build that love with God, through the Master/Messiah."

I disagree with your assertion that: "the union of the soul with God takes place"

I disagree with your assertion that: "the ignorance and arrogance of the people on this site who misinterpret and misrepresent the teachings of Sant Mat"

I disagree with your claim that: "the gifts given freely by the Masters of RSSB"

I disagree with your assertion that: "Our minds [...] keeping us enthralled with the things of this world - food, sex, movies, sports, tech toys, relating to others - well or poorly, earning a living, etc"

I disagree with your assertion that: "Meditation is the effort to reverse the natural tendency of the mind towards matter."

I disagree with your belief that: "by turning inwards with the help of a Messiah it slowly gains control over its natural tendency"

I disagree with your assertion that: "We are not just bodies and minds - our most highest essence is soul."

I disagree with your assertion that: "soul is untraceable in this world without intense meditation"

I disagree with your claim that: "Meditation [specifically sant mat type meditation] is trying to truly understand who and what we are."

I disagree with your assertion that: "to discover where we came from, how we got here, and how we can get back home. [...] This is the purpose of human life"

I disagree with your assumption that: "Has anyone experienced this union with God? [...] yes - but [...] it comes only to a few"

I disagree with your assertion that: "So the union with God which is incomparably more difficult, is surely something that will not happen easily."

I disagree with your assertion that: "there is one thing we do control"

I disagree with your assertion that: "God separated us from Itself [...] when It created the incomprehensibly vast and unending universes"

I disagree with your claim that: "all religions in their essence are Sant Mat - leading some of the separated souls (the chosen few) back to God."

I absolutely disagree with your assertion that: "To understand these things, you need humility, dedication, a willingness to loving submit to the guidance of a True Master."

I disagree with your assertion that: "you will experience the Master in your life, and invisibly communicate with him, and see how he guides your life."

I disagree with your belief that: "that guidance will be the administration of pain for the settlement of karmic accounts, but some of it will also be protections"

I disagree with your assertion that: "don't ask for things - God already knows what you need. Ask only for God."

I disagree with your assertion that: "destiny must be endured as there are reasons for it."

I disagree with your claim that: "if we keep the faith sooner or later and it may be later than this lifetime, it will be rewarded."

I disagree with your assertion that: "Doing one's meditation and keeping the faith actually does lighten the load."

I disagree with your assertion that: "True and Eternal Love - that God has selfishly kept for Itself."

I deeply disagree with your assertion that: "the bell sounds and visions, these are only meant to provide support for meditation - to keep us motivated."

I disagree with your assertion that: "not given to everyone because few people meditate sincerely."

And finally, I much disagree with your assertion that: "Sounds and visions in meditation serve a similar function. [...] they are not the goal - the goal is to develop the Love."


In conclusion, it is fairly obvious to see as shown by all of Mr Harinder Jadwani's claims and assertions and beliefs, that he really has nothing of any substance to offer (to disprove the critics and their criticisms of RS that he describes as "idiot" and "fool"), other than his parroting of more and more Sant Mat religious doctine, dogma and blind faith in a supposed messiah.

Harinder Jadwani, you need to wake up to reality and look at the facts. And fyi, the best case against Sant Mat dogma and RS guru-cultism is actually people like YOU Harinder. You do a far better job at revealing much about what is wrong with the RS cult, than many dozens of critics and heaps of criticism could ever do.

As Brian so rightly said:

"Why should I believe you rather than them?

"I'm not nearly as angry; I don't dismiss other people's ideas to the same degree; I don't call other people names in the same fashion"

"yet supposedly I'm the arrogant one, and the guy insulting me is the humble godly one".

-- So Harinder, what's it to you if I am critical of Sant Mat and the RS cult? What's it to you if I don't agree with your dogma? What's it to you if I don't believe in your pseudo mysticism and "Messiah" worship? What's it to you if other people don't believe what you believe?

It seems to me that it is YOU who isthe "idiot", that YOU who is the "dumbass", and that YOU who is the narrow-minded "fool"... and not people like Brian or myself or others who have excercised intelligent, rational, sober, and critical thinking, rather than blind submission to some authoritarian guru-cult.

tAo,

confucious say:

When 1st person call you asshole he/she probably wrong.
When 2nd person call you asshole it probably coincidence.
But when everyone call you asshole it time to blow nose and check for skidmark.

You lambaste poor Harinder by saying: "If you disagree with the critics of Sant Mat, then you should present some reasonable and substantial arguements which defeat their criticisms..." - shortly before listing a page of your unsubstantiated disagreements.

Are you in fact a 'hypocrytitical asshole'?

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